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Pada-Wan
07-17-2002, 01:49 PM
I was thinking bout this but in the SW movies hate is used even by good jedi. dont jedi have to control their emotions?

Luke was going mad at the end of ROTJ
Obi-Wan seemed to sorta lose it at the end of the PM againt maul


Vadar was right, only Luke's hatered could destory Vadar.

The only jedis that fought under controlled emotion were obi-wan in epi 2, qui-gon in ep 1, obi-wan in ep 4, luke in ep 5, and guess what.....ALL of them were losers/died when they had their emotions under control. So what do yall think?


ps.forgot yoda in epi 2 :-\ well yoda is in a class by himself! and mace windu wasnt really fighting anyone in a duel.

Darth Groovy
07-17-2002, 01:58 PM
And Anakin made beef jerky out of a whole camp of Tusken Raiders.

Pada-Wan
07-17-2002, 03:02 PM
I know, but that was a slaughter, not a duel with another jedi/sith

NerfYoda
07-17-2002, 03:56 PM
I believe Luke was going nuts at the end of ROTJ because he was walling to the dark side. After he cut off his dad's hand he realized what he was doing.

darthbong
07-17-2002, 04:08 PM
What happens is they start to tap into the dark side, BUT always calm themselves before winning, in ROTJ lukes stops himself (like NerfYoda said ), and the starwars.com databank says (in regard to obi-wan in ep1)
Maul killed Qui-Gon with a well-placed saber strike. Kenobi, enraged, attacked Maul. This barrage was deflected by Maul who used Obi-Wan's touching of the dark side as a conduit for a Force attack; using the Force, Maul pushed Obi-Wan into a deep mining pit. Kenobi held onto an outcropping for dear life. Calming himself by calling upon the light side of the Force, Kenobi was able to surprise Maul, and cleave him in half with his saber.

see its the light side that causes them to win ;)

Kstar__2
07-17-2002, 05:12 PM
lets discuss about the deeper meaning of it.........

man, it just means how close the light and dark side are to eich other, so that you really have to learn to control it

JrKASperov
07-17-2002, 06:15 PM
I think the reason all those light using jedi lost was just because their saberskills sucked compared to the darksiders... If they just trained more, they would be better..

Breton
07-17-2002, 06:51 PM
Jedis are not trained in batteling against other skilled in jedi arts. After all, they thougth the siths were gone for good for a thousand years, so why should they train to beat them?

Kurgan
07-17-2002, 07:08 PM
That's why I thought it was cool that they came up with "Dark Rage" for JK2. It's the whole "using your anger" against your enemy... hate making you powerful. Granted, it's only with Dark Jedi, but you get the idea. ; )

leXX
07-17-2002, 07:35 PM
Everyone knows that the more angry you get during a fight, the less likely you are to win. This is why boxers etc use psychological warfare before a fight. The calmer you are, the more in control of your actions you are and less likely to make a mistake.

Hanch Saode
07-17-2002, 07:37 PM
Regarding Anakin, you can't compare his slaugther of the cmap with the duel victories of Obi and Luke....Anakin was first and foremost only a Padawan...secondly, he was pretty old when he started his training, so he had been influenced by alot of other feelings....that in the end made him go "nuts"

Clem
07-17-2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by lexx
Everyone knows that the more angry you get during a fight, the less likely you are to win. This is why boxers etc use psychological warfare before a fight. The calmer you are, the more in control of your actions you are and less likely to make a mistake.

i dont think thats entirely true

leXX
07-17-2002, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Darth Clem


i dont think thats entirely true

explain

Clem
07-17-2002, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by lexx


explain

cant really

rut-wa jodar
07-17-2002, 07:51 PM
did anyone notice in episode II when obi-wan drove his saber into that beast, it looked like he actually enjoyed it .

leXX
07-17-2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by Darth Clem


cant really

hmmm

Clem
07-17-2002, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by lexx


hmmm

its complicated

greedo626
07-17-2002, 07:56 PM
when people get upset they make mistakes. it's in Max Payne. I think what lexx said is true. it makes sense.

leXX
07-17-2002, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Darth Clem


its complicated

Are you saying you cannot express your thoughts into words? I would have thought you would have developed the skills required for intellectual conversation by now!

leXX
07-17-2002, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by greedo626
when people get upset they make mistakes. it's in Max Payne. I think what lexx said is true. it makes sense.

