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View Full Version : Continuity Problems and More about the movies.


kaibigan
06-26-2002, 03:53 PM
Who here feels the end of RtoJ should be changed to include the ghosts of Mace Windu and Qui Gon Jin?
They played some very pivotal roles with in the series. Especially Qui Gon Jin. If it wasnt for him Anakin may not have been trained. And I feel if it wasnt for Mace Windu killing Jango in front of his son, then Boba wouldnt have been so powerful or so driven.
How come in the beginning of ANH when Obi Won is asked about the driods or owning them he doesnt recognize them? Think about it. These two driods have been around him and helped him more then once. I know there are alot of driods but how many are as annoying C-3PO?
This one may have been said before but why does Obi Won refer to himself as spotting anakin's power and not Qui Gon? Delusions of grandeur?
Any other continuity problems people have?

Kaito Fett

BlackDove
06-26-2002, 03:56 PM
Qui Gon wasn't planned 25 years ago...I think...He was just put in later on to fill the movie...

kaibigan
06-26-2002, 04:07 PM
Well my wonder is if Lucas has plans of redoing or revamping parts 4 to 6 because of this? He got alot of flack from the fans about number 1 problems. I was told the DVD series wont be out for Episodes 4 - 6 until after Part 3 is made. So makes me wonder if he will do a few rewrites or pop in some more stuff to fix some of these issues. Possibly paste in Jackson and Neeson at the end of RotJ and dub a line or two mentioning Qui Gon. Would be good I think.

Here is something I just realized about both of the last JK games. And correct me if I am wrong here please. But arent the Gran supposed to be a peaceful race? Every book, comic, and even the RPG refer to the Gran as a peaceful race that hates fighting. The gran seen in Jabba's Palace was unique to be travelling in the criminal world. So if they are so nicey nicey then why are there so many bad ones in the latest games?

Kaito Fett

Darth Joka'ar
06-26-2002, 05:21 PM
As for O.B.1 forgetting C3PO,I have some explaination about it.

-C3PO was silver in colour during AOTC
-C3PO is in Golden Plate in ANH and both C3PO & R2D2 memory was wiped out.

That's why O.B.1 couldn't reconize them as well as both of the droids.

Pedantic
06-26-2002, 05:28 PM
Y'know, now that I think about it, I don't think Obi-Wan ever saw C-3P0. I mean think about it. They just never meet.

BCanr2d2
06-26-2002, 08:34 PM
Qui-Gon Jinn as a spirit, as far as I know, there is an explanation to all of this in Episode 3, I thought we sort of got a description of it in the first two movies....

It seems to lie along the theory of Force that each Jedi believes in...

atinymonkey
06-26-2002, 09:24 PM
Isn't this a whole lot simpler that it's being made out to be?

The spirits that appeared to Luke were the only ones of relevence to him. He never meets Mace Windu or Qui Gon Jin, so why should they appear to him? It's not as if Obi Wan would turn up and bring some pals along for the show.

As for R2 D2, there are millions of R2 units that look identical. So Obi Wan would not recognise him more than you would recognise a toaster that you saw in a house 40 years before. Plus, Pedantic is right about C3 PO, they have not met yet.

MasterD-LeyAmas
06-26-2002, 09:26 PM
I don't know if this is what you're getting at BCanr2d2, but as you can see at the end of Ep1, Qui-Gon Jinn does not dissapear into thin air and become one with the force, as Obi-Wan and Yoda did when they died. He just died, and they burn his body. Interesting, eh?

BCanr2d2
06-26-2002, 09:32 PM
Did you ever listen to Qui-Gon explain his version of the Force at the beginning of Episode 1? Concentrate on the here and now, on the living Force.............

When Yoda, Windu and Co, meditate and try to use the Force to see things into the future as a guide. I guess it's a live for the moment vs a looking at the larger picture...
Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin die for the will of the Force, they see they have done their job, and chose to become one with the Force. Qui-Gon dies in battle, and surprised to die at that, not really his choice to die for the betterment of the Force........

MasterD-LeyAmas
06-26-2002, 10:02 PM
Yeah, I was going to see if anyone else would come up with that, but apparently they missed the point there... or just didn't read it. But yes, the only Jedi that we've seen killed in combat so far (Qui-Gon, the Jedi in AotC in the arena), haven't vanished, suggesting that it takes one last moment of concentration on the Jedis behalf in order to become one with the force. That's why Obi-Wan leaves himself open to attack by Vader. He meditates for one last second in order to become one with the force, because he knows it is a battle he cannot win.

BCanr2d2
06-26-2002, 10:38 PM
I guess it eludes to that if you know you are going to die, you can prepare to meet your maker/afterlife/etc.
But we hear QGJ from beyond the grave, when he says "Anakin, Anakin" and is it still him saying "Nooooooo", perhaps distorted by a big shift in the balance of the Force. So, Jedi do live on after they die, but I think the vanishing into the Force is probably what we have discussed so far.........

My opinion tends to lean towards the difference in belief of the Force, the TPM novel delves a bit deeper into the Living Force way that QGJ reacts to things.

