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NK_Zephorath
06-26-2002, 01:48 AM
Visit: http://dev.wdonline.com
and http://forums.wdonline.com for more info.

What is JK2++?

JK2++ is a server-side modification of Jedi KnightII: Jedi Outcast. No client-side download is required.
Our Goal

To enhance the gameplay of Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast, primarly with Force tweaks (mostly neutral), while adding a higher level of fun.
About the Team

The developers of JK2++ are:

[WD]Rage
[WD]ToRMeNt

We are all hardcore gamers coming from all walks of gaming life. We played Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight religously for years, primarly focusing on Full Force Battle Ground Jedi and Full Force Canyon Oasis.
What Has Been Changed

In our current version, the following are changed:

* Duration Force Powers Any duration force power can be terminated immediately instead of waiting 1.5 seconds.

* Neutral Force Powers Speed
o Mana cost brought down from 50 to 20
o Increase in speed by 10%
o Lasts for 10, 20, or 30 seconds dependant upon force level
* Sight
o Lasts for 10, 15, or 25 seconds dependant upon force level
* Jump
o Mana cost cut by 50%
o Is now slightly faster

* Dark Force Powers Grip
o Distance changed from 256 to 315
* Drain
o Mana cost cut by 30%

* Light Force Powers Heal
o Mana cost brought down from 50 to 40
o Increase heal amount to 40

* Sabering Light Stance
o Increase base damage to 50. Damage range from 2 - 50.
* Medium Stance
o Increase base damage to 75. Damage range from 2 - 85.
* Heavy Stance
o Increase base damage to 123. Damage range from 2 - 180.

* All Weapons You can now pick up any weapon, regardless if you're carrying it, and use it for ammo.

* Disrupter Primary Fire
o Increase damage to 70.
o Ammo consumption increased to 20.
o Firing time increased to 2 seconds.
* Secondary Fire
o Increase damage to 120.
o Ammo consumption increased to 42.5 at max charge.

* Destructive Electro-Magnetic Pulse 2 Gun (DEMP) Primary Fire
o Increase damage from 35 to 50.
* Secondary Fire
o Base damage increased from 8 to 12

* Rocket Launcher Rocket Launcher pickup now has 5 rockets.
* Ammo pickup now has 5 rockets.

* Admin Features Slapping
o Slaps the player. Pushes them back and takes damage. Takes a client number (not a name yet) as arguments.
* Renaming
o Rename any player. Takes a client number (not a name yet) and new name for arguments.

* Server Variables g_saberghoul2collision
o Set to a default of 1.
* g_sabertracesaberfirst
o Set to a default of 0.
* g_dismember
o Set to a default of 300.

What Is Left to Change

* Movement Disruptor
o Not sure if it's possible, but movement with scope zoom enabled.
* Miscellaneous
o Not sure if it's possible, but rolling with any weapon.

* Admin Features Make existing and future admin features take both a client name and number.

* Saber Blocking Tighten the blocking up some.
* Make a cvar to enable/disable changed blocking.

Testing

Test Servers:
WD Server - 146.20.43.203:28070
Rage and Honor - 65.113.116.20:28072

More test servers are desired. If interested contact Rage.

Any suggestions, comments, and questions are welcome. We need to extensively test JK2++ to work out any existing bugs and balance the gameplay. We also need to see how it works in CTF, TDM, and duels (after we change the saber aspect).

Lord Nodata
06-26-2002, 01:59 AM
why are there no neutral or negative options in the poll? I hate being force-fed...:p

NK_Zephorath
06-26-2002, 02:33 AM
LOL
It was meant as a joke.
We are looking for any kind of comments.
Be it good, bad, neutral, whatever. We are doing everything we can to make this mod fun for everyone, so PLEASE go to our forums at http://forums.wdonline.com and give us your opinion, because it can make a difference.

GrEEk_OuTcAsT
06-26-2002, 04:09 AM
You make so many changes and many of them are not needed. Most of them unfortunately are newbie changes that are not needed and the only thing they do is to mess the player up with new gameplay styles. The Community has already splitted in many. 1.02, 1.03, SDK 1.03a etc. We need all the community to focus in one gameplay style.

Lucky
06-26-2002, 04:18 AM
You guys haven't actually added anything yet, just fiddled with cvars.

+ is that saberrealistic option giving u trouble? It was crashing me incessantly when i thru it on.



Lucky

Lucky
06-26-2002, 04:28 AM
Also, I got the roll and the disruptor working if you want it. I had to change clientside stuff tho and I've since completely ruined my version of the source, so i'd have to recreate it.

One more thing, I suggest you guys make the wall walking speed the same as whatever speed yer moving at, I did that and it made wall walking much more advantageous if you had speed/rage on.

+ you can bump up the speed to JK levels if you stick people to the ground. Check out the wall walking code again to see how thats done. Thats basically what JK did.

Last thing I was messin with was trying to make it so you could wall walk with a gun, wasn't having a lot of success and then I got really busy with school. Guys might want to consider implementing that.

Last thing, you guys have the ghoul2 cvar enabled yet? That'd help a crapload with most of the damage levels without really having to up them considerably.


Lucky

QuietSith
06-26-2002, 04:39 AM
Updated - now Rage and Honor are Beta 3. :)

NK_Zephorath
06-26-2002, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by GrEEk_OuTcAsT
You make so many changes and many of them are not needed. Most of them unfortunately are newbie changes that are not needed and the only thing they do is to mess the player up with new gameplay styles. The Community has already splitted in many. 1.02, 1.03, SDK 1.03a etc. We need all the community to focus in one gameplay style.

Care to explain? Newbie changes? Excuse my language, but what the **** are you talking about? 1.03 was released because NEWBIES whined about guns, dfa and a load of other things. I'm sorry, but we think 1.03 sucks. It ruined competitive gameplay, screwed guns and unbalanced the force powers. We are making the game more fun for EVERYONE.

Now, have you actually PLAYED the mod? No?

Well the people that have, love it. The most fun I've had in this game, is playing JK2++. Balanced forces, less mana cost, no assfighting, tweaked weapons, faster gameplay. This is what 1.03 SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

Lucky, I haven't done any coding on this, but I don't think we will allow walking while zoomed with disrupter simply because we have already increased the damage, and it would too powerful like that. As for the roll, is that possible while keeping it server side?

http://dev.wdonline.com

QuietSith
06-26-2002, 05:24 AM
Originally posted by Lucky
You guys haven't actually added anything yet, just fiddled with cvars.

+ is that saberrealistic option giving u trouble? It was crashing me incessantly when i thru it on.



Lucky

Linux server here - never a problem with GSD settings.

QuietSith
06-26-2002, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by GrEEk_OuTcAsT
You make so many changes and many of them are not needed. Most of them unfortunately are newbie changes that are not needed and the only thing they do is to mess the player up with new gameplay styles. The Community has already splitted in many. 1.02, 1.03, SDK 1.03a etc. We need all the community to focus in one gameplay style.

Hey genius - 1.03 is the newbie patch.

JK 2 ++ unnewbifies it and removes the spamming exploits that came in 1.03.

Community splitted?

I guess you better go save HL, Q3, and UT:

http://www.gamespy.com/stats/mods.asp?id=15&s=2

http://www.gamespy.com/stats/mods.asp?id=22&s=2

http://www.gamespy.com/stats/mods.asp?id=35&s=1

As you can see they really do stick to the default gameplay. :rolleyes: Uh.. no.

WD_Rage
06-26-2002, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by Lucky
You guys haven't actually added anything yet, just fiddled with cvars.

+ is that saberrealistic option giving u trouble? It was crashing me incessantly when i thru it on.



Lucky

Um, we've only fiddled with 3 cvars. Everything else can't be changed with cvars (at least to my knowledge).

As for the roll and disruptor movement, I figured it would have to be client-side in order for them to work properly. Our main focus has been with keeping the mod server-side. I technically got the rolling and movement with the disruptor working. However, little bugs kept them from working properly. If we ever need to go to a client-side mod, then the bugs will be gone.

WD_Rage
06-26-2002, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by GrEEk_OuTcAsT
You make so many changes and many of them are not needed. Most of them unfortunately are newbie changes that are not needed and the only thing they do is to mess the player up with new gameplay styles. The Community has already splitted in many. 1.02, 1.03, SDK 1.03a etc. We need all the community to focus in one gameplay style.

