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Darth Windu
07-10-2002, 02:57 PM
Ok, now most of will know that i really, really, really, really, really (you get the idea) want the Republic Gunship as a second Republic Unique Unit. I think this would make the Republic most unique as a civ, and alter gameplay and lead to the development of new tactics by people playing as or against the Republic. Even though the majotiy of people surveyed about this issue want the gunship as the second UU, there has been bitter opposition by two members of this forum, although at least one (and i hope both) seem's willing to negotiate on the issue. I have therefore decided to come up with this post to see what the community would want, as per the poll. As always, discussion/debate ion this issue (and only this issue) is welcomed.

DarthmaulUK - i would like this to be the only Gunship thread by me on the board. So i ask if you could either close or delete the other's i have created about the Gunship issue.

stormtroop
07-10-2002, 03:08 PM
I would prefear the gunship as a cht myself.but what your saying is right the republic gunship is unique and its home place is with its civisilation and you shouldnt have to enter a cht code to get it.the gunship ifi t comes out shouldhopefully have a awesome cannon and hold over 5 troops.But if lucasarts bring out the republic troops which they have then they must bring out the republic gunship as whats the troops without there gunship.

simwiz2
07-11-2002, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
Ok, now most of will know that i really, really, really, really, really (you get the idea) want the Republic Gunship as a second Republic Unique Unit.
In other words you are obsessed.

Even though the majotiy of people surveyed about this issue want the gunship as the second UU
The key words are "of people surveyed", or those that bothered to enter the thread and vote. Think vocal minorities. I have already explained this many times, there is no need for me to explain it here. Plus, looking at this poll, you are the only one to have voted for the gunship as a UU. Seems the toybox idea (which I voted for) is the more popular one. And do you honestly think you will get a fair vote and run into much opposition anyway on your fourth thread about it? Only those who really want the gunship to be a UU will bother to vote at all, with a few exceptions.

there has been bitter opposition by two members of this forum,
Me and Sith? It's the bitter opposition of the voice of reason. The two of the many against the idea who bothered to post against it. Besides, someone has to keep your imagination in check.

although at least one (and i hope both) seem's willing to negotiate on the issue.
Sith willing to negotiate?!? ROFLMAO!! Why? He probably took the "windu=stupid" out because he didnt want you running to daddy about it like you probably did with my signature. OTOH, I am willing to negotiate on the issue and think the gunship could be a toybox unit. That is as far as I would compromise.

I have therefore decided to come up with this post to see what the community would want, as per the poll. As always, discussion/debate ion this issue (and only this issue) is welcomed. Congratulations, your fourth gunship-related thread, plus one started by someone else that you attempted to turn into a flame war. And your second gunship poll!


DarthmaulUK - i would like this to be the only Gunship thread by me on the board. So i ask if you could either close or delete the other's i have created about the Gunship issue.
LoL, are you sure you don't just want your "pearls of stupidity" to be permanently buried?

simwiz2
07-11-2002, 01:31 AM
stormtrooper: 5 troopers + awesome cannon = overpowered, plus it overshadows the air cruiser and the transport. a unit like that would have to be limited to the toybox and a cheat code.

Kryllith
07-11-2002, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by simwiz2
Me and Sith? It's the bitter opposition of the voice of reason. The two of the many against the idea who bothered to post against it. Besides, someone has to keep your imagination in check.
Ummm, not to knock on you, but if you're going to argue that Windu has to limit the supporters of his idea to those that voted, then you ALSO have to follow the same limitations. Just because someone didn't bother to vote or post does not automatically put them as one of the "many against the idea."

Kryllith

simwiz2
07-11-2002, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by Kryllith

Ummm, not to knock on you, but if you're going to argue that Windu has to limit the supporters of his idea to those that voted, then you ALSO have to follow the same limitations. Just because someone didn't bother to vote or post does not automatically put them as one of the "many against the idea."

Kryllith

No, I agree that just because they did not bother to vote doesn't mean that they are against the idea. They could be indifferent, or they could have not seen the thread. But most likely, if somone is for the idea and has seen the thread they will want to see the idea acted upon and will vote and/or post yes. If there was a poll and 100 people see it, and there are 20 votes yes, and 10 votes no, then it would look like the majority is for the idea when it is probably not so. Of the 70 that saw the thread and ignored it, they are likely either indifferent or against it. Those against it will think "they won't change it anyway why bother" and those indifferent simply won't care enough to vote. However, very few people who liked the idea would look at the thread for the idea and not bother voting. A more accurate poll would have to get those who are not voting to take interest and vote. If a poll started by someone from Lucasarts was called "Considering adding Gunship UU for Republic, want community opinion!" then the results would probably be different. People who hadnt bothered before would suddenly realize that the idea might actually be added, and hurriedly vote no.

Darth Windu
07-11-2002, 04:16 PM
simwiz - if you have something constructive to post about the gunship and the options in the poll, i welcome your views. If not, please stay off this thread.

CorranSec
07-11-2002, 04:48 PM
Uhhh... hello people.
Sorry to disrupt your little.. fight, but I'd like to offer my opinion.
I've gone through a whole bunch of Windu's threads on this topic, and I've figured out some stuff.
This may already have been covered but i got here late...
1. It's wrong to have the "gunship" as the Republic fighter... the very name "Gunship" shows that it would be far stronger than a fighter.
2. It should be a unique unit, but maybe consider it tech 4 like the a-wing.
3. It should be able to transport a couple of units, say 5.
4. It should have dual attack- has been done before, game engine should handle it, i don't know much about programming but surely it could be done. Even if the weapon is the same, that's ok i guess.
5. It should be weaker (in HP terms) than the transport and slower than the fighter, otherwise both would be outdated.
6. Its air to air attack should be far weaker than its air to ground attack, but not sooo bad it is overlooked.
7. Its air to ground attack should be specialized vs. troopers. That's basically what it did in the movie- mowed down hordes of droids. I think.
I agree that it should be a UU- i really like it- but don't overpower it or as simwiz said, it'll screw up the entire carefully made balance.

Darth Windu
07-11-2002, 04:58 PM
Corran - there is no fight going on here, and i hope it stays that way. Most of your points are what i have been saying all along, the gunship is nothing like a fighter, and if it is in the game, it should be a unique unit due to it being unique (no peer).

CorranSec
07-11-2002, 05:02 PM
OK. That's good.
Sooo...... is there anything you/we can DO about this? Contact Lucas Arts, or something? Or is it just a nice idea?

Kryllith
07-11-2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by simwiz2
If a poll started by someone from Lucasarts was called "Considering adding Gunship UU for Republic, want community opinion!" then the results would probably be different. People who hadnt bothered before would suddenly realize that the idea might actually be added, and hurriedly vote no.
Certainly, though it could hold true for the other end of the spectrum as well. People who don't really worry about voting might decide that if LucasArts is reading this and seriously considering making the change that they might vote for it. I think it might be an interesting unique unit, though I think that if implimentation were made that the original reb air transport might be modified a little (either in the amount of things it can carry or what it can carry). BTW, I haven't voted. ;)

Course, if it were added as a cheat unit, then I'd probably just go ahead and make it make the overboard gunship that people talked about before (carries 10 units, numerous individual-targeting lasers, etc.) We're talking about cheating here after all. :)

Kryllith

Darth Windu
07-12-2002, 02:59 PM
Come on people, i know there are more than 7 people on the forum.

CorranSec
07-12-2002, 03:11 PM
Yes, there are.
Windu, could you... um... answer my earlier question please? That was only a couple of posts back... i can't believe it was completely over looked... anyway, i'm wondering:
is there anything you are going to do about this? Contact Lucas Arts, or something? Or is it just a nice idea?
And... would it help if i rated this thread? 5 stars? maybe then people would come. ;)

Darth Windu
07-12-2002, 03:23 PM
I emailed lucasarts about another subject a while ago and didnt get a response, so im hoping that a lucasarts rep will visit this thread and see what the community wants. Also, i dont think rating it will do much, but go ahead, cant hurt.

CorranSec
07-12-2002, 03:33 PM
Mhmm.... problem is, we don't really represent what 'the community' wants. Sure, of the... 7 people who have voted, the majority want it as a UU (that would be you, me and somebody else) but we don't represent the majority of all GB CC players, let alone all people on this forum.
We need more publicity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(how do we do that?)

nathan26
07-12-2002, 08:10 PM
I think the gunship is fine the way it is, if u want to complain about stuff in the game not being like the movies then you should also mention that snowspeeders don't use toecables, mechs shoot the wrong colored lasers and the rebel workers look like r2-d2 when they are supposed to be r2-d5 or something like that. Even if they did make the gunship as the 2nd UU, what would you have as the fighter for the Republic? The way Lucasarts has done it seems like the best way to me.

simwiz2
07-12-2002, 11:12 PM
Hmmm... 42.857% want the gunship as a UU... Windu and 2 other people :p popular movement? :rolleyes:

42% and I don't even think sith has even voted yet... I think he would have at least posted something. Now that I think of it he hasn't posted anything lately... maybe his internet managed to go down again.

Many people seem quite contented with the game as it is, and think the Gunship would provide a sufficient realism quality if it was added as a toybox or cheat unit. Exactly what Sith has been saying from the start.

Also the Gunship's representation as a fighter is quite realistic. Fighters provide air and ground cover fire for their troops. With the exception of carrying the troops, Gunships were doing just that, giving cover fire for the troops. Gunship seems too strong to be reduced to a feeble fighter? Think of it as losing its gains in strength and firepower as reduced maneouverability and being a bigger target.

And the icing on the cake of making the Gunship a toybox unit is that they can make a REAL Gunship, not some crap unit that no one will ever use and is a mere shadow of the real Gunship. As a UU the Gunship will be cut to bits for balance, and have the bits jammed in as a pointless unit; as a toybox unit realisitic but overpowered ideas could be used. If anyone wants realism, the toybox/cheat version of the Gunship will be much more realistic than any UU incarnation.

Kryllith
07-12-2002, 11:32 PM
Of course, instead of making it a unique unit, we could simply give the current fighter the ability to carry troops (kinda a perk to their civ, like the ATAT's ability to fire at air) and then downgrade the rep's transport. Granted this is primarily just a restating of what I said before, the difference being that I always considered making the gunship a seperate unit from fighters.

CorranSec
07-13-2002, 05:43 AM
Hmmmm. Simwiz has a point- as a toybox unit, the Gunship could be anything we liked without disrupting game balance.
But an in-game version would be more fun- after all, Windu, two other people, and I want to use the gunship in a normal RM or DM, and in the campaigns. I think it would improve the game experience all-round.
Maybe you could have 2 versions, one in-game that wasn't so powerful, and one toybox that is everything it was in the movie.

Darth Windu
07-13-2002, 11:40 AM
simwiz - its still a majority.

nathan - think about this. Would you have said that the snowspeeder should be a rebel unique unit if it was the rebel fighter?

A new idea: having a discussion with another member on another thread, a member came u with a good idea. Given the Republic the gunship as a second UU, but change their transport to the gunship transport that drops off an AT-TE in ep2, and make it so it can only carry 2 or 3 units, instead of the normal 5. This would make the gunship balanced by giving them a powerful ground attack with troop transport ability, but decrease their mech/heavy transport ability. This would also enhance the republics area of speciality, troopers.

CorranSec
07-13-2002, 11:56 AM
Hey, I remember someone saying that. But we've already discussed the 2-3 units idea here.
Wouldn't it be weird if the UU and the transport looked practically the same, though?
And the Gunship UU supporters now total 5. Yay! :D

Nathan- we're only discussing one thing here. You're the one who brought up those picky little things.

Darth Windu
07-13-2002, 12:11 PM
Well they wouldn't look the same. The gunship transport would look like a futuristic CH-47 or CH-54, while the gunship looks like a futuristic Mi-24. Either way you would be able to tell the difference.

CorranSec
07-13-2002, 12:43 PM
Oh. That's a relief.

simwiz2
07-13-2002, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
simwiz - its still a majority.

I am assuming (and hoping) that you say this because the poll changed at one point and then changed again (right now you are in the minority). If you said you have the majority because the UU choice had (at the time) more votes than all the other options combined, then ignore the rest of my post. If not, then:

You do realize that just because the UU option has the longest bar of the 4 options does not make it the majority. ALL of the other options, cheat unit, toybox unit, no unit, are against having it as the UU. Just because the opposition is split among 3 options and therefore the UU has the most votes out of one option does not mean the UU has the majority. If we are looking at it as UU vs not UU then I think it is safe to say that all three other options are NO's. So it is 5/11, or 45%, for the Gunship UU. Hopefully you realized this and were claiming the majority because you truly had it at the time. If you were then ignore this paragraph of my post.

Darth Windu
07-14-2002, 12:33 PM
simwiz - i said that there was (and still is) a majority who have voted for the gunship as the second UU, not an absolute majority, there is a difference. Also, i said before, keep it related to the subject, and dont attack other members in this forum.

simwiz2
07-14-2002, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
simwiz - i said that there was (and still is) a majority who have voted for the gunship as the second UU

So if I were to create a poll about something with one yes (5 votes) and 5 different No's (3 votes each) then the yes would be clearly popular? I don't think so. If you would now claim the Gunship has majority without considering that all the other options are all NO FOR THE UU then all your poll proves is that you can manipulate the choices to color the results in your favor. Is that why you made 4 options instead of 2? Other options... Toybox, hmm that sounds like they don't want it as a UU, cheat unit same, don't want it as a UU any more than the Death Star is an empire UU. And the not at all is just, no.

Also, i said before, keep it related to the subject, and dont attack other members in this forum.

I don't remember attacking you in that post, so unless you are trying to dig up some long-ago post I have no idea what you are talking about. And you really shouldn't be talking about attacking other members:

So sithmatser, you cant win an argument, and the community obviously disagrees with you on both of these issues, so you go running to daddy to get them deleted?
Which in case you didn't realise was why he attacked you in the Gunship thread, and also prompted me to get into the argument in the first place. Wait - there's more...

...i suggest you take up reading lessons.

Also, ignore simwiz, he likes to make up things that he will then use a 'quote' from you, besides he's opposed to the terrefic gunship idea."
Which btw is beyond lame - ignore him he is against this idea. How about "ignore Windu he is against common sense and gameplay."

I know you are trying to promote your "good guy being mercilessly picked on by the meanies"image, but you are really just being a hypocrite, as has been said already by at least one other member.

Darth Windu
07-14-2002, 01:36 PM
*sigh* let me explain the concept of majority.
majority - when you have a greater number of votes than any other individual option.

absolute majority - when you have more than 50% of all votes.

now simwiz - STAY OFF THIS THREAD. I have alsked you twice to post only things that are relevant to the topic, and twice you have ignored me, for which there is no excuse. If you want to argue with me or anyone else, do it in a special thread. As i previously said, if you want to post something constructive about this idea, go ahead, but you dont, so stay away.

J-5
07-14-2002, 10:52 PM
OMG :eek: !!! Why are we still talking about the Republic Gunship!! Making 50 threads about the gunship isn't going to make it suddenly appear in the game.

FYI, I voted no to a new gunship. It is already in the game, so live with it. If it is moved, then what will the republic fighter-adv. fighter be. They had to use the gunship there, it the only fighter we see the Republic use in the movies.

simwiz2
07-14-2002, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
*sigh* let me explain the concept of majority.
majority - when you have a greater number of votes than any other individual option.
absolute majority - when you have more than 50% of all votes.
*sigh* let me explain that as long as less than half have voted for the UU, then the majority of people polled think it should not be a UU. If they voted for toybox they think it should not be a UU. If they voted for cheat then they think it should not be a UU. If they voted for not at all then they think it should not be a UU.

now simwiz - STAY OFF THIS THREAD. I have alsked you twice to post only things that are relevant to the topic, and twice you have ignored me, for which there is no excuse.
Let's get one thing clear, okay? I post where I like to post. I go into whatever threads I like to go into. I don't know who you think you are if you expect me to listen to you telling me where I can and cannot post. And what the community thinks of this idea is kind of is relevant, because its about this idea's success or failure.

If you want to argue with me or anyone else, do it in a special thread. As i previously said, if you want to post something constructive about this idea, go ahead, but you dont, so stay away.
If I want to argue against this idea and whether the community wants it I will do so in the idea's thread. Is all opposition not constructive? Afraid that people will read my posts and see how much nonsense the idea is? Do you attempt to silence the opposition by telling them to get out?

And like I said before, if one would claim the Gunship UU to be popularly wanted based on the current results, then the poll only shows how results can be colored - split up the opposition and say "hey look the one real YES has a longer bar, cool!"

Summary of Gunship UU idea:
*No place for it in gameplay
*Will either be useless itself or make other unit(s) useless
*It is NOT a recon asset :)
*Republic is already a very strong civ, no need for it
*Unless overpowered, the Gunship UU will be nothing like the movie, taking away the reason to change it in the first place
*Toybox Gunship could be much more realistic
*2 troopers and AA turret food will NOT influence a battle much
*Of the ideas suggested, most were either overpriced bomber-transports or overpowered super air cruiser transports.
*Curent fighter incarnation is realistic because Gunships were used exactly like fighters in the movie.

Darth Windu
07-15-2002, 01:26 PM
Reasons why the Gunship should be a second UU-
1. Make the game more realistic
2. Alter gameplay
3. Show the gunship the way it should be
4. The Gunship is unique
5. New strategy's for the Republic
6. New Strategy's for people fighting the Republic
7. I'm sure lucasarts can balance it
8. its not a fighter!!!!!

J-5 - actually this is the only current thread, and ITS NOT A FIGHTER.

Simwiz - just looking at three of your points.
"*Toybox Gunship could be much more realistic" - then vote for the toybox gunship.

"*Curent fighter incarnation is realistic because Gunships were used exactly like fighters in the movie." - no, they are used as assault helicopter's in the movie, even the ep2 producers said it was based on a helicopter.

"*Of the ideas suggested, most were either overpriced bomber-transports or overpowered super air cruiser transports." - its not up to us, the final stats would be done by the talented staff over at lucasarts.