Arca Jeth
06-27-2002, 12:03 AM
ALL Jedi live on after death. The jedi who have died in the past are the ones that tell other jedi to "use the force" I consider them like guardian angels.

Jedi_Monk
06-27-2002, 02:27 AM
How come in the beginning of ANH when Obi Won is asked about the driods or owning them he doesnt recognize them? Think about it. These two driods have been around him and helped him more then once. I know there are alot of driods but how many are as annoying C-3PO?
Let's examine the facts here. First of all, ANH does not exclude the possibility that Obi-Wan did recognize the droids. In fact, what are Obi-Wan's first words upon seeing R2? "Well hello there, little friend!"

Also, Obi-Wan never did own the droids, they have been owned by Anakin or Padme all throughout the Prequels. I'm guessing that when Padme flees to Alderaan to evade Anakin she takes 3PO and R2 with her, and when she dies, her daughter (Leia) will inherit them. This why the droids are seen in the service of the Alderaanian royal family in ANH. Obi-Wan is just giving an elusive answer when he says "I don't recall owning any droids". He never owned them; doesn't mean he didn't recognize them.
This one may have been said before but why does Obi Won refer to himself as spotting anakin's power and not Qui Gon? Delusions of grandeur?
Any other continuity problems people have?
Obi-Wan does not say he spotted Anakin's powers. He says "When I first met your father, he was already a great pilot", which is the truth. Anakin was a skilled Podracer pilot, one of the best on the circuit--and for a pre-pubescent human, that's quite an accomplishment.

Obi-Wan goes on to say "but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him!" And Obi-Wan was amazed. Just listen to him in Episode I. He says "The reading is off the chart... over 20,000... even Master Yoda doesn't have a midichlorian count that high!" He sounds amazed to me.

The elderly ghost Obi-Wan continues, "I took it upon myself to train Anakin as a Jedi... I thought I could train him as well as Yoda... I was wrong." Well, Obi-Wan was going against the Jedi Council, and so he was taking Anakin's training upon himself. And in taking Anakin as his Padawan Learner under these circumstances, Anakin was unable to get the basic teachings that Yoda bestowed upon the younglings (as seen in SW2), therefore Obi-Wan must have believed that he could take Yoda's place in teaching Anakin the Jedi discipline. He was wrong.

I have yet to find one glaring "contradiction" between the OT and the PT. Every single one of them that I've heard can be easily explained away by reference to the movies.

http://members.aol.com/dannilalfletch/Jedi_Monk.jpg

kaibigan
06-27-2002, 07:38 AM
Ok first someone said that the ghost part was because of perspective. Since Luke didnt know Mace and Qui Gon then the ghosts wouldnt show up right? But the ghosts did know them. And they were a big part of the storyline. So in fact they should of showed just in support of the other three. IMHO

Someone said the driods got memory wiped so they dont know of Obi Won. But (correct me if I am wrong) but what makes those particular droids special is that they have never been wiped and hence they have formed a complex personality. To the point of becoming sentient. I remember this in several of the books. One in fact I do remember said it was recommended that droids get wiped once a year to avoid them becoming sentient but in fact R2 and 3PO never were. So in fact even if Obi didnt recognize them ("They all look alike to me") they should have known Obi Won.
Just because Obi says "Well hello there come here my little friend" doesnt mean he knows the droid. I have called people friend or buddy just to be polite. Also what about 3PO? He makes a nuisance of himself when he sees an "Old friend" and yet when he sees Obi Won he doesnt say anything like "Hello Master Kenobi" or whatever. Now maybe he did know them or maybe not. But I seriously doubt when Lucas shooting that first scene with Alec he told Alec "Call him little friend because in the prequel I will make 20+ years later Obi Won will know R2.".
Also onto anakin's training and not one mention to Luke about Qui Gon. He tells Luke "So I took it upon myself to train him." It should gone more like "I followed my master's dying wish and trained him.". OF course in normal conversation not alot is brought into the topic. But I think something that important should have been. When I first saw Episodes 4 - 6 I always felt Obi Won was a bit of a renegade with in the Jedi Order because of that line. But now I see him as trying to follow the rules as best he can and not a rebel. So its alot about perspective.

Of course these are just my opinions and just wanting to discuss this.
Thanks all.
Kaito Fett

Vestril
06-27-2002, 01:15 PM
Someone said the driods got memory wiped so they dont know of Obi Won. But (correct me if I am wrong) but what makes those particular droids special is that they have never been wiped and hence they have formed a complex personality. To the point of becoming sentient. I remember this in several of the books. One in fact I do remember said it was recommended that droids get wiped once a year to avoid them becoming sentient but in fact R2 and 3PO never were. So in fact even if Obi didnt recognize them ("They all look alike to me") they should have known Obi Won

Well, actually you're remebering a part from one of Tim Zahns novels (I believe) where some techs can't start Luke's X-Wing up without Artoo because he never wipes either of their memories, this allows for a greater efficency in information exchange (30% faster, I think). This could well be true of Artoo and Threepio, except in Episode II they fall right into their regular relationship from the movies, and they haven't had time to form a complex relationship. This discounts that theory, and leaves it very probable that the two droids had their memories wiped. Their core personalities leave them at odds, is all.