Maybe you like the nerfed weapons and idiotic "balancing" of the force powers. I, and many others, do not. Because of 1.03 many, many people have stopped playing JK2.

What the community needs is game play that EVERYONE can enjoy, not only one group of the gaming community.

Don't knock it before you try it.

Lucky
06-26-2002, 02:35 PM
As for the roll and disruptor movement, I figured it would have to be client-side in order for them to work properly. Our main focus has been with keeping the mod server-side. I technically got the rolling and movement with the disruptor working. However, little bugs kept them from working properly. If we ever need to go to a client-side mod, then the bugs will be gone.

Both of those you have to modify in the movement file, which is the same file on both the client and the server. Basically, for the disruptor you have rearrange some checks to get it to work, its pretty easy looking back on it. The wall walking and the rolling is also in that file, and its not too hard to get that to work either with a lil effort.

I dunno if that will force clients to dl yer mod or not, but it sounds like you've already changed a number of values in that file, so chances are it wont.


And you know the playerspeed variable? Well wall walking is capped to 200, with a nice comment next to it that says 'walking speed'. If you change that to the player's current movement speed then you don't slow down to wall walk.

Basically, if you have speed on or otherwise, you wall walk at the speed you were running at before you initiated the wall walk.

As for the cvar's comment, everything you've listed is a cvar or a structure member. They're simply values yer tweaking, it doesn't sound like yer adding any new code, just tweaking existant data.

You can only go so far doing that, if you guys can only change values at this point yer in for a long miserable road of learning how to mod q3 effectively.

Even getting the 'rolls with guns' and the 'moving while zoomed' working were difficult for me for that reason. And I didn't add a whole lot to get it to work.

But honestly, the game only needs the ammo un-nerfed and the sabers fiddled with, + a speed boost and it plays better than when it was released.

Finding every variable thats easily identifiable and commented and changing them for the hell of it is a good learning experience, but might not make for a necessary gameplay adjustment.

Ex- Why was the range of grip changed?
Ex2- Why was Jump changed at all?

Also, a lot of interesting and tempting variables in the source are used to initialize other variables, and if you tweak too many of those yer gonna screw up yer source in a way you might not understand how to unravel, much like I did on 3-4 occasions trying to get force jump to emmulate JK. Had to start over with a fresh copy cause i couldn't identify the problem. You might introduce new bugs, so be careful.

And one more thing, I imagine you remembered to take out all of the 1.03a nerfs? Walking backwards, and swinging with a saber were both modified in a fairly annoying way that involved movement in the source.








Lucky

WD_Rage
06-26-2002, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Lucky


Both of those you have to modify in the movement file, which is the same file on both the client and the server. Basically, for the disruptor you have rearrange some checks to get it to work, its pretty easy looking back on it. The wall walking and the rolling is also in that file, and its not too hard to get that to work either with a lil effort.

I dunno if that will force clients to dl yer mod or not, but it sounds like you've already changed a number of values in that file, so chances are it wont.

If anything is editing on the client side, then a download is required, is my understanding. I realize the bg_pmove.c is shared between server and client, but wouldn't any change that could not be handled only by the server (like the rolling and disrutpor movement) require a client download? I got both working with no client-side files, however, little things (saber popping out during a roll, zoom not holding it's FOV during movement) kept me from digging any further; I had other things I needed to get to before I could spend time on them.

As for the cvar's comment, everything you've listed is a cvar or a structure member. They're simply values yer tweaking, it doesn't sound like yer adding any new code, just tweaking existant data.

You can only go so far doing that, if you guys can only change values at this point yer in for a long miserable road of learning how to mod q3 effectively.

I'll say it again - We've only fiddled with 3 cvars:

g_saberghoul2collision
g_sabertracesaberfirst
g_dismember

Everything else isn't a cvar that we've fiddled with. Yes, many changes were simple, but that's no reason to start spouting what you did. With our current goals, not much code has needed to be added. I've had to add some in some places, and I've had to take some out in some places. We're doing what we need. Nothing more, nothing less.

But honestly, the game only needs the ammo un-nerfed and the sabers fiddled with, + a speed boost and it plays better than when it was released.

Finding every variable thats easily identifiable and commented and changing them for the hell of it is a good learning experience, but might not make for a necessary gameplay adjustment.

Ex- Why was the range of grip changed?
Ex2- Why was Jump changed at all?

In your mind, the game only needs those tweaks. In ours, it doesn't. Every change we have made has been a thought out process. We didn't look over the code, find where it was easiest to edit, and say, "Ooooh. I'm going to edit that for the hell of it."

Even before the SDK was released, we already had a list of things we wanted to change. The grip distance and the jump velocities were only two. We have a reason for everything we change, and not one reason was "for the hell of it" or any variation thereof.

And one more thing, I imagine you remembered to take out all of the 1.03a nerfs? Walking backwards, and swinging with a saber were both modified in a fairly annoying way that involved movement in the source.

I'm not a saberist, so I didn't know there were such nerfs. You are the first person to say anything of it to me, at least.

AgentScully
06-27-2002, 12:31 AM
* Sabering Light Stance
o Increase base damage to 50. Damage range from 2 - 50.
* Medium Stance
o Increase base damage to 75. Damage range from 2 - 85.
* Heavy Stance
o Increase base damage to 123. Damage range from 2 - 180.

This is even worse than 1.02, 123 base damage for red?? WTF? This makes red in 1.03 an unstoppable killing machine, specially now that you can do triple combos with it. All you've done is made duel's consist of a dance where the first person to connect with a red swing wins automatically, cuz all you have to do is basically hit once with red then finish with blue. Bleh, i understand what the others in this thread meant by newbie mod. Boy, is it ever!

WD_Rage
06-27-2002, 12:46 AM
Actually, no one's every complained about it (red stance). Besides, the sabers were beefed up in mind to balance the weapons, not with duels in mind. However, when our server has been on duels, many saberists (some of which I asked to test it out) had no problem with getting around red stance. It's powerful, yes, but it ought to be.

As for it being newbie, play it before knocking it.

NK_Zephorath
06-27-2002, 01:48 AM
This is even worse than 1.02, 123 base damage for red?? WTF? This makes red in 1.03 an unstoppable killing machine, specially now that you can do triple combos with it. All you've done is made duel's consist of a dance where the first person to connect with a red swing wins automatically, cuz all you have to do is basically hit once with red then finish with blue. Bleh, i understand what the others in this thread meant by newbie mod. Boy, is it ever!

If you can't avoid the red stance you deserve to die. How bout you come and play on our server and we'll see how you do against 'newbies' ?

QuietSith
06-27-2002, 04:50 AM
Rage,

While I do like about 98% of what JK 2 ++ did - I do however think a couple of things need to be toned down:

Jump is just a wee bit too high - most people on those maps with lots of ledges tend to jump over them, it needs a little toning down - or there needs to be a way to jump less if you do something like tap a few times, etc.

As the guy said in LucasForums:

"This is even worse than 1.02, 123 base damage for red?? WTF? This makes red in 1.03 an unstoppable killing machine, specially now that you can do triple combos with it. All you've done is made duel's consist of a dance where the first person to connect with a red swing wins automatically, cuz all you have to do is basically hit once with red then finish with blue. Bleh, i understand what the others in this thread meant by newbie mod. Boy, is it ever!"

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=646079

After spec'ing people fight and duel, I can see what this guy is talking about.

It's now a red lunge spam fest instead of assfighting.

Perhaps you can tone down the red lunges or make them much more difficult to recover over - meaning a lot longer?

It gets much worse in duels with the lack of saber throw - there is no way to truly get close enough to the red lunger (the recovery time is much too short), in order to saber throw him into punishment for lunging.

I would figure the goal is to make no particular move spammable and abusable and unfortunately, as I'm seeing .. Red lunge is replacing assfighting, - please consider toning it down a bit (or a lot). Also, the option to saber throw in duels will stop a lot of these kinds of moves from being overly spammed.

Thank you.

QuietSith
06-27-2002, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by NK_Zephorath


If you can't avoid the red stance you deserve to die. How bout you come and play on our server and we'll see how you do against 'newbies' ?

You know the same could be said about assfighting.

What's the point in beta testing if you are just going to flame people for offering the criticism that is requested!?!?

