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Dark Begger
06-12-2002, 02:32 PM
and BOOM, VaderJM was shot down by the moderator. hehe...

Anyways, just to clear it up, asking for scripts to give you an advantage in mp is never a good thing. Just a note for future posters out there who decide they want a script for certain moves. OnlyOneCanoli said it right and perfect.

Scripts should be used to help mods get developed. Not for gaining the upper hand. okay Im' done..I had just finished replying to Vader but my post didn't make it before Canoli's..so yeah. hehe..

VaderJM
06-12-2002, 02:37 PM
Actually, you idiot, he closed it because there was too much flaming, not because I was "wrong".

My post got eaten too, it's a shame, cause I said some very clever things. *Sigh*

Anyways, binding keys is not cheating. By that same logic, binding force powers to keys is cheating, because it gives you an unfair advantage against those who didn't.

Jyt-Pon Dai'el
06-12-2002, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by VaderJM
Anyways, binding keys is not cheating. By that same logic, binding force powers to keys is cheating, because it gives you an unfair advantage against those who didn't. [/B]

Binding Force powers to keys is included in the setup menu. I don't see how that's cheating. Besides, on more than one occasion, I've seen Ravenites strongly encouraging it.

Dark Begger
06-12-2002, 02:49 PM
clever? did you read what he posted to you? He said clearly that ping had no effect, as he played on australian servers.

And he said that scripting a 2 key move to 1 key would not help you at all anyways.

It was what WE had all been saying just without all the flames.


Next, binding force powers is cheating? Look, binding force powers, first of all..is in the control options. so it's not a cheat. And force powers are a '1 button' to use move anyways.

What you want is a combination of buttons (not many..2, but still a combination) binded to 1 key. It's a totally different thing. If

But your same logic, then how about I use a script that pulls-pulls-turn 180 degrees - backstab at the push of a button? It's pretty stupid. Because that is OBVIOUSLY a cheat. how about at I use a kick script where I push a button and it does kick, then 180 degree turn, then backstab? these are all cheats, and yours is right there with it.

Nax
06-12-2002, 02:51 PM
Vader> He closed it because there was too much flaming, IMMEDIATELY after your last post. What does that tell you?

I happened to read that post Vader, and no, you did NOT say some very clever things.

While binding keys may not be cheating, aliasing them is generally frowned upon.

Frankly, I don't understand WHY someone would need to bind backstab. I would imagine it would be more difficult with both backward and attack bound to the same key.

Nax

P.S. Some points that need to be made:
-Half the people on this forum could probably kick your ass around JO. Admit it. If you can't backstab at the drop of a hat, you have to admit that half the people on this forum could probably kick your ass.
-Your post in response was far more inflamitory than any of the original ones posted to you.
-I'm surprized you've never played Quake multiplayer before. You a Duke3D guy?

VaderJM
06-12-2002, 02:54 PM
NOWHERE, did you say that binding backstab wouldn't help me. The only thing you did, was flame. Now when the mod makes a point, you hop on the bandwagon saying, "See! That's what I've been saying all along!". THAT is lame.

How bout the guy who posted the list on how to bind saber attacks back when the game first came out. No one flamed him.

Or how about the guy telling everyone how to fly and avoid fall damage. That's much worse than me, it's exploiting a known bug. No one flamed him.

Why? Because those 2 things benefited you, it wasn't someone asking for help, it was someone giving it.

Nax
06-12-2002, 02:54 PM
P.S. I've thus far seen only one flame in this particular thread. That particular flame came from you.

Vader, cool it. Nobody's out to get you. People flamed your original post because you happened to be asking a stupid question. Besides openly SOLICITING a cheat, you solicited a seemingly pointless one, as backstab is really just two keys.

People'll get flamed for asking where they can get a WAREZ copy of JO (you'd be suprized how often it's happened before). The people who post exploits are generally discouraged and told not to. Admin'll probably take action after the first warning.

Nax

VaderJM
06-12-2002, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Nax
Vader> He closed it because there was too much flaming, IMMEDIATELY after your last post. What does that tell you?

I happened to read that post Vader, and no, you did NOT say some very clever things.

While binding keys may not be cheating, aliasing them is generally frowned upon.

Frankly, I don't understand WHY someone would need to bind backstab. I would imagine it would be more difficult with both backward and attack bound to the same key.

Nax

P.S. Some points that need to be made:
-Half the people on this forum could probably kick your ass around JO. Admit it. If you can't backstab at the drop of a hat, you have to admit that half the people on this forum could probably kick your ass.
-Your post in response was far more inflamitory than any of the original ones posted to you.
-I'm surprized you've never played Quake multiplayer before. You a Duke3D guy?

No, no, no. The post that got eaten, the one I had posted after he closed the thread was clever, not any of the ones before.