Either way the thing goes, at the moment, 75% of people surveyed want the gunship to reflect it's true abilities, wether its a cheat, a UU or a toybox unit. I would be happy with any of those three.

simwiz2
07-15-2002, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu

(1)then vote for the toybox gunship.

(2)no, they are used as assault helicopter's in the movie, even the ep2 producers said it was based on a helicopter.

(3) its not up to us, the final stats would be done by the talented staff over at lucasarts.

(4)Either way the thing goes, at the moment, 75% of people surveyed want the gunship to reflect it's true abilities, wether its a cheat, a UU or a toybox unit. I would be happy with any of those three.

1 - I did.

2 - It is the closest thing to a republic fighter that I saw used in ep2, and in use (not appearance) Starfighters are much more unique than the Gunship.

3 - But many general ideas have been stated, and all have been found faulty. If those who want the idea to begin with cannot think of an idea for it then I don't think LucasArts will try.

4 - You may be willing to accept a cheat/toybox, but the cheat/toybox is not what you have been trying to get - in most of your posts you argue for the UU - and only 38.46% want it as the UU, 61.54% don't want it as the UU. Of course there is a majority for the Gunship in general - because it would be hard for people to find fault with a toybox unit that will have no negative effect on game balance at all.

MIK8454
07-16-2002, 11:00 AM
here r some ideas

1. get rid of the jedi starfighter and replace it with the gunship, and make up a new fighter, they did t with some of the othe civs

2. keep the starfighter, and make the gunship unique, nd make up new fighters

3. keep it how it is

4. make the jedi starfighter the republic fighter, and the gunship the UU

i personally would pick 1., but thats just because that would fit my playing style best, considering i dont much liek the jedi starfighter, since it doesnt go with my playing style, and i generally dont care baout other people playing styles, im only considering mine here, so if LA wants to please me, they can do that, but i dont know about everyone else, LA can figure that out on their own, cus it seems not man people r on this thread

Darth Windu
07-17-2002, 11:10 AM
simwiz - yes, i do want the gunship as a UU, but if the only way to get it is in the toybox, i'll accept it. I know that there was no other Republic fighter shown, which is a pain in the butt, which is why i would want this to be changed if there is a SW:GB 2. Reason being that i would want SW:GB 2 to be created after episode 3 is released, so there would be all of the material in there, and hopefully a republic fighter to take the gunship's place.

Kryllith
07-17-2002, 11:16 AM
Of course there weren't any gungan fighters, rebel assault mechs, wookie vehicles of any time... in the movies. I imagine there were probably various sketched version of the gunship and jedi starfighter that didn't make the cut that could be used as the Republic fighter...

Kryllith

Darth Windu
07-17-2002, 11:36 AM
kyllith - while that could be done, i relaise that the Gunship has about a 1% chance of being changed in SW:GB. That, and the hope of a new Republic Fighter, is why i said that if there is a SW:GB 2, it should be after episode 3 is released.

eizo131
07-18-2002, 02:31 AM
The gunship should be the UU, and the Jedi starfighter the republic fighter. Lucas arts could put in a patch........:atat:

simwiz2
07-19-2002, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by eizo131
The gunship should be the UU, and the Jedi starfighter the republic fighter. Lucas arts could put in a patch........:atat:


I happen to like the starfighter, and would be infuriated (as I believe many others would also be) if they removed one of the most fun UU's in the game. How can you not love sitting above a fortress surrounded by AA turrets and mobiles and fighters, getting valuable recon while laughing that if they only could see you they have enough firepower to completely destroy 20X the unit instantly? Or using the super-fast unit to hit and run their workers in T3, and using its stealth to kill their mining outposts in T4?

And as I have already said the Starfighter is more unique than the Gunship. The Gunship was used as a fighter, the Starfighter was not.

I see no reason why the Republic should be so downgraded (yes, it would be downgraded) to lose its useful and specialised UU for a useless bomber-transport.

Darth Windu
07-19-2002, 04:35 PM
simwiz - i find that very hard to believe. Look at the movies, and then compare the Jedi Starfighter to the X-wing, and then the Gunship to the X-wing, i think you will see my point. However, it is a moot point anyway, they should BOTH be Republic unique units, ans they are both...unique. However i think that if the gunship is made as a UU, it should get the rockets (different weapon, just same animation) while the Jedi Starfighter should get standard fighter weapons, but keep it's jedi upgrades.

CorranSec
07-20-2002, 01:47 PM
I think what we are suggesting is that the Gunship becomes the second Republic UU. In the same way as the A-Wing is the second Rebel UU.
Jedi Starfighter should stay the same.... it's been done the way it is for a reason, and that reason is called Game Balance. i like it. I'm irritated by the delay before firing, but I know that without that Game Balance would severely suffer.
Imagine- Jedi Starfighter with fighter weapons. A pack of them fly into an enemy base cloaked. They fire at an AA turret, then stop firing- cannot be hit by missiles or other fighters. This could be repeated and would make the Starfighter absolutely and totally overpowered.
Jedi Starfighter wouldn't work as a Republic normal fighter either. Starfighters are unique, elite, etc. Therefore, they are a UU.

I really wonder what the responses would be if the poll was simply:
1. Republic Gunship as the second Republic UU
2. Republic Gunship stays as it is

Also, a little nit-picking thing, but the people who voted "I don't want the Gunship at all" clearly want a new Republic fighter. ;)
This poll is getting weird because the actual poll choices are getting a bit cloudy, thanks to simwiz's expert muddling of the issue.
No offense.

Darth Windu
07-20-2002, 01:59 PM
Actually the last option was supposed to be for people who wanted it left as it is, i just didnt word it very well. Also, because i cant edit the poll, i cant change it.

simwiz2
07-20-2002, 10:30 PM
This poll is getting weird because the actual poll choices are getting a bit cloudy, thanks to simwiz's expert muddling of the issue.

Poll Choices:
2nd UU (for the UU)
Toybox (against the UU)
Cheat (against the UU)
None (against the UU)

7/17 want the UU (41.18%)
14/17 want some kind of gunship (82.35%)
7/17 want a cheat/toybox gunship (41.18%)
10/17 are against a UU (58.82%)
3/17 dont want any gunship (17.65%)

and for some more expert muddling...
17/17 chose one of the 4 options (100%)
0/17 who voted chose no option (0%)
17/17 who voted saw this thread (100%)
17/17 who voted have some way to get on the internet (100%)

:)

CorranSec
07-21-2002, 05:17 AM
LOL! LOL! LOL! :rofl:
Ahh, simwiz, tis a pity we're not on the same side. You're an expert wordsmith. It takes a trained and sharp mind- such as my own (a :bdroid2: mind)- to notice that the last four didn't mean anything at all. :p

On the topic of percentages-
17/252 of the people who came here voted (6.746%)
Therefore, 235/252 of the people who came here didn't vote. (93.254%)
Lazy bums. :mob: Me blue, you red. You die. Die!
9 people have actually posted something in this thread. 3.57% of 252.
Assuming those 9 people voted, if they didn't, it's :rifle1: for you, 52.94% of people who voted had something to say about the issue.
The other 8 people who voted but didn't post (47.06%)- I am disgusted. you're not lazy enough to just look and leave, but you couldn't even have the courtesy to say who you are and what you voted for!
bah. :evil6:

Now I want to see some changes here! On the double!
You there! Vote vote vote!
And you! Lose some weight!

Darth Windu
07-26-2002, 12:56 AM
Gunship is more like the X-wing than the Jedi Starfighter???? What the hell have you been smoking?

The Jedi Starfighter we dont know much about, because we havent really seen it do anything, but from what we have seen it is very similar to the X-wing in that it is a fighter, one pilot etc very much like today's F-15. The Republic Gunship is not a fighter, it is like todays' Russian MiL Mi-24 'Hind' helicopter gunship. I suggest you look those two pieces of equipment up on the internet and compare them, they are nothing alike. Also go and ask anyone who works for the USAF or any other air force in the world full-time and ask them, i can assure you they will agree with me.

HOWEVER as i have already said, i know it wont be changed for SW:GB which is why i want it for the possible SW:GB 2. I'm sure that if it was put into the game to show its true abilities from the start, there wouldn't be any problems.

CorranSec
07-26-2002, 01:55 AM
Hello, Sith. I don't know you, but I've heard of you. You're rather infamous, mainly from the statements "one who is willing to negotiate" and "What the! Sith!? Negotiate!?"
Or some such.
Having joined this debate (I use the term 'debate' loosely), I expect I will be seeing lots of you now. Though I am unsure whether that is good or bad. :confused:

Me? Child? Blessed?
Why? and that was a very old post.

I think the UU is tied for longest bar. Things keep changing.

What's back? I missed all the other threads/polls/etc/etc/insults/flame wars/etc/vicious debates/etc.

Personally I think the Gunship would be superior to the X-Wing.. it is, after all, a Gunship, with many Guns, or... um... you know what i mean!
Gunships are bigger (err, ok, maybe bigger) better armed, more destructive, AND owned by a different civ than the X-Wing.
I'm especially proud of thinking of that last one. :)
The X-Wing is a one-man fighter which, though armed with torpedoes, countermeasures, etc. cannot use any of them in the game, has only a pair of rather weak laser cannons to use. Obviously far weaker than the Gunships that we saw destroying platoons of droids, mechs, rocketships, Battleship Cores, etc.

Even though the proposed gunship won't be quite that powerful, we should all realise that the currect Gunship is nothing like the canon gunship in any terms. Other than looks, anyway.

Jedi Starfighter is incredibly different to them both, but it's hardto compare the proposed gunship to it. It has a different role, different abilities, etc. etc.

Le moi? Retarded? Mesa not retarded... Mesa spake! Mesa Jaja binkz, anyway! .... okey-day, maybe mesa retarded.
Ok, if you all wish to come to my house, we could have this debate in person. 'Course, if you don't live in the wonderful land of Oz, that might be a trifle difficult...

I'm your mom? Oh! My long lost son! You've... uh... changed a bit. Little Johnny wasn't a Sith.... :p

Edit: I just noticed your sig. Some more lovely tree-falling stuff:

"If a tree falls in the forest... I'll kill the bastard what done it!"
- Jaheira, Baldur's Gate character.
"If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody was around to hear it....
What colour was it?"
- Herman Toothrot, The Secret of Monkey Island.

Darth Windu
07-26-2002, 06:13 AM
sithmaster - by 'negotiate' i was referring to one of your previous comments that indicated you would support changing the Gunship to represent its abilitesi better, as a cheat unit i believe.

Everyone - please do not turn this into a Jedi Starfighter vs Republic Gunship debate. They should BOTH be Republic Unique Units, and i would like to see a change to the Starfighter as well, giving it standard fighter weapons.

Sithmaster_821
07-26-2002, 10:22 AM
Sorry if anyone missed me, vacation called and I answered.

In case anyone didnt notice, a quite dull forumer has made yet another poll on the gunship (what are we at now Darthie, 4?. I lost count). If anyone was wondering I voted for my suggestion that I've been championing since the hayday of this idea. Also, Windu, all of your gunship threads remind me of a saying that i heard: arguing over the internet is like competing in the special Olympics, even if you win(or, in your case, lose) you're still retarded.
Mhmm.... problem is, we don't really represent what 'the community' wants. Sure, of the... 7 people who have voted, the majority want it as a UU (that would be you, me and somebody else) but we don't represent the majority of all GB CC players, let alone all people on this forum.
Somebody bless this child!
Either way the thing goes, at the moment, 75% of people surveyed want the gunship to reflect it's true abilities, wether its a cheat, a UU or a toybox unit. I would be happy with any of those three.
Yes, but the majority still dont want the gunship as a UU. Also, look at the poll now, the tribe has spoken, your idea isnt even the longest bar.
SW:GB 2 to be created
Ive got an idea, why dont they make a new RTS on their own engine and instead of having a different looking generic units, they can have different units for each civs so each unit can be representeted properly. And Windu will finally shut his trap because he will have a true blue gunship to cuddle at night. But there is no way to add the gunship it to the actual game as it stands now. Gameplay>Realism, remeber?
Jedi Starfighter to the X-wing, and then the Gunship to the X-wing
I did. The Starfighter is totally unique and the gunship,(in under the atmostsphere combat (most of SWGB) is an X-wing with different weapons. Do you actually think that all those clones in the movie were brought by the gunship?:eek: thats why they had troop landers, Windu.
Now I want to see some changes here! On the double!
Yes, mom!
Darth Windu=stupid
It's baaacccckkkk!!!!!!
although at least one (and i hope both) seem's willing to negotiate on the issue.
Im not willing to negotiate. are you simwiz? Traitor, its to the gullitine with you. Viva la Revolutione! (j/k) I know he was refering to me.

DK_Viceroy
07-28-2002, 01:02 PM
The entire game needs to be rebalanced to make it more like the films giving additional Unique units to every civ like for the galctic empire needs the tie advanced X1 and a unique anti stealth technology of Jedi readers it's what the empire used when it instituted the Jedi purge it should also have it's air cruiser replaced by a star destroyer or Nebulon B frigate The rebel alliance chould Get B-Wings and have reduced trooper costs and a technology Called Undying Faith which would give them extra aromor plus 50 hitpoints and icreased range and more attack points. the wookies should lose sheilding upgrades for fighters and get a unique unit of Tree skimmer a transport that can carry 20 units is increadibly fast and looks like a flying log with a poithed ed with curved wings and should have a unique technology of Fierce Defence making workers twice as strong double hit points. the Royal Naboo should get a unique technology called Artisans which would Double worker build speed and get a uniqu unit of a Royal Defender an equivalent of an assault mech but stronger and cheaper but no ability to carry troops. the gungans should get a Faulmpaset transport able to carry 20 units very fast with mech destroyer type weapons the gungans should also get a trooper bonus against mechs and should have a unique technology of Bubble Wart Projectiles tripiling damgae done by all units to anything mechanicalthe Republic should lose sheilding and some of the aircraft techs because in the film their aircraft don't have sheilds and one of their disadvantages should be a slower fireing rate that is more powerful they should have a unique techology of Genetic Enhancement increasing accuracy of everything by 50 & and get exactly as it comes in the film what you are all arguing about the Gunship it should be 300 carbon and 300 ore build pretty slow carry 10 troops or 5 assault mechs it should have a slow firing rate but when it fires it can target multiple things .The Confederacy should have a Unique technology of Geonosian Intuition increasing accuracy of air craft to always a hit they should get all fighter upgrades but their fighters should build faster but still be more expensive they should get a unique unit of a Solar sailer A.K.A the Poonwoorca 112 Sloop that Dooku uses it should be a very powerful Transport capablke of Carrying 30 troops or 15 mechs be very fast and have good weapons.

simwiz2
07-29-2002, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by DK_Viceroy
The entire game needs to be rebalanced to make it more like the films giving additional Unique units to every civ like for the
(1)galctic empire needs the tie advanced X1 and a unique anti stealth technology of Jedi readers it's what the empire used when it instituted the Jedi purge it should also have it's
(2)air cruiser replaced by a star destroyer or Nebulon B frigate
(3)The rebel alliance chould Get B-Wings and
(3b)have reduced trooper costs and a
(4)technology Called Undying Faith which would give them extra aromor plus 50 hitpoints and icreased range and more attack points.
(5)the wookies should lose sheilding upgrades for fighters and get a unique unit of Tree skimmer a transport that can carry 20 units is increadibly fast and looks like a flying log with a poithed ed with curved wings and should have a unique
(6)technology of Fierce Defence making workers twice as strong double hit points.
(7)the Royal Naboo should get a unique technology called Artisans which would Double worker build speed and get a
(8)uniqu unit of a Royal Defender an equivalent of an assault mech but stronger and cheaper but no ability to carry troops.
(9)the gungans should get a Faulmpaset transport able to carry 20 units very fast with mech destroyer type weapons the gungans should also get a
(10)trooper bonus against mechs and should have a unique technology of Bubble Wart Projectiles tripiling damgae done by all units to anything mechanicalthe
(11)Republic should lose sheilding and some of the aircraft techs because in the film their aircraft don't have sheilds and one of their
(12)disadvantages should be a slower fireing rate that is more powerful they should have a
(13)unique techology of Genetic Enhancement increasing accuracy of everything by 50 & and get exactly as it comes in the film what you are all arguing about
(14)the Gunship it should be 300 carbon and 300 ore build pretty slow carry 10 troops or 5 assault mechs it should have a slow firing rate but when it fires it can target multiple things
(15).The Confederacy should have a Unique technology of Geonosian Intuition increasing accuracy of air craft to always a hit
(16)they should get all fighter upgrades but their fighters should build faster but still be more expensive they should
(17)get a unique unit of a Solar sailer A.K.A the Poonwoorca 112 Sloop that Dooku uses it should be a very powerful Transport capablke of Carrying 30 troops or 15 mechs be very fast and have good weapons.

Okay, 99.9999% of this is so stupid that I don't even know where to begin. I guess I'll endure a few minutes of losing many brain cells to break up this post and warn people WHY nearly every idea in that post is completely idiotic. Thank god you're not a game designer. I still don't know WHY I am wasting my time quoting this mindless ramble and actually trying to form this pseudo-english into readable sentences so I can decipher what he is saying. Guess I want to avoid more stupidity from escaping to the boards.

1 - Why? Empire civ is good enough already.

2 - This is just a cosmetic change. Who the hell cares?

3 - Hope you can find a purpose for B-Wings, and do a better job than was done with the gunship.
3b - Reduced trooper costs? I sure hope you are thinking of what to take away to balance this...

4 - I sincerely hope this is not intended to go on top of the +30 hp they ALREADY get from advanced armor. +80 hitpoints for rebel troopers? What do you have against good games with good balance? Do you want super-rebel troopers to beat the AI on easiest with? Even +50 is completely rediculous.

5 - It will rediculously underpower the wookiee air in general, and don't even get me started on this wooden logskimmer or whatever it's called. Superfast and 20 troops? Treeskimmer rush anyone?

6 - I get the impression you dislike the wookiees and want to make them completely useless. They are losing their good air for a little extra worker defense! So when they are losing because they are useless, at least their workers will last a few seconds longer! :rolleyes:

7 - Is there any reason whatsoever for this?

