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View Full Version : Do you hate me? (*Warning: Somewhat frank discussion*)


Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 10:45 AM
do you hate me if I dont believe in god?

obi
06-28-2002, 10:48 AM
It's your choice what you beleive. Me, I believe in God.

I won't hate you though. The Bible tells me not to do that. (that part slips by a whole lot of christians these days)

Yom
06-28-2002, 10:48 AM
i dont hate u i respect other peoples beliefs i got my own and i like to hear other too so there i dont hate u

yom

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 10:50 AM
well i beleave that jesus christ is my personal lord and savior but to each his own i always say

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 10:52 AM
Yeah, some christian guy today told me hates me and he would laugh when I burn in hell. We were talking about how the pledge is unconstitutional. Kinda irked me.

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 10:53 AM
Um,it's kinda hard to hate you because of that.I kinda have no religion..I belielve something LIKE christianity,but with other religions in it.I never think my religion is right,I think every single one is as good as the next,except for people who believe in the force...:D

But I do hate you anyways...:D

Edit-you registered before me and I'm on the same title as you...

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Yeah, some christian guy today told me hates me and he would laugh when I burn in hell. We were talking about how the pledge is unconstitutional. Kinda irked me.
what kind of ******* is he i ****ING HATE PEOPLE LIKE THAT. sorry that im getting angry. you know i lost my faith a few years ago but when i started reading the bible i became reborn again so i would ask you to read the bible like a tv evangelist and send me money but i wont.

matt--
06-28-2002, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Yeah, some christian guy today told me hates me and he would laugh when I burn in hell.
Reminds me of a parable...something about a church-goer(or some other Holy guy) and a tax collector. The tax collector was humble, and the other guy wasn't exactly modest...and so God favored the tax collector.

Yom
06-28-2002, 11:10 AM
ok this what i believe in. i believe that god created the big bang ad from there he just sat back drank his coffe and watched how every thing would turn out . so i believ in evolution and stuff like that. but i am allways looking in to other religons and stuff just becuse i whant to see what other people believe in.

warning this next thing is a joke that some one told me so dont get offended and all mad at me get mad at him.. "well i think all the bibel is a shoe repair guide writen by some guy that whanted to make some money but it was mistranslated and then people then elaberated and added on to it then it got to be what it is to day"

there if u are pissed now dont get pissed at me thank u goodnight i will be here all week

yom

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 11:11 AM
I respect christian morals, but I cant believe in something I have no proof of, and I suspect (at least in the case of the hater-guy) the christian morals were wanning.

And I dont like the abundant fear of discrimination with christianity(Yom's post for example!).

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
I respect christian morals, but I cant believe in something I have no proof of, and I suspect (at least in the case of the hater-guy) the christian morals were wanning.
its terrable man

Yom
06-28-2002, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by whitedragon

its terrable man

how is that terrable??

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 11:19 AM
have you heard the story of the catholic preacher. it degrateing it give christianity a bad name

Yom
06-28-2002, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by whitedragon
have you heard the story of the catholic preacher. it degrateing it give christianity a bad name

were is the proof to that there was a original bible were are the original 10 comandments and were is noas arc

i am sorry that i am debating but what i believe in now is what i have believed in for 3 years now and up till 3 years ago i did not believe in aynthing even though i live in the bibel belt it dose not have an impact on me and mostly every one down here is hard core cristian and despit what the preacher did christianity will all ways be one of the biggest religons out there.

sam

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 11:29 AM
Yeah thats got to be a downer...

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 11:31 AM
leave your belefs at the door. it has everything to do with faith

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 11:32 AM
What Iwant to know is why everyone believes in god.

Is it because its true, or becuase you were too young to know or think any different.

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
What Iwant to know is why everyone believes in god.

Because the Romans,Crusaders, English,and Spanish all spread it around like rabbits...

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 11:36 AM
myfriggingspacebarismessed!

imean:

my_spacebar_is_messed_up!

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
myfriggingspacebarismessed!

imean:

my_spacebar_is_messed_up!

Ouch...my monitor is starting to turn yellowish...

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
What Iwant to know is why everyone believes in god.

Is it because its true, or becuase you were too young to know or think any different.
listen dude dont say that **** we werent brain washed. my faith come from the bible and i dont need some head up his ass scientist or liberal trying to make me show proof i do bleave God is real and i think you should think about your faith because theres no second chance at life

Yom
06-28-2002, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
What Iwant to know is why everyone believes in god.

Is it because its true, or becuase you were too young to know or think any different.

true or not i need proof but untill then i will stay right were i am

i think a big part of why they do believe is because there parents drill it in to there heads at a young age

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by whitedragon

listen dude dont say that **** we werent brain washed. my faith come from the bible and i dont need some head up his ass scientist or liberal trying to make me show proof i do bleave God is real and i think you should think about your faith because theres no second chance at life

whoa. it was a question.

Yeah, I think that was a tad hatefull...

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by whitedragon

i think you should think about your faith because theres no second chance at life

Yes,that is SOOOO right.But,how do you know your right?How do you know that all other religions are wrong?How do you know you shouldnt rethink about your faith?All your proof is a bible and your gut feeling.


BTW I believe in God,too.

Yom
06-28-2002, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by whitedragon

listen dude dont say that **** we werent brain washed. my faith come from the bible and i dont need some head up his ass scientist or liberal trying to make me show proof i do bleave God is real and i think you should think about your faith because theres no second chance at life

ok i am not saying it is brain wash or any thing and the last thing i whanted is people is geeting pissed at one onther about this topic

obi
06-28-2002, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by whitedragon

listen dude dont say that **** we werent brain washed. my faith come from the bible and i dont need some head up his ass scientist or liberal trying to make me show proof i do bleave God is real and i think you should think about your faith because theres no second chance at life

should "****" , "ass", and "God" Be in the same Phrase?:confused:

anyways, I think It's rather silly not to believe in God,But that is my opinion, And I respect everyone elses.

READ YA BIBLE, FOO! AND STAY IN SCHOO! AND DRINK YA MILK!

obi
06-28-2002, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Tyrion


Yes,that is SOOOO right.But,how do you know your right?How do you know that all other religions are wrong?How do you know you shouldnt rethink about your faith?All your proof is a bible and your gut feeling.


BTW I believe in God,too.

There is a such thing as "Faith" Tyrion. Thats what your "Gut-feeling" is. :D

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 11:46 AM
Ok, now that we've turned this into a debate on religion, i have some questions.

First, if to not believe is bad, and we get sent to hell if we dont, why would god, in loving us unconditionally, even give us the choice, why would he allow us to not believe, and allow us to be condemned to a fiery hell? Why do poeple with other religionsor lack thereof even exist?

Second, if god is all knowing, perfect, the alpha and the omega and all that, why does he need us? Why and how would a perfect being be lacking of anything, and therefore need to make it (man)?

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by obi-wan13


There is a such thing as "Faith" Tyrion. Thats what your "Gut-feeling" is. :D

11th commandment

Thou shall not mock me.

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 11:49 AM
It makes sense if you're educated on it. I go to a catholic college-preporatory high school and they do a good job teaching theology. I mean, elementary school teachers don't even have to be educated on the subject to teach it.

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 11:51 AM
educate me

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by 123456789101112
It makes sense if you're educated on it. I go to a catholic college-preporatory high school and they do a good job teaching theology. I mean, elementary school teachers don't even have to be educated on the subject to teach it.

I went to a Private Christian school for 5 years,so I'm am biased towards Christianity.

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
why would god, in loving us unconditionally, even give us the choice


He gave us free-will because he loves us unconditionally. How would you like living without a choice?

Yom
06-28-2002, 11:54 AM
Lime-light what do u believe in? if u dont minde me asking

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Ok, now that we've turned this into a debate on religion, i have some questions.

First, if to not believe is bad, and we get sent to hell if we dont, why would god, in loving us unconditionally, even give us the choice, why would he allow us to not believe, and allow us to be condemned to a fiery hell? Why do poeple with other religionsor lack thereof even exist?

Second, if god is all knowing, perfect, the alpha and the omega and all that, why does he need us? Why and how would a perfect being be lacking of anything, and therefore need to make it (man)?
because we dont deserve his gift of eternal life but he gives it too us anyway if everything were fair we would all be burning in hell right now

second God dosent need us where did you get that idea. he created us he dosent need anything and i dont know exactly why he created us God dose whatever he wishes whenever he wishes

obi
06-28-2002, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Ok, now that we've turned this into a debate on religion, i have some questions.

First, if to not believe is bad, and we get sent to hell if we dont, why would god, in loving us unconditionally, even give us the choice, why would he allow us to not believe, and allow us to be condemned to a fiery hell? Why do poeple with other religionsor lack thereof even exist?

Second, if god is all knowing, perfect, the alpha and the omega and all that, why does he need us? Why and how would a perfect being be lacking of anything, and therefore need to make it (man)?

TO answer those questions:

1.God is Loving, loving so much to the point where he gives us a right to choose. An example: If your wife loved you so much, that she gave you the option to Cheat on her, and get away with it, or not to cheat on her. Would you want to honor her, and remain faithful? or would you want to run around on her, and take advantage? That is the kind of love God shows us. (we don't "Cheat" on God, THat is just the only example I could come up with.) and other religions exist because Of Satan. Yes, Satan. He Is a liar, and he manipulates people to do awful things. That is why you must shun Satan.

2.God Is all knowing, perfect, alpha, omega. Technically, God doesn't "need" us. God will always continue to exist. Whether you are with him or not is up to you. And he made Man in his own Image. Satan tried his best to ruin that image.

hope that helped.

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 11:57 AM
..hell was only for BIG sinners?Isnt there something in the middle where you have to do some hard work and time,but you get to go to heaven afterwards?

Yom
06-28-2002, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Ok, now that we've turned this into a debate on religion, i have some questions.

First, if to not believe is bad, and we get sent to hell if we dont, why would god, in loving us unconditionally, even give us the choice, why would he allow us to not believe, and allow us to be condemned to a fiery hell? Why do poeple with other religionsor lack thereof even exist?



this awnser is how i think and me only there mabey a few others but this is me talking.

as i said be for god is just wating the show he is just relaxing and all. so he gives us the choice just to make it more inturesting

yom

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Tyrion
..hell was only for BIG sinners?Isnt there something in the middle where you have to do some hard work and time,but you get to go to heaven afterwards?

purgatory

obi
06-28-2002, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion
..hell was only for BIG sinners?Isnt there something in the middle where you have to do some hard work and time,but you get to go to heaven afterwards?

no. You are referring to "Pergatory"

It doesnt exist. Hell is for people who have not accepted jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. You could be the best person in the world and go to hell.

You could be the awfullest and go to Heaven. Paul used to kill christians. He got saved, And I am 100% sure he is in Heaven now.

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion
..hell was only for BIG sinners?Isnt there something in the middle where you have to do some hard work and time,but you get to go to heaven afterwards?
the cathlocs beleave that there is a place called pugatory that is in between heaven and hell

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13


no. You are referring to "Pergatory"

It doesnt exist. Hell is for people who have not accepted jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. You could be the best person in the world and go to hell.

You could be the awfullest and go to Heaven. Paul used to kill christians. He got saved, And I am 100% sure he is in Heaven now.

Then what's the purpose of the ten commandments?

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:02 PM
if you live a bad life you reward in heaven will not be as great

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13


no. You are referring to "Pergatory"

It doesnt exist.

Yeah it does.... Where did all the people who died before Jesus came go than?
BTW the only unforgivable sin is the total denial of the Holy Spirit meaning that the only sin that cannot be forgivin is if you don't want to be forgiven for it. Nice little tidbit.

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by 123456789101112


Yeah it does.... Where did all the people who died before Jesus came go than?
BTW the only unforgivable sin is the total denial of the Holy Spirit meaning that the only sin that cannot be forgivin is if you don't want to be forgiven for it. Nice little tidbit.
look above you

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion


Then what's the purpose of the ten commandments?

The ten commandments serve as a model of how we should live. Same thing with Jesus. One of His purposes was to be a model to show us how to live.

obi
06-28-2002, 12:09 PM
Tyrion, The Ten COmmandments Are a set of rules to go by.

Whitedragon, Everyone in Heaven will be treated the same.

123456789101112, God came to People in many ways, Through angels, visions, and other things to tell people to believe in him. If they choose not to believe, It was at their own choosing.

CapNColostomy
06-28-2002, 12:09 PM
Belief in something like God goes back to man's eternal quest for immortality. That's the whole secret to life. Not dying. Nobody wants to die, save for radical Palestinian suicide bombers, and a few other people. I do believe in God, and it wasn't drilled into my head. I spent my teenage years as an atheist. I choose to believe. I figure what's the worse that could happen? And if it turns out my faith was misplaced, and I die, and nothing happens other than being burried, then no harm done.

I don't hate you. In fact I'll say a little prayer for you.

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by 123456789101112


The ten commandments serve as a model of how we should live. Same thing with Jesus. One of His purposes was to be a model to show us how to live.
umm jesus wasent a model jesus died for all our sins

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by CapNColostomy
Belief in something like God goes back to man's eternal quest for immortality. That's the whole secret to life. Not dying. Nobody wants to die, save for radical Palestinian suicide bombers, and a few other people. I do believe in God, and it wasn't drilled into my head. I spent my teenage years as an atheist. I choose to believe. I figure what's the worse that could happen? And if it turns out my faith was misplaced, and I die, and nothing happens other than being burried, then no harm done.

I don't hate you. In fact I'll say a little prayer for you.
ok mr atheist what happens after you die. nothing?

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon

look above you

I was asking obi-wan13 that question since he said that pergatory doesn't exist. That's why I quoted him.

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 12:11 PM
To answer Yom's question, I dont really believe in any kind of religion. I have no personal proof of there being any gods. Not to say there isnt, I cant prove or disprove it. I would say Im nuetral, I dont really care what one person believes from the next, so long as those beliefs dont cause them to act unnacceptably towards me. I do hold the belief that religion is something for old men to ponder, not children. Children dont have the ability to discern for themselves what they see as true. I'd rather find out at the last moment anyway. Why concern myself with it while im busy living?

One thing I do have a problem with is the breaks in the constitution due to christianity. America was founded on religious freedoms, and being someone who doenst believe in god, I dont get the feeling I have that freedom. Maybe legally, but not in real life. I do live in the bible belt, and I came from Canada; where you're reigion is really unimportant, and never comes up, its more personal; so I may just be over-sensitive. All i have to say is being a minority sux. I was never a joiner anyway :D

obi
06-28-2002, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon

umm jesus wasent a model jesus died for all our sins

Jesus was a model as well. His teachings, for example.

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
Whitedragon, Everyone in Heaven will be treated the same.


thats not what it says in the bible. it says that you will be happey even if your reward is not as great as others you will still be equally happy

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon

umm jesus wasent a model jesus died for all our sins

Dood, read the whole thing. You are just looking at parts of my explanations. I said ONE of His puposes....... and yes he was a model. He showed us how to live. We follow His example of hoe He lived. He also died for our sins.

obi
06-28-2002, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon

thats not what it says in the bible. it says that you will be happey even if your reward is not as great as others you will still be equally happy

where does it say this? I only have read "Great shall be thoust reward"

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon

ok mr atheist what happens after you die. nothing?
D00D!!!!!!!! Read the whole thing. He said he WAS an atheist during his teen years and that he chooses to believe now. WTF? Please read the whole thing.

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by 123456789101112

D00D!!!!!!!! Read the whole thing. He said he WAS an atheist during his teen years and that he chooses to believe now. WTF? Please read the whole thing.
sorry i appologise im just....well LASY

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 12:18 PM
So nobody is paying attention to me now? Waaaah.

Yom
06-28-2002, 12:18 PM
all i have to say is the bible belt sux i cant what to get out of school and go to new york to THE C.I.A. (culinay institut of amarica) cuz every time i get asked what do u believe in god it starts this whole converstion up. like the one we are having now

yom

obi
06-28-2002, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
So nobody is paying attention to me now? Waaaah.

