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View Full Version : LucasArts - Let Raven Takeover JK 2 For PC


QuietSith
06-16-2002, 10:49 AM
Why do I say that?

Do you notice the fog in SOF 2 RMG?

Well, look at this, Raven themselves run a poll to see what you people want:

http://forums.ravensoft.com/ib/ikonboard.pl?s=3d0bee3c0610ffff&act=ST&f=2&t=853

Imagine if JK2 were ran the same way.

SAiNTx
06-16-2002, 10:54 AM
I feel quiet, you will start a Coup E'tat in the United states....

RUSSIAN SPY!

Seriously, on topic. Yeah I agree, Raven should get more control.

arctic_series
06-16-2002, 10:56 AM
er don't see how raven can be in charge more than they are right now.

QuietSith
06-16-2002, 10:57 AM
Raven has to get permission from LucasArts in order to get a new patch out.

LucasArts owns the game.

Activision owns Raven (I'll bet you didn't know that).

"In 1997, Raven Software joined forces with Activision Incorporated (Nasdaq: ATVI) in an exclusive publishing deal that would merge Activision's proven publishing and distribution resources with Raven SoftwareÕs talented development team."

http://www.ravensoft.com/company.html

Raven owns SOF 2.

The only way Raven can do more for JK 2 is if LucasArts let them.

arctic_series
06-16-2002, 10:59 AM
activision owns raven ? er isn't activision just some distributor, and raven is a developer company ?

QuietSith
06-16-2002, 11:00 AM
Read above ... I edited the post ... and provided proof.

QuietSith
06-16-2002, 11:01 AM
LucasArts owns the rights to JK 2.

That's why people need to stop bashing Raven and tell LucasArts to let Raven fix the game.

QuietSith
06-16-2002, 11:18 AM
"Interview with Michael Chang Gummelt":

"What, if anything, would you like to say about the negative reaction by a part of the community to the latest patch?


I’d have to say some people have some valid points about a couple things that can be exploited and I’d love to get a few fixes out there… and some people are a bit misinformed about what the patch actually did. In the end, though, that decision is up to LucasArts, not us, so all I can do is cross my fingers with the rest of you, really.

http://modcentral.jediknightii.net/changkhan.php

Ready Wan
06-16-2002, 11:52 AM
This is exactly the point of this thread:

http://64.246.44.70/~lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=615292#post615292

contacting Lucas Arts and informing them of the need of a patch is much more constructive than griping to Raven or even posting in this forum for that matter.

QuietSith
06-16-2002, 11:57 AM
I think a poll works better, and I didn't have to ask anyone to keep reading this thread. ;)

QuietSith
06-17-2002, 05:58 AM
Everytime I see a new post, blaming Raven, this gets a bump.

Datheus
06-17-2002, 06:02 AM
Yea...I was just thinking this when I stumbled across this thread...

We all thought that JKII was LucasArts' savior, its redemption..it was perfect:)

Now they won't let Raven fix it

Damn LA, I doubt I'll buy a game from them again, it was enough to have to go buy a new video card...

-edit- and the 2 people who voted that LA was doing a fine job should go walk off the wrong end of a cliff somewhere

-=[M@ximus]=-
06-17-2002, 07:01 AM
in my post i wasnt blaming Raven, was just askin what is going on, but from what i read hear, Lucas need to sort there fans out, or has it gone beyond Lucas's thoughts now of bringing the fans the things they want

to just pure, line is pockets and tuff crap too the fan's

and the 2 peeps, not a cliff, try launch your self into outer space, with no suits on!

Ioini
06-17-2002, 08:55 AM
LucasArts, I condemn you people to let Raven make another offical patch. You want money? We what fun. So, let Raven work the magic. This game ain't abandonware yet folks.

Do you want rioters coming at your company buliding? I didn't think so.

