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View Full Version : do you think the US should get out of Israel


Nebelwerfer_
07-29-2002, 02:08 PM
im pretty sure i'm not the first guy to opt this post but this question is driving me mad. I'm not a jew or a muslim but with all these problems it's causing, I need some outside oppinions to help me look at it clearly

Here are some reasons why the US SHOULD help out Israel

1)They are a democracy
2)there are lots of jewish voters in america who see it fit to help them out
3)several christians believe god will bless them if they help out israel

Here are some reasons why I DONT think US should help out Israel:

1) The israelis can be just as brutal as the muslim terrorists
2) helping the israelis will hurt our relation with several muslim nations whom we get a critical amount of our oil from.
3)ancient biblical prophecies are not a reason to start the zionist movement and take over a country


I need some oppinions please.

CenturiOn
07-29-2002, 02:42 PM
id like peace

put peace seems impossible with muslims
USA should invade palestine and dismantel the terrorist groups
but theres loads of risks an intervention could explode into WW3

but if we wait,there will be more and more deaths and either israel or palestine will begin a REAL war.
well God HATES patriotism and usa is VERY patriotic (god save america)

ahah every man is EQUAL to God
no matter were he is from

Revan Bakr'
07-29-2002, 02:46 PM
I think that this question should be in the swamp. But, before it's moved, I have to say that the question is moot. There will never be peace in Israel until the Tribulation!

Revan Bakr'
07-29-2002, 02:47 PM
And even then after three and one half years the Antichrist will break the treaty with Israel and hell breaks loose.

CenturiOn
07-29-2002, 02:54 PM
no i the antichrist will come after WW3
he seem evil
he will bring peace,unity,he will abolish money
but u willhave to pray satan to get the chip in your forehead or right arm(the number of the beast=chip)in order to be CONFORM with this new society.anyone who prays the devil and takes the chip WILL go to hell because theive followed satan.christians will be persecuted,but if u die in the name of our lord you soul will be saved

this is reality

at the end,good things will seem evil,and evil things will seem good(abortion,murder,sex,hatred)

Revan Bakr'
07-29-2002, 02:57 PM
my point exactly- I just didn't elaborate.

TheWhiteRaider
07-29-2002, 03:06 PM
Sometime in the future the U.S. will. I had hope it wouldn't, but doesn't seem that way. Every thing will fall someday Rome lasted 1000 year before it was gone. I mean even the U.S. will fall, but it won't be as fast the way we have our Goverment.
Someday our Goverment will fail too. Oh well that's life.

One thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history.

Bluezman
07-29-2002, 03:20 PM
Some Admin please move this to Yoda's swamp...
But I think this is too much off topic to even stay there... :rolleyes:

FatalStrike
07-29-2002, 03:29 PM
interesting topic that will be moved shortly.

Anyway sounds like some people have been reading either the "Left Behind" series, or they have been scanning the Bible for the scarey parts.

As for peace in the Middle East -

The US will help Isreal for many more reasons then you listed here are two major points.

1- Isreal is a strategic point that US is not willing to lose

2- Isreal has intellegence on terrorists we need

Also a WW3 breaking out here is not possible since the only way the Middle East can strike the US is with terrorism. They have no military equipment capable of striking the US.

Thats my 2 cents

thanks for reading

Nebelwerfer_
07-29-2002, 03:30 PM
nobody's really answering my first questions, and sorry for putting this thread in the wrong forum, only one of you guys needs to post to the admin to move it.

aguelman
07-29-2002, 04:24 PM
Just to answer some of Nebelwerfer questions:

- Why it's ok for us to attack Afghanistan, but it's not ok for Israel to attack terrorists (then they're called BRUTAL...)

- If biblical prophecies or ancient history is not a good start for a nation, then most countries in the world are in deep s*** !!!

Reb Starblazer
07-29-2002, 05:28 PM
The Us should pull out. Maybe not right now, but soon. As horrible as this sounds, let them fight. Let them kill each other. But before you judge what I'm saying, let me finish. They need this. There has never been a catastrophe in the Middle east like WWI and II, Vietnam, and countless others that the west has been involved in. In order for them to stop fighting, they'll need a reason to stop fighting, which they haven't been given yet. Once they start seeing what they're doing to each other, themselves and their world around them, they'll finally understand why peace is needed. I just hope they don't realize it too late... I'm not saying "Oh, go over and kill them all", or "let them all kill each other", I'm saying they need to learn the value of human life, as their society is much different than ours. Honour and revenge are as much a part of their system as laws and jails are ours. They have such drastically different concepts than we do, and while I don't want them to change them, I think they may need to "adapt" them a little.