8 - I think that a uniqu unit that is stronger than an Assault Mech AND cheaper than it, would definately be difficult to balance. The lack of trooper-carrying ability will hardly depower it sufficiently.

9 - Thanks, Natopo! See what you started? Now everyone wants to make rediculously overpowered air units! :p

10 - Fine,guesstripilingIdamgaedoneanymechanicaltheunit sisan ideanottoobadof . :rolleyes: (PS dont try to decipher this it's written in Viceroyian)

11 - And AT-AT's should be invincible to all but airspeeders, right? This game is a GAME and does not have to match the movie perfectly all the time. Republic has strong air in the movies anyway, which is why they have all the air upgrades.

12 - Well your lack of english composition skills makes this line difficult to comprehend, but I see absolutely no reason to have a slower fireeing rate that is more powerful or whatever you are trying to say.

13 - It will be another one of your damn useless techs. Wait a minute... republic is losing their good air just so the occasional repater trooper miss will only occur half as often, while the rebels get either 20 or 50 more hitpoints to their already strong troopers? Please do the world a favor and bang your head into a wall a few times, you could only get smarter.

14 - Sorry, but we DON'T NEED ANY MORE OVERPOWERED AIR CRUSIER SUGGESTIONS ON THIS BOARD. I have already seen enough of those from Windu.

15 - You know, fighters don't miss that often anyway. Useless tech! Next!

16 - So you want to overpower rebels and confederacy, and ruin republic but give them an overpowered air cruiser to compensate? :rolleyes:

17 - Are you by any chance a double login of Natapo? He had a similarly idiotic idea on another of the Gunship threads (hard to remember which one). HERE'S A LITTLE HINT TO ALL THE STUPID PEOPLE OUT THERE: SUPER-FAST HIGH-HP HIGH-CAPACITY TRANSPORTS WITH GOOD WEAPONS ARE OVERPOWERING. Like I said, thank god you are not a game designer.

Kryllith
07-29-2002, 01:13 PM
Laugh, I thought DK_Viceroy wrote that as a joke... I certainly hope he wasn't serious.

Kryllith

simwiz2
07-29-2002, 01:28 PM
No, it was definately serious. It was very specific, and was far too long to just be a joke IMO.

DK_Viceroy
07-29-2002, 02:34 PM
what i said would improve the game not just for one civ but all of them and in it there is a gunship i was 100 % serious how about you give us your suggestions instead of complaining and insulting there is no need to be insulting Do You have any better ideas

Kryllith
07-29-2002, 04:17 PM
I've numerous good ideas, many of which have been stated through various posts over the past several months. As for your ideas, I didn't have a problem with all of them, just some of them. Specifically those that called for a dramatic power boost in the form of a modified or completely new unit. For example, I have a problem with the boost that would make troopers do triple damage to mechs. Grenaders already do quite a bit of damage to mechs, and they should be the only ones that do. Mechs are supposed be more powerful than troopers, but how can they be more powerful if repeater troopers suddenly dish out 3 times the damage against them. Heck, this would fundamentally make strike mechs worthless.

Kryllith

DK_Viceroy
07-30-2002, 05:05 AM
i didn't say anything about boosting repeater trooper attack mechs would be strengthened besides how many people use strike mechs when they can use assault mechs or aircraft the strike mech is rarely used and grenade troopers are nearly never used giving the republic an extra unique unit would be unfair so what i suggested was giving all of them extra unique units to balance it out and make it more realistic because isn't the gunship what you all want well my idea put's it in and keeps the game balanced and for the fierce defence i meant it makes troopers more powerful and makes worker attack similar to that of tropers you know like in AoC the spanish supremacy technology it's similar to that.

Darth Windu
07-30-2002, 07:59 AM
simwiz - i have never said i wanted the air cruiser's stats changed, and i dont. The only thing i want changed is the art used for them, so that, for example, the empire air cruiser would be the Star Destroyer.

Kryllith
07-30-2002, 09:26 AM
Hmmm, ok, you specified that it be Gungan specific, but it's still in there:

"the gungans should also get a trooper bonus against mechs and should have a unique technology of Bubble Wart Projectiles tripiling damgae done by all units to anything mechanical"

But instead of just the troopers getting the triple damage bonus against mechs, it's everything that have getting the damage bonus against mechs. I could see this if the current gungan attack power is downgraded significantly, but not otherwise. The Gungans can already hold their own against the other civs, and they already have a unique bonus by using organics, that of being able to heal everything but mechs and artillery. And yes, I know the idea was to generate major differences between the civs to make them fundamentally different, but it can be done by tweeking what they've already have a bit more, rather than adding superpowers...

Kryllith

simwiz2
07-30-2002, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by DK_Viceroy
i didn't say anything about boosting repeater trooper attack mechs would be strengthened besides how many people use strike mechs when they can use assault mechs or aircraft the strike mech is rarely used and grenade troopers are nearly never used

trying to decipher the viceroyian... okay, u think Strike mechs are useless? And Assault mechs are great? I think you have it backwards. Assault mechs are easily countered and expensive. Strike mechs are fast and cheap. Grenade troopers? Very good if someone is trying to remove your base with cannons, and also good against the morons who just mass Assault mechs (might be good against you from what you posted). I guess I can safely assume you do not play RM MP.

giving the republic an extra unique unit would be unfair so what i suggested was giving all of them extra unique units to balance it out and make it more realistic because isn't the gunship what you all want well my idea put's it in and keeps the game balanced

I really hope you're joking. keep the game balanced? Omg this is too funny! Half your ideas made a complete mockery of game balance. Let's see, rebel laser troops with 100+ hp's, a superfast wookiee logskimmer that carries 20 units, and a ton of overpowered aircrusier ideas, and you claim to be attempting to preserve game balance? Give me a break.

And the gunship UU is hardly what "we all want", it is what a few people want, if you look at the poll. 90% of your ideas, though, make the gunship UU look good by comparison.

Sithmaster_821
07-31-2002, 09:56 AM
Damn you simwiz, I was going to say that! Oh, well, atleast we still have windu to mock.

Ummm, dk, common sense doesnt say lets mangle a perfectly balanced game. Most, if not all, of your ideas would horribly throw off game balance. It's not that im against changing the game, its just that your ideas were so OT and so lacking any clear sense that I was shocked.
sithmaster - by 'negotiate' i was referring to one of your previous comments that indicated you would support changing the Gunship to represent its abilitesi better, as a cheat unit i believe.
It was a toybox unit, and i gave up saying that after 10 or 11 posts. It doesnt mean Im willing to negotiate, it means I think your idea doesnt fit in the actual game, especially not as a UU
simwiz - i have never said i wanted the air cruiser's stats changed, and i dont. The only thing i want changed is the art used for them, so that, for example, the empire air cruiser would be the Star Destroyer.
Were you dropped on your head at birth? Are you unaware of whats going on around you? Simwiz was responding to the kid who barged into this thread babbling about game ideas that make your gunship look moderately intelligent.

Darth Windu
08-01-2002, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by simwiz2

14 - Sorry, but we DON'T NEED ANY MORE OVERPOWERED AIR CRUSIER SUGGESTIONS ON THIS BOARD. I have already seen enough of those from Windu.


sithmaster - that is the post i was replying to. Also, in response to your comment about mangeling a perfectly balanced game. Instead of changing the game, lucasarts should leave it as it is, BUT should include many of the proposed changes in the threads such as 'community idea's for a possible SW:GB 2' into a new game. That way the new units/civs would be able to balanced from the start.

Sithmaster_821
08-01-2002, 10:06 PM
That infers that the ideas on those forums is balanced and needed in the game.

Also, i think simwiz was refering to your gunship (see one of your other 4 threads)

CorranSec
08-02-2002, 04:24 AM
Omg, omg, omg.
Whoever this viceroy person is, seriously, i hope you were joking!
Those are the stupidest ideas I have ever seen. I think sithmaster is right- are you just some kid with his own crazy ideas about a game that you know nothing about?
I thought I was king of insanity, but this guy takes the cake. And eats it.
Mmm... cake... I found a cake in a box the other day. And my friend took a photo of it. :confused:
Uhh... anyway...
Wait a minute! Viceroy isn't insane, he's just stupid!
No offense, but you have to be joking. Superfast transports!? 100+ hp troops!? Triple damage bonus vs mechs!? TIE advanced for the Empire!? Artisans!? Air cruisers with MULTIPLE gun emplacements!?
Simwiz, your aid is needed in another thread... I think it's "ideas for SW:GB 2"... Viceroy has come barging in there as well and posted another bunch of pathetically unbalancing and just plain stupid ideas. As the only person who can translate that jumble of words and crazy ideas that is Viceroyian, I think everybody needs you!
Kryllith... i thought you were an intelligent, sane, sentient being, but your support of (the clearly insane) Viceroy proves me wrong. Tis sad, so sad...
Your idea is even worse than his. ALL gungan units get a triple damage bonus vs mechs? Great! Assault mechs will be wiping out hordes of Mech Destroyers, troopers will be knocking down assault mechs as quick as they come, artillery will be killing strike mechs... even fighters will be able to do a quick pass and kill bunches of Mechs.
Don't fall to the darkside! Join us in our wholehearted rejection of the monster of stupidity that is the Viceroyian ideas!

Darth Windu
08-02-2002, 08:22 AM
sithmaster - he probably was referring to my gunship idea, i just posted that quote in response to your post saying that simwiz wasnt talking to me.

corran - cool it with the insults. Sure, the majority of viceroy's idea's would never work and would unbalanced the game, but you do not need to insult a person in order to get your point accross.

jcb231
08-02-2002, 08:25 AM
Hear hear.
I'm tired of the lack of common civility on these boards. Everyone's reactions to each other are insults or put downs. What kind of a discussion reply is "You're stupid" or "that's a dumb idea"? Come up with decent, thought-out responses to something you feel like responding to or don't post....that goes for everyone.

Sithmaster_821
08-02-2002, 08:57 PM
Relax, Corran. Everyone who is new to a game goes through that stage of an onrush of ideas that dont make much sense gameplay-wise. Certain nameless people are still in that stage or else we wouldnt be here right now.

CorranSec
08-02-2002, 09:08 PM
Mmm. Sorry people. I was just stunned and I don't think my point's going to get across anyway.
To respond with a properly thought out response to Viceroy's original post...
1. Empire has TIE advanced, Jedi mind readers and Nebulon B/Star Destroyer- TIE advanced fighters work well as a toybox unit, if put in the game they would have to be changed from the toybox and as such wouldn't reflect their true abilities. Anti stealth technology- this could possibly work, but very few units use stealth and as such this tech wouldn't be useful against any but a select few, and would completely rock against the select few. But you could just build a couple of Sentry Posts or use scouts if you're so concerned about cloaked units. Nebulon B cruisers are used by the Rebels and the topic of SD's has been brought up elsewhere, my personal opinion is that SD's would be out of scale and look fairly stupid.
2. Rebels have B-Wings, reduced trooper costs and Undying Faith- B-Wings would work really well with the proposed Mon Cal civ, but as a part of the rebels, the same deal applies (you couldn't use the toybox and another version wouldn't reflect its abilities). Troopers are very cheap already, Rebels already have increased trooper HP and an attack increase would overpower them.
3. Wookies lose air shields, have a tree skimmer and Fierce Defence- Why should they lose air shields? This wouldn't fit with the SW universe and would underpower their air, which is supposed to be their strong point. Wait, though, the tree skimmer will completely overpower their air. Imagine hordes of Wookie Repeater troopers being transported from one side of the map to the other quick as a flash, then disgorged inside the enemy base because the treeskimmers are strong enough to withstand AA fire? Wouldn't work. The 'Fierce Defence' is confusing, nobody really uses workers in attacks anyway, but you could sort of duplicate Genosian Diligince if you want to buff Wookie workers.
4. Naboo get artisans and a Royal Defender- Artisans combined with that Research Center tech (forgot its name) would give Naboo workers a remarkably overpowered build time. You could just roll them up outside the enemy base, pop up a turret, pop them inside the turret, and kill all enemies that leave the base!
The Royal Defender is overpowered too. If it couldn't carry units the cost decrease makes sense, but making it stronger is overpowering. Also, how does this represent the Naboo civ in terms of being its 'unique unit?' The term Unique suggests it is unlike any other unit, but this is just a weird Assault Mech with nothing to do with the Naboo.
5. Gungans have a Falumpaset transport, trooper bonus vs. mechs, and Bubble Wart Projectiles-Falumpaset sounds like a ground Treeskimmer, i've already discussed that. Repeater troopers would drop mechs like flies with this upgrade. Did you fail to notice that 90% of everything in the game is "mechanical?" This is basically everything other than troopers.
6. Republic lose some aircraft upgrades, have Genetic Enhancement and a weird gunship- Why should everything be exactly the same as the films? Gameplay>realism. 50% more accuracy? Most things are very accurate already, this is not needed. Your gunship idea actually doesn't fit with the movie, and is pretty weird- 5 assault mechs should take up a bit more space than 10 troopers!
7. Confederacy has Genosian Intuition, huge fighter bonuses, and another treeskimmer clone- Genosians don't have any Intuition, so this isn't movie-based, and is very unbalancing. Not a single miss? The advantages may seem small at first (there aren't that many misses anyway) but will add up over time. They are designed not to have very good aircraft, these bonuses will overpower their air. The treeskimmer... i've said it before, and have no wish to say it again.

As Sithmaster said, this is not common sense. These might be fun, in a weird kind of way, but would mess up a great game.
Sorry about the earlier insults.

Now... umm... everybody is talking about Viceroy, so there's nothing else to post. darn.

Kryllith
08-03-2002, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by CorranSec
Omg, omg, omg.

Kryllith... i thought you were an intelligent, sane, sentient being, but your support of (the clearly insane) Viceroy proves me wrong. Tis sad, so sad...
Your idea is even worse than his. ALL gungan units get a triple damage bonus vs mechs? Great! Assault mechs will be wiping out hordes of Mech Destroyers, troopers will be knocking down assault mechs as quick as they come, artillery will be killing strike mechs... even fighters will be able to do a quick pass and kill bunches of Mechs.

Laugh! That IS his idea, I just reposted so I could point out specifically what I was arguing against. ;) Trust me; I would never want to impliment an idea that would throw the game out of balance the way that would. Heck, I wouldn't want something that would throw the game out of balance at all (which is why when I DO suggest something that might cause a shift in power, I also suggest various means of compensating against the shift. :))

Kryllith

CorranSec
08-03-2002, 08:17 PM
Ah. I see. That's ok then. :D
Umm... to drag this thread back onto the original topic (the gunship debate).....
(somebody say something about the gunship! ;))

Darth Windu
08-03-2002, 10:18 PM
Well the gunship should be the 2nd republic unique unit, being able to carry 2 infantry units, plus a good all-round ground attack. To partially compensate the reoublic transport should change to the gunship transport seen dropping off an AT-TE with its transport ability reduced from 5 to 4 or 3.

simwiz2
08-04-2002, 10:46 AM
This thread was certainly more interesting when it was off-topic.

And the ideas were only slightly dumber. :)

DK_Viceroy
08-04-2002, 12:35 PM
guys have you seen the movies in episode 2 do you see sheilds on republic fighters we've seen what sheilds look like when fired on re ep 1 in tf droid control ship we didn't see that in game if your giving an additional unique unit you should give one to the others and we've all seen tie avenger that should be in too end of republic campaign you see an air base looking like it makes tie avengers they are class they shouyld be in and for empire air cruisers Nebulon B's were developed by the Empire the rebels captured some of them they didn't capture all of them and a nebulon b for an empire air cruiser looks better thatn their bus with wings and what i said for naboo would make them more popular they are patehtic when it comes to ground forces you can't have an army of jedi knights and masters unless you are on a tech 4 death match because they are very expensive or you've been playing for hours which either way takes ages i think jcb 231 was the only one who has a bit of sense in here have you seen ep 1 the bit in the battle between gungans and tf one booma killed an att in ep 2 the geonosian fighters were increadibly accurate and did i not mention for the accuracy increasing the firepower would decrease and i am not new to this game i've had it since it was released i was the frst person i my area to buy the game and it's expansion pack know what your talking about when you insult people everyones entitled to ideas but i havent seen any one elses if your gonna dump on my ideas put your own on as well or are you lot afraid that we'll dump on them eh


Do or Do not there is no try

Sithmaster_821
08-04-2002, 05:25 PM
Poor, Windu. He tries so hard to keep us talking about his pathetic idea. We're soooo over that now!:)

Oh, well. It didnt make since anyway.

Kryllith
08-04-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by DK_Viceroy
guys have you seen the movies in episode 2 do you see sheilds on republic fighters we've seen what sheilds look like when fired on
I agree here; the republic fighters (or gunships as used in the game) shouldn't have shields. But on the same token, they probably should be able to carry troops too. If the gunship were made as an individual unit, hopefully it wouldn't have shields...

if your giving an additional unique unit you should give one to the others
This is unnecessary. As it is, the civilizations aren't balanced in the unique units, nor do they need to be. Balancing can be done without adding an equal amount of unique units to each civ. (Personally, I wouldn't MIND more unique units for each civ since it adds diversity, but it's hardly required).

have you seen ep 1 the bit in the battle between gungans and tf one booma killed an att
Which booma exactly? Are you talking about the large booma that fell out of the trailer. If so, that was an artillery booma, and artillery already do decent damage to mechs. Or are you talking about the one Jar Jar fumbled into the AAT? If so, I don't know what the heck happened there. My only guess would be that either the droid was controlling the AAT with it's feet or the charge of the booma traveled down the gunner droid to either the pilot droid or the controls. *shrugs* Either way, it's a one in a million shot. By that logic the jedis should be able to kill AT-ATs in one shot by using thermal detonators and X-Wings should obliterate anything they face (after all, it only took a single shot to destroy the Death Star).

know what your talking about when you insult people everyones entitled to ideas but i havent seen any one elses if your gonna dump on my ideas put your own on as well or are you lot afraid that we'll dump on them eh
I don't insult people, but I will tear apart ideas presented. If you can't stand criticism then you probably shouldn't post your ideas. As for my ideas, they are strewn throughout. If you want to attack them, be my guest, but I'm not going to bother gathering them all up just to post them in this board.