I know you are, but what am I?

:p

I listen to you.:D

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
To answer Yom's question, I dont really believe in any kind of religion. I have no personal proof of there being any gods. Not to say there isnt, I cant prove or disprove it. I would say Im nuetral, I dont really care what one person believes from the next, so long as those beliefs dont cause them to act unnacceptably towards me. I do hold the belief that religion is something for old men to ponder, not children. Children dont have the ability to discern for themselves what they see as true. I'd rather find out at the last moment anyway. Why concern myself with it while im busy living?

One thing I do have a problem with is the breaks in the constitution due to christianity. America was founded on religious freedoms, and being someone who doenst believe in god, I dont get the feeling I have that freedom. Maybe legally, but not in real life. I do live in the bible belt, and I came from Canada; where you're reigion is really unimportant, and never comes up, its more personal; so I may just be over-sensitive. All i have to say is being a minority sux. I was never a joiner anyway :D

One thing that I ask you than, if you are an atheist, is why do you strive to do good? If there is no God, than nothing matters. It should all be about you. Why do you care if you do good towards others than? Do what you want to do. It's all for you than. Yet, you strive to do good things. Do what you want, even if it means doing something mean or bad. You see what I'm saying? I'm not trying to be mean I just want to know.

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:20 PM
fine we can end this right now and have this argument meaning less because yom dosent want to talk about it

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 12:20 PM
Golden social rule...

Never discuss politics or Religion...

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon

sorry i appologise im just....well LASY

Hehe! It's ok. No problem. I admit to skimming over some of these too. :D :D

TheJackal
06-28-2002, 12:22 PM
Then LimeLIght you would be the more scientific type. You need scientific proof for certain events or any other of the sort. Am I right?

Personnaly, I'm catholic... on paper. However I'm not a religious man. I know allmost nothing about the Bible. Only those quotes Hollywood loves to use so often.

I have nothing wrong against other religions and thier beliefs. However I understand why some people are deeply religious. I see quite often some people blasting religion and that it is the only cause for war and social problems in the world.

In a way that is correct. But there is a reason some people hold dearly to thier faith. Hope and the need to believe in something.

Plain and simple. I know there might be other things, but quite often those two are the main reasons. The problem with religious conflicts (the most famous right now is the Middle East and Ireland) is because when something turns into a social gathering, the IQ litteraly lowers.

Its like a social conscience and the social memory. They are both short and small. The Social memory would be about 6 months. People are allmost allready forgetting about September 11th. They mostly just know, and care, about bombing countries they think they are a threat to social security.

Now this is not a personnal opinion, just a personnal view I noticed while looking at the news paper and the televion every day.

Right now Bush and American are talking more often Iran, Iraq and the Middle East instead of the Al Qeada and Bin Laden. Sure he's still the topic from time to time. But since nobody captured him why not try to ignore the fact that he HASN'T been caught yet. This is probebly what Bin Laden wants. To be slowly forgotten and then he'll show his face again on television and the world.

Well, thats my rant for today. I hope nobody got offended. Nothing mean or cold hearted was ment. Just voicing my opinion on such matters. If you do have a problem, feel free to contact me and I'll apoplogize and edit this post.

I'll keep an eye on this thread so nothing happens however. Like a flame war or insults on other religions, believes and people.

obi
06-28-2002, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by 123456789101112


One thing that I ask you than, if you are an atheist, is why do you strive to do good? If there is no God, than nothing matters. It should all be about you. Why do you care if you do good towards others than? Do what you want to do. It's all for you than. Yet, you strive to do good things. Do what you want, even if it means doing something mean or bad. You see what I'm saying? I'm not trying to be mean I just want to know.

differance between Atheist, and Butt hole.

Yom
06-28-2002, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
So nobody is paying attention to me now? Waaaah.

i am paying attenti....oh... look...i found a donut! ya!!
:D
what are we talking about agin:D
yom

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion
Golden social rule...

Never discuss politics or Religion...
why because some people get offended. BIG DEAL

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion
Golden social rule...

Never discuss politics or Religion...

Actually, the golden rule is to treat others like you would yourself and to love God with your whole heart. Whichever. :D Hehe. I guess that may be the golden social rule.... but I think that this golden rule is more imprtant.

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13


differance between Atheist, and Butt hole.
thats a tough one.....aw hell next question

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 12:24 PM
Why do I do good things and not hate my fellow human being?

Becuase Im a human being too! Becuase I dont need some god to tell me right from wrong. We humans are born with it. I feel personal guilt when I do something wrong, I dont feel the need to be evil. I am not influenced by some evil "satan" to do wrong and have bad judgement, or to hurt poeple for personal gians. I want poeple to like me. Will I go to hell for being selfish?

Yom
06-28-2002, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon
fine we can end this right now and have this argument meaning less because yom dosent want to talk about it

i can and i will if u whant me to the only thing is i just dont whant to piss people off and get them all mad at me and they will never talk to me agin

yom

TheJackal
06-28-2002, 12:26 PM
wow. i just realised I went from one topic to a completly new one.

oops.


sorry :( :D

obi
06-28-2002, 12:26 PM
It wasn't a question. It's almost 1 in the mornin, so I probably don't make much sense. What I meant was:

There is a differencr between athiests and Butt holes.

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:27 PM
Science and Religion can co-exist.... http://forum.jedioutcastmaps.com/emoticons/eyeraise.gif

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Why do I do good things and not hate my fellow human being?

Becuase Im a human being too! Becuase I dont need some god to tell me right from wrong. We humans are born with it. I feel personal guilt when I do something wrong, I dont feel the need to be evil. I am not influenced by some evil "satan" to do wrong and have bad judgement, or to hurt poeple for personal gians. I want poeple to like me. Will I go to hell for being selfish?
no but you will if you dont beleave that jesus died for your sins

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
It wasn't a question. It's almost 1 in the mornin, so I probably don't make much sense. What I meant was:

There is a differencr between athiests and Butt holes.
no

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Yom


i can and i will if u whant me to the only thing is i just dont whant to piss people off and get them all mad at me and they will never talk to me agin

yom
no i wont never talk to you again but if you dont like this topic then just get off

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 12:30 PM
Thats what I mean. You DO hate me becuase Idont believe in your god.

That, to me, is sick and wrong. No different from racism.

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Why do I do good things and not hate my fellow human being?

Becuase Im a human being too! Becuase I dont need some god to tell me right from wrong. We humans are born with it. I feel personal guilt when I do something wrong, I dont feel the need to be evil. I am not influenced by some evil "satan" to do wrong and have bad judgement, or to hurt poeple for personal gians. I want poeple to like me. Will I go to hell for being selfish?
I meant this, not really why don't you just do what you want.


Why do you strive to do good things? (scenario) If an old lady is having trouble carrying her grocery bags, do you go and grab one and help her carry it? If someone falls, do you help them back up? If you see a person in need, do you come to their aid? If so, than why?

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 12:31 PM
Hypothetical question.

I am a Budah worshiper.I think that you will all go to my version of hell if you dont believe in Budah.

What are you gonna do?

obi
06-28-2002, 12:32 PM
I don't think Lime-light is a butt hole. he may be athiest, but not a butt hole.

We as christians need to learn how to be patient. You could almost say we need to live like Jedi(light side of course). We don't get all of the cool powers along with it, though.

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion
Hypothetical question.

I am a Budah worshiper.I think that you will all go to my version of hell if you dont believe in Budah.

What are you gonna do?
listen little kid buda beleaved in christ too

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Thats what I mean. You DO hate me becuase Idont believe in your god.

That, to me, is sick and wrong. No different from racism.

I don't hate you. Maybe Whitedragon or whomever does, but they shouldn't, especially if they are here arguing for Christianity. It would be similar to racism if someone hated you for that reason. If he does truely hate you for that, than he should not be here representing Christianity.

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion
Hypothetical question.

I am a Budah worshiper.I think that you will all go to my version of hell if you dont believe in Budah.

What are you gonna do?

Sorry, I'm taking World Religions first semester next year.

obi
06-28-2002, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by 123456789101112


I don't hate you. Maybe Whitedragon or whomever does, but they shouldn't, especially if they are here arguing for Christianity. It would be similar to racism if someone hated you for that reason. If he does truely hate you for that, than he should not be here representing Christianity.

Read my post. I say almost the same thing.

you go 123456789101112!!!!!

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by 123456789101112

I meant this, not really why don't you just do what you want.


Why do you strive to do good things? (scenario) If an old lady is having trouble carrying her grocery bags, do you go and grab one and help her carry it? If someone falls, do you help them back up? If you see a person in need, do you come to their aid? If so, than why?

What you are really saying is that you assume I dont. My answer is, why not? What is wrong with helping someone? What harm comes to me? Im not saying Im some perfect person, supremely kind and nice, but I dont see the purpose of your question. What reason would I have to not help anyone?

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon

listen little kid buda beleaved in christ too

*sigh* you missed my point.

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by 123456789101112


I don't hate you. Maybe Whitedragon or whomever does, but they shouldn't, especially if they are here arguing for Christianity. It would be similar to racism if someone hated you for that reason. If he does truely hate you for that, than he should not be here representing Christianity.
don t you dare think that i hate him because hes an athiest. i may get a little hot under the coller but i do not hate him

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion


*sigh* you missed my point.
what is your point

obi
06-28-2002, 12:38 PM
now I am the one being ignored :rolleyes:

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 12:39 PM
Buddhists beleive life is hell, and you must achieve xen, oneness, to escape it.

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light


What you are really saying is that you assume I dont. My answer is, why not? What is wrong with helping someone? What harm comes to me? Im not saying Im some perfect person, supremely kind and nice, but I dont see the purpose of your question. What reason would I have to not help anyone?

Well it doesn't make sense (to me at least) that you would do a good deed and than say that God doesn't exist. Your actions show that God is working through you. That's what I see.

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon

what is your point

Nevermind.

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by 123456789101112


Well it doesn't make sense (to me at least) that you would do a good deed and than say that God doesn't exist. Your actions show that God is working through you. That's what I see.
great examle 123

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 12:41 PM
Oh. Well I see good and bad things as both part of human nature, not the workings of a supreme being. Never know...maybe IAM the tool of god! But I think whitedragon would explode if anyone cliamed that....

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon

don t you dare think that i hate him because hes an athiest. i may get a little hot under the coller but i do not hate him

Ok. It just seemed like you acted rather harshly towards him. I mean, he even said that you hate him. Sorry if I falsely accused you. :D

obi
06-28-2002, 12:42 PM
*points to previous posts that I made*

This, Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Is further proof I am being ignored.

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion


Nevermind.
so you dident have one

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 12:43 PM
Yeah i just noticed.....SIIIIIIIITH!!! w00t.

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by 123456789101112


Ok. It just seemed like you acted rather harshly towards him. I mean, he even said that you hate him. Sorry if I falsely accused you. :D
look at my posts on the irst page

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
*points to previous posts that I made*

This, Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Is further proof I am being ignored.

I see you. :D

obi
06-28-2002, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by 123456789101112


I see you. :D

YOU DO?!?!?

*jumps in bush*

How bout now?

:D

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon

so you dident have one

No,It was that you guys thought that your religion was the only true one,and that anybody that didnt believe in that would go to hell.So,if somebody else said that for a different religion,what would you say?

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:47 PM
ok obi-wan what do you want

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Never know...maybe IAM the tool of god!

I wouldn't think of it as a tool of God...hehe Oh, well. You never know. Maybe I die and go to a place only to find out that the almighty creator is a a big cow. Than I'd be screwed. Hehe. See, you just gotta have a little faith now and than. It's inside of ya.

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion


No,It was that you guys thought that your religion was the only true one,and that anybody that didnt believe in that would die.So,if somebody else said that for a different religion,what would you say?


That they're still wrong probably...

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion


No,It was that you guys thought that your religion was the only true one,and that anybody that didnt believe in that would die.So,if somebody else said that for a different religion,what would you say?
pick a different religion

obi
06-28-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon
ok obi-wan what do you want

Oh, so NOW you ask me what I want. Well, I don't want anything now :p

*crosses arms, turns back*

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13


YOU DO?!?!?

*jumps in bush*

How bout now?

:D

Yeah I see you.
*hides under desk*
Can you see me?

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light



That they're still wrong probably...

Ignorant...

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 12:51 PM
Who, me?

MotionMan
06-28-2002, 12:51 PM
I dont want to get into this cause I can go on for days on end with this topic. Ill just say this:

The Bible most of you guys have read isnt translated 100% from the original hebrew version. Hebrew is impossible to translate into english, keeping its 100% meaning. I wont go into how the Bible just borrowed all of its stories from much older sources and altered them a bit. Anyhow in the original hebrew bible its says "The Eloheim created man" Eloheim was translated as "GOD". Eloheim is in fact Plural. It actually means "GODS."

Anyhow I dont think this is the place for this type of discusion.:)

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13


Oh, so NOW you ask me what I want. Well, I don't want anything now :p

*crosses arms, turns back*
im sorry about that buddy how about i buy you a ice cream damit

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by MotionMan
I dont want to get into this cause I can go on for days on end with this topic. Ill just say this:

The Bible most of you guys have read isnt translated 100% from the original hebrew version. Hebrew is impossible to translate into english, keeping its 100% meaning. I wont go into how the Bible just borrowed all of its stories from much older sources and altered them a bit. Anyhow in the original hebrew bible its says "The Eloheim created man" Eloheim was translated as "GOD". Eloheim is in fact Plural. It actually means "GODS."

Anyhow I dont think this is the place for this type of discusion.:)





ok, theres a man who KNOWS something.

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Who, me?
dont worry ignor him lime light

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion


No,It was that you guys thought that your religion was the only true one,and that anybody that didnt believe in that would die.So,if somebody else said that for a different religion,what would you say?

The thing about that is.... Not to offend anyone. I mean you can believe what you want in all. I hope not to offend anyone. For Christianity, we either have the ace card or we have the joker. I mean, there is proof about certain key facts about Christianity. There is written documentation(other than the bible) of there being a man named Jesus, that Pontius Pilate killed him, that he was crucifed etc... So, there is proof of all of these things.

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon

dont worry ignor him lime light


Yeah,you can ignore me.I dont really care if you do or dont.

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by MotionMan
I dont want to get into this cause I can go on for days on end with this topic. Ill just say this:

The Bible most of you guys have read isnt translated 100% from the original hebrew version. Hebrew is impossible to translate into english, keeping its 100% meaning. I wont go into how the Bible just borrowed all of its stories from much older sources and altered them a bit. Anyhow in the original hebrew bible its says "The Eloheim created man" Eloheim was translated as "GOD". Eloheim is in fact Plural. It actually means "GODS."

Anyhow I dont think this is the place for this type of discusion.:)
i agree with that but that still dosent mean that God dosent exist

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by 123456789101112

I mean, there is proof about certain key facts about Christianity. There is written documentation(other than the bible) of there being a man named Jesus, that Pontius Pilate killed him, that he was crucifed etc... So, there is proof of all of these things.

Sure, there is proof some things in the bible, but that doesnt make it all true.

CapNColostomy
06-28-2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion


No,It was that you guys thought that your religion was the only true one,and that anybody that didnt believe in that would die.

It doesn't matter if you worship toilet paper and swear that twinkies are the tools of Lucifer. You're still going to die...

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 12:58 PM
Everybody dies.

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by MotionMan
I dont want to get into this cause I can go on for days on end with this topic. Ill just say this:

The Bible most of you guys have read isnt translated 100% from the original hebrew version. Hebrew is impossible to translate into english, keeping its 100% meaning. I wont go into how the Bible just borrowed all of its stories from much older sources and altered them a bit. Anyhow in the original hebrew bible its says "The Eloheim created man" Eloheim was translated as "GOD". Eloheim is in fact Plural. It actually means "GODS."