I think it's cool you are advertising the mod (with my server as one of the testers) but very uncool if you criticise people who are offering their ideas about it. That's a major turn off.

NK_Zephorath
06-27-2002, 06:48 AM
While advertising the JK 2 ++ mod is great, and it's in beta (meaning wanting suggestions etc.) on the LucasForums and elsewhere I notice if a person launches any criticism they simply get super flamed back.

You're right, we want suggestions and constructive criticism. We DO NOT want people calling our mod 'newbie' or flamming us despite the efforts that we have made, and they have not.


It's now a red lunge spam fest instead of assfighting.

Did you play 1.02? People spammed all of the time, and people learned to stop it. It was not a big deal at all. You wanna know what I did? As soon as they left the ground, I did a DFA myself, and each time, I'd land right on their hand. That would teach 'em for a while. In 1.02, you could kill people with your saber stuck in the ground, and the DFA damage was ALWAYS a 1-hit kill, I don't think that people would spam it because red damage has increased, because DFA damage has not.

Red stance is slower than yellow and blue, and I am always switching between them. In 1.02 I could take anyone using red only, without DFA, because I knew the stance very well. Not many people are using the other stances yet because in 1.03 they sucked, and aren't used to the new damage yet.

Another thing, this mod was not designed for dueling. Its primary focus was to fix competitive ctf, and it is doing a great job of that. We need saber damage to be higher, in order to have a chance against gunners. It needs to be possible for a saberist to defeat and gunner, and now it is. Quite a few times I've been cut down by a saberist who just pulled me in and slashed. If we reduce damage again, saberists will be at a further disadvantage. The problem is finding a compromise.

Personally I'd rather see people spamming red stance than spamming DFA. However, if we reduce red stance damage, DFA spamming will only increase.

IronJedi Kaga
06-27-2002, 08:03 AM
Just some general comments:

"To enhance the gameplay of Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast, primarly with Force tweaks (mostly neutral), while adding a higher level of fun."

This was taken from the goals statement, yet in your most recent post (as of this post being typed) you say the mod is primarily desgined for CTF. That should be reflected in your goals or mission statement as opposed to saying enhancing JK2 gameplay overall.

As for the changes, I personally wouldnt call them "noob" , but there are several changes that seem uneccesary. Speed, jump, and sight were all fine (well with the exception of sight being mostly useless overall) prior to in 1.02 and 1.03. The only reason I can think fo for altering those powers at all, is some sort of attempt to work JK1 gameplay (aka speed nearly always on, and tons of jumping around) back into jk2.

The change to grip range seem uneccessary. As for drain, well lowering drain mana cost is just going to revive the drain whore problems that 1.02 had.

Heal change seems fine.

As for the weapon changes. The damage increases to the disrupter seem uneeded. The demp changes are good, the gun was near worthless. Rockets ammo changes are too much. On most maps missle ammo is right next to the launcher, gving one an automatic six missles which is plenty.

The pick up weapons for ammo is only going to promote camping as people no longer need to go search out ammo. Granted, it makes thigns easier for CTF, but hurts every other gameplay mode with weapons.

Saber damage is too high. There is barely any difference between the stances. Going by the base damage numbers you posted, both heavy and medium kill a spawned player in two hits. Light kills in 3. Even with 100/100 its 4 light, 3 medium, 2 heavy. With respect to the speed difference in saber styles, there's still little differential in the damage.The only time saber stances actually begin to make much of a difference is when fighting a player with 100/200 (health/shields) respectively. That doesnt happen often.

Some of the new admin "features" are pointless. Slapping/Punting have no purpose other than being there for admins to abuse. If someone is causing a problem on a server, you can verbally warn them, or just kick them. The only future for punting/slapping is for use when your just fooling around or for use by an abusive admin.

Overall I see it as useful for CTF only, and even then in limited use as some of the uneccessary (well IMO) force changes could turn some players away.

NK_Zephorath
06-27-2002, 08:22 AM
As for the changes, I personally wouldnt call them "noob" , but there are several changes that seem uneccesary. Speed, jump, and sight were all fine (well with the exception of sight being mostly useless overall) prior to in 1.02 and 1.03. The only reason I can think fo for altering those powers at all, is some sort of attempt to work JK1 gameplay (aka speed nearly always on, and tons of jumping around) back into jk2.

Yep :D


The change to grip range seem uneccessary. As for drain, well lowering drain mana cost is just going to revive the drain whore problems that 1.02 had.

No, not really. We just want to balance the forces more. In 1.03, light absolutely destroys dark.


As for the weapon changes. The damage increases to the disrupter seem uneeded. The demp changes are good, the gun was near worthless. Rockets ammo changes are too much. On most maps missle ammo is right next to the launcher, gving one an automatic six missles which is plenty.

Weapon balance. Seriously, pre JK2++, the disrupter sucked bad, we thought a more 'rail-gun-like' disrupter would be better overall, because it is no longer useless, but I still wouldn't pick it over repeater/flech/rocket.
We agree with you on rockets, they are being changed back to 3 per pickup.


Saber damage is too high. There is barely any difference between the stances. Going by the base damage numbers you posted, both heavy and medium kill a spawned player in two hits. Light kills in 3. Even with 100/100 its 4 light, 3 medium, 2 heavy. With respect to the speed difference in saber styles, there's still little differential in the damage.The only time saber stances actually begin to make much of a difference is when fighting a player with 100/200 (health/shields) respectively. That doesnt happen often.

I will forward this, never thought of it.



Some of the new admin "features" are pointless. Slapping/Punting have no purpose other than being there for admins to abuse. If someone is causing a problem on a server, you can verbally warn them, or just kick them. The only future for punting/slapping is for use when your just fooling around or for use by an abusive admin.

Verbally warn? Come on :D slapping them is more fun. More admin options are being looked into.

Overall I see it as useful for CTF only, and even then in limited use as some of the uneccessary (well IMO) force changes could turn some players away.

That's why it is still in beta. I don't see the force being changed again, but we will try and make the mod better for dueling, ffa, tffa etc..
[WD] Thxs you for you input :D

NK_Zephorath
06-27-2002, 08:41 AM
Concerning saber damage:
From [WD]Rage

Yes, they are close, but I wouldn't say they're too high. The saber is the ultimate weapon. The slightest touch dismembers an appendage or can kill. Game-wise, that philosophy doesn't work well, but there can be a compromise between game and movie.

When I started thinking of what damage to use for the sabers, I decided to make the saber more like JK1:

Primary swing - Didn't do as much damage as secondary. In about 3 or 4 swipes, the person's dead.

Secondary - Took away 98 health and 80 shields. If you got hurt in any area, anything more than taking two hit points, one slice of the secondary and you were dead.

I wanted to emulate that.

So Red/Heavy stance is now the secondary swing of JK1. It's strong and powerful, and makes you almost dead. Blue is the primary swing. Yellow is a compromise between blue and red. The saber damage system kept gunners at bay. Sabers weren't as good as guns in JK1, but you at least had a chance. Now it's the same in JK2. Saberists now have more of a chance against gunners than they did.

Now, base damage is decided upon a good, clean hit, which doesn't happen as much as non-clean hits (which cause less damage). On paper, the damage system seems high, but in reality, it's not.

IronJedi Kaga
06-27-2002, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by NK_Zephorath






No, not really. We just want to balance the forces more. In 1.03, light absolutely destroys dark.





Well as for the JK feel, well I guess that personal preference. IMO Jk was very imbalanced and JK2 is overall much more balanced than the fiist.

As for the light destroys dark, I agree with you. Though I feel the answer is more in altering absorb with the "reverse ysmalri effect" so that the offensive force advantage returns to the darkside or at the very least the sides are left with equal offensive capability as opposed to altering, or returning drain to its 1.02 state.

GrEEk_OuTcAsT
06-27-2002, 08:45 AM
Sorry for my first reply which was pretty quick but I was in hurry and I didn't analyzed your mod a lot.

I played for sometime your mod and it is good for team games but it probably sucks in Duels which is the "Main" JK2 Gametype.

My 90% of my games are duels and all the changes you made don't help it a lot. However even in this version jk2++ is BETTER than any other patch even in duel but it still needs further improvements in this.

And when I say Duel I don't mean only NF Duels but also Jedi Knight/Master Duels that have almost disappeared since 1.03. I will analyze my suggestions in your forum.