My posts were defensive flames.

I bound backstab to E.

Never played Duke3d.

VaderJM
06-12-2002, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Nax

P.S. Some points that need to be made:
-Half the people on this forum could probably kick your ass around JO. Admit it. If you can't backstab at the drop of a hat, you have to admit that half the people on this forum could probably kick your ass.


Well damn diddley duh, they have a month on me. I played when the game first came out for about a month, then quit for a month, and came back to patch 1.03, getting beaten senseless by pullstabbers, before deciding it'd be better to join them. It got too boring winning or losing with only guns. That is when I made my thread.

Nax
06-12-2002, 03:03 PM
I always copy/paste my posts before posting, just in case. :)

A flame is a flame, and you responded with more than you were attacked with.

And if you never played Duke3D, what had you been playing?

Nax

Sutek
06-12-2002, 03:08 PM
OK, I might mention that if this continues into a flame war then moderators are ilkely to ban someone. Or several someones.

From my point of view, the flames were expected (VaderJM, you should have seen them coming), but excessive.

He asked for help, not insults, and the least we could do as a community is to help each other. Now, what he asked for is a sore point to us all, and is unecessary to be honest IMHO. All you NEEDED to do was say "No, I'm not going to help you with this. Learn yourself", or even NOT POSTED. Just give it a rest ok? You know and I know that binding the move to a key will not help him get better at it (or even make a difference now) - so let it go in the smug warm glow that is self-satifaction. Please?

VaderJM - Binding the move to a key won't help you. Not because of your ping, not because of your lack of experience, but because of OUR experience. Most players are now alert for a backstab/swing, or the opporunity for one, and instinctively react to the situation by getting out of the way. This means by the time you have spun round to execute the move, they are already too far away for it to activate. Even if they weren't, you then leave yourself open for the myriad counter attacks that are available. As I stated above, it will also not help you practice the move, so you end up moving exactly nowhere by using a script. Is this your intention? Why do you NEED to become so good at the backstab anyway? If you are good enough, you shouldn't even need it most of the time anyway.

I suggest you all take a deep breath, count to ten, and go do something else for a while. Then reply.

JaraDaj
06-12-2002, 03:20 PM
Since people are so quick to supress knowledge;


VadarJM, check out my reply in the Multiplayer Strat forum. The title is


Bind moves?


link should be;

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61501


Knowledge is free, always has been, always should be. Belittle others all you want, you must be dreaming if you think they care bout what you say when they log out. Fighting over the internet is like running in the special olympics, Even if you win you are still retarded.


:greedo:

Dark Begger
06-12-2002, 03:32 PM
hmm..Vader, actually, the moderator DID say exactly what I said. First of all, I told you that ping didn't matter, in the moderator's post..he said that ping didn't matter.

Next I said this:
*edit* actually..you know what's stupid? He wants to bind back+attack to 1 key. it seems that pushing two keys is too much for him. hahahhaha..how pathetic.

the moderator said that binding a 2 key move to 1 key wouldn't help much. That is exactly the same thing I said except I said as a flame. I'm sorry about the flame, but that was the undertone of that statement.

So actually..I DID say exactly what the moderator said...

VaderJM
06-12-2002, 03:38 PM
Thanks JaraDaj and Sutek.

Nax, other than Tribes, I never played multiplayer FPS.

I don't catch undertones, or hidden meanings in posts, especially when they're not there. You just wanted to look good by flaming somebody.

Emon
06-12-2002, 03:40 PM
Binding those kind of things to keys doesn't help at ALL. They go whacko on you a LOT. If you press it twice or hold it, sometimes he'll never stop doing the move, then it gets really fuxed up.

What really is funny is that some people are just GOOD, they don't need scripts to win, and they don't use them. Then you retards go and post this because you're mad that you suck at the game and you need to take your anger out on something.

Dark Begger
06-12-2002, 03:49 PM
hmm..I said binding 1 key for 2 button move is pathetic...

meaning stupid..pointless..useless..

1 key for 2 button move is useless, pointless, stupid..

^^^
that's obviously what I'm saying right there.


if you couldn't catch that then..well, sorry, but it's kind of obvious what I meant...

Sutek
06-12-2002, 03:57 PM
I have stated time and again that I dislike the "assfighters", but there is a difference between wanting to master a move and using it constantly. At no point did VaderJM say he wished to do the latter (though admittedly use of a script has it's own stigma and the implication of overuse). Most of you who have flamed him no doubt also use the backs????, where tactically appropriate. You also know how to deal with assfighters (kill them. In a swift and messy fashion that makes them look stupid), so be careful where you throw stones.