Anyhow I dont think this is the place for this type of discusion.:)

Yeah, We could argue this for days. One thing about the Bible is that a lot of it isn't meant to be taken literally. You do lose some of the meaning though translation yes, but I think that the majority of the context kept it's meaning.

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by CapNColostomy


It doesn't matter if you worship toilet paper and swear that twinkies are the tools of Lucifer. You're still going to die...

I meant go to hell,gonna change that right now.

obi
06-28-2002, 01:00 PM
All I can say is Mr.T is goin to bed. Have fun debating Religion in a George Lucas forum.

Read ya bible, foo!

CapNColostomy
06-28-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light


Sure, there is proof some things in the bible, but that doesnt make it all true.

That's what proof means! Something that's been proven true. There can't be proof, and no truth.

whitedragon
06-28-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light


Sure, there is proof some things in the bible, but that doesnt make it all true.
im out of this thread i mean i couldent talk to any of you even if i had a gun and alot of people say that i think that im better than everyone else which is utter BULL****. if none of you can have any respect for me and my religion then i dont have any for you.

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 01:02 PM
There may be proof ofa Jesus, but no record ofhim being a son of a god anywhere but the bible. That means its the only source of this information from that time period, making impossible to prove.

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light


Sure, there is proof some things in the bible, but that doesnt make it all true.

Yes, that doesn't necessarily make everything true. All those facts and other written documentationthat I mentioned means this:

The basic story of Jesus is true.

Now that we know that the basic story of Jesus is true, three conclusions can be deriven from that(brief overview of this). Jesus was the Lord, a liar, or a lunatic. If he is the Lord, than Christianity is right. If he was a liar, than why would he die for a lie? If he was a lunatic, than why would the disciples and everyone else die for a lie?

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon

im out of this thread i mean i couldent talk to any of you even if i had a gun and alot of people say that i think that im better than everyone else which is utter BULL****. if none of you can have any respect for me and my religion then i dont have any for you.

Holy ****. I didnt disrespect you or your religion. Your absolute closed-mindedness makes me very frustrated and sad for you.

MotionMan
06-28-2002, 01:04 PM
Religion is a touchy subject. Everyone should be free to believe what they please to. This isnt the place to discus it I think.

Anyhow ill go back to my feeble existance:)
No more preaching for me.
See ya guys in the other threads.

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 01:05 PM
Yeah, sorry for starting this whole debate.

And I meanto say: Sure there is proof of some things in the bible, but that doesnt make it all true.

If that clarifies. I forgot the of.

CapNColostomy
06-28-2002, 01:08 PM
Yeah, I'm outta this one too. Not because I'm mad, but I think we're all beating a dead horse here. And hey! speaking of dead, for more after-life fun be sure and have a peek at the Jackie Chan vs. Bruce Lee thread.

Bottom line, I don't think anybody here hates you man. At least I can say I don't. I don't even know you for crying out loud.

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon

im out of this thread i mean i couldent talk to any of you even if i had a gun and alot of people say that i think that im better than everyone else which is utter BULL****. if none of you can have any respect for me and my religion then i dont have any for you.

I am fine with you. I don't know why you're getting out of hand here. Lime thought that you hated him cuz he was an atheist. I just wanted it to be know that that is not what a Christian would do. But, as you said, you don't hate him so everything's fine.

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 01:10 PM
Yeah, so we're done here. Im sure white dislikes me because I "insulted" him, but I assumed that would happen.

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by MotionMan
Religion is a touchy subject. Everyone should be free to believe what they please to. This isnt the place to discus it I think.

Anyhow ill go back to my feeble existance:)
No more preaching for me.
See ya guys in the other threads.

I think that if the subject comes up, you should be able to defend and support your religion. This seems to be a fine place to discuss this. We have to go to a religion forum or something? I don't get it. This is General Discussion right? I mean, an admin said it was fine, he even replied to this. Maybe we should move this to the Vally of the Jedi......

Tyrion
06-28-2002, 01:11 PM
Yeah,I'm leaving too.

Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Yeah, so we're done here. Im sure white dislikes me because I "insulted" him, but I assumed that would happen.

We're done if your original question here has been answered. Has it? You don't sound too sure with words like I assume and I'm sure that.... oh, well. *sigh*

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 01:14 PM
It was in the first place. Then Iwas stupid enough to ask questions. Never ask questions.

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
It was in the first place. Then Iwas stupid enough to ask questions. Never ask questions.

If you have questions about your faith or whatnot, it's ok to ask them. It just didn't seem like you were too sure by saying I assume and I'm sure that. Oh, well. Everyone left.

Lime-Light
06-28-2002, 01:22 PM
They were questions some didnt like....

Anyway, discussion is over.

And I'm getting tired of smashing my spacebar to type....

It was a nice journey of lighting fast 142 posts and 500 views

TheJackal
06-28-2002, 01:41 PM
Here's something for you guys.

Now I herd this somewhere else, can't remember, and it is NOT my opinion.

What IF the Bible is exactly what it is... a book!
A fictional book written a very long time ago that people took too seriously. What if this was just a book some talented and imaginitive guy wrote and sold it off to people. What if it was a groupe of people...

I could go on. There's soo many WHAT IFs that debates will last for ever.


so I hope this concludes this thread.

ITs like a law! every forum has to have a religious debat thread. Its the nightmares of all admins and moderators (we just hate it when people get furious and heated. Whatever your religion is, we still need to keep order in here :) )

I'm off to bed!

Good night!
Bonne nuit!
Gute Nacht!
¡Buonas noches!
Buona notte!
Boa noite!

Divine Spirit
06-28-2002, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by TheJackal
What IF the Bible is exactly what it is... a book!
A fictional book written a very long time ago that people took too seriously. What if this was just a book some talented and imaginitive guy wrote and sold it off to people.

yeah RIGHT

next youll be telling me Lord of the Rings was just a book!

obi
06-28-2002, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Divine Spirit


yeah RIGHT

next youll be telling me Lord of the Rings was just a book!

Actually, J.R.R Tolkein Is a christian, and he puts Christian ethics in his books:p

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13


Actually, J.R.R Tolkein Is a christian, and he puts Christian ethics in his books:p

Yeah that's true. Thanks for bumping this. *sigh* :(

BlackDove
06-28-2002, 10:08 PM
Wow...4 pages on a religious thread...what a waste of time...

123456789101112
06-28-2002, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by =SSC=Kal-El
Wow...4 pages on a religious thread...what a waste of time...

Hey, buddy, your a waste of time.

FunClown
06-28-2002, 10:17 PM
What exactly is a bible belt? I hear people complain that they live in predominantly Christian communities but I want to know how that affects non-believers? Is it really as bad as people say.

I live in a place of many religions. Basically, in my experience you can only talk about religion with people who are fairly set in their beliefs otherwise they start to get offended. But it is interesting learning about other peoples beliefs.

Yom
06-29-2002, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by FunClown
What exactly is a bible belt? I hear people complain that they live in predominantly Christian communities but I want to know how that affects non-believers? Is it really as bad as people say.

I live in a place of many religions. Basically, in my experience you can only talk about religion with people who are fairly set in their beliefs otherwise they start to get offended. But it is interesting learning about other peoples beliefs.

the bibel belt is made up of a few states in the us. manily alabama georga and mississippi and a few others and i live in alabama were there is alot of hard core Christians and they will go on rampages if they fide out if i came out and said what i believ (see page 1) and religon down here afects everything.

snd my speeling sux today

Dath Maximus
06-29-2002, 03:47 AM
I leave for a couple of hours and this is created?

My my my. Maybe i wont leave you people agian.

Go ME!

SaberPro
06-29-2002, 03:49 AM
I don't believe in Gods.

And I think it'd make more sense if you said "Do you fear me if I don't believe in Gods?"

Hehehe I don't know what I'm talking about anymore... *got...to...sleep...*

Divine Spirit
06-29-2002, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by SaberPro
I don't believe in Gods.

And I think it'd make more sense if you said "Do you fear me if I don't believe in Gods?"

Hehehe I don't know what I'm talking about anymore... *got...to...sleep...*

:rolleyes:




join U JAC OFF, the religion for everyone!

Vestril
06-29-2002, 06:53 AM
I've read all of this, and I tried to consider it from an objective point of view...and then it occured to me.

What if someone who was totally neutral came into the world. Which religion would he pick? Why?

I mean people in America become christians for the most part, they mainly believe in christianity. Because it's the better religion and they're smarter?...

NO

Because most of the people around them are christians. That's obvious, and should be obvious to anyone here. I mean you don't meet many people who are born and raised in China who are followers of Christ...why? Again, because the people around them are...buddhists?? I'm sorry to say I don't know which religion the majority of Chinese people are...though I'm certain it isn't Christianity.

So from this our neutral observer can note that people mostly pick their religions because it's what they're raised to do. So then our follower has to ignore people who follow religions. He has to assume that they are biased because of conditioning--in other words, they're a tainted source.

So it also discounts sheer numbers for religion, which is a good thing for you christians, because if the neutral observer went by numbers, I'm reasonable certain that christianity isn't the leasing religion on the planet, since most of the population lives in China and India ;)

Even if they didn't, which christian religion would he pick? I mean christianity has to be one of the most splintered religions on the planet, there are so many variances from christian religion to christian religion, and the people in each faction can hate one another. They've even gone to war with one another...

To my thinking this would be a strong negative, for the neutral observer--any religion that causes fighting within itself can't be very strong. I mean technically the roman Catholics believe that the methodists are going to hell, and the Mormans think everyone else is going to hell...and it goes on and on.

So perhaps he would consider the sources? Go off and read these many books that cause these religions. Well then things would get damn confusing. He would learn that most of these religions teach basically the same things, but use different methods to get it across. There are basic differences, but basically they want you to be a decent person. I suspect at this point our neutral observer would be torn, because no religion can PROVE everything it says. Because he doesn't have a relgious prefereces to lean to, or to rebel against, he would be stuck in a place where they all look the same.

So that's what might happen there...

So let's talk about me for a little bit. I went to a Catholic school, and was raised a roman Catholic by an Anglican, and a Catholic who was too busy working to go to church. After I got out of Catholic school, I thought and thought about things, and I read about other religions, eastern religions, islamic religions, trying to find one that suited me, and then I realized something.

If I commit to a religion, I commit to the possibility that they will tell me something that is wrong. For example, I believe that pre-marital sex, masturbation, and homosexual sex is fine. To each his own, who really cares what other people do with their bodies. If I became a Catholic, then I would be a hypocrite, because I would subscribe to a religion that says a neutral thing is bad. So it occured to me that I should follow my own beliefs, however I came about them, and not subscribe to ONE system of beliefs.

This is preferable for one major reason: it allows for change.

According to the bible you're not supposed to eat meat on some certain days and all kinds of nonsense that no one cares about now--it didn't change, and it should have. Life is change, and if you lock yourself into one religion, then those are your beliefs, for the rest of your life.

If, however, you allow yourself the freedom of belief, then you can change your mind. You are free to say 'I was wrong for believing in that, I can see that now.'

This is a powerful tool though, and few people are able to accept it's burden, and some people are not moral enough to operate without some belief structure telling them that they have to. Well I am able to be a good person without the fear of hell, or the promise of heaven. I am able to make moral choices, and I am able to feel guilty when I do things that I believe are wrong.

You won't go to hell if you lead a good life, but don't believe in Jesus--that's nonsense. If there is a hell, and there is a god who is all powerful and all knowing, your believing or not believing in him won't matter, because otherwise he would have to be one egotistical son of a bitch, and ego is a product of imperfection.

Lead a good life, and don't get wrapped up in that god stuff, it's WAY above your puny brain, and mine.

Divine Spirit
06-29-2002, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by Vestril
I've read all of this, and I tried to consider it from an objective point of view...and then it occured to me.

What if someone who was totally neutral came into the world. Which religion would he pick? Why?

i assume they would just not pick a religion. If theyve lived their life so far without religion then why should they suddenly pick something they havent even thought of before?

if your talking about 'and they HAD to pick a religion' i suppose ur right- i didnt read the whole thing so ill give u the benefit of the doubt :p :D but thanks for the input

BlackDove
06-29-2002, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by 123456789101112


Hey, buddy, your a waste of time.

I don't think so

Vestril
06-29-2002, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Divine Spirit


i assume they would just not pick a religion. If theyve lived their life so far without religion then why should they suddenly pick something they havent even thought of before?

if your talking about 'and they HAD to pick a religion' i suppose ur right- i didnt read the whole thing so ill give u the benefit of the doubt :p :D but thanks for the input

You're really bad at thought experiments...you know that??? :p (just kidding you :))

Ok ok, allow me to qualify this a little. This hypothetical being just came into existence, a fully cognizent being, and has only a sense of right and wrong. If you say 'is murder wrong?' he'll be able to answer you, but if you ask him 'what is wrong and what is right?' he won't know, because it's not a knowledge, it's a feeling.

His guidelines as to what specifically is right or wrong isn't pertinent, just to head off all of you naysayers (though thankfully most of the idiots proclaimed that they were leaving this thread...)

123456789101112
06-29-2002, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Vestril

For example, I believe that pre-marital sex, masturbation, and homosexual sex is fine. To each his own, who really cares what other people do with their bodies.

Vestril,
I read everything you said and I understand everything that you said. One thing that I want to point out here. Those things are wrong. Homosexuality is wrong for two reasons: It is not love cummunicating and there is no openess to having a child. Anal sex is wrong no matter what. It is even wrong for a woman and a man to have anal sex. Oral sex is wrong too. Neither thing is love communicating and there is no openess to having a child. If there is no way that a child could be the possible outcome of that act, than it's wrong. Mastubation is wrong becuz that of those two reasons and cuz it devalues the act of sexual intercourse. You say who cares what other people do with their bodies. I don't get that. So are you saying that abortions are ok than? Cuz the main reason why people say that abortions are ok is cuz it's a female's body and she can do with it what she wants. Like it or not, the child is not part of her body. It is distinct and different. She is merely carrying it. It is an individual being. That's one thing that is wrong with pre-marital sex than. It creates the atmosphere that sex is fine and if you do accidentally get her pregnant, you can just have an abortion. Sex is supposed to be love communicating. How does that communicate love? If we do have a child, the product of our love, we can just delete it if we don't want it. That's why you have to wait till marraige. How would you like it if your mom choose to have an abortion? You would never have existed. Ah, but she could have if she wanted to right? If you truely feel that people are able to do what they want with their body, than you would have to be against abortion. Sure, your mom is allowed to do what she wants with her own body, but does that mean that she's able to force you do what she wants? So, people are able to do what they want and I guess they can force you to do what they want, even if you don't want it. You don't get a say in this. The father doesn't get a say either. How is that fair? You can't just do whatever you want with your body just becuz it's yours. I have a car. It's mine. That doesn't mean that I can just go and drive it wherever I want to or drive recklessly. I can't go drive it into a building. You might say well the building is not yours so you can't drive it into a building. Guess what, that child is not yours either. Just like there are certain responsibilities that you must follow when you go out onto the road while driving a car, the same thing applies to the child.

BTW, you say that your environment affects your religion. Guess what. It does. However, that does not mean that becuz everyone around you is Christian that you have to be Christian too. You still can choose. They teach me Christain values in school. They present the material to me, I don't have to accept it. My friend goes to a Catholic school and he's a atheist. Your environment doesn't mean that that's what you have to be.

aNaL tHeRapisT
06-29-2002, 08:19 AM
Ehh... too much to read...

so I'll post a picture I think is relevant.

http://members.optushome.com.au/phillj11/ForumPics/STFU3.jpg

Wacky_Baccy
06-29-2002, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Vestril
I've read all of this, and I tried to consider it from an objective point of view...and then it occured to me.

What if someone who was totally neutral came into the world. Which religion would he pick? Why?

