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Darth Windu
07-26-2002, 11:22 AM
What's up with Sev'Rance Tann? This bugs me in particular because at the end of Episode 1, Yoda specifically states that there are only ever two, a master and an apprentice. Since Darth Sdious is the Master, and Darth Tyrannus is the apprentice, wjhere does Sev'Rance fit in?
Thoughts?

jcb231
07-27-2002, 08:40 PM
Actually, despite widespread fan belief to the contrary, Yoda actually says "Always two there are, a master, and an apprentice."

He never says there are ONLY two, just that there are always two...that could be taken to mean there are only two, as most fans have done, or taken to mean that there are always at least two, to keep the chain of training going.......so depending on how you take it Tann doesn't cause any problems.

General_Veers
07-27-2002, 09:13 PM
Everything's explained in the StarWars.com Databank:
http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/thesith/index.html

It says that if there are more than two, a master and an apprentice, they all are consumed by self destruction.

"Internecine struggle by power-hungry Sith practioners dwindled their numbers.

One Sith had the cunning to survive. Darth Bane restructured the cult, so that there could only be two -- no more, no less -- a master, and an apprentice."

As for Sev'Rance Tann, I read somewhere (think it was the Star Wars Galaxies site) that although there can only be two sith there can be"Dark Jedi", the sort of opposite of a Jedi, and that it is a Dark Jedi that replaces a sith when they die.

Hope that clears everything up! :emperor: :vadar:

jcb231
07-29-2002, 01:19 AM
Yes, yes, I've read that too, but if you're basing your observations and getting your information SOLEY from the movies there's no clarification given to Yoda's comments.

Darth Windu
07-29-2002, 02:46 AM
Epsiode 1-
Yoda - "only two there are, no more, no less"

Seems pretty conclusive to me.

Kryllith
07-29-2002, 12:14 PM
I agree with the fact that people seem to confuse Dark Jedi with the Sith. There can be plenty of Dark Jedi roaming around while there are only two Sith. I don't recall any mentioning of Tann being a Sith apprentice, simply a general (though obviously with Force powers) of Sidious's. She could have been any number of Jedi that turned against the order or was taught by other ex-members of the Jedi...

Kryllith

jcb231
07-29-2002, 02:20 PM
That's not yoda's exact quote. I don't have a script or the movie in my appartment anymore, but maybe someone does. I still think he says

"ALWAYS two there are...." not "ONLY two there are..."

Darth Windu
07-30-2002, 09:33 AM
ok then, so the quote is 'always two there are. No more, no less'. Still seems mighty conclusive.

Also, i hate to tell you guys this, but the dark jedi ARE the Sith. Besides, in Republic mission 6 Sev'Rance is asking Echuu if he wants to take her place at count dooku's side, as his apprentice. Since there is only ever two sith, those two being Dath Sidious and Tyrannus, that is not possible.

Kryllith
07-30-2002, 10:14 AM
From what I've read, the Sith are based on a specific way of teaching and code which resulted long in the past with the domination of the Sith planet (hence the Dark Jedi then were call the Sith Lords). The training and instructions are handed down from master to apprentice continuously, though the apprentice oftentimes may have been a Jedi to start (such as Dooku and Vader were). There can be plenty of Jedi who have turned to the darkside, but unless they've been apprenticed to the current Sith Master, they are not Sith.

Kryllith

jcb231
07-30-2002, 07:02 PM
Right....a Jedi who has succumbed to the dark side has not necessarily joined the Sith order.

Also, does yoda say "no more, no less"? I missed that part I guess....

Kent H
07-31-2002, 02:47 AM
Yeah, Dark Jedi and Sith are two entirely different things. Dark Jedi are just Jedi that have turned to the darkside. The Sith are an almost religious cult obsessed with destroying the Jedi. Sev'rance could easily be Dooku's Jedi apprentice, and not even know about the Sith, or at least his Sith connections.

And yes, Yoda says the "no more, no less" part. However, Sith, like the Jedi can make Holocrons, repositories of their history, teaching, and culture. While it's more difficult than having a living teacher, in theory any force sensitive could find a Sith Holocron and study it to become a Sith. Not to mention that surely during the past thousand years there would be a Sith or two who didn't follow the Rule of Two. Just because Yoda believes there is always only two does not make it fact.