I will make an admission, one that will no doubt get me flamed as well. When I first played the new patch, and discovered that the back attacks were so powerful, I also needed to practice them. A lot. I tried to execute it time and again on people, trying not to run backwards at them but to time a spin and attack correctly. Eventually I felt I was satisfied with my ability to use it - and now I only use it occasionally. It's a move in my arsenal, nothing more.

VaderJM, if you really need to practice this move, then if you have msn or ICQ (preferably msn), then I'll see what I can do to arrange for you to practice it, as well as anything else you might want to practice (I prefer saber combat above all else, so it might be worthwhile for you)

Dark Begger
06-12-2002, 04:02 PM
oh no Sutek, you're exactly right. I actually use the backstab/sweep constantly, and I get by and up the ladders with it. What seemed to me was that he wanted to bind this move to ONE key because he didn't practice enough and couldn't do it with TWO keys. This has nothing to do with 'whoring' the move...in no way. It's his method of achieving his goal of becoming a "skilled" (in quotations because some people don't think it is..but I do) backstab user. He should learn the game without using scripts, and then he will truly perfect it. right?

Sutek
06-12-2002, 04:08 PM
Correct. If you want to learn something, having it automated for you won't help you learn it - merely use it.

My objection was to the knee-jerk flame, without recourse to a full explanation of WHY he shouldn't even contemplate using a script.

I have to say Dark Beggar, that I'm one of the camp that thinks constant pull/backstab isn't demontration of skill, but it is a demonstration of an acute understanding of what gets the job done quickly and effectively. I personally don't play on ladders, and so I stay out of discussions that say it is the only tactic to use there (I refer to ArtifeX and his statements about it in part, which is a worthwhile guide to sabering for the more experienced :> ) I consider it a shame that it is used so much, but that is where it ends really.

C'jais
06-12-2002, 04:26 PM
It really hurts me whenever someone acuses me of using a script to win my saberlocks. I have a special way of clicking really fast, and I never hit my opponent after he has fallen on his ass by losing a saberlock. I don't even *know* how to make a script and I think people must be really pathetic to cheat in games by using scripts. Changing core game dynamics in a game is cheating, binding keys is of course not.

Changing core game functions would be to change the kick to 1 key-press, instead of 2. It gives you an advantage, no matter how you look at it, and is therefore cheating. It doesn't matter if it "doesn't help much", it's still cheating.

Sutek
06-12-2002, 04:32 PM
I have often wondered if people think I'm using a script for winning my saberlocks - I rarely lose one now (having fought against some people who would always thrash me, I developed a new way of hitting the mouse like a madman - and they still beat me...).

Mind you, I DO hit them if they fall on their arse (well, mostly I do, sometimes I'm regaining my usual hold on the mouse and keyboard :> ) - It's half the point of trying to win a saber lock (the other being not to get hit when you get up after losing).

Cal-Gon Gin
06-12-2002, 04:35 PM
I would also like to point out that at no point did I ever say that scripts were bad per se. I meant that reliance on scripts means that you do not develop your skills, and in the long run you will plateau quickly as a player because you are limited to the circumstances when you can use your scripts.

For instance, in Quake a basic intermediate skill is the rocket jump. Many folks use scripts for this, but relying on scripts, even the "smart ones", limits your height and range of rj. Thus, learning how to do it (admittedly a difficult *two key and mouse* move /sarcasm) correctly, with all the variations, i.e. growing your skill set, leaves you with more in your arsenal and a better player.

And if I can pull backstabs with a ping of 250 then he can to, since I'm not "l337." Practice, practice, practice. "Quicker, easier, is the dark side" if I may once again paraphrase Yoda.

Homosexual Ewok
06-13-2002, 12:06 AM
Scripts that execute special moves like the DFA or lunge are not cheats, if for no other reason than the user does not gain any advantage over his opponent who does it manually. These moves can only be executed so fast, no matter how many times you mash the buttons you will still have to wait through the "delay" period before you can execute it again.


Scripts that do things no human reflexes could accomplish are without a doubt cheats. Saber lock script users will always win if for no other reason than they are not burdened by the tiny millisecond it takes for a human to release pressure on his attack key and then reapply it.

The same goes for kick scripts and Force pull/kick off scripts.
Sure you can outsmart and beat the people who use them, thatís not the point. The point is if going "head to head" with them you have zero chance of getting your move off first.

And this notion that "it's in the game, you can do it too, so it can't be cheating" is a total load of ...

For those of you unfamiliar with the Quake 3 engine, up until the final point release there was a crude but effective built in wall hack. All a player had to do was bind a key to toggle r_shownormals 1 and you had a pure server working wall hack.

These may not be "hacks" but they are what are called "exploits" and unfortunately most software developers (retail) don't really care about them. The only ones that address these are the MMORPG services due to the "pay to play" system.

BlackDove
06-13-2002, 12:09 AM
*eyes closed*

Lemme guess, lemme guess...another flame thread on how something is unfair to "me"?

