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angelDP
06-28-2002, 02:09 PM
Oh what a twisted web we weave...Where did it all begin...well...

First of all,

As not enough of you know *wink* I have been spending the last three days hammering out a level based on The Matrix that was to include the following areas

*Guns. Lots of Guns
-Pure white room with an ‘entrance’ sign for the lobby and a phone/door/something to go to the Nebuchadnezzar

*The lobby
-With an elevator to the roof, breakables and good…stuff…

*The roof
-In all it’s roofy glory.

*The Nebuchadnezzar
-That was going to be tough

To view the WIP thread and screens as the days progressed, go ahead and check my signature for a link.

It’s been exactly 3 full days now, and I’ve been working long and hard. Lots of nice folks have helped out or have just been there to say ‘rock on’ (GOGO: RichDiesal, Vio, Volrath, Kevin Miller(no, you don’t know him)) and it has been (until now) a more or less positive experience. Things where starting to go from 3D blocks to matrix-like 3D blocks, and I had plans for the future. I had ideas swirling through my head, and I was chock-full o optimism. Then, tonight happened.

Now I don’t want to point fingers here, I mean, he seemed so nice at first, and I just don’t even know if anything happened. But, here it is.

This evening, I fire up jk2files.com to check out what was new and what was doing well. It’s fun to follow the maps and mappers. Of course, the map that catches my eye is:

Matrix: Sparring Program

I don’t know exactly what I thought that first moment, but I knew I wanted to see how other people approached this ‘new world’ of the matrix, and I thought it would be fun to have someone else to bounce ideas off and talk to. The map has received nothing but praise, and it looked decent, so I check out the guy’s info. I glance at the e-mail and realize it is @aol.com, so I slap the base name on my buddy list and go on mapping and playing around in my level ^^.

A while latter, he signs on, and I get an idea. Maybe he would let me use his .map (or we could colaborate), so that I (we) could:

*Resize my Guns. Lots Of Guns (GLOG from hence forward) portion to fit his Dojo.
*Change all of the dojo brushes to func_usables
*Add a switch that could ‘turn on’ or ‘off’ the dojo in the GLOG area, which would serve as an area in-between the Lobby portion of the level and the Nebuchadnezzar portion of the level.

How cool would that be!!!

I told him how my map is so far, and asked him if I could use his map. He, understandably, asked to see my work as it stood.

He sayed he would be thrilled to help out, and notes that he is good w/ textures and shadders after I point out I haven’t even started that process. I link him to my best (albeit outdated) shot to date (http://members.cox.net/angeldesignpro/middle.jpg) and start to send him the map. He seems to like it. (It looks good, if a little dark, IIRC was his quote). We talk, and get ideas, and get along. I send him the .bsp file by accident, then correct the issue and send the .map for him to get a feel for what’s going on. We have great ideas, and everything is looking so good.

Sometime between him receiving the file and my sending the .bsp, I mention that I at least am impressed with myself, it being three days after I made my first cube.

And then, he...wel...he…changed…

He said something to the nature of “hang on one second. This isn’t what I had expected”. And then jsut went off the wall.

He started to comment that my architecture was all-wrong, and that the level looked bad. He said that I should find someone else to work with. He also finds room to mention ‘his dojo level only took 4 hours, and every texture was custom’. He says he will ‘keep in touch’, and then we stop talking. At this point, I feel, I don’t know, not double crossed, but… I don’t know. He jsut abrubtly went form 'yay' to 'back off'. I said somthing like 'So this means we won't work togethor at all?' and he said somthing like 'Basicly'

Hey, it could be worse.

An hour or so latter, I’m not sure exactly, I IM him again telling him I had found a solution to one of the skybox problems that ‘made my level un-workable’. He says something to the nature of ‘great, whatever’ and then tells me he sent some screen shots of:

His matrix lobby level.

It's worse.

That he had been working on ‘for just an hour’.

But hey, he noted, it ONLY has two custom textures.

allow me quote his e-mail:

“Ive only been workin on it for an hour but this is what I got so far.”

