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Doctor Shaft
06-11-2002, 11:12 AM
Well, I've decided to start posting some more to see if I can get more people to discuss the saber system, and the ghoul2 system settings as well. No, I'm not making a mod or a patch, and as silly as it is seems, if I can influence the community to eventually make adjustments, or whoever ends up adjusting the game, then I'll willingly waste your time here on the boards. To start though, I'm going to be terribly reduntant and copy something i wrote a few hours ago. That post was in a thread that I feel isn't really going to be read much anymore, so I'll try my luck and get everyone to hate me, or simply ignore me, in this thread. It's long and tedious, so good luck.

It's good to finally read some posts that are in line with what I've been thinking all this time. I personally would like to see more threads that just constructively discuss some of the current existing game issues. Granted, it seems like the community will have to do the patching to change anything most likely, but it's better if people start talking now rather than find out months later that all hope for an official patch is lost. Here's some thoughts I had on 1.03.

I've tried the ghoul2 with sabertracefirst at 0, to get less blocking. I thought the change of play was for the better. Granted, more tweaking based on saber damage, etc., would be needed, but the way things played out felt slightly different. My experience has been that with everything at standard defaults, many of the swings and maneuvers are useless. The blocking was too high, rendering light and medium useless unless another person was swinging at the same time, and you hit an open spot. Basically, heavy stance was the only reliable stance. It basically broke through defenses constantly and even though start up was slow, parrying against it was minimal, if not almost non-existant. I would usually use the strafe right swing all the time. Basically, I found myself playing JK1 again, being able to just use either that move or the backsweep to affectiveness. With ghoul2, parries are more frequent, the heavy stance gets knocked around alot of it you get beat to the punch, and the blocking decrease causes players to be more strategic, to a certain degree. I don't want to play it up as miraculous, but the game play is dramatically improved in that sense. I actually found a reason to use medium stance, because it didn't get blocked all the time at close range.

Some people have commented that ghoul2 with blocking at one is better. I think that while it's fun, it ultimately ruins the game in the long term. Now, before I go on, let's clear up what I mean ruined. I know there are people who enjoy that game as is, or enjoy a lightsaber duel that lasts long and has alot of blocking, but in the end the learning curve, the room for improvement, decreases. The true appeal of games is how long you can enjoy the game as well as being able to develop as you play. With blocking at an all time high that renders more than half of the swings uselss unless another person swings, it creates a short ladder. Obviously, some competitive players and even normal players have left because they've reached the top. They've done all the can do. Blocking at 0 makes the chances for making contact much better.

The way I experienced it, the blocking was still there, pending you didn't 'hump' the opponent. With blocking at 1, there's no point in swinging anything else except certain heavy swings and the backsweeps/stab. This of course causes people to believe that certain moves are too strong and need to be reduced. That's precisely the wrong course of action, and I'm glad some people actually believe that as well. Those moves aren't too strong by themselves. Singularly, they are not too powerful. Yes, if I combine my backsweep with force pull knockdown, I am far too powerful. But if I manage to get it off in a fight one one one, and you don't notice that I'm trying to do it, then shame on you. I've notice that with ghoul2 on, the backsweeps and such are more or less blockable, even with sabertrace at 0. Again, if you 'hump' your opponent, then yes, you're dead. But, if you keep your distance at least a saber's length, you'll be fine. That's where the problem lies. Are you getting killed because that abusers of the backsweep or stab keeps breaking your defenses? Well, from what i've experienced, with the ghoul2 on and the sabertrace at 0, then yes that move is killer when you're too close. If you keep your distance, it's not a problem. In fact, most times I have been able to watch the person whiff the move and then counter with my own normal swings. Even worse, I sometimes could get in my own backsweep in reply. What's too close? It's what I call 'humping' and i think that's why people complain about blocking or even kicking, it's because they 'hump'. I'm not trying to be vulgar, but it's the best way to describe. Many people cry that kick should be reduced in strength, or even made harder to execute. That's baloney. The kick is not too strong, or even abusive. the problem lies in everyones instinct to ram a person. The kick was designed precisely to defend against that. To weaken the kick or even remove it is like removing an entire stradegy of the game. Rather than have normal duels where people strike from a distance and circle, people want to just run at a person, block shots from up close, and then from point blank range take a swing when they see an opening. That makes the game a mess. With sabertrace at 0, point blank means some of your saber swings, even some medium swings, will get in. This means in order to survive, and remain offensive, you can't run all the time. Sometimes you have to walk to slow your retreat or dodge enough to maintain range and initiative. It will not degrade the game into a jousting match, that only happens if you just run away and completely disengage, but you don't have to. If a person runs foward, side step, don't hump the person. Humping is bad, humping is what causes misconceptions .

Here's an example. Someone says that they fight a person for a long time, they get in all their light or medium swings. They are pretty much winning the match. Then said person walks backwards and kills them with backstab or backsweep. Let's forget about the pull thing for now. Just a backstab or whatever. The problem is not that the backstab/sweep is too powerful. The problem is actually two things. One - the victim was humping his opponent, so sorry, you got hit by a high priortiy, powerful move that IS avoidable, and two - saber damage for normal swings isn't very lethal. The backstab is fine. Why ever use a backsweep or backstab if you have to hit with it three times? That's silly, and promote the same ridiculously long battles that have been occuring because blocking ability against sabers is so high. These long battles don't occur because both players are good, it's because the blocking is so high, and only a select few swings have a reliability of hitting an opponent. This is not to say that no one is a good player, or that no one is capable of making long battles because they are good, it's just suggesting that these long battles should not be primarily attributed to skill, but rather to the incredible blocking ability. sabertrace 0 fixes that in my opinion.

