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Derisor
06-27-2002, 11:11 PM
There is a new archive at http://www.imAThievingIdiot.com for your enjoyment.

I have seen several threads these days from people with "ripped versions" of the game and various modelling programs like 3d Max. I have one thing to say to them. No, It isnt "where did you get it?" It is, "What exactly turned you into a thieving jerk?" Was it parental abuse or something .

When you steal someones software, you steal their product just like if you walk down to the local clothing store and walk out with a new leather jacket without paying. It is theft, it is robery. It is pathetic. The people that bust their buns working on this game deserve to be paid. They poured their heart and soul into it and made a fantastic game and deserve the rewards no matter how great they may be.

"But I cant afford it," you might say. Then save up until you can. Your lack of motivation to pay for the product is no excuse. Nor more than it would be an excuse if you were arrested for shoplifting.

Id like to make the following suggestions to those of the forum that believe that people have a right to get paid for their hard work.

1) If anyone talks about having a ripped version of the game or any other software, dont respond to their threads and permanently ignore them. Put them on the kill filter.
2) Reccomend via PM to the mods that the person be banned.

Dont let people get away with it. Im sick of having to pay more for games so the game company can make up for the money they loose to these theiving jerks. Im sick of them the attitude that people dont deserve the fruits of their labors. None of use work for free, why should Raven? I want Raven to come out with sequel after sequel and I will keep BUYING every version.

Ok, Ive had my say. Comments?

Ah Boon
06-27-2002, 11:19 PM
this is pure spam

CoolJ
06-27-2002, 11:19 PM
damn right...

I myself am a game developer and know first hand how hard it is to make a game this good

they deserve the money for all their work, this isn't a privelage that you should get... it's mostly kids that rip off software...

and then there' those no cd cracks , etc... bah

it costs a LOT of money to make a game

more so than blockbuster movies

with jerks like them they can't even break even... 3 companies worked on this game!! ....

software piracy.. IS PIRACY... it is just as illegal as walking down the street and boosting a tv set.....

and some ppl burn them to CD's then SELL them?! wtf is up with that? it's not your work, you did not buy it from the manufacturer, you cannot sell it, you shouldn't even have it in the first place....... and now ppl have to work harder to make games more secure and harder to copy......

if you can't pay for it, tough... I can't pay for a Jaguar, you don't see me going and stealing one

mythren
06-27-2002, 11:20 PM
I'd have to whole-heartedly agree.
I must admit, I do believe computer games are a little overpriced (I'm thinkin about 30 bucks per game...but then again, I'm a cheap sonuvagun :) ), but the companies that makes these games do deserve to be paid for their hard work and effort. They honestly do put their hearts and souls into their work. If, by chance, you do download warez games, and you feel that it's a good game, then please go buy it. You honestly can't expect people to keep coming up with great games and getting nothing in return for all of their hard work.

Derisor
06-27-2002, 11:26 PM
Mythren:

If it werent for these little jerks they could probably sell them for 30 bucks per game. These little piracy jerks jack up the prices for you and I because they have to figure on x number of stolen games.

In the next patch I hpe they intoduce a code that will block you from playing in multiplayer if you have a ripped version.

Atog006
06-27-2002, 11:27 PM
I'm 13 and theres no way that I could pay for $1000 software such as 3dsmax so what do I do? I pirate it!

mythren
06-27-2002, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by CoolJ

they deserve the money for all their work, this isn't a privelage that you should get... it's mostly kids that rip off software...



Please, please, please, don't stereotype (sp?) us. I know that 'kids' (I'll assume this means ages 1-18) do DOWNLOAD the pirated software a lot, but I know for a fact that most of the actual pirating, that is, the cracking and distribution of the software, is done by adults. I'm 15, and live in a smaller town, but, surprisingly, we have a lot of "Computer Geeks". We're all gamers, too (not low-end gamers, in fact - my tech teacher is Helyun [err..I think that's how you spell it...I never played the game] from Quake...2...I believe...and he won 1st or 2nd place in some massive tourneys), and while a few people I know do download warez sometimes, I also know that if they feel it's a good game, they go out and buy it too. I saw my friends hacked copy of JK2, and we both went together and purchased it. I'm not a huge "Baulders Gate-Type Game" guy, but my friend is, and he bought NWN the day it was released, didn't even THINK about warez versions.

My point is, young people aren't the problem. We aren't all bad, we don't all have a mindset that we know everything, and most of all, we don't feel that everything in life should be free. We all work for the same amount of money (Unless you payed less than 50 bucks for JK2 :) ) to get a game like this, and MOST of us actually spend that money ON the game. Case in point: Young people are not bad.

P.S.
Sorry for ranting on, I know you didn't say much, but I honestly get tired of people assuming that, since we're young, we're automatically bad in some way. Why people seem to have this mindset is completely beyond me...but I was playing JK2 the other day, some guys were cussing eachother out and calling them "stupid 15yr olds living with mommy and daddy playing games that are too old for them" and what not...just pisses me off.