Darth Windu
07-31-2002, 05:02 AM
read the starwars databank, there are only 2 sith at any one time.

Sithmaster_821
07-31-2002, 11:21 AM
Also, i hate to tell you guys this, but the dark jedi ARE the Sith
Windu, if you dont know what your saying, dont talk at all. Ill type slowly so even you can understand. The Sith are an extremist order of the Dark Side. During the time period which you refer to, there are only two sith, palpatine and dooku. Tann isnt a member of the sith order, just a dark force user that Dooku has recruited as a right hand and a apprentice in the dark side. If you got past the first scenerio and beat the campaign, you'd realize that no connection is made between Tann and the Sith order

Darth Windu
08-01-2002, 05:27 AM
sithmaster - that insult really doesnt work, since i read that post at the same speed as every other post. To make it an effective insult, you should've space the letters. Anyway, i have completed the entire game, and i dont have a problem with there being dark 'force users' i just have a problem with there being more than two evil jedi (sith) at any one time.

jcb231
08-01-2002, 02:26 PM
Windu...

What most of us are trying to say is that evil/dark Jedi are NOT the same as Sith. Therefore there can be any number of Dark Jedi at the same time.

Think of it this way (and I'm not trying to insult any religions here, as I'm Catholic myself):

Catholics are all Christian, but Christians are not all Catholic.

Get it now? Sith are a faction that darkside users can become involved in, but just because someone follows the darkside does not mean that they are an official Sith Lord. Therefore there could be hundreds of Dark Jedi, in theory.

Kryllith
08-01-2002, 04:55 PM
Or, if you want to relate it more to the movies, consider this: If Obiwan had decided to join with Dooku, then he would have been a Jedi (and perhaps eventually a Darkside Jedi once he became corrupted) but he would not have become one of the Sith. The only way he could have become one of the Sith is if Dooku died (in which case Obiwan could become Sidious's apprentice) or if Sidious died (in which case Dooku would be come the master and Obiwan could become HIS apprentice). In either case, no other Sith are going to be made unless one of the current Sith is disposed of. Should that happen though, there may be any number of Dark Jedi ready to become apprenticed...

Kryllith

Sithmaster_821
08-01-2002, 10:51 PM
that insult really doesnt work, since i read that post at the same speed as every other post. To make it an effective insult, you should've space the letters.
Windu, the more you say, the dumber you look. I was being sarcastic and hyperbolic, using humor to add effect. Of course you still read it at the same speed.

Darth Windu
08-02-2002, 09:28 AM
jcb, kryllith - i get what you're trying to say about the whole dark jedi/sith thing, but doesnt the existence of dark jedi make the whole thing of only 2 sith at any one time obselete? Also, if there are so many dark jedi, in ep1 when qui-gon's attacked by maul, why would he immediately assume he's a sith and not a dark jedi?

jcb231
08-02-2002, 09:34 AM
No, being a Sith is still important, because Dark Jedi are not immediate dangers to normal Jedi. Sith have a crazy mad-on to eliminate the Jedi order, and so the fact that Qui-Gon was so savagely attacked in the desert by Darth Maul is probably why he made that assumption, coupled with whatever he read off his opponents mind.

Dark Jedi can be Sith, but they could just as easily have left the order to use their powers for financial gain or to control people for their personal amusement or something...they don't even have to be violent. Sith, by their very nature, are out to destroy the Jedi...the dark side is merely their tool.

Kryllith
08-02-2002, 10:31 AM
Actually, I'd wager that the Dark Jedi aren't widely numerous. Most of the Jedis are Jedis because they've been taught from a very early age to do what is just and good. Since the training is nearly inborn, I'd guess that most of the Jedis tend to keep within the training they received. Occasionally though you'll have individuals who become disenchanted with the Jedi order for various reasons (they become greedy, fall in love and decided to marry, get power crazu, etc). So while they are out there, I don't imagine there are nearly as many as the Light Jedis. Of course, there could be numerous Non-Sith Dark Jedis out there corrupting Jedis or raising Force-sensitive people as well, so who knows.

