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Dark Begger
06-12-2002, 12:26 PM
Should we increase saber damage? I vote yes and I will list my reasons.

1) Increased damage = decrease assfighters
2) Increased damage = faster duels
3) increased damage = more tactics required
4) Increased damage = less mindless hacking and more cautious attacking.


those are my four reasons, and I can't find any 'cons' to this. Please vote on hte poll and post why you chose what you did.

*edit* hehe..if you look, it's ironic how light got a blue line...medium got a yellow/orange line, and heavy got a purple line..hehehe...talk about coincidence.

Cal-Gon Gin
06-12-2002, 12:51 PM
Yep.

*bump*

The Truthful Liar
06-12-2002, 12:54 PM
I miss 1.02's Lightsaber Damage and Blocking... So that's a yes I suppose.

Dark Begger
06-12-2002, 12:54 PM
I think it will be largly sided on the yes side...but there will always be those naysayers..

Dark Begger
06-12-2002, 12:58 PM
then why did you choose only medium??? hehehe.. I think all would benefit from a saber damage boost.

Datheus
06-12-2002, 01:19 PM
I just mentioned this in another forum...
It feels like the saber has been doing less dmg in the last week (that's just me, obviously)...but I mean, I stand there...with absorb on...as some dolt trys to use lightning and I walk up to him and heavy him like 3 times, and he's STILL alive, I mean, come on, my saber goes right down through his head and down the middle of his body and he's not DEAD? And yet, some how, barely knicking someone on the leg when you do a backswing kills them...hmmmm....

Dark Begger
06-12-2002, 01:25 PM
YEs, the saber system is unbalanced, and hence backstab/sweep has become so uber to some people. anyways, to quote a friend of mine who's in game name is Crucible,

"Duels are now nothing more than two people holding gigantic glow sticks trying to hit eachother with them"

Jedi2k2
06-12-2002, 01:52 PM
NO!

Robbiesan
06-12-2002, 02:03 PM
I say yes.. bring damage back up to where it was before and decrease special move damage so that there is no 1 hit kill..

da_rat
06-12-2002, 02:15 PM
i honestly think that the DFA needs to be tweaked. it's just too slow and unmauverable to be a serious option as a finishing move.

Datheus
06-12-2002, 02:18 PM
Here's how I think the saber system should be

You get hit with the saber in mid-swing - Uber dmg, no matter WHAT stance, it's lightsaber for Christ's sake, a REGULAR sword could kill you in one swing. They up the dmg alot...less the blocking arc, but beef up the auto blocking in the front. I love playing in SP with g_saberrealisticcombat turned way up so every hit is close to a kill. That's just the way a saber works... if they beef up the blocking in front and make the arc smaller, then it becomes a game of who can catch the other guy with his saber out of place. It'll become alot more strategic, cause if you just swing swing swing like some people do, you're toast, cause a push and a swing later, you're dead. I mean, when someone's lying on the ground, prone, HOW do they NOT end up dead when you're standing above them, hacking away?

-edit- and also...they won't cool looking saber battles? Well, if one hit will kill you, maybe you won't be swining like mad, seeing who can get lucky first and you'll actually TRY to block the other person's swings... when just about any hit can kill you in one hit, then I think the saber battles will be more "realistic" and look more like in the movies and what not

Dark Begger
06-12-2002, 02:18 PM
I see two votes for no, there shouldn't be changes yet I don't see anyone posting a reason why they said no???

If you say no, then tell us why. Or are you guys just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing? lol

Dark Begger
06-12-2002, 02:33 PM
bump bump bump

Sutek
06-12-2002, 02:49 PM
I thinnk that the combination of decrease in saber damage AND increase in blocking was too much - one or the other would have been just fine.

Having spent a long time getting used to the new blocking system, I think it's just peachy. I can generally land a solid blow through it 9 times out of 10, just by knowing when and where to strike. And this is using red or yellow stances - which many complain are too slow to do anything useful with.

