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samamorgan
06-29-2002, 03:03 PM
Just wanted to say....

Everything is possible, wether you like it or not. For all you know, an alien could come down right now and turn us all into purple banannas.

Stop being a know it all. If you knew it all, you would rule the world. And all i see you doing is posting on a coding forum.

Just had to say that, you were just pissing me off with your rude comments and your no-hope attitude.

Master Xavier
06-30-2002, 01:31 AM
well I think..... :eek:

(alien comes down and turns me into purple bannana)

(:D couldn't resist)

Emon
06-30-2002, 02:06 AM
Huh? I wasn't being rude.

I assume you were talking about how I said it would be impossible to disassemble compiled C++ code out of a DLL and get it into a fully readable format. Okay, fine, it's POSSIBLE, but there's about a .0000001% change of it being mathematically possible.

Also, there's a huge difference between no hope and being REALISTIC. Go to any C++ coding forums with experianced programmers and ask them if you can decompile a DLL into readable source. Guess what they'll say? No. Besides, even if you could, you wouldn't be able to realese it because it would be illegal, and you'd be fined out of the wazoo for that.

And about animations, well, of course you can make new animations, but the chance of someone willing to pay for SoftImage (nearly impossible to warez it) is minimal. It takes a long time to get good with the program, but once you are, you can definatly create new animations just as good as the ones in JO.

About animating a new saber combat system (like for two sabers) is possible, but what good will it be unless it's good as the existing saber combat? Making animations isn't just *click click click* "Mommy, look I made 300 animtions in an hour!!". Someone's gotta be willing to dedicate a good half a year to just making new animtions, or even more time than that. Do you honestly think that anyone is willing to do this? Perhaps a few people are, but again the chances are really slim.


I'm being realistic here, folks. I don't think you should go plan some huge SP TC with two lightsabers, a lightstaff with all new animations and new SP code in the name of "it's possible". When you start working on a mod, you have to think REALISTICALLY. You gotta think, "Are we ever really going to WANT to do all this? Can we even DO any of it? Are we dedicated enough to do this?" Maybe, maybe not. Just because I'm being realistic here while all of you go dancing around in glee because someone thought of a mod idea that probably won't happen, doesn't mean I'm being rude.

P.S.

If you have a problem with ME, then e-mail me or send me a PM instead of posting a PRIVATE message on the PUBLIC forum.

NITEMARE
06-30-2002, 04:08 AM
hey! thats friggin unfair! where is the flame thread about me???
i kind of have the same opinions as emon on this subject and already posted that. but ok i didnt post it into one of those "new mod idea" threads because i nearly totaly ignore those worthless threads. i realy like your answer emon. its the exact thing i am thinking all the time. it realy buggs me that most of the people here are interessted in yoda models and double saber or unrealistic mod ideas...
if u are a coder (good one or a newb doesnt matter) please tell me if u like my mod ideas. i realy need some guys working on it and i only have me and mabe another one next week mabe. i cant code for real and have enough **** to do with map making...
http://www.nitemares.de/duel_se/

Emon
06-30-2002, 04:47 AM
Well a smaller Yoda for MP I think is possible, and I think it's been done. I never said it wouldn't be possible, but I didn't know how, so I asked, and now I get flamed...

samamorgan
06-30-2002, 04:51 AM
Whoa that was alot of spam! Who else can i piss off today?

LOL

Don't get mad at me for being me.

NITEMARE
06-30-2002, 06:00 AM
its a bad thing that the search funktion is off due to high traffic or stuff but why cant admins just keep the forums clean? i am an admin myself, on a very small board compared to this, but compared to a single forum here its the same. and if i see a post like this or another disturbing or totaly stupid thing i close it and give an explanation, after a day i remove the thread.
there are many threads here i would...$$=%$(=?($%&=?(&$!!!

Emon
06-30-2002, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by samamorgan
Whoa that was alot of spam! Who else can i piss off today?

LOL

Don't get mad at me for being me.

1. I was being me. You were mad at me for me being me. Don't be a hypocryte.

2. You were never joking or just trying to piss people off. You heartily felt that I was rude and I was being pessimistic. Then when you got replies that made you look like a complete fool, you try to pull this joke. How pathetic.

NickR
06-30-2002, 07:30 AM
Emon dude, Chill!

Most mod teams will have SoftImage by now. If not by borrowing means then by warez means. Either way it won't be hard to get a hold of.