For reference, here are the two screens I was sent (http://members.cox.net/angeldesignpro/C.jpg)
(http://members.cox.net/angeldesignpro/C2.jpg)

(Those have to be capitol C’s, by the way, if you plan to re-type)

At this point, I am defiantly feeling double-crossed. He claims that they where just to show me how he was doing.

I didn’t understand, I said, why was he showing me those/ DOING that? He said he just wanted to ‘give me encouragement’ and ‘make me work harder’. He didn't think he had done anything 'wrong'.

Then, the worst, was when I ask him why he disliked my map so much, when did we go form converging to competing? he said,

“You are just too new. You mad newbie errors, such as using hollow and CSG subtract” Is as near as I can remember his quote.

no. No. NO.

Not once did my mouse touch any of those buttons. I had read Rich’s tutorial, I had talked with Rich extensively, I didn’t do anything that stupid.

He responded ‘sorry, it’s hard to tell’.

And after some discussion that was more or less calm, but none-the-less not a fight, he asked, ‘was I some 10 year old or something, why was I getting so worked up’.

Eventually he signed off and left me winded. I just don’t even know what happened. It was half way into the discussion before I even realized he was a member of NwO (NwO deadlock). I don’t know what to think, should I be angry, put in my place, sad, or nothing at all?

I am knew, and I tried so hard. I jsut feel COMPLETELY shot down right now. It was... I jsut don't know.

:ball:

Xcom
06-28-2002, 03:36 PM
Ah, don't worry. You'll get over it. :)

alienprotein
06-28-2002, 04:15 PM
Just keep your chin up, and keep up the hard work. At least, in the end you will have the satisfaction of knowing you completed your first map.

And just ask for help here. I know there are great mappers who help out on this forum, and would be more then glad to help you without being FLAMED......

Perhaps he was feeling pressured to teach you how to make a map, and had other things he was working on.

Just buck up little camper, and get toast a marshmallow on the FLAMES.....


I must admit that was one hell of a read. I think that post did it for me tonight.. Eyes need rest. :p

sights0d
06-28-2002, 04:53 PM
Wow. Don't worry... I'm thinking that he just had his own stuff going on. I'm sure your map looks good.
You know... this reminds me of when one of my friends was trying to teach me some German and no matter how I pronounced it, he said that I wasn't getting that phlegmy sound in the back of my throat... which of course is bull, since I've spoken Hebrew and Yiddish since I could walk. Some people just want to sound like experts at everyone else's expence.
Anyway... keep chugging.

Derisor
06-28-2002, 05:57 PM
Id advise you to ignore the jerk, finish the map as per your original plan. Mkae a better mousetrap so to speak. He is probably just some dork that has to prove himself by tearing others down. Id suggest you go back to plan A and have fun doing it. The idea sounds great.

Catscratch
06-28-2002, 06:47 PM
"I had read Rich’s tutorial, I had talked with Rich extensively, I didn’t do anything that stupid"

Well. Im on your side on this issue but im dissapointed by the sentence above. If there's a stupidity, im sure its been done by the programmer of the JK2radient about those CSG substract and hollow things. Using them shouldn't be some stupid thing for users cause they wouldn't know what they can cause at the first time.

I can help ya about your map if you want. At least i can provide some ideas to put in your map(s). Contact me by icq 13691565.
I really wanna see your work.

Graphicsgod
06-28-2002, 07:03 PM
Damn what a d*** (but who am I to talk ;), I say stupid shiot all the time)!

Hey if you need shader help, let me know.


graphicsgod2@hotmail.com

UniKorn
06-28-2002, 07:46 PM
Just keep doing what you are doing, your shots look great. Don't be disappointed by his words about what he can do in an hour, it can be done in an hour, that is true, but it cannot be done in an hour if you just started mapping, and when it's done in an hour, you'll probably have to spend a lot of time rebuilding everything that appears wrong. Your stuff looks very good for someone who just has started mapping, and no matter how long it takes, its the endresult that counts.