Oh yeah, and I owned both of them :).

Derisor
06-27-2002, 11:31 PM
Atog: no you dont. You dont use it. Same deal if you cant afford a new motherboard. By your logic, if you cant afford a new motherboard at age 13, that gives you the right to go down to the store and rip it off ?

Oh and you made my kill filter and admin report. You little jerks piss me off. YOu know who else you piss off? All the other responsible poeple your age. Why? Because its little thieving criminal jerks like you that give them a bad name. I tell you what you do. You go down and get a job at the local theater and then tell them they dont have to pay you. YOu work for free for hours on end. Maybe that will give you perspective.

Just be greatful that I cant contact your parents. But I do wish they would ban you.

And yes, Im passionate about the subject. One reason is that I am a Senior Software Engineer.

Derisor
06-27-2002, 11:33 PM
mythren:

We arent your enemies. Its other kids like Atog006 that cause us adults to get such impressions of people in your age group. You should be more pissed at them then we are. If you mow lawns or do chores or whatever to make money for the game, hats off to ya man.

mythren
06-27-2002, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by Atog006
I'm 13 and theres no way that I could pay for $1000 software such as 3dsmax so what do I do? I pirate it!

That's still wrong. At 13 (I'm 15 now) I could get a job doing just about anything and make 1000 bucks within a month and a half. Depending on where you live, offer to clean someone's house or something, mow lawns. If you live in a more rural, farming-type area, then pick rock, it pays really good.

You're also not helping our image either...I just typed a huge thing about kids not being the problem, and you go off and say something like that.

Maybe I was wrong...maybe most kids are the problem, and just a few of us feel that we need to be honest in life.

CoolJ
06-27-2002, 11:39 PM
d'oh, i'm sorry, I didn't mean it like it sounds.....

heck I hate stereotyping, in real life i'm wiccan.. >_< ... so I don't appreciate false stereotyping much


well, I mean, ... mature a little, .. I know adults also rip off software... but , well, you should work, and pay for the game, not rip it off......

or ask for money to buy it, whichever comes first........

for me I just go around begging for my game fund, and well, I have over 100 playstation games ;) well ... i seriously do have that many games (or at least did I sold 20 of em) and they are all LEGAL, used maybe, but not ripped off copies.....

see, if I can amass such a ridicuously large collection of legal games, why can't some1 get a small job, or save up money from your allowence (as in be mature, save up money for something important) and get one game, eh? hehehehe

i'm sorry, I don't mean to flame kids....... i'm one of you too ;)

mythren
06-27-2002, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Derisor
mythren:

We arent your enemies. Its other kids like Atog006 that cause us adults to get such impressions of people in your age group. You should be more pissed at them then we are. If you mow lawns or do chores or whatever to make money for the game, hats off to ya man.

Thanks, good to know that most adults are willing to listen to us :). I guess the reason I get so pissed is that gaming has always been an honestly FUN thing for me. It costs money, yeah, but not near as much as some other sports (paintballing comes to mind...ugh...100 bucks in an afternoon). I hope on one day becoming a programmer or designer of some sorts...but I'm not sure on exactly how to get into that field.
Ideally, I'd work for PCGamer. Play games all day, write reviews (I've won a few awards for writing from the state, and nationally, so it's not like I'd have to do much there :) ), and at pretty decent living. I know it's probably more than that, but still - that's what I'd like to do. :)

CoolJ
06-27-2002, 11:42 PM
well alright, i don't really have so many games at once...

i rent a game, or I buy it for a couple months, and then sell it..... good huh? ;)

Luc Solar
06-27-2002, 11:42 PM
Quote: "I'm 13 and theres no way that I could pay for $1000 software such as 3dsmax so what do I do? I pirate it!"



Ahhh, yes...I love this logic...lemme take it a little further:

"Oh man I love that cadillac but it's way too expensive...hmmm....I guess my only choice is TO STEAL IT BECAUSE I DESERVE TO GET EVERYTHING MY LITTLE HEART DESIRES!"


Like...umm...you don't simply get everything just because you happen to want it. If you don't have enough money to buy the game, guess what?! That's right! You'll just HAVE TO LIVE WITHOUT IT! What a major shock, huh???!

Duh!

CoolJ
06-27-2002, 11:44 PM
yep just like i said before.....

i went to the car show here in NYC, saw a jaguar I liked..... can't afford it......doesn't mean i'm gonna steal the next one i see ;)

mythren
06-28-2002, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Like...umm...you don't simply get everything just because you happen to want it. If you don't have enough money to buy the game, guess what?! That's right! You'll just HAVE TO LIVE WITHOUT IT! What a major shock, huh???!
Duh!

