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Frumpus
07-19-2002, 02:20 AM
Hey all.

I'm working on a mod called Journey into the Dark ( http://jitd.rtcwfiles.com/Navieng.htm ) I'm currently modelling a she-elf ( http://www.geocities.com/headkingpin/ ) and am having troubles figuring out how to weight the hair so it moves like Lara Croft's ponytail.

Tim "SpaceMonkey" Appleby is also on the team, but I haven't been able to chat with him much. This is my first attempt at 3D modelling, but I've been an artist my whole life.

(LOL, I posted on the Mara Jade topic, and was accused of pimping LMAO, so here it is)

Thanks for any help; and BTW, the current polycount is listed as part of the Gmax name (2262 now).

inbredyokel
07-19-2002, 03:51 AM
Very freakin nice model. A good Lotr-ish mod would be quite cool. As for weighting the hair, I don't think it's possible to have it move as realistically as in tomb raider, just because there's no animation included for it. Unless Raven releases another skeleton that includes "hair bones", you'd probably be best off weighting it to appear as it looks now all the time.

Frumpus
07-19-2002, 04:07 AM
Thanks, yokel!

That would REALLY suck to hear the hair can't be the way I envision it. :((

I hope there's a way to get it looking . . er. . "unstarched". . . . same goes for her "skirt/cape"

Hanch Saode
07-19-2002, 04:19 AM
Yeah....I must agree...it's a very fine model of a she-elf! Looks very Tolkien alike!! Hope you will succeed!

VampireHunterD
07-19-2002, 07:13 AM
good job man. Keep up the good work. :)

Commodus
07-19-2002, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Frumpus
Thanks, yokel!

That would REALLY suck to hear the hair can't be the way I envision it. :((

I hope there's a way to get it looking . . er. . "unstarched". . . . same goes for her "skirt/cape"

Well, there might be a way....

Very recently SilentMobius discovered that you can make new GLAs by running an XSI model with animation frames through Assimilate.

Making a whole new .gla would be very time consuming (you would have to redo all the animations Raven already did just to make the hair move!). SilentMobius said that with some tinkering and "programming tricks" (SilentMobius' word) you can put in the new animations you made into the existing _humanoid.gla. Unfortunately this is out of our scope for the moment - we will have to wait and see.

Don't assume your idea is impossible, but it's not going to be very easy....

Artic Blade
07-20-2002, 01:36 AM
so you're saying just to get the hair to move around, you would have to redo every animation? (i heard that there are 300 some odd animations for saber combat alone)

or could this be a way to make new animations as well?

anyway, sweet job on the model. best of luck to your project. (why havent there been any fantasy/medivial games with as good of sword play as jk2? or have i just missed them?)

Major Clod
07-20-2002, 10:05 AM
What I would recommend is weighting the top part of the hair to the head, then as you go down the hair, start to weight it more and more to the clavicles, but don't completely weight the ends to them, make it say around 0.8-0.9.

Then slightly weight (0.1-0.2) the lower parts of the hair to the arms, this should give it a little bit of movement, that will help it make it look not so static. Basically just experiment end see what happens.

Frumpus
07-20-2002, 03:58 PM
Thanks all.

Major Clod, Re: weighting the hair:

Will there be clipping problems with your suggestion? i.e. . . .if the hair bounces down, will it "dip" into the shoulders and clavicles? That was my main concern. (LOL, also I've NEVER done this before, so I have a lot to learn even before I GET to the weighting part.)

Major Clod
07-20-2002, 11:30 PM
If you weight the parts of the hair that are near the clavicals and back, almost completely to them, you should not get any clipping, so long as you leave some room between the hair and the back at the neutral stance. If its weighted slightly to the head, it should move a little, but not enough to clip.

Commodus
07-21-2002, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by Artic Blade
so you're saying just to get the hair to move around, you would have to redo every animation? (i heard that there are 300 some odd animations for saber combat alone)


Exactly that, however SilentMobius says that he could merge the two different .GLAs into one and make it use the new animations....