I mean people in America become christians for the most part, they mainly believe in christianity. Because it's the better religion and they're smarter?...

NO

<snip>


Lead a good life, and don't get wrapped up in that god stuff, it's WAY above your puny brain, and mine.

I'm shocked and slightly disturbed at how completely I agree with your post, Vestril... It's like you took the thoughts right out of my mind... :eyeraise: (seriously)

Posted by 123456789101112

BTW, you say that your environment affects your religion. Guess what. It does. However, that does not mean that becuz everyone around you is Christian that you have to be Christian too. You still can choose. They teach me Christain values in school. They present the material to me, I don't have to accept it. My friend goes to a Catholic school and he's a atheist. Your environment doesn't mean that that's what you have to be.

He didn't say that if everyone around you were Christian (or whatever) you would have to be too; he said that the major religion in a society affects and influences the numbers of people who practise/subscribe to it (the bigger it gets, the less room for change/variation there is), and affects the way most people in that society live their lives (imposed morals/values).

The rest of your post is debatable, but I don't really feel like debating right now (too tired) - so I'll leave that to Vestril :D

Vestril
06-29-2002, 08:25 AM
BTW, you say that your environment affects your religion. Guess what. It does. However, that does not mean that becuz everyone around you is Christian that you have to be Christian too. You still can choose. They teach me Christain values in school. They present the material to me, I don't have to accept it. My friend goes to a Catholic school and he's a atheist. Your environment doesn't mean that that's what you have to be.

Of course you can, I never said you couldn't. I'm talking about raw numbers. If it didn't affect it, then we would have islam, christianity, buddism, and all of that other stuff spread in a somewhat equal manner. Instead we have concentrations of each religion in certain areas. This leads to the reasonably obvious conclusion that enviornment affects your judgement. It doesn't HAVE to affect it, but it can.


Homosexuality is wrong for two reasons: It is not love cummunicating and there is no openess to having a child.

Bull. Homosexuality, just like heterosexuality, can be about love or lust. Do not generalize like that, it suggests that you are ignorant. Also, some women are infertile, if they get married, should they be unable to have sex? Homosexual couples are able to adopt, from the children that some heterosexual couples were too cowardly or callous to raise (that is generalizing, I know--some people are forced into that situation, fair enough).

It is even wrong for a woman and a man to have anal sex. Oral sex is wrong too. Neither thing is love communicating and there is no openess to having a child. If there is no way that a child could be the possible outcome of that act, than it's wrong. Mastubation is wrong becuz that of those two reasons and cuz it devalues the act of sexual intercourse.

When I eat a cheesburger, it isn't love communicating. Does that mean that I can't eat cheesburgers? Also, Masturbation doesn't devalue the act of sex, it potentially enhances it, especially for women. It's generally more difficult for a woman to have an orgasm than a man, and one friend of mine put it bluntly: 'it's because we don't practice as much.' Intimate knowledge of yourself allows you to better understand what pleases you, which you can communicate to your partner, thus allowing for better sex.

Why does sex have to result in a child? It's just something that two people do...holding hands doesn't result in a child, neither does kissing. Is it the orgasm that makes the difference? Why should the orgasm make the difference? It's just another form of pleasure, like eating a cheesburger (albeit a better form ;)).

The only one that makes any sense is the ban on pre-marital sex. Having your first time with the person you will be commited to for the rest of your life allows you to mold yourself sexually to them, plus it makes it a little more special. On the other hand practice with other people can make you more confident with your partner, so that has advantages too.


You say who cares what other people do with their bodies. I don't get that. So are you saying that abortions are ok than? Cuz the main reason why people say that abortions are ok is cuz it's a female's body and she can do with it what she wants. Like it or not, the child is not part of her body. It is distinct and different. She is merely carrying it. It is an individual being. That's one thing that is wrong with pre-marital sex than. It creates the atmosphere that sex is fine and if you do accidentally get her pregnant, you can just have an abortion. Sex is supposed to be love communicating. How does that communicate love? If we do have a child, the product of our love, we can just delete it if we don't want it. That's why you have to wait till marraige. How would you like it if your mom choose to have an abortion? You would never have existed. Ah, but she could have if she wanted to right? If you truely feel that people are able to do what they want with their body, than you would have to be against abortion. Sure, your mom is allowed to do what she wants with her own body, but does that mean that she's able to force you do what she wants? So, people are able to do what they want and I guess they can force you to do what they want, even if you don't want it. You don't get a say in this. The father doesn't get a say either. How is that fair? You can't just do whatever you want with your body just becuz it's yours. I have a car. It's mine. That doesn't mean that I can just go and drive it wherever I want to or drive recklessly. I can't go drive it into a building. You might say well the building is not yours so you can't drive it into a building. Guess what, that child is not yours either. Just like there are certain responsibilities that you must follow when you go out onto the road while driving a car, the same thing applies to the child.

I don't think you realize how stupid this part of your argument is. I mean no offense here, but I never brought abortion into this argument, and you actually responded as to why I wouldn't.

It isn't just her body she's affecting, there is also a tiny being in there that is half someone elses. To me it is absolutely wrong that a woman can have an abortion without the consent of the father. Absolutely wrong.

However, there is a side issue--reality. The reality is that if a woman wants an abortion, she will have it. Period. You can say it's wrong till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, she'll use a coat hanger if she has to. So my thinking is, make it legal and make sure she does it safely. It's terrible, it's horrible, but it's better than her getting killed because of a dangerous abortion.

Now, let me ask a favor of you. Do not EVER put words in my mouth like that again. You said that I was on a certain side of that issue and I had not brought it up at ALL. What you did was insulting and rude, and I honestly expect an apology. I think I have been very polite about this, given the circumstances.

--Edit--
Glad you agree with that one Wacky :), you may not agree with this one ;), also, thanks for the defense, you hit the nail on the head.

Maximus--why would we want to stop?? This is fun :D

Dath Maximus
06-29-2002, 08:26 AM
i say we all forget this over a nice monkey knife fight!

get him furious george!!!

MotionMan
06-29-2002, 08:28 AM
Quote by Vestril
What if someone who was totally neutral came into the world. Which religion would he pick? Why?

Well ok ill get into this a little more.
I was raised Catholic. Durring my time growing up I did ALOT of reading. I still do. Now I dont consider myself Catholic anymore. I am not Athiest. I am very spiritual. I dont belong to any religion though. I am a seeker of knowledge. Im very open minded. I study alot of the worlds religions, and ancient world history. I come to my own conclusions. If we look at most of all the earths religions, they all are alike in a way. They all have the same storys, but of coarse the charecters names and locations names are going to be different. If it be christianity,judism,muslim,ancient egyptian storys,Hindu,greek, romans,mayan,aztek,incan, ect-they all have stories that are simmilar to one another(if you look into it thoughrouly).
Most of the religions we have now have been altered thoughout the ages. If you look back. There has been a global destruction of the REALLY old text. All we have now are storys of old that were written down in books(various Bibles being some of them).
Most of the wars that have happened in the past have to do with religion. Think about it.
The word Religion comes from a root word that means "division". Thats exactly what is has done.
Look at the crusades. It was a religious journey in the name of christianity. They would kill anyone who didnt except chrstianity as their religion. They would burn any holy text from their defeated enemies and then they would force them to become christian.
We see this alot in the earths history. Ancient scriptures have been destroyed in egypt,in the mayan,incan,aztek citys, the library of alexandria, ect. People wanting to "erase" any other religion and make theirs "one". What little text and scriptures are left are the most interesting.
The oldest scriptures on earth are the summerian tablets. They are about 2000+ years older than the time the 1st hebrew bible was written. It is amazing how simmilar the storys in thse tablets are to the ones in the bible, anong with the other religions as well. These events had to have an original source. All the other religions just adapted elements from them and made their own religions. There is proof in text and there is proof in ruins all over world.
Now religion is used as a method of control. Some invented charecters like satan to scare people into doing as they are told by the priests.
In these ancient scriptures there is alot of interesting storys that fit perfectly into the puzzle like the example I gave in my earlier post about -Eloheim meaning "Gods".

Anyhow everyone can beleive in what they want to. I choose to be open minded and learn as much knowledge that I can.
I will maybe one day write a book:) "The Earths Religion" is a good title for it , I think.
There is a saying I like it goes like this:
"religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom"
I am no "madman" , I do think im religious. I do study religion. I study them as a whole though. As one Ancient Story that have been lost in time. Only a watered down version remain , in the current religions we have now.

I have more to say but Ill stop. In no way am I saying this is how it is. This is just a "small" example of what I beleive in.
Hope I dont get crucified for stating this;)
We all have to learn to respect everyones views and not hate them for what they believe.

Vestril
06-29-2002, 08:32 AM
Good call MotionMan, I agree with you. I don't mean to come across as...condescending towards other religions, or the people who follow them. I think they all serve an important purpose. It's just that as I get into this I can be a little...overly stringent.

Dath Maximus
06-29-2002, 08:33 AM
it seems no one is noticing me.

All i ask is for some recognition!!!

Im doing all i can to ease you people with some good quality knife fights

Vestril
06-29-2002, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by Dath Maximus
it seems no one is noticing me.

All i ask is for some recognition!!!

Im doing all i can to ease you people with some good quality knife fights

Hey, I edited my post, look up a few at the --Edit-- section, you're mentioned ;)

--Edit--

It was before your post, in terms of where they fall, but I edited after I read it, and decided to put it there rather than make a new post :p

Dath Maximus
06-29-2002, 08:35 AM
hmmm boy do i feel foolish.

Now place your bets i got to monkies who are looking for blood!

MotionMan
06-29-2002, 08:36 AM
I try to not think about it 24/7 and let it consume me. I am no kind of fanatic. If you meet me in person I wont even mention my beliefs to you. Only if it comes up. I have known people who throw it in your face and thats all they talk about. How great their religion is and that if you dont act like a good religious person youll burn in hell and whatnot.

I hardly talk about this. I study it cause it interests me.
Im usualy am joking around having a good time. Thats the kind of guy I am.

Vestril
06-29-2002, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by MotionMan
I try to not think about it 24/7 and let it consume me. I am no kind of fanatic. If you meet me in person I wont even mention my beliefs to you. Only if it comes up. I have known people who throw it in your face and thats all they talk about. How great their religion is and that if you dont be better youll burn in hell.

I hardly talk about this. I study it cause it interests me.
I usualy am joking around having a good time.

Exactly, that's why I kind of expounded on here, I very rarely talk about it with people, partly because I'm a big believer in personal privacy, and partly because I know people would get offended, or wouldn't understand.

Maximus--I place my bet on Beppo, Mojo killed his kitten last sunday, and Beppo is out for vengeance.

Dath Maximus
06-29-2002, 08:41 AM
cool man cool.

Beppo it is
any one for mojo cause this is my last post here in this thread for a while

Wacky_Baccy
06-29-2002, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by Vestril
Glad you agree with that one Wacky :), you may not agree with this one ;)
Damn... You read me like a book :D

...Well, not entirely - but pretty close ;)

Maximus--why would we want to stop?? This is fun :D
Too true! :D

Exactly, that's why I kind of expounded on here, I very rarely talk about it with people, partly because I'm a big believer in personal privacy, and partly because I know people would get offended, or wouldn't understand.
And the similarities continue...



BTW, which ones (and what... I'm guessing monkeys...) are Beppo and Mojo?

123456789101112
06-29-2002, 09:13 AM
Vestril,

Fine, I apologize for assuming that you were pro-choice. You said that people could do whatever they like with their bodies and I assumed from that that you were pro-choice, since that is the main arguement for pro-choicers. I am sorry for assuming. I demand an apology too. How dare you call my beliefs as stupid. I'm sorry if I can't express them as well as you can express your views. I am trying to proclaim the official Catholic stance on these issues. I'm sorry if I'm having a hard time expressing them. You will keep arguing this until you "win", which is wrong. I do know what I'm talking about. I don't consider myself omnipotent or something like that, but I do know a little bit about this. You act like you are right and that's final. Well, it's not. You act like your on a higher platform becuz someone else agrees with you. I apologized for making an incorrect assumption about you.(though in your explaination here, it kinda seems like I made a correct assumption) Nevertheless, you demanded an apology, so I gave you one. Now, I demand you to apologize for calling my beliefs stupid. I'm only trying to explain to you the official Catholic teachings. You are the one being ignorant and close-minded. "no offense, but your aguement here is stupid" Sorry man.

123456789101112
06-29-2002, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Vestril
[B]

It doesn't HAVE to affect it, but it can.

Exactly. You proved my point. It affects it but it doesn't have to.




Bull. Homosexuality, just like heterosexuality, can be about love or lust. Do not generalize like that, it suggests that you are ignorant. Also, some women are infertile, if they get married, should they be unable to have sex? Homosexual couples are able to adopt, from the children that some heterosexual couples were too cowardly or callous to raise (that is generalizing, I know--some people are forced into that situation, fair enough).

I have a question for you. Why is that some people are homosexuals one day and than heterosexuals the next? They choose to be like that. I'm not bashing homosexuals. Homosexuality is fine, as long as you don't act upon it. I don't have a problem with homosexuals. Your not supposed to act upon that though that's all. Adoption for homosexuals is okay I would speculate. Though, this is important, you must do what right for the child. raising a child in a family where he has two dad's or two mom's is not in the best interest for the child. You have to do what's best for the child. Can you honestly say that a child growing up like that is in the child's best interest?


When I eat a cheesburger, it isn't love communicating. Does that mean that I can't eat cheesburgers? Also, Masturbation doesn't devalue the act of sex, it potentially enhances it, especially for women. It's generally more difficult for a woman to have an orgasm than a man, and one friend of mine put it bluntly: 'it's because we don't practice as much.' Intimate knowledge of yourself allows you to better understand what pleases you, which you can communicate to your partner, thus allowing for better sex.

Yeah, like if you marry a virgin. You could just say yeah I have a huge penis. How would she know if it is or not? She would have no way of knowing. Pre-marital sex and masturbation devalues sexual intercourse. Ever notice that the more times you do something, the less fun it is? You think to yourself, "boy that would be great if all day I could just do this one thing that I really enjoy over and over." It would get boring. Like, I like pizza. If I eat that everyday for the rest of my life, wouldn't you think that I would begin to start hating pizza? It's the same thing with masturbation and pre-marital sex. It doesn't enhance it. You see how that would devalue it?


Why does sex have to result in a child? It's just something that two people do...holding hands doesn't result in a child, neither does kissing. Is it the orgasm that makes the difference? Why should the orgasm make the difference? It's just another form of pleasure, like eating a cheesburger (albeit a better form ;)).

Sex doesn't have to result in a child. You have to be willing to have a child if that shoudl occur. Exactly, oragasm are a better form of pleasure. So, like I said earlier, would you, if you were given the option, eat cheeseburgers all day everyday for the rest of your life?


The only one that makes any sense is the ban on pre-marital sex. Having your first time with the person you will be commited to for the rest of your life allows you to mold yourself sexually to them, plus it makes it a little more special. On the other hand practice with other people can make you more confident with your partner, so that has advantages too.

cool....




I don't think you realize how stupid this part of your argument is. I mean no offense here, but I never brought abortion into this argument, and you actually responded as to why I wouldn't.

right.. like I said earlier, you can't do whatever you want with your body. You just can't. You can't go and eat and eat and eat all you want. It's called gluttony. It's a sin. You have to take care of your body. You can't just do what you want with it.


It isn't just her body she's affecting, there is also a tiny being in there that is half someone elses. To me it is absolutely wrong that a woman can have an abortion without the consent of the father. Absolutely wrong.

cool...

However, there is a side issue--reality. The reality is that if a woman wants an abortion, she will have it. Period. You can say it's wrong till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, she'll use a coat hanger if she has to. So my thinking is, make it legal and make sure she does it safely. It's terrible, it's horrible, but it's better than her getting killed because of a dangerous abortion.