Yup, tough for some to understand.
I'm in this VERY situation right now : Don't have any money left, even though I have a very nice, well paying job (because I WORKED to get it) as a Technology Support Technician (I love that title...it means I fix the easy stuff :) ) at a school district, but I spent all my cash on wheels for my car (not even a registered car yet, but Im lookin at the big picture LOL), and - yep - you guessed it, JK2.

Warcraft III comes out within the week, but my next paycheck isn't until July 20th. Ohmigosh! What am I gunna do!? I'm going to wait. Warcraft I was probably the game that started it all for me, and I'm gunna have to wait over 20 days before I can buy it's second sequel. Will it kill me? Probably :), but I'll deal with it. My friend will probably buy it the day it's released and I'll head over to his house and camp there for a week or so, but I won't actually own it until I can go to the store, purchase it with my own hard-earned money, and proudly display it's box with the rest of my Computer Game Box collection (They're fun to collect, and I really doubt I'm the only one that does it - in fact, I bet there's even another box-collector on these forums!), smell the manual and read as much of it as I can while the game itself installs.

Will be a glorious day, but again, I'll have to keep working for it, and wait for it as well.

TheRock
06-28-2002, 12:06 AM
Not that I agree with pirating software (I read somewhere that in the country of China, almost 95% of all the software in the country is pirated), however, you gotta admit that some software is FAR to expensive.

3dMax for $1000? MS Office for $500? (Granted, I havent checked prices in AGES...my company provides mne with most of that type of software, and I buy the games)

I used to laugh when I worked at *large software retailer* when I'd see the prices. You figure, it costs maybe 4-5 bucks to get the box printed, 10 bucks to put the software on the cd and the cd itself, 1-2 bucks for manuals. Then they charge $1000 for it. Yes, I know, R&D plays a big part, but $1000 for 1 software program?


Anyways, to the person that said it costs more to make a game like Jedi Outcast than a blockbuster movie, I'd like to see exactly how much it costs to make a game. Yea, I know its not insignificant, but I doubt its over a couple million. I could be wrong. Most big name stars (Will Smith, Julia Roberts) get 15-20 million to be in the film. This doesnt account for the sets, extras, other stars, advertising, etc.

If it takes over 80-100 million dollars to produce a game the level of a Jedi Outcast, then I wouldn't think you'd see so many decent, small software company upstarts producing games equal to or better than JO.

Anywho

Derisor
06-28-2002, 12:13 AM
mythren:

Programming is an exceedingly rewarding career if you are a puzzle solver. Im a senior programmer that has 6 people working for me. I dont work in the game industry though, I work on maps as just a hobby. My industry is in the area of genetic research. We have soem really large programs. Immagine all 7 of us working on a single program for 2 years. :)

How to get into it? If gaming is your interest you will need a few things.

1) A book on assembly language for basic understanding. You wont need to study it in detail but having the basics is good.

2) A book on C++. Choose the O'Rielly series of books. They are great.

3) A copy of microsoft visual c++. For sure this is what raven uses.

4) Allot of time and patience.

Start working through the book, reading up and trying things. The most important thing in programming is to TRY things. DOnt jsut read them. You will actually learn allot by typing in the programs in the book instead of downloading them. Then mess with things. Do allot of "what if I ..." games. After a while you will come to a reasonable comprehension of C++ and be working on more advanced projects.

If you get bored with programming one day, fire up map editors, go through tutorials and build some JK2 maps. Read about lighting and modelling.

Playing with a program called Povray will teach you allot about modelling. Use Moray as it is shareware and only 80 bucks or so.

Keep going and then the best way to break into the industry is to get that college degree. Go for mathematics or physics and NOT computer science. CS courses in college are useless. Teach yourself the programming and ask lots of questions of people on the internet. such as the visual c++ forums. Make sure you work in direct 3d into your self courses. Always start with somethig small and then add to it. 50 little programs working will teach you more then 1 large program that doesnt work.

Too young? No.

I started programming when I was 12. Wrote my first basic program on the state of the art Apple IIe. :)Wrote my fircs c++ program when I was 16.

To break in to the industry, putting out a series of Killer maps with mods, models and so on for your favorite game would look really good on the ol resume.

And remember ... all programmers are allowed to be crazy. Its a special perk of the industry. :)

Nhoj
06-28-2002, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by Derisor
Mythren:

If it werent for these little jerks they could probably sell them for 30 bucks per game. These little piracy jerks jack up the prices for you and I because they have to figure on x number of stolen games.

In the next patch I hpe they intoduce a code that will block you from playing in multiplayer if you have a ripped version.

That's not really accurate because it is based on assumption. Fact: there is piracy. Fact: This game costs $50US full retail. Assumption: 100% piracy elimination = lower prices (I don't think that would happen). Assumption: 100% elimination of piracy means EVERYONE would then buy it. Reality: It just means that SOME will buy it (and have it) and some won't buy it (and not have it/play it).