BTW Frumpus, how do you expect to get your model ingame if it's made in GMAX???

Frumpus
07-21-2002, 05:22 AM
Hmm, GMax HAS quite a few scripts written for it (i.e. import/export md3, etc. .), but I also have Milkshape and 3DS Max.. . . .I just started to make the model in GMax because that's what I had installed. (I've never used any of them before - I didn't know which would work best :)

Here's just a couple pages I know of:

http://tdp.nu/cgi-bin/plugsearch_r4.pl?search=gmax

http://pages.infinit.net/laurigna/3dstut/gmaxto3ds.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/space/proto57/3D.htm

remark 666
07-21-2002, 05:30 AM
likeing the model, maybe the hands look a bit small (could be the angle)

good job

Grafox
07-21-2002, 05:43 AM
Wow, I just watched the LOTR dvd (again :eek: ) and the elves you are making are looking sweeeeet!!!

Frumpus
07-22-2002, 10:35 PM
Thanks, Remark. The hands WERE too small, I think.

The model has seen many tweaks in the last few days, though, to look at her, you'd probably just see that's she's a bit more "stretched" - she looked a bit too "human" and "squat" to me; ethereal and lithe was what I'm going for. I'll try to get a link posted (but I know NOTHING about webpages - tried to get one working on geocities/angelfire. . .something like that, and it just wouldn't work. My buddy made the one above for me).

OK. I'm about finished the (high LOD) model, but I'm not sure which phase comes next: (REMEMBER, I'VE NEVER MODELLED BEFORE)
1. delete the "instance mirror"; make a "copy"; weld the two halves, and begin to add Asymmetrical "details"?

OR 2. add bones? (I've had alot of problems importing the root.xsi file for jan/trainer/etc. into milkshape. . . then importing it as a "3ds"? file into Gmax. It was wacked! (wierd vertices, looks er. ."flakey/peeling", and I can't see the bones.)

OR 3. "cap" the different segments (i.e. hands, arms, head, torso, legs, hips)

OR 4. UVmap? (doesn't this come when the model is TOTALLY done?)

OR 5. ?? dunno?

I've read SpaceMonkey's tutorial, and I wish I had started with bones FIRST. I know there's probably a few different ways to do it.

Any help/suggestions would be appreciated.

CheshireKat
07-23-2002, 12:02 AM
Frumpus, Nice Model!!!

Try this little trick i learned from SpaceMonkey. Weight the upper part of the hair to the head, ant as it passes her shoulders, lightly weight it to the arms. If its thick enough and a bit away from the body, you'll have hair that bounces with the arm strokes. It may work, though I've only seen it on Spacemonkeys Aayla models thus far..................

Frumpus
07-25-2002, 05:43 PM
Hey all.

I've been at a standstill with this mod for a while. Didn't have much luck with replies/suggestions about the next step.

On JackNeil's recommendation, I decided to weld the two halves, and start the "Asymmetrical details" (especially on the hair.

Oh yeah. In my downtime, I began work on a goblin head. Tell me what you think: http://jitd.fragland.net/php/upload/kram/July%2025%20elf%20&%20goblin.jpg

EDIT**:The Goblin I started yesterday:http://jitd.fragland.net/php/upload/kram/gob1504.jpg
(WAY over my my target of 1000 polys though - 1504 polys)
**

Here's the new link to the Journey Into The Dark Website. There are a few new models up too: http://jitd.fragland.net/

BTW, we're in need of some more modellers, and some skinners, and praps some peeps to do voices later on (including female voice talent). Any that would like to join, give me a Private Message.

StarViperPilot
07-26-2002, 12:17 AM
Very nice. Both look very LOTRish. Good luck getting the elf finished, skinned, and ingame. :thumbs1:

nucular_jedi_14
07-26-2002, 11:01 AM
thanks for a smaller sized model cus the goblin looks jus like in LOTR!