NK_Zephorath
06-27-2002, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by IronJedi Kaga


Well as for the JK feel, well I guess that personal preference. IMO Jk was very imbalanced and JK2 is overall much more balanced than the fiist.

As for the light destroys dark, I agree with you. Though I feel the answer is more in altering absorb with the "reverse ysmalri effect" so that the offensive force advantage returns to the darkside or at the very least the sides are left with equal offensive capability as opposed to altering, or returning drain to its 1.02 state.

I'm lost :D
Please elaborate a little?
What would you like to see done concering absorb/drain?

NK_Zephorath
06-27-2002, 09:09 AM
Ok I think I made the mistake of making it sound like CTF was our only concern.

It isn't!

Right now we are working on the dueling/sabers aspect of the mod.
Thanks :D

QuietSith
06-27-2002, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by GrEEk_OuTcAsT
Sorry for my first reply which was pretty quick but I was in hurry and I didn't analyzed your mod a lot.

I played for sometime your mod and it is good for team games but it probably sucks in Duels which is the "Main" JK2 Gametype.

My 90% of my games are duels and all the changes you made don't help it a lot. However even in this version jk2++ is BETTER than any other patch even in duel but it still needs further improvements in this.

And when I say Duel I don't mean only NF Duels but also Jedi Knight/Master Duels that have almost disappeared since 1.03. I will analyze my suggestions in your forum.

What exactly - one by one - could they do to improve duel combat?

Can you give us a break down of each thing you liked to see added or changed?

My biggest concern is the return of the 1.02 DFA except the blocking is 1.03 and therefore very difficult to fight back - and it just makes the duel last too long and be boring.

Heck, I'd love to see a duel mode where red stance is able to be optionally turned off - and you could only duel in light and medium - but that's just my extreme opinion. :)

IronJedi Kaga
06-27-2002, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by NK_Zephorath
Concerning saber damage:
From [WD]Rage

Yes, they are close, but I wouldn't say they're too high. The saber is the ultimate weapon. The slightest touch dismembers an appendage or can kill. Game-wise, that philosophy doesn't work well, but there can be a compromise between game and movie.

When I started thinking of what damage to use for the sabers, I decided to make the saber more like JK1:

Primary swing - Didn't do as much damage as secondary. In about 3 or 4 swipes, the person's dead.

Secondary - Took away 98 health and 80 shields. If you got hurt in any area, anything more than taking two hit points, one slice of the secondary and you were dead.

I wanted to emulate that.

So Red/Heavy stance is now the secondary swing of JK1. It's strong and powerful, and makes you almost dead. Blue is the primary swing. Yellow is a compromise between blue and red. The saber damage system kept gunners at bay. Sabers weren't as good as guns in JK1, but you at least had a chance. Now it's the same in JK2. Saberists now have more of a chance against gunners than they did.

Now, base damage is decided upon a good, clean hit, which doesn't happen as much as non-clean hits (which cause less damage). On paper, the damage system seems high, but in reality, it's not.

At first I had some huge paragraphs, but here is the short version. Gah this turned long as well.

Since your using a huge damage variable for each stance (with 2 being the lowest) upping the damage for every stance does little because the amount of damage you'll cause per swing is still incredibly unpredictable. Since the damage is still unpredictable, killing someone with the saber regardless of stance could still take awhile.

Assuming you lower the unpredictability and make base hits happen most often, the problem described in my prior post reappears, specifically, that there is little, if any difference between the damage done by any stance unless the opponent has an extremly high amount of health and shields. That in essence would basically kill either heavy or medium stance and make the game a two stance game. Thats fine if you liked jk, but IMO the jk2 system is far superior, and has proven more popular than the jk system for sabers.

As for sabers vs guns, the jk2 system still works and you can emulate jk gameplay without changing the damage done. If you want to do quick damage, a clean hit with heavy stance will kill someone using a gun with 1-2 hits. Medium which trades off damage for increased speed, will kill in 3-4 hits. Light which trades off a lot of damage for alot of speed can take about 6-8 hits. The only time you'll get hung up having to fight someone for awhile(assuming your doing base damage with good swings) is if your using fast stance, or unless they have a saber out (will address what you can do for saber vs saber in a bit). Now assuming your playing ctf which this mod is desgined for, you shouldnt be using fast stance at all since it takes the longest to kill someone with, and if you're saberfighting anyone but the flag carrier, you're wasting your time. With that in mind, the current saber damage system holds up IMO.

IMO, the best way to fix saber damage so that the stances and their advantages are preserved, and so that a player can still inflict a decent amount of damge would be to simply reduce the damage variables and make base damage the max damage. Here's an example:

Light Stance- Base damage = 25. Variable damage based on swing timing ranges from 20-24. Kills a spawned player in 5 hits if every swing is perfect. Kills one in up to 7 hits if not perfect. will take 8 -10 hits to kill someone with full health and full shields (well after having gotten a large shield booster that has counted down). Preserves the light stances high speed for low damage.

Medium- Base damage = 50 Variable damage based on swing timing 45-49. Kills a spawned player in 3 hits. Kills a 100/100 player in 4-5 hits

Heavy- Base damage =75 Variable damage based on swing timing 70-74. Kills a spawned player in 2 hits. Kills a 100/100 player in 3 hits.

A system like the above would allow one to easily keep track of damage done and estimate how much more effort is needed to take an opponent down. In addition the saber is still highly lethal as it will take down anyone in 3-5 hits (excluding the rare case of 100/200) as long as you are using medium stance or above, and will take down anyone in 2-3 hits if one uses heavy stance exclusively.

Chewie Bakker
06-27-2002, 10:08 AM
NK_Zephorath: What IronJedi Kaga is saying is he wants Absorb to work like the ysalamiri - Those funny lizards that you find on top of the flags in "Capture the Ysalamiri" and that you can find in most FFA levels. They completely nullify Force powers.

If you look here (http://64.246.44.70/~lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63711) you'll see that IronJedi Kaga's opinion is a minority one, and that most peoples worries with Absorb would be fixed by simply ensuring that the push/pull counters against pull/push worked against someone taking advantage of Absorb (mainly in regards to the pull/backstab).

:gben: (http://64.246.44.70/~lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63711) The Force will be with you, always.

IronJedi Kaga
06-27-2002, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by NK_Zephorath


I'm lost :D
Please elaborate a little?
What would you like to see done concering absorb/drain?

Drain, return it to 1.03. Its main purpose is for healing, not for premptive strikes at an opponents force pool. As for absorb, "reverse ysmalri effect" means that while absorb is on, the player can use no other force powers. This returns the offensive force power advantage to the darkside player because though absorb would still block lightning, grip, drain, pull/push, the lightside player wouldnt be able to pull/push or saberthrow or even kick.The darkside player on the other hand would still be able to kick, and use saber throw. As of now, the lightside user can pull/push, kick, or saber throw while the darkside player can only saber throw or kick. Hence the aforementioned offensive force power advantage for the lightside.

IronJedi Kaga
06-27-2002, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by Chewie Bakker
NK_Zephorath: What IronJedi Kaga is saying is he wants Absorb to work like the ysalamiri - Those funny lizards that you find on top of the flags in "Capture the Ysalamiri" and that you can find in most FFA levels. They completely nullify Force powers.

If you look here (http://64.246.44.70/~lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63711) you'll see that IronJedi Kaga's opinion is a minority one, and that most peoples worries with Absorb would be fixed by simply ensuring that the push/pull counters against pull/push worked against someone taking advantage of Absorb (mainly in regards to the pull/backstab).

:gben: (http://64.246.44.70/~lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63711) The Force will be with you, always.

A tad confused there but if what your saying is that push/pull would work against absorb, I would be fine with that. That would give equal offensive force power capablility for both the light and darkside.

The only other thing tat I think you may be trying to say is that the auto counter push/pull doesn't activate against someone who has absorb on. If thats the case I havent run into that problem as the auto counters have worked for me.

Chewie Bakker
06-27-2002, 10:35 AM
Pull/Push actually works against someone using Absorb, but the aptly-named Force power Absorbs most of it. It's a tiny amount akin to a running step or two but it still works.