Kryllith


Do or Do not there is no try [/B][/QUOTE]

Kryllith
08-04-2002, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by DK_Viceroy
guys have you seen the movies in episode 2 do you see sheilds on republic fighters we've seen what sheilds look like when fired on
I agree here; the republic fighters (or gunships as used in the game) shouldn't have shields. But on the same token, they probably should be able to carry troops too. If the gunship were made as an individual unit, hopefully it wouldn't have shields. Of course, if the gunship IS made a seperate unit and a new ship is presented for the Republic fighter, then it could possibly have shields...

if your giving an additional unique unit you should give one to the others
This is unnecessary. As it is, the civilizations aren't balanced in the unique units, nor do they need to be. Balancing can be done without adding an equal amount of unique units to each civ. (Personally, I wouldn't MIND more unique units for each civ since it adds diversity, but it's hardly required).

have you seen ep 1 the bit in the battle between gungans and tf one booma killed an att
Which booma exactly? Are you talking about the large booma that fell out of the trailer. If so, that was an artillery booma, and artillery already do decent damage to mechs. Or are you talking about the one Jar Jar fumbled into the AAT? If so, I don't know what the heck happened there. My only guess would be that either the droid was controlling the AAT with it's feet or the charge of the booma traveled down the gunner droid to either the pilot droid or the controls. *shrugs* Either way, it's a one in a million shot. By that logic the jedis should be able to kill AT-ATs in one shot by using thermal detonators and X-Wings should obliterate anything they face (after all, it only took a single shot to destroy the Death Star).

know what your talking about when you insult people everyones entitled to ideas but i havent seen any one elses if your gonna dump on my ideas put your own on as well or are you lot afraid that we'll dump on them eh
I don't insult people, but I will tear apart ideas presented. If you can't stand criticism then you probably shouldn't post your ideas. As for my ideas, they are strewn throughout. If you want to attack them, be my guest, but I'm not going to bother gathering them all up just to post them in this board.

Kryllith

jcb231
08-04-2002, 08:57 PM
Viceroy, can you PLEASE type in sentences or paragraphs or something? I'm not trying to insult, it just makes you very difficult to follow and understand. Honestly, punctuation and structure are good things. :)

Sithmaster_821
08-04-2002, 10:35 PM
I was thinking the same thing, jcb

Darth Windu
08-12-2002, 06:37 AM
Sithmaster, Simwiz - i have a question for both of you. Assuming that lucasarts creates a SW:GB 2, and that they could give the Gunship similar abilities to the movie version, and they could balance it, would you support it or want it as a Republic UU?

Tyrion
08-12-2002, 06:42 AM
If they make it according to the movie,it could hold 10 men,rocket launchers,and 2 laser cannons. How the hell could they balance that?:rolleyes:

simwiz2
08-12-2002, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
Sithmaster, Simwiz - i have a question for both of you. Assuming that lucasarts creates a SW:GB 2, and that they could give the Gunship similar abilities to the movie version, and they could balance it, would you support it or want it as a Republic UU?

The current game has universal units (right now all civs have generally the same trooper line, fighter line, etc) with the only difference being UU's and upgrades/unique techs. If LucasArts creates GB2 and it has all different units for every civ, then the Gunship could fit. The Republic might not even have any other fighter at all (its "fighter" would be the Gunship, probably stronger but slower), and units in general would be a lot closer to what was seen in the movies. If they decided to use that system and balanced it successfully (as in some C&C games) then I would be perfectly fine with it. A Gunship unit would be a nice thing for the republic to have in GB2, but in the current game it does not fit as a UU.

Darth Windu
08-14-2002, 04:10 AM
Ok then, at least we agree it should be a UU if a SW:GB 2 is made.

pbguy1211
08-14-2002, 04:27 AM
He never said it *should*, but merely stated that it *could* be used in a different game.

W0RF
08-14-2002, 02:26 PM
I entered a vote of "no gunship" not because I don't want the gunship; in truth I don't care, but out of spite. How scientific is your poll now?

Really the only reason I wrote in is to clear up the vocabulary regarding pointless polls:

Majority requires over 50% of the vote. You do not have a majority. You have a PLURALITY. Plurality is when you have more votes than the others, which when given more than 2 choices is not necessarily over 50%, and thus not necessarily a majority.

pbguy1211
08-14-2002, 06:14 PM
Kinda how Clinton won an election way back when...

Darth Windu
08-15-2002, 06:08 AM
Worf - anyone ever told you that you are a retarded mental midget? Well, you are. There is a majority in support of the Gunship as a UU, just not an absolute majority.

W0RF
08-15-2002, 11:28 AM
According to Webster, majority is "a number greater than half of a total."

Plurality according to Webster is "a number of votes cast for a candidate in a contest of more than two candidates that is greater than the number cast for any other candidate but not more than half the total votes cast".

Simple majority and Absolute majority are sometimes used when describing governmental rules of procedure, but have no application in everyday life.

And GUESS WHAT?!? Your pining for your stupid gunship falls under the category of everyday life.

I'm going to ignore the fact that you insulted my considerable intelligence, coz brains ain't got nothin to do with facts, and here you see facts.

pbguy1211
08-15-2002, 12:11 PM
Even if you did take both options as yes, 19 people isn't jack sheight.

simwiz2
08-15-2002, 01:00 PM
Worf: Thank you for explaining to the demented Windu that he does not have a majority. I tried to do that awhile ago but he wouldn't listen to me...


Windu: There you go again, misunderstanding others' posts. All I ever said was that if they used a certain system (non-generic units) it would fit better. For all I know they might use the same system they used in this game, especially if they use the RoN engine.

Darth Windu
08-16-2002, 09:59 AM
Worf - you should be a comedian, with an IQ of -2 and comments like '...my considerable intelligence' all you'd need to do is walk on stage and the audience would start laughing.

simwiz - even if they do use RoN, each civ has at least 4 unique units, and im sure the gunship would be in there.

simwiz2
08-16-2002, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
(1) Worf - you should be a comedian, with an IQ of -2 and comments like '...my considerable intelligence' all you'd need to do is walk on stage and the audience would start laughing.

(2) simwiz - even if they do use RoN, each civ has at least 4 unique units, and im sure the gunship would be in there.

1 - HAH! Oh, this is too funny! You're a great one to talk about intelligence, aren't you, Windu. I haven't seen a single thread started by you that wasn't whining about how you killed your own units out of stupidity or you want to merge units and civs to make the game simpler or you want AAM's to fire at ground because you don't know how to correctly group your units or you want a super-unit to beat the AI with. Your posts have shown to me (and Sith, and I assume others) that you have the IQ of a dead fish.

2 - The RoN engine is still generic units with some UU's. And in a generic unit system, it is likely the Gunship would be the fighter, because that is how they were used.

Darth Windu
08-16-2002, 10:30 AM
simwiz - all of my suggestions have been in the spirit of experimentation to improve the game. If it doesnt work or people dont like it, take it out. Personally i dont see the point of sticking to the exact same things all the time, there needs to be change.

with the Gunship - IT WAS NOT USED AS A FIGHTER!!!!!!!!! The Republic Gunship was used as an Attack/Assault Helicopter very similar to the configuration and role of the Soviet/Russian Mil Mi-24 'Hind'. I suggest you look it up and have a quick read about it, maybe then you will see why the gunship isnt a fighter.

W0RF
08-16-2002, 01:11 PM
[Worf - you should be a comedian, with an IQ of -2 and comments like '...my considerable intelligence' all you'd need to do is walk on stage and the audience would start laughing.]

Well, I guess you told me. I see it your way now. Thank you for explaining to me the error of my ways.
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"

[simwiz - all of my suggestions have been in the spirit of experimentation to improve the game.]

A curious statement. I wonder: how does your comment at the top of this reply qualify as a suggested experiment to improve the game? With my puny :bdroid1: brain I have a hard time seeing how making such troll-like :evanpiel: digs has anything to do with the all-mighty Gunship. :bored:

Damage8522
08-16-2002, 02:31 PM
Hey Darth Windu,

Why you take your gunship idea, shine it up real good, turn it sideways, and stick it up your candy .......! If you smmmmmmeeeelllllll what the wookie is cookin'.

:p :p :p :deathstar :deathstar

Tyrion
08-16-2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
Worf - you should be a comedian, with an IQ of -2 and comments like '...my considerable intelligence' all you'd need to do is walk on stage and the audience would start laughing.



You look like a complete idiot Windu. All he did was disagree with the facts. He might have been wrong. That gave you no right to call him a retarded midget. How the hell do you know his IQ anyway?

I'm wouldnt be suprized if your unemployment checks are the only thing that keeps you having a internet connection to whine about this :rolleyes:

Do you and us all a favor and go back to getting your butt kicked at pong:D

And I am proboly being Hypocriticle,but who gives a damn?

W0RF
08-16-2002, 04:08 PM
The laundormat called. They want their $3.95 back for the hour you spent one-finger pecking that brilliant retort to something I basically cut-and-pasted out of a freaking online dictionary.

Darth Windu
08-17-2002, 03:42 AM
The reason i had a go at worf is because of the comments about voting 'no' to the gunship out of spite. That annoys me because this poll was posted to measure the amount of community interest in a Gunship that would reflect its abilities better than the current version, and here we have someone trying to stuff it up. If worf had voted no because they dont want the gunship changed, that would've been fine, but that isnt the case.

simwiz2
08-17-2002, 11:46 AM
Windu - when you attempt to insult someone after they have proven you wrong it makes you look stupid. You didn't argue with his definitions, which I am assuming means you have openend up a dictionary and checked, and realized your errors. Or you just realized that you are wrong. But then you call him stupid after he has just proven your stupid majority rants wrong. Who does that make look stupid, Windu? When I saw your post I just started laughing. At you. When people insult you Windu, they ususally have a point or a reason. Every time I call you a moron, it is because what you have posted makes me lose confidence in general human intelligence. Here, you throw pointless insults (that you probably only know because someone used them on you) at someone who is clearly a lot smarter than you. It makes you look like a three year old.

As for the fighter thing, they don't need to have exact parallels. Sure it is big and has a lot of firepower but it was what the republic used closest to a fighter. Do you have a better unit for fighter? And for the sake of the intelligence of all who read your posts, do not say the starfighter.

About the poll, maybe he was tired of seeing so many damn gunship threads? Maybe he has a strong dislike for you? Who knows? I was thinking about voting no out of you being stupid and posting so many threads about it, but I voted toybox because it makes the most sense IMO.

eizo131
08-19-2002, 03:32 AM
Ok my 2 cents the gunship should be a modified transport ship with high attack and defense it should be strong against AA assults but sinsitive to fighters attacks. IT should have air-to- air capabilities but it should not be very effectve, and strong air-to-surface weapons. The Gunship should be able to carry 1 mech or hvy weapon or 5 troopers.:fett:

Darth Windu
08-19-2002, 06:00 AM
simwiz - i dont give a stuff what you, or anyone else here thinks of me. This thread was opened to measure the amount of community support for an altered gunship, and yes, i get rather annoyed when an idiot such as worf decides to be a smart-arse by stuffing the poll.
Getting back to the gunship the jedi starfighter is by far more like a normal fighter than the gunship is, but as i have said before, i do not want to start a gunship vs starfighter debate, as i think they should both be republic unique units. This is why i have suggested that lucasarts wait for ep3 beforeing doing a SW:GB 2 as a republic fighter may appear.

DarthMaulUK
08-19-2002, 06:07 AM
I will close it.

People are entitled to their views and mocking their views in certain ways will not be allowed.

I have already posted in the Poll thread that there won't be a Gunship Poll as it will only attract a handful of voters - as the original Poll for this did.

DMUK

Darth Windu
08-19-2002, 06:27 AM
well as i stated before i got annoyed because there was a vote placed that was not done because of what that person believed, but just to try to make a point, or some other reason. If they had voted for whatever option because they wanted it, fine. If they decided to oppose my idea's, fine. But rigging a vote i will not accept.

Getting back to the point, has anyone actually checked out the Mi-24 to see what i'm talking about? If you havent, you should, it is what the gunship was based on, and i think that the gunship should be able to reflect some of these qualities.

eizo - i disagree. In my opinion, the gunship should only carry 2 or 3 infantry, while the Republic transport should be modified to the one shown in ep2 (carrying the AT-TE) with that only being able to carry 2 or 3 mechs, but greater speed and/or hitpoints.

Kryllith
08-19-2002, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
In my opinion, the gunship should only carry 2 or 3 infantry, while the Republic transport should be modified to the one shown in ep2 (carrying the AT-TE) with that only being able to carry 2 or 3 mechs, but greater speed and/or hitpoints.
Yeah, I pretty much made this argument from the start. If they gunship does gain transports capabilities it should be limited to small units (troopers, jedi, medics, and workers) and limited in carrying capacity. The other transport should also be limited to larger units and limited in carrying capacity (like the mechdropper in the movie). This would provide a decent penalty for having two air transports, especially when one has offensive capabilities, because it requires balancing the creation of ships in order to transport a variety of ground forces.

Kryllith

W0RF
08-19-2002, 11:26 AM
I happen not to give two craps whether they ever include the gunship in the game. The Republic already has the Starfighter and powerful jedi and can crank out 40 troops per minute PER TROOP CENTER and a bunch of powerful unique upgrades. Another unit is the last thing they need. If anything they should take out the air transport, make this a slower, more powerful version of the fighter and carry 3 units. BUT since the AoK engine has generic units for these guys... no gunship.

Whatever the case, you need to realize, Windu, that some two dozen people out of the thousands who browse this website, the millions who play the game, and the billions who live on earth, think your post is worth spending 5 seconds responding to. Polls are conducted using larger samples, scientifically administered, and calculate their margin of error. Your poll is anemic at best, totally unrepresentative of any practical scientific application, and on top of that, utterly worthless.

pbguy1211
08-19-2002, 12:33 PM
Exactly worf... exactly... i don't see why he doesn't understand...

simwiz2
08-19-2002, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
well as i stated before i got annoyed because there was a vote placed that was not done because of what that person believed, but just to try to make a point, or some other reason. If they had voted for whatever option because they wanted it, fine. If they decided to oppose my idea's, fine. But rigging a vote i will not accept.

What a sore loser. You remind me of Al Gore after the election: "the people don't know how to vote, it's rigged, blah blah blah..."

Your Gunship idea has lost the vote, so please just shut up and get over it. Whining like a baby about 1 vote gets a bit annoying. Every registered member has a right to vote on your poll for whatever reason they want. If someone wants to vote no out of spite, then you have another vote for no, you have to just get over it and move on. Should everyone be required to state a reason why they want to vote and have it accepted by you for it to count?

W0RF
08-19-2002, 01:00 PM
That's like saying that people vote for the best candidate in every election and not for the best party, or against the guy they hate, or against the other party, or for/against the incumbent. When you open a poll, you get the results you attract. There's no two ways around it.

Now go back to explaining how 10 votes out of 29 is a majority. That at least was entertaining.

Kryllith
08-19-2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by W0RF
Whatever the case, you need to realize, Windu, that some two dozen people out of the thousands who browse this website, the millions who play the game, and the billions who live on earth, think your post is worth spending 5 seconds responding to. Polls are conducted using larger samples, scientifically administered, and calculate their margin of error. Your poll is anemic at best, totally unrepresentative of any practical scientific application, and on top of that, utterly worthless.

Ah, but the poll listed here IS representative of the people that actually use these polls. There may be a thousands of people browsing this site, but that does NOT mean there are thousands of people browsing this thread (or even this list of threads). For all we know, many of the JKII, movie fans, Monkey Island fans, or the members of the various other lists that make up this site never come here. As for the millions that play... how many of them come here? How many of them ever KNOW about this site (I played GB for 5 months before I ever came to lucasforums.) They aren't a part of the equation because for every million that is against the idea, there might be 25 million that are for it. And as for the billions, we can automatically exclude anyone who doesn't play the game. For that matter, we can probably exclude anyone who hasn't seen or knows nothing about the movie since they wouldn't likely know how the gunship is potrayed in it anyway. The popular sample that we CAN concern ourselves with are the people that actually come here, and more particularly, with the people that actually contribute to the discussions that occur here. And by that, more people are in favor of having the gunship in some form other than it's current than those that don't favor a change at all.

Kryllith

W0RF
08-19-2002, 01:27 PM
LucasArts doesn't build their games around opinion polls created by users on a message board somewhere on the Internet. You said yourself that there are uncounted swarms that are not part of the poll because they do not browse this site. And yet you are suggesting that those who DO, somehow have some sort of authority to speak for them.

Their is no practical way to include the gunship in the game, other than to use it as a toybox unit so that Windu can summon 150 gunships for his Senate game. And there is certainly no way LucasArts is going to turn the engine upside-down and cripple the gameplay just to make room for the whim of 22 people. If that were the case, the Zone would have fixed their RM/Scenario headache months ago.

I said it before and I'll say it again, the problem lies not in the gunship or in the civs but in the strict limitations that the AoK engine places on their ability to make the civs all that different one from the other. Look at StarCraft. The Terrans, Zerg and Protoss are CONSIDERABLY different one from the other, not only in terms of balanced abilities, but in the nature and function of their buildings and units. The GB engine does not allow that degree of flexibility, so the bottom line is, however much time you dedicate to making these civs behave differently, they will still play about 80% the same. There is no place in this world for a gunship, and quite frankly, I think the Republic and the game in general is none the worse for not having it.