As for his impression as to Maul being a Sith. *shrug* Maybe it was Maul's style of fighting, something Qui-gon picked up from the Force, the style of costume, Maul's race, or various other elements. I don't know Qui-gon's experience with distinguishing who is and is not a Jedi, so I really couldn't tell you. :)

Kryllith

Sithmaster_821
08-04-2002, 11:46 PM
Kyrllith, in ep2 they said 20 jedi had left the order as. Also, those force-strong, but not discovered by the jedi could turn very easily to the dark side.

Kryllith
08-05-2002, 02:05 PM
Yeah, 20 out of 10000 is pretty miniscule, and there is a good chance that Qui-gon would probably know (or at least know of) the Jedi that had left the order--and even if he didn't, someone from the Council probably would. Given this, it's conceivable he'd guess that a highly trained, unknown Force user could be a Sith. Of course, it could just be one of those Force-sensitives that were trained by a Dark Jedi. :)

Kryllith

Legacy_Of_Sith
08-13-2002, 11:09 PM
Windu, NOT ALL DARK JEDI ARE SITH. Was Mara Jade a sith? No, but she was a dark sider and an agent of the Emperor, who was a sith lord. Ditto for the dark side adepts.

Assault3000
08-15-2002, 09:30 PM
Jedi Knight Dark Forces II is an example of there being more than two Dark Jedi at a time thing mentioned above. There are seven Dark Jedi in JK so there can be more than two. Dark Jedi are not necessarily Sith.

Darth Windu
08-16-2002, 11:22 AM
I think by now i can call this thread closed. I do understand the thing about dark jedi, although i still think it was some idiot writer's idea for more bad jedi.

jcb231
08-16-2002, 02:34 PM
Sithmaster....I don't know if you've somehow seen some secret director's cut of Episode II or something, but the line about 20 jedi leaving the order was not in the movie. It was edited out of the final cut. Go ahead and watch it again if you don't believe me. Maybe it'll be on the DVD but I doubt it...GL's rule the last time around was that he would only finish deleted scenes of reasonable length, and that was just a throw-away random line.

I assume it was cut because George Lucas didn't want to limit himself to 20 if he should want more dark jedi for some reason. And maybe also because he thought the library scene was dragging.

WolfmanNCSU
08-16-2002, 05:21 PM
The 20 Jedi that left the order are the "Lost 20" they spoke of in AotC. Dooku was one of them, the most recent to leave and the most powerful one to do so as well. He is a little info about the 20 from the SW Databank here (http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/thejediorder/index.html). The info is about halfway down or so. Hope this helps to clear some stuff up.

Admiral Vostok
08-17-2002, 05:09 AM
Wolfman, as jcb231 said, the "Lost Twenty" was NOT spoken of in Episode II. That makes it EU and not good evidence in a Star Wars mythology argument.

As for Sevrance Tann, which I believe this thread was about, this is how I took it:

We are definitely in agreeance that she is not a Sith Lord. Also, it isn't mentioned in the campaigns that she knows that Dooku is a Sith Lord named Tyranus. I assumed she was Dooku's apprentice who followed him when he left, and he has kept teaching her about the Force, but taught her the Dark Side instead of the Light Side. When she tells Echuu to join her side, it's similar to Dooku asking Obi-Wan to side with him. It's nothing to do with the Sith, but more to do with the fact that the Republic is a weak government that is abusing the Jedi's protection, and any sensible Jedi should not stand for it.

Darth Windu
08-17-2002, 09:10 AM
actually, the 'lost 20' was in the movie.

jcb231
08-19-2002, 12:52 PM
Darthwindu---

Actually, it wasn't, and I challenge you to find it. It WAS in the early leaked script bits and was apparently shot on film, but WAS NOT in the movie. It seems to have wound up on the cutting room floor along with Padme's family, Ki-Adi's mission to shut down the droids, and most of Bail Organa's role. Seriously, go watch it carefully and listen and you'll see. All that is discussed is that Dooku was once a Jedi but has left the order. No mention is made of the "Lost Twenty," and the scene in which Obi-Wan studies Dooku's bust in the library is cut. The busts are still in the background of some shots, but no dialogue refers to them.

Unless of course the international version is seriously different than that which us Americans saw, but I doubt they would change such a major scene as the lost 20 for international audiences.