NO, here's a period for ya, coming up. <---- Thah is a period. You can't do that. You can't just go and kill someone cuz you don't want them. I guess I could go over to your house and kill you cuz I don't like you, using your logic. It's a human. How come a woman can have an abortion, yet, if she gets killed in a car accident, the guy who hit them gets charged with a double murder? WTF? That is bull. They acknowledge that it is a human than, but not when she wants to kill it. What do you think? Back-alley abortions are not like that.

Lime-Light
06-29-2002, 10:13 AM
Hey! im back.

I do think a woman, should she have sex, be prepared to deal with all possible outcomes, along with the man. However, I have a friend who is actually have a pregnancy scare right now, and shes petrified. She would have to drop out, give up her budding career in journalism, and raise a child she cat support and whom her whole family would resent. Thats not in the best interests of the child. I dont think she should (if she pregnant) get an abortion, but if thats what she feels she should do, I believe she has that right, becuase I know the guy invlved doesnt want anything to do with it.

As I stated on the first page, I respect most of the christian morals. Some are outdated, but they make sense. I dont like homosexuality, simply becuase it seems like a rather unatural and disgusting thing to me, but I its thier choice, and I can put that aside easily enough, and respect them as a human being, instead of being offended by thier very being. Poeple need freedom, and I think western religions (many Aisian religions allow for multiple beliefs systems) restrict freedom, and restrict open mineded-ness (I state that as a generalization, and really most poeple I talk to are christian, and open to other ideas, but fundamental christianity is not open minded), so I have a problem with that.

But I'm going to look at religion in another way. Not as a belief system, or a club, but as an organism. What is an organisms goal? One, to survive, two, to expand and grow in numbers. If you look at religion in this way, you see that many of its rules and practices are there simply to ensure its further existence. You're going to eternal fiery torture if you dont believe in christianity. You go live in a wonderful place of peace and love with the supreme being if you believe. Sign me up! Take a look at buddhism for instance. Life is hell, you need nothing but to meditate and achieve xen so you can leave, instead of being reincarnated back to this hell. I dont understand what the positive result of sitting around trying to escape life is, but you certianly practice your religion if you want to be one with the universe, and so the religion survives.

Religions began as a primitive way to explian the occurences around man kind. Now they have evovled into a power struggle of who can obtian the most believers and finaly "enlighten" everyone over to thier side, with the exception of the Bin Laden group, who simply tries to erradicate the other side.

What troubles me about this great war between beliefs, is what progress can be made? With the Christians bidding thier time untill they can be with god, the buddhists siting on thier asses meditating and th fundamentalists killing folks, were does man kind as a whole go? Nowhere.

123456789101112
06-29-2002, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Hey! im back.

I do think a woman, should she have sex, be prepared to deal with all possible outcomes, along with the man. However, I have a friend who is actually have a pregnancy scare right now, and shes petrified. She would have to drop out, give up her budding career in journalism, and raise a child she cat support and whom her whole family would resent. Thats not in the best interests of the child. I dont think she should (if she pregnant) get an abortion, but if thats what she feels she should do, I believe she has that right, becuase I know the guy invlved doesnt want anything to do with it.

She should have know what the possible outcome could have been. Like she didn't know that she could have had a child. THAT is the exact reason why you should wait until you're married. Doesn't that make sense? She doesn't have to abort the child. She will have to go through the pregnancy and just give the child up for adoption afterwards. There are plenty of people that want to adopt. That would be in the child's best interest. If she can't provide a good environment for the child, someone else can.


But I'm going to look at religion in another way. Not as a belief system, or a club, but as an organism. What is an organisms goal? One, to survive, two, to expand and grow in numbers. If you look at religion in this way, you see that many of its rules and practices are there simply to ensure its further existence. You're going to eternal fiery torture if you dont believe in christianity. You go live in a wonderful place of peace and love with the supreme being if you believe. Sign me up! Take a look at buddhism for instance. Life is hell, you need nothing but to meditate and achieve xen so you can leave, instead of being reincarnated back to this hell. I dont understand what the positive result of sitting around trying to escape life is, but you certianly practice your religion if you want to be one with the universe, and so the religion survives.

I am really sorry that you look at it that way. You could say that about anything than and make it seem bad. So organisms like to further their existance eh? Well, why would Jesus die for a lie than? Wouldn't he like to live a little bit longer? Why would his followers die than too? Sure, you want others to belong and yes you do want the religion to survive. Why wouldn't you? That applies to everything. Just like in school for me, they present the material to me, but I don't have to accept it. You make it seem so bad by saying that you will rot in hell if you don't follow Christianity.


Religions began as a primitive way to explian the occurences around man kind. Now they have evovled into a power struggle of who can obtian the most believers and finaly "enlighten" everyone over to thier side, with the exception of the Bin Laden group, who simply tries to erradicate the other side.

Metaphysicalists pondered those questions. I don't believe they actually established an organization. I doubt that's true.


What troubles me about this great war between beliefs, is what progress can be made? With the Christians bidding thier time untill they can be with god, the buddhists siting on thier asses meditating and th fundamentalists killing folks, were does man kind as a whole go? Nowhere.

Well, where do you go sitting on your ass in front of the tv? I guess that way, you at least get some excitment watching your favorite team make it all the way. No progress there. At least they are doing something and they are actually acting on behalf of their beliefs. Really, I gotta see that as being better than sitting home and seeing who's on Letterman...

Vestril
06-29-2002, 02:06 PM
NO, here's a period for ya, coming up. <---- Thah is a period. You can't do that. You can't just go and kill someone cuz you don't want them. I guess I could go over to your house and kill you cuz I don't like you, using your logic. It's a human. How come a woman can have an abortion, yet, if she gets killed in a car accident, the guy who hit them gets charged with a double murder? WTF? That is bull. They acknowledge that it is a human than, but not when she wants to kill it. What do you think? Back-alley abortions are not like that.

Once again, allow me to introduce you to my friend reality.

Reality dictates that if a woman wants an abortion, she'll have one. If she says 'it was a miscarraige' who is going to call her a liar? Theoretically she just lost her baby, so you're not going to be an ass and push about it. All you're going to do is nod and say 'I'm sorry for your loss.'

Once again, it sucks, but it is the way things are, and the only thing you can do is accept it. Let me give you another example. Many christians are against contraceptive tools, like condoms, or the pill. Given your beliefs, that is understanable, but whether or not you put out the condoms, the kids will have sex. With the condoms, some of them will have unprotected sex, without the condoms, most of them will have unprotected sex. Do you see why this is bad? More STDs, probably more back alley abortions.

Now, I demand you to apologize for calling my beliefs stupid. I'm only trying to explain to you the official Catholic teachings. You are the one being ignorant and close-minded. "no offense, but your aguement here is stupid" Sorry man.

You're asking me to apologize for something that didn't happen. I never once called your beliefs stupid. I called your argument stupid. Why? Because you INSULTED ME FOR NO REASON.

k? :)

I have a question for you. Why is that some people are homosexuals one day and than heterosexuals the next? They choose to be like that. I'm not bashing homosexuals. Homosexuality is fine, as long as you don't act upon it. I don't have a problem with homosexuals.

Ermmm...I don't know anyone who switches from homosexality to heterosexuality like that...Some people known as Bisexuals like both sexes, but that is a horse of a different color. Some homosexuals feel the need to lie and say that they are heterosexuals, and that is mainly because of people who tell them that they are dirty and disgusting, like Lime-Light, or people who say that they are not allowed to make love like other human beings. You say it's wrong, fine, good for you. I say it's fine. I say it's not unnatural, since it sometimes occurs in nature (yes children, animals can be homosexual, I had a golden retriever that used to try to hump the boy dogs ;)).

Though, this is important, you must do what right for the child. raising a child in a family where he has two dad's or two mom's is not in the best interest for the child. You have to do what's best for the child. Can you honestly say that a child growing up like that is in the child's best interest?

How can you say it's not in the best interest of the child? Do you have any hard data that says that children raised by same sex marraiges are less likely to succeed in life? Again, single parenting and same sex parenting both occur in nature, so it isn't unnatural (and I'm arguing for single parent families, which by your logic would also be poor).

Yeah, like if you marry a virgin. You could just say yeah I have a huge penis. How would she know if it is or not? She would have no way of knowing.

You want to lie to your future wife??? :mad:


Ever notice that the more times you do something, the less fun it is? You think to yourself, "boy that would be great if all day I could just do this one thing that I really enjoy over and over." It would get boring. Like, I like pizza. If I eat that everyday for the rest of my life, wouldn't you think that I would begin to start hating pizza? It's the same thing with masturbation and pre-marital sex. It doesn't enhance it. You see how that would devalue it?


If I go jogging every day of my life, I will not grow to hate it, I'll just continue to get better at it, and I will still derive pleasure from it, eventually a nostalgic pleasure. Since sex is a physical activity, and since people don't seem to get tired of sex, my argument would seem more likely ;)

right.. like I said earlier, you can't do whatever you want with your body. You just can't. You can't go and eat and eat and eat all you want. It's called gluttony. It's a sin. You have to take care of your body. You can't just do what you want with it.

That's what the Bible says, but to my thinking, if someone wants to be a lard-ass, and die of a heart attack at 42, he can do whatever he wants. He's paying for it by shortening his life, and the potential enjoyment of his life, so why should he go to hell for it?

Look my mind can be changed, but it's unlikely that it will be you who changes it, because of how you present your arguments. I mean no offense to you, your beliefs are valid, but for me to say that they are correct? That would be hypocritical of me.

BlackDove
06-29-2002, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by aNaL tHeRapisT
http://members.optushome.com.au/phillj11/ForumPics/STFU3.jpg

:eyeraise::eyeraise::eyeraise:

Tyrion
06-29-2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by aNaL tHeRapisT


http://members.optushome.com.au/phillj11/ForumPics/STFU3.jpg


God will smite you because of that,so sleep with 1 eye open...:D

Lime-Light
06-30-2002, 02:17 AM
Ok, first of all, I'm not trying to pis anyone off here. I just noticed that many pratices off religion are for the purpose of staying alive. I never denounced it. Its a fact that in christianity if you dont believe you go to hell, I believe it was whitedragon who told me this, so dont go downplaying the the facts becuase I noticed they're ugly.

And Vestril, I belive you misunderstood. I dont go around calling homosexuals freaks and spitting on them or something, i just consider the act of homosexuality gross, but just becuase a person is gay, doesnt mean I think they are worthy of riddicule or mistreatment. I dont define a person on thier views or acts, I try to classify no one and see them as simply another person.

And on another note, I dont sit around all day lpaying computer games and watching sports. I think watching sports is the most riddiculous waste of time ever concieved. I watch very litle tv, instead I write, draw, talk and discuss like this, and go to school. Stop making these assupmtions as you did with Vestril and presume you know how I spend my time, 1234....

Divine Spirit
06-30-2002, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by Vestril


You're really bad at thought experiments...you know that??? :p (just kidding you :))

Ok ok, allow me to qualify this a little. This hypothetical being just came into existence, a fully cognizent being, and has only a sense of right and wrong. If you say 'is murder wrong?' he'll be able to answer you, but if you ask him 'what is wrong and what is right?' he won't know, because it's not a knowledge, it's a feeling.

His guidelines as to what specifically is right or wrong isn't pertinent, just to head off all of you naysayers (though thankfully most of the idiots proclaimed that they were leaving this thread...)

yeah i see what you mean now, ur right. a lot of people in this thread are saying things like 'doing this is wrong' and 'doing this is acceptable' when those are just opinions.

Vestril
06-30-2002, 02:33 AM
And Vestril, I belive you misunderstood. I dont go around calling homosexuals freaks and spitting on them or something, i just consider the act of homosexuality gross, but just becuase a person is gay, doesnt mean I think they are worthy of riddicule or mistreatment. I dont define a person on thier views or acts, I try to classify no one and see them as simply another person.


Oh and I don't mean to say that you do. After re-reading I can see why you might take that the wrong way though. Let me see if I can explain via a simple example.

If I were a homosexual, and I was reading this, I would feel a little less comfortable telling people on here that I was a homosexual, because I would already know that some people strongly disapproved of what I did. Now I don't think that you having your feelings is wrong, nor do I think that your expressing them is wrong. I'm simply saying that it is people who have views like yours that contribute to their not wanting to be open. You're not bad for having your feelings, and you're not bad for expressing them, it's just a sad fact of life that your opinions can hurt some people.

Personally I think your opinions on the matter represent a mode of thought that is taking the back seat for the time being. There have been points in history where homosexuality was accepted before, and I think we are moving into one now. I also think that that period of time will end again, as it has before, if you look at history.

Which brings me onto a thoroughly off topic point, but one I think the people here can benefit from, because so many of you are still young enough to learn easily (like your truly :D). Over the last...4000 years, people haven't changed much. Oh our trinkets, and lifespans, and religions, and languages have--but the person at the center of it hasn't changed. If I took a healthy newborn from ancient Rome and stuck him in the hands of some upper-middle class Americans, I'm pretty sure he would wind up like most of us are.

Our ideas and our thoughts are actually much the same, and the trends we follow are trends that have actually been followed before, if you have a keen eye and have studied history. History is the best way we have available to know more about how we will behave in the future, and it is the only way that we can truly evolve as a society.

When the events of history took place, they had only their wits to rely on to help them along. We have another valuable tool, we have the mistakes we made in the past, which can help us avoid making the same mistakes in the future. So future parents, world leaders, business men, lawyers, janitors, people I'll have hopefully throttled at some point :p--study history, at least have a general idea of how many others like you have gone before, and will go again.

Lime-Light
06-30-2002, 02:46 AM
Ok thanks for the clarification.

And I agree with you on how people havent changed throughout history too much. I believe scociety has changed drastically, but not people.

Vestril
06-30-2002, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Ok thanks for the clarification.

And I agree with you on how people havent changed throughout history too much. I believe scociety has changed drastically, but not people.

Society isn't actually as different as you might think. Some of the ideas have changed, but most of them have been around before ;)

123456789101112
06-30-2002, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by Vestril


Once again, allow me to introduce you to my friend reality.

Reality dictates that if a woman wants an abortion, she'll have one. If she says 'it was a miscarraige' who is going to call her a liar? Theoretically she just lost her baby, so you're not going to be an ass and push about it. All you're going to do is nod and say 'I'm sorry for your loss.'

That's true. But, it doesn't have to happen. Well, using your logic, people are bound to use drugs, why not just legalize it? People are bound to kill. You can't stop that. Why not just allow it to happen and legalize it? That's reality. It will happen sometimes, yes, but you can prevent it from happening all the time. One again, that's using your logic.


Once again, it sucks, but it is the way things are, and the only thing you can do is accept it. Let me give you another example. Many christians are against contraceptive tools, like condoms, or the pill. Given your beliefs, that is understanable, but whether or not you put out the condoms, the kids will have sex. With the condoms, some of them will have unprotected sex, without the condoms, most of them will have unprotected sex. Do you see why this is bad? More STDs, probably more back alley abortions.

So, as long as we give them that, everything will be fine. You are only promoting it. That doesn't help. Yeah, they are going to do it, but but giving them that, you are only promoting it. You should make the message clear that it's wrong. You can also prevent STD's and "back-alley" abortions by informing the kids. Which way is better, giving them teh aids that they need to do it and saying it's bad, or educating them on it?


You're asking me to apologize for something that didn't happen. I never once called your beliefs stupid. I called your argument stupid. Why? Because you INSULTED ME FOR NO REASON.

k? :)

All this shows is ignorance. I took offense to something, yet you refuse to apologize for it. Why not just say, "I"m right and you should really stop taking offense to teh things that I say."?