One of the reasons that the terrosist attacks were made on the U.S. is because the U.S. was "interfering"(for lack of a better word) over in the Middle East. They wanted the U.S. out of there, and that's how they approached it. And now look, it's made it worse. Every since U.S. declared war on Terrorism, Isreal has been using this as an excuse to fight off their own "Terrorists".
Peace can't come without sacrifice, and sacrifice won't come without the will to fight for peace. They'll only start to work together once they realize that they don't want to fight anymore, that it's not worth it. Right now, they don't even remember what they're fighting for. All they know is fighting, in retailiation for fighting. Until someone finally steps up and asks "Why?", they'll keep doing that. And the U.S. can't be the one to do that, they have to do that for themselves. Then, and only then, will there be peace in the Middle East.
/Rant off

Thank you for your time.

Breton
07-29-2002, 05:36 PM
I think that Sharon and Arafat should settle this matter for themselves, like in a boxing game between them, or perhaps a football(soccer) game between the leaders of Israel and the leaders of Palestina. Or perhaps a jk2 duel. So that thousands of innocents won't be killed because of some old mens stupid debate.

JandoFett1842
07-29-2002, 05:38 PM
Reasons to stay in Isriel

1) The Arab Terrorest are Ass Holes
2) 9-11
3) An Arab Taxi Driver hit me in Tony Halk 2
4) Democracy
5) Keep Peace

Reasons to get out of Isriel

1) In the Bible, it says that there will never be peace in the Middle East, So just let them kill each other
2) Oil
3) Hell, are there any other good resons to get out of the middle east?

Breton
07-29-2002, 06:09 PM
The problem is that US support the war in the area, not the peace.Why can't they just let UN handle this matter?

obi
07-29-2002, 06:11 PM
I am a bible man myself and I agree with the previous comments about the antichrist and no peace untill the tribulation.

However, I got the crap flamed uot of me when I said it.......


I say get the terrorists and get out. Try not to stay too long, and it'll be ok. Avoid the civilian casualties, also.

Well, here is something I dont understand:

We have holy wars all the time, yet all of the "gods" of different religions are in favor of peace, yet people kill in the name of their "god".

Kinda ironic, isn't it?

Camus
07-29-2002, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
The problem is that US support the war in the area, not the peace.Why can't they just let UN handle this matter?


AS said before the US gets a critical amout of oil from that area... If the US doesnt stop someone dictator can come in near the end wipe everyone out and take over 100% controll over it and how do you say strangle the US in an economic war...

NerfYoda
07-29-2002, 06:21 PM
Oh boy.

1) Sharon and Arafat both need to be taken out of power. Sharon has done absolutely zilch for any kind of peace to happen, as has Arafat. The problem is the folks who replace them are likely to be even more radical.

2) Aside from ties to the Jewish community & the oil thing the US needs to stay in the Arab world so they can go after Saddam & Iraq. Our relationships with Saudi Arabia and Israel make for possible staging points. Is this the right thing to do? Personally I dont think so. It's on Dubya's to do list though.

3) The US can keep ties with Israel if they push VERY hard for the creation of a UN endorsed Palestinian state. It's not the US's job to take sited. If we're going to be the world's policeman then we need to start settling these disputes a little better.

4) This one is my personal opinion here.. Both Israel and Palestine are acting irresponsibly. Religious destiny is hardly a basis for stable government. I think the UN should come in and forcibly create a DMZ in between the 2 sides and embargo the lot of them Iraq style. Disarm both sides. Feh. I dont know what they should do. I also at times thienk we should just pull out & let them sort it out themselves.

5) Screw Israel & Zionism, Screw Palestine & archaic notions of martyrship. That's my official stance. Its getting to the point where I dont really care anymore. :mad:

aguelman
07-29-2002, 06:22 PM
I agree with you Reb Starblazer, but only in parts...