It is a false assumption to think that a pirated copy absolutley means there is a lost sale and it is a false assumption to think that someone who CAN'T pirate the software (if that were possible) will automatically buy it (as opposed to living without).

Same holds true for music CDs/mp3s and movies.

My arugment here is not what's right and what's wrong; that's been stated a million times. My argument is that the BSA, RIAA, MPAA, and any other publishers assume that 100% piracy = 100% sales loss. Not true. I also believe (opinion) that prices would not drop if piracy could be stopped 100%. Corporations are looking at the bottom line. Eliminating piracy and keeping prices the same would be a double-win for them.

CoolJ
06-28-2002, 12:20 AM
well ok i'm not saying that this game took more money than the greatest movies ever made, ... i meant that it takes a lot of money to make games, ....... I just exaggerated a slight bit ;)

mythren
06-28-2002, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by Derisor

And remember ... all programmers are allowed to be crazy. Its a special perk of the industry. :)

That's probably a good thing :).

My only problem is, I'm an instant-gratification sorta guy, I like things done RIGHT NOW, waiting isn't hard, as long as I don't have to do a ton of learning in the waiting :). I'm working on that, though. Mathematics might be tough as well. Not that I don't do alright in math, I'm in the advance course for my agegroup, and I get by alright with B's...and if I put effort fourth I know I could get A's, but that's the thing - I don't like it too much so I don't put effort fourth.

For something like programming, though, I might just have to nuke all my old habits and push through, maybe it'll be the career I follow!

Cal-Gon Gin
06-28-2002, 12:39 AM
when it comes time to get a job, showing you are willing to put forth the effort (the As) means more than just showing up. Who wants to hire a slacker?

mythren
06-28-2002, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by Cal-Gon Gin
when it comes time to get a job, showing you are willing to put forth the effort (the As) means more than just showing up. Who wants to hire a slacker?

I know, I know. Very good logic there, and I've been told it many times by many people, but I guess it's never clicked with me...I dunno, I guess I'll just have to start trying harder if I'm serious about making a name for myself in life. I think, "But hey, yer only 15! Go have fun!"...I know that's the wrong mindset, but it's still the one I tend to have a lot of the time.

HertogJan
06-28-2002, 01:29 AM
I only buy games that I really really like... I pirated JK2, then I bought it...

And as for the BIG software: pirating by use doesn't hurt them that much, it's the use by companies they earn their money with! MS doesn't really care if some people pirate their software, as long as they have their monopoly 5 year licenses with big companies, that's where the real money is...

Office is shipped with many PCs, so they earn money with that. They also earn a lot of money out of companies, who are forced to use MS Office (because everyone uses it) and buy it in great quantities (sp?)...

And 3DSMax isn't meant for the private users, they customers are mostly game developers, graphic design companies etc...

Heide
06-28-2002, 01:45 AM
I recommend Free Software like Gmax, OpenOffice, Staroffice, Linux, and so on. Don´t throw your money into a company that rips you off.

Heide

TheRock
06-28-2002, 02:29 AM
Well, always remember guys, CD-Keys are a very good way to prevent people from pirating software, not to mention making the CD's copy proof. Not 100% effective, but it will generally stop the average JoeNobody from pirating.


I also believe that 0% Piracy will not equal lower pricing. This world WAS about competition for lower prices. It used to be that if one company was in an area, and offered a service for , lets say $40, another company would come in and offer service for $30. The first comapny would be forced to drop thier pricing to be competitive.

Now days, it would be the new guy, with the lower pricing, jacking his price up to match or exceed the other guy.

Nobody tries to give you a better price anymore. They try and get every penny they can. If they see someones getting away with charging more than they are, they will raise thier price to match.


If you dont believe me, check your local ISP pricing. It was dropping drastically....now its going up.

IMNORFIN
06-28-2002, 02:46 AM
People download warez versions of games because THEY CAN, you want it stopped then you go to the companies that place the software on the cd's and tell em to tighten up it's security and it's really funny that jk2 didn't even have a cd key requirement.

Evil_Gloop
06-28-2002, 03:03 AM
A high price for 3dsmax isn't a rip-off, its specialist software designed to be the best in its area, for professionals.
Simple really, if you want the functionality, that's what its worth, and its not like you can only use it once. The amount of times Software Engineers like me use it, it's probably working out at £0.50 per loadup. Considering the prices of the products that we can make, the original price of 3dsmax in patheticaly small.

icefox98
06-28-2002, 03:04 AM
Video games cost more to make than a blockbuster movie?

Example, Waterworld. Not very new movie. over 200 million dollars to make.

Jaguar. Best possible one, 100,000 dollars.


From Vagabond: Watch yourself icefox98. Your post has been edited for attacking another forum member. You have been officially warned. If you persist in unacceptable behavior, more severe action will be taken against you. Have a nice day.