Scarlet Widow
06-17-2002, 11:38 AM
LucasArts is just as bad as EA or Eidos, they don't give a **** what the fans want or the quality of the game they just want loot and they want it fast! :mad:

Nill the Mean
06-17-2002, 07:49 PM
How long has it actually been now since 1.03 was released? I can't really remember. Have we been waiting for the ever so elusive 1.04 longer than we did for 1.03? It wouldn't suprise me one bit if this game was left to rot. They made a boo-boo and I guess no-one feels like fixing it. Shame, cause with just a a few changes 1.03 could be great. Maybe if we all send one E-Mail with loads of signatures from everyone... wishfull thinking.
Oh JK2, I loved thee so. Now thee art notteth as goodeth. Oh woe!

QuietSith
06-18-2002, 10:07 AM
Does anyone want to forward someone who is really important at LucasArts this particular thread?

Can an admin forward this thread to the LA JK2 producer?

Chewie Bakker
06-18-2002, 11:10 PM
I agree that Raven should be given more freedom in regards to patches and stuff. Raven should be allowed to update/patch at their hearts content. From what I've heard they're really eager to please. They take pride in their work, and so they should. JK2 rocks!

:wavey:

CapNColostomy
06-19-2002, 08:46 AM
I propose we all storm Skywalker Ranch. Maybe during the looting we can snag some cool movie props. I call dibs on R2-D2!

QuietSith
06-19-2002, 09:51 AM
.

QuietSith
06-20-2002, 10:28 AM
I forwarded this thread with a link on how to register to the lucasforums (?) to Mr. Tom Sarris of LA.

Hopefully he sees this poll.

Lime-Light
06-20-2002, 01:35 PM
Fux0r 2 joo |\/|r. 54rr15.

QuietSith
06-20-2002, 02:13 PM
:confused:

ReIIiK
06-20-2002, 03:02 PM
I've been a Raven fan for years, I own all their games, tho my current favs are JKII and SoFII. I know Raven isn't to blame for the game not "really" being supported, that falls on LucasArts sholders.

lf412
06-21-2002, 06:20 AM
we'll need more than the current 80ish or so people who have already voted to get LA to care...

gonk-raider
06-21-2002, 09:24 AM
THEY SHOULD tell lucasarts to release the single player code :(

QuietSith
06-21-2002, 10:20 AM
Hey guys, check this out as well -

http://64.246.44.70/~lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63581

dansolo
06-21-2002, 10:50 AM
:naughty:

Cobalt60
06-21-2002, 10:52 AM
you say that Lucas won't "let" Raven fix the game..

but the economic reality of the situation is : that Raven can't continue to support this game unless someone PAYS them for their time.

(and Lucas won't give them any more money)





..and can you BLAME them!?

Raven was hired to do a job. they botched it.

If I was LucasArts , I'd be pissed.

in fact, if I was LucasArts , I'd sue Raven for breach of contract.
(and I'd get a COURT ORDER to make Raven to support the damn game FOR FREE)






((this is NOT LucasArts' fault))

((their "hired contractor" completely messed up the job
and then just walked away with work unfinished))

((somebody pulls that crap on me , they get sued))

QuietSith
06-21-2002, 10:58 AM
OMG - did you even read the posts in this thread?

There's a direct quote from a Raven dev that he wants to continue to fix the game with patches IF LucasArts will approve of it!

And of course they need money to fix patches, do you expect them to do the work for free? :rolleyes:

Do you know the exact conditions of the contract or are you just 'just talking'?

Most dev and publishers tend to work together for a long time after even a few patches - look at ID and Activision.

Sheesh .. if the contract was bad where they had to renegotiate for each and every patch than that's simply a really bad contract.

No dev team is 100% perfect, and the Q/A (I believe) is done by LA.

Are you saying there shouldn't be any new patches - because LA shouldn't spend the money?

Are you saying you don't want to see the game fixed?

Are you saying that LA doesn't have enough money to get the game fixed - to continue to pay Raven (if that's a part of the terms)?