Darth Windu
08-21-2002, 07:48 AM
I am telling you, i saw the 'lost 20' bit in the movie. Which version did you see? I remember there being two version, the old sort, and a fully digital version, or something like that. I think there was some extra footage in the fully digital version, which is the one i saw.

yodayoda
08-21-2002, 10:01 AM
Well I know there were 2 versions. In the version I saw the lost 20 wasn't in it.

AND Yoda rocks :yoda::yoda: hehe

Jethro
08-21-2002, 10:59 AM
Who cares?!

Jethro, it doesn't matter

jcb231
08-21-2002, 12:05 PM
Y'know Windu, I've never really done this before....but....

Prove it. Everything I've heard to date has said that the digital version's differences (besides being of a much higher quality) from the regular were exceedingly minor (ie...longer shots of this or that, slight changes of body positions) and did not involve any actual dialogue changes. There was actually a reader question answered by Rick McCallum on the official site that refers to differences between the two versions....go ahead and look it up under archived jedicouncil questions. As he says, the differences were very minor.

Darth Windu
08-23-2002, 08:01 AM
jcb - i dont know how many times i have to say this before you believe me, but the line about the 'lost 20' was in the film i saw. It's not a debate, it is fact whether you want to believe it or not. There is no way for me to prove it to you, as its not on at the cinema's and not out on DVD yet, but then by the same token, i challenge you to disprove it.

WolfmanNCSU
08-23-2002, 05:05 PM
Not to defend on who is right and who is wrong, but the "Lost 20" are not EU, however many EU stories have been written about each of the Jedi. They are in fact a real part of SW. There is a filmed scene that was removed in the final cut, that explains that Dooku was the last of the 20 that left the Jedi Council. Hopfuly, this scene will be featured on the DVD release in Nov.

The bust in the archieves are all of the "Lost 20." This is all written in the Offical Star Wars Data Bank (which contains info from the movie, EU, and behind the scene) and are referenced in the movie. Also, here is a part of the deleted scene, straight from the Star Wars Insider that I found was interesting. Its the librarian helping Obi Won as he is staring at a bust of Dooku him self.

http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/multimedia/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Images/Episode_2/Magazines/Star_Wars_Insider/No_55&image=swi55-jocasta_obi.jpg&img=16&tt=

I hope this helps out some on the arguement.

KoL ShadowJedi
08-23-2002, 09:47 PM
sev'rance tann was a dark acolyte not a sith or dark jedi so that solves that look at databank on SWGB.

jcb231
08-24-2002, 01:48 PM
Yes, yes, I KNOW what the scene was about and I KNOW it was filmed and I've read the script of it, blah blah....I'm still 100% insistant, however, that it WAS edited out of the final cut. I want to see Darth Windu's magical version of the movie now...does it play on regular movie screens or only in your mind? :)

I even took the time to ask various online SW sites about this to try to get my claim backed up and all of them came back with the same response: it was filmed but removed from the final cut and therefore not released to theatres. Are you sure you're not just imagining it was in there because you've read the script excerpts online?

The lost 20 was not in the final cut of the film and is therefore technically EU, like the Biggs on Tatooine scene in ANH or the ROTJ sandstorm scene or the Wampa Echo Base attack in ESB, or the Greedo/Anakin fight in TPM. I'm not denying that its not a good scene or worthwile to the original debate of this thread, I'm just saying it IS NOT IN THE FILM. If something was cut from any SW film it was for a reason...maybe GL wants to contradict the lost 20 statement in ep III and didn't want to box himself in.

Hmm...I guess I can't prove that its not in there any more than you can prove your (wrong) claim, but it's true. Just go see the darn film again and you'll see for yourself.

Darth Windu
08-25-2002, 12:44 AM
jcb - this is going anywhere. I say its in the film, you say it isnt. There is no way for either of us to prove our point's, so how about we just drop it?

jcb231
08-25-2002, 03:18 PM
OK...fine...I'll drop it. We'll settle this when the DVD comes out....unless of course that lousy George adds the scene into the DVD and then I'll have no way of proving myself right.

Anyone live in a country where AOTC is still playing?

KoL ShadowJedi
08-25-2002, 06:50 PM
i agree, the mentioning of the lost 20 in ep 2 werent in it