Kryllith
08-19-2002, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by W0RF LucasArts doesn't build their games around opinion polls created by users on a message board somewhere on the Internet. You said yourself that there are uncounted swarms that are not part of the poll because they do not browse this site. And yet you are suggesting that those who DO, somehow have some sort of authority to speak for them.
They do in a sense. If during a presidental election only 5% of all eligible voters vote then all those that didn't vote are at the mercy of the those that did. Granted, our votes don't affect what WILL occur at LucasArts, since those decisions lie solely on the designers and administrators. And while they may not care way or another as to what goes on here, it doesn't negate the value of the opinions of the people arguing. I've heard tell that they (LucasArts) do listen to the discussions at various fan-based sites from time to time and have instigated changes, such as the AT-ATs ability to fire at air, though I obviously cannot confirm this myself since I do not work for them. It never hurts present a survey of views however, on the off chance that someone might be listening.

Their is no practical way to include the gunship in the game, other than to use it as a toybox unit so that Windu can summon 150 gunships for his Senate game. And there is certainly no way LucasArts is going to turn the engine upside-down and cripple the gameplay just to make room for the whim of 22 people. If that were the case, the Zone would have fixed their RM/Scenario headache months ago.
Certainly there is. Give the standard gunship fighter the ability to transports a couple of mansized units and lower the carrying capacity of normal air transports to compensate (and perhaps increase the price and/or buildspeed of the gunship fighter to slow down air-dropped trooper rushes). How much does this really change? Not much in all honesty, but it does give the gunship the ability to air-drop troops. And if this seems to give them an advantage, the fact that the regular transports wouldn't be able to carry as many unit limits the fast dispersion of heavy, mechs, and the like. Certainly this will result in different strategies, but that's all a part of the game.


I said it before and I'll say it again, the problem lies not in the gunship or in the civs but in the strict limitations that the AoK engine places on their ability to make the civs all that different one from the other. Look at StarCraft. The Terrans, Zerg and Protoss are CONSIDERABLY different one from the other, not only in terms of balanced abilities, but in the nature and function of their buildings and units. The GB engine does not allow that degree of flexibility, so the bottom line is, however much time you dedicate to making these civs behave differently, they will still play about 80% the same. There is no place in this world for a gunship, and quite frankly, I think the Republic and the game in general is none the worse for not having it.

I agree that the GB engine could use a bit more flexibility, though I think they can do a bit more then what they've done to it in the way of creating diversity. Will if change the way people differentiate in their play of various civs? Probably not, at least not to any great extent. As for whether there is a place for the gunship in the game, I can see it (provided it's not the 4-individual targeting laser, missile firing, mini-aircruiser version of it), though in truth it really doesn't matter to me as the game currently sits. If a number of changes were made to the overall game though, I could see it as being a possibility.

Kryllith

W0RF
08-19-2002, 03:46 PM
You're just rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic, dude. Even assuming that they could alter the functionality of their generic units, which I don't think they can do that, the only alternative they have is to cripple or remove altogether their fighter and air transport to make room for the UU.

It seems like a lot of effort to put into a civ that is already very powerful, with no perceivable benefit other than you will have some assault-chopper-type unit that just happened to be in the movie. I really don't see a balance here in terms of cost versus benefit.

pbguy1211
08-19-2002, 08:31 PM
thank you w0rf for bringing some sense of reason back to this forum.

and i loved the comment on them being only for use in windu's senate game... lol, too funny. and most likely true. i guess that's why i find it funny.

Kryllith
08-19-2002, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by W0RF You're just rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic, dude. Even assuming that they could alter the functionality of their generic units, which I don't think they can do that, the only alternative they have is to cripple or remove altogether their fighter and air transport to make room for the UU.
Well that's an unknown variable. If it's easy to change the generic make to a unit then it wouldn't require removing the fighter and transport. Is it easy? Who knows. It could be rather simple. BUT, on the assumption that it CAN'T be done as I suggested, then yeah, I wouldn't suggest replacing both the fighter and transport with a single unit.

It seems like a lot of effort to put into a civ that is already very powerful, with no perceivable benefit other than you will have some assault-chopper-type unit that just happened to be in the movie. I really don't see a balance here in terms of cost versus benefit.
Perhaps, but I'm not suggesting that the only change being made to the game is to give the republic the gunship. If that was the only thing I would want, then I'd only want it as a toybox unit or a cheat unit. If ANY civ were to suddenly acquire a unique, then I'd certainly hope that other changes were made to the other civs as possibility global aspects of the game.

Kryllith

Kryllith
08-19-2002, 08:47 PM
Don'tcha just hate it when the blasted thing freezes up and then end up posting the same message twice? Ah well, lucky thing there's an edit function. ;)

Kryllith

simwiz2
08-20-2002, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Kryllith

They do in since.

If they do see the poll and use it, they would probably put in a toybox gunship since most people are against the UU, and toybox has many votes.


Certainly there is. Give the standard gunship fighter the ability to transports a couple of mansized units and lower the carrying capacity of normal air transports to compensate (and perhaps increase the price and/or buildspeed of the gunship fighter to slow down air-dropped trooper rushes). How much does this really change? Not much in all honesty, but it does give the gunship the ability to air-drop troops. And if this seems to give them an advantage, the fact that the regular transports wouldn't be able to carry as many unit limits the fast dispersion of heavy, mechs, and the like. Certainly this will result in different strategies, but that's all a part of the game.

I would be a bit worried about harming republic air power. If the fighters are more expensive or slower their combat efficiency will suffer greatly. And cost-effectively you would be losing if you were evenly matched with your opponent in air and battled it out. The trooper drop might work in some cases, but I think the fighter's vulnerability to AA and its costing nova would prevent its use as a transport. I don't think it would be very useful.

Also it would be awful micromanagement. Can you imagine commanding all 40 of your fighters to drop their units while also battling with your opponent's air force? Imagine all the fighters trying to drop your units at the spot you clicked and getting stuck on each other and watching your enemy's smaller air force destroy them effortlessly. :D :naboo: :swear:


use it as a toybox unit so that Windu can summon 150 gunships for his Senate game

LOL!

Kryllith
08-20-2002, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by simwiz2

I would be a bit worried about harming republic air power. If the fighters are more expensive or slower their combat efficiency will suffer greatly. And cost-effectively you would be losing if you were evenly matched with your opponent in air and battled it out. The trooper drop might work in some cases, but I think the fighter's vulnerability to AA and its costing nova would prevent its use as a transport. I don't think it would be very useful.

Also it would be awful micromanagement. Can you imagine commanding all 40 of your fighters to drop their units while also battling with your opponent's air force? Imagine all the fighters trying to drop your units at the spot you clicked and getting stuck on each other and watching your enemy's smaller air force destroy them effortlessly. :D :

Granted, there are some of the drawbacks to giving them the ability to carry troops. But you would the same problem (latter problem) if you had a ton of normal transports trying to drop all their units off on the same spot. The delay/cost of building could be bit problematic, but I'm not suggesting something major in the cost difference, more like the penalty the Empire originally suffered in the pre-xpack game. The difference being that the Republic fighters would still be a lot more powerful individually than a number of the other civs, given their upgrades, and they'd still get the jedi starfighter for extra support.

The major problem I could see would be vulnerability to AA. Even with shields, fighters tend to die easier to AA than air transports. But them's the breaks, I guess (of using the fighter gunship as the transport instead of making a seperate, more AA resistant gunship). If you have a small group of fighters who can carry troops then you risk the troops getting shot down before they can be deployed. On the other hand, if you can deploy efficiently, they can be quite valuable since they'd be able to cover their deployed units. It's simply a calculated risk... kinda like transporting any other troops...

Kryllith

W0RF
08-20-2002, 10:13 AM
dude, you're arguing over the strategic qualities of a unit that doesn't exist. You are still a long way from convincing me that there is any benefit to having the gunship AS WELL AS the air units and the cr00zer and the starfighter for the Republic, or why it's worth taking the trouble of crippling or removing basic air units from a civ, or why someone should go to the trouble of piling on new UUs to the other civs just to create them. Rebuilding the World Trade Center as five buildings that looks like a giant bird flipping off the middle east is a great idea, but it's not very practical either.

Kryllith
08-20-2002, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by W0RF
dude, you're arguing over the strategic qualities of a unit that doesn't exist. You are still a long way from convincing me that there is any benefit to having the gunship AS WELL AS the air units and the cr00zer and the starfighter for the Republic, or why it's worth taking the trouble of crippling or removing basic air units from a civ, or why someone should go to the trouble of piling on new UUs to the other civs just to create them. Rebuilding the World Trade Center as five buildings that looks like a giant bird flipping off the middle east is a great idea, but it's not very practical either.
Of course I'm arguing over the strategic qualities of a unit that doesn't exist. If a unit is going to be introduced into a strategy game then the way in which that unit can be utilized, and the exposure of it's strengths and weakness, have to be taken into account. As for the benefit, provided that everything can be balanced out, I consider a bit of diversity a benefit. If making adjustments to the carrying means of two units can affect the strategies people use in playing a particular Civ, then it's for the better.

For that matter, I'm not suggesting removing basic air units from a civ, or even necessarily adding a new unit. Crippling them? Well if you consider a slight delay in the cost and/or build time crippling then I guess that your perogative. It never crippled me while using Empire air, and their air is far inferior to that of the Republic. As for limiting the carrying of units for air transports, I'm one of the people who believes that unit limitations should be globally placed on all tranports based the size of the units anyway. The Republic would just receive a harder blow for the base transport because they'd have another unit capability of carrying smaller units.

Kryllith

eizo131
08-21-2002, 04:45 AM
Darth Windu- Fine 2 to 3 units is enough but Hinds carry six fully armed and ready infantry just to let you know
I don't know who thought of the dumb Idea of making the gunship fire aircruiser shots but that ain't a good idea at ALL. the gunship should fire missles at air targets and canons at ground ones like in the movies. ( minus when they used missles to blow up the rocket ships ) ah hem This thread was made to discuss the gunship issue not WORF's IQ. I want a jedi starfighter and gunship smilie:(

eizo131
08-21-2002, 04:53 AM
DMUK- could me make this a poll on the site? You know like the first page poll thing? plz?:D It's worth a try........

Darth Windu
08-21-2002, 05:59 AM
eizo - true, but then US assault helo's carry 12-14 fully armed troops, which is why the gunship would have a lower carrying ability.

With the gunship, the reason that i want it in is that it is an essential piece of the republic army, and it is unique in that no other civ has anything like it. I really cannot see a problem with an armed transport that can carry infatry units, especially if the main transport is altered to compensate.

Worf - remember that this idea is mainly for a possible SW:GB 2. The reason i say this is because of the current situation with the republic fighter, and the normal 1 UU. Hopefully in SW:GB 2 (if its made) there would be many UU's per side (like RoN) and the gunship would be able to included and balanced from the start.

DK_Viceroy
08-21-2002, 07:44 AM
Windu get ur own ideas i said that exact same phrase

In my opinion, the gunship should only carry 2 or 3 infantry, while the Republic transport should be modified to the one shown in ep2 (carrying the AT-TE) with that only being able to carry 2 or 3 mechs, but greater speed and/or hitpoints.

out of 32 votes inly 11 ppl wanted it as a second republic unique unit and a about the same amount of ppl voted for no gunship at all i was one of them the republkic is a good all rounder civ .if you gave them a hyped up transport with weapons you would have to take something away to balance it and regardless of what you took away it wouldn't be worth it the fast fighter in the game actually looks like the gunship the republic transport was around b4 the clone army ep 2 when padme and anakin went to naboo that was the republic transport. i hardly think a transport with weapons is a good idea maybe if a new unit was put into the game for all the civs like a landing craft it might work because your fanatic pleas for a gunship might come true but ...................it would mean that your insane idea of trying to make on of the most unique civs apart from the gungans more unique which would be next to impossible get some sense. windu not enuogh ppl want the gunship and in swgb 2 if it does come out each civ would have something like 4 unique units. and besides the republic wouldn't need the gunship their air cruisers with air cruiser boost researched means that what about 10 gunships could propably do in 5 minutes if they were playing against a stupid opponent would what an aircruiser could do in one blast if the gunship was in the game it should be treated like the a-wing and have to be researched but then how would they make it like the film where the gunship runs out of rockets quickly eh?

if the gunship was in it should have 50 HP no sheilds {the republic should lose sheilds for fighhters any way and be 4 times faster} 4 attack points a rasnge of 5 and armor of 3 able to carry one scout 5 troops and troops on board should be healed because of the medic buil.t in to the gunship i'm glad everyone else sees sense in this thread because you would have to remove something of the republics to keep the game balanced or give each civ a resaerchable abilty for some of their units to make it balanced the empire would get something like TWin Ionised Engines upgrade making their fighters really fast like 8 times as fast confed would get Hailfire Driod Rebuild giving it the abilkty to fire at ground targets the TF would get something like upgraded Turrets which would give AAt's the abiltiy to fire at air targets like in the film the gungans would get a like Booma Enhancements which would give a small trooper bonus against some mechs the rebel allinace would get b-wing research meaning when completed they can build B-Wings and the wookies should get a tech level 2 upgrade of Honour Code which would be a cheap equivalent to jedi/sith purge but wookie units couldn't be converted at all and all the things i have suggested have roots from the films or books about the films and this is star wars more adavnced than a helicopter why are ppl comparing a unit that propably won't be put in swgb at all.

oh yeah and what is a lambada shuttole they have good lasers sheilds and rockets a near equivalent of the gunship don't you think of course what i just said about the lambadda will be seen in episodes 7 8 and 9 and a tf C-9799 is a prettty near equivalent too so what are you saying about a unit that no civ in movie or game has.

[/COLOR] Watch the Films Read the Books Find the Truth

lukeiamyourdad
08-22-2002, 02:12 PM
I am proposing something different, what if all the civs get some kind of gunship. It would be better that way(I think).

eizo131
08-23-2002, 02:39 AM
Windu- good point
guy with the ewok avatar- NO WAY I don't everycivis something like an armed transport
Ahem well I have said my opinion and thier are 12 people to back me up. right? gunship as UU is majarity by 2 good for us.

Darth Windu
08-23-2002, 06:21 AM
luke - the whole point about it being unique is that no-one else has it!

With the gunship, it is unique, and should be therefore be a republic unique unit. While it may be a simple reason, it is also the best. Ask yourselves the question, 'why are the destroyer droid, probot, airspeeder etc unique units?' the answer of course is that no other civ has anything like it, and this is most certainly true of the gunship.

W0RF
08-23-2002, 10:20 AM
Windu - your initial post and subject header mentions nothing about SWGB2, nor do you mention it until like 20 posts down when you concede that LA may not add it this time around. Moreover, most people have been responding under the premise that the unit be included in GB. It's a little late to be assuming that everyone automatically knows whether you're talking add-on for GB or wish-list for GB2, especially since you've been framing most of your arguments around the specs of the AoK engine.

eizo - I'm not going to explain majority and plurality again. Just scroll back 30 or 40 posts.

Darth Windu
08-24-2002, 01:07 AM
worf - the thing is, i want the gunship as a UU. Whether it is in GB or a possible GB2, i dont care, as long as it is a UU.

Tyrion
08-24-2002, 01:14 AM
ok...it's a good idea windu

the rebublic gunship

1 health
0 armor
1 damage
can carry only one guy
is a UU unit

hey you said as long as it was in there you wouldnt mind:D :rolleyes:

simwiz2
08-24-2002, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Tyrion
ok...it's a good idea windu

the rebublic gunship

1 health
0 armor
1 damage
can carry only one guy
is a UU unit

hey you said as long as it was in there you wouldnt mind:D :rolleyes:

I bet it would be his favorite unit too. Then when he loses he would wonder why 250 gunships lost to only 20 fighters. :)

lukeiamyourdad
08-24-2002, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion and simwiz

ok...it's a good idea windu

the rebublic gunship

1 health
0 armor
1 damage
can carry only one guy
is a UU unit

If your reading my post Windu it means that you will know that i am joining the fight against a gunship UU. Besides i think you're beginning to be too obsessive about the matter. almost nobody supports you idea and most of us want you to just stop writing about it. And I will ask you this , why should only the republic have a armed transport? Ever played Tie Fighter ? Ever heard of the Stormtooper transport? If it's no then you should know that a stormtrooper transport is so kind of gunship( not the same but it has cannons and can shoot rockets)?

Kryllith
08-24-2002, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion
ok...it's a good idea windu

the rebublic gunship

1 health
0 armor
1 damage
can carry only one guy
is a UU unit

hey you said as long as it was in there you wouldnt mind:D :rolleyes:
And a creation cost of only 1 carbon and 1 food, with a build speed of 1 second (with only 1 health, it doesn't take a long time to build it). I'd use it, depending on how fast it moves... :) Course, I wouldn't call it a gunship... more like Jango/Boba's backpack. ;)

Kryllith

pbguy1211
08-24-2002, 07:41 PM
That was actually really funny!
Busted out loud at that one...

W0RF
08-24-2002, 10:23 PM
The Empire should have a new Unique Unit, Boba Fett! It's exactly like a Bounty Hunter, only except it's not! Coz you see Boba Fett is not really like a bounty hunter, we see Boba in the movie flying the Slave I, but we never see IG-88 or any of the other bounty hunters flying a ship! So they must not have a ship since I didn't see it in the movie! So that makes Boba Fett different and since he didn't work for any of the other civs he should be a UU and the only civ to get another UU added.

And to make him different than a normal bounty hunter, he should have like +30 damage vs. Jedi and be invulnerable to laser troops, and he should have a jetpack upgrade you can research that will allow him to walk and be ground, or fly and be air! And when he's air he can attack both air and ground and destroy buildings in 2 hits, but when he's on the ground he can't hit buildings but he can like tie up laser troops with his grappling rope so they can't attack anybody. And I think LucasArts should figure out how to balance it coz I can't be bothered with how the game plays, it is more important to me that it is identical to the movies in every way.

So that's my new Empire UU idea. I am going to create 5 more threads talking about what a great idea this is, and beg DMUK to make it a forum poll, and email LucasArts 5 times every day until they read it and find out what a l33t idea I have and add it to the next expansion, or SWGB 24, just so long as they put it in there.

If anyone is :confused: this post is just for :D and :lol: so don't get :mad: or :swear: like a drugged-up :jawa: or you'll end up like :bdroid2: or even :biggs: and the most you'll get from me is :roleyess: and :violin:

Darth Windu
08-24-2002, 10:53 PM
In respect to the gunship as a UU, ask yourselves the following questions.