The game is one of their best sellers!

The bottom line is:

The only way Raven can continue to support and fix the game is if Lucas Arts allows them (and yes, Raven does want too) - period, finished, end of concept.

Come on people - VOTE YES - and let's get this game fixed!

gonk-raider
06-21-2002, 11:04 AM
Who said its what lucasarts wanted in the first place you slack jawed blank. We are alittle too willing to beleave they f'ed the game and your alittle too willing to beleave that lucasarts is at fault :)

QuietSith
06-21-2002, 11:06 AM
If you read the first couple of messages on this thread - A raven does explains that it's up to LucasArts to approve of future patches.

I'm not sure what part of that is hard to understand?

That makes LucasArts - 100% responsible for the game.

Cobalt60
06-21-2002, 11:06 AM
I'm saying that Raven should have done their job properly the first time.
(and I'm also saying that they should not be rewarded for their apparant failure to do so)

QuietSith
06-21-2002, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Cobalt60
I'm saying that Raven should have done their job properly the first time.
(and I'm also saying that they should not be rewarded for their apparant failure to do so)

And so you have read the entire contract between LucasArts and Raven and you KNOW that they have to pay Raven again to do another patch?

:p

Cobalt60
06-21-2002, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by QuietSith
If you read the first couple of messages on this thread - A raven does explains that it's up to LucasArts to approve of future patches.

I'm not sure what part of that is hard to understand?

That makes LucasArts - 100% responsible for the game.

Gummelt ALSO admitted that the shortcomings of the 1.03 patch were a MISTAKE on Raven's part

All the assfighting and backstab-exploits were the result of a miscommunication between two programmers.

(that makes RAVEN 100% responsible for the game's FLAWS)




((If I was Lucas , I'd sue for reparations))

QuietSith
06-21-2002, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Cobalt60


Gummelt ALSO admitted that the shortcomings of the 1.03 patch were a MISTAKE on Raven's part

All the assfighting and backstab-exploits were the result of a miscommunication between two programmers.

((that makes RAVEN 100% responsible for the game's FLAWS))

Either way - they need APPROVAL from LucasArts to FIX it.

You really don't know if Raven is obligated to fix it or free or not.

What we DO know is that Raven must get LA's APPROVAL.

Again - I ask you how you KNOW that LA must pay Raven again - I'm really curious in how you know this.

Also - please quote and provide the link to where Raven 'admits' this wrongdoing - thanks.

Otherwise - how do you plan on getting it fixed?

Please share your solution ...

Thanks.

Cobalt60
06-21-2002, 11:17 AM
what solution ? the 1.03 code was already approved for the Xbox and Mac versions of the game.
JO is a finished product.

my solution for you : wake up and smell the coffee burning dude

QuietSith
06-21-2002, 11:20 AM
I guess you never play "MP" - the backstab/sweep problem is a major problem in the game.

FYI - Console = SP.

Enuff responding to your ignorant and disinformative troll posts.

Have a nice day.

Cobalt60
06-21-2002, 11:36 AM
imagine that you are "Raven Construction" and you have been hired to build a new a swimming pool for a man named George.

you dig the hole. you fill it with cement. you are 75% finished.

then your time limit comes up.
George comes out of the house and he tells you :
"OK thats good enough dude.. the house has been SOLD 'as is' ..
you can stop sweating over the details now..
in fact you don't even have to finish that last little patch of cement there..
here let me pay you for your trouble.. NOW GO AWAY"

and George pays you off , and he discharges you from your contract.




now SURE .. .
you WANT to go back and finish your job.
Afterall, you are a professional.
You take pride in your work.

but in the end ,
the home-owner has attack dogs ,
and he likes his swimming pool ~just fine~ the way it is

(he's DEFINATELY not going to PAY YOU at this point, to come back and finish the job)

(he just sold his house , and he's under an obligation to leave it just the way it is)




((<<what part do you guys NOT understand>>??))