Thank you :D

Clem
07-17-2002, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by lexx


Are you saying you cannot express your thoughts into words? I would have thought you would have developed the skills required for intellectual conversation by now!

:p

Divine Spirit
07-17-2002, 09:43 PM
There is a difference between hate and enthusiasm.

At the end of RotJ i think Luke was very enthusiastic...and after a while he refused to fight anymore so it couldnt be a lot of hatred in his fighting.

Obi-Wan in TPM was fighting out of despare and hatred. Despare at losing his friend and hatred of Maul so i suppose he was using hatred a bit! - who could blame him!

SharaFett
07-17-2002, 09:59 PM
i'm glad someone put up this thread- i've been thinking about this for a while. why is it that a jedi cannot defeat a sith using the light side?

well, i have given this much thought.
they tap into the dark side because they arent that well tuned into the force. luke, anakin, and obiwan were not experienced jedi. and as yoda says, the dark side is easier to tap in. the dark side will give you great powers- but only for a limited time (as long as you're enraged). but this power eventually breaks you down. a jedi that's fully in tune with the force, imo, doesnt need to tap into the dark side to defeat a sith. the point of being on the light side isnt to be able to tap safelly into the dark side once or twice.

for example, YODA. what more do i have to say? he's the ideal jedi. do you see him tapping into the dark side? and quigon does not tap into the dark side when he fights. keep in mind, he was around 50-60 years of age in tmp. when he was younger, he was considered to be the best with the saber. but he didnt tap into the dark side, either.

obi
07-17-2002, 10:04 PM
Ok, first of all, I would like to say, Fighting really fast to win is not hate. Gritting your teeth is not hate, and being powerful is not hate.


Obi-wan watched his friend and mentor die. He got a mean look on his face. the look said "Ok, I'll get you for that one."
What else would you expect? Did you want Obi-wan to say "It's ok. I don't really care that you just put a hole in my pal."


As for Luke, He was fighting because he had to defend himself. Sure, he went crazy on Vader in the end, but he cought himself and stopped. I don't think it was hate that was fueling him though. I think that the Love for his father, and the Light-side he felt in him was what fueled Luke. Luke got so desperate to save his father, he decided to show Vader what the dark side can do to a man, and make him see himself as for who he really was.

Darth Talliusc
07-17-2002, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by Pada-Wan
I was thinking bout this but in the SW movies hate is used even by good jedi. dont jedi have to control their emotions?

Luke was going mad at the end of ROTJ
Obi-Wan seemed to sorta lose it at the end of the PM againt maul


Vadar was right, only Luke's hatered could destory Vadar.

The only jedis that fought under controlled emotion were obi-wan in epi 2, qui-gon in ep 1, obi-wan in ep 4, luke in ep 5, and guess what.....ALL of them were losers/died when they had their emotions under control. So what do yall think?


ps.forgot yoda in epi 2 :-\ well yoda is in a class by himself! and mace windu wasnt really fighting anyone in a duel.


i can agree with most of that, but not luke being under controlled emotions in ep5, sorry but theres no way.

Breton
07-18-2002, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Pada-Wan
I was thinking bout this but in the SW movies hate is used even by good jedi. dont jedi have to control their emotions?

Luke was going mad at the end of ROTJ
Obi-Wan seemed to sorta lose it at the end of the PM againt maul


Vadar was right, only Luke's hatered could destory Vadar.