Ermmm...I don't know anyone who switches from homosexality to heterosexuality like that...Some people known as Bisexuals like both sexes, but that is a horse of a different color. Some homosexuals feel the need to lie and say that they are heterosexuals, and that is mainly because of people who tell them that they are dirty and disgusting, like Lime-Light, or people who say that they are not allowed to make love like other human beings. You say it's wrong, fine, good for you. I say it's fine. I say it's not unnatural, since it sometimes occurs in nature (yes children, animals can be homosexual, I had a golden retriever that used to try to hump the boy dogs ;)).

*sigh* Anne Hashe*(spelling) did. For a little bit she was a lesbian in love with Ellen and than after a while she likes men again. It is not natural. Look at the male and female reproductive organs. Don't they just kinda seem like they fit together? Kinda like pieces in a puzzle. Anal sex is unnatural, even for a male and female. When a male and female have natural sex, I assume that there would be little if any bleeding involved.(I'm not too sure here) Not with anal sex. You are going the wrong way there. Stuff goes out not in there buddy, therefore there is almost always bleeding involved.(again, not too sure. Never tried it myself.)



How can you say it's not in the best interest of the child? Do you have any hard data that says that children raised by same sex marraiges are less likely to succeed in life? Again, single parenting and same sex parenting both occur in nature, so it isn't unnatural (and I'm arguing for single parent families, which by your logic would also be poor).

I never said that they wouldn't succeed in life. Now you are the one putting words in another person's mouth.


You want to lie to your future wife??? :mad:

Haha. I guess I have a small penis. Nice one! :thumbsup: Anyhow, how would she know if it's small or not? She has nothing to compare it too. That's the point that I was making. You seemed to have missed that.


If I go jogging every day of my life, I will not grow to hate it, I'll just continue to get better at it, and I will still derive pleasure from it, eventually a nostalgic pleasure. Since sex is a physical activity, and since people don't seem to get tired of sex, my argument would seem more likely ;)

Ok, you've said everything that I said so far was ignorant and with poor logic. Now I get to say it. You are so very ignorant here. Why not try eating pizza for the rest of your life. You are telling me that you would not grow to hate it? Are you calling sex a sport? Something that you need to practice at? I don't seem to agree here. Oh, right... Houston 500.... Hrm.. I guess there is some competition involved. ok. I guess it is a sport. Good thing she practiced before so that she could get that good. You don't seem to think that devalues sex. Yet, using your logic, it's ok to have sex with several people to practice I guess. Tell me that such things do not devalue sex. Yet, you seem to be on their side but saying having sex with multiple people is good becuz you practice... I guess for the big Houston 500... I'm sorry cuz you seem to feel that if you play JO for every minute for the rest of your life that you would not grow tired of it.



That's what the Bible says, but to my thinking, if someone wants to be a lard-ass, and die of a heart attack at 42, he can do whatever he wants. He's paying for it by shortening his life, and the potential enjoyment of his life, so why should he go to hell for it?

Again, that proves your poor logic. and I can say that cuz you only said that I had poor logic about how many times? So you can do whatever you want now eh? So if I wanna get a tattoo on a visible body part that say "Vestrils mom swallows" or something like that, that would be alright? Ah, but using your logic, I can. It's my body.... Oh, ok. He's paying for it by shortening his life. I see. So why not kill yourself now? You'll make it to heaven, using your logic. Heck, that'd be great. I'm shortening my life by abusing my body and I'll get into heaven quicker than you, who does good things in life. I'll get rewarded before you do. sweeeeeeettt.


Look my mind can be changed, but it's unlikely that it will be you who changes it, because of how you present your arguments. I mean no offense to you, your beliefs are valid, but for me to say that they are correct? That would be hypocritical of me.

Read back what you just said. No offense, but you're an idiot. Your arguements are poor, and you're ignorant. Don't like my saying that? Tuff luck, cuz you told that to me like 500000 times. Yet you wonder why I take offense to that. Yet, you refuse to apologize. Fine, you can call me ignorant and say that my arguements are poor, I can say the same to you. Don't expect me to apologize.

First of all, Lime-light, I never made the presumption that you sit around watching tv all day. That was an analogy. I never assumed that that's really what you did.

Vestril,
I find it rather disturbing how you would refuse to apologize like that. I said earlier that I might be having a hard time expressing my ideas. You said that my arguement was stupid. I apologized to you even though you still seem to be making my assumption valid. Nevertheless, I apologized cuz there is reasonable doubt that I was incorrect in my assumption. Yet, you refuse to apologize. You said that my arguement was stupid. I told you eariler that I might not be doing the best job presenting my beliefs. Yet, you still are unwilling to retract your statement. I find that ignorant, and reflective of what type of a person you really are.

Vestril
06-30-2002, 04:51 AM
All this shows is ignorance. I took offense to something, yet you refuse to apologize for it. Why not just say, "I"m right and you should really stop taking offense to teh things that I say."?

Vestril,
I find it rather disturbing how you would refuse to apologize like that. I said earlier that I might be having a hard time expressing my ideas. You said that my arguement was stupid. I apologized to you even though you still seem to be making my assumption valid. Nevertheless, I apologized cuz there is reasonable doubt that I was incorrect in my assumption. Yet, you refuse to apologize. You said that my arguement was stupid. I told you eariler that I might not be doing the best job presenting my beliefs. Yet, you still are unwilling to retract your statement. I find that ignorant, and reflective of what type of a person you really are.

Since I have already responded to it, I will go ahead and quote myself, and let you see what it is that I was saying. I called a very specific portion of your argument stupid, and I called it stupid for a very specific reason. Feel free to figure out what it was, any day now.

I don't think you realize how stupid this part of your argument is. I mean no offense here, but I never brought abortion into this argument, and you actually responded as to why I wouldn't.

Is the offending quote.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, I demand you to apologize for calling my beliefs stupid. I'm only trying to explain to you the official Catholic teachings. You are the one being ignorant and close-minded. "no offense, but your aguement here is stupid" Sorry man.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You're asking me to apologize for something that didn't happen. I never once called your beliefs stupid. I called your argument stupid. Why? Because you INSULTED ME FOR NO REASON.

k?

Is your response, and my response to your response. Allow me to further explain.

I was calling your argument stupid because it had nothing to do with anything I had previously said. You suddenly brought abortion into the argument, for no apparent reason, and suggested that I was some sort of baby killing fanatic....that is stupid. It is stupid to bring up such a hot topic without provocation. I'm sorry that you don't see it that way, but that's how it is.

Now I can see why you might think that I was insulting your beliefs on the matter, and let me assure you--I wasn't. Your beliefs are as valid as anyone elses, and I apologize for the misunderstanding. Please calm down. I think I can assume that you are the person who sent me the rather rude email, since it follows much of what you have said here, and let me say this: if it was you, in the future, please at least admit who you are, that was kind of childish. If it really wasn't you, I apologize for the assumption.

Now, onto other arguments...

That's true. But, it doesn't have to happen. Well, using your logic, people are bound to use drugs, why not just legalize it? People are bound to kill. You can't stop that. Why not just allow it to happen and legalize it? That's reality. It will happen sometimes, yes, but you can prevent it from happening all the time. One again, that's using your logic.

No..it's not using my logic. My logic has been trademarked, and if I were in a sour disposition I would be calling my lawyers right now :mad:

Hey!! Calm down!! That was a joke ;), you need to take it easy here. That entire post was very angry, and it's my fault for being a little sharp with you earlier, so I apologise for that--let's not continue this trend though. Let's debate this in a calm and rational manner, like adults. I'll do my best, though I must admit that I can get a little off course now and again.

In any case, that was not using my logic, because you're describing an extreme. If there was no law against killing, we would not be a planet full of serial killers. It is a scant few people who are murderers, who are capable of killing adult human beings, killing a man is not an easy thing to do.

However the people who have abortions are not a scant few, they are actually a large chunk of women, because all it takes is fear and a coat hanger. If you want to throw a 13 year old girl in jail for giving herself an abortion, you go ahead and try, but if she was my daughter I would die before letting that happen. These are normal human beings put into the worst of circumstances, and you can't take a callous stance towards them, they can be any race, and any religion, and honestly any depth of religion. It's easy to say to me 'its a human life' it's not so easy to explain to a young girl who made a mistake that the tiny collection of cells residing in her body is worth completely ruining her life. Calling her a murderer is a crime which is, IMO, worse than the one she commited, because it is a fully objective and rational act, as opposed to mistake that compounds a mistake made out of fear.

So, as long as we give them that, everything will be fine. You are only promoting it. That doesn't help. Yeah, they are going to do it, but but giving them that, you are only promoting it. You should make the message clear that it's wrong. You can also prevent STD's and "back-alley" abortions by informing the kids. Which way is better, giving them teh aids that they need to do it and saying it's bad, or educating them on it?

Education is nothing compared to horomones. Nothing at all. You can teach a kid all you want that getting a girl knocked up, or having sex is wrong, but the truth is that when the horomones are raging and the legs are *ahem* spread, all that education won't make a difference. Hopefully though, if you've taught him enough, he'll put a condom on though, so he doesn't get some terrible disease, or so she doesn't.

It's a somewhat naive standpoint that education can prevent this, and here is why: I was raised a Catholic, I went to Catholic school, I am willing to bet that I have been more thoroughly educated in the Bible than you have, yet I still don't have a problem with pre-marital sex. I am well educated on the subject, but I don't care about that stuff. If there weren't condoms, I would still go out and have sex, except that it would be much more dangerous.

I am not the only person like me. Condoms are good.

*sigh* Anne Hashe*(spelling) did. For a little bit she was a lesbian in love with Ellen and than after a while she likes men again. It is not natural. Look at the male and female reproductive organs. Don't they just kinda seem like they fit together? Kinda like pieces in a puzzle. Anal sex is unnatural, even for a male and female. When a male and female have natural sex, I assume that there would be little if any bleeding involved.(I'm not too sure here) Not with anal sex. You are going the wrong way there. Stuff goes out not in there buddy, therefore there is almost always bleeding involved.(again, not too sure. Never tried it myself.)

Anne Heche is a bisexual. She was straight, but open, and one day she met a woman that she fell in love with, it's very romantic. When that didn't work out, she didn't suddenly hate men, and want only women, it was just one woman.

When women have sex for the first time, they might bleed, if their hymen (I think that's the spelling) hasn't already been broken in some other way (which is very possible, it's a delicate membrane).

I have no idea as to the bleeding from anal sex, I wouldn't have thought there would be any, but I haven't tried it either. I don't find your logic too convincing though...I mean it's a hole, and fingers sometimes go in for medical reasons (checking up on the 'ol prostate) or even objects or liquids (enema's). So it isn't like if something goes...*ahem* up in there, it's the end of the world.

I never said that they wouldn't succeed in life. Now you are the one putting words in another person's mouth.

Ermm...ok...well you did say this:

Though, this is important, you must do what right for the child. raising a child in a family where he has two dad's or two mom's is not in the best interest for the child. You have to do what's best for the child. Can you honestly say that a child growing up like that is in the child's best interest?

Best interest, right? Well, it seems to me that if something isn't in the best interest of a child, he won't succed in life. What did you mean by that statement: 'is it in the childs best interest', if you didn't mean that being raised in a same-sex marraige would hurt their chances in life?

If they succed in life, then it seems to me that the same-sex marraige didn't hurt them at all...and I mean succed in the sense that they become productive, happy human beings.

Haha. I guess I have a small penis. Nice one! Anyhow, how would she know if it's small or not? She has nothing to compare it too. That's the point that I was making. You seemed to have missed that.

Ummmm...no, you misunderstood. You said that you could 'tell her it was huge' and she wouldn't know if it was small. If you tell her it's huge, and it isn't, that is what is known as a 'lie.' I don't know if you have a small penis--I don't care if you have a small penis. The point is that that is a really...superficial reason. If your wife loves you, then she won't care whether you have a large or small penis; if you're worried about that, then marrying a virgin isn't going to solve the larger issue of your feelings of inadequacy. I'm not saying that you do have feelings of inadequacy, there is an 'if' in there :)

Ok, you've said everything that I said so far was ignorant and with poor logic.

Did I now. Please quote that for me, I can't seem to find the place where I said that.

Why not try eating pizza for the rest of your life. You are telling me that you would not grow to hate it? Are you calling sex a sport? Something that you need to practice at? I don't seem to agree here. Oh, right... Houston 500.... Hrm.. I guess there is some competition involved. ok. I guess it is a sport. Good thing she practiced before so that she could get that good. You don't seem to think that devalues sex. Yet, using your logic, it's ok to have sex with several people to practice I guess. Tell me that such things do not devalue sex. Yet, you seem to be on their side but saying having sex with multiple people is good becuz you practice... I guess for the big Houston 500... I'm sorry cuz you seem to feel that if you play JO for every minute for the rest of your life that you would not grow tired of it.

Why would I play JO every minute for the rest of my life? What does that have to do with masturbating, or having pre-marital sex?

Just because I have sex with people that I'm not married to, doesn't mean that I'm constantly having sex...it's not like they line up and come in one after another. It's also not like I spend every minute of every day with my hands down my pants.

You have taken my argument to an extreme, so let me do the same to yours.

-It would seem to me that since sex is such a wonderful, sacred act, you should only ever do it once. That would preserve the sacredness of the act and make it all the more special. That's what you really want, right?-

See how silly that sounds? See how it has nothing to do with your argument? In the same way, suggesting that my argument would lead to my having sex every second of every day is silly, and has nothing to do with my argument.

Now I put the - marks before and after it, to show that I don't really believe that, I don't really think you believe that, it's just an example of why taking things to their logical limit isn't very sensible :)

Read back what you just said. No offense, but you're an idiot. Your arguements are poor, and you're ignorant. Don't like my saying that? Tuff luck, cuz you told that to me like 500000 times. Yet you wonder why I take offense to that. Yet, you refuse to apologize. Fine, you can call me ignorant and say that my arguements are poor, I can say the same to you. Don't expect me to apologize.

That's blatant, and baseless flaming, and it really has no place here. Allow me to give you a definition, to help you understand what I mean sometimes:

ignorant: Unaware or uninformed

It isn't an insult, it's a state of being. I am ignorant about certain subjects, I am very aware of that. You are ignorant of certain subjects, and sometimes it comes across on here. My ignorance can come across as well.

Let me give you one more definition, so that perhaps you'll understand aomething else:

idiot: A foolish or stupid person

I am neither foolish, nor stupid. Say what you will about me, but the term idiot does not apply to me. I know that much ;)

Lime-Light
06-30-2002, 06:10 AM
Yeah...I hold the firm belief that this argment is over. It has mutated into a viscious circle of Vestril offending 123, 123 snapping back, and Vestril making a rebuttal. Plus me and these useless observations.

We have all expressed our opinions on religions, abortions, premaritatal sex, and each other fully. Unless someone disagrees, I think we need to put this beast to rest.

Vestril
06-30-2002, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Yeah...I hold the firm belief that this argment is over. It has mutated into a viscious circle of Vestril offending 123, 123 snapping back, and Vestril making a rebuttal. Plus me and these useless observations.

We have all expressed our opinions on religions, abortions, premaritatal sex, and each other fully. Unless someone disagrees, I think we need to put this beast to rest.

That's the fun of these things :D. I'm just holding out for someone new to come in and say something interesting...

Lime-Light
06-30-2002, 06:20 AM
something interesting.\

EDIT: once you get 1000 and get a custom rank, can you change it?

Vestril
06-30-2002, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
something interesting.\

EDIT: once you get 1000 and get a custom rank, can you change it?

Yup, you can change it as you want to. I like to use a system, mainly because...hrmmm...I'm a geek. :p

123456789101112
06-30-2002, 06:36 AM
Vestril,
I read your reply up to a certain point about the e-mail. I sent you no e-mail. Look in this thread: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65585 . If it was sent by anyone other than user1337@hotmail.com, than it wasn't me. Sorry if this debate has gone to far in which it would lead to that point. Anyhow, I'll read the rest of the replies and the rest of your reply. I just wanted to get that straight.

Qui-GONE Jinn
06-30-2002, 06:37 AM
Why end the discussion! I though it was a great read - many good points! Vestril, you da man..