QuietSith
06-21-2002, 11:49 AM
#1 All you have done is make speculations about the contract that exists between Raven and LucasArts - you offer no proof.

#2 LucasArts STILL owns JK2 - your analogy is so bad it's not worth even going over.

#3 Everytime I ask you for proof in your statements, you offer none.

Stop trolling. Thanks.

Cobalt60
06-21-2002, 12:07 PM
the only speculation I've made is :
the development contract was NOT open-ended
(and the contract has been fulfilled at this point)

therefore, I "speculate" that there ~IS NO~ contract
that exists between the two parties at this point in time




and , yes , the analogy is poor (lets change it, shall we?)

Perhaps our friend George hasn't SOLD his house..
..he's only LEASED the property to a local gay couple : "Mr.XavierBox" and his friend "Mac.N.Tosh"

(better?)

Darth Knight
06-21-2002, 12:25 PM
You guys are retards, if you hate LA so bad don't play the game. You complain too much

Twins of Doom
06-21-2002, 12:29 PM
why give raven the right to the game?

it's a ****ing star wars game, who knows more aobut star wars, lucasarts (a star wars company) or raven (a company)

heh, just doesn't make sense does it

QuietSith
06-21-2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Cobalt60
the only speculation I've made is :
the development contract was NOT open-ended
(and the contract has been fulfilled at this point)

therefore, I "speculate" that there ~IS NO~ contract
that exists between the two parties at this point in time




and , yes , the analogy is poor (lets change it, shall we?)

Perhaps our friend George hasn't SOLD his house..
..he's only LEASED the property to a local gay couple : "Mr.XavierBox" and his friend "Mac.N.Tosh"

(better?)

No, because the conditions of the contract are still purely speculation.

I'm only basing all this on what we 'know' - based on evidence, not on pure theory and fantasy.

QuietSith
06-21-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Twins of Doom
why give raven the right to the game?

it's a ****ing star wars game, who knows more aobut star wars, lucasarts (a star wars company) or raven (a company)

heh, just doesn't make sense does it

"Interview with Michael Chang Gummelt" [Raven Dev]

Could you tell us a little about the development cycle of Jedi Outcast and at what time you started to code for the game?
Well, I guess Activision knew we were going to do it a lot longer than most of us here at Raven did… I didn’t find out about it until January of 2001. But we were working on the Elite Force expansion pack at the time and didn’t finish that until about May. So I’d say I started work on Jedi Knight in maybe March or April of 2001, then really seriously got started in May. It was a great decision by our team, I think, to build off of all the stuff we’d done on Elite Force when making Jedi Knight II (as opposed to starting over from scratch). It made the process go much, much faster and much smoother than it would have. I firmly believe we would never have finished the game in less than a year if we hadn’t had the 2 years of work on Elite Force to build on. "

http://modcentral.jediknightii.net/changkhan.php

The foundation of the code was built from Raven's ST:EF game.

They know the game code inside and out. You can see a lot of ST:EF in JK 2.

QuietSith
06-21-2002, 01:04 PM
I would think you would want Raven in more control:

#1 We know Raven wants to produce another patch - that's evident from the quotes of the interview with dev.

#2 We don't know what LucasArts wants.

In summary, if Raven has more control, we can pretty much 'assume' there will be another patch - obviously, it's been expressed.

Cobalt60
06-21-2002, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by QuietSith
What I don't understand is why anyone wouldn't want Raven in control.

1) Raven screwed up the game in the first place.
they should not be allowed to write another patch.

2) Raven has a product (SoF2) on the shelf right now, as we speak,
which ~competes~ with JK2
(so Raven has a financial incentive, to make JK2 as ~bad~ as it can possibly be)

3) LucasArts Entertainment has competent programmers of their own, on their own staff.
and they know Star Wars better than .. well.. anyone.