The blocking stops the chicken dance that plagued early JK2 - where new players would spin at you like a top, landing some painful blows. This wasn't a difficult tactic to beat, but it WAS a nuisdance - under 1.03, it's just not going to land unless you do it while they're tying their shoelaces or something.

So bring back 1.02 saber damage! Or just up the damage in general, let those who CAN'T land a blow have a chance, and protect us from the headless chicken dance!

magis70
06-12-2002, 03:24 PM
ya,keep the blocking the way it is,and up the saber damage to something realistic,the blocking system is fine right now imo,ghoul2 might make it better,but right now,i have no trouble landing hits,they just do little or no damage.

Darknes40k
06-12-2002, 03:41 PM
I say put g_saberrealisticcombat 100 as standard in MP, but add the down (head to foot) split animation. g_saberrealisticcombt does sort of give you the feeling that the characters are made out of lego blocks.

To be honest I think the saber should cut, but not kill, everytime it hits. So you might live if someone cuts off your left hand, but your blocks work less well.

A kind of hit system. Where you might los a hand and a foot, but still be able to fight.

Just my 2 cents

I do believe that a saber should cut you as in g_saberrealisticcombat at all times. (maybe with better animations)

C'jais
06-12-2002, 04:14 PM
Hell yeah, I think saber damage should be increased, but not for the sake of shorter fights. Never for the sake of shorter fights, but rather, deadlier fights. And someone get rid of the "headless chicken" players, do they really believe that style of playing bears any resemblance to skill? It's utterly pathetic to fight that way.

Blocking shouldn't return to the 1.02 though, IMHO. But you damn well shouldn't be able to block attacks from your rear either.

I think most people are aware of this flaw in the game, and most modders are working on it.

Mentler
06-12-2002, 10:48 PM
No. saber damage should not be increased. That would mean people would die faster since u need to hit less times to kill a person. The game would be even more unbalanced as it is

QuietSith
06-12-2002, 11:10 PM
Just use the fan version (truesaber) mod (see other topics) .. no need to increase damage - it makes all damage realistic.

HurT
06-13-2002, 03:23 AM
In the hands of someone skilled, the saber should be the most dominant weapon in the game. Blocking should be increased in MP, more towards the SP system if anything, and saberrealisticcombat should be implemented. If they simply walk into your saber, they should DIE!

Thats the game I want. Make a mod for it, and I'll pay you my hard earned cash ;)

SeraphimII
06-13-2002, 03:30 AM
g_saberrealisticcombat for mutiplay would solve alot of problems here. Fast ffa/ctf matches(src on). Slower more stratgic matches for duels(src off).

Also increasing saber damage would only increase mindless swings. Its alot more dangerous to fight someone swinging randomly who kills you in 2/3 hit rather then 4/5.


Ta-DAh!

Haradim
06-13-2002, 03:39 AM
I voted yes, I do find the standard moves to be rather lacking, especially compared to the backstab/sweep. I do have a couple comments however. Be warned, they come from a largely newbie, casual player perspective ... ;)

Decreased Assfighters
I honestly don't see it. The main strength of assfighting comes from the fact that it is both very, very easy, and is fairly effective against the majority of opponents, and most assfighters know this (that's why they do it, after all). What, if anything, can be done about that, I don't know; the second is overcome with experience (usually), but the first is a flaw of the game itself.

At least they aren't as bad as pull-sweepers though; I can actually kill assfighters on a fairly regular basis :p

More Tactical Thinking and Less Mindless Hacking
I hope so, but I'm not so sure. Greater damage, especially on the scale many suggest, could turn battles into a matter of whoever gets the first hit in, which rewards pullers and people who madly dive into battles with sabers flying. Pullers don't need more options at hand, and suicide fighters are already common enough.

Those are just my observations though. I'd have to actually play in such a setting to see how it works, obviously. Overall, I think higher damage is a fairly good idea, so long as it doesn't just become a one-hit slaughter to enter into any fray, and the above points don't come true.