Absorb should be used in the Yoda vs Tyranus spirit, and used to force a Dark Jedi to fight with the saber (as far as JK2 gameplay's concerned). Unfortunately, a lot of people abuse Absorb and use the pull & backstab combo.

:gben: (http://64.246.44.70/~lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=647054#post647054) The Force will be with you, always.

NK_Zephorath
06-27-2002, 10:43 AM
http://forums.wdonline.com

icefox98
06-27-2002, 10:45 AM
dudez i commend u on this uber mod ur making wow it soundez so friggin sweet but u know u gotta nerf 1 more thing thats rlly important.....SABER DEFENSE yup u know what im talkin about the amerikan ppl no what im talkin about and bob dole nos what im talkin about. so plz PLZ PLZ PLZ nerf saber defense in this mod this will make the game so less friggin cheap

kthxforurhelpbye

Doctor Shaft
06-27-2002, 11:46 AM
Sorry for not posting in your forums, but I figured I'd try here first. I was too lazy to sign up there and stuff. Maybe later. In regards to your mod, I tried it, and it was cool, you guys are on the right track. However, I still had a few things to comment on. I understand that you're first efforts have been to enhance competitive ctf play. It seems your want to enhance duels and such next. Great. That would help. First thing is to tighten that saber vs saber defense. Right now, a saber blocking guns is fine. Don't change it. But with saber vs saber, the defense is still screwy, it's still hard to hit. Overwhelming a person is very seldom. But you already said you were working on that too. Great.

I must also address Iron Jedi Kaga's comments on saber stances and such. I have said this many times before in another post, but lowering saber damage is not the answer. Never ever ever. Yes, if you look at the damage, there's little difference between stances, but that should not be the focus of using the stance at all. The focus should be in it's tactical use. A light stance move that takes seven hits or even 4 or 5 hits is too long. It's impractical. Here's why. Let's take stormtrooper rifle versus lightsaber. Keep in mind, both opponents have jedi skills. The stormtrooper rifle is not only 40 times faster than any lightsaber swing, but it's also weaker and has many times more range and situational use. However, with it's speed, it more than makes up for it. Light stance, on the other hand, is no faster than medium stance. The difference comes in its range and it's ability to have infinite chains. Now, both opponent come up to each other. You're blocking shots, but any smart cookie knows he has to keep range, try to entice you to swing, and then trade hit. you do base damage 25 once, maybe twice. Skilled gunner has shot you for 25 damage 10-20 times by using secondary fire. You fall to the floor after all that physical effort of dodging fire, blocking it, and then timing the shot. He merely walked backwards, enticed you to swing, and then pressed the button and watched you fall. You hit him, but he brushes it off, then steps on your body.

The lightsaber should have high damage all the time. Right now, I think the damage level is okay, however the getting the right amount of damage is still pretty hard. With a damage range of 2-50 or 10-xx is a large bracket. Sure, we should encourage good hits for good damage, but other variables of game play prevent this in the current mod. First, the blocking thing is still too open. But you said you're trying to address this. Second, game speed. I know that the neutral force tweaks are trying to open up a similar JK1 speed, but that brings with it the problem JK1 was plagued with. Right now, even with increased saber damage, any gunner worth his ten cents can overwhelm saberist by using a combination of two powers and gun. Force speed to go ultra fast, and force jump to stay out of the danger zone of the sabers, but leaving him in position to destroy all those who chase him. Saber damage is increased, but with increased speed and less jump cost, gunners have all they need to dominate. The Push/pull problem that plagued 1.03 was bad, but it wasn't all bad. You could always be comforted by the fact that a person rushing you with force speed and what not could easily be pull/pushed down, forcing them to slow down or be shoved silly. JK2++ does not offer this comfort. Today, after some time, I found myself unable to manipulate people running (no, they didn't have absorb on). Your tweak for less mana also makes speed too powerful. Sure, JK1 fast gameplay was great, but the sabers being choppy and clumsy wasn't the only problem for saberists. It was the fact that everyone could run really fast for little to no cost that hindered it. Why ever engage in saber combat, or even fear a lightsaber when I could run away at high octance speed with little fear of being left with no force power, and fire rockets, or especially the heavily abused imperial flechette and heavy repeater all day? This is not to insult the team or call JK2++ a complete failure, it's far from it. But these are still some issues that exist. Saber damage bridged some of the gap between guns and sabers, but the ability to jump and speed for little cost damages, and perhaps even destroys the bridge.

Right now, the lightsaber is still what I call the Counterstrike knife. The only difference is that it looks cooler in my hands, has an extended reach, and it dismembers people. In counterstrike, the knife has some damage power, but it still never holds up against the tried and true high powered rifles and sub-machine guns. The saber in JK2++ is not precisely the same way, but in certain situations it comes close. Saber versus saber blocking has been a problem for everyone. Increased saber damage is the first step. Saber versus gun though still presents great problems. I'm not the greatest player in the world, but I believe myself competent enough to know when a certain gameplay style is simply too inferior to hold up agains others. Giving more ammo or oomph to certain weapons is fine. Go for it. However, the way a saber just functions leaves it highly outclassed. In single player, gunners were beaten because they a)weren't smart and b) I could manipulate them with the force a great deal. In multiplayer, everyone is a jedi. Why use a lightsaber that is infinitely slower, and still is very hard to hit a person with, when I could use the imperial flechette and trip everyone? I know my post is long and mostly negative, but please don't take this as a bashing, just some comments. I had great fun playing JK2++. But again, the highest scoring people were not the saberists, it was the gunners. That's fine, gunners can be the highest scorers anyday, all the time. But it's disturbing when you realize they don't have to work nearly as hard to get there. Not that gunners are cheap or cocky, but you cannot challenge a person with a lightsaber. When you get up close to someone, the normal swing animations are really only good when facing another lightsaber, against stormtrooper rifle, or a flechette, or any other gun, walking backwards and firing is generally the best thing to do.

What would I do to give the lightsaber a deadly edge, or something that would force gunners to be even more intelligent than before, and force them to think what they are doing? I know people don't like one hit kills, or things like that, but if a saber is ever going to win right now, it needs to have a huge damage advantage over the guns. If you want to balance saber v saber, fine. But when it comes to guns, there are too many anti-climactic outcomes that I witness. A person gets in with saber, starts slashing gunner, gets in hits with increased damage. Gunner is hurt, but then activates speed plus jump, or even just merely jumps out of the way, fires heavy repeater explose shot, or imperial flechette, two seconds, saberist is dead. The gunner was smart, yes, but how hard was that? How intense was that? Answer: not intense at all. People pick up the explosive weapons all the time not because they are noobs, or that they suck, or that they are being cheap. it's because they know it's tactically smarter. Better damage range, easier to hit with, limited defenses against it, and they know that it's still much stronger than a lightsaber.

To end this long post, if someone can tell me of their great exploits with a lightsaber and little force power assistance against a good gunner, then post it and i guess I'll be prove wrong about my ideas and comments. If you've killed one guy or two consistently in a game, don't bother. That's not substantial. But if you currently own people with that lightsaber, and you hold very well against gunners versus lightsaber, without having to push and pull them around all day, or basically standing in the background, and then waiting for that "opportunity" that comes around every five minutes, then tell me. My instincts tell me no one has been able to scare people when they ignite their saber. People tremble in fear when flechettes and repeaters and disruptors and rockets come out, but the only time a saber gets complained about is when it's against another saber. Otherwise, a saber doesn't even match up with the guns. Okay, no more rambling, I don't think before I type, I just type.

MrYepp
06-27-2002, 11:54 AM
In response to Kage's Absorb/Drain issues:

Remember, Darkside's supposed to be offensive anyway, so using drain as a preemptive strike should be a valid tactic to render your opponent defenseless. Putting on a reverse-ysalamiri effect on Absorb would effectively nerf it to the point of uselessness. I'd say the Force powers are pretty good where they are now, most of the reason why Darkside was so much more powerful in 1.02 was due to the fact that the most powerful force Lightside has to counter Dark is Absorb. Absorb wasn't useless, but it was weak because it was visible. By nerfing Absorb again will just create force imbalance like in 1.02.

MrYepp
06-27-2002, 12:02 PM
About the Lightsaber issues:
What Doctor Shaft said was extremely true. As of now (1.03) in CTF or TFFA with guns, the only purpose for me to have a saber at all was for

1.)Rolling, so I could conserve mana and move along at a nice speed.