4) Raven has already releasd the source code ,
so now even "JohnQ.Public" can write a new patch for this game.



therefore :

5) LucasArts should develop the next patch ~THEMSELVES~ (who needs Raven?)

5b) Raven should never be allowed to mess with this game again.

QuietSith
06-21-2002, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Cobalt60


1) Raven screwed up the game in the first place.
they should not be allowed to write another patch.

2) Raven has a product (SoF2) on the shelf right now, as we speak,
which ~competes~ with JK2
(so Raven has a financial incentive, to make JK2 as ~bad~ as it can possibly be)

3) LucasArts Entertainment has competent programmers of their own, on their own staff.
and they know Star Wars better than .. well.. anyone.

4) Raven has already releasd the source code ,
so now even "JohnQ.Public" can write a new patch for this game.



therefore :

5) LucasArts should develop the next patch ~THEMSELVES~ (who needs Raven?)

5b) Raven should never be allowed to mess with this game again.

Again, everything you are saying is purely speculation.

You are accusing Raven of intentionally messing up the game?

What kind of BS is that?

Are you posting to get attention?

Star Wars has little to do with the actual code - it's all just a Q3 engine game and ST:EF game code + Ghoul 2, etc, with Star Wars theme based sounds and models, and you don't know that any of the LucasArts programmers understand the JK 2 code.

It's amazing how many disinformative troll posts you can make.

Do you have anything to say that is a 'matter of fact' whatsoever?

Raven CREATED the game - somethings were messed up.

What part of this QUOTE do YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

"What, if anything, would you like to say about the negative reaction by a part of the community to the latest patch?

I’d have to say some people have some valid points about a couple things that can be exploited and I’d love to get a few fixes out there… and some people are a bit misinformed about what the patch actually did. In the end, though, that decision is up to LucasArts, not us, so all I can do is cross my fingers with the rest of you, really."

http://modcentral.jediknightii.net/changkhan.php

He (Raven dev) wants to fix the game and it is up to LucasArts.

You sir, are completely trolling with non-factual, purely speculative, BS, that is completely meaningless.

Go away now, thanks.

StormHammer
06-21-2002, 02:20 PM
Okay, people, let's try to calm down shall we? You've both stated your opinions, and I think it's time to agree to disagree. The simple fact is that some people liked JK2 (MP) as it was out of the box, others didn't. Yes, there were some bugs that required fixing, and in my view an obvious need for a patch...or two. However, the inherent problem with producing a patch is that invariably they don't just fix the things that need to be fixed, they tweak the gameplay according to the feedback from the community. There is always a danger in the latter in that some people like the gameplay as is, and see no need for tweaks, so when it gets tweaked, they get annoyed.

From what I've seen and read so far on these forums, this is almost approaching the RUNE scenario, where the dev of that game introduced gameplay tweaks to the disconcert of some in that game's community. They can't please everyone, and frankly, nor should they try.

From where I'm sitting, it makes perfect economic sense for Raven to produce the best-quality games they possibly can. If they don't, they won't sell. If they don't sell, they don't make money. It's as simple as that. It makes no sense to me that they would intentionally make a bad game. If nothing else, that hurts their reputation, and makes bad business sense. The only problem I ever saw with JKII's development, was the short development time given to the project. Given the relatively short timescale, I think Raven did an excellent job getting a relatively polished product out the door, with some very good gameplay.

Also, in my experience, a developer will usually try and support their game, regardless of further payment. This has been seen many times in development teams that have been disassembled, yet still work together in their own time to make patches for games they love. Making games is a labour of love, and an art...and I can fully understand someone taking pride in their work. However, when someone else has commissioned you to develop a game, they call the shots. There has to be an agreement for you to be able to continue development in the form of patches. That means the ball is currently in Lucasarts' court...but if you put yourself in their shoes, for a moment, you'd be thinking very carefully about any further gameplay tweaks. As I stated above, gameplay tweaks can have the unfortunate side-effect of dividing the gaming community, and you end up with the version camps sniping at each other. The answer is usually to run servers with the version you like...or get used to the changes, and find ways to counter problems.