1. Why is the Airspeeder a Rebel UU?
2. Why is the A-wing a Rebel UU?
3. Why is the Probot an Empire UU?
4. Why is the Dark Trooper an Empire UU?
5. Why is the Destroyer Droid a TF UU?
6. Why is the Royal Crusader a Naboo UU?
7. Why is the Fambaa shield generator a Gungan UU?
8. Why is the Geonosian Warrior a Confederacy UU?
9. Why is the Jedi Starfighter a Republic UU?
10. Why are the Confederacy animals UU's?

and finally
11. Why shouldn't the Gunship be a Republic UU?

I honestly do not see why you guys are opposing the gunship as a Republic Unique Unit. Something 'unique' is, in this game, something that no other civ has. This applies to all of the previous UU's, and it also applies to the Gunship.

Legacy_Of_Sith
08-24-2002, 11:13 PM
Newsflash Darth Windu! The republic already has the gunship! Do you know why it's unique even though it's a generic fighter? Because no other civ has it's art! So be happy that you can even see a gunship on your screen!

KoL ShadowJedi
08-25-2002, 08:45 AM
A gunship sounds cool but u already have 1....... i reckon to make it better in UU is to make the advanced fighter for the republic have missile capability after all we did see it in ep 2! just it takes a long time to reload. In my opinion naboo shud get upgraded i mean they shudnt be that crap!! they shud have better men at least and there UU should be the royal starship cos i love the design of it :) the empire shud not be able to have assault mechs! but instead have the AT-AT as there UU which has 25 attack as standard 500 HP and decent armour +it can be upgraded. And it wont be unbalanced ppl cos other civs qud still be able to build assault mechs. I would also like to see the airspeeder have a tow cable!

simwiz2
08-25-2002, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by W0RF
The Empire should have a new Unique Unit, Boba Fett! It's exactly like a Bounty Hunter, only except it's not! Coz you see Boba Fett is not really like a bounty hunter, we see Boba in the movie flying the Slave I, but we never see IG-88 or any of the other bounty hunters flying a ship! So they must not have a ship since I didn't see it in the movie! So that makes Boba Fett different and since he didn't work for any of the other civs he should be a UU and the only civ to get another UU added.

And to make him different than a normal bounty hunter, he should have like +30 damage vs. Jedi and be invulnerable to laser troops, and he should have a jetpack upgrade you can research that will allow him to walk and be ground, or fly and be air! And when he's air he can attack both air and ground and destroy buildings in 2 hits, but when he's on the ground he can't hit buildings but he can like tie up laser troops with his grappling rope so they can't attack anybody. And I think LucasArts should figure out how to balance it coz I can't be bothered with how the game plays, it is more important to me that it is identical to the movies in every way.

So that's my new Empire UU idea. I am going to create 5 more threads talking about what a great idea this is, and beg DMUK to make it a forum poll, and email LucasArts 5 times every day until they read it and find out what a l33t idea I have and add it to the next expansion, or SWGB 24, just so long as they put it in there.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

lukeiamyourdad
08-26-2002, 10:14 AM
Windu, I am not opposed to the idea of having a true gunship but as long as every civs get some kind of gunship for them. The other unique units did not unbalance the game because they were not that powerful(except the destroyer droid but they changed that in clone campaigns)

[I]Originally posted by Darth Windu[I]

In respect to the gunship as a UU, ask yourselves the following questions. 1. Why is the Airspeeder a Rebel UU?
2. Why is the A-wing a Rebel UU? 3. Why is the Probot an Empire UU?
4. Why is the Dark Trooper an Empire UU?
5. Why is the Destroyer Droid a TF UU?
6. Why is the Royal Crusader a Naboo UU?
7. Why is the Fambaa shield generator a Gungan UU?
8. Why is the Geonosian Warrior a Confederacy UU?
9. Why is the Jedi Starfighter a Republic UU?
10. Why are the Confederacy animals UU's?

1. Because they need an anti-mech unit 'cause their own mechs are not strong enough.
2.I have no idea why they put it there.Probably for a fast aircraft.
3.Lowcost scout with better LOS.Besides, you're not going to win a war with probot!
4.Who knows why? I think they suck because they're only good against troopers.
5.They just needed a big bad anti-trooper shielded unit and it does not unbalance the game because they cost 50 carbon and 150 nova.
6.Look at number one.
7.For some defensive purpose.
8.Look at number4.
9.Who knows why?Because the jedis needed a fighter of course.
10.The geonosian warrior was not enough...

Darth Windu
08-26-2002, 10:23 AM
luke - you completely missed the point i was trying to make. The asnwer to those questions should be 'because they are unique'. No other civ in the game has anything like them, which is why they are UU's. The Gunship is a weapon unique to the Republic, so why shouldn't they get it as a UU?

W0RF
08-26-2002, 11:08 AM
It already exists in the game as a generic fighter. THAT is its presence in the game. There's no need to reinvent the wheel just to make sure every unit in every movie is in the game in exactly the way it was utilized.

What you seem to fail to understand is that these people don't hate the gunship. They simply happen to think the game IS FINE THE WAY IT IS! Or at least as well as can be expected, given the circumstances.

lukeiamyourdad
08-26-2002, 11:19 AM
Then I ask you something

The AT-AT is unique to the Empire
The X-Wing is unique to the Rebels
The N-1 is unique to the naboo
The MTT is unique to the Trade Federation
The AT-ST is unique to the Empire
The AAT is unique to the Trade Federation

Did you ever see anybody else using these weapons?(except Chewbacca and his captured AT-ST)
Then why if everybody has an Adv Fighter, an assault mech, etc. and we know that it is unique to the civ (jeez, ever see any gungan piloting an X-Wing or an AT-AT?!) why should the republic be the only civ to get an gunship or some kind of? They only put one or two unique units to make the game a little funnier that's all. And look at all of them. Their not "armed transports shooting big bad rockets and blowing everything in their paths". They are not at all too strong and that's the point. Your gunship would be too strong!!!!!

simwiz2
08-26-2002, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
Then I ask you something

The AT-AT is unique to the Empire
The X-Wing is unique to the Rebels
The N-1 is unique to the naboo
The MTT is unique to the Trade Federation
The AT-ST is unique to the Empire
The AAT is unique to the Trade Federation

Thank you! Maybe now Windu will understand that in a game with generic units, none of these are UU's, just like the Gunship isn't a UU.

Though it's very likely he will miss the point entirely. Again.

simwiz2
08-26-2002, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Darth Windu
I honestly do not see why you guys are opposing the gunship as a Republic Unique Unit.

I honestly do not see why you continue your inane drivel about how the Gunship would be such a great UU. It wouldn't be. It has no place in gameplay, so kindly shut your trap about it. Please? Many people are tired of hearing about it. :bored:

Kryllith
08-26-2002, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
Their not "armed transports shooting big bad rockets and blowing everything in their paths". They are not at all too strong and that's the point. Your gunship would be too strong!!!!!
I don't know what version of the gunship you're talking about, but it's certainly not the one Windu (or myself for that matter) am proposing. We're totally against turning the gunship into a miniturized version of the air cruiser... that's NOT what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be a transport that can provide air cover.

While we're at it, why should the AT-AT be the only assault mech to attack air? Because it creates some diversity between the civs and henceforth affects gameplay. THAT is why the gunship would be limited to the Republic...

Kryllith

Sithmaster_821
08-26-2002, 11:04 PM
I've got a little math for you guys. Estimate your IQ (dont flatter yourself Windu). Now, for every time you posted on this thread, subtract 1 point (2 points if your post was in favor of the gunship UU). This is your current IQ. That puts many forumers (Windu, Viceroy, ect.) in the negatives.

Windu:
1. Strong anti-mech for those weak in mechs.
2. Rebel air superiority
3. So they dont tie up mech factories with scouts
4. Help the emps lacking troopers
5. Beef up the TF mech arsenal
6. Naboo needs to make up for little heavies somehow.
7. Because it doesnt fit anywhere else and was a good idea
8. Trooper support
9. It was in the movies and gives the reps much needed recon
10. LA had a brain fart. You seem to have alot of them too.
11. There are 5 threads chaulk full of reasons. Take your pick. Also, nobody gives a damn.

WORF, simwiz, etc. He will never learn.

W0RF
08-26-2002, 11:12 PM
I agree SithMaster. At first I opposed Windu's idea for the gunship, complete with reasons. At this point my interest in this thread has devolved to the point where I no longer have any interest in entertaining his drivel any longer.

My perspective on this thread is now:
:bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored:

Kryllith
08-27-2002, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by Sithmaster_821
I've got a little math for you guys. Estimate your IQ (dont flatter yourself Windu). Now, for every time you posted on this thread, subtract 1 point (2 points if your post was in favor of the gunship UU). This is your current IQ. That puts many forumers (Windu, Viceroy, ect.) in the negatives.

Should people deduct 3 points for every time someone said something that was personally insulting...?

Kryllith

lukeiamyourdad
08-27-2002, 09:38 AM
Kryllith,allright I exagerate a little bit but don't get me wrong 'cause I want a gunship but not as UU. The republic is already strong enough. They have the most powerful jedis, the second best air force and the fastest production of troopers. I think that gives them a big advantage over many other civ(I mean they have good air and ground forces). I don't see why the republic needs another UU (unlike the rebels, the empire and the confederacy, a gunship UU would give them a huge advantage on everybody else, what I mean is you just won't win a war with probots, a-wings and animals while you could possibly win with gunships UU that can also carry a small amount of troopers).

pbguy1211
08-27-2002, 11:04 AM
sithmaster, you dont think an air speeder is an anti-mech?
all that thing is good for is ripping mechs.

Kryllith
08-27-2002, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
Kryllith,allright I exagerate a little bit but don't get me wrong 'cause I want a gunship but not as UU. The republic is already strong enough. They have the most powerful jedis, the second best air force and the fastest production of troopers. I think that gives them a big advantage over many other civ(I mean they have good air and ground forces). I don't see why the republic needs another UU (unlike the rebels, the empire and the confederacy, a gunship UU would give them a huge advantage on everybody else, what I mean is you just won't win a war with probots, a-wings and animals while you could possibly win with gunships UU that can also carry a small amount of troopers).
I don't mind the Republic being the only civilization to have the gunship, but I would like more diversity in the other civilizations as well. I'm all for having the other civilizations receive more in the way of UU's or in modifications of current units to make them unique (like giving the confed AAM the ability to fire at mechs/heavies). I do agree that by just giving the Republic another UU it could unbalance the game. Of course, it depends on how much is done to counterbalance the Republic strength.

Kryllith

lukeiamyourdad
08-27-2002, 11:35 AM
can't argue with that Kryllith:D :mob: :duel: :lsduel: :assult: :duel2: :sniper9: It has nothing to do with what i am saying im just trying out smilies:D

Sithmaster_821
08-28-2002, 05:26 PM
Should people deduct 3 points for every time someone said something that was personally insulting...?
I was going to do that but that would put us all in the negatives and that kinda ruins the point.

pbguy, i was a bit brief i know but i meant that the rebs get a strong anitmech unit cause they lack strong mechs.

pbguy1211
08-28-2002, 08:25 PM
i dunno... i kinda thought the air speeder WAS a strong anti-mech. it's avg vs other air and ground units, but it cuts through mechs each. ever try them vs heavy assaults?

pbguy1211
08-29-2002, 02:18 AM
*smacks self in head for not reading Sithmaster_821's post right...*
NOW i get it... DUH...

Darth Windu
08-29-2002, 05:11 AM
I am still not seeing any good argument apart from the standard 'it would make the republic too powerful'. Do you people not trust lucasarts to balance the unit?

Conversely, instead of making the gunship a UU, make the canon gunship the advanced fightert instead of the fast fighter, and give it the ability to carry troops, just as the AT-AT can fire at air.

The gunship is unique to the republic. There has never been anything else in the star wars universe that has the abilities of the gunship, or anything like it, so if it can be balanced, why not make it a UU for the republic?

W0RF
08-29-2002, 11:05 AM
You haven't seen any good arguments against the UU gunship?!?!? :swear: :swear: :swear: :swear: :swear: :swear: :swear: :swear: :swear: :swear:

How about:
1). The artwork already exists as a fighter
2). There is no NEED for the addition of another UU
3). Adding a UU of this caliber would seriously unbalance the gameplay, and a lot of work would be required to accout for it
4). Here is a short list of units that are unique in the Star Wars universe, but exist as generic units in the game:
X-Wing
Y-Wing
AT-PT
AT-ST (which is listed as a Mech Destroyer even tho in the movies they are really only attacking troops)
AT-TE
STAP
Bongo
TIEs of every sort

The thing you don't seem to understand about forensic debate is that you do not make some andom suggestion and dare us to prove you wrong. For an addition of this magnitude, the burden of proof is on YOU to tell us why it's a good idea, how to implement it, how to balance out the civ, and why things aren't fine just the way they are (hint: things ARE fine just the way they are).

lukeiamyourdad
08-29-2002, 11:13 AM
If you're so smart windu why don't YOU balance it out for us right here right now!

simwiz2
08-29-2002, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
If you're so smart windu why don't YOU balance it out for us right here right now!
Because he can't! :)


Windu
Do you people not trust lucasarts to balance the unit?
Quite honestly, if they actually listen to a moron like you, then no, I do not trust them to balance the unit.

Windu, people are posting very intelligent comments and you just reply with your same old "it's unique, it's unique!" crusade. :bored:

Please, just stfu.


Kryllith
Should people deduct 3 points for every time someone said something that was personally insulting...?
I guess I'm in the negatives then :(

DK_Viceroy
09-04-2002, 03:31 AM
I am 100 % against the gunship beig anything but the fast fighter as it is and if anyone thinkis i am anything like thet loony windu think again if we're gonna put in the gunship why do't we give the empire the ability to make death stars and star destroyers eh? that's what your idea about the gunship is like LA can't put in a hyped up fighter that fires about 5 rockets and then runs out of tehm the game does need a couple of tweeks i admi but NO NEW UNITS like giving AAT's the ability to fire at air targets to like in ep 1 just unique techs for things like this and Hailfire Droids firing at ground targets maybe rebel alliance getting B-Wing research they are already in game they are toybox units they maybe should be abnle to be built by the rebels just little things to make the game more like the movies











LISTEN WINDU WE DON@T WANT THE GUNSHIP IT IS NOT GOING IN THE GAME EVER GET IT THRU UR THICK SKULL NO NOEW UNITS

Kryllith
09-04-2002, 11:16 AM
First off, your "we", regardless of what you may think, does not speak for everyone on these forums. I'm interested in the gunship provided that any advantages that it may provide are balanced out (btw, I have noted a number of potential ways for balancing it, so those of you who complain that it can't be balanced should go back and reread old posts).

Second, aside from the occasional presentation of a highly overpowered ship-of-the-gods (which have generally been ignored, thankfully), no one is looking to produce some uberfighter in the gunship. In fact, Windu's initial presentation of the gunship was to tone down it's combat abilities to allow for it's troop-carrying capabilities. The closest I'd personally would consider it having fighter capabilities is to simply allow the current "gunship" (advanced fighter) to carry troops (countered by a limitation in amount and style of units it can carry, as well as a limiting of amount/style of units the regular transport can carry. And the reason for proposing this change would be that it wouldn't require the creation of an entirely new unit. If a new unit were created, it would most likely have slower speed than a fighter, less AA attack, similar air-to-ground, and no shields. It would have more hps then the fighter, say maybe 70-75, and would be more resistant to AA (like the current transport is) but relatively vulnerable to fighters.

Kryllith

W0RF
09-04-2002, 01:01 PM
The twofold problem with your idea:

1). it's based on the use of the fast fighter, which is a generic unit, and as far as I know, the engine won't allow you to alter the generics that drastically as to allow fighters to carry troops

2). your idea also doesn't coincide with Windu's lone voice crying in the wilderness that the gunship is not a fighter, but more like an assault helicopter (oh which there is of course no equivalent in SWGB) and thus should be a UU.

Gameplay > Realism. The point of the game is NOT to approximate the Star Wars universe, but to produce an RTS with people/places/things you might recognize from the movies, and a variety of different civs so that people could stage epic Rebel vs Empire or Repub vs. Confed battles. The immense wealth and variety of characters, races and ships/vehicles in the Star Wars universe make it next to impossible to portray them all in a realistic sense, much less with respect to their relative strengths/weaknesses (e.g. an RTS Death Star would never be blown up by a single X-Wing).

Put more simply, be glad the art's in the game, and enjoy the game for what it is, Star Wars art attached to Age of Kings.

Kryllith
09-04-2002, 01:26 PM
Since I've not had a hand in coding the game, I don't know how easy it is to make one unit capable of carrying another. For all we know, it might simply require the adjusting of a few variables. It's obvious that some play in generic units is capable, or the AT-AT wouldn't have been able to be upgraded to AA (and maybe it would require an upgrade to make the current fast fighter capable of carrying troops). Since I don't know though, there's no need to cease speculating the possibilites. :)

As for it being a helicopter rather than a fighter, yeah that pretty much require the creation of another unit.

As for gameplay vs. realism, I'm for both. The reason I like the idea of the gunship is because it throw a wrench into gameplay by forcing whoever plays the Republic to deal with the changes made to the way transporting troops works. Quite frankly, if it didn't, I wouldn't be the least bit interested in seeing the change. Will it work effectively? *shrugs* Who knows? Maybe LucasArts has already tried something similar and decided not to use it... or not. I'd like to keep the possibilities open though. :)

Kryllith

KoL ShadowJedi
09-04-2002, 01:39 PM
If we go for "realism" from the star wars universe, EVERY SINGLE UNIT SHOULD FIRE AT AIR

Oh cool my second post i believe on this thread :)

Im not a dumb **** like windu :) Oh dang does that take 3 points off?

Sithmaster_821
09-04-2002, 01:57 PM
Kryllith, what you ask for would require an insane amount of programming in the patch, not to mention another intense roud of balancing. One of the reasons the a-wing was added to the game was to differeniate rebs and reps, but giving the reps an air bonus added on to what they already have is just shooting yourself in the foot.