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 03:16 AM
I do dowload warez, but if I like the game, I save up and buy it. If I dont like it, I delete it. No loss to the developer. Demos today are absolute crap, so I use warez as a substitute, as its an actual representation of the game I would get if I bought it, not smoke and mirrors like most demos.

As for 3DSMAX, theres no way in hell I can afford 1000 for the software, and another 1500 for a computer to use it, so I have a cracked version of it. And I feel no guit for it either. They make their money on big company liscences anyway, and if I want to be a modeler and be a game developer myself, I cant live off Milkshape or the schools half-assed "education version" that I cant even take home. And Max alone isnt all that powerfull in the first place, without third-party plug ins, so I dont see the justification of the software costing 2 thirds of what my whole damn computer does.

I realize warez is wrong, and I know it can only cuase harm, but I dont have a job (not my fault, minimum age is 16 here) so I have to use my money on games I know I will like.

Cost of America At War (game): 4 million. Cost of Black Hawk Down: around 200-350 million. Idiot.

mythren
06-28-2002, 03:32 AM
I dunno what 3DSMAX is, but obviously it's high price isn't justified. However, just because you think that, say, a new Corvette costs too much to buy that you should go on a Grand Theft Auto run (in fact, if you wanna steal something, steal the game GTA and then steal the car in that game...much cheaper for getting caught that way). Like you, Lime, I've also gotten the pirated versions of games to test, but if I actually play them, I go buy them...and you're right, demo's SUCK nowadays. There does need to be some sort of justification for this 3DSMAX thing though, I mean, they say it's not useful without any 3rd party plugins (which, by definition of 3rd party [why not 2nd?!], the company did NOT make), yet it still costs $1000...I'm not sure I have a good answer for that other than, do what you feel needs to be done.

mythren
06-28-2002, 03:34 AM
By the way, if I've offended anyone in anyway (not sure how I would, but I might have), I had absolutely no intention of doing it...

Just so you'd know :).

CapNColostomy
06-28-2002, 03:43 AM
I'm in the same boat as Lime-Light. And I like the fact that for free I can try a game out to make sure I like it before dropping 50 clams give or take a few bucks, to get a game home play it once and totally feel ripped off( Diablo II :mad: ). I've bought every game that I liked after downloading it free. Examples include Max Payne, Ghost Recon, Black & White...Most copies available for download that I've got made me want the original more anyway. Like the version of Max Payne that I downloaded. It didn't have ANY voice in the graphic novel sections, or in the game. I played a couple levels, decided it was a great game, went and bought it.

I wish I knew a good place for demo downloading. It would get the same results as the method I use, minus feeling like I'm stealing. Gamespot used to have just about any game you could think of available for download, and they still do. But now they want the greenbacks. I'm not about to pay for a demo.

mythren
06-28-2002, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by CapNColostomy
to get a game home play it once and totally feel ripped off( Diablo II :mad:

(Warning: Personal Opinion to follow)

WHAT?!?!?

Diablo II was probably the most fun with a game I've had in a LONG time (with the exception of Black and White, which I bought a week after it came out :) ), I loved going through the cathedral the first time with my baby necromancer :). However, I can see where you wouldn't want it.

And you're right, there aren't any good places to get demos anymore (Happypuppy was the best, not sure exactly what happened to them), so to truely test a game, you probably DO need to DL the cracked vers and try it, but if you really like it, you SHOULD go and buy it, but the problem is that most people don't. I had the cracked of B&W before I bought it, but I DID buy it. Then again, there are games that you don't even have to test to know they rock (Dungeon Siege and Morrowind come to mind :) ).

Again, mostly personal opinion, the point is that if you're gunna pirate software and you like it, GO BUY IT. And for the love of macaroni and cheese, please don't help distribute it!

icefox98
06-28-2002, 04:17 AM
Black in White was a BORE. Just for the "tutorial" or first world it took like 5 hours...Ugh I hate that game. I'm starting to get fed up with RPGs and such...I think its because I played EverQuest.....oh well maybe some day my love for rpgs and real time strats will be rekindled. Heh Heh.

EnforcerSG
06-28-2002, 04:58 AM
Well, have any of you used Napster, Morphious, Kazza, Hotline, ect?

Honestly, I occasionally will give a copy of the game to a friend, just so we can play over a lan or play together online or what not. I trust him not to make 10 copies for friends, and he does not.

I agree that with games i dont know about, i would try to get a copy before buying it. If i like it, then i will get it off the shelf ASAP. If not, then thank god i did not waste my money. However, with Jedi Knight, i pre-ordered it knowing it would not be crap.

With big programs, such as 3D studio, i say if you are going to publish anything or do anything serious (such as make stuff for games), get a legal copy. However, if you are say a student and you dont want to have to go down to the computer labs to do every project for a class, I dont see the big deal with getting a copy for something like that.

Krak3n
06-28-2002, 05:25 AM
Software Piracy is on the up. More and more people are finding out you can get software that would normally cost $300 for nothing. Are you telling em you would not be tempted?