2.)Defend against deflectable projectiles.

So basically, I had level 1 saber offense (so i could have the saber at all) and level 3 saber defense. The saber was a useful tool, but quite useless other than the defensive capabilities.






















I forgot the point I was trying to make :p

maybe I'll finish this post when I remember lol

ThirdGenRX7
06-27-2002, 12:36 PM
Raven should just pirate JK2++ and call it 1.04;)

Boreas
06-27-2002, 12:52 PM
Can you get rid of speed advantage by rolling plz?

Make it more like SP, where it is short and you mainly use it to get in close to someone before you take a saber swing.

Lucky
06-27-2002, 07:55 PM
Rage: All of the combo's for the saber have slowed you down to walking speed, its not readily apparent because so much else was changed with 1.03, but its definitely in the code if you go take a look at it. + walking backwards was slowed for everything, im sure u ganked that already.

As for the rolling and disruptor, yeah it sounds like you got about halfway there and it still ran serverside. I got it working all the way, but never tried running it on a server.

Shouldn't be too much work to get that implemented completely when you have the time. I had client/side changes all over, so I wasn't even remotely worried about making what I had done work as a server side modification. The saber bug is because the function assumes you are holding a saber, you have to make it understand what yer holding with another function call I can't remember. I'll take a look at it next week and post when I head home, busy as hell atm.

Also, a lot of the stuff you've changed is also in various cvars, as well as local variables derived from the cvars. I dunno if you realized that or not, but its definitely true. Might make it easier for you in the future if you realize there are some global things you can tweak to accomplish the same goals.

And as for arbitrary changes? Well mebe you should define 'improved' a little bit better and lay out a reason for each change in yer documentation. I honestly don't understand why you increased the grip range or messed with jump. Jump was setup with the base levels just like JK's was with oasis, perfect height for most jumps.

Also, increasing the speed of jump just increases the amount it gets incremented everytime the controls msg map gets run. This makes for a nasty lil stuttering bug, not sure if yer suffering from that or not, ill go take a look sometime in the next 2-3 days.

And speed, like I said, that wall walking code is invaluable in that sense, cause JK locked you to the ground unless you hit jump. Thats why speed worked for JK. If you want to boost speed up to JK levels, you should consider implementing somthing like that.




Lucky

NK_Zephorath
06-28-2002, 12:10 AM
bump

MrYepp
06-28-2002, 06:30 AM
*bump*

QuietSith
06-28-2002, 06:32 AM
Things have been slightly improved since this change:

http://forums.wdonline.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146

NK_Zephorath
06-28-2002, 07:31 AM
Indeed :lsduel:

DarthCobra
06-28-2002, 07:35 AM
Nice poll. Gotta love how u have no bad choices. Its a nerfed fanmod. Im sure your likely to find that everyone isnt gonna like it. I'll pass.

GrEEk_OuTcAsT
06-28-2002, 07:45 AM
Doctor Shaft has some good points but he is mostly wrong. Lightsaber, because of its limited range is never going to be a top weapon in massive games. A lightsaber user himself can easily win a repeater user you mentioned. Either throw him in the correct moment, Pull his weapon, Speed and Saber rape him while he holds a gun, Throw while having protect, mind trick for sudden attacks and much more. There is no doubt that in 1v1 the saberist wins. However when in a FFA game Lightsaber users can be hitted with guns while they try to kill an other gunner and this always makes Gunners good scorers. They search for unprotected Sabers to hit them from back.

LightSaber needs to balanced only in Duels.

However turning Ghoul2 OFF is something necessary because there is too much blocking now. Sometimes you reach a guner and when he sees you are close he just gets his saber up and defends all the attacks of your sudden saber assault without losing 1 hit point.

NK_Zephorath
06-28-2002, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by DarthCobra
Nice poll. Gotta love how u have no bad choices. Its a nerfed fanmod. Im sure your likely to find that everyone isnt gonna like it. I'll pass.

The poll was a joke, you obviously have no sense of humour. Please leave us all alone.

Nerfed fanmod? How so?
You're flamming our mod, but not giving any reasons at all.

NK_Zephorath
06-28-2002, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by GrEEk_OuTcAsT
Doctor Shaft has some good points but he is mostly wrong. Lightsaber, because of its limited range is never going to be a top weapon in massive games. A lightsaber user himself can easily win a repeater user you mentioned. Either throw him in the correct moment, Pull his weapon, Speed and Saber rape him while he holds a gun, Throw while having protect, mind trick for sudden attacks and much more. There is no doubt that in 1v1 the saberist wins. However when in a FFA game Lightsaber users can be hitted with guns while they try to kill an other gunner and this always makes Gunners good scorers. They search for unprotected Sabers to hit them from back.

LightSaber needs to balanced only in Duels.

However turning Ghoul2 OFF is something necessary because there is too much blocking now. Sometimes you reach a guner and when he sees you are close he just gets his saber up and defends all the attacks of your sudden saber assault without losing 1 hit point.


Pretty sure we're going to have ghoul2 off by default following this version.

IronJedi Kaga
06-28-2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

I must also address Iron Jedi Kaga's comments on saber stances and such. I have said this many times before in another post, but lowering saber damage is not the answer. Never ever ever. Yes, if you look at the damage, there's little difference between stances, but that should not be the focus of using the stance at all. The focus should be in it's tactical use. A light stance move that takes seven hits or even 4 or 5 hits is too long. It's impractical. Here's why. Let's take stormtrooper rifle versus lightsaber. Keep in mind, both opponents have jedi skills. The stormtrooper rifle is not only 40 times faster than any lightsaber swing, but it's also weaker and has many times more range and situational use. However, with it's speed, it more than makes up for it. Light stance, on the other hand, is no faster than medium stance. The difference comes in its range and it's ability to have infinite chains. Now, both opponent come up to each other. You're blocking shots, but any smart cookie knows he has to keep range, try to entice you to swing, and then trade hit. you do base damage 25 once, maybe twice. Skilled gunner has shot you for 25 damage 10-20 times by using secondary fire. You fall to the floor after all that physical effort of dodging fire, blocking it, and then timing the shot. He merely walked backwards, enticed you to swing, and then pressed the button and watched you fall. You hit him, but he brushes it off, then steps on your body.



What would I do to give the lightsaber a deadly edge, or something that would force gunners to be even more intelligent than before, and force them to think what they are doing? I know people don't like one hit kills, or things like that, but if a saber is ever going to win right now, it needs to have a huge damage advantage over the guns. If you want to balance saber v saber, fine. But when it comes to guns, there are too many anti-climactic outcomes that I witness. A person gets in with saber, starts slashing gunner, gets in hits with increased damage. Gunner is hurt, but then activates speed plus jump, or even just merely jumps out of the way, fires heavy repeater explose shot, or imperial flechette, two seconds, saberist is dead. The gunner was smart, yes, but how hard was that? How intense was that? Answer: not intense at all. People pick up the explosive weapons all the time not because they are noobs, or that they suck, or that they are being cheap. it's because they know it's tactically smarter. Better damage range, easier to hit with, limited defenses against it, and they know that it's still much stronger than a lightsaber.

To end this long post, if someone can tell me of their great exploits with a lightsaber and little force power assistance against a good gunner, then post it and i guess I'll be prove wrong about my ideas and comments. If you've killed one guy or two consistently in a game, don't bother. That's not substantial. But if you currently own people with that lightsaber, and you hold very well against gunners versus lightsaber, without having to push and pull them around all day, or basically standing in the background, and then waiting for that "opportunity" that comes around every five minutes, then tell me. My instincts tell me no one has been able to scare people when they ignite their saber. People tremble in fear when flechettes and repeaters and disruptors and rockets come out, but the only time a saber gets complained about is when it's against another saber. Otherwise, a saber doesn't even match up with the guns. Okay, no more rambling, I don't think before I type, I just type.

Interesting analysis but you are incorrect o some things. I'll address your saber stance issues first. The light stance is faster than the medium stance. The combos and spins are faster than the medium stance counterparts. Hence the lower damage, for higher speed. If you want to kill someone quickly, your going to have to use medium or heavy stance.