You talk about WWI, WWII and Vietnam, but people are at war at the Middle East for like 3.000 years, so you can't talk about discovering what peace is all about...at least the KNOW why they are fighting for !!!

And you can't even start talking about the "violent Israeli people" when ALL the wars in the region were started by the ARABS !!!

Breton
07-29-2002, 06:30 PM
Exept from the Iraq part (I think attacking Iraq is something that should not be done), I agree with NerfYoda, both part have responsebility that it has come to war in this region. That is why US should not take part in this case.

UN understands it, Terje Røed Larsen understands it, even the pope understands it, but Bush obviously don't.

Camus
07-29-2002, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Exept from the Iraq part (I think attacking Iraq is something that should not be done), I agree with NerfYoda, both part have responsebility that it has come to war in this region. That is why US should not take part in this case.

UN understands it, Terje Røed Larsen understands it, even the pope understands it, but Bush obviously don't.



Im sorry but Bush and the US is protecting our intrest... Right now there are a lot of US familys in the middle east working with global oil compenies...

Breton
07-29-2002, 06:37 PM
Protecting our interest?

He is killing innocents, and you bother about oil?

Reb Starblazer
07-29-2002, 06:38 PM
Yes, that's part of the problem too. The U.S.(and pretty much everywhere else in the western world) depends on the middle east for oil, and because of that, they have an interest in the middle east. This is one of the reasons why the U.S. is very reluctant to pull out, because they are afraid of what might happen.

Yea, I agree with what you guys are saying about the religious issues(well, I do think you're going a bit far with it NerfYoda, but that's your own opinion and you're entitled to it. I mean #5) I don't know about all the bible prophecies but I do not believe that goverment should be based on religion. Religious beliefs have been the cause of many problems over the years, many a war and lots of deaths. And yea Obi, it is strange. Also, I recommend "Dogma" to anyone here. It's a great movie, and there's some very interesting religious ideas thrown into the mix there.

I think that a relationship with the middle east should be kept, but I don't think that the U.S. should be as large a player in that area as they are now. Being out of the middle of it, but still being part of it, is a possibility. I'm kinda with Nerfyoda on the whole "split them up or let them sort it out" as I've said in my post earlier, but obivously we just can't let them nuke each other.

As for anyone wondering why I feel so passionately about this, it's because I've been there. I lived the first half of my life in Lebanon, born in Beirut. My father decided to move to gve us a better life, away from the constant wars. I remember what it was like to see rubble of buildings everywhere, I remember what it was like to see people swearing revenge for the death of a loved one. And that's the problem. Until someone finally decides to put an end to it, to put aside the past and move on to the future, there will never be peace.

EDIT: To aguelman, yes I know how long they've been fighting, and that's part of the problem. They've been fighting so long they don't even know why they're fighting anymore. They just continue to fight, that's what I was saying in my first post. They're raised to hate the other one, to fight the other side, and that has to stop. The thing with the world wars and the like is because it was such a castrophic loss of life. Almost as many people died in those what, 10 years of war, as have died in the 3000 years of fighting in the middle east(while that's probably not exactly right, you at least get what I mean right). That's why we realized it. If it wasn't for the 60's and people standing up against war, we'd probably still be that way. That's what needs to happen in the East, regular people need to stand against the war, instead of raising their children to be a part in it, and have to stop longing for revenge. Revenge will only beget more revenge, and the circle will never end. That's why I'm saying someone has to finally stand up and ask "Why?"

Breton
07-29-2002, 06:42 PM
The Palestinian kids learns to hate the Israels, the Israelian kids learns to hate the Palestinians. Much of the problem lies there.

Arkum
07-29-2002, 06:47 PM
We shouldn't do anything with Israel, let them fight their stupid battle, they've been doing it for 50 yrs. and they haven't realized that it's not working. We have been trying for years to reach peace agreements with both sides, but do they listen? no. We just let them be and they will destroy each other, too bad.

Camus
07-29-2002, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
The Palestinian kids learns to hate the Israels, the Israelian kids learns to hate the Palestinians. Much of the problem lies there.


Yes it is a large problem... but the goverment they use now isnt helping that... They do need a new government that seperaits there religions and helps them grow in diffrent ways with out wanting to kill eachother...