And about the animations, yeah your right about how long it would take to do each animation, but coding new anims will be a simple cut and paste joby. But if you think about it, how many times do you think Raven kept having to redo the animation code and the actual animations to get the saber system working properly? Quite a few times I imagine. We won't have that problem.

Finally, not all of us are as lazy as you probably are. I for one like dedicating my time to game/mod development, it helps me learn more about the skills I need to get into the game industry.

You are right about the DLL disassembling though. It's virtually impossible to do and the output would be ni on impossible to understand.

Emon
06-30-2002, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by NickR
Most mod teams will have SoftImage by now. If not by borrowing means then by warez means. Either way it won't be hard to get a hold of.


There are about one or two mod teams that CLAIM to have SoftImage, and they probably don't. No one wants to pay thousands of dollars for it, I think it's around 10K for it. Warez? Ha, no. To my knowledge there has never been a successful warez of SoftImage, the protection is THAT good. I mean this is stuff that ILM used to make EP1 and EP2, it's not easy to come by.

And about Raven... Well Raven has a team of HIRED people who are PROFESSIONALS, plus they payed tens of thousands of dollars to get most of the animations motion captured at the House of Moves in, I think, California.


I'm not trying to stop this stuff from happening at all. I think tons of new anims will be great. But I'm being realistic, hardly anyone has SoftImage, and if they do, they probably won't be able to do much with it.

NITEMARE
06-30-2002, 08:33 AM
AMEN!
NickR, just tell me what mod u made so far and then i'll take u serious. beeing realistic about things is good, but do not to an extreme. that however did not happen, tho emon had to chill u guys out before u waste your time on unreachable dreams and after realizing how futile it was just turn your back on the moding thing or what? thats a bad thing going on, if people are reaching for things they just cant at the moment instead of working with stuff we have and can do. its hard enough to do the little things. and we have to use the enthusiasm aslong as it lasts for things we actually can achieve AND enjoy them! like me: never wanted to snoop into coding things, but i have a server and was very unhappy with things. then the source code came out and i started looking around for stuff i can change by my own, little things but effective tho. like damage values and stuff. with time it became more and more, but i see the end of this since i cant code and wont learn it. mapping is hard enough and important too.
its nice that some people have long time plans for mods/tc but the current gameplay is not improving from utopic ideas, but from practical realistic ideas that dont require alot but change alot. and if the gameplay does not get some modifications...well enthusiasm will fade mabe...

skew
06-30-2002, 02:40 PM
re decompiling:

Each compiler does its own optimizations and in different cases. But, compilation is still a set of discrete steps. If you knew these steps, decompiling should be trivial.

Im sure someone frequenting these forums could further shed some light on this subject.

Monder
06-30-2002, 06:19 PM
skew:You are assuming all processes are reversable. But they're not. If you square a number you can't the original answer back. Why? Cause the square root of a number and it's negative equivilent are the same. So i've given you an example of one reversable process. Compiling and linking are very complicated processes. I seriously doubt anyone will ever make a perfect decompiler(well for a no-debug version of an exe). And anyway I don't know if compiling has some irreversable processes like the sqauring thing I mentioned but if it does there will never be a perfect decompiler

Commodus
06-30-2002, 10:35 PM
Err, before I came to Jedi Outcast, I used to work as a news updator on a fansite for Westwood's Command and Conquer: Renegade, and I remember hearing that one guy managed to disassemble a DLL file (Westwood gave us an incredibly ****ty mod editor, so we tried to do things by force) I think he even gave a link to his disassembler.... I'll try and dig it up for you guys...

Emon
07-01-2002, 02:20 AM
I can dissassemble DLLs and EXEs, too. Do you know what it dissassembles it into? Nothing be hexidecimal stuff. It's only useful for changing text values and making no CD cracks.

fourwood
07-01-2002, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by Emon

Warez? Ha, no. To my knowledge there has never been a successful warez of SoftImage, the protection is THAT good.

Wrong.

Monder
07-01-2002, 03:59 AM
You can get things that convert asm into c. So you effectivly decomplile into c. Only instead of unreadable asm you get unreadable c. You may be able to do something really small but definetely not make an entire mod. Oh and you probably won't be able to recompile disassembled stuff anyway

samamorgan
07-01-2002, 04:17 AM
You cant make me look like an idiot. I cant be embarassed. Im on an online forum! I dont know you. I responded to the lack of hope and total lack of respect to others that i saw. You in fact insulted people and probably pissed them off in one way or another by stamping out thier ideas before they could even try them. Let things be, and hold your tounge.

jipe
07-01-2002, 04:49 AM
Warez? Ha, no. To my knowledge there has never been a successful warez of SoftImage, the protection is THAT good.