So based on that gratuitous spiel, one that you probably either didn't read, skimmed because it was dreadfully boring, or simply steamed over it and mentally refuted every comment I made, here is a hopefully shorter breakdown of what I see as a truer and more sensible way for the community, or even Raven if they somehow take notice this more or less insignificant member of the internet and decide to make a patch, however the true patch system works, to improve the game.

Saber Damage:
Okay, I think we've had our fun and watered this game down long enough. We've all played 1.03, and we've not only tasted, but completely engorged ourselves with lower saber damage in an attempt to balance the game. I think it's served its purpose and parts of the community are satisfied. However, I'm willing to give everyone here the benefit of the doubt and proclaim that we've all gotten better. That means even the people who play ever so casually, and only play with their friends. So I issue the challenge (of which hundreds, or better yet, the one or two people who read this post regard as silly and useless) that we raise the saber damage and make the game more challenging for ourselves.

How should we raise it. Look, I've never played 1.02, so let's not just proclaim me as the guy who wanted to go back old school and held a grudge. I started on 1.03. I enjoyed the damage when I started because I like most new players couldn't handle everything. After much playing with many different people, and noticing the comments of the more competitive players, we've all figured out the system, and thus many of the moves we have deemed ineffective against the others we've found. On the other hand, we've also gotten better reflexes, and more defensive, so the other slew of maneuvers are not only weak but too easily blocked, and in the end, worth trading damage against the other dominant swings. Solution: put the damage ratios significantly higher. That's right, like 90/70/60. The question then comes "What about the differences between the stances. If I can score 120 damage with a light swing faster than I can score 90 damage with heavy stance, what's the point of ever switching. We're back where we started". Good point. However, I've always felt this way about that. These stances were never meant to be about damage per say. I'm certain Raven would not be silly enough to implement a style the primarily involved whether you wanted to do more damage or not. They meant to give different maneuvers to use against a player. With this high ratio, all the stances are downright deadly. So why use other stances? Here's the answer. With blocking at sabertrace 0 instead of one. While medium and light can get a few hits in, it's not an exorbitant amount. You keep range, you can block a great deal and parry a great deal, then counter strike. The differences in the stances should be in speed, the range, and the forcefullness of the swing, i.e the likely hood of breaking a person in complete defense. Heavy swing should be that highest damaging, but primarily the most forceful swings. I don't care if heavy swing only does a marginal bit more damage than medium or light if I get the higher advantage of breaking someone's guard, or meeting with their lighter swing and either breaking that or throwing their defenses down. If we change the system like this, people will suddenly be able to use all the stances again. Light stance keeps its speed relative to the medium stance, that's fine. However, it has no range. It would be primarily your weapon against gunners, now that you can do a good deal of damage per swing, and if you get in really close in a saber fight (humping) for some reason, you can beat your saber opponent to the punch. Otherwise, you switch to medium for you medium range to long range swings to normally engage someone. Then, you switch to heavy swing if you know you can throw your move, avoid getting hit during the wind up, and want to take your chances at slamming your saber down on someone. That should be the true reward of heavy swing. Not damage. If we reduce saber stance to a primarily damage system, they become nothing more than guns. Why use the bryor pistol when I can use a rocket laucnher or a sniper rifle with the same amount of accuracy and more punch? And if you reply - "because I get more ammo" or "the splash damage is less", then we're all going off track. Same with sabers. Why use light or medium if they can be blocked all the time with sabertrace 1, or if the damage means nothing compared to my opponents heavy swings i.e... i hit him three times with some well place light hits while this guy is winding up for his heavy swings. Then, he gets in his one or two, and i'm almost dead. However, i still need another three or four to go. He just needs to kick me or something. I'm not complaing about dying so fast, i'm complaining that the style of attack I used was so ineffective. Lowering damage for the stronger, more fatal swings wont' fix it because from my experience, you can't fool your opponent the same way all the time. With light stance or even medium, that's what's happening. i have to outthink my opponent not once or twice, but five or six times, sometimes seven. Meanwhile, if he's smart and sticks with heavy swing (this is assuming we have sabertrace 1) he's got the only moves that in the end really have that destructive guard break power. And he's the only who truly gets rewarded for outhinking me. This limits the game. Is it still fun. Sure, it's amazing. But like I said, the ladder is too short. With a week or two of dedication, you can climb this ladder all too quickly. And you can only stand on top of that ladder for so long before it loses its appeal and breaks down.

Okay, post is too long... I should just wait and see if anyone ever cared to read it, and then based on that, continue my opinion. Have a good day, take care, etc. Oh yeah, and thanks for reading if you did, hope i did not disturb you.

fink_dix
06-11-2002, 11:31 AM
I think that's reading a bit too much into it. The light stance I find to be excellent against heavy stance players!! I change my stance many times during a saber duel. It's exactly like real sword play. The idea is to block alot, and stab or slash when you have an opening.
So I think it's fine as is, the only thing that should be implemented, is that when you're pulled down, if someone goes to backslash and you remain prone on the ground, the backslash\stab shouldn't hit, it should go over your head.
Yellow stance is a great all rounder, and heavy I use in certain situations, when an opponent is off his guard and I can lunge in with an overhead to basically kill the other player.
So as far as I'm concerned damage should remain as is.

BlackDove
06-11-2002, 11:39 AM
The light stance and the medium stance do as about the same amount of damage...don't you think there is something wrong with that?