Vestril
06-30-2002, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by 123456789101112
Vestril,
I read your reply up to a certain point about the e-mail. I sent you no e-mail. Look in this thread: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65585 . If it was sent by anyone other than user1337@hotmail.com, than it wasn't me. Sorry if this debate has gone to far in which it would lead to that point. Anyhow, I'll read the rest of the replies and the rest of your reply. I just wanted to get that straight.

Ok, sorry for the assumption. I'm pretty sure whoever it was was angry about this thread though, since it's really the only place where I've done anything I would consider particularly note-worthy...

Lime-Light
06-30-2002, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by Qui-GONE Jinn
Why end the discussion! I though it was a great read - many good points! Vestril, you da man..

add something then!

-[MotU]-Lyger|=-
06-30-2002, 07:27 AM
Ya know, i really dont care if you believe in god or not. i dont even know why you put this thread. its kinda funny to hate someone cause of what the believe in.

123456789101112
06-30-2002, 02:16 PM
Look, I don't hate any one cuz of their beliefs. My friend is an atheist. I really don't care what you belief, though I would hope that for your sake you believe in God. Anyhow, this is merely a debate. I'm sorry if I made my last posts seem angered. They weren't. It's nice to see that, when being questioned about your beliefs, that you are able to defend them. Anyhow, let's continue.

You say this: "It's easy to say to me 'its a human life' it's not so easy to explain to a young girl who made a mistake that the tiny collection of cells residing in her body is worth completely ruining her life."

Though her life may be better after she has an abortion, what about the child's. It may be ruined her life, but the child's will be completely ruined. The child has no say. Honestly, abortions will happen no matter what sometimes, even though they are wrong. However, if you can help prevent one, that is great. She made a mistake, should she not pay the consequences? Maybe it is a little harsh, but still. You gotta think that she choose to do something, knowing what could happen, and now wants to back out of it. Yes, people make mistakes. She got caught up in the moment. Looking at it a different way though, that's why some murders take place. You see Minority Report? This won't give anything away. The first guy was going to kill her wife cuz she was having an affair. It would have been a crime of passion. How would you like to see your wife in bed with another guy. I would be upset too. He got caught up in the moment too. Say he killed them. Should he be accountable for what he did?

You say this: " I was raised a Catholic, I went to Catholic school, I am willing to bet that I have been more thoroughly educated in the Bible than you have, yet I still don't have a problem with pre-marital sex."

Whoa. whoa. Not to brag, but I am on summer break right now. When I go back to school, I will be a senior in High School. I go to one of the finest schools in the state. No joking. They can take their Theology classes pretty seriously there. I definatly learned a lot. I feel that I am thoroughly educated too. They present the material to me, and I choose to accept it. I sincerely don't see how you could have gone to a Catholic school and have not been taught these things that I am presenting to you. I will have a hard time swallowing that one.

You say: "Education is nothing compared to horomones."

I really can say that your statement can be true some of the times. Though, education does mean something when it comes to those situations. You can't think that it has no affect, do you? You can't rule that out entirely. I would think that it does have some affect. Plus, you seem to think that condoms are the cure-all. They are not. Sure, they may be the most affective against transmitting STD's and getting pregnant, but that's not always true. People who were condoms have goten the other person pregnant. Same with STD's. You're not always 100% sure. You have to be open and willing to have children. You're not even supposed to use condoms, yet if you are going to do it, use it. You shouldn't do it though. What you are saying is that yes do it and wear a condom. I am saying no don't do it, but if you do anyways and ignore my advice, at least use a condom.

You say: "When women have sex for the first time, they might bleed, if their hymen (I think that's the spelling) hasn't already been broken in some other way (which is very possible, it's a delicate membrane).

I have no idea as to the bleeding from anal sex, I wouldn't have thought there would be any, but I haven't tried it either. I don't find your logic too convincing though...I mean it's a hole, and fingers sometimes go in for medical reasons (checking up on the 'ol prostate) or even objects or liquids (enema's). So it isn't like if something goes...*ahem* up in there, it's the end of the world."

That's true about the hymen, but that can also occur from tampon usage so that doesn't count. Yes, you do bleed from anal sex, trust me.(though, I have no experience there.) That's why it is the number 1 method of transfering AIDS. Cuz you got two things: the seamen and the blood. Both carry AIDS. That's why it is so easy to get AIDS through anal sex. I'm surprised they didn't teach you that...


you say: "If they succed in life, then it seems to me that the same-sex marraige didn't hurt them at all...and I mean succed in the sense that they become productive, happy human beings.
"

They may succeed in life. It will not be in teh child's best interest though. It's normal to have a mom and a dad right? He may grow up to think that it's ok to be in a relationship with another man. It's wrong. A guy and a guy can not produce a child. It's not right or fair to give the child the impression that that's ok. First of all, homosexuals are fine. They are just not able to act upon their homosexuality. They can't have children together. Sex is love communicating and has openess to having a child. You can't have a child with two men. If you can't have a child, than how are you expressing your love? A child is the product of two people's love. It is unfortunate if a couple can not have a child.

You say: "Ummmm...no, you misunderstood."

Ummmmm.... no, you misunderstood. I was merely saying that she would have nothing to compare it too. It was supposed to go no further than that. I was just making a simple statement. She wouldn't know if it's big or not cuz she has nothing to compare it to. Simple as that. That statement goes no further than that.

You say: "Why would I play JO every minute for the rest of my life? What does that have to do with masturbating, or having pre-marital sex?"

Fine, masturbate or have sex every minute of your life and tell me that you would not grow tired of that. The simple fact is that you would. It's a analogy. I know that you wouldn't really do that but imagine if you were to do that. I know for a fact that it would get boring after a while. It may be sweet for like the first little while, but you will eventually tire of it.

You say: "It would seem to me that since sex is such a wonderful, sacred act, you should only ever do it once. That would preserve the sacredness of the act and make it all the more special. That's what you really want, right?"

Once you get married, have all the sex you want. You just have to be open to having children. If you have sex before you are married, there is no love and no commintment.

You say that masturbation is fine. Why not masturbate in front of other people? If it's ok and since a lot of other people do it, why not? I wouldn't do somwthing that I know is wrong in front of my parents. What, why wouldn't you do it in front of your parents? Is it just a personal thing between you and your hand? Seriously. Everything that I think is fine and dandy I would do in front of my parents. Seems logical right? I can't think of one thing that I wouldn't do in front of my parents that isn't bad.

One last thing. You seem to think that so many things here are ok. Abortions are ok some of the time, masturbation is alright, pre-marital sex is fine, acting upon your homosexuality is fine too. What do you think is bad?

Vestril
06-30-2002, 03:06 PM
Though her life may be better after she has an abortion, what about the child's. It may be ruined her life, but the child's will be completely ruined. The child has no say. Honestly, abortions will happen no matter what sometimes, even though they are wrong. However, if you can help prevent one, that is great. She made a mistake, should she not pay the consequences? Maybe it is a little harsh, but still. You gotta think that she choose to do something, knowing what could happen, and now wants to back out of it. Yes, people make mistakes. She got caught up in the moment. Looking at it a different way though, that's why some murders take place. You see Minority Report? This won't give anything away. The first guy was going to kill her wife cuz she was having an affair. It would have been a crime of passion. How would you like to see your wife in bed with another guy. I would be upset too. He got caught up in the moment too. Say he killed them. Should he be accountable for what he did?


I didn't say it wasn't wrong. I just said that it would be callous to call her a murderer, and it would be callous to treat her like a murderer, she was a frightened child, and most of us would have done the same exact thing. That is the difference between general murder and abortion. If I saw a man having sex with my wife, I might think about killing him, but I probably wouldn't. However, if I was a 15 year old girl who was pregnant because of a stupid mistake, I might have an abortion, that would be terrifying. I would be a hypocrite if I cast that stone, if you take my meaning.

Whoa. whoa. Not to brag, but I am on summer break right now. When I go back to school, I will be a senior in High School. I go to one of the finest schools in the state. No joking. They can take their Theology classes pretty seriously there. I definatly learned a lot. I feel that I am thoroughly educated too. They present the material to me, and I choose to accept it. I sincerely don't see how you could have gone to a Catholic school and have not been taught these things that I am presenting to you. I will have a hard time swallowing that one.


I have heard all of the stuff you're presenting to me. You have not yet put forth an idea I have never heard before. I could actually argue against myself pretty well :D

I am saying no don't do it, but if you do anyways and ignore my advice, at least use a condom.

Oh, cool :) that's all I was hoping for. Many christians are against any sort of contraceptives being out there at all, banning them and whatnot (or at least many that I've talked to) and that would just be silly, I mean kids would still be having sex. Anyway, glad we're on the same page.

Just to clairfy, my personal belief on the subject came from hard experience, I learned that feels better to kiss someone you love than have sex with someone you don't care about. I don't worry about the marraige issue, but I don't see a point in being with someone you don't have strong feelings with.

That's true about the hymen, but that can also occur from tampon usage so that doesn't count. Yes, you do bleed from anal sex, trust me.(though, I have no experience there.) That's why it is the number 1 method of transfering AIDS. Cuz you got two things: the seamen and the blood. Both carry AIDS. That's why it is so easy to get AIDS through anal sex. I'm surprised they didn't teach you that...

They probably did back in health class...5 years ago lol, but I don't think I was paying too much attention because I didn't really plan on having anal sex lol. Anyway, blood != unnatural...IMO, anyway.

They may succeed in life. It will not be in teh child's best interest though. It's normal to have a mom and a dad right? He may grow up to think that it's ok to be in a relationship with another man. It's wrong. A guy and a guy can not produce a child. It's not right or fair to give the child the impression that that's ok. First of all, homosexuals are fine. They are just not able to act upon their homosexuality. They can't have children together. Sex is love communicating and has openess to having a child. You can't have a child with two men. If you can't have a child, than how are you expressing your love? A child is the product of two people's love. It is unfortunate if a couple can not have a child.

Why is it unfortunate? The world is overpopulated. There are a LOT of children in orphanages. Couples who take on a child (be they same sex or different sexes) are admirable.

Welllllll, the idea that homosexuality is wrong is a theory, not a fact. It is your belief, not everyones. Also, being raised in a homosexual family does not turn a person into a homosexual. It is a state of being.

People who are homosexuals do not have a choice. This is really obvious, right? I mean, people have been beaten up, murdered, ostracized, all because they're homosexuals. If they could choose to be attracted to women, I'm sure many of them would. I have a friend who is bisexual who fights it extremely hard, she tells herself that she's a horrible person, that she should only like boys, but she still likes girls.

Also, you seem to have this idea that the only way a couple can express their love is by having a child...and that makes me wonder. For example, I know that I should never have a child, I would be a terrible father, I would raise a son poorly. My son would be a confused and terrible person, and I should not throw that at the world. Does that mean that I can never marry? There are many people like me, people who shouldn't have children, and I don't think that we should be left out of the loving proccess.

What about people who are impotent? If they can't have children does that mean that they won't ever be able to experience true love?

If that is the case then god, as you see it, is a very cruel person :(

Ummmmm.... no, you misunderstood. I was merely saying that she would have nothing to compare it too. It was supposed to go no further than that. I was just making a simple statement. She wouldn't know if it's big or not cuz she has nothing to compare it to. Simple as that. That statement goes no further than that.


I was referring to the fact that you seemed to think I was insulting you about your penis size...which I wasn't :)

You say: "Why would I play JO every minute for the rest of my life? What does that have to do with masturbating, or having pre-marital sex?"

Fine, masturbate or have sex every minute of your life and tell me that you would not grow tired of that. The simple fact is that you would. It's a analogy. I know that you wouldn't really do that but imagine if you were to do that. I know for a fact that it would get boring after a while. It may be sweet for like the first little while, but you will eventually tire of it.

I already answered this concern, the argument you are using here is wrong, and I already explained why, I'll quote myself here:

You have taken my argument to an extreme, so let me do the same to yours.

-It would seem to me that since sex is such a wonderful, sacred act, you should only ever do it once. That would preserve the sacredness of the act and make it all the more special. That's what you really want, right?-

See how silly that sounds? See how it has nothing to do with your argument? In the same way, suggesting that my argument would lead to my having sex every second of every day is silly, and has nothing to do with my argument.

Now I put the - marks before and after it, to show that I don't really believe that, I don't really think you believe that, it's just an example of why taking things to their logical limit isn't very sensible

Ok? Do you see why saying 'masturbating every second of your life would suck' is a poor argument? If you say it's a good argument, then I will start using the 'only have sex once in your life argument' which I already think is stupid...:p


Once you get married, have all the sex you want. You just have to be open to having children. If you have sex before you are married, there is no love and no commintment.


It wasn't an actual argument. I went to great pains to show that it wasn't an actual argument. Why are you responding to it? The point was that that is what you did to me. I said that masturbating was OK, so you said 'well you wouldn't like it if you masturbated every second of your life,' which had nothing to do with my argument. So to show you how silly that was, I did it to your argument:----You say that you should only have sex after marraige because it makes it more special, well it would make it ultra-special to only do it once, but you wouldn't like that, therefore you're wrong that only having sex after marraige is wrong.--- The stuff in --- and in bold is the fake argument, the one that shows you why taking things to the logical limit is wrong. Do you understand?

You say that masturbation is fine. Why not masturbate in front of other people? If it's ok and since a lot of other people do it, why not? I wouldn't do somwthing that I know is wrong in front of my parents. What, why wouldn't you do it in front of your parents? Is it just a personal thing between you and your hand? Seriously. Everything that I think is fine and dandy I would do in front of my parents. Seems logical right? I can't think of one thing that I wouldn't do in front of my parents that isn't bad.


Do you shower in front of your parents? Do you go to the bathroom in front of your parents? Is showering or going to the bathroom bad? If you were married, would you have sex with your wife in front of your parents? Is having sex with your parents bad? No...it didn't seem logical, sorry :).

One last thing. You seem to think that so many things here are ok. Abortions are ok some of the time, masturbation is alright, pre-marital sex is fine, acting upon your homosexuality is fine too. What do you think is bad?

No...abortions are never ok, but the truth is that we can't stop women from commiting them, and we can't arrest them for it without being hypocritical and bad, so leave it to god to judge.

Doing something that you yourself consider to be wrong, is wrong. If I believe that murder is wrong, and I murder someone, then I have done wrong. Beyond that it's just a matter of social adjustment. People who murder and steal without guilt don't fit into society, so we try to adjust them.

Wacky_Baccy
06-30-2002, 03:33 PM
I'm not quite ready to discuss the abortion issue yet, but I'll add my piece about the rest.

By 123
Plus, you seem to think that condoms are the cure-all. They are not.

He hardly said that...

By Vestril
With the condoms, some of them [kids] will have unprotected sex, without the condoms, most of them will have unprotected sex.

He said that it makes a big difference, not that it was a cure-all.

By 123
People who were condoms have goten the other person pregnant.

But almost never if it's in-date and used properly.

It's normal to have a mom and a dad right?

Yes, I can't disagree there, but surely it would be in a child's best interests to have two loving parents (regardless of their gender/sexuality) rather than one (i.e. single parents), so I can't see how a child with two fathers or two mothers would have less of a chance at a normal, happy and successful life than a child with only one parent, or two heterosexual parents, for that matter.

He may grow up to think that it's ok to be in a relationship with another man. It's wrong.

You say that as if it were a fact; it's not. It's your opinion.

A guy and a guy can not produce a child.

Biologically, that's obviously true, but it in no way means that they couldn't care for and raise a child as well as or even better than a heterosexual couple, which is what you seem to be implying.

It's not right or fair to give the child the impression that that's ok.

Why? Because you personally don't believe it's okay?

I don't consider it right or fair to give a child the impression that it's not okay - if the child is homosexual, and he's told that this is a bad thing, then he is going to hate himself for seemingly being 'socially unnacceptable' through no fault of his own; it could scar him for life.