Also, Obi-Wan didn't recognize Artoo, he wasn't supposed to, and when you think about it, that makes sense.

whitedragon
06-27-2002, 01:21 PM
quit whining ya baby

Darth Joka'ar
06-27-2002, 05:51 PM
Well you guys seems to forgetting something about the droids

-C3PO was staying in Cliegg Lars igloo since Shmi Skywalker married(sold) to him.

-In ANH, C3PO doesnt even reconize Tatooine

-How come Oven Lars,some of Cliegg Lars dont even reconize C3PO at all in ANH!!??!

My conclusion

-C3PO memory was wiped out as well as R2D2

-For Oven Lars,C3PO was in GOLDEN plate in ANH and in AOTC,it was in an old rusty plate.That's why Oven Lars dont reconize his droids.

Jedi_Monk
06-28-2002, 03:18 AM
I believe Lucas has stated that the droids' memories will be wiped in Episode III. Also, Lucas wouldn't need to say to Alec Guiness:
"Call him little friend because in the prequel I will make 20+ years later Obi Won will know R2.".
All he would need to do is write the words into the script and the actor would say those words. Lucas certainly had a backstory for his characters--he's said it many a time--so he would know R2 and 3PO's roles in the story and know how the other characters--including Obi-Wan--would react to them. So, Lucas writes:

Obi-Wan
Well hello there, little friend!

Guiness says the words without giving it a second thought.

http://members.aol.com/dannilalfletch/Jedi_Monk.jpg

FratBoyTX
06-28-2002, 03:40 AM
In Ep. IV, Ben says he didn't OWN a droid. Since posessions are forbidden, that is a true statement (from a certain point of view). :r2d2: :ben:

Kurgan
07-02-2002, 02:22 PM
If POSSESSIONS are forbidden for Jedi, I wonder if that includes Jedi robes and even.... could it be? Lightsabers!

That screws up a lot of the EU stuff doesn't it?

(Note how the Jedi came in and just tossed the prisoners lightsabers)

Shadow Angel
07-02-2002, 02:43 PM
The part about the actors just saying Lucas' script without questioning is true. Lucas gives the actors little or no information or backstory on their character. James Earl Jones, who voiced Vader, thought Vader was lying when he told Luke he was his father.
And for those kinds of errors being fixed in another special edition, that wouldn't be a good idea, because the film just wouldn't be the same. If that weren't the case, I'd say that the entire Vader vs. Obi-Wan fight in ANH needs to be revamped. Sir Alec Guiness is a great actor, but the moves are horrible. (I won't protest to touching up the lightsaber blades, though.) The only thing that should be fixed is all-new scenes that won't screw up any existing ones. For example, in ANH, a scene in the Imperial Palace on Coruscant where the Emperor is sitting on his throne declaring the Senate suspended until further notice. And, of course, making the image quality high-definition, if that's possible. Most OT shots are really grainy and ugly-looking.
About Jedi spirits, I think all Jedi live on after death. Isn't that what the Valley of the Jedi from JKI was all about? All the spirits of deceased Jedi rest there? But, then again, games count as EU and EU can be kind of funky sometimes with the movies.

JaseP
07-02-2002, 03:33 PM
All Lucas has to do to keep continuity with the Original Trilogy is to have Obi-Wan or Padme or someone else instruct the droids that they are not to reveal facts that could jeopardize Luke or Leia, should they encounter them in the future.

If you watch ANH again, you notice that C-3PO is intentionally evasive when answering Luke's questions. He doesn't come right out and say that R2 is lying to Luke, and he HAS been in battles, he just came out of one!!! He's lying to Luke on purpose. It's not a stretch to think that He continues to lie to him until Luke reveals to 3PO that he learned the identity of Vader,... He also tells Luke that he's not much for telling stories, and he wins over the ewoks in RoTJ with his story telling. Maybe Lucas uses the stupid head switching thing to explain 3PO's problems as well,...

R2 never reveals anything to Luke because, well, he can't usually be understood. He was also probably told that he shouldn't tell Luke or Leia their identities.

Darth Groovy
07-02-2002, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by BCanr2d2
Qui-Gon Jinn as a spirit, as far as I know, there is an explanation to all of this in Episode 3, I thought we sort of got a description of it in the first two movies....

It seems to lie along the theory of Force that each Jedi believes in...

And boy there had better be or somebody had better head for the hills!

"The emperor is not as forgiving as I am."

_Darth Vader:vadar:

Divine Spirit
07-02-2002, 05:35 PM
i was under the impression that ghosts only appeared to people if the ghosts had a reason for 'staying behind' in the universe. obi-wan needed to appear as a ghost to luke so he could guide luke into going to dagobah so this is why he stayed behind unlike qui gonn who didnt do anything to help luke

your point about how things would be different without mace and qui gonn is pretty lame. you can say that about everyone whos changed things. for example, on a statue of Winston Churchill you wouldnt have his great great great great great great grandfathers name mentioned would you? although he was needed for WC to eventually be born, he never had any direct affect on WC's life