JandoFett1842
07-29-2002, 06:51 PM
Put the Israil kids and Palastinin kids in the same school mabe? Oh Wait then the palastinain kids whoud become sewacide bombers! Dumb Idea!

Breton
07-29-2002, 06:53 PM
Yes, both of the goverments needs to be changed to a goverment that acctually wants peace. Neither of the goverments today do this.


This is my 100th post:) :cheers: :)

Camus
07-29-2002, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by JandoFett1842
Put the Israil kids and Palastinin kids in the same school mabe? Oh Wait then the palastinain kids whoud become sewacide bombers! Dumb Idea!


They could even try and pull a spork out on an israil kid... oh wait wrong thread...

Breton
07-29-2002, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by JandoFett1842
Put the Israil kids and Palastinin kids in the same school mabe? Oh Wait then the palastinain kids whoud become sewacide bombers! Dumb Idea!

I think it's a good idea. Let them be friends instead of enemies. Only that way can the hate disappear.

Arkum
07-29-2002, 07:00 PM
We should leave both countries alone.There will never be peace between the two. It's like Elrond says in LOTR:

"Men, men are weak, the race of men has failed. The blood of human order is all but spent, it's pride and dignity forgotten."

"I was there on the day the strength of men failed."

"There is no strength left in the world of men. They are scattered, divided, leaderless."


My point is that the hope for peace in the region had failed long ago and now there is none.

Arkum
07-29-2002, 07:06 PM
i saw on TV an interview with a teenage Palestinian whose best friend is an Israeli. They get along just fine. I also saw a school that both the Palestinians and Israeli kids attend to, they also get along VERY well. It is the adults that are corrupting their children's minds. And the the adults are corrupting each other

Breton
07-29-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Arkum
We should leave both countries alone.There will never be peace between the two. It's like Elrond says in LOTR:

"Men, men are weak, the race of men has failed. The blood of human order is all but spent, it's pride and dignity forgotten."

"I was there on the day the strength of men failed."

"There is no strength left in the world of men. They are scattered, divided, leaderless."


My point is that the hope for peace in the region had failed long ago and now there is none.

Well, Rohan and Gondor made a pretty good allience. They were quite strong too. Theoden was also a good leader, was he not?

My point is that they can't fight forever. In a hundred years or so, they will forget what they really fight for, and they will all go home and post on Lucasforums instead.

Camus
07-29-2002, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn


Well, Rohan and Gondor made a pretty good allience. They were quite strong too. Theoden was also a good leader, was he not?

My point is that they can't fight forever. In a hundred years or so, they will forget what they really fight for, and they will all go home and post on Lucasforums instead.


They havent stopped fighting and I dont think they will stop fighting tell they both are gone...

Breton
07-29-2002, 07:16 PM
Another solution may be to transport all the Israelians to the north pole and let them settle there and transport all the Palestinians to the south pole and let them settle there.

Camus
07-29-2002, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Another solution may be to transport all the Israelians to the north pole and let them settle there and transport all the Palestinians to the south pole and let them settle there.


You know there is something called holy land and they wouldnt like the idea of leaving thier sacride temples and mountains behind will help this at all...

Breton
07-29-2002, 07:23 PM
Well too bad for them

Jah Warrior
07-29-2002, 08:32 PM
I'm not qualified to offer an opinion really but here are a few thoughts about the subject.

Would the US government even care about the Israeli palestine dispute if they weren't trying to woo Jewish votes?

The Palestinians are a people and as such have been "occupied" by Israeli forces much like Northern Ireland. Surely the Palestinians have the right to a homeland of their own.

It is not Muslims that are the terrorists or the problem, It is the "EXTREMISTS" be they Right wing Left wing Jewish Muaslim Buddhist or Mormon. any kind of fanatacism will lead to rash actions I believe.

The only true solution to the whole thing is education. The sooner that the prejudice and inate fear are eradicated the sooner everyone can get on with their lives again.

please read my siggy the woman makes sense!!!

razorace
07-29-2002, 10:41 PM
Would the US government even care about the Israeli palestine dispute if they weren't trying to woo Jewish votes?

Bingo! The only reason the US got involved in the first place was the holocuast. The US and the UN decided that the Jews needed a country so we created one, right smack in the middle of muslim country (the jew's mortal enemy). We got involved when we shouldn't have and now we're stuck with this problem. Politically we can't just pull out of the area as it would show weakness to these people. On the other hand, you can't force peace on anyone. The UN and it peacekeepers won't help jack unless both sides decide to try to peacefully settle this.