First of all, homosexuals are fine. They are just not able to act upon their homosexuality.

Do you mean you'd "rather they didn't"? Because I can assure you that they can and they do act on it.

They can't have children together. Sex is love communicating and has openess to having a child. You can't have a child with two men.

Is an "openness to having a child" always a part of sex between a man and a woman? No. It's not. Sex is not just about children; it's about showing love and trust, it's a way of bringing two people closer together, it's about pleasure.

If you can't have a child, than how are you expressing your love?

So you're also saying that if a heterosexual couple are unable to have children for whatever reason, then they aren't able to express their love for one another through sex?

...And regardless of that, I you said that sex itself was 'love communicating', so you're rather contradicting yourself there...

A child is the product of two people's love.

That's not always true, but I do see your point.

It is unfortunate if a couple can not have a child.
Yes, it certainly is, but there are other options (adoption, fostering, etc.), so not all is lost.


@Vestril: How was that for my first proper 'debate post'? :D


--Edit-- (I only just saw Vestril's post)

Damn. I knew I shouldn't have gone to make that sandwich :mad: :(

Oh well, my opinions/points can still be shared... :)

Vestril
06-30-2002, 04:31 PM
Good job wacky, that was your first? I thought you made your points better than I made mine. Anyway, don't feel bad that you and I posted around the same time--the more the merrier :D

King Andrei
06-30-2002, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
do you hate me if I dont believe in god?

I don't hate anyone because he/she has different beliefs. What kind of thread is this anyway?

Kurgan
06-30-2002, 04:41 PM
I would love to jump into this discussion, unfortunatley I've had a few almost identical to it (though it went into somewhat different directions) awhile back. Was interesting to say the least. ; )

Anyhow, one bit I'd add to this is that (regardless of how you feel about homosexuality and its rightness/wrongness/naturalness) I think you could argue that a heterosexual couple could have an advantage over a same-sex couple raising a child because it would give the child role models to live with for both males and females.

I think most child psychologists would agree that children get their earliest models of how men and women are supposed to behave from their parents. Obviously, not everyone is lucky enough to have two good parents of each gender like this, but I think you see where I'm coming from.

Keep the discussion going, as long as it can be done in a civilized manner (as many seem inclined to do) I say go for it... ; )

King Andrei
06-30-2002, 04:48 PM
Yeah, what a long discussion. This is one of the biggest topics I've ever seen.

Kurgan
06-30-2002, 05:11 PM
Incidentally if anybody is interested in my personal beliefs (all 2 of you, lol) here's some sites that are pretty close to what I believe:

http://www.doesgodexist.org
http://www.catholicoutlook.com

And to sum up: I think it matters more how you live your life than what creeds you mentally or verbally give assent to.

PS: If anybody else has a degree in religion and wants to talk, just give me a PM. ; )

King Andrei
06-30-2002, 05:16 PM
That's reminds me, I remember a website I once visited:

http://www.stopislam.com

Try it and tell me what you think.

technobot
06-30-2002, 11:25 PM
God gave us free choice because He didn't want robots. Free choice is something he even denied most of the angels. Satan had the gall to think he was equal to God, and was thus cast from heaven. Whether we go to Heaven or Hell will be a direct result of the decisions we make through life, our own decisions.

Obi-Wan13 said it best already, but God DOESN'T need us to love him. But He's our Father, and like any good Father, He wants His children to grow up, be good people, and love Him back, because as I'm sure many of us have done growing up, we've pissed off our parents but they love us regardless. God loves everyone of us more than any parent could love his/her own children.

Carl Sagan's quote from Contact (I'm paraphrasing)

Ellie: Prove to me God exists.

Palmer: Prove to me your father loved you.

Oh yeah, Limelight, I certainly don't hate you, especially if you DON'T believe in God. As a Christian, one of the things I try NOT to do (and it's probably one of the hardest ones :)) is to judge people, only God can judge us. And to judge others only brings judgement down from God.

Divine Spirit
07-01-2002, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Andrei555
That's reminds me, I remember a website I once visited:

http://www.stopislam.com

Try it and tell me what you think.

In response to the introduction story (cant be bothered to read the whole site):
theres always going to be some stories made by people with opposing religions to explain why other religions are wrong. the fact that so many religions exist proves the fact that these stories cant be proved right or wrong

King Andrei
07-01-2002, 01:08 AM
Was Mohamed really a serial rapist? And did he actually slaughtered so many people? Some people don't get it that terrorism has NOTHING to do with religion.

Lime-Light
07-01-2002, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by Andrei555
That's reminds me, I remember a website I once visited:

http://www.stopislam.com

Try it and tell me what you think. \

I certainly hope you dont hold those views. That is absolute crap. I've never read or seen anything about Islam in that light, and I've read enough to say its mostly lies. 80% of poeple are baised in this world by thier religion, and most cannot hold an objective view of things. That site is as much of a hate group as they claim Islam is. "Stop Islam"? How, sluaghter them? Feed them other religions untill they give in and abondon thier chosen beliefs? What freedom is that?

That site's sole purpose is to breed hate and misconception, whether what is says is true or not. It makes me entirely sick that someone is demented enough to create that site. (no, im not islamic or something).

Redwing
07-01-2002, 10:36 AM
Um, what on earth? One of my best friends is a Muslim girl from Lebanon. I don't know what Islam started out as, and I don't believe in it, but I know that it certainly isn't what is being protrayed there. All that is there is hate.

And, FYI: I'm a 'born again' Christian.

King Andrei
07-01-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
\

I certainly hope you dont hold those views. That is absolute crap. I've never read or seen anything about Islam in that light, and I've read enough to say its mostly lies. 80% of poeple are baised in this world by thier religion, and most cannot hold an objective view of things. That site is as much of a hate group as they claim Islam is. "Stop Islam"? How, sluaghter them? Feed them other religions untill they give in and abondon thier chosen beliefs? What freedom is that?

That site's sole purpose is to breed hate and misconception, whether what is says is true or not. It makes me entirely sick that someone is demented enough to create that site. (no, im not islamic or something).

Someone HAS obviuosly started that site after 11th of September, but what the bastard does not understand is that Islam has NOTHING to do with terrorism. I didn't really believe them, but I still have some suspicousy...

Pogwaffle
07-01-2002, 09:34 PM
I see I have come pretty late in this debate and much has been said. For some peoples intrest I am a "born again" Christian.

FunClown
07-01-2002, 10:00 PM
I knew a guy at school who was planning to join the Taliban last September (this was in 2000). Well after September 11 his mosque in my city got an explosive cocktail thrown at it. A 24 hour guard (tax payers expense) was then put in place and it was all in the media and the guy who did it got caught. What the media didn't tell us Australians who read the media is that 7 churches got bombed and kids in adjoining childcare places were threatened by middle eastern men that they were going to come and slit the childrens throats. No action was taken on this behalf.

I don't know about other people, but this saddens, annoys and really gets on my nerves. Especially in light of the Mosque having Taliban supporters. BTW, you will probably see the Taliban supporter at the commonwealth games competing for Australia at Manchester.

For the record I don't hate muslims, I just want everyone in this country to get a fair go. Because I'm in the majority its beginning to seem I'm not entitled to it.

obi
07-01-2002, 11:26 PM
Woa, I cought up on the reading, and all I have to say is this, And it should end this topic real fast:

"The higher, The Fewer."

(Joke for you Star Trek TNG fans:p)

No seriously, here is what I have to say about abortion:

It's wrong. You kill an innocent little baby. You don't want the baby, Don't have unprotected sex. You make stupid Choices, You live with stupid consequences.

Homosexuality:

Wrong. Pure Lust. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

(you can call me a gay basher all you want, But I don't Hate The gay people. I just hate the sin)


Pre-marital sex:

It's also wrong. I don't do it, and I wish that no one did. It can cause Aids, and other assorted viruses.

Masturbation:

Sick. I don't know why Anyone would want to do it.
*shudders*


I hope that my advice will reach some of you.

God bless.

Vestril
07-02-2002, 01:59 AM
Homosexuality:

Wrong. Pure Lust.

Pure lust? That's wrong, and rather naive. If it was pure lust, then why would they 'choose,' as you Christians seem to think they do, to be with people of the same sex? I mean honestly, we're built to be with people of the opposite sex, so if they're just horny, why don't they go get a woman?

Please don't try to suggest that it's something they go back and forth with, I have had gay friends who never have been with people of the opposite sex, and are disgusted by the thought of doing so. It is an ignorant (see definition above to avoid feeling insulted :)) person who thinks that it's just a matter of lust. Honestly, how many homosexuals have you met, and known well?

It's also wrong. I don't do it, and I wish that no one did. It can cause Aids, and other assorted viruses.

Well, as to the 'other assorted viruses,' coughing and breathing can do that for you...as can eating and basically anything else.

However, unprotected sex is especially dangerous, and if stopping the spread of disease is your intent, you're going about it the wrong way. Saying: 'don't have pre-marital sex, it's wrong!!' doesn't work. I think that's been established by the fact that the majority of people in America are taught that it's wrong, but the majority of people in America still do it.

So that isn't doing much to stop the spread of disease. There is another way you can stop the spread of disease though, it's called a condom, and it is probably the second most powerful tool against STDs (the first obviously being celibacy :)). Not many people can handle being celibate, but if you push condoms hard, and make a big deal of them, most people can handle those, so if you really want to stop AIDS and such things, that is the battle you should be fighting. I'm not saying give up on celibacy, I'm just saying that it's a battle that isn't likely to be won any time in the next century or two, so fight where it counts.

The unfortunate side to celibacy is that it promotes adultery. Obviously if you are able to strictly follow the bible, you will never have Pre-Marital sex, or commit adultery; the trouble is that most people are not perfect, and they make mistakes. If a man or woman is only ever with one partner sexually, over time he or she will begin to wonder if the grass is greener on the other side. He or she will wonder if sex with someone else might be better, and unfortunately as years of wondering build, the person will be more and more likely to cheat. I'm sure those who are Christians think that it is the people who have sex with a variety of partners who are more likely to cheat. That is not generally the case. Oh those people do cheat sometimes, but the people more likely to cheat are the ones who haven't tried anyone else.

I think I'm the perfect example of this...I think the likelyhood of my ever being unfaithful to a partner went down dramatically after I engaged in pre-marital sex with someone I didn't care about. It was fun, and what have you, but as I said somewhere in here before, it didn't compare to even kissing someone I loved. So it seems to me that my principles will be strengthened by the fact that I will always know that even if I do cheat, it won't be as good as anything I did with my wife.

I have some ideas about god and that topic that I would like to share...but I think this post has been long enough :p

Wacky_Baccy
07-02-2002, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
Homosexuality:

Wrong. Pure Lust. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
How do you know that homosexual sex is purely lust-driven? How?

From what I've seen, a homosexual couple is just as caring, affectionate and loving as a heterosexual one.

(you can call me a gay basher all you want, But I don't Hate The gay people. I just hate the sin)

Hating them for something they do that is perfectly natural for them is just as offensive, insulting, and hurtful as hating them for being them - in fact, there's little difference, as far as I can see.

Pre-marital sex:

It's also wrong. I don't do it, and I wish that no one did. It can cause Aids, and other assorted viruses.

How does it 'cause' AIDS? It may spread it (or HIV), but having pre-marital sex is no more or less likely to get you infected than 'post marital' sex is. Unprotected casual sex, however, is a different matter.

What you don't seem to understand is that many unmarried couples are in monogamous relationships, with just as little risk of getting STDs as married couples - they're not all sleeping around - most of then aren't.

Masturbation:

Sick. I don't know why Anyone would want to do it.
*shudders*
I could say something bloody obvious here, but I won't, because there's a remote chance I'd get banned for it.

Why is masturbation sick? And how could you know why anyone would want to do it if you haven't done it yourself?


--Edit--

Damn. Beaten again :(

Vestril
07-02-2002, 02:24 AM
Damn. Beaten again

I assume we keep getting the same urge to visit this thread at the same time, but you are in the middle of eating ice cream when you get it...:p

Wacky_Baccy
07-02-2002, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by Vestril

I assume we keep getting the same urge to visit this thread at the same time, but you are in the middle of eating ice cream when you get it...:p
:lol: :lol: LMAO!

Cheeky sod! :D

Actually, I'll have you know that I very rarely eat ice cream (although I love it... Which is why I eat it infrequently... If you see what I mean :D), and that I had my reply all but finished ten minutes before you posted yours, but I re-wrote a portion of it, thus making me late again :mad: :p :D

I'll be quicker next time... Just you wait... :D

Vestril
07-02-2002, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by Wacky_Baccy

:lol: :lol: LMAO!

Cheeky sod! :D

Actually, I'll have you know that I very rarely eat ice cream (although I love it... Which is why I eat it infrequently... If you see what I mean :D), and that I had my reply all but finished ten minutes before you posted yours, but I re-wrote a portion of it, thus making me late again :mad: :p :D

I'll be quicker next time... Just you wait... :D

Feel free, then I won't have to worry about getting Carpal Tunnel Syndrome from writing these posts...lol

Lime-Light
07-02-2002, 03:37 AM
Just keeps going and going...

obi
07-02-2002, 03:49 AM
Well those where just my opinions. You can like um or not like um, But don't hate me for having them

Vestril
07-02-2002, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Just keeps going and going...

:rolleyes: As it has for many centuries.

--Edit--

Obi Wan--I don't hate you, I just disagree with you. I try very hard not to hate anyone, though some people just don't seem to have any clear redeeming factors...

Anyway, you're not one of those people--you're a cool guy, and I happen to think you're uninformed, and if you knew more gay people, you wouldn't dissaprove so stringently :). I could be wrong, but I have met very few people with gay friends that thought homosexuality was evil (or acting on homosexuality).

obi
07-02-2002, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by Vestril


:rolleyes: As it has for many centuries.

I think he was talkin about the thread. But, this thread MAY very well go on for centuries.:D

Vestril
07-02-2002, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by obi-wan13


I think he was talkin about the thread. But, this thread MAY very well go on for centuries.:D

I know, I'm just saying that he seems so shocked by it, but it will keep going on and it should keep going on because this has at the heart of it a very old argument.

Lime-Light
07-02-2002, 06:10 AM
....one completely impossible to win.

MotionMan
07-02-2002, 07:44 AM
The problem is that the topic of religion shouldnt be about who wins or not. That is why things are the way they are.
Everyone wants to convince everyone that their religion is the truth. When in fact everyone is just being closed minded. They are closing their doors to anything BUT their own beleifs.

Vestril
07-02-2002, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by MotionMan
The problem is that the topic of religion shouldnt be about who wins or not. That is why things are the way they are.
Everyone wants to convince everyone that their religion is the truth. When in fact everyone is just being closed minded. They are closing their doors to anything BUT their own beleifs.

It's a debate, the purpose is to enlighten other people, not to 'win' what is winning, anyway? To force the other person into sharing your beliefs?

MotionMan
07-02-2002, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Vestril


It's a debate, the purpose is to enlighten other people, not to 'win' what is winning, anyway? To force the other person into sharing your beliefs?
Right, thats basically what I said;)

Vestril
07-02-2002, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by MotionMan

Right, thats basically what I said;)

Not really, you pointed out what it is, and shouldn't be. I weas saying what it should be. I win!!!! :p

MotionMan
07-02-2002, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Vestril


Not really, you pointed out what it is, and shouldn't be. I weas saying what it should be. I win!!!! :p

WHY YOU.....!

Youll burn in hell!;)

Vestril
07-02-2002, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by MotionMan


WHY YOU.....!

Youll burn in hell!;)

'better laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints'

:D

DemonKing
07-02-2002, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
do you hate me if I dont believe in god?

How can you not believe in God?

I"M RIGHT HERE!

Lime-Light
07-02-2002, 03:12 PM
Oh. Of course. I feel stupid now.