Grafox
07-26-2002, 11:38 AM
Thanks for the link to the site! Added it to my favorites!

The goblin model rocks!

Frumpus
07-27-2002, 05:38 PM
I pulled, twisted, tweaked, and turned the original goblin, and came up with two more **EDIT( these are around 1400-1500 polys each - for the highest LOD; gonna be alot of these little critters on screen at one time!)

http://jitd.fragland.net/php/upload/kram/3goblins.jpg


I really need some help with the next step. Modelling is now a breeze, but still not sure what's next.

inbredyokel
08-02-2002, 04:09 AM
Whoa whoa whoa, how the hell did this thread slip to page 3?! Everything is looking so freakin awsome, I really hope you get these models up and in game soon. I'd be glad to skin for your mod, but I need to finish my current project first ::coughjedicorranhornwipintheskinningforumcough:: Perhaps you'll hear from me in about a month :)

Grafox
08-02-2002, 04:10 AM
Wow, these goblins look freekin awsome!!

remark 666
08-02-2002, 06:52 PM
damn man!! first time models ?? you've got to give me some tips bro, those look badass.

nucular_jedi_14
08-03-2002, 05:29 AM
ur models are the shiznit! BTW could u put ur elven archer model in JO?

K.O
08-03-2002, 05:40 AM
Holy ####! This is your first time?! did you learn on your own or use tuts, cause I always thought modelling was hard as hell, just by looking at it and the progs! Great ****ing job though! :D

Frumpus
08-03-2002, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by nucular_jedi_14
ur models are the shiznit! BTW could u put ur elven archer model in JO?


Just to clarify, the Elven archer is NOT mine; that's JackNeil's work - he just gave it to me for reference.

As far as getting them in game. . .?? I'm not sure when this mod will come out. The website has a "Progress" page - it looks like it'll be a while yet. (especially if I don't know how to move ahead with these models! :)

P.S. Oh YEAH! For SURE I used tuts! I'da been up the creek without them!

Wes Marrakesh
08-03-2002, 04:24 PM
*whistles* nice model there. both of 'em.
can you give me those tuts? i REALLY wanna learn modeling because nobody has taken up my request and i really want it done.

Frumpus
08-03-2002, 05:42 PM
Hi. I used a BUNCH of tutorials! .. . It took a while to read them. But they really helped. Here's the link to the Lucasforums thread where I posted them all:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70945

Wes Marrakesh
08-03-2002, 05:44 PM
hey thanks alot! now i can start on that space marine (assuming i understand it...)
:D

Frumpus
08-11-2002, 03:20 PM
*sigh*. . . . still no luck hooking up with the team leader (JackNeil) on how to get past the next stage with the models I've started.

. .. So.. .. as per usual, I started on a new one! :) An elf warrior. I pulled, stretched, folded, and tweaked some more the elf-maiden. . . and came up with something new (still not sure about that "headdress/armour"):

http://jitd.fragland.net/php/upload/kram/elfwarr1.jpg

(revised: )
http://jitd.fragland.net/php/upload/kram/elfwarr2.jpg



Here's a link to another thread here in the forums concerning LOTR:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=758573

Grafox
08-11-2002, 03:28 PM
Looking damn fine. As I am now also part of the JitD team, I am looking forward to skinning your models.

Do you have them uvw mapped already?

Frumpus
08-12-2002, 01:54 AM
Hmm. I segmented the elf-maiden model into 9 different parts (no caps yet), and looked at some tutorials - especially the stock Gmax tutorial Re: UVW Mapping and Unwrapping. I applied a checkered texture. . .
http://jitd.fragland.net/php/upload/kram/she_elfchek.jpg

. . . and was able to "successfully"? (? ) map the left arm (I'll probably just copy it to the right arm later).
http://jitd.fragland.net/php/upload/kram/she_elfchek2.jpg


I tried the hand and the head . . . WOAH .. . . WAY beyond my knowedge level there. How do I do this? ALL of the parts I UVW Mapped as "cylinders". The arm was hard enough - even though it's almost a true cylinder. The parts that have deep crevices and such I suppose are murder.