Now, as has been stated, Lucasarts commissioned the game, so they own it, and make all the decisions regarding it's further development. Blaming either company for perceived shortcomings in recently released patches doesn't achieve anything. Perhaps there was an error in the creation of the latest patch, or maybe not. But as I said before, no matter what gameplay tweaks are introduced in further patches, there will always be part of the community that does not agree with them - and care should be taken when looking at feedback, or there is the potential danger of ruining the gameplay by trying to balance it to please everyone.

To finish, Lucasarts is unlikely to simply hand over future development of JKII to Raven. Yes, they commissioned Raven to make the game, but it is their game...they have the license to make Star Wars products, and I would assume they will remain the only company with those rights. From that viewpoint, it would be dangerous to give full control over a product to any other third party...because you are responsible for ensuring the content matches certain criteria, including certain quality standards. That means this poll will have little impact on the relationship between Raven and Lucasarts, and the game will remain the property (and responsibility) of Lucasarts. Sorry.

I've probably said enough, and that's just my personal viewpoint, based on speculation. :)

QuietSith
06-21-2002, 02:27 PM
I see your point, well taken.

I always figured that server side options were the way to go - simply allow people to reverse gameplay changes that weren't exploits and cheats.

However, the backstab thing - from what I can tell - doesn't divide the community - it seems that both sides (1.02 and 1.03 players) think it's a bad thing and should be patched/fixed.

Otherwise yes, it's very difficult to release patches - though much easier if they simply give us a whole load of cvars (that report to master servers) and let the community decide on the options.

My last post for awhile - thank you for responding moderator.

:)

Colonel O'Neill
06-22-2002, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by Twins of Doom
why give raven the right to the game?

it's a ****ing star wars game, who knows more aobut star wars, lucasarts (a star wars company) or raven (a company)

heh, just doesn't make sense does it

the fact that it is a star wars game does not mean anything what so ever, who knows more about games, raven or LA?

The game was more or less COMPLEATLY createb by raven and they know their own games inside out. If anything, raven if they wanted to could terminate the contract and the game would not be sold anymore and this could be a threat to LA to get them to let them make a patch. I Myself went back to 1.02 coz 1.03 was awfull! Thats only because of the time constrictions that LA gave them. Give them another chance and i bet raven will iron out all their creases!

Cobalt60 - The agreement states that raven fund themselfs and that lucasarts are in control of their updates. I would also like you to submit a game entirly created by lucasarts, or near compleatly created by them....

emorog
06-22-2002, 05:50 AM
Well spoken StormHammer. It's a very import point you make about listening to feedback. Often, for every person yelling on the boards they want feature X changed, there is another person happily playing the game enjoying feature X.

L3onheart
06-22-2002, 06:24 AM
Well people, you can all forget about LA given power to Raven

This just in from Raven's forums, from a request to create a support forum for JK2 in their forums:

"Lucas will not allow us to create forums here to support the product. Sorry, there is nothing else I can do."

emorog
06-22-2002, 06:33 AM
We already have THESE forums! why would you want another seperate set?

QuietSith
06-22-2002, 04:00 PM
Someone just said Raven is to blame... up the thread goes.

L3onheart
06-23-2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by emorog
We already have THESE forums! why would you want another seperate set?

Because these forums are filled with whiners. A forum in Raven's own forums would be better. Do you still think that most of Raven's employees come here? They've given up on all the people here, because of the maturity of some certain people here.

Haradim
06-23-2002, 08:41 PM
A change of venue would mean the same crowd in a new setting, unless you somehow managed to keep it secret. Though I haven't spent much time on the Raven forums, I doubt they have any more restriction against 'whining' than the admins do here.

As for whether the devs still come here, well, I know from experience in other games that, chances are, they still keep an eye on this place, low maturity or not...just not an active voice.