Trinity managed to warez XSI 2.01, but it did take them 3 months. I've also seen XSI 1.5 floating around. Regardless, even if you acquire the program, the learning curve is ridiculously high.

NITEMARE
07-01-2002, 05:04 AM
i bet he wasnt even close to beeing rude enough to please my hunger for telling those stupid trend hype f.u.c.k.ups how useless their ideas are if they wont have a chance to try it. should he say: yeah why not, try it out! ?
thats not construktive, since its better to pull them dreamers back to earth befor they give up jk2 and do nothing but dreaming until they realise how futile it was.

skew
07-01-2002, 06:18 AM
Monder,

Good point. Decompiling the .dlls and .sos would probably be a tad bit more difficult than I originally thought.. although I dont think the square root example would directly apply ;)

I was thinking, though, that since most java .classes can be decompiled because

1) the instructions that the interpreter expects must be the same across platforms (assuming the interpreter inserts the usual system specifics) and
2) because its a controlled execution environment,

maybe the .qvm files would be easier to decompile than system specific libraries? Afterall, the .qvms are handled similarly to the way .classes are handled within the jvm.

Monder
07-01-2002, 06:43 AM
Dunno how qvm's actually work. I would reackon they're a modified dll. If they're not and they're like java classes then yes a decompile would be greatly simplified. Though sp code is in a dll and all the mp code is in qvm. So there's no point in decompiling qvm's. We already have the source

Emon
07-01-2002, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by jipe


Trinity managed to warez XSI 2.01, but it did take them 3 months. I've also seen XSI 1.5 floating around. Regardless, even if you acquire the program, the learning curve is ridiculously high.

Exactly, 3 months. Not to mention that the vast majority of people wouldn't know where to begin to crack that thing.


I don't know your problem is, sama. Apparently you think that all these mods teams just go, "Click click click, hey we have an entire TC with tons of models, textures, sounds and hundreds of animations!" and you apparently think that I'm trying to stop mods from happening. I'm not. However I'm trying to make people aware of the very high difficulty it is to do this things. If I don't (or even if I do) chances are they'll start working on the mod, get a few things done, then when it comes to something like animations or SP coding, they'll be at a stalemate and won't be able to continue. Thus all their previous work will be useless or almost useless. This is the stuff I'm trying to prevent.

NickR
07-01-2002, 09:30 AM
Guess what Emon... my mod teams lead concept artist has a friend in texas who owns a motion capture studio. Is this true? Fraid SO!! And do we have SoftImage XSI? Yes... We DO!

You see our lead concept artists Father had a copy which we are using for our new anims which are being recorded at the motion capture studio. And also, the Raven programmer Munroe is working on a gla 2 xsi converter so that we have access to all the original humanoid anims.

Do you still want to be "realistic" and say its not possible?

I laugh in the face of ignorance!!!

jipe
07-01-2002, 10:13 AM
Congratulations on your good fortune.. but don't be so dense as to think that your scenario is likely - something like that is in the minority and Emon is talking about the majority. Most people don't have opportunities even close to what you're getting.

Commodus
07-01-2002, 10:47 AM
Sounds promising....

NickR
07-02-2002, 12:48 AM
True. Most mod teams won't have access to a motion capture studio. But SoftImage is a different story.

How many modelers in the online community have 3D Studio Max?
Millions probably! And did they all pay 3k for it. Probably not. Either they borrowed it from work or relatives, or they got a copy illegaly. Now why should this be different for SoftImage?

Emon
07-02-2002, 01:24 AM
Because SoftImage is 1000x harder to warez than 3DSM. 3DSM you can download from anywhere, SoftImage has only been cracked a few times, and it took one person 3 months to do it.

NITEMARE
07-02-2002, 03:45 AM
and even if there are millions with 3dmax, i dont want to know the percentage of the ones that actually can do something with it. the most are just downloading it for prestige so they can say: yah i know 3dstudio, i played sround with it ...
there are few people who can animate models properly. i am not one of those, character animation is still on the must learn list, heh. but then softimage...how many can actually work with it? if they have it. i dont know why it is softimage but i think raven made the stuff with it. they have their reasons mabe, tho cant imagine any for now. the future of jk2 moding wil not have any new animations. mabe in the far future...

Emon
07-02-2002, 03:49 AM
They used SoftImage so the animations would be so damn smooth, and so they could use motion captured ones instead of the crappy Q3 animations.