Gandel
06-13-2002, 03:43 AM
Personally I think Backstab and back sweeps should do less damage. decrease it by half and I bet the amount of butt fighters would decrease

EDIT: Thought I should add. they should do that with Heavy spins. it gets really irritating seeing someone mindlessly spinning using Heavy stance.

Dark Begger
06-13-2002, 12:19 PM
guys, if you're limiting moves (like nerfing the backstab) you're limiting game play. I do believe assfighting will decrease if saber damage is increased. in 1.02 there was no assfighting...why? If someone turned their back, they were DEAD..no chance at all.

The only reason assfighting came about was because people can go up and not die when they try to a backstab now. raise the damage, people will be more cautious about going up and backstabbing.


Next, Mentler, the game would be MORE imbalanced? no..you would be bringing normal attacks up to the strength of specials. It should be less hits to kill anyways..it's a light saber for god's sake... I think less the DFA bug and small coding issues with 1.02, the saber duels in 1.02 were a LOT more balanced. medium was beating heavy jsut as much as heavy was beating medium. normal attacks were used just as much as DFA was (for most people.) Saber combat was a LOT more balanced with higher saber damage.

Saruman
06-13-2002, 01:44 PM
no way. increasing the damage would not be cool.

imagine, the finel duel in episode 1 would have been like this:

Evil looking Darth Maul appears behind a slowly opening door, ready to bring revenge over the jedi...
and then he takes out Qui-gon with just one slash and gets soon after this himself killed by a single sweep of Obi-wan's saber. The movie would have been much shorter, but I think epic duels are much more desirable.

:jawa

Saruman
06-13-2002, 01:46 PM
no way. increasing the damage would not be cool.

imagine, the final duel in episode 1 would have been like this:

Evil looking Darth Maul appears behind a slowly opening door, ready to bring revenge over the jedi...
and then he takes out Qui-gon with just one slash and gets soon after this himself killed by a single sweep of Obi-wan's saber. The movie would have been much shorter, but I think epic duels are much more desirable.

:jawa

Dark Begger
06-13-2002, 02:05 PM
Well...Qui-gon DID die from 1 stab...

And Maul died from 1 stab also...

IT was just that they were blocking really well. :D

Fossil25
06-14-2002, 09:59 AM
YES YES YES
raise the damage !!!
i don't really know the difference between the 1.02 and 1.03 version though since once i got the game, it was 2 days before 1.03 came. when someguy has his back facing me, i can chop him and he won't die unless i switch to the heavy stance, but that can still be unable to do it if he has shields, i'm not sure how much.

i got a relatively long once coming...i try to think of a lot of things, sometimes i think too much and miss an early loophole...but otherwise hopefully i thought of enough to get this right

i think saber defence should be different when it comes to sabers. everytime someone tries to hit you with a saber, there shouldn't be auto-block as long as you are facing him. even with the highest level of saber defence, maybe it'll be good if we have to move our mouses to get our saber around the point where the saber will be hitting. if we don't, we get hit. not a full hit as if we had no sabers but maybe half? there would be 4 points of defence -
-1 mainly a point when u are not facing ur enemy and get the full hit,
-2 a point u face the enemy but never manually block it with your mouse resulting in half the damage taken,
-3 point near your pointer/defending saber so that you blocked it but still take slight damage,
-4 lastly the most precise point when u successfully block the attack as a whole. this need not be 100% exactly on the spot where the opponent hits but among them all, this would be the most accurate point.
how saber defence helps, against sabers, will be that it reduces damage you take even when you DO block it in the manner described in the 2nd and 3rd point.
again i'll mention that these changes only apply to saber vs saber.

