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SpyCatcher
06-19-2002, 12:41 PM
about this game. I think I speak for many.

1. Absorb
2. Speed
3. Script
4. backwards kill

This may be a average / good game but you do not see thousands and thousands online playing. Everyone is playing counter-strike.

ShockV1.89
06-19-2002, 12:53 PM
1. Sort of necessary, although I suppose it could use some tweaks.

2. Why is this bad? Its fully expected that Jedi have this, and I've never run into a problem with it. Not like you hear calls of "SPEED WHORE!!!!!!!111" or anything.

3. LAME LAME LAME. I totally agree.

4. Also lame, although not on the same level of lameness. Bad ass fighters are fun, since you get to watch them chase you down long hallways. Good(?) ass fighters are just annoying.

ShockV1.89

Old_Ben
06-19-2002, 01:10 PM
Yes, bad ass fighters are fun, but it gets old real quick when every server is full of pull sweepers.

CapNColostomy
06-19-2002, 01:19 PM
I mean no offense, but I can't see why "everyone" would play CS. I know tons of people do. I just can't figure out why. I thought that game blew bigtime. I like the Delta Force series WAY better. I hate tiny maps, and running at 50 miles per hour. Doom was as good as CS FFS. JKII RULES! (or owns, or pwnz whatever that means, or RoXOrs whatever the hell that is)

ShockV1.89
06-19-2002, 01:24 PM
Didnt notice that last part about Counterstrike...

Good for everyone who plays Counterstrike. Does that mean its better? Not necessarily. Some people like different kinds of games. The average CS player cant play for **** in a faster paced game like JK or UT. (not saying EVERY CS player, just a lot)

Saying "Everyone is playing CS, its better" is retarded...

ShockV1.89

Old_Ben
06-19-2002, 01:39 PM
CS isn't better because everyone plays it. It's better because it seems like there's a new update for it every day unlike JKII... uh let's not get into that.

Homosexual Ewok
06-19-2002, 02:03 PM
Notice how with the last two recent updates CS lost a pretty big chunk of its players.
I wonder if the won id/cd key ban stuff for cheating that was implemented has anything to do with that.
That and the OGC crew called it quits.
Nah couldn't be. People don't play CS because it's so easy to install OGC and get 50 kills the first time you play on a public server, do they?

CapNColostomy
06-19-2002, 02:14 PM
Some people don't play it at all! I actually am embarassed to say I bought that piece of $#!+ a couple years back and I tried to like it. But the maps were about as big as my bedroom, and most of the servers you couldn't join with the game out of the box. Now here comes the "the mods are half the fun! you can spray paint dirty words on the walls after you shoot someone!" Screw the mods. And screw the spray painting phuqwithanfinsteadofph. Doesn't impress me. I can do that without spending all day downloading crap. Mods for JKII however...Oh how I love them.

SpyCatcher
06-20-2002, 11:58 AM
I know its only a game but the "absorb" thing really brothers me most players are now using script in this order "absorb + push or pull + absorb backwards kill". What really brothers me is they are jumping while doing all this. When I do this manually it is impossible.

Best script I have seen is right after a player gets hit with the saber or gun "drain + absorb + pull + absorb + backwards kill"

In any of the movies did you ever see any jedi / sith use the absorb other than Yoda? I could be wrong but I don't think so plus yoda is not part of the game.

Additionally

Have you seen any jedi / sith use "speed" force in any movie?

There should be at least 10 diferent ways to multiply to a kill versus one single kill move. I know you would then get everyone spinning wildly for a while but once you mastered using the force with the saber the game may be more fun to play.

Scripts are like cheats they should be disabled it takes away fun for the casual gamer.

Lastly... that tuck & roll move has to go, people use this move without even running.....lame lame coding.

I hope Raven or Lucas Arts react before the game dies.

CapNColostomy
06-20-2002, 12:08 PM
Episode I The Phantom Menace: Qui Gon Jinn AND Obi Wan Kenobi used "force speed" to escape the stand off with the destroyer droids.