Dark Begger
06-11-2002, 11:47 AM
damage should be increased for obvious reasons. First of all, I can see that you think the backstab/sweep is bad, yet instead of making saber damage stronger, you decide to NERF the move. Instead of trying to make something better, you decide to make something else worse. That's not the way to go about as to change is concerned. Raven tried that with 1.02, and came out with 1.03, the infamous 1.03, with more bugs and problems than 1.02 ever had.

Increased damage will cause backstabbers to be weary of putting their backs infront of an opponent, ultimately destroying backstabbers.

I use light medium and heavy right now, and it is obvious that damage needs to be increased. Just the other day I was in a 2v2 tournament game for 20 minutes, and the score ended as 8-6. EIGHT to SIX in TWENTY minutes...and let me tell you that EACH AND EVERY ONE of those kills were backstab/sweep kills or a heavy stance DFA. When the fate of the game is decided among 3 different moves it is obvious that the rest of the moves need a real upbringing to be back on par with these special moves.

<>Phant0m<>
06-11-2002, 11:54 AM
I must say that i found it a very interesting read, highlighting some good points that need 2 be addressed.

Thx doctor shaft and i look 4ward 2 the 2nd part.




Dont flame me im kool :cool:

Lord Nodata
06-11-2002, 11:56 AM
Well said sir. Have you played Jedi vs Merc or is this just duel talk? Because the saber are QUITE deadly in that game mode. (At least to Mercs). My server has the ghoul2 settings ON and SaberTrace OFF. These settings combined with the compiled 1.03a (mod) makes for some Sweet Sweet Sweet gameplay...

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51955:cool:

Doctor Shaft
06-11-2002, 12:28 PM
I'm afraid I haven't played on Jedi vs Merc, although I've read much about it. However, these days I haven't been able to use the internet on my other computer which has the games on it.

On the other hand, I'm glad some people read my post. I'm not going to do the second half right now, I don't want to just ramble on and create a misunderstanding as to what my opinion is.

In response to finx -dix, and this is not an outright insult or disregard for your opinion, but I must disagree with you. I too, change my stance like you. I too also found that combat seemed to simulate real swordplay, and I also found the quick light attacks useful against heavy. However, the real clincher comes in the communities increased skill level. The reason I propose these changes is not soley based on the desire to see strong sabers. Rather, the community as a whole is getting too good for what we have right now. Sure, people can say that they still encounter quite a few new players or even awful players, but the fact that displeasure gets spoken of so constantly is because the damage levels we have aren't challenging enough. And not to insult your own playing skill level, but you'll find that up against the 'competitive' player -- or the person who plays the game to get better, the one who searches for the most efficient set of moves in his arsenal -- that in the end your switching of stances do no matter as much anymore. No, they are not completely worthless, but in the long run they have little value. The community has gotten used to the moves, and no longer fears them. 20-40 points of damage is almost laughable if I can trade hits with the heavy swing all the time. However, with a drastic increase in saber damage, your tactics will be a great deal more effective, and finally people will FEAR the lightsaber, rather than crunch the numbers in their head.

Of the other replies I have seen, this is true that a majority of games have broken down into twenty minute marathons, and the backsweep usually ends up the deciding factor. This is because it's the only saber move that is lethal. Is the game fine as is -- sure, if you don't feel like raising the bar. Again, I do not try to insult anyones playing level, but I feel raising that saber damage is the key. Less blocking, more damage. This will do two great things: 1) No more humping. If you stay close, but not rubbing up against each other, blocking and parrying with the ghoul2 system is excellent, if not superb. If you manage to get your shot in real close though, you have a good chance of scoring. That's the way this game should evolve now. WE can't wade in the shallow end of the pool forever, we must move on, or this game will fade out. 2) Rather than having to destroy an entire set of moves, we just give ourselves more moves. Right now, people are discussing making mods. There's the kaiburr saga, or this and that. Best of luck to them. However, rather than wait and anticipate new saber stances, and the like, the moves raven has given us are fine, if not close the excellent. The only thing they need to make them work though is that lethality. Light stance is not supposed to be like poking a guy with boxing gloves. this is a long shaft of burning plasma. It should be that you poke, get blocked fairly easily, but when you get through... ouch. We cannot continue to view saber stances as heavy damage, medium-range-low-damage, and short-range-superfast-low-damage. We should emphasize more our view of the stances as heavy-forceful-break-your-guard-swing, medium-range-well-adjusted-swings and light-very-furious-but-more-parriable-and-smashable-but-still-very-dangerous. Okay. Hopefully I get more feedback or opinion.

BlackDove
06-11-2002, 01:01 PM
You're just posting these big chunks of text to torture me, aren't you?

Dark Begger
06-11-2002, 01:07 PM
yes he is superman..mwahhahah suffer!!! READ OUR LONG DAMN POSTS! heheheh...damn I'm bored..

BlackDove
06-11-2002, 01:17 PM
Obviously...

Dark Begger
06-11-2002, 01:19 PM
shut up...I hate being an ewok.

BlackDove
06-11-2002, 01:22 PM
I know

fink_dix
06-11-2002, 01:35 PM
I see what you're saying a bit more clearly now Doctor Shaft, and I must say, I agree all right. Good post.

Dark Begger
06-11-2002, 01:36 PM
what comes after ewok anyways?