Any suggs? (or links?) Thanks!

Grafox
08-12-2002, 03:26 AM
Well, I have downloaded a great video on uvw mapping a head. Don't remember what the url was. Damn. I'll see if I can find it on google.

Grafox
08-12-2002, 03:29 AM
Ah, here it is: http://www.gignews.com/jade_3dsmax.htm :) Good luck. If you send me a model, I'll also like to try. My email is in my profile on the intern part of JitD. :) Or you can just look in my lucasarts profile.

Weapon X
08-13-2002, 12:12 AM
so are you gonna start making lord of the rings characters? or is it just gonna be these? if you are i think here's a list people would like to see:
Legolas (my favorite)
Aragorn
Gimli
Boromir
orcs
and maybe the hobbits

Frumpus
08-13-2002, 12:50 AM
*sigh* I hope you've read the whole thread, ep2 anakin. also, here's another thread about LOTR models.

I'll paraphrase: Journey into the Dark is NOT a TC for The Hobbit or Lord of the Rings. It WILL (possibly - and hopefully) be a TC for elements of The Silmarillion - a book JRR Tolkien wrote that takes place Ages before LOTR in Middle Earth (and even BEFORE Middle Earth/Arda for that matter). The ONLY reason it MIGHT NOT bear the "Tolkien" or "Silmarillion" name would be for copyright reasons. I certainly hope it WILL bear that name - and follow the ancient characters of Beleriand (the ancestors of Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, etc.)

Actually, I am much more thrilled about a Silmarillion mod than an LOTR mod - simply because it's never been done before (kind of like Knights of the Old Republic :) )

--------------------------------

Grafox! Great to have you on the team. I downloaded that Wolfsblade movie. WOW. That helps! Thanks, and I'm glad to have you on the team. I couldn't find your email/ICQ/MSN addy in the INTERN section of our site. PM me with that info, k?

BradFu
08-13-2002, 01:23 AM
Hey, great idea! We get to see the LOTR-era stuff on the big screen and all over the place in merchendising, etc. Silmarillion stuff is a great idea! If nothing else, you have THOUSANDS of years to play around in and find the perfect setting, and lots of stories/characters. Something that might be cool is having Elrond as either a supporting character or the main character, since he was around even back then, and he rocks! :D That Elf Warrior you showed the other day is a good likeness :D

VampireHunterD
08-13-2002, 04:53 AM
Hey Frumpus! So you say you're making this mod based on the elements of the Sillmarillion? Well if you need any help let me know b/c I've read that book and I know just about almost anything there is to know in the Silmarillion. :D

It would be awesome to have the hundreds of Balrog/elf battles again. Especially as a mod!!!!! :D

Frumpus
08-13-2002, 10:27 AM
Hey Vampire (or any other interested party); I assume you've already visited the Journey into the Dark site: http://jitd.fragland.net/

Check it out if you want to be involved in the project, and email JackNeil at JackNeil@gmx.de He's the guy in charge of the project.

I know we still badly need people skilled in skinning, but if you want to help in any way, I'm pretty sure we can use you.


---------------------

On a modelling note, I've got a mapping question:
I'm UVW Mapping/Unwrapping the left hand ( http://jitd.fragland.net/php/upload/kram/elfmap1.jpg ) I tried to separate the map into 2 parts (or maybe up to 5 for the fingers).

Do I need to Detach the faces not mapped yet into NEW objects/elements first? Everytime I want to move on to the next part (i.e. the thumb/index finger map), it screws up the existing map of the palm/top of hand. Any suggs?

Once I learn how to do all this for the FIRST time, it'll be SOOOO much easier to work on the goblins, orcs, the elf-warrior, Balrogs (;) . . we'll see ), etc.