Warez is one of tho's things that will never go away. No matter what copy protection they put on games, they are always cracked. Operation Flash POint is a good example. Said to be crack proof and if you tried to copy it the game would nto function correctly, it was cracked with in a week.....

You can moan and nag and tell them they are lamers for 'steeling' software but the truth is....if any of you have used Kazzar or similar programs, recorded your own taps or burned your own CD's then you have also stollen.

It's the age old thing, People always want something for nothing, in this casem, you can get everything and anything for nothing. People as a whole will always take advantage.

So really, theres no point moaning or nagging, calling then names and so forth cos it won't do a thing.

CoolJ
06-28-2002, 05:26 AM
uh , what the hell icefox? ... there are a lot of posts after mine, did you just ignore them all just to flame me? ..i read other posts and threads by you..... you like flaming ppl dontcha? :rolleyes:
and everyone else, why is everyone flaming me because of one thing I said wrong? ... ok, I made a mistake, I admitted it earlier in this thread and corrected myself, ...


well i was exaggerating really, but what I meant was that even though it ddin't take a budget of hundreds of millions dollors it still doesn't mean you should just rip off the software, if you like it, let the companies have their money and make some profit off their work ...


I usually just d/l a demo, I don't like to sift through warez sites..... they are all ridden with endless pornographic ads and barely any of the sites have actual files on the server... the most i get out of them is a locked up PC ......

if a friend of mine has a game i'm interested in i usually play it or borrow it... i read all the reviews I possibly can..

well with a program like 3ds max 4 ,... yes I agree, if you plan to legally sell a game made with visuals modelled in that program you should have a legal copy ;)

well I use cheap counter parts.. i use a very low cost 3d game engine, and free or very cheap modelling tools. like 3d Canvas or milkshape...

since I'm not really in it for profit , it's just a hobby of mine...

well, I used those peer to peer sharing programs , but a lot of the music i downloaded I already had a legal version (on a record or tape or cd..... yes...a record, ...disco baby ;)) ... yeah, I can't find my record of "I will survive" so I downloaded an .mp3, and I couldn't find my snes so I downloaded roms of super mario games.. well i found my snes now so I deleted all that wasted memory ;)


yes, i think if you do have a copy of something and like it, you should go buy the game...

chances are it'll work better anyhow heh

CoolJ
06-28-2002, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by Krak3n
Software Piracy is on the up. More and more people are finding out you can get software that would normally cost $300 for nothing. Are you telling em you would not be tempted?

Warez is one of tho's things that will never go away. No matter what copy protection they put on games, they are always cracked. Operation Flash POint is a good example. Said to be crack proof and if you tried to copy it the game would nto function correctly, it was cracked with in a week.....

You can moan and nag and tell them they are lamers for 'steeling' software but the truth is....if any of you have used Kazzar or similar programs, recorded your own taps or burned your own CD's then you have also stollen.

It's the age old thing, People always want something for nothing, in this casem, you can get everything and anything for nothing. People as a whole will always take advantage.

So really, theres no point moaning or nagging, calling then names and so forth cos it won't do a thing.

true, we could moan and nag and they won't stop... course not, the onyl way to stop them is to catch them and, eh, why bother

Aoshi
06-28-2002, 06:05 AM
I actually had the warez version before i bought the game and i only used it to see what the game was like. after i played the warez version for about 3 days i was satisfied with the game, so i deleted that version and paid like 50 bucks for the game. I know i could have gotten away with using the warez version, but i'm 19 i work and i understand how hard it is to do things like this. buying something from a company is a way of saying "i appreciate the work you do for me so i'm paying you back for your time and effort and looking forward to anything new that you might make." without our money people like raven cannot continue making games. it seems that our society is degenerating into a worthless squabble. how would you feel if you worked for months even years perfecting something that you loved just to have some worthless bum steal it from you and SELL it himself? in anycase i agree with the concept that you should be able to try things out before you buy them, but after the testing the money should be spent if nothing else to show your appreciation.

Nhoj
06-28-2002, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by Krak3n
{cut to make it shorter} You can moan and nag and tell them they are lamers for 'steeling' software but the truth is....if any of you have used Kazzar or similar programs, recorded your own taps or burned your own CD's then you have also stollen.



Slightly incorrect. If one has bought the album/cd/tape, then burning one's own mix or putting them to tape is LEGAL so long as only the one who bought the cd/album/tape is using either copy. But, I could be wrong about the scope you are using.

SeraphimII
06-28-2002, 10:20 AM
Blah Blah Blah! Piratings bad m'kay :)

Blah Blah Blah! Lets devote a thread about it that will acompish nothing, but either drive a bunch of people to argue or write too damn much about why their right and everyone else is wrong, m'kay. :rolleyes:

Blah Blah Blah! /me thinks this thread suxs, m'kay.