Jedi2k2
06-11-2002, 01:43 PM
what's wrong with being an ewok? you racist against them?:jawa :jawa

Dark Begger
06-11-2002, 01:45 PM
I don't know..being an Ewok is bad.they're too short. that's it.

darth dragon
06-11-2002, 01:49 PM
BIG FIGHT

SATURDAY 16th JUNE
HANN SERVER (SEARCH FOR Darth Dragon IN THE PLAYER SEARCH)

=SCC=KAL-EL
V
Darth Kaan
FREE ENTRANCE FOR THE FIGHT OF THE YEAR
FORGET TYSON ANDLEWIS THIS IS EVEN BIGGER.
WATCH OUT FOR MORE UP TO DATE NEWS ON THE jEDI ACADEMY 1 & 2 FORUM.

Dark Begger
06-11-2002, 01:51 PM
Hey darth! I'm complaining here...geez, post your fight promotion somewhere else...anyways...damn ewoks...lol

Jedi2k2
06-11-2002, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by darth dragon
BIG FIGHT

SATURDAY 16th JUNE
HANN SERVER (SEARCH FOR Darth Dragon IN THE PLAYER SEARCH)

=SCC=KAL-EL
V
Darth Kaan
FREE ENTRANCE FOR THE FIGHT OF THE YEAR
FORGET TYSON ANDLEWIS THIS IS EVEN BIGGER.
WATCH OUT FOR MORE UP TO DATE NEWS ON THE jEDI ACADEMY 1 & 2 FORUM.

put my money on Darth Kaan. SCC KAL-EL is all talk.

fitzwilliamd
06-11-2002, 01:52 PM
Tusken Raider comes next. Fun :rolleyes:

BlackDove
06-11-2002, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Jedi2k2


put my money on Darth Kaan. SCC KAL-EL is all talk.

=SSC=Kal-El won't be fighting

darth dragon
06-11-2002, 01:59 PM
SHI*, THIS FUC*S UP EVERY THING. I HAD T-SHIRTS, AND OTHER STUFF AND I WAS ALREDAY LINING UP SOME OTHER FIGHTS, WHY GO BLOW MY DREAM . OW WELL THERE ARE A LOT MORE SUCKERS.... I MEAN GOOD FIGHTERS.

BlackDove
06-11-2002, 02:00 PM
I bet there are other people who want to fight...

Jedi2k2
06-11-2002, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by darth dragon
SHI*, THIS FUC*S UP EVERY THING. I HAD T-SHIRTS, AND OTHER STUFF AND I WAS ALREDAY LINING UP SOME OTHER FIGHTS, WHY GO BLOW MY DREAM . OW WELL THERE ARE A LOT MORE SUCKERS.... I MEAN GOOD FIGHTERS.

I'll take one hat please

Dark Begger
06-11-2002, 02:07 PM
YES! I've grown a foot or two and am now a tusken Raider...excellent..

BlackDove
06-11-2002, 02:10 PM
I'm a Sith Lord....feel my :lightning

Dark Begger
06-11-2002, 02:13 PM
oh I will be up there soon. mwhaahha

BlackDove
06-11-2002, 02:14 PM
13 more for me and I get to change my title

Doctor Shaft
06-11-2002, 08:52 PM
Well, I've decided to write another post in the same thread, hoping that even more people will somehow navigate through my long writing and reply. Truth be told, I can only wonder if anyone would be willing to compile a patch themselves, one that incorporates some of the ideas.

The first post, if you took the time to read, dealth with my saber damage thing. I proposed 60/70/90. But moving on, here's a few more thoughts I had on the current system that 1.03 gives us right now. It's not a total lost cause, if some adjustments are made by a skilled modder, etc.

One of the things people commented about that struck a cord with me was the saber throw. So I figure I'll comment on the force powers. I've always had a huge imagination about a whole slew of force powers, but since that's something that involves a creative mod, and not just slight adjustments, I'll avoid that. One of the issues with saber throw is how it is spammed. Granted, I understand how some would say that it is both idiotic to be swinging your saber from long range, and that the damage is only 30, but there are still some things to be discussed. Firstly, I don't know about you, but I've noticed that saber throw comes out faster than a light stance normal swing. This isn't a joke. It just flies out. The problem is not that from long range it ruins a game. It's from short range. It is indeed true that the saber throw certain has extremely long range coupled with faster than light stance swing ability. This allows a person to essentially turn saber throw into a gun. Should we slow it down? No. Should we make it take more force power. Nah. The only real solution I see to saber throw is finding a way to be able to knock it away when blocked, and even better allow it to be knocked away by force push. However, figuring that out is beyond me.

Other Force powers:
The infamous pull force power is seen by many as too powerful. It's not so much push as it is pull, because pull allows the person knocked down to be put directly at the attackers feet for a fatal blow. The solution to this is not weaking that sweep. I already spoke about that move in another post. I understand that 1.03a causes push and pull to all but not function unless a person does not max out the force powers, or is low on force. I always thought a good solution to the push/pull issue is to allow vunerabilty based on a person's force level soley. If we do old 1.03 old system of also pushing out simple movement, we have a problem. Especially on levels that involve nothing but ledges and falls. Yes, it's cool to push people off a ledge, but it has gotten ridulous how tight space ledge battles have evolved. The lightsaber has become the shield, and force push the only weapon. The best stradegy is not to be honorable, or time your strike, but actually just to wait for someone to swing first. I imagine a fix would be to allow force push/pull to work when a person has only around 40% of their pool. I don't know how to impliment anything, just throwing out ideas. But why 40%, isn't that a bit high? At one point I was even dreaming 50%. This does a few things I think. First, it would limit ones use of the force. You have someone who just loves to abuse saber throw all day, and we can't impliment the knock saber away? Fine, just wait out on the force powers to drain. With this, we could also increase dark side force power effectiveness. Again, my ideas may be skewed, please comment back. Make lightning hurt pretty bad, but once you hit 40%, bad news. Force lightening, hurts a little more, but let it drain like crazy the force pool. Lightening should be a power that a person uses to over power someone, and as such the force pool should drain dramatically. Right now, the damage is relatively moderate, but a person can just douse people with it like a sprinkler. Also, the damage it does is not very useful. So, if we make it more useful, give it a very dangerous boost, but make the pool drain like crazy, coupled with the fact that you're susceptible to force powers while using yours, it leaves you open for the 40% pull, fatally kill, rinse method. People won't just use force speed and jump to constantly run from a fight and gather health, because you drain yourself too quickly.