The guy you are talking to acts like a dork, but I do think you should consider a few things. First of all, I've been called an elitist as well, since I sometimes give very short answers like : the lighting is wrong, and I don't clarify myself. But most of the time it was just out of lack of time. I don't know who the guy is you have been talking to, but if he is a "known" mapper, he'll probably get lots of people asking him stuff. And from time to time that gets annoying. I try to answer most people, but from time to time I just like to chill, without having to put down msn.
I got this guy who asks me everytime I log on if I am mapping or working on co-op. After 10 logons you are fed up with it. After 20 logons it gets on your nerves. The guy who was helping you might just have had a bad day, you never know :)

Don't worry, if you look at all the support you're getting here, you'll get there ;)

FunClown
06-28-2002, 09:44 PM
this reminds me of when one of my friends was trying to teach me some German and no matter how I pronounced it, he said that I wasn't getting that phlegmy sound in the back of my throat...

That also reminds me of a story where I once had two Yugoslavian friends at school. For one and a half years I was pronouncing one of their names the way its pronounced in English. Then one day out of the blue she started laughing at me and saying I couldn't say her name properly. Well all I can say is I didn't know any better :confused:

BTW AngelDP, there are many dodgy characters on the internet. People who may act friendly or like one of your friends may really be taking you for a ride. Its pretty sad when it happens in a community such as this.

Derisor
06-28-2002, 11:20 PM
Using hollow to speed create a set of planes like caulk bounding boxes for curve sets is not a big deal so long as you remember to move them out of the overlaps after they get hollowed. Same for CSG. Its not the toop thats the problem but how people use it.

angelDP
06-29-2002, 01:47 AM
Well, thanks for all of the suport. I think I realy owe it to myself to keep going...

About CSG subtract/hollow, the only reason I responded by calling it 'stupidity' was because thats how he attacked -> He said 'I wwas making foolish errors such as using CSG/hollow' and that made me...angry...I know there are uses for both of them, and it isn't STUPID, just often more work than it's worth, he was the one who who called them stupid. Sorry if that came out wrong.

BTW, a couple of people mentioned they didn't know who I was talking about, I mentioned his name somewhere but if you missed it he was NwO Deadlock.

*sigh* I wasn't even asking for help or how to learn, or even anything, all I wanted was to use his map, then he wanted to colaborate to use the map, then...*shrug*

If you want to see the map as it stood when I e-mailed it to him,

http://members.cox.net/angeldesignpro/matrixe.map

Derisor
06-29-2002, 03:16 AM
I ran it ans I think you have a good start. =) One suggestion I might make is to reduce the number of hard corners. Throw some curves in. Otherwise, keep pluggin on it.

=)

volrathxp
06-29-2002, 06:06 AM
Angel DP:

Keep on going. The more creative and the more original you can be with this the better. If you keep at it and keep trying and working hard enough, you can make some great maps. NOW GET BACK TO WORK!! :p hehe j/k

sights0d
06-29-2002, 06:09 AM
What's wrong with using csg subtract?

winner_rex
06-29-2002, 10:27 AM
2 Words:
AOL USER!!

Emon
06-29-2002, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by sights0d
What's wrong with usin csg subtract?

Nothing. Infact, it's often very necissary to built certain things easily.

There is also nothing wrong with using hollow aslong as you fix any overlapping brushes afterwards.

Emon
06-29-2002, 10:44 AM
Oh, I forgot to mention, that even if you have a few overlapping brushes, it's no big deal. They aren't going to kill your compile times or framerates unless they are all over.

Hubris
06-29-2002, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by sights0d
What's wrong with using csg subtract?

Well, the problem with it is it seems so easy to use to the early mapper type, as in the ultimate solution to creating funky brushes (or seems to be), but the issue with it is that instead of clipping the brush that's being subtracted it shatters them, creating anywhere from 3 to literally hundreds of new brushes. With a six sided brush (a cube) against another six sided brush subtract works great, in fact, it is just as optimal as clipping it, and much much faster, however, the more faces you add to that, it'll start shattering the brushes into far too many segments, thus reducing performance significantly.

If CSG subtract clipped as a single brush I'd be in heaven. :eek:

As for the guy himself, that sucks, but as you listed in your thanks, there are far more people in this community, and any mapping community, that will help you as a opposed to ripping your ideas off. Don't be detered, and keep up the good work, my first map was a big poopy conglomeration of polys, yours looks quite nice, you're gonna be a good mapper.

Emon
06-29-2002, 10:48 AM
Hubris is right.