about the 2nd blocking point, where u don't manually block the attack but are facing your opponent such that by right your auto-blocking blocks the attack, bascially the point where we would normally (and still under this method) be able to block lasers (assuming highest level of saber defence). this point, when having saber defence 1, results in you still taking 70% of the damage taken without a saber, what i'll call the real damage. with level 2, you take 50% of real damage. with level 3, 30% of real damage. therefore, if a heavy stance should do 120 damage now, then with level 3 defence and at this point, you take 36 damage regardless of your stance.
let me describe the 3rd blocking point.
it simply halves the damage from 2nd point. with 1 saber defence, u take 70/2=35% of real damage, with 2 levels it's 50/2=25% and 3 levels 30/2=15%. say heavy stance now does 120 real dmg and medium does 80 real damage and light does 50 real damage, and he attacks you with heavy, u block it to this extent, you take 120x15%=18 damage with highest level of saber defence. If he attacked you with light stance, the damage is about 8. the numbers i felt were more or less ok.

Also, if the attacker uses a weaker stance to attack, like light while defender uses strong, then u can be prety much sure you'll never hurt the blocker as long as he blocks it with 3rd or better points. Using weaker attacks against solid defence, u should be pushed back if he blocks to many or something like that. perhaps adding a probability that you will be either pushed back and suffer a slight recovery period where u are open for attacks, pushed down as we all are familiar with, or be pushed down and have the saber knocked off such that he must run and get it or wait till it comes back, like what normally happens when it occurs. chances of falling and losing saber is of cuz lower than just falling which is lower than being pushed back.
Saber throws, when blocked manually as in 3rd point are always totally blocked regardless of stances of attacker and defender. if the block was precise enough as in 4th point, it gets knocked onto the ground.

Therefore with practice, it's probably possible to know where the saber will be when it reaches u so you can knock it down with ease next time u play against players who just keep throwing at you hoping u miss the new type of block and take some damage. With practice it also means the good players can block much more effectively than weaker players, allowing them to make strikes that hurt while they block much more assaults and if their opponent tries using light stance to charge, these experienced players could block well enough to knock their saber off so they would think twice about using light stance with random charging tactics.

about the first post...
decreasing assfighters is possible since front fighting can actually hurt.
faster duels is possible between 2 unequal opponents and this should be correct. with 2 equal opponents, the length could still be longer but it would be tiring on the mind, more tiring than boring.
more tactics...u need it for defending saber strikes...u might wanna make moves your opponent won't expect either to prevent them from doing a complete block.
less mindless hacking could be done since mindless hacking is a light saber medium saber and against strong defence of manual blocking and higher stances, they can suffer setbacks of falling and stuff.

Saber penetration is still valid, like some special moves being able to penetrate saber defence always.

QuietSith
06-14-2002, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by AB_Legion
I miss 1.02's Lightsaber Damage and Blocking... So that's a yes I suppose.

http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?3139

http://www.udpsoft.com/forum/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=668

Demolisher
06-14-2002, 10:26 AM
They should all be changed. I liked multiplayer better before the patch

Pedantic
06-14-2002, 11:05 AM
Most definitely raise the damage.

Dark Begger
06-14-2002, 11:57 AM
7 nay sayers and only ONE response to why!! I think Kal El is playing a joke on me...lol...

come on guys! if you said now..say why!

<>Phant0m<>
06-14-2002, 12:05 PM
Im with u on this 1 Dark Begger!!

get that semi-realistic feel back in 2 this game now !!!

/me unclips magnum..... :eyeraise:

Dark Begger
06-14-2002, 12:08 PM
Cool phantom..I'm just making sure that Modders see this (since Raven isn't workin on this anymore..well..that we know of). I don't want to see them catering to n00bs like Raven did first patch..soo, I thought THIS was the only major downfall of 1.03 that pretty much initiated assfighting.

Yoda_623
06-14-2002, 12:13 PM
I think on certain moves the damage should be raised.:D

Dark Begger
06-14-2002, 12:15 PM
the normal moves right? like normal swings. the specials are strong enough as they are.

raziel_spawn69
06-14-2002, 01:04 PM
guys make dami for saberes 90/70/50 for red/yellow/blue ...

the reason for using other stances should not be damage but DEFENSE CUT THRU ABILITY! with a real sabre it dont matter how hard you swing, it will still slice right thru, so u should use a hard swing to knock down a sabre

Scarlet Widow
06-14-2002, 02:50 PM
i think it should be, definetly. Just as it was in single player.... and you can easily change that. Ever try the g_saberDamageScale command? :)

i think a value of 4 is perfect (example: g_saberDamageScale 4), it has to be set by the server though of course.