The only jedis that fought under controlled emotion were obi-wan in epi 2, qui-gon in ep 1, obi-wan in ep 4, luke in ep 5, and guess what.....ALL of them were losers/died when they had their emotions under control. So what do yall think?


ps.forgot yoda in epi 2 :-\ well yoda is in a class by himself! and mace windu wasnt really fighting anyone in a duel.


Obi-Wan in ep2 lost, but he was fighting a superior and much more trained opponent.

Qui-Gon in ep1 fought controlled and therefore owned Maul until the hiltsmashing.

Obi-Wan in ep4 did not lose, but comitted suicide.

Luke in ep5 was far from a Jedi, he was still just a moisture farmer with a lightsaber.

00M-187
07-18-2002, 01:26 AM
Sometimes when i get really mad in duals or ffa, I pretend (Dont laugh) I use my anger to my advantage, and then I whoop some ass, Its cool, i can feel the darkside, (again dont laugh) lol

Wait a minute.... Star wars isnt real?

techsurfer
07-18-2002, 02:14 AM
The two examples given were of two jedi padawans. Luke started to give in to his anger that's why he stopped when he cut off Vader's hand as he realised what he had done so refused to fight any longer. Obi-Wan wanted revenge for Qui-Gon's death so went in with anger and ended up nearly losing. It was only when he clamed himself that he was able to defeat Maul. Another example of this is Anakin fighting Dooku - he rushes in impatient and not calmed and he ends up losing his arm even though he is the chosen one so should be able to kick Dooku's ass!

leXX
07-18-2002, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by 00M-187
Sometimes when i get really mad in duals or ffa, I pretend (Dont laugh) I use my anger to my advantage, and then I whoop some ass, Its cool, i can feel the darkside, (again dont laugh) lol

Wait a minute.... Star wars isnt real?

lmfao

Divine Spirit
07-18-2002, 03:05 AM
Originally posted by 00M-187
Sometimes when i get really mad in duals or ffa, I pretend (Dont laugh) I use my anger to my advantage, and then I whoop some ass, Its cool, i can feel the darkside, (again dont laugh) lol

Wait a minute.... Star wars isnt real?

im sorry buit there really isnt a way of NOT laughing :D

:lol: :rofl: :lol:

remember: im laughing with you and not at you :)

Reb Starblazer
07-18-2002, 03:08 AM
I believe that hate, and anger, and all other emotions can be controlled. And if they can be controlled, then they can be used.
So far you don't really see anyone controlling their anger, you see more of it controlling them. Jedi's don't control their emotions, they push them back, lock them away. Sith, give in to hate and anger, and let it fuel them. See, none of them really control(in the truest sense of the word) their emotions, they either get rid of them, or let them run rampant. Luke, when fighting Vader, gave in to his anger, and became more powerful. But did you see him fight? No finesse, no stragety, just pure, unbridled hate. Eventually he realised his folly(I bet that if the Emporer didn't say anything, Luke would of killed Vader and gone to the Dark Side), and returned to the Light Side. Being a Jedi is like walking a tightrope, one false move...
In summary, anger makes you strong, but calmness, makes you think better. You wait patiently for an opening, instead of swinging like crazy trying to make one, and leaving yourself open.

And I agree with Lexx as well. I'm a Olympic style wrestler, and as such, emotions do play a part. Some people like to get ready by "syching" themselves up. I, however, prefer to calmly walk out onto the mat. Staying calm gives me a clear head, lets me see takedowns, escapes, counters, things I probably wouldn't see if I was angry. That's not to say I don't get angry though.:D If someone hits me across the face(it happens, trust me), or the like, I get very p'd off, very quickly. Very often, that person will find themselves in a world of pain shortly afterwords(I don't normally like to do those moves, but, meh, fight fire with fire).
Getting angry makes me stronger( thank you adrenaline:D), but it also makes me careless, which is normally why I try to calm down after that extra strength isn't needed. This is pretty much what I was saying above, except this relates to the real world, not the Star Wars universe. Just my two credits.