Also, say you've got your nice terrain brushes made with GenSurf, and you want to carve out a base in the mountain side? Are you going to clip all those brushes? Hell no, you're gonna use CSG subtract. I'd be hell to try and clip all of those, especially on complex, smooth terrain

VIO
06-29-2002, 11:02 AM
don't worry about him he doesn't have my "code" :p kidding no your doing great i would sujjest you add some more detail im sure you will because you just started and hell if he can do it in an hour wo cares took me forever to make my first map ever though it was small, your learning radiant on this map so don't expect it to be fast, he already knows how to map so of course he can do things faster...and if he releases his mapp and its a total ripp off of yours well...um...hmm

RichDiesal
06-29-2002, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Emon
Oh, I forgot to mention, that even if you have a few overlapping brushes, it's no big deal. They aren't going to kill your compile times or framerates unless they are all over.

Ehh, I dunno about that. My compile time on one map jumped up about 5 minutes from one set of overlapping brushes when I first started mapping. 5 minutes might not seem like a long time, but when you do that a few times over the course of an entire map, that can really add up fast. Plus it causes very noticable z-fighting most of the time.

Also, say you've got your nice terrain brushes made with GenSurf, and you want to carve out a base in the mountain side? Are you going to clip all those brushes? Hell no, you're gonna use CSG subtract. I'd be hell to try and clip all of those, especially on complex, smooth terrain
Ehh... well see, I would make the terrain first and then make the mountain to match it so that CSG would not be necessary.

Just depends how you approach it, really it. Any time you use CSG, you run the risk of creating errors that are utter hell to try to eliminate. As a general rule, it really is best to avoid its use entirely.

Emon
06-29-2002, 12:02 PM
1. I meant overlapping brushes for like one cube room.

2. For the mountain, I meant if you wanted to have like a base that carves INTO the mountain. You cannot create the terrain around a base, at least not with GenSurf or without doing it manually.

hanksta2
06-29-2002, 12:56 PM
Jedi System Specs:

-Gigabyte 7DXR Motherboard
-Athlon 1.53 GHz
-512MB PC2100 DDR RAM
-Single 40GB 7,200 RPM IBM HDD
-Dual 6GB 5400 RPM Western Digital HDDs running in RAID 0
-VisionTek GeForce 3 Ti 200
-Soundblaster PCI128 4-channel

-Jedi Knight II 1x1" case sticker

Yeah, that would be a Jedi System like 5 years ago...

RichDiesal
06-29-2002, 01:34 PM
That would be a Jedi system 4 months ago. :p

And that's what I mean... design the terrain, then design the mountain into the terrain, blending the two manually. :)

Hubris
06-29-2002, 04:03 PM
Heh, whoops, my first post should have read "My first map was a big poopy conglomeration of polys, you'll be a great mapper" was tired when I wrote it. :p

Ah Boon
06-29-2002, 08:00 PM
ur map is cool man! im working on my first map too.... it has been like 2 weeks since i started :D im adding death pits blah blah blah...

SHAME ON ME!!! IM PIMPING!!! :D exucse me pls!

back to the topic, u might wanna add some more lights btw cause without the lights, it looks too dark and in the movie, the lobby aint tat dark. ignore tat fella and carryone with ur work. i wanna see that released btw ;) dont disappoint us!

angelDP
06-29-2002, 10:07 PM
Yes sir *grin*

I'm gone all weekend, but i'll be back to work sunday evening.

Emon
06-30-2002, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by RichDiesal
That would be a Jedi system 4 months ago. :p

And that's what I mean... design the terrain, then design the mountain into the terrain, blending the two manually. :)

1. Jedi means I use it for JO...

2. No no, you're missing my point entirly. Say you have a CTF map with lots of mountanous (sp?) terrain made in GenSurf. Okay now lets say you want the red team's base to have the basic shape of a rectangular building (obviously with some more details too), and you want it to be EMBEDDED in the mountain side. I've never tried it, but wouldn't it be a lot easier to just use CSG subtract?

RichDiesal
06-30-2002, 02:54 AM
It would be easier, yes, but it would also fragment your mountain into thousands of (probably uncaulked) pieces.