Mr_Dandy
07-03-2002, 07:18 AM
(seriously)
Emon is right, don't get mad at him, he speaks the truth!

At the moment SP TCs are impossible, SP MODs are extremely limited, unless Raven and LA decide to release the SP SDK. However Valve took about 1 year before they released the Half-Life SP SDK to the public.. So if you do believe LA/Raven are generous companies which want to have happy customers (/me giggles), give them till next spring but no longer. Your life/time/talent is much more valuable and can be productive elsewhere.

Design your MOD/TC believing that the SP SDK will be available sometime next spring. Then when next spring rolls around and the SDK is no where to be seen. Take all "your" (not raven's) best work and add it to your profolio. Thus you are not at a total loss.

Or better yet concentrate on your current education and putting more effort in your studies so you can graduate Magna Cum Laude. That looks a lot better on your resume at job interviews than a bunch of data files from your 1/5th semi complete TC.


Mr. Dandy
--------------------------------
I used to be Dandy now..
Now I'm not so Dandy...

Emon
07-03-2002, 10:03 AM
Thanks for your support guys.

DireTan
07-03-2002, 10:50 AM
Click click click Look mommy I made a post..

volrathxp
07-03-2002, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Mr_Dandy
(seriously)
Emon is right, don't get mad at him, he speaks the truth!

At the moment SP TCs are impossible, SP MODs are extremely limited, unless Raven and LA decide to release the SP SDK. However Valve took about 1 year before they released the Half-Life SP SDK to the public.. So if you do believe LA/Raven are generous companies which want to have happy customers (/me giggles), give them till next spring but no longer. Your life/time/talent is much more valuable and can be productive elsewhere.

Design your MOD/TC believing that the SP SDK will be available sometime next spring. Then when next spring rolls around and the SDK is no where to be seen. Take all "your" (not raven's) best work and add it to your profolio. Thus you are not at a total loss.

Or better yet concentrate on your current education and putting more effort in your studies so you can graduate Magna Cum Laude. That looks a lot better on your resume at job interviews than a bunch of data files from your 1/5th semi complete TC.


Mr. Dandy
--------------------------------
I used to be Dandy now..
Now I'm not so Dandy...

good points. sp sdk won't be released until ID decides to release the q3 engine code, seeing as how the sp code is tied to the exe with the engine code itself so releasing it would mean releasing the engine code.

Emon is right too: Softimage's protection system is so well put together it's extremely tough to crack.

Emon
07-03-2002, 12:40 PM
Actually, the SP code is in jk2gamex86.dll, ID doesn't have to release engine code for LEC to release the SP code.

RJY33
07-03-2002, 01:12 PM
Heres an easy link for (nothing)...http://www.yahoo.com all you need is edonkey... by the way trinity is a warez RELEASE group, not a single person. They crack for the community so this program is easily available to anyone who can operate edonkey. They have done the cracking for you, still tough to learn the program though I assume.

volrathxp
07-03-2002, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Emon
Actually, the SP code is in jk2gamex86.dll, ID doesn't have to release engine code for LEC to release the SP code.

oop.... sorry heheh

Joben
07-03-2002, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by Monder
Dunno how qvm's actually work. I would reackon they're a modified dll. If they're not and they're like java classes then yes a decompile would be greatly simplified. Though sp code is in a dll and all the mp code is in qvm. So there's no point in decompiling qvm's. We already have the source

Yes...and of course distributing modified .dll s violates the licence aggrement :(
I cant think of any way around that. I would imagine that if anyone wanted
they could make a mod for their personal use but its distribution that is illegal.
...Hmm I wonder what LEC would think of discusions of HOW to make it yourself.


However:
"Anger, Fear, Aggresion, the Dark Side are they!" Dont get too pissed at the lack of a SP SDK just yet. :D

Mr Dandy is prob right. Give them some time and ocasinaly politely remind
then that we want it and they will likely release it eventualy. (I hope.)

jipe
07-04-2002, 12:03 AM
Actually, the SP code is in jk2gamex86.dll

I know people have said that, but.. what? Are they assembly masters? Besides, the DLL is linked to the exe, so you'd need stuff from the exe..

Monder
07-04-2002, 01:40 AM
I know people have said that, but.. what? Are they assembly masters? Besides, the DLL is linked to the exe, so you'd need stuff from the exe..

Well what else would the dll be there for? The quake engine is well known for having actual game code(weapons, gametypes etc) in an dll or a qvm. Oh and you don't need bits of the exe code cause every other quake based game's sdk is just code for the dll or qvm.

jipe
07-04-2002, 02:19 AM
Except for the part about James Monroe saying the reason they couldn't release it was because it was tied to the .exe.