Force push can work on the same system. Moving on to other powers though. The force heal system cannot be fixed using a good health number. The fact of the matter is this. A dark sider does not want to fight someone, only to know that he'll have to club his opponent to death because he can instantly recover. The light sider doesn't want to use a power that heals instantly, but only does 10 health or 15, and takes his entire pool away. The solution should be to get rid of instantaneous health. I always imagined that it should stay as the kind of meditation needed, i.e. no saber and standing still, recovering. How would this work in a fast pace, no breaks, competitive game, or on a level that is not multileveled, and leaving opportunity for hide and escape? Well, we shouldn't be using force heal as a staple power in the first place. It just shouldn't be. Second, if you manage to push someone away, or kick them down, there's your few seconds of rest. Meanwhile, you can slowly recover while draining some force points. I'll have to think more about how the system could be modified, pending anyone EVER takes interest in what I'm writing. Well, the post is long again, I'll just stop here, and try again later. If you ever think someone else would be interested in reading this (not likely) then feel free to copy past, refer to this thread, etc., and just let them read it. You odn't have to tell them who it's from. Have a good day. Take it easy.

magis70
06-11-2002, 10:51 PM
I think your ideas are right on the mark,doubt raven is gonna do anything about it though.As for your ideas on force powers,i couldent care less either way,everything is fine right now,ecept for the fact that you have to basically be a god to use dark side effectivly.In a perfect world,i would say up the saber damage accross the board,no stance is more powerful than any other,Make the stances more or less different "styles" of fighting with emphasis on stronger stances being able to break defenses easier,rather than making them like guns as you said.And make the special moves "not" do more damage,but just break defenses instead,that way they would still be very useful,but pointless to spam.

brethenc
06-11-2002, 11:48 PM
Well, now it's my turn to disagree on a few points:

Kicking. I have a problem with ANY unblockable move, regardless of the damage it does. Why risk trying to best my opponent when we wind up close to each other when I can just whip out 18 or 20 points of guaranteed damage? Not to mention that if I miss, I'll just end up jumping past or away from them, so I don't have to worry about a counter for screwing up. I love using kick to counter missed lunges and DFAs, but it's too easy to abuse, and is too frequently the right choice to make when you and your opponent are closing or in close quarters. I can't say for sure how to fix it, because kicking definately has it's uses, and is fun to boot [pun intended], but I think it needs to be fixed.

Nerfing. I'm not sure why people are so resistant to 'nerfing'. People don't like that the backstabs/swings are unblockable 1 hit kills, but they don't want them nerfed. What are you going to do? Make everything else unblockable 1 hit kills? Face it, the game is not perfectly balanced, and the backswings are too powerful. Decrease the damage they do [by alot] and make them blockable. Sheesh. Raven could have put a move in 1.03 that instantly killed the other player from anywhere in the arena, and people would cry and complain [rightfully] that it was obnoxious and overpowered...but DON"T nerf it whatever you do! C'mon people...sometimes the fix is to decrease the power/effectiveness of a weapon/ability, as opposed to constantly increaseing the power and effectiveness of all the others. Quite frankly, I question the purpose the backswing moves serve...seems to me that if I get behind my opponent, then I should have the advantage. They need to turn around, or roll/jump away...not have an instant kill at their disposal.

The special moves need to be 'specialized'. Each one needs to have a purpose that it is intended for and excels at...providing you connect. Currently the lunge and medium finisher are way too useful in any number of situations. I agree that the special moves should not really do more damage than regular swings of the same stance. If they do, then the recovery needs to be long enough for me to march in and do an equivalent amount of damage should you miss. The idea is that players fight with the regular moves within the stances, attempting to outthink and break through each other's defense [or offense], utilizing special moves on the rare occasions [or not, depending on your opponent] that present themselves. If you miss a special move, their needs to be a penalty...your opponent needs to have a reasonable opportunity to deal you the same amount of damage that you failed to deliver to them [i.e. you screwed up].

I would like to see player movement slowed when your saber is knocked away, to about as much as it is slowed when you take a strong swing.

Wall walking should not use force power.

I don't know that I agree saber damage should be increased...I think decreasing the blocking would eliminate the scenario where I'm watching two people clash sabers for two minutes only to check and see that they haven't actually damaged each other yet.

Saber throwing needs to be nerfed [yes, I said nerfed]. I'm not sure exactly what purpose it is supposed to serve on a duel server...seems to me if your opponent is too far away then you should close with them...you know, to duel...with lightsabers?...a thrown saber is only going to be blocked or evaded by someone who's paying attention, and it's not like THEY can't throw theirs right back at you. The real effectiveness of the saber throw comes during mid/close combat when you're opponent starts a swing, or when they are knocked down, which I guess Doctor Shaft already stated. I'm not real clear on the best way to fix it either, but I'll just say that throwing your saber at close range against an opponent who is facing you or attacking should cost you..oh, about 30 points of damage. At least.