Episode V The Empire Strikes Back: Darth Vader used absorb on Han Solos blaster shots, then used pull to take the blaster.

Hope I cleared that up for you.

SpyCatcher
06-20-2002, 12:43 PM
I'm going to have to go back and watch that lame dvd movie part 1 for that sceen. Thanks or updating me.

It was my opinion Vadar used a push to block if you look frame by frame you can seen the bullets rioching off his hand.

Thanks for informing me....

intoxictd
06-20-2002, 01:08 PM
Best script I have seen is right after a player gets hit with the saber or gun "drain + absorb + pull + absorb + backwards kill"

"Drain + Absorb"???? Is that even possible. Drain is darkside and absorb is light side.

yoda is not part of the game.

Does yoda having ABSORB mean no other Jedi can possibly be adept with this force power?

Vader used "force protect" in Empire Strikes Back. I would think that in the movies, "protect" and "absorb" are the same. They both protect you from harm by absorbing it.

Chastan
06-20-2002, 02:58 PM
Most people are retarded. That's why most people are playing counter-strike. Have a nice day.

SpyCatcher
06-20-2002, 10:24 PM
Let's get back on course people and to the real issue.

Absorb
Speed
Script
tuck n roll
Backwards kill

These fuctions within the game take away fun for the casual gamer thereby forcing the casual gamer to buy/play another product. JO has tremoundous potential to be a game that will be played for years my reference in comparing JO to CS is a multiplayer statement "you do not see thousands of people playing JO online only several hundred".

Nobodi Kenobi
06-21-2002, 12:38 AM
SpyCatcher

But eventhough JK is a smaller community compared to CS...

That's a GOOD thing in my opinion.

Just like the saying goes, quality versus quantity.

I'm not trying to flame you, but I also commented that I think the JK community is a FAR more mature and respectful group of players and individuals (Moders, Mappers, Skinners, etc) than the CS community.

I still play CS and am fairly good, but to me, all CS is on public servers right now is practice for Clans versus just being a casual game experience.

So in other words, to have a fairly good time, you HAVE to be at a certain skill level of you will be "pwned" - owned - as the kiddies say (this is also why cheats and hacks are so popular on public servers with CS).

And while JK requires skill - any game requires skill to be proficient at - I don't think it takes AS much work as CS because of the way the games are designed.

In essence (getting back on topic)...

The things you mention HELP - to a certain degree - Even out the playing field since you have all these tools at your disposal.

When I say tools I don't mean the imbalances or the scripts that currently exist, I mean the ORIGINAL Force powers and moves that were presented to you when you bought the game.

Aside from some RPGs... I have not seen a game with THIS many options to HELP you as a character/player. In addition, I also think that Raven/L.A. was smart in that not only with the pure server option of the QIII engine, but the fact that a lot of these force powers ressemble "cheats" and "hacks" themselves so they simply CODED THEM INTO THE GAME to give everyone the same advantage.

As you may or may not know, CS has a Speed Hack problem. JK addressed that by making it a part of the game. Wallhacking (seeing through walls) was another popular cheat. Well, JK has Force Seeing in MP which lets you - surprise - See through walls.

I'm not saying the idea for the Force powers was to counter cheats or hackers by any means... But it is ironic how they parallel the most popular hacks and if you give everyone the same "hacks" as part of the initial game right out of the box, then there should be no need to code hacks and third-party cheats, right?

Scripting is something different.

I personally don't think it is cheating.

Yes, it is "lame" in that someone doesn't have the reflexes or coordination to chain the moves together with their hands and keyboard... But I don't consider scripts to be on the same level as hacks like OGC.

I use a "walk toggle" script that lets me switch from walking to running with one key instead of having to hold down the walk/run key.

Is that a cheat?

No. Walking actually puts me at a DISADVANTAGE as most battles are so fast and furious that walking = death.