Doctor Shaft
06-14-2002, 09:02 PM
The saber damage should be increased, and the blocking should be cut down. Period. The ghoul2 system, as someone mentioned before, gives all the blocking ability you need. The added blocking makes the game more annoying. Sure, some people have gotten used to landing 9 - 10 of their strikes or what not, but eventually people will improve, and sooner or later it's going to be near impossible to land a hit unless you get them when they're swinging at the same time. With less blocking, it'll encourage people to keep their distance. I found that with high blocking and ghoul2, at close range you get to have all the fun you want. Or at least it seemed that way. Put it down, and getting close means playing with death. I like that. The specials should not be reduced in damage either. Everyone says that, but I must always pose the next question -- when will you use the backsweep/stab maneuver ever if it didn't do as much damage as it does? Even if I made the damage on par with normal moves, or even put it at 90, who would use them? Why would you use them? With ghoul2, they're not only pretty blockable pending you're not humping your opponents leg at the same time, but as long as you don't use the force pull, sweep trick, it's easy to dodge, and see coming, and avoid. No one will ever use those moves again if they were reduced in damage. It's like asking to remove a whole section of moves.

Areoch
06-15-2002, 01:35 AM
You know I've noticed this kind of strange phenomenon among certain people, most of you seem to actually think that people play this game for fun and enjoy good fights in which the main focus is to improve on skills rather than rant about score and such.

Would be nice but this is the real world and people are just not like that.
Before you lynch me for disagreeing with you let me tell you why I don't think increase damage ONLY=better games

Now this is just my opinion and its just based on my understanding of the game and of the players. I really wish a group of like 10 forum people would just host a server and try out every single suggestion for a day to see how thing would go instead of endlessly arguing or debating in the forums.

Anyway here is my debate ;P
If you mildly increase damage (no damage gradient=1.02) People spam heavy in hopes to get a 'tip' kill, IE: do a heavy left to right swing and spin manually. Its impossible to block/avoid getting glazed by some part of the animation if your opponent is close to you and if the swing does 100 damage from start to finish there is no real reason to do anything but heavy (unless its countered by a very agile medium like in 1.02)

if you GREATLY increase damage to the point of every hit being either 90 or a kill people will spam light AND joust.

if you mildy or greatly reduce damage people will spam specials more as the Advantage vs Risk ratio tips in that if you do a special you'll get lightly nicked while your opponent is either dead or nearly dead

if you decrease blocking people will joust, dancing around each other doing hit and run attacks

if you increase blocking people will spam (but in the case of 1.03 you have them jousting still)

Don't give me crap about people being honorable because they are not. You can't give people powerful things because most likely someone somewhere will abuse it, changing damage values alone will just make people spam something else.
Nothing would have changed if people didn't use DFA in lieu of walking or used heavy 24/7. Some of you may have forgotten how a 1.02 NF duel went when both people were heavy only or DFA spammed. You complain about 5-10 minute duels what about the 10-25 minute ones that involved two people poking at each other with heavy too afraid to get close to each other because they don't want to take the chance of dying.
If any of you ever played JK1, the saber damage was, 30 for normal swing, 123 for secondary. Secondary was a huge bowtie that was unblockable and if you got close to it at all you took all 123 points. Spork helped but still there was always secondary spam, the system was appalling! I would seriously hate for such a thing to come into JKO.

My suggestions is instead of just making the damn saber hit more change the fundamentals.

+Decrease blocking to a 90 degree directional arc but make it a guranteed block (no knocking saber away see below for why). This way if two people face each other directly and someone does a horizontal slash they should hit the other person if he doesn't turn to look at the incoming blade. This way people will have to actually look and stay focused on their opponent to block. Encourages forward looking.