Anyhoo, there's my 2 cents.

Doctor Shaft
06-12-2002, 12:11 AM
Again, thanks to those who replied. It would be great if I ever got enough people to view everyone's comments, and eventually compile some sort of change or adjustment, or patch, were they capable. In the end, all our conversation may prove useless, but I guess since I have nothing to do at the moment, I'll keep trying.

In response to brethnc, it's good to hear a dissenter to my ideas. I guess I'll have to do my best to address your issues. Firstly, regarding nerfing. I understand where your coming from, but these moves are not too powerful. If you implement the ghoul2 collisions, they are also blockable... pending you do not hump your opponent, as I mentioned somewhere in my gargantuan post earlier. In terms of nerfing, these are the moves that should not be nerfed. A DFA that could rotate in the air, and could still hit you to full affect while buried in the ground, and could be rotated while buried, was too abusive. A cool effect, but the move was so effective, other moves became obsolete. Solution, get rid of the rotation. In terms of power, it was never nerfed. It kept its killer ability, just eliminated its hitting potential. The ghoul 2 eliminates some of the backsweep/stab potential, and as long as you don't couple this move with the force pull problem, it's perfectly fine. And again, why would I ever use a backwards attack if the damage was not substantial? Your proposal of reducing damage would not just balance the move, it would effectively eliminate it. I believe that we should discontinue removing elements from the game. Rather, 1.03 should take what it has already, and add more. I feel increase saber damage does this effectively. You will see the spamming of the move virtually disappear once given the ability to use a more powerful, and extremely effectively light stance or medium stance multi-hit counter.

Also, the special moves are not the problem. How do I figure this? Put simply, we should look at the opinions of the most competitive players, namely those who play in tournaments... and win. Or those who play constantly and well... win. There are those out there who play to win. In their efforts to become the ultimate player, I have noticed that the special finishers are not at the top of the list. The medium finisher, if reduced in damage, will only prolong saber fights, or dissappear from the game, much like backsweeps would. When using a maneuver that requires a certain set up, and creates a move that goes through an entire animation and wind-up, a significant reason must be present to use it. If it proves so effective that other swings become useless, the solution is not to remove damage, because that is the significant reason for using the finisher. Rather, putting the normal swings on par by increasing their effectiveness many times is the answer. Now, I have a reason to use backsweep, because if I score, my opponent watches his head fall off, however... should I miss, with increased saber damage, those lightning fast light stance and medium stance swings will all but destroy me.

On to kicking. It's unfortunate that there is no defense to the kick feature. However, creating one is nigh impossible, lest you go on to create an entire melee system as well. However, while the jumping issue comes up with some players, it's been my experience that killing the jumpers is not a problem. Also, your question as to why should I ever use a normal light swing, etc. to hit a person when I have my unblockable 20 kick? Well, If we implemented a more letal, 60/70/90 system, you have a decision right there. Do I think I can sidestep my opponent quickly enough, or duck under his kick maneuver and come with the light lunge attack soon enough, to deliver that quick sixty or more? Or will I simply avoid the attack? Or will I try to beat him to the kick? There's options in this situation that are worth taking. In the current system, almost all the time, unless you're doing a backsweep or a heavy swing, the other options pale in comparison. I firmly believe that increasing saber damabe dramatically, that alone, would be a huge step towards making the game more enjoyable for players, or perhaps better said, incease the longevity of the game as the gaming community as a whole continues to grow in skill level.

And to end my post. I still question as to why I even bring up these topics. Comments go up saying there is a patch, and there isn't. It seems the final verdict so far is the RAven will not create a patch. On one hand, I'm disappointed, on the other hand I can understand that Raven has either tied hands, or just maybe they truly believe their current system is fine. And besides, it is their game, who are we to tell them how it should be made? Anyhoo, if this is so, who would ever be willing to compile a patch such as this, or even radically different? Is there anyone out there willing to, or capable of doing such a task? And even better -- does the community really want a patch? From what I can see, the arguing has died down, and more people are simply becoming content with what we have. I can understand that. Anyway, thanks for reading if you did, have a good day, and please reply with your comments.

Darth Edo
06-12-2002, 10:42 AM
Me thinks the system is as good as it can get, but more sabre damage would create a more tactical approuch to melee battles. Less blocking i think will reduce the fun, because a wildly swinging beginner would get lots of hits...

magis70
06-12-2002, 03:14 PM
Here Here!

brethenc
06-13-2002, 03:36 AM
lol...I believe that's 'Hear, Hear!' :p

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

I have never understood nerfing to be directly and exclusively related to damage. I have always understood [and seen] it to be a reduction in the effectiveness of an item or ability, though this can certainly mean reducing the damage.

As for the backsweeps not being too 'powerful', I guess we all have different ideas of how an ideal JK2 duel should go. The backsweeps ARE 1 hit kills, regardless of how many 'sub-hits' are in 1 hit. I like the length of most of my matches now, and I don't like the idea of being killed by 1 strong swing or 2 meduim swings. I mean, at 60/70/90, does that mean two light swings leaves me at 5 health? Swish, Swisk, Kick....gf.

As for why you would ever use the backsweep if it didn't kill your opponent in 1 hit [again, wondering why you should have any sort of offensive advantage when your back is to your opponent], well, I guess I think the the backswing should function in such a manner that you wouldn't want to try to turn your back on your opponent just to use it, but it might [depending on the situation] be the best option if you find your opponent behind you. And again, it seems like a matter of personal preference...I like the idea of having to land a couple of good hits to win a match...as opposed to just one.