The reason I have it is that I am a NF Dueler and moset duels start out with walking, bowing and then either running or slowly walking as a way of intimidating your opponent... And I was getting sick of having to hit an extra button for this.

Now, of course, the debate about scripting is chaining moves together.... Which I think is lames as well. However, I think in NF Dueling that is harder to do because you're already being limited in what you can use (no force powers = less things to chain).

I've gone onto Force enabled FFA servers and you can TELL when someone is scripting because they often "show off" doing a spin-dance or whatever... So I try and avoid them.

Bottom line, find a style (NF, Duel, FFA, Team FFA, CTF) of game play that best suits you and stick with it the imbalances that currently exist CAN be limited depending on current Mods and style of game you like to play.

SpyCatcher
06-21-2002, 01:43 AM
Nobodi Kenboi: I did not take your response as a flame.

I would like to further discuss items in your response. I to played CS for a very long time in fact I was in one the top rated clans while nearly all of the members used hacks I choose not to "I believe any time you cheat it is a reflection of persons character in my opinion it is "all" most us will every have in our lifetime". I guess I just grew up.

You are correct the force powers do somewhat reflect hacks/cheats they're a important/fun part of jedi outcast however when they are combined using script they become cheats. Products/games are not designed for the hardcore they are designed for the average player who wants to have fun for 30 minutes to a hour. The average player is the lifeline of any game "they in reality represent the percentage who actually purchased the game" their perpection is what sells products. To reverse that order would be navie.

If Raven/Lucas arts wants scripts to be part of their product they should make them available to everyone (easy to find) that way there is no reason to bring the issue to the forefront.

To summarize "I do not care anymore who is better than me it is merely a game for enjoyment" I just get tired of playing with people take advantage of poor coding. The lack of or slow response by either or both Raven/Lucas arts has me considering another product...

CapNColostomy
06-21-2002, 02:30 AM
I constantly look for other products, but not because of my disatisfaction with JKII. CS's had almost three years to build it's community. JKII's barely had three months. I'm not saying in time it'll be more popular than CS, because it's an apples and oranges thing.

SpyCatcher
06-21-2002, 01:32 PM
I do not purchase that many new games each year...

Guess eveyone got a marketing lesson reguarding this post...

Lord_PhilMil
06-22-2002, 04:29 AM
I think everyone hates absorb and ass fighters

Isildur29
06-22-2002, 04:53 AM
If you're gonna get rid of absorb, you have to drop at least lightning then too. grip you can break w/ push and drain isn't all that bad, but lightning is indefensible w/out absorb and it takes zero skill to spam kill w/ it as an area attack.

as for "most players are now using script in this order "absorb + push or pull + absorb backwards kill". What really brothers me is they are jumping while doing all this. When I do this manually it is impossible. "

No, "most" players aren't doing this. "Most" players don't use scripts.

And, for the ever present B/S - <sigh> much foolish "debate" over this. Since it ISN'T undodgeable, I think some of y'all need to just freakin cool it w/ your b!tching. It IS possible to get pulled/pushed and jump/flip/kick out of the b/s. I haven't been b/s killed in quite a while.
Is it easy? Nope.
Is that reason enough to tweak it? <shrug> Maybe, perhaps even probably. But since is isn't a SURE KILL, quit griping and LEARN how to evade it like you're supposed to.

If you are really that upset over push/pull/bs spam, then run your own server on nf or put in your server comments that you will boot people for using the string. And then do it.

But please, spare us the b!tching about how cheap this move and absorb are if you are out there lightning spamming crowds and force gripping people off of ledges for a living.

Lord Sokar
06-22-2002, 04:55 AM
HEY OLD_BEN!!!

Where you been lately dude? I haven't seen you around NuclearFallout in ages!

Please tell me you haven't taken the plunge into 1.03 lameness, have you?

Come visit us sometime.

Johner
06-22-2002, 05:12 AM
The game should be about who's the best DURING the game. None of this; whoever can find/configure the best scripts, skins, and all the other crap you can download online. Given that either way skill does matter but the aformentioned exploits can give you a HUGE advantage.