+More regular saber moves/combos. Everyone wants these and there is no reason not to have them. If you too lazy to animate just add some 1.02 moves to the 1.03. You could add make these available only as the last move in a combo. IE: if you do a horizontal slash after two diagonal cuts it is a different horizontal slash than just a regular one and if you can make it do more damage. These pseudo-specials would reward people for swinging the saber normally and would add some spice to combat

+Expand on the parry system. Ghoul2 is nice but I would rather see a system that rewards me for planning. IE: If a person does a diagonal cut going down and I see it coming, I should be able to do a diagonal cut going up in the opposite direction to parry. If it connects, knock the attacker's saber away and give me an opening. This gives me an incentive to not just turtle and block. It also encourages people to develop timing if I miss with my parry, the attacker is going to hit me with his swing before mine can hit him.

+x2 damage for attacks hitting from rear. This is debatable, will it make people face each other so they use forward attacks or will it make people play leapfrog over each other to hit at that juicy behind?

+include 1.03a fixes. Keep backstab's damage, with the feet glued to the ground its actually a very difficult manuver to pull off and you're sides are vulnerable as you can't spin to protect them
Backsweep I don't know if gluing feet to ground would stop the exploit. You may have to lower the damage. And I know this doesn't sit well with you Doctor but people should never use specials more than regular moves. If you make it do regular damage then its more of a defensive attack used only in rare occasions and with all the new moves who would miss it anyway? It did the same damage in 1.02 and noone used it because of the other moves. What would be the difference now? (And yes it did the same damage I know for a fact because I killed idle-dropped players with it as a flashy way to kill them in 1.02)

As the cryptic Denis Miller once said,"This is just my opinion and I could be wrong."

I am sorry if I sound preachy and I could just as easily wrong about damage not fixing the problem. But most of you do admit that damage alone won't make JKO into the best game ever there is a whole slew of problems and this is just the saber aspect of it.

Areoch
06-16-2002, 12:52 PM
Wooo I just tried a sabermod server and had lots of fun. It wasn't slow and tactical more like fast paced crazy saber action but it was helluva fun. Maybe I was wrong about more damage thing :)

DarkendNever
06-16-2002, 09:36 PM
Ok I know this has been said and scoffed at many times over.
BRING BACK the 1.02 saber damages. I was soooooooooooooo Happy to find out when i got jk2 home that it was not just "Lets run around and hit each other with big glow sticks" game.
I quickly promised myself that I would learn the artful side of saber use in this game, without it I would die alot I could tell.
So i learned to use all 3 styles and got used to the damage that each could cause.
Before long it seems one move is runing the game -DFA (red foward special attack) And it kinda was . But...............
Coming to the point of this extended blurb, there was a solution a "patch" as it were. Well the patch changed every saber damage level and made the game somewhat resemble one giant American Gladiators with glowsticks fight. Make that retarded chimps with super human unseen powers to pull you down (never seen a jedi do this to another jedi in any star wars that i can recall) then.., turn around hit back and attack and get an easy kill.
So we have traded one evil for another. NO FUKIN TY!
Raven coulda asked for ideas before patching this damn game.
Did they ? Why not you say? What are they thinking?
They didnt I feel cuz they wanted to free up resources for the other gaming projects they have in line and on the shelves (you know that "other" raven release we all wanted)
So in ending I say the poll says in its most basics.......
GO BACK TO THE 1.02 SABER DAMAGE CUZ IM NOT A RETARDED CHIMP WITH A GLOW STICK FOR RAVEN TO LAUGH AT ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK
plz make the ****ing game fun again.
ty and good day
Nev

Areoch
06-17-2002, 12:42 AM
For the 1000th time, don't blame Raven blame LucasArts. Raven would have probably released another patch now to fix what they did wrong in 1.03. Besides its different dev teams from SOF2 and JKO