KoL, come on, post more. That way you'll be stupid with the rest of us.:D :D

Kryllith
09-04-2002, 03:43 PM
And for that matter, pretty much anything with missiles would be able to fire against ground targets. :) I'm for diversity though, not for making all of the civs capable of doing the same thing. As for the gunship, I really don't expect to see it in GB, in a new expansion pack or GB 2 perhaps (should LA decide to make either) but not as it currently sits. I definitely wouldn't expect them to do it just for a patch.

Kryllith

lukeiamyourdad
09-04-2002, 06:21 PM
Like some one else said ''make the gunship ADV Fighter being able to carry troops''. It could work but here are some suggestion for balancing it out:

-Carry one laser trooper and laser trooper only.
-Bomber speed
-No shields 60 HP

For once I agree....but for how long....

Darth Windu
09-05-2002, 06:31 AM
luke - you cant edit the adv fighter away from being a fighter to give it partial gunship abilites, that would unbalanced the game.

The gunship plan is for SW:GB 2, hopefully being put in as a Republic Unique Unit.

Darth Windu
09-05-2002, 06:40 AM
sithmaster - it would further differentiate the Rebel's and Republic. The A-wing is a high speed interceptor, the Gunship is a fairly slow assault transport.

If you want to see examples of what im talking about in the real world look up the Mi-24 (Gunship) and MiG-25/31 (A-wing)

The A-wing would be used for air superiority, while the Gunship would be used to assist ground forces.

PS: the term 'gunship' is used to describe every attack helicopter in existance, hence the term 'helicopter gunship'.

KoL ShadowJedi
09-05-2002, 11:02 AM
darth i think its time for u to stfu

_army_woTJ
09-05-2002, 11:57 AM
What if The clones with those huge guns in the movie cost 10 nova and 30 food and the republic gunship and the other ship that carries the mechs were created out of a new building like an advanced air base and it costs 100 ore and 200 carbon to make and the Gunship costs 250 nova and 250 food and it can carry 10 troopers (only troopers) and it shoots a bunch of shots then takes anout 10 seconds to recharge and its a building eater and troops eater and the other air units can carry 4 strike mechs or 2 mech destyoers or 1 assalt mech and has alot of hp but no attack

KoL ShadowJedi
09-05-2002, 12:06 PM
LOL, army, mate... that means imperials should have Lambda shuttle (same specs as gunship) and an advanced lambda ship like the same as the other one

Rebs shud get lambda - as if you have played the games they have em too and shud get sommet similar to the other thing

and so on..

Otherwise the republic will win all the time :)

simwiz2
09-05-2002, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
-Carry one laser trooper and laser trooper only.
-Bomber speed
-No shields 60 HP

For once I agree....but for how long....

Unfortunately the side effect to this is the ruin of the Republic... their air will be slower, and unshielded (extra hp will not compensate for a loss of shields). Their air will be "bad", giving them only one real strength, Jedi.

Kryllith
09-05-2002, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by simwiz2


Unfortunately the side effect to this is the ruin of the Republic... their air will be slower, and unshielded (extra hp will not compensate for a loss of shields). Their air will be "bad", giving them only one real strength, Jedi.
Course, if the Republic was the only civ to have Masters then it could just convert the opposing fighters. :) Seriously though, if the fighter was converted to be able to carry troops (instead of making a UU gunship) I'd just go ahead and leave its stats as it is already. Sure it will have shields, but it woule also be more suspectible to AA (with fighter stats rather than transports, since transports are more resistant to AA). Only thing I'd probably do is lower the amount regular transports could carry, and perhaps limit their carrying to non man-sized units (mechs, heavies, mounties, etc). I'd have the gunship capable of carrying 2 man-size units, be they laser/grenade/AA troopers, jedis, medics, or workers.

Kryllith

lukeiamyourdad
09-05-2002, 04:22 PM
Simwiz

Yes it does. But then I don't something able to end this discussion. Maybe it will create a downside to the republic but i said no shields for the gunship meaning that jedi starfighters and bombers will still get shields.

Darth Windu
09-06-2002, 07:51 AM
From the Star Wars databank
The Republic attack gunship was known in production as the "Jedi attack helicopter," clearly indicating its design roots. In much the same way that Director George Lucas used archival footage of World War II dogfights as inspiration for the starfighter battles in the original Star Wars, he turned to news footage of helicopter-troop deployment to help envision the clone trooper's gunships. The hunchback ****pit configuration was influenced by the the Russian Hind helicopter design.


More evidence of my theory...

Sithmaster_821
09-06-2002, 08:45 AM
Nobody cares that it was designed to look like a helicopter, Windu. ATATs were designed after cows and ATSTs were designed after chickens. Maybe the empire should be able to hunt ATATs and ATSTs for food because they look like farm animals.

The reps air, compared to other civs, is very balanced right now.

simwiz2
09-06-2002, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Darth Windu


More evidence of my theory...

What theory? AFAIK no one has said that the Gunship did not exist, or that its design did not resemble a helicopter. It was still used similar to the way fighters would be used.

You have an idea that the Gunship should be a UU, but your evidence does not support that idea. It supports that the Gunship existed in the movies and that its design is similar to a helicopter. I would assume most people here already know that.

Kryllith
09-06-2002, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by Sithmaster_821
Nobody cares that it was designed to look like a helicopter, Windu. ATATs were designed after cows and ATSTs were designed after chickens. Maybe the empire should be able to hunt ATATs and ATSTs for food because they look like farm animals.

Sounds like a good idea! Imagine how much food you could get from an ATAT... provided the cargo bay is loaded with food that is. :) Maybe they should allow salvaging in the game if you have workers scrounging for parts. Of course, people who are anti-turtle probably wouldn't care for this since technically the expanders would just be bringing the turtlers resources in the form of units...

Kryllith

pbguy1211
09-06-2002, 08:36 PM
Hey DarthMaulUK, could you close this thread too? Please?

simwiz2
09-06-2002, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Sithmaster_821
Maybe the empire should be able to hunt ATATs and ATSTs for food because they look like farm animals.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Darth Windu
09-06-2002, 11:44 PM
What im saying is that it is not a fighter. Sure, it has anti-air ability, so does the Mi-24 Hind, but their main role is to land troops into battle, and then prodive armed support for those troops, that is the whole idea of the gunship.

A fighter is an aircraft designed to gain and hold air superiority over the battlefield, nothing more, nothing less.

pbguy1211
09-07-2002, 04:28 AM
sigh....

then in theory, it would get slaughtered by fighters... so why bother having it? use a transport and guard it with fighters. DUH

lukeiamyourdad
09-07-2002, 02:24 PM
Even more simple...
Give the current transports defensive weapons...
The medium transport has some defensive weapons...
We don't see them...

Sithmaster_821
09-08-2002, 12:06 PM
It didnt seem like the gunships were giving cover. It looked like they plopped down a couple guys and left to go kick some droid butt. Also, most of the clones came from those big transport thingies, and the gunships acted as armed gaurds for the transports (see pbguy's post).
A fighter is an aircraft designed to gain and hold air superiority over the battlefield, nothing more, nothing less.
Which is essensially what the gunship did. This thread desparately needs closing.

Kryllith
09-09-2002, 11:08 AM
Way I saw it, they came in with cover fire, dropped off clone troopers, picked up Jedi and then moved elsewhere. Then they served a variety of functions, be it attacking ships that were trying to take off or tranporting Jedi/Troopers to various parts of the battleground...

Kryllith

W0RF
09-09-2002, 11:10 AM
For a ship whose primary job is to land troops, the Republic ship sure had a lot of lasers and rockets (well, two rockets) :D

You need to stop comparing the republic ship to real-life military vehicles, not because it is inaccurate, but becaue it is irrelevant. What freaking difference does it make if it acts like a fighter or a helicopter or a hot-air balloon? SWGB doesn't have helicopters and hot-air balloons and Romulan warbirds and Fokker triplanes. They have fighters. So, the Republic has a ship that shoots things? We'll make it a fighter!!! DUH!!!!!

Ships that primarily shoot things are fighters. Ships that primarily land troops are transports. Why should LA retool the entire Republic for a ship that shoots things and lands troops, when they already have ships that can do each of these things?

DMUK, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!!!

KoL ShadowJedi
09-09-2002, 02:58 PM
Yeah DMUK close this thread, WORF, it fires 2 missiles at a time, it has a lot more than that, unless u meant what i just said

Kryllith
09-09-2002, 03:22 PM
Both the Mech Destroyer and the Assault Mech fire and carry units (granted, the MD can only carry 1). Are they attack units or transports...

Kryllith

lukeiamyourdad
09-09-2002, 04:00 PM
The AT-AT transporting units is different.First it can't fly and second there isn't much of a use to it. My point is it can't fly and thus cannot infiltrate a base and unload his troopers(well not by air and it's too slow anyway to infiltrate...).

Sithmaster_821
09-09-2002, 06:47 PM
Ditto, what luke said. Assault mechs are too slow to be used as transports, so i use them as safe havens for injured units.

pbguy1211
09-10-2002, 03:42 AM
oh for the love of god, someone PLEASE close this thread!!!

Darth Windu
09-10-2002, 08:25 AM
The snowspeeder fly's and shoots, why isnt it the Rebel fighter?
The A-wing fly's and shoots things, why isnt it the Rebel fighter?
The Destroyer Droid is a good anti-infantry ground unit, why isnt it the TF strike mech?

Because they are unique, ie no other civ has an equivalent, hence the term Unique Unit. Now exactly what unit in Star Wars has the same abilities as the Gunship and the same role of Assault Transport? None, and that is the best reason as to why it should be a unique unit.

Kryllith
09-10-2002, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
The AT-AT transporting units is different.First it can't fly and second there isn't much of a use to it. My point is it can't fly and thus cannot infiltrate a base and unload his troopers(well not by air and it's too slow anyway to infiltrate...).
No, but it could keep troops protected while it laid down cover fire, then drop them off the way the gunship would.

Kryllith

W0RF
09-10-2002, 09:37 AM
KOL - when I said that it fired two rockets I was commenting on the gunshipin the movie that only shot down a few confeds, then "Destroy Dooku" "We're out of rockets!" Gee how convenient, I guess we need a swordfight now.

Windu - The Republic already have a UU, the Starfighter. The thing that you don't understand is that you have to convince us that it's worth changing the gunship FROM a Fast Fighter TO a UU, replace the art for the FF, and rebalance the whole civ to include a unit that doesn't really do anything that other units don't already do for them. The burden of proof is ON YOU, and you haven't come CLOSE to justifying the time, cost, and effort.

And so, I renew my plea, PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!

Kryllith
09-10-2002, 12:42 PM
Windu may say what he wants on this matter, but personally I've only to say this:

I've given means for balancing it; I've given reasons for change (affecting changes in strategy and gameplay); as for the third, numerous unique units are simply other units with minor changes. How much different is there between the way a Strike Mech and a Dark Trooper work, or Strike Mech and a Destroyer Droid, an Advanced Mounted Trooper and a Royal Crusader (or even a Berserker), or others. There are some differences in power (shielding of the Crusader and HHD, regen for the berserker, anti-mech bonus for the snow speeder, range for the a-wing, etc), but these differences are not so vast that they qualify these units as irreplaceable. Heck, the Gungan's unique is the only one that comes to mind as being truly unique (even though the Jedi Starfighter gets some jedi powers) since no other unit can generate a shield; the others are just modified upscaled version of other units.

Kryllith

pbguy1211
09-10-2002, 01:01 PM
well, the air speeder is like a flying mech destroyer... pretty unique... and the bersekers are just insane!

Kryllith
09-10-2002, 04:37 PM
Berserkers can be decent. I'm used to mowing them down with HHDs or fighters so they really didn't impressed me that much, but I guess it really depends on what they're attacking and how many are doing it (of course the regen is always nice to have). As for the air speeders; technically it would be a double redundant unit since the Rebels already have both fighters and mech destroyers. The air speeder is hardly needed, handy to have I admit since all mechs but 1 can't counter, but given units other units can do it's job... See the point? It's the same with the gunship. Sure a fighter escorted transport can transport unit and give it cover fire, but the gunship would be able to do both... hardly needed but can be handy to have, just like pretty much all the UUs.

Kryllith

lukeiamyourdad
09-10-2002, 06:44 PM
All right I get it(at least Krillith is convincing). You got a point but I am still against the gunship thing or they would have to get rid of the jedi starfighter.They are both quite strong UU and having two of them would unbalance the game. The A-Wing was not unbalancing the game 'cause it was weak and same with the probot.

Sithmaster_821
09-10-2002, 07:56 PM
Beserks chew through buildings and mechs and do a fairly decent job against other things.

Kryillth, the difference is that the airspeeder doesnt have to multitask. They dont have to perform two jobs at once. They dont replace fighters and have one purpose: to give the rebs a fast anti-mech unit because they have the worst mech destroyers in the game and would be killed by mechs every game without them. Prime example of gameplay>realism. The gunship is realism>gameplay and it is evident. It replaces strong republic units (trannie, fighter), has to perform both taks at once and and would be increbly hard to balance without it becoming a uber-unit or a useless unit.

Darth Windu
09-11-2002, 03:03 AM
Sithmaster - this isnt about replacing anything, it is about giving the republic a unique ability based on a unit.

Luke - remember, this is for SW:GB2. If the gunship was to be included in the game, the gunship would be part of the original balancing.

Back to the gunship, as i have said over and over again, there is really only one thing that must apply for a unit to be a unique unit, there must be no equivalent. There is no equivalent to the gunship. It's abilities include-
-ability to carry troops
-ability to provide covering fire and close support for those troops
-only atmospheric flight
-large crew to operate numerous weapons

Now tell me, why should the gunshup not be a UU while units such as the Destroyer Droid are?

Also, the gunship IS NOT A FIGHTER nor does it fit the requirements of a fighter.

pbguy1211
09-11-2002, 03:52 AM
CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!

Kryllith
09-11-2002, 09:35 AM
I'm not suggesting the gunship do the overall work of the fighters (gamewise we're talking about the gunship AA being pretty lousy so it would get chewed apart by fighters unless it outnumbers them, kind of like fighter vs. speeder). Against ground units, it might be as good as the fighter--decent against infantry and not so good vs. mechs/heavies.

Nor am I suggesting that it completely replace the Republic air transports, since it wouldn't be designed to carry the heavy units. Personally I think the gunship would be helpful for dropping the Republic's excellent Jedi down while blasting bounty hunters, or just transporting the Republics fast output laser troops and advanced medics. Basically I see it as a supplimentary unit, which is primarily what UUs are meant to be anyway.

Kryllith

KoL ShadowJedi
09-11-2002, 11:21 AM
Windu mate, give me the specs of your unique unit (the gunship) and how you would balance it with the rest of the civs.

W0RF
09-11-2002, 04:00 PM
Windu your post makes no sense (big shocker :drop2: )

First of all, if it's for your mythical GB2 then this entire thread is pointless anyway since they would use a much more current engine and could probably do a lot to alter all of the civs for more diversity.

Second of all, WTF does atmospheric flight have to do with making the gunship a UU? The game engine already assumes that every single aircraft in the game is courteous enough to fly low enough that units on the ground can shoot at them. Not to mention, does that mean the Republic would not get the gunship on space maps, since asteroids don't have enough gravity to retain an atmosphere? (The response to this question is obvious even to me, but those of you who figure it out will also realize that the quality of "atmospheric flight" is still of no use whatsoever.

What does the "large crew to operate numerous weapons" quality mean? What significance does that have? Is your gunship going to cost 5 units on the pop count?

<brainless babbling>"Also, the gunship IS NOT A FIGHTER nor does it fit the requirements of a fighter"</brainless babbling>

Yeah, it flies and it shoots at things. That is nothing like a fighter at all. :rolleyes: :bored: :eyeraise: :wstupid: :rolleye1:

Close this thread or feel the wrath of Vader. :atat: :atat: :atat: :atat:

Kryllith
09-11-2002, 05:22 PM
Don't mind me responding even though this was directed at Windu. :)

Originally posted by W0RF
this entire thread is pointless anyway since they would use a much more current engine and could probably do a lot to alter all of the civs for more diversity.
That hardly makes it worthless. The concept behind it (ie a transport with offense/defense capabilities) can work even if the engine and civs are altered. If this is to be a Star Wars RTS, then chances are there are going to be a fair number of similarities no matter how the final product works. Of course, it's possible that all civs might have an armed transport as well...

Second of all, WTF does atmospheric flight have to do with making the gunship a UU? The game engine already assumes that every single aircraft in the game is courteous enough to fly low enough that units on the ground can shoot at them. Not to mention, does that mean the Republic would not get the gunship on space maps, since asteroids don't have enough gravity to retain an atmosphere? (The response to this question is obvious even to me, but those of you who figure it out will also realize that the quality of "atmospheric flight" is still of no use whatsoever.
I was actually curious about this as well. I know a some people have suggested ideas towards an SWGB2 combining both space tactical combat and land conquest. If this is the case, then the role of a flying land-only transport could be relivant, especially if armed-transports aren't common among civs. If nothing else it would prevent the gunship from transporting troops to and from planets.

What does the "large crew to operate numerous weapons" quality mean? What significance does that have? Is your gunship going to cost 5 units on the pop count?
Ok, I've no idea here unless he's looking to give it more weaponry. Unless he's just pointing out how this makes the unit different from a 1-man fighter and doesn't plan on making this a part of gameplay.

Yeah, it flies and it shoots at things. That is nothing like a fighter at all.
Thanks, you just supported my earlier argument that the gunship wouldn't be designed to fill the role of the fighter.

Kryllith

PS. For all of those griping about closing the thread, you could just ignore it...

Darth Windu
09-12-2002, 07:29 AM
The points i made about only atmospheric flight and a large crew is that ITS NOT A FIGHTER (which has a one-person crew and can fly in space) and that IT IS UNIQUE.

kol shadowjedi - im not a game designer

However, i will say that in terms of weapons, i would like to see the gunship being rather poor against air (like the speeder) with a more rounded attack ability (ie worse vs infantry than fighter, worse then speeder vs mechs/heavies, better then speeder vs troops, better then fighter vs mechs/heavies)

But then that would all be up to lucasarts.