I think scripts are exploiting the same goes for skins ANY SKINS.

Anyways, if these things can go away in future patches or in future games then they should.

SpyCatcher
06-22-2002, 06:35 AM
Isildur29: You sound like a somewhat intelliget person let's be frank...who is navie about scripts? just you or the entire JO community? Scripts have/are/always been part of any game. Peolpe alway are looking for ways to improve their poor coordination.

Is it foolish to post about coding flaws "maybe"! it may be even more foolish to repond ranting about those who are discussing a concern but that is another topic.

Isildur29, boba fett c3po since you have made yourself somewhat of the expert here is my question to each of you:

What is the best offenseive / defensive tatic to evade "Asbsorb or assfighting? I would hope your response will be detailed.

Kurgan
06-23-2002, 01:55 AM
I disagree, I think those things listed were totally fair and cool!

technobot
06-23-2002, 07:02 AM
1. I like absorb... might be a LITTLE too strong, but does ANYONE remember 1.02 drain? All the full-force duel servers were about guys running around, draining all your force, and then gripping you to death, or a DFA for variety. And because Absorb was SO underpowered, he would just wait for you to run around, try to push/pull him, let your force meter expire and then grip you to death. If you don't remember this phenomenon, let me summarize by saying absorb is now the lesser of two evils... it needs balance but don't remove it from the game, that will make the light side a non-choice again. BTW: Darth Vader wasn't deflecting the shots with absorb, since absorb counters THE FORCE. He was deflecting the shots with his mechanical hand, from the arm cut off by Dooku at the end of AOTC.

2. Remove force speed? Why? It's great for team based games esp. CTF. And yes it's been mentioned, but it's in the movies. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan both use it to escape the droidekas at the beginning of TPM, and Obi-Wan looks like he's on it after Qui-Gon is slain by Darth Maul (or that just might be rage, not dark rage, but the kind of rage you experience after seeing you mentor killed). Besides, the cost (half your force meter) is a good balance for its benefits.

3. Scripts... well no s**t Sherlock. Unlike backsweeps and DFA in 1.02, this is a legitimate exploit, i.e. cheating. Yes, I've encountered many guys using pull/throw scripts, kick scripts, and backsweep scripts (the one where they turn a million times, guaranteeing 5 hits). I've gotten thrash by some of the scripties, but I've defeated my fair share. Am I a pro? Definitely not, but I'm pretty decent at the game (guess what: I played that unofficial 1.04 no ass-fighting mod, and I still kicked some serious ass, so don't call me "ass-fighter"). I look at it as a challenge to beat a guy that has all the good scripts. And I've played enough scripties that even without the scripts, would have kicked my ass and the asses of most of the guys on this forum... they just use them because they want to get a rise out of people (it works).

4. Backsweeping is the single greatest point of contention regarding the 1.03 patch. Have you ever played Street Fighter 2? When I first started playing (I'm from a small town) NO ONE knew how to do any of the "specials", i.e. Dragon Punch, Fireball, Guile Kick, whatever. The guys that knew how to perform these moves were called "cheesy" by the unskilled players. I would dare say that most of the people who b***h about backsweep would be in this category back then, just because they didn't how to do the move. Then something miraculous happened: most of the regular players learned how to do the moves, and guess what: the good players (the ones who knew the moves first) still won. I love this statement that: any newb can do backsweep and win a board. What a f@@cking joke. The correct statement is: Any newb can do backsweep and win a board filled by other newbs.

The biggest complaint the whiners on the internet make is: well anyone can win a FFA, and that (this is my favourite part) the medicore players consistently win FFAs. This makes me believe that whiners = retards. True, anyone can win a FFA... however when the same guy wins 5 boards in a row, with a variety of different (and increasingly skilled) opponents in succession, I'd hate to say it kids, but that's demonstrative of SKILL. I go on servers frequently where everyone backsweeps, esp. the newbs, but the backsweeping newbs ARE THE EASIEST to kill. I lost to a guy who won 4 straight boards, and even though I could kill him consistently, it would just pad his score because he would spawn beside 5 scrubs and he'd kill them all in a wink. So I might have been able to defeat him 1on1 but I'd dare say his overall skills were higher if he could kill so consistently and quickly.