Camus
07-18-2002, 03:31 AM
Ive been thinking about this sence I was 8... dont crush it completely... Okay... Im a E4-NH Obi-Wan pulls up his saber and lets Vader strick him down... Why??? He could have easily jumped threw the door and smashed the switch as he goes threw and ran off with luke and them... but he choose to stay and die... I believe he knew something... something like if he killed vader... eventually luke would have killed him and been the only Jedi left... We know Obi sent Luke to Yoda... So... maybe Obi Knew kill vader and die by luke or die by vader and let luke choose the light or the dark side...

Its all in theory of course and please dont flame me to death over this one... :S

Darth Talliusc
07-18-2002, 03:52 AM
obi wan let himself die so that he could give luke advice in death, the whole idea of jedi disappearing and helping beyond death is special, notice that qui gon didnt do it, BUT he did yell at anakin in the tattooine scene in ep2 "no, anakin NOOOOO!" this is very significant because it deals with more prophecy and the people on starwars.com (the official people not just the fans) have told us that this will be explained in ep3.


just a theory of mine but, if anakin was bringing balance to the force (him and sid, obiwan and yoda 2v2) and obi wan knew this, he wanted luke to be a jedi but that would upset the balance, one of the jedi had to die for luke to become one, and obiwan knew that yoda was a better teacher then him (look how bad he messed anakin up) so he let himself get struck down. just that simple.

Divine Spirit
07-18-2002, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by Reb_Starblazer
And I agree with Lexx as well. I'm a Olympic style wrestler, and as such, emotions do play a part.

wow! will you be in Manchester in a month or twos time? :)

Guardian Omega
07-18-2002, 03:52 AM
In all the times I used anger in a fight, I noticed two things........

Power and fanatical will..............

With power you get to deal more powerful blows and more......
With fanatical will, you won't care about most stuff, like pain, so you mostly ignore it and put all into your task, in this case, kicking ass.........

Of course I still prefer the calm mind, but there's times when it comes handy. (Helps if you plan ahead, then you use anger, but that's too risky......)

Breton
07-18-2002, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by Darth Talliusc
obi wan let himself die so that he could give luke advice in death, the whole idea of jedi disappearing and helping beyond death is special, notice that qui gon didnt do it, BUT he did yell at anakin in the tattooine scene in ep2 "no, anakin NOOOOO!" this is very significant because it deals with more prophecy and the people on starwars.com (the official people not just the fans) have told us that this will be explained in ep3.


just a theory of mine but, if anakin was bringing balance to the force (him and sid, obiwan and yoda 2v2) and obi wan knew this, he wanted luke to be a jedi but that would upset the balance, one of the jedi had to die for luke to become one, and obiwan knew that yoda was a better teacher then him (look how bad he messed anakin up) so he let himself get struck down. just that simple.

I would like to see Qui-Gon ghost in ep3. That would be fun.

darthbong
07-18-2002, 09:21 AM
I agree with what lexx said about not being able to fight well when angry, I took Kung-Fu for 3 yeard and Karate for 2, and they always tought us the only way to win a fight was with a calm level head, NEVER to allow yourself to fight angry.

Pada-Wan
07-18-2002, 10:39 AM
Qui-Gon in ep1 fought controlled and therefore owned Maul until the hiltsmashing.

Not really. Maul seemed to do most of the attacking against Qui-Gon throughout. Qui-Gon was mostly on the defensive.

SharaFett
07-18-2002, 10:57 AM
what do you mean "olympic style" wrestler? greco-roman?

and for the record, luke DID tap into the dark side when fighting vader. he's a rarity because he went to the dark side and back.

however, you cannot compare hand-to-hand combat in real life with the force. the dark side is a spiritual energy nontheless, thus both a sith and a jedi are focused when they fight- however they use their energies from opposite spectrums of the force. you guys are looking at the force from a 1-dimensional perspective, as merely an emotional state. a sith is not "out of control", he is actually very "in control" when he fights. otherwisse it would be a piece of cake to kill a sith.