Kryllith
09-12-2002, 09:20 AM
You know, I think the extra crew compliment might actually have a place as well. I'm totally against the idea of the gunship as an uber-attack unit (ie multiple individual-targetting lasers and missiles) in SWGB. But who knows? Chances are if a SWGB II is released, it will probably be closer to the release of Ep III. If a highly improved engine is produced, it may be feasible to present the gunship as a GUNship (in addition to carrying troops). Of course, numerous other units, especially mechs, may also have multiple attacks. Just have to wait and see what the engine is capable of, I guess.

Kryllith

W0RF
09-12-2002, 04:29 PM
http://www.forumpix.com/content/stupidpost/images/threaddearGodkid.jpg

Sithmaster_821
09-12-2002, 06:29 PM
Thanks, you just supported my earlier argument that the gunship wouldn't be designed to fill the role of the fighter.
Um...I think he was being a little sarcastic there. Read his thing in context.

kol shadowjedi - im not a game designer
Its very very obvious. Game designers deal with a thing called balance, something that you, after more than four flippin months have yet to grasp.

Kryllith, man, your points are good, and maybe your a little disillusioned, but the more you argue, the longer windu gets to bask in his infamy.

KoL ShadowJedi
09-12-2002, 07:30 PM
sithmaster was that based at me?

Windu u obviously thought this through i asked for the specs so i cud agree with you or throw it back in ur face

Sithmaster_821
09-12-2002, 08:24 PM
It was directed to Windu. He doesnt have the specs, doesnt have a clue what the gunship would be like only that LA will balance it fo him.

simwiz2
09-12-2002, 10:43 PM
err, never mind wrong thread :o

W0RF
09-12-2002, 11:39 PM
http://www.forumpix.com/content/whocares/images/care2.jpg

MadrixTF
09-13-2002, 04:23 AM
Windu, i think that is a very relevant point - the poll is biased - and that's why i haven't voted at all! I would have voted that it stays as it is - but this wasn't an option???

I think i could be missing something here - does the Republic Gunship have special abilites or U/G that the other Civs don't have?

CorranSec -

"5. It should be weaker (in HP terms) than the transport and slower than the fighter, otherwise both would be outdated. "

I don't understand how a Gunship could possibly have weaker HP than an Air Transport - are u mad or am i missing something here?

MadrixTF
09-13-2002, 04:28 AM
Sorry - i was refering to the last two replies on page 1 (CorranSec and Windu)

MadrixTF
09-13-2002, 04:32 AM
simwiz2 for president! - Windu for the slammer! - This thread is useless - try making sure that your Poll is NOT biased before you start a discussion of stupid ideas - at least then we can say NO to them!

Darth Windu
09-13-2002, 05:40 AM
Actually the last option was supposed to be 'leave the gunshp as it is' but i wrote it wrong, and since i cant edit the poll there is no way for me to change it. Also, please try and keep posts down to a minimum, there is no need for three consecutive posts. Also, the gunship has the unique ability of being able to transport troops and provide fire-support at the same time.

Sithmaster - as i have pointed out, i am not a game designer. I come up with idea's, as many people do, but in the end, lucasarts would do the balancing so the final gunship configuration if it was made a UU would be out of my hands.

Kryllith
09-13-2002, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Sithmaster_821
Um...I think he was being a little sarcastic there. Read his thing in context.
Probably yes, but I'll take it literally anyway considering that both bombers and air cruisers fly and shoot things, but who here considers them fighters?

Kryllith, man, your points are good, and maybe your a little disillusioned, but the more you argue, the longer windu gets to bask in his infamy.
*grins* Well just argue against me then :) Actually I figure he'll continue arguing anyway, so I might as well too (sorry, I just love to argue). Whether I'm disillusioned... could be... though I don't think so yet, and even if/when I do I'll probably just play Devil's Avocate.

Kryllith

Sithmaster_821
09-14-2002, 07:58 AM
keep posts down to a minimum
Umm...Windu, shouldnt you do the same? Also when you unearth your ideas in a public forum, they should atleast have some semblence of balance (actually it should be pretty balanced to fit the current game).
Well just argue against me then
I thought i have been. Oh, well maybe i was dreaming or something :D.
simwiz2 for president
Damn you simwiz, you always get a fan club:rolleyes: ;).
Martix, as opposed to posting three posts, you should edit your original one.

lukeiamyourdad
09-14-2002, 10:40 AM
It seems that all of us love to argue so we'll probably end up lawyers or something in politics.

pbguy1211
09-14-2002, 05:34 PM
except windu... 'cause he's an idiot :D

Sithmaster_821
09-14-2002, 07:29 PM
except windu... 'cause he's an idiot
Au contrer, many politicians are idoits:D :D

lukeiamyourdad
09-15-2002, 02:50 PM
Au contrer, many politicians are idoits

Many????? MOST if not all!!!!!!

CorranSec
09-18-2002, 06:26 PM
This thread seems to be dead.
I wonder what happened?
Anyway, some people will probably think that death of this thread is a good thing. Some won't. Oh well.

pbguy1211
09-18-2002, 08:53 PM
DIE! DIE! DIE! MY DARLING!

Kryllith
09-18-2002, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by Sithmaster_821
I thought i have been. Oh, well maybe i was dreaming or something :D.

I meant exclusively with me. ;) Or other pro-gunship people aside from Windu seeing as you two seem to always be at each others throats.

Kryllith

Kryllith
09-18-2002, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by CorranSec
This thread seems to be dead.
I wonder what happened?
Anyway, some people will probably think that death of this thread is a good thing. Some won't. Oh well.
I'm still waiting to see how many people consider the bomber and the air cruiser a fighter since they both fly and shoot... :)

Kryllith

PS. Bah! Stupid 90 second rule...

jedi3112
09-19-2002, 07:35 AM
I agree with luke, the gunship would do best as a new unit class, called armed transport. If any1 ever played X-Wing alliance you must know about Imperial and Rebel assault transport, wich are in modern life actually combinations of the AH64 Apache attack helicopter and the CH47 Chinook transport helicopter. I than think the gunship should have a high attack vs ground units, it can hover so it's more accurate, and a low attack vs air, it can't move very fast and a Apache with all its firepower still is no match for a F16. Than the gunship should be able to carry troops but only laser and maybe jedi, but nothing big. It should also be more resistant to aa from the ground. Personally I also think some civs should have it shielded. It should also be able to fire @ multiple targets, make it quite slow moving but still faster than normal transport. Have some changes for each civ though

Kryllith
09-19-2002, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by jedi3112
I. I than think the gunship should have a high attack vs ground units, it can hover so it's more accurate, and a low attack vs air, it can't move very fast and a Apache with all its firepower still is no match for a F16.
This is an interesting point which has been overlooked. Of course, given the dynamics of SWGB, it's possible it's simply been ignored given that all units have to stop before they fire. If SWGB II (or it's equivalent) made fighters strafe like they do in the movies, then one of the unique qualities of the Gunship (or similiar armed transport) would be hovering and firing. I can think of a number of ways this could affect gameplay. A hovering gunship would be an easier target, but also have better accuracy, while fighters/bombers would be harder to hit but perhaps poorer aim. Additionally, the Gunship could hover just outside the range of turrets to attack troops. While fighters/bombers would have to keep moving and putting them in jeopardy of the turrets more often (of course, since they could fire while their flying...)

Kryllith

simwiz2
09-19-2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Kryllith

This is an interesting point which has either being overlooked. Of course, given the dynamics of SWGB, it's possible it's simply been ignored given that all units have to stop before they fire. If SWGB II (or it's equivalent) made fighters strafe like they do in the movies, then one of the unique qualities of the Gunship (or similiar armed transport) would be hovering and firing. I can think of a number of ways this could affect gameplay. A hovering gunship would be an easier target, but also have better accuracy, while fighters/bombers would be harder to hit but perhaps poorer aim. Additionally, the Gunship could hover just outside the range of turrets to attack troops. While fighters/bombers would have to keep moving and putting them in jeopardy of the turrets more often (of course, since they could fire while their flying...)

Kryllith

You're right, this could work in SWGB 2, but I don't think it would be good to force helicoper-like units on all the civs. It could be good with unique unit sets, and accurate fire could be one of it's strengths.

Kryllith
09-19-2002, 03:11 PM
I was thinking of it for the Gunship specifically as a unique unit, but I know a number of people suggested having armed transports for all the civs so it could apply there too. Personally I'd prefer only 1 or 2 UU having it since it would futher create diversity.

Kryllith

lukeiamyourdad
09-20-2002, 09:53 AM
I said that a hundred years ago and it is now that people start to consider it's a nice idea.

some civ should get it only so we don't have a forced unit like the gungan armed air transport!

KoL ShadowJedi
09-20-2002, 11:15 AM
well if republic gets gunship as a UU the empire shud have the AT-AT removed from mech and make it a UU (Even Stronger)

Sithmaster_821
09-20-2002, 08:29 PM
as you two seem to always be at each others throats.
No, its simwiz and windu who at each others throats. I just sit here and egg them on.

Kryllith
09-20-2002, 08:40 PM
hehe, I must have mistaken the egging for throat-jabbing. ;) I figure Windu and Simwiz were going for all out war. :)

Kryllith

lukeiamyourdad
09-21-2002, 08:58 PM
hehe, I must have mistaken the egging for throat-jabbing. I figure Windu and Simwiz were going for all out war.
but...who is gonna win that war?

Sithmaster_821
09-21-2002, 09:17 PM
Simwiz from the looks of it:D

pbguy1211
09-21-2002, 09:35 PM
sure... simwiz can win a war with windu...
but he still cant play CC at fast speed or w/o an explored map! :eek:

Sithmaster_821
09-21-2002, 10:50 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

simwiz2
09-22-2002, 04:55 PM
I prefer what settings I prefer, you don't like it then find another RM game if you can :p

Sith got you off easy. I was going to post something much... meaner, but Sith talked me out of it. :)

Sithmaster_821
09-22-2002, 05:00 PM
I prefer what settings I prefer, you don't like it then find another RM game if you can
In other words he not adaptable and knows only one strat.:lol:

simwiz2
09-22-2002, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Sithmaster_821

In other words he not adaptable and knows only one strat.:lol:

First, let's clear something up. I could beat you at this game any settings, any speed, any map. I don't like fast speed because IMO it is not as fun and it is a pain to manage battles and to click on units, but I could easily beat you or pbguy on it. I am used to normal, and you are used to fast. I like explored because I hate the micro of exploring the map, you like unexplored. They are just different preferences on how the game is most fun.

When I host a game and it specifically says normal speed explored map, and illiterate morons wait until after launch to say "wait, normal, i thought it was fast, change it or i leave" that will not make me change it, it will simply give me contempt for their inability to read. I don't care if everyone else wants fast, I don't care if you are gleefully giggling on the phone as you join pbguy in spamming FAST NOW just to annoy me, it stays as normal. If everyone leaves, I find 3 other people and launch again.

Okay maybe that was a bit harsh but hopefully you get the point. :) You were giggling something about "bringing this [the game] up on the forums" but I didn't think you would really post it. Yet you went and instigated another flame war. Let's get this thread back on topic :)

Sithmaster_821
09-22-2002, 05:10 PM
I just sit here and egg them on.
Case in point:D :D :D :D :D

pbguy1211
09-23-2002, 01:21 AM
And I'm saying you could NOT beat me in a normal game, at even NORMAL speed on an unexplored map. It's part of the game. Period. Only noobs play with explored maps.

MadrixTF
09-23-2002, 02:29 AM
simwiz2 @ pbguy1211

If you want to settle this debate about who can beat who at what settings, then just go ahead and play it out - then at least you will both know the answer to that question...

Sithmaster

I see you changed your picture ID - any reason for that - i preferred the previous one - but i suppose change can be refreshing sometimes...?

simwiz2
09-23-2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by pbguy1211
And I'm saying you could NOT beat me in a normal game, at even NORMAL speed on an unexplored map. It's part of the game. Period. Only noobs play with explored maps.

Whether the map is explored or not will not make that big of a difference. Since the settings were what I am used to, I admit I may have had a slight advantage, but that game was NOT close. You lost horribly. I don't remember if it was me or Sith who rushed you, but if Sith rushed you successfully then I can rush you even easier. And if I rushed you, then I already beat you. You were defeated early, with no more struggle than a high inter has taking out a low rook. Only morons call those who are better than them n00bs.

Give me a few days to get re-used to unexplored, and then we can have a 1v1 or 2v2 if u want. You think you're so good, then prove it. Just try to actually play the game out this time, rather than resigning after 20 minutes as soon as troops appear near your base and proceeding to cry about the speed.

And having a slower speed does NOT cause someone to do worse. So no whining when the game is normal speed. Playing on normal is a habit left over from when I had a slow piece of **** computer, and it was impossible to click on things when the speed was fast. Now that I have played both speeds on my new computer, I still find normal more fun.

Pbguy, you are the very definition of a sore loser. You get beat, you whine about the speed and settings. If you don't like the settings then don't play in my game! If you get beat, say gg and get over it, don't make lame excuses! Hopefully in any future games there will be no crying when you lose. You are the only one who would lose a game and then bring it up on forums and then call the person who beat you a n00b. It defies common sense: if you lose you don't brag about it because you don't have anything to brag about, and the person who beat you (easily) is obviously better than you.

Sithmaster_821
09-23-2002, 07:59 PM
The gunship thread is on its 7th page now:eek:
And none of it makes sense!:D Most of it is windu's innane drivel and a whole bunch of nothing, plus a flame war or two
Whether the map is explored or not will not make that big of a difference. Since the settings were what I am used to, I admit I may have had a slight advantage, but that game was NOT close. You lost horribly. I don't remember if it was me or Sith who rushed you, but if Sith rushed you successfully then I can rush you even easier. And if I rushed you, then I already beat you. You were defeated early, with no more struggle than a high inter has taking out a low rook. Only morons call those who are better than them n00bs.
Give me a few days to get re-used to unexplored, and then we can have a 1v1 or 2v2 if u want. You think you're so good, then prove it. Just try to actually play the game out this time, rather than resigning after 20 minutes as soon as troops appear near your base and proceeding to cry about the speed.
And having a slower speed does NOT cause someone to do worse. So no whining when the game is normal speed. Playing on normal is a habit left over from when I had a slow piece of **** computer, and it was impossible to click on things when the speed was fast. Now that I have played both speeds on my new computer, I still find normal more fun.
Pbguy, you are the very definition of a sore loser. You get beat, you whine about the speed and settings. If you don't like the settings then don't play in my game! If you get beat, say gg and get over it, don't make lame excuses! Hopefully in any future games there will be no crying when you lose. You are the only one who would lose a game and then bring it up on forums and then call the person who beat you a n00b. It defies common sense: if you lose you don't brag about it because you don't have anything to brag about, and the person who beat you (easily) is obviously better than you.
Only simwiz would...:D
pbguy, i would advise not responding. Certain people take things way too seriously, if you respond he'll have another hissy fit.:) :)

simwiz2
09-23-2002, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by Sithmaster_821
pbguy, i would advise not responding. Certain people take things way too seriously, if you respond he'll have another hissy fit.:) :)

I would seriously advise shutting up and minding your own damn business. You always have this inane fascination with starting flame wars, don't you?

Sithmaster_821
09-23-2002, 08:34 PM
See what did i tell you: hissy fit.:p :p :p

pbguy1211
09-24-2002, 02:23 AM
i'm not too worried about "thewiz"... the only time he ever beat me in a game is when your were on his team and you f'd me up pretty good. he had nothing to do with it, but seems to feel otherwise for some reason. go figure.

and i repeat, only noobs play with explored maps. period.

CorranSec
09-24-2002, 02:26 AM
Heh. Sith is sorta right. None of this is making sense, but the main point is we're not talking about the gunship anymore.
Well, unless Windu comes back and boots us all back into frantic debate.
*immediately regrets saying that, as things I say have a tendency to come true*

You are the only one who would lose a game and then bring it up on forums and then call the person who beat you a n00b.
Hang on.... wasn't there some guy in simwiz's thread about the Jedi Starfighter roaching tactic who did that? :p

hissy fit
Arg. Sith, you really do seem to enjoy loading a gun and putting it in front of two people who don't like each other. Figuratively speaking, of course... though I have no doubt you've done that in some game or another. ;)

simwiz2
09-24-2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by pbguy1211
i'm not too worried about "thewiz"... the only time he ever beat me in a game is when your were on his team and you f'd me up pretty good. he had nothing to do with it, but seems to feel otherwise for some reason. go figure.

I f'd your ally up pretty good, despite the fact that my mom kept coming in every 5 minutes to make sure I did my homework. And why do you desperately cling to the belief that you would have done any better against a rush from me than from Sith, or that you would have done any better against my rush than your ally did? Sith and I had about the same score when the game was over, and you and your ally had similar scores.

Sith happened to be closer to you, so he removed your base. I happened to be closer to your ally, so I removed his base. Since neither one of us is better than the other, you would have lost regardless of who rushed you.

Corran, I don't dislike pbguy, but Sith has this inane fascination with starting flame wars, and he convinced pbguy to fabricate his brilliant first post (which I let go by because it was so stupid), but Sith egged it on until it reached its current state with 3 people arguing over who is a n00b and what settings are n00bish and who is better, etc.

MadrixTF
09-25-2002, 06:31 AM
Please, please someone close this thread - it died on page 1 already!

Sithmaster_821
09-25-2002, 09:17 PM
It died four threads ago.

Simwiz, his ally was a bunch of houses and a command center. Yet it still took you forever to destroy it. Pbguy and i had a pretty massive t2, battle, followed by an equally massive t3 battle between him and his ally's remenants and me. I only won because i was able to plop a fort down on the battlefeild. Our scores were not equal, and pb's and his allies scores were not equal. On saturday, when pbguy hands you your a$$ ill be right there laughing.