Yeah, pull/backsweep is easy to do, and yeah, I fall prey to it. And backsweep is easy to do, but I like the tension of two backsweepers dueling (not ass-fighters), because all it takes is ONE SIMPLE MISTAKE and the duel is over, instead of this b@@@s@@t with two blue/yellow stance hackers whacking away with some lame-ass infinitely chained combo nicking away at each other with a winner finally being declared at the 6 minute mark. Contrast that with my previous example, with two true masters, feeling each other out, waiting for that opening which will end the contest.

I used to "whore" fireball in SF2, and I used to whore DFA in 1.02, and now I whore backsweep in 1.03, and I mix it up in 1.04 (which is far from perfect despite what many of the posters would tell you)... I can adjust to each patch. I God Honest hope there will be another patch but until then, I'm going to play my style. I love the whiners who say, "Well you're not playing honourably", or "You have no skill" after I've killed the same idiot 15 times straight. These same guys will ask for a duel and will then complain when they walk into my first backsweep (which is the biggest sign of a newb) or complain about "all you do is throw the saber".

Last point: have you watched the players who "don't backsweep because it's killing the game"? Most of these guys spam DFA instead, wow that's variety. Or even better, the infamous infinite-chained blue/yellow combo of ineptitude, wow that's stylish, the chicken with it's head-cut-off style of fighting, truly indicative of skill (sarcasm). To all you backsweep haters, keep praying for another patch/play on private servers/just don't play at all and stop ruining the game with your whining. To all the backsweep whores, keep doing what works for you/try to help the newbies out/remember to adjust if that patch ever comes out.
I've found that most newbies don't complain, they simply ask you how killed them. You explain it, they try it out, you teach them other tricks. It's the guys who can't adjust who bitch about the game, not the newbs... these same guys bitched about the railgun in Quake2/3, bitch about instant death head-shots in CS, bitch about getting rushed in Starcraft, basically bitch about anything that kills them.

Lunatic Jedi
07-21-2002, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
Didnt notice that last part about Counterstrike...

Good for everyone who plays Counterstrike. Does that mean its better? Not necessarily. Some people like different kinds of games. The average CS player cant play for **** in a faster paced game like JK or UT. (not saying EVERY CS player, just a lot)

I suppose I fit into that minority. Not to toot my own horn, but I'm pretty good in both. And I only started playing CS yesterday. I'm probably gonna get flamed like hell for this, but I have to say, I love it! I'm not saying its better than JKII, however. Truth be told, they're neck and neck. Plus, after I finished with CS a few hours ago to play JKII just to make sure I wasn't losing my touch, and I still got it! :D

I still have my JKII skills, I'm getting pretty good at CS, and now I have two games that I love! Everything's comin' up roses! :D

Oh and BTW, I bought CS four days ago, but couldn't play it until yesterday cause I had to download all the damn patches (stupid 56k). :rolleyes:

Spazmatic
07-21-2002, 05:42 AM
1. Absorb is not lame. Absorb is my favorite force power... Why? Because I turn it on and level the playing field, saber against saber. I don't want to get gripped and thrown off, or to be pulled down and bsed. I want a fight where I can usee combination attacks and feints and kick the other guy(s)' ass(es). I hardly see how that is lame.

2. Speed, lame? Speed to run away is, uhm, perfectly logical. Speed in combat may be a bit difficult to counter for a newbie, but is easy enough to deal with with a little practice (so easy that it becomes a very ineffectual power to use in such a situation).

3. Depends. Scripts come in many forms. Metabinding, for example, is perfectly fine and fair. Nothing wrong with adding more keys to the keyboard. A script to say "Stay away, we're dueling!" seems a very good idea to me. On the other hand, a script that allows you to saber+pull+kick a point-blank is stupid. And there are lots of examples of those too.