But in the words of the Human Tourch...


FLAME ON!

MasterD-LeyAmas
06-28-2002, 04:43 PM
I am with all of you when you say that warez games should not be used as anything else *except* for *maybe* trying out the game before you buy it. Game designers are more in the "starving artist" category than other designers. I myself do not have any ripped copies of games on my computer.

However; one cannot say that Microsoft deserves $300 dollars from me (when I would have to save a portion of a couple of paychecks to afford that) in order for me to have the most up-to-date version of their OS; which they'll update in two years and ask me for another $300 to keep up to date.

You just can't ask me to do it. Not when they have already charged THOUSANDS of businesses for hundreds-of-thousands of copies, EACH, of this same software at $300 a pop, and have already made their money back 100 fold.

Sorry, I feel no guilt in using Microsoft's programs (or any other programs that are overpriced just for businesses, such as 3dsmax) without paying for them. I think every retail consumer who uses them on home computers should get them for free. It wouldn't hurt Microsoft in the least. I don't tell anyone else how to go about getting them, but I'm certainly not going to work away a month's worth of in-pocket cash in order to keep my computer up to date, just so the CEO of Microsoft can sleep at night (probably on a bed of money); and I don't believe anyone else should either.

But, you are right about games.

This ended up being a lot longer than I intended. Whoops.

Chastan
06-28-2002, 05:11 PM
I'm just surprised that LA decided not to use the CD-Key system for online play... it works very well with all the other Quake 3 based games...

MasterD-LeyAmas
06-28-2002, 05:13 PM
I was suprised by this too. I think LucasArts just figured that it wasn't worth the effort. Which it probably isn't.

jipe
06-28-2002, 08:09 PM
Yeah, the cd key works well until people with keygens screw thousands of people over and support is left to deal with the mess..

BCanr2d2
06-28-2002, 08:30 PM
CD-Keys will ALWAYS be cracked, since they are all based on an algorithm of some sort. Algorithms being mathematic can be relatively easily reproduced, there has to be another way to protect CD's.

Won't get caught in the apparent flame war that has developed.

Exterminator234
06-29-2002, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by Aoshi
I actually had the warez version before i bought the game and i only used it to see what the game was like. after i played the warez version for about 3 days i was satisfied with the game, so i deleted that version and paid like 50 bucks for the game. I know i could have gotten away with using the warez version, but i'm 19 i work and i understand how hard it is to do things like this. buying something from a company is a way of saying "i appreciate the work you do for me so i'm paying you back for your time and effort and looking forward to anything new that you might make." without our money people like raven cannot continue making games. it seems that our society is degenerating into a worthless squabble. how would you feel if you worked for months even years perfecting something that you loved just to have some worthless bum steal it from you and SELL it himself? in anycase i agree with the concept that you should be able to try things out before you buy them, but after the testing the money should be spent if nothing else to show your appreciation.

thats why theres demos

Aoshi
06-29-2002, 05:24 AM
i didnt see any demos when i wanted to buy the game a few months ago. maybe you should get your timeframe straight maybe there are demos NOW but there werent demos when the game was first released. maybe companies should release the game and a demo at the same time i think that would be pretty effective.

CreeP_303
06-29-2002, 05:32 AM
Tonight On Fox: Opinions gone AWRY!!!!

see the breakneck speed of morons posting about how there shouldn't be any software piracy in the world.

witness shocking discoveries that big ceos of ISP's actually endorese warez!!!



pffft...worst thread ever.

MasterD-LeyAmas
06-29-2002, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by CreeP_303
Tonight On Fox: Opinions gone AWRY!!!!

see the breakneck speed of morons posting about how there shouldn't be any software piracy in the world.

witness shocking discoveries that big ceos of ISP's actually endorese warez!!!

pffft...worst thread ever.

Thank you Creep_303, this post was both informative and enlightening. Please feel free to share with us your vast amount of knowledge at any time.

And, if you don't like a thread, don't spam it to raise your count.

Lime-Light
06-29-2002, 12:14 PM
Hmm. I read that some old senator fart wants to make it so that software developers cant give out thier source code or allow other countries to sell software in the US, because it promotes piracy. All becuase poeple in Hong Kong are selling millions of copied Windows cds. Say goodby to PC gaming.

MasterD-LeyAmas
06-29-2002, 12:26 PM
Pfffft. The day that happens, someone will bomb congress.
Repeatedly.

Lime-Light
06-29-2002, 12:45 PM
are you saying it wont happen?

Tyrion
06-29-2002, 12:54 PM
No,he's saying that someone will bomb congress...:D :D

Lime-Light
06-29-2002, 12:58 PM
ok.

Kurgan
06-29-2002, 02:53 PM
Spamming to inflate your post count total is bad mmm'kay? ; p

Quality, not quantity, is what counts here.