As for your stormtrooper rifle example, there are several errors with it. First, any player with experience will simply sit there and deflect the st rifle shots. With saber defense 3, anyone who attempts to fire an st rifle at you will be lucky to get 3 shots out of 100 to land. During that time the rifle user will usually either give up, run out of ammo, or get killed due to deflected blasts. As for the run away and entice a swing strategy, that strategy simply wont work unless your in ctf chasing down a carrier. And if your chasing someone in ctf with a lightsaber your already screwed for the most part. Otherwise the smart saber user would just either pull the gun away, run in and kick, or let the gun user fire first. Second you only mention fast stance, as I said in a prevous post heavily will usually kill in 1-2 clean hits. Medium in 3-4. This isnt counting any special attacks.

As for the damage issue, heavy stance swings have the same damage capability as most of the high damage weapons. The only weapons that rival heavy stance in killing power are the flechette secondary, rockets, the two types of detonators.

As for range, any gunner retreating while firing at you is putting him/herself at a disadvantage. Why? Force push. What ever cant be deflected by the saber can be pushed away. Let them run away and fire at you. Simply push back the energy grendade, flechette mine, rocket or detonator that they fire at you. The greater distance only gives you more time to deflect the attack. In addition saber use gives you a variety of dodging techniques. Rolling, and wallwalking are both saber only ways of being able to dodge gunfire at a distance.

The saber can compete with guns, but guns have the advantage in a multi opponent environment because you dont have to be as "attached" to a battle as a saber user is. And by atatched I mean a 1 person focus. The saber is not really made for damageing more than one person so what happens to alot of peopel using the saber is that they enter a battle and engage one person, and can hold that other person at bay even if they are using a gun. On the other hand the gun user doesnt have to enter a battle and engage one person like a saber user does, they can stay at a distance and pick a specific target not risking immediate danger, or a gun user can use a splash damage weapon like the rocket launcher or the flechette secondary to attack all the opponents in the vicinity. That's the main advantage guns have over sabers, and unless they add some sort of saber thats like triple the length of the normal one, gun users will usually have the tactical advantage in most game types.

Doctor Shaft
06-28-2002, 11:28 AM
Good responses, but again, I feel the main point everyone is missing is that the only time a saber is really good is when you mention force powers. Granted, a lightsaber should be a weapon that needs to be augmented with the Force to be effective, but right now it's almost too much. In addition, your gunner has force powers too.

The funny thing is that for all the responses I received in regards to a scenario I presented, the answer wasn't in the sabers ablility, but in the force powers at your disposal. Person walking backwards with st rifle. Solution: force push. That's a good answer, but still, the lightsaber is still relegated to being heavily dependent on your use of the force. In addition, the gunner has the force too. He can just push back, speed away, jump around, and a bag of chips. I'm well aware that I can push grenades, flechettes, and the like back, but gunners are not stupid. Force push can only be used so quickly, and a gunenr knows he can overwhelm you quicker than you can push. The force speed saber rush stradegy is flawed. The gunner can do the same thing. Sure, if it was jedi vs. mercs, maybe the gunner would have something to worry about. But like I said, the gunner is always on the same level as you are. Using the force is simply not going to cut it because the opponent also has the force. You can run fast and slice all you want, a skilled gunner will not be overwhelmed by this. Iron Jedi mentioned that the gun has the tactical advantage in most game types. He is correct, because the nature of the saber vs the gun. However, that tactical advantage is too high. There is never a point in time where a saber competes very well against high powered guns. 1 v 1 and 1 v 3, whatever. The saber only competes when a person starts to use the force to catch up.

I have to put this up again. If anyone can tell me a stradegy of destroying a skilled gunner with a lightsaber, that doesn't involve force push, force pull, or any other kind of force power that throws the gunner off, I'd be happy to hear it. So far, I haven't gotten any, which I feel proves my point. The saber can do high damage, but it's simply not a quick kill ever. I'm not petitioning for a saber to become a weapon that kills three people at once like a rockety launcher, or give it long range capabilities. But because it is a force, 1 v 1, up close an personal weapon, a person should be rewarded for his efforts with his quick kill. It's still ridiculous that I spend all that time catching up to a gunner, only to find myself running around like a headless chicken trying to finish him off with swings, while the gunner both effortlessly and fluidly leaps into the air or backs up and finishes the job. The stradegy of standing around and blocking laser shots is both obvious and also easy to get around. People adapt, they figure out how to work an opponent. Also, it's annoying that if I have an st rifle user, even up close I am force to be on complete defense, for fear of being blasted to oblivion. I should be able to simply end the fight, not play a game of chicken. Which again brings my other point: no fear of the saber. An opponent walks backwards while gunning. Proposed solution, force push... pull, force whatever. So again, when was the lightsaber a solution? The gunner is more afraid of having his gun pulled or being force pushed somewhere than he is of getting attacked by the lightsaber.


In response to Greek Outcast, perhaps I misworded it, but in a fight of saber versus repeater, the odds are not even. A repeater has a much easier chance ot win, especially in JK2 ++ because they unnerfed the ammo usage and such. I don't care if guns get more ammo, but let's face it. When a gunner also has force powers to match your own, but he's now firing explosive blasts that kill you in two shots, and also come out faster than your best light stance swings, who really has the advantage. And once again, the solutions to the problem that I keep getting are force powers, not lightsaber maneuvers. You say use force push, throw, grip, protect, speed rush, etc. That's force powers, I wanted an example involving getting in close, and then ending it because you closed the distance.

I know a lightsaber is not going to rack the most kills in a large multiplayer game. That's incredibly obvious. If you have a rocket launcher and 10 people all in a tight space, you're going to have a field day. My point is not that a lightsaber should be a mass killing machine. My point is that it is currently not an effective weapon against anything but its self. People tell me that it is, but then I get the added "with the following force power" clause. I'm tired of having to push my opponents shots back, and not speed after him because I know that I cannot close distance and just finish the job. I have to close distance, and then do the headless chicken dance to secure more hits for the kill, while the gunner can be as imprecise as he wants, so long as he doesn't blow himself up. I don't know how we could make a lightsaber lethal against gunners, but the truth is that it's not. Using force powers is NOT a saber attack. That is using a force power. Yes, the lightsaber is very dangerous when you've pushed me to the floor and I can't fire back. yes the lightsaber is very dangerous against a repeater if you push one of my shots back into me, and then run at me when I have low health. No, the lightsaber is NOT dangerous when you just close distance and swing at me for the first time. I just take that hit, and then blow you up. these are not average player or newbie tactics. These are very practical, easy to use, and heavily used maneuvers, and they do the trick one one one, and one on three, all the time.

So, to end my usually long posts, I don't know if the guys making JK2 ++ are ever interested in addressing this issue or not, but again... tell me when you schooled your rocket launcher opponent, or even any gunning opponent except the bryar pistol without heavy use of the force. That means you didn't have to push his shots all day. And when you finally got in range, you were able to finish it. Not play the lucky headless chicken dance. Can you do it consistently against the best gunners around. If so, then wow, tell me the secret. If not, then my point stands. Have a good day.

QuietSith
06-28-2002, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by DarthCobra
Nice poll. Gotta love how u have no bad choices. Its a nerfed fanmod. Im sure your likely to find that everyone isnt gonna like it. I'll pass.

The fanmod is a complete joke - dualsabers and grapples?

Yah that's what 'fans' want .. uh no.

You can't even have a halfway decent saber battle with a dualsaber.

Fanmod doesn't fix anything that is needed to be done and adds a whole series of gimmicks.

Not even comparable.

DarthCobra
06-28-2002, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by NK_Zephorath


The poll was a joke, you obviously have no sense of humour. Please leave us all alone.

Nerfed fanmod? How so?
You're flamming our mod, but not giving any reasons at all.

I didnt flame anything. You've obviously made some changes (so its nerfed). As for the poll being a joke forgive me if i didnt notice. "Please leave us alone" what are you 10. You post a thread obviously wanting praise. I didnt give any critisim i just said ill pass. And while fanmods can be fine I usally find them nerfed more to the coders liking than for the community.

MrYepp
06-28-2002, 02:56 PM
Hey cobra, making changes means you're nerfing it, so if i had a car, and I attached machine guns to it, and a rocket launcher, im changing it, thereby nerfing the car right??

DarthCobra
06-28-2002, 07:22 PM
Hrmmmm....