TieDestroyer
08-13-2002, 10:52 AM
So is this gonna be a public model for JK2?.

Or is this only for RTCW or something.

Grafox
08-13-2002, 11:36 AM
Well, Frumpus, I can't hel you with the uvw mapping, I think I know less about it then you do :)

But I would like to try it, so could you send me a model?

grafox@quicknet.nl

JackNeilNC
08-13-2002, 02:30 PM
Hi,
thx that you make straight the problem with the story.
Stockzieh is still working on the english version.
We will post the introductory history on our website and all teammembers will get the complete story if they want.
I think you will not be dissapointed. We planned the story over a half year and the action and riddle parts are well balanced.

Sorry but i can not help you with the skinmap. Up to now i mapped only small things like map-objects.
Cu

JackNeil

Weapon X
08-14-2002, 11:37 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frumpus
[B]*sigh* I hope you've read the whole thread, ep2 anakin. also, here's another thread about LOTR models.

I'll paraphrase: Journey into the Dark is NOT a TC for The Hobbit or Lord of the Rings. It WILL (possibly - and hopefully) be a TC for elements of The Silmarillion - a book JRR Tolkien wrote that takes place Ages before LOTR in Middle Earth (and even BEFORE Middle Earth/Arda for that matter). The ONLY reason it MIGHT NOT bear the "Tolkien" or "Silmarillion" name would be for copyright reasons. I certainly hope it WILL bear that name - and follow the ancient characters of Beleriand (the ancestors of Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, etc.)

Actually, I am much more thrilled about a Silmarillion mod than an LOTR mod - simply because it's never been done before (kind of like Knights of the Old Republic :) )

*sigh* i didn't read the whole thread, i just saw tolkein, elf, and the elrond facial model (looks exactly like him i might add, the mouth is what makes it perfect) and was wondering what was happening, i didn't expect journey into the dark to be a TC for LOTR, i didn't know it was going to be a TC, hell i don't know what silmarillion is so i was just wondering if LOTR models were going to be made or not, because the other LOTR model thread is not what it's supposed to be (at least when i checked last) and this modeler has some SERIOUS TALENT, if you get someone to skin these as well as you modeled them, they'll be the best models ever made, and hey, legolas is pretty old huh? we don't know when he came around but he did, and it wouldn't be too hard to edit one to make him would it? *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*

Grafox
08-15-2002, 04:31 AM
http://jitd.fragland.net/php/upload/kram/sword.jpg

Just a sword I've skinned for the mod :)

Jason_W
08-17-2002, 04:30 AM
That is one kick ass sword.

Frumpus
08-29-2002, 01:37 AM
Hey again.

Thought I'd give an update on the model( s) I'm working on.

I'm plugging away at getting this elf-enchantress mapped - she's almost done.

On a different note, I was thinking about how much I HOPE Peter Jackson includes the bit about the Druedain (a.k.a. Pukel-Men, Wild Men of the Woods), and I've been reading Tolkien's "Unfinished Tales". I started to model one out of one of the goblin meshes I'd made a few weeks ago. It helps me to model them nude first to get the bone structure/proportions correct (it's hard to do for something that doesn't exist :) ) Here it is:

http://jitd.fragland.net/php/upload/kram/Drug2.jpg

It's out of my heard (I sort of envisioned them as prehistoric man when reading LOTR and Unfinished Tales), though I'm probably "unconsciously" influenced by the Hildebrandt Brother's depiction of Ghan-buri-Ghan (though theirs is QUITE inaccurate). .. my Mom had the Tolkien calender when we were growing up:

http://www.duvendor.hpg.ig.com.br/Artistas/Artistas%20Hildebrant's_Full.htm
(see right column near bottom of page)


Well, I need a fresh perspective. The feet aren't re-done yet, but . . . here's what I gleaned of their existance from Unfinished Tales and The Return of the King:


Druedain (Sindarin) / Drugs / Wild Men of the Woods / Woses / Dru-Folk / Drug-folk / Pukel-men / Oghor-hai (Orcish) / Ruatani (Quenyan)_________________________________________ ___________

-history: ancient and primitive Atani (Men); possibly the first Men to cross northwest over the Anduin (possibly between Mordor and Gondor) in the First Age , originating from the south of Mordor. Befriended the Haladin (people of the she-warrior, Haleth) and were among the first Men to cross over Ered Lindon (Blue Mountains) into Beleriand - in Ossiriland. Travelled west even to the crossings of the Teiglin (where their carvings - the "watch-stones" can be seen) and into the forest of Brethil; mostly stayed within their own lands/peoples or the people of Haleth (much like the Hobbits and Men of Bree live together). Served as excellent and loyal guards for Haladin. Hating Orcs above all else (Orcs fought and tortured them). Orcs fear the "watch stones" and will flee unless in great numbers.

In the Second Age few went to Numenor (with the Haladin, their friends), because "they dreaded the sea", but "foresaw" Numenor's downfall, and began to leave the island early, one by one, or in twow or threes - before it fell into wickedness, and into the sea. Persecuted by the Numenoreans on their return (in the land west of Isen). Later hunted/persecuted by the Rohirrim in Gondor/Rohan. (They thought the Drugs to be related to Orcs)

-appearance: A little taller than Hobbits, but otherwise not at all like Hobbits; a bit like Dwarves in stature and endurance: stumpy, clumsy limbed (arms and legs), broad chests, fat bellies, heavy buttocks. According to the Elves and other Men(Atani), they had "unlovely faces": wide expressionless faces, deep-set black eyes (hard to tell the pupils from the irises) which glow red when angered, flat noses, wide mouths, sparse lanky hair (NOT like Hobbits' abundant, close curls). No hair lower than the eyebrows, except a few men who had a tail of black hair on the chin (i.e. Ghan-buri-Ghan's "hairs of his scanty beard straggled on his lumpy chin like dry moss").

-character and society: secretive, suspicious of other peoples, stealthy, silent - even in war, extremely patient! Able to sit in stillness cross-legged (with hands in laps or on knees, or arms-crossed) on the ground for days without end - looking like statues (much like the "watch stones" they carve). "'Wild Men go quick on feet,' said Ghan." Very skilled in painting with pigments and carving wood/stone to make toys, tools, weapons and Art. Used "flint" tools even before metalsmithing became commonplace. Able to imbue some "magic" into the stones to protect the people the stones "watch over" and to scare away enemies ("transferrence" magic similar to Sauron and the One ring - but to a much lesser degree). Excellent trackers, hunters; skilled in use of plants and healing (especially Orc wounds). Used drums to communicate over long distances. Very frugal people - only eating when needed and only drinking water. Very rich and rolling laugh - no malice or scorn in it. Vocalize a shrill "whistle" to alert others (loud and painful when to hear); otherwise, deep, gutteral voices. Spoke few words (able to speak the Common tongue, but "haltingly" - to converse with the Sindar and other Men.)

-Used tents/shelters around the base of trees, but VERY hardy and rugged people, needing very little shelter. Many of the women were warriors (like the people of Haleth) Keen eyes; Exceptional ability of smell: "boast that they can smell an Orc farther than a Man can see one," and could follow a scent for weeks - except through running water. Forbid the use of poisons on ANY living creature - except Orcs; they use poisoned "darts" to kill Orcs. Wore high buskins (boots?) with laces for very rough, thorny country. Otherwise, wore skirts of grass about the waist (i.e. Ghan).

Grafox
08-29-2002, 02:14 AM
Looking good frumpus. About the she elf model, could you give her eyelashes? I can paint them on but that just looks ugly :)

Wolfey
08-29-2002, 05:21 AM
Impressive...Most impressive...