Anyhow, interesting anecdote, today I was visiting a store in my town (Videogames Etc.!) for the first time, and I noted two little boys (I'd estimate between the ages of 10-12) talking in the store. The place sells and buys video games both old and new (going back to the NES) and the one kid said "I don't buy games anymore, I just pirate them" (to his friend) "You can download them it's so cool."

Still, these guys were going to the store that sold primarily console games (old and new) and old pc games and used dvds. Sure they could be buying hardware, or trading in old games... who knows. I just think it's funny that people like that lack tact, then again these were little kids.

Another funny thing was at another store, in another town here in Iowa at Videogame Depot (formerly Cart Mart, great place btw) some guy told the store keeper that he was buying a game, but wanted to know if he could return it the next day for a full refund after he had pirated it. He couldn't understand why the store guy refused to oblige him. Lol...

Yes, piracy is big, and yes, it's illegal almost everywhere, and yes, it's worse in Asia and other countries than it ever was in North America. It's just that maybe here the laws are in place to give anti-piracy groups more power to throw their weight around (for good or for ill) than elsewhere.

Anyhow, the official policy of this site is not to promote in any way (at our discretion of course) piracy of games, especially piracy of LEC/Raven games, since they visit us and help us out from time to time with info and that sort of thing. So anybody doing any kind of promotions of piracy or 'begging' (see our new "rules of conduct") do so at their own risk!

Chastan
06-29-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Hmm. I read that some old senator fart wants to make it so that software developers cant give out thier source code or allow other countries to sell software in the US, because it promotes piracy. All becuase poeple in Hong Kong are selling millions of copied Windows cds. Say goodby to PC gaming.


This is a true story... I am trying to find a link... basically it would make the GNU license agreement illegal... the bill didn't really make much sense...

Also, I don't like piracy, but I don't like the DMCA, I'm not going to say any more on that, I hope I don't open a can of worms either...

maxtheman
07-01-2002, 11:21 AM
man wtf are you sying, diablo ii was awesome!! im still playing it (must be something about whacking people with a broadaxe and watching them bleed to death with their arns hackedoff, but im getting a little off topic)

and i agree totally, that if you want something, save up and get it, god thats the first thing you learn in this society (besides "dont play on the highway

"Now, joey, i dont want you playing in front of the semitrailers!"
"ok mom i wont"
"SMACK"
"oh my god!!! Joey"

but thats kinda obviouis too)

this society in america is so spoiled, that we think we can get wahtever we want (GTA 3 helps that out a lot,but i still love that game)

Get a live, get a job, buy the full versions, bee cool, stay in school, w/e

by the way im 15, im an idiot, (i play the drums for cryin out loud)and i havemore sense than to just download some warez crap cause i cant buy it (i would know abot not buying things, do you know how much musicians make, or shouldi say dont make?)

Cal-Gon Gin
07-01-2002, 11:52 AM
One of the reasons that some programs like Photoshop or 3DMAX (or some of the specialized software in computer animation or my own field) are so expensive is that their target markets is so small. Photoshop et al. is designed for professional graphic artists/whatevers, and were not intended for the "too young to get a job set"--no offense intended to anyone. This is not to say that amazing things have not been created by interested amatures--I've seen plenty to the contrary. However, they are powerful programs designed by top programmers (emphasis on the "s"--you read the splash page on PS? A cast of thousands wrote it) for relatively small groups of professionals who CAN afford it. I bet there are about twice as many warezed copies of PS than legits out there.

I am not flaming anyone or trying to start an "ageist" thread--just want to put things into context. PS et al. are not written for the typical high school (or earlier) student to buy.

Exterminator234
07-01-2002, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Aoshi
i didnt see any demos when i wanted to buy the game a few months ago. maybe you should get your timeframe straight maybe there are demos NOW but there werent demos when the game was first released. maybe companies should release the game and a demo at the same time i think that would be pretty effective.

get my time frame straight? how could i if you didnt give any indication of what time your talkng about. maybe you get your timeframe straight

maxtheman
07-01-2002, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Cal-Gon Gin
One of the reasons that some programs like Photoshop or 3DMAX (or some of the specialized software in computer animation or my own field) are so expensive is that their target markets is so small. Photoshop et al. is designed for professional graphic artists/whatevers, and were not intended for the "too young to get a job set"--no offense intended to anyone. This is not to say that amazing things have not been created by interested amatures--I've seen plenty to the contrary. However, they are powerful programs designed by top programmers (emphasis on the "s"--you read the splash page on PS? A cast of thousands wrote it) for relatively small groups of professionals who CAN afford it. I bet there are about twice as many warezed copies of PS than legits out there.

I am not flaming anyone or trying to start an "ageist" thread--just want to put things into context. PS et al. are not written for the typical high school (or earlier) student to buy.

hear, hear

i only have photoshop cause my dad is in the graphics business (or was)

and guys, btw there are some great free or inexpensive modellers out there, like strata3d basic