VaderJM
06-13-2002, 01:38 AM
Wait, so ewok are you saying I'm cheating, or not cheating. I never thought of it as cheating, and only tried it once, but if it can be thoroughly deemed as such, I'd stop using it.

BlackDove
06-13-2002, 01:52 AM
Oh no, it's "I said, you said" game now...

Homosexual Ewok
06-13-2002, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by VaderJM
Wait, so ewok are you saying I'm cheating, or not cheating. I never thought of it as cheating, and only tried it once, but if it can be thoroughly deemed as such, I'd stop using it.
Never saw the original thread so I'm not sure what scripts you were talking about. The bottom line though is if you are unable to do it on your own without the script, I would have to say yes.

Here comes the funny part though.

I don't really have a problem with cheating.

You want to run around using a script, wall hack, aimbot whatever, fine.
Just don't run off at the mouth and play it off as if you were not using a script.

If you are playing and someone asks you (respectfully) to chill with the script, there is no harm done in complying.

As for the OMFG YOU LAME! @#$%^&* Responses you will receive....

People who are unable to address others in a respectful manner deserve no respect themselves.

Nobodi Kenobi
06-13-2002, 03:17 AM
I agree with Homosexual Ewok in that if a script gives you an unfair advantage by doing something that otherwise would be humanly impossible, then yes it is a cheat.

However, not all scripts are cheat.

Let's take everyone's favorite game - Counter-Strike - Who we've all played once (and possibly play in conjunction with JO and other games; there's a concept!) who encourages players to use scripts to buy weapons and also to fire those weapons in ways that normally wouldn't be ass effective as if you did it manually.

The first part, buying weapons, is not considered a cheat. It simply automates the process and gets you out of the spawn faster. And those who play the game don't consider buy-scripts cheats as well. Therefore, it is accepted widely as and any skilled CS player worth their weight knows how to use them.

However, the second one is where debate happens and that is like using a script to fire the AWP (one shot kill weapon akin to BS in JO) faster by switching to another weapon (and firing again) or zooming in twice with one button press instead of two.

The latter is what is happening in JO right now (and has always been and will be debated in other games like QIII and future games).

Personally, I think that JO is very different from CS and binding moves that you should be able to do on your own takes less skill than actually learning how to perform the move yourself -- and most importantly, perform it well.

To recap, I don't think scripts/scripting is "illegal" or cheats per se...

But I think that it depends on A) What it is being used for (does it give an unfair advantage?) and B) Whether it is an accepted method by those playing the game as a whole (the community).

BTW... The way I get out of a saber lock is to keep tapping the jump button so even if I loose, they can't knock me down and I'm already in the air (using force jump) if they try BS or even a regular swing :)

SeraphimII
06-13-2002, 03:48 AM
Meh...Too lazy to read the thread so I'll just Bs(Not backstab) and if this was said before, chances are I'm not sorry.



1.) Binding a 2 button move...

2.) Posting about how to bind a move thats been claimed to ruin the game and make statigy take a backseat to lameness...

3.) Darth...

4.) Need sleep...

5.) Damn, I'm still typing....

6.) Why can't I stop...

7.) There I stoped...

8.) DAmnit I didnt stop...

9.) While I'm still here I should say that if you have to bind it your using it too much...

adios, No really!

Nax
06-13-2002, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by VaderJM
Thanks JaraDaj and Sutek.

Nax, other than Tribes, I never played multiplayer FPS.

I don't catch undertones, or hidden meanings in posts, especially when they're not there. You just wanted to look good by flaming somebody.


And you're just trying to look good fabricating a pious innocent upper road. It's not working.

There. You can count that one. That's one flame against you. You can't find any sort of flames anywhere else in my posts, so I must just be trying to look good by flaming you?

The fact of the matter is, there were no flames in my posts. You've flamed more than anyone else on on this thread, and without just cause. My posts had a skeptical tone to them, as I was skeptical as to how you were somehow justified in replying as you did. I am now less skeptical and more certain that you are in the wrong here.

Nax

P.S. Man I loved Tribes. Too bad Tribes2 kind of sucked. How long did you play for?

VaderJM
06-13-2002, 04:30 AM
Nax, I wasn't even talking to you then. I was talking to dark begger.

I didn't play tribes for that long, but long enough to know how to lead fire effectively.

deliboy007
06-15-2002, 04:15 AM
pull/backstab has two lines of defense in my opinion. well three but the third one is rare. once you know what they are doing, flip on the absorb. their constant attempts should keep you up on force. if they do pull you, flip on the protect. keeps you alive. the third happened when i had heavy stance: the bloke pulls me in mid swing and killed himself. satisfying to say the least. anyway, you know you have one up on them anyway because in the end they are little pantywastes that suck @$$ at this game anyway.