Of course, maybe that is just a load of crap, and they don't want us to have it. Doesn't matter to me - the SP mod ideas I had are on the backburner, and instead I'm focusing on the SP levels that I can do with what we have. Once I'm done with those, I'll probably take a look at Unreal2; its scripting is supposed to be insanely powerful, and the game is SP only.

Emon
07-04-2002, 04:11 AM
I wouldn't trust anyone at Raven other than Gummelt. Kenn Hoekstra told me I need the SP SDK, source code, and a 3D modeler to make new NPCs! LOL!

sithlord-II
07-04-2002, 04:42 AM
actually emon that is technically true. if you create a completely new model with its own NPC reference lines instead of replacing an existing NPC, it does nto work correctly. Their saber will spawn in their crotch, or the gun will. either way they will only use a blaster.
and a good deal of the other guys at raven are quite good, too, so don't write them off like that.

Emon
07-04-2002, 05:19 AM
Yeah, but he gave me a link to what he said was "the source code and SDK".

skew
07-04-2002, 07:17 AM
Im pretty sure you just misunderstood him.

NickR
07-04-2002, 08:33 AM
Emon, stop your blathering, and quit pissing people off!

NITEMARE
07-04-2002, 08:42 AM
hmm i think he is quite right most of the time. and the people who are pissed should change their pants...

volrathxp
07-04-2002, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by RJY33
Heres an easy link for SoftImage XSI 2.0...http://www.filenexus.com/releases.php?id=5...and all you need is edonkey... by the way trinity is a warez RELEASE group, not a single person. They crack for the community so this program is easily available to anyone who can operate edonkey. They have done the cracking for you, still tough to learn the program though.

1: Raven used SoftImage XSI 3.0 I believe.

2: Posting warez links in public forum = Really dumb

3: Posting dead warez links in a public forum = sure to piss a lot of people off

my .02

VIO
07-04-2002, 09:32 AM
im im new to the coding forums but, i must say i think emons right, thers nothing wrong if being realistic, and i can under stand that ppl don't like to be told that they have very little chance of doing something but sometimes its the truth, you can't always do everything

Joben
07-04-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by volrathxp

2: Posting warez links in public forum = Really dumb

3: Posting dead warez links in a public forum = sure to piss a lot of people off

my .02

No kidding, that will get you banned with no warnings or prior infractions in a lot of places.

volrathxp
07-04-2002, 01:36 PM
yes it can. bye bye RJY33 :p

Emon
07-04-2002, 03:50 PM
I just hope you realize that that link was complete BS, the download didn't work AT ALL.

RJY33
07-04-2002, 05:26 PM
It is not a direct link guys. Its the edonkey link. That means if you have the edonkey prgram the link will set up the file for you and begin downloading. Like any webpage just has softimage ready to download off it! Get a clue before you start screaming about dead links and warez...

volrathxp
07-05-2002, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by RJY33
It is not a direct link guys. Its the edonkey link. That means if you have the edonkey prgram the link will set up the file for you and begin downloading. Like any webpage just has softimage ready to download off it! Get a clue before you start screaming about dead links and warez...

yeah but that kind of is warez... so :p

Emon
07-05-2002, 02:57 PM
Hmm, I also read an article about edonkey being a virus. Not really worth downloading a virus infected version of SI 2 now is it?

RJY33
07-05-2002, 03:43 PM
Like all file sharing programs it is possible to download a virus. The program is not a virus rest assured. If you use the widespread link i posted you will get a perfect working copy, no viruses since if you modify the filename it is no longer part of the link. Going on edonkey and just serching other softimage filenames may yield viruses so i wouldnt do that. As long as you use links from the two major edonkey linking sites then you will be just fine. If its such a worry any good virus scanner will pick up the virus before it does any damage. Im not trying to prove anything im just givin the facts.

NITEMARE
07-05-2002, 04:17 PM
i have edonkey too fore some reasons and can asure u that its a pain in the ass but worth the time if u get into it. however i cant understand why this guy is still on the forum telling people how to get a warez version of an expensive 3d program...

RJY33
07-05-2002, 04:19 PM
Im not telling peope to go get it, just giving the info, I personally dont have it but saw the link, which is not the direct link to the file, so you cant get the file form there, it was just an FYI since people seem to be confused about the amount of people that have access to this program.

volrathxp
07-06-2002, 10:10 AM
unfortunately it's the not the version Raven used :p