Emon
06-30-2002, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by RichDiesal
It would be easier, yes, but it would also fragment your mountain into thousands of (probably uncaulked) pieces.

Odd, because I just tried that with GTKRad and GenSurf. I came up with NO excess brushes (smallest amount possible), and they were caulked, too.

angelDP
06-30-2002, 09:43 AM
Ah yes, using GTKradient, now that will help win Rich over to your side:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I'm posting from my dad's 1.5 mhz pentium 1/16th with 28.8K modem power, so no JK2 or mapping until I get home tomorrow :o Cry for me...

Klorel
06-30-2002, 11:59 AM
Some people do the same maps/models as WIPs to make better ones cause they think they can and that it would be a good addition for the community.

others do it to beat someone else to feel better about other "short-comings".

It sounds to me like he "stole" your idea. Not like the people who make the naboo reactor, they want to improve the level. this guy literally saw (and had) what you had, knew with his experience he would do it more accurately, and then rubbed it in your face.

None of us can fix your problem, but dont let it discourage you; he was once as new as you are. think, maybe you could be a really amazing mapper and provide all kinds of great adventures for the community, finish the matrix map, then move on to bigger and better things. experience takes time, so just keep at it.

p.s. you were right to get worked up about it, i would have been mad as hell.

Guardian Omega
06-30-2002, 01:53 PM
O_O...........

Can I be your mapping apprentice?

Emon
07-01-2002, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by angelDP
Ah yes, using GTKradient, now that will help win Rich over to your side:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Should I care? I know GTKRad is overall much better than JK2Rad, I don't care what anyone tells me.

Galactic Magi
07-01-2002, 03:04 AM
okay......um.......well im sorry about that but all you just said was a story about something that happened to you with someone and you just threw little things about mapping in there......if your gonna make a topic in the mapping and levels make it about the maps in threads or your map not along with one story. Heres how you could have made this message the easy way: Hey my map was pretty good but someone said it was bad so im posting a comparison, tell me what you think. Im sorry about what happened to you but frankly its really none of my concern.

volrathxp
07-01-2002, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by Galactic Magi
okay......um.......well im sorry about that but all you just said was a story about something that happened to you with someone and you just threw little things about mapping in there......if your gonna make a topic in the mapping and levels make it about the maps in threads or your map not along with one story. Heres how you could have made this message the easy way: Hey my map was pretty good but someone said it was bad so im posting a comparison, tell me what you think. Im sorry about what happened to you but frankly its really none of my concern.

that sure was rude

Galactic Magi
07-01-2002, 03:16 AM
lighten up i didnt mean it as an insult and i am sorry for him.

volrathxp
07-01-2002, 03:18 AM
t'sok.

Galactic Magi
07-01-2002, 03:20 AM
i like the map, keep up the good work

RichDiesal
07-01-2002, 03:47 AM
The thing to keep in mind is that this is not just an editing support forum. If you want just editing support and nothing else, go to Massassi and get the hell out of here. :p

This is a community, meant as both an editing support forum and as a congregation of mappers who want to share their (map related) problems and see how the community reacts.

He sent his WIP map to an NwO member. He was then doublecrossed, his map stolen, and ran away with. Thus he has a complaint that the mapping community can help him deal with. There was nothing wrong with him posting his story here. :)

End of discussion!! :p

volrathxp
07-01-2002, 07:05 AM
good point rich

angelDP
07-01-2002, 09:47 AM
I can see how he read it the wrong way, I blame the fact that you can't show emotions on the internet except with smileys. For example, A friend IM'd me and said:

Hi there!

I responded:

Why hello

In my mind, I was saying 'Why hello!' using why to emphasize my greeting. HE however, at first, thought I was asking "Why hello???" as if I was mad or somthing. It makes life difficult, so everyone has to cut people some slack.

:- )

Thanks for the suport though, Rich (and everyone)

Wes Marrakesh
07-02-2002, 03:13 AM
That deadlock dude sounds like one SOB f***er
your map is great, keep it up. Good point rich.
Oh and on CSG Subtract, i used it one to make a door and it totally screwed my map :rolleyes:
thx for letting me post pics on your site angel, you rock!
don't let that bastard get you down, he's probably jealous anyway ;)