4. Yep. Though, in 1.04, they kinda overly hurt bs. It doesn't really work AS a backstab anymore (when I'm snuck up on, it's better for me to turn around than backstab). If you ask me, the problem is the concept of unblockability. Any existing move would be perfectly fine if none were unblockable. The problem with kick now (and why it's spammed) is unblockability. It makes no sense that a Jedi doesn't at least have a chance (a low chance, perhaps, but a chance) of blocking a move. That would severely lower the power of whores.

In the end, though, a balanced, skilled player takes a game in 1.04, just like they could take a game in 1.03. Absorb effectively stopped pull+bs, an in a power-less fight, someone who knows all the moves and when to execute them is much better off than an assfighter (example: medium dfa is quite good against ass-fighters if timed right).

Just my 2 cents.

Canis_Aureus
07-21-2002, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by SpyCatcher
about this game. I think I speak for many.

1. Absorb
2. Speed
3. Script
4. backwards kill

This may be a average / good game but you do not see thousands and thousands online playing. Everyone is playing counter-strike.

1. It works perfectly. Without it the game would degenerate into lightning contests and the light side would not stand a chance... this is their only defence and it's not overpowered at all.

2. Well while it's annoying not being able to follow someone using speed when you're not using it yourself.... you can't really complain... you will have other forces. Besides I have NEVER experienced any problems with speed.

3. Yeah well some people want to win and not have fun doing it all by themselves.

4. I don't care really :)


I like the game and it's almost perfect... a few tweaks and it will be there.

1. In a FFA duel both participants health and armor should be set at 100/25 and the winner should get this too.

2. Make a hardcore mode where there is no shield/health on the map.

Keiran-Halcyon
07-22-2002, 03:23 PM
A few things about Absorb:

1) Jedi in the SW Universe can use it not only to absorb force powers, but also to absorb other energies including blastebolts. Vader does use absorb on Solos blaster.

2) I think tahat absorb in the game is quite well balanced. U can use it againts those constant pull+backstab scripters. And it is also the only counter to many darkside powers. It can also give you a quite good saber only duel. If it werent for the lightsaber, JK2 would be nothing more than another QUAKE3/UT/CS game, guns are not bad, they add a little variety to the game, but players that use them too much should rather try QUAKE3.

Speed:
I dont see whats the problem with that.

Mudaka
07-22-2002, 03:53 PM
vader did not use absorb in empire strikes back



the books say that vaders (left or right?) glove is indestructable, and it becomes the symbol for the new empire after he dies...

just though I would clear it up for YOU

Spider AL
07-22-2002, 04:04 PM
The expanded universe books are not primary canon, and frankly they're full of <insert derogatory phrase here.>

"Super duper gloves." "Magic sith gauntlets."

Pfft. But then again, old George is full of <insert derogatory phrase here> as well. Mondo-chluribangs. Jar-Head Binks. But frankly, nothing has appalled me more than the "vader's speshal gloves" thingy.

It was force absorb.

/me puts a blindfold on so that he won't have to read any opinions which diverge from his.

FatalStrike
07-22-2002, 04:38 PM
absorb is fine! People who whine about absorb just can't stand having to fight for a kill without gripping and using lightning.

Now for a real Things I hate list!

1 - Jar Jar Binks (do you need to know why? didn't think so)

2 - Counter Strike, lame graphics and cheesy gameplay..nuff said

3 - People who come to JKII forums to tell us about how much better CS is.

4 - People that write gay like this--> "ghey"

5 - People who write OWNED after every kill they get

6 - Kill tracker, I hate this stupid thing.

7 -People that tell noobs to try this cool skin "Galak_mech/default" knowing that its just going to screw up thier computer

8 -People who steal the flag in CTF and just to hide and never come out again, not even to score. (killing them is #1 on my favorite things about this game list)

9 -Nerfing everything

10 -People who support Nerfing everything