MrYepp
06-29-2002, 04:03 AM
**BUMP**

WD_Rage
06-29-2002, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by DarthCobra


Nice poll. Gotta love how u have no bad choices. Its a nerfed fanmod. Im sure your likely to find that everyone isnt gonna like it. I'll pass.

..........

....I didnt give any critisim i just said ill pass. And while fanmods can be fine I usally find them nerfed more to the coders liking than for the community.

FanMod and JK2++ are nothing alike. FanMod is the Spork of JK2 (for those that do not know what Spork is head to http://www.jedilegacy.net/spork/ ). It will have a following, however, that following will more than likely not grow to huge proportions and be considered for competitive play. It's more of an after hours mod.

JK2++, on the other hand, is being built with the competition mindset, although it is wavering a bit from that mindset. It's the competition mod to give better and more fun game play. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.

As for nerfing.....what's been nerfed? Nerfing is taking an AK-47 and replacing it with a Nerf Ball Blaster (hence the term: nerfing). Everything in JK2++ has been just the opposite. Nothing has been nerfed.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again: Don't knock it before you try it. Playing it and reading it on cyber-paper are two different things.

As for not giving critisism, you did by saying it was "a nerfed fanmod". That's being critical, but you offered nothing else but your critisism.

GrEEk_OuTcAsT
06-29-2002, 05:38 AM
Doctor Shaft

We mention forces because Forces cooperate better with Lightsaber than with weapons/guns. Some weapons "are" somewhat overpowered especially these that can be countered only with Push but again vs a Single EXPERIENCED Lightsaber user they have no chance. The main reason you think Guns are strong is because they are spammed easily in massive player games. Rockets and these fireballs (don't remember the weapon's name) can be defended with push and jump, most gunners can be killed with throws in the right moment and also gunners have great problem vs moving targets that is something lightsaber users always do. Even with Ghoul2 ON I have managed to be first in FFA JK2++ Servers even if I played with some experienced weaponers. You can't really explain the power of the lightsaber but with the way I use it with the force(s) any gunner is a piece of cake. And I say again. Only with the saber.

WD_Rage
06-29-2002, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by GrEEk_OuTcAsT


any gunner is a piece of cake. And I say again. Only with the saber.



That's a bit exaggerated. The saber is a powerful weapon. But not every gunner is a piece of cake to you. You just haven't fought the right ones yet :p

Cedrin
06-29-2002, 06:15 AM
The only people i've seen complaining about JK2++ were the ones that complained about version 1.2 becuase they couldnt cope with the steep learning curve while others did.

If you think 1.3 was an improvement, then you are being selfish and only caring about your needs becuase obviously you sucked at 1.2.

WD_Rage
06-29-2002, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by Cedrin
The only people i've seen complaining about JK2++ were the ones that complained about version 1.2 becuase they couldnt cope with the steep learning curve while others did.

If you think 1.3 was an improvement, then you are being selfish and only caring about your needs becuase obviously you sucked at 1.2.

amen

MrYepp
06-29-2002, 02:39 PM
I thought 1.02 was fine, it was really after 1.03 that I really quit playing this game as much. People in 1.02 who whine about DFA is almost like people in JK1 whining about the secondary swing.

IronJedi Kaga
06-29-2002, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Cedrin
The only people i've seen complaining about JK2++ were the ones that complained about version 1.2 becuase they couldnt cope with the steep learning curve while others did.

If you think 1.3 was an improvement, then you are being selfish and only caring about your needs becuase obviously you sucked at 1.2.

The same could be said about thinking jk2++ is an improvement over 1.03. If your going to argue either way at least take the time to support your opinion. Otherwise your wasting time and bandwidth. Saying someone sucks becasue they disagree with your opinion isn't supporting evidence.

Cedrin
06-29-2002, 05:21 PM
I'm saying someone likely sucked at 1.02 if they are saying 1.03 was an improvement on the game.

Probably a majority of the skilled 1.02 players will agree with me on that point. I have talked with several highly skilled 1.02 duelers and they agree that 1.03 was aimed towards lesser experienced players. When I mean highly skilled 1.02 players, im not talking about people that only use RED or DFA.

I have read numerous discussions about 1.02 vs 1.03 and keep hearing the same complaint about 1.02 being brought up.

"You die in seconds in 1.02.. 1.03 you have a chance"
"I hated the DFA spammers, they always kill you"
"I always die to DFA"
"DFA is unblockable.."
"There is more saber control in 1.03"
"In 1.02 the same was random and hardly any blocking"
"1.03 is more fun now"
"You cant block in 1.02"

You wont believe how often I hear this on those threads. Everything listed there are the common complaints said by inexperienced players. They always tend to backup their arguments about 1.02 as being the victim, almost always.

Believe it or not, but it is the truth.

KnightHawk420
06-29-2002, 05:54 PM
I ran your mod on my FFA server for a night. It was not well recieved. And I really hoped it would be, from what I seen it for the most part forced players to depend more on they're basic saber skills. :) Some told me it would just become a red whore fest, and I believe that to be wrong, some said it made saber battles last longer, also not particuarly true. I consider it very balanced if you are one to depend more on basic saber moves. And less on the same 2 hit binded combo. Blocking works like it should, including pull/push blocking that actually works. ;)

Being an admin that enforces a few rules, having the ability to slap players to get they're attention and listen to the rules before I kick them is quite nice. But oh yes it can be quite too fun though.... Although compared to my force annihilation green beam of death, it's much less severe.

And the ability to rename them... hmmm well I abused it and found little reason to use it otherwise, but hey it's still cool to have.

I was overall happy with it, and still may run it permanently.

My only real complaint was that throw used a bit too little mana. Perhaps could put in adjustment....

Also nice to be able to set it up without having clients download it first, a definate plus.

In the next release if you could add the 2 hidden saber styles.. that would be a sweet option.

And to hell with the flamers, just keep in mind your making this mod the way you want it made. ;) If we benefit all the better. And if you listen to the intelligent comments, ....all the better.

QuietSith
06-29-2002, 07:39 PM
The sabers lasting too long, and heavy stance DFA issues are solved by typing:

g_saberghoul2collision 0

We tested it out at '1' (default for JK 2 ++ beta 3) and found the blocking way too high, making saber duels last way too long, and the DFA a low risk move.

So try that command at '0' and you'll notice a big difference.

They were experimenting with Ghoul 2 as part of the beta process, and have found out it causes too much blocking.

The next version of JK 2 ++ will have it at 0.

Nice Saber
06-29-2002, 08:11 PM
Please could you guys provide me with a list of servers in which this mod is run..thx

WD_Rage
06-29-2002, 10:15 PM
KnightHawk420,

I have noticed that the latter part of the week has been slow. Usually, our server is full, and usually it stays that way. Since about Thursday, it's been slow. Maybe it'll pick up later in the next coming week. I have kept an eye on the servers that use JK2++, and many of them were full (or near to) up until Thursday. Give it another try in the coming week. As for saber throw, I agree. There are many things that I am considering changing (push, pull, speed, jump, throw). For the next beta, I'm going to bump the cost back up a bit. Push/pull mana cost is currently too low, in my opinion.

Nice Saber,

[WD]'s Server: 146.20.43.203:28070
QuietSith's Server: 65.113.116.20:28072
jolt.co.uk - CTF: 195.149.21.44:28076
jolt.co.uk - FFA: 195.149.21.44:28077
Cheaters Wayside CTF: 128.143.126.254:28070 (down at the moment)
Gamers.com CTF 1: 165.193.20.14:28070
Gamers.com CTF 1: 165.193.20.15:28071

I see about three more, but I'm too lazy to copy them over (no copy and paste). I'm not sure what version Gamers.com uses. In my haste to release Beta 3, I forgot to change a link to the beta 3 file. Some might have gotten beta 2 instead.

MrYepp
06-30-2002, 02:57 PM
i only have 4 servers with JK2++

Con. Snake
07-01-2002, 03:46 AM
I just thought I'd chime in here.

I think everything is perfect, except for one thing. The Rockets. From my experiences, almost every map that has a rocket launcher in it, has turned into a rocket fest ever since the rocket amount was changed. If that was put back to the normal amount, it'd be perfect in my eyes.

WD_Rage
07-02-2002, 12:11 AM
Yes, the rockets are a problem. I changed it back to 3 for the next release, which will be available in the next few days.