As for the finishers being a little too all-purpose; I don't know if the backsweeps were on the top of the competitive players lists during 1.02...if they were, then they are on top of things. If they weren't, then it's because they were complaining about other over-powered moves they were being used at the time [DFA]...the point is, backsweeps weren't changed from 1.02 to 1.03 [per Raven, or at least from what I read in the patch notes and the other thread]. If the backstabs/sweeps are ever fixed, then players will start looking at whatever else is doing the most damage and winning the most duels. Personally, I would like to see regular swings accounting for most of the damage..if they're not, then to me that means the regular swings are just giving your finger something to do while you weave around trying to plant a special on your opponent. Which is alot of what I see know. Any of the special moves [including the backsweeps and kicks] should have a purpose...a specific circumstance[s] where they excel. Using them at any other time [or missing] should cost you. Currently they are working in reverse...they only cost you if your opponent anticipated the move and maneuvered accordingly. I see them used far too frequently, at least for my tastes.

I don't think increasing the damage would make combat more 'tactical'...it would simply make it shorter. If everything was a 1 hit kill, is that the ultimate in tactical combat? First person to make a mistake loses...I wouldn't want to play like that, but I guess ultimately it's a matter of degrees and personal preference.

magis70
06-14-2002, 03:06 AM
I just played on a moded server in the testing phase,saber was 50/75/100 with goul2 blocking and backstab among other specials nerfed,and it was sw33t!Saber battles were still moderatly long because of the blocking,but when you hit a guy,YOU HIT A GUY!this is the way jk2 was ment to be imo.The newbs were being smashed,which means the game has a decent learning curve now,but it was much funner and more like lightsabers should be,i took my hits too mind you,but it was still fun,we werent using glow sticks anymore.

Lime-Light
06-14-2002, 03:47 AM
nah. Nerfing isnt the answer. Normal blocking should be lowered an special blocking raised.

Dark Begger
06-14-2002, 12:28 PM
lime is right, nerfing is NOT the answer..get it through all of your heads. 1.02 they tried the nerfing approach, and you guys are still back complaining. So it's obviously NOT the way to go. What should happen is things should be fixed or ADDED to gameplay, making backstab/sweep less potent. How about raised normal saber swing damage? The only reason there are backstabbers right now is because they can go in and not die from a saber in their back. As for kick, it should go back to one tap (so you have to be closer to do it) right now you can be at a distance and pull it off..which creates kick lamers.

Doctor Shaft
06-14-2002, 09:15 PM
Well, this 50-75-90 server certainly takes a step in the right direction. This is precisely what is needed to improve the game. I think people would be amazed how much better 1.03 is if it had higher normal saber damage and the ghoul2 collision set on as default. Granted, the ghoul2 adds a minor bit of extra lag, but if you have a decent set up, it's nothing. Also, nerfing is the worst answer. As said before, 1.02 took that approach, and the game suffered more than improved. Well, maybe getting rid of the DFA problem was a help, I don't know what I'd do if I saw a bunch of people hopping around like that all day. The complaint about hte backstab thing though is so easily fixed. I always pose the same question about what you would do after backstab were reduced in ability. And that question is: when will you ever use this move again? Nerfing it from a one hit kill is like eliminating three maneuvers, and removing an entire level of stradegy from the game. Sure, it sucks that you get it hit by it and its over, but as long as you don't use the pull-backsweep trick, it's a perfectly blockable (with ghoul2 on and as long as you don't hump your opponent), and easy to dodge or escape from. At no point does this move have ultra vacuum properties or stealth technology. This move is very readable, like any other move. In other words, it's not as super as people play it out. Sure, it's frusturating at first to fight a new player, and he scores on you constantly with backstab, but come on. Are you that unwilling to adapt to the new player style. Some people complained on another thread that saber damage too high resulted in "newbies" being able to swing recklessly and destroy people. Surprise. I don't know about you, but it seems to suck some reality into the game (as far as a game can take reality that is). Some of the most dangerous opponents or fighters ever will be the ones with no regard for their own safety, a reckless, flailiing style with tons of power behind it. That's why you always here about a martial artists of any type training to keep their mind clear, and take all opponents, even the "newbies" very seriously, because their recklessness and also unpredictability makes them incredibly dangerous. So yes, more damage, and more blocking is the solution to a much better game. I applaud if any new player utterly destroys me because all he does is backstab me when i'm not looking. That tells me that I shouldn't have been sleeping while fighting everyone else. People want a game that seems more like the movies, or a game that makes the saber function in a balanced manner, so that we can have more "jedi" like fights. Well, part of pretending to be a jedi is being aware of all the danger, not just the guy you're interested in fraggin. Respond respond respond. and have a good day.

magis70
06-15-2002, 03:18 AM
correction,i dont think that server nerfed specials,i just wasent used to having goul2 on,it was great.With the 1.03 blocking,the extra saber damage doesent hardly shorten the fights much anyway,just makes it a hellof alot more realistic,when you hit someone with a lightsaber,they should be hurt bad,i mean,comon,ITS A LIGHTSABER! ITS SUPPOSED TO HURT YOU!After playing with this new damage system,i never want to go back,it was like fighting with glowing clubs before,i just diddent notice much till i got to play something different.

derekdrygon
06-16-2002, 08:14 AM
Ack, the server move ate my post :(

Oh well, it was rather long anyway :P



Hitmann_D

SteelFury
06-16-2002, 08:38 AM
i think all special moves should be set up so you have to have full force power to use. this would stop ppl doing the same tired move one after the other.
SteelFury.

Areoch
06-16-2002, 09:32 AM
Considering I already posted up a reply to a similar thread and it seems to be going into the gutter, I'll just cut and paste my reply here for my alternative ideas on saber damage. This is from another thread so some things may not apply

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You know I've noticed this kind of strange phenomenon among certain people, most of you seem to actually think that people play this game for fun and enjoy good fights in which the main focus is to improve on skills rather than rant about score and such.

Would be nice but this is the real world and people are just not like that.
Before you lynch me for disagreeing with you let me tell you why I don't think increase damage ONLY=better games

Now this is just my opinion and its just based on my understanding of the game and of the players. I really wish a group of like 10 forum people would just host a server and try out every single suggestion for a day to see how thing would go instead of endlessly arguing or debating in the forums.

Anyway here is my debate
If you mildly increase damage (no damage gradient=1.02) People spam heavy in hopes to get a 'tip' kill, IE: do a heavy left to right swing and spin manually. Its impossible to block/avoid getting glazed by some part of the animation if your opponent is close to you and if the swing does 100 damage from start to finish there is no real reason to do anything but heavy (unless its countered by a very agile medium like in 1.02)

if you GREATLY increase damage to the point of every hit being either 90 or a kill people will spam light AND joust.

if you mildy or greatly reduce damage people will spam specials more as the Advantage vs Risk ratio tips in that if you do a special you'll get lightly nicked while your opponent is either dead or nearly dead

if you decrease blocking people will joust, dancing around each other doing hit and run attacks

if you increase blocking people will spam (but in the case of 1.03 you have them jousting still)

Don't give me crap about people being honorable because they are not. You can't give people powerful things because most likely someone somewhere will abuse it, changing damage values alone will just make people spam something else.
Nothing would have changed if people didn't use DFA in lieu of walking or used heavy 24/7. Some of you may have forgotten how a 1.02 NF duel went when both people were heavy only or DFA spammed. You complain about 5-10 minute duels what about the 10-25 minute ones that involved two people poking at each other with heavy too afraid to get close to each other because they don't want to take the chance of dying.
If any of you ever played JK1, the saber damage was, 30 for normal swing, 123 for secondary. Secondary was a huge bowtie that was unblockable and if you got close to it at all you took all 123 points. Spork helped but still there was always secondary spam, the system was appalling! I would seriously hate for such a thing to come into JKO.

My suggestions is instead of just making the damn saber hit more change the fundamentals.

+Decrease blocking to a 90 degree directional arc but make it a guranteed block (no knocking saber away see below for why). This way if two people face each other directly and someone does a horizontal slash they should hit the other person if he doesn't turn to look at the incoming blade. This way people will have to actually look and stay focused on their opponent to block. Encourages forward looking.

+More regular saber moves/combos. Everyone wants these and there is no reason not to have them. If you too lazy to animate just add some 1.02 moves to the 1.03. You could add make these available only as the last move in a combo. IE: if you do a horizontal slash after two diagonal cuts it is a different horizontal slash than just a regular one and if you can make it do more damage. These pseudo-specials would reward people for swinging the saber normally and would add some spice to combat

+Expand on the parry system. Ghoul2 is nice but I would rather see a system that rewards me for planning. IE: If a person does a diagonal cut going down and I see it coming, I should be able to do a diagonal cut going up in the opposite direction to parry. If it connects, knock the attacker's saber away and give me an opening. This gives me an incentive to not just turtle and block. It also encourages people to develop timing if I miss with my parry, the attacker is going to hit me with his swing before mine can hit him.

+x2 damage for attacks hitting from rear. This is debatable, will it make people face each other so they use forward attacks or will it make people play leapfrog over each other to hit at that juicy behind?

+include 1.03a fixes. Keep backstab's damage, with the feet glued to the ground its actually a very difficult manuver to pull off and you're sides are vulnerable as you can't spin to protect them
Backsweep I don't know if gluing feet to ground would stop the exploit. You may have to lower the damage. And I know this doesn't sit well with you Doctor but people should never use specials more than regular moves. If you make it do regular damage then its more of a defensive attack used only in rare occasions and with all the new moves who would miss it anyway? It did the same damage in 1.02 and noone used it because of the other moves. What would be the difference now? (And yes it did the same damage I know for a fact because I killed idle-dropped players with it as a flashy way to kill them in 1.02)

As the cryptic Denis Miller once said,"This is just my opinion and I could be wrong."

I am sorry if I sound preachy and I could just as easily wrong about damage not fixing the problem. But most of you do admit that damage alone won't make JKO into the best game ever there is a whole slew of problems and this is just the saber aspect of it.

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ryudom
06-16-2002, 09:54 AM
lots of good things have been said here i think. anybody hear of or try the unofficial 1.04 mod/patch? i supposedly stuff ravens done but hasn't released or something. i want to know if some ones used it.

also i think you shouldn't be able to saber throw in duels, i mean if a jedi say a saber coming at them, they could probably just catch it. so while its good against gunners, not so against jedi. it should get knocked down every time it hits a saber or something

so someone tell me if they've tried out the 1.04 thing

Areoch
06-16-2002, 12:51 PM
Wooo I just tried a sabermod server and had lots of fun. It wasn't slow and tactical more like fast paced crazy saber action but it was helluva fun. Maybe I was wrong about more damage thing :)