My solution:

The US needs to force the isreallies into a reasonable peace agreement by threatening to cut off our two billion dollar annual foriegn, miltary aid, everything. We then tell the Palestinians this is the best they're going to get and we will MAKE the isreallies stay to the deal. If neather comply, we pull totally out and let the biggest dog win. If the Palestinians comply, but not the Isreallies we cut off all support to Isreal and show how they like holding off the entire muslim world (without our guns this time.) If the only the Isreallies comply, we let them 100% hunt the Palestinians terrorists down like dogs until the Palestinians comply. That's the best we can hope for. All we have to do is force isreal into a reasonable agreement and hold them to it and maybe a couple of peacekeepers once both sides sign off on the deal.

JandoFett1842
07-29-2002, 11:00 PM
My thoughts are that the Arabs are mad because Qui-Gon dies, IT"S ALL QUI-GON's FALUT!!!

obi
07-29-2002, 11:01 PM
Well, both sides are fueled by hatred towards one another, and Hatred is a powerful weapon to bargain with.

People are so concerned about killing each other over there, they don't even take the time to realize what they are doing!

All over the world, everyday people drink tea or coffe in the morning, while these guys figure out how to stick a bomb on themselves and kill people at a shopping mall..................

Honestly, they are all insane, stupid people. I am not flaming the religions, I am flaming the people that actually do this kind of thing for their religion.

Osama is what, a Muslim? I know many Muslim people,and they don't plan on blowing themselves up any time soon......

Arkum
07-29-2002, 11:52 PM
I whole heartedly agree with Obiwan 13! They are a bunch of sad lost, insane people with corrupt leaders who desire power and have no idea what in the hell they are doing.

MaulerZ
07-29-2002, 11:56 PM
As Arkum I totally agree with obiwan13

NerfYoda
07-30-2002, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by Camus



Yes it is a large problem... but the goverment they use now isnt helping that... They do need a new government that seperaits there religions and helps them grow in diffrent ways with out wanting to kill eachother...

It would be quite hard for that to happen. The area is home to bethlehem, the wailing wall, the dome of the rock, and MANY other various and sundry shrines and holy places. It's hard to not have a religious aspect on the whole thing.

I am in complete argeement on the adults corrupting the kids. My grandfather and grandmother lived in Israel in 1948 & served in it's "Freedom Force" during its independence wars & the 6 day war. I think my late great uncle was a member of the Mossad. I saw a bunch of pics of him with all these big wig political guys back in the sixties during a bday party for him & it kinda suprised me. :) Anyways these guys have NOTHING nice to say about arabs. Theyre kind folk, but all that prejudice has been built up over the years, and they spread it to the kids. I have to de-program my little brother after going to grandma's house. It's nutty.

FatalStrike
07-30-2002, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
Would the US government even care about the Israeli palestine dispute if they weren't trying to woo Jewish votes?

Yes they would. There is much more at stake here then votes. Isreal is a valuable strategic ally in the region. We need their support in order to launch attacks on Iraq.



Originally posted by Jah Warrior
The Palestinians are a people and as such have been "occupied" by Israeli forces much like Northern Ireland. Surely the Palestinians have the right to a homeland of their own.

They were not occupied in the same way. Isreal was attacked, Isreal fought back. When the dust settled Isreal had expanded its borders for its own protection.

Also Palestine has every right to demand its own country BUT it does not have the right to dictate the terms. It does not have the right to demand Jerusalem because it is holy to them. Jerusalem is Holy to almost all faiths of this world, Christianity, Jewish, and Islam all have ties to Jerusalem. I would prefer that Isreal remain with Jerusalem, because I don't trust Arabs to ensure the the Holy sites in Jerusalem that are improtant to Chirstians (me) remain in good condition.



Originally posted by Jah Warrior
It is not Muslims that are the terrorists or the problem, It is the "EXTREMISTS" be they Right wing Left wing Jewish Muaslim Buddhist or Mormon. any kind of fanatacism will lead to rash actions I believe.

WRONG!! Its NOT just muslim extremists as these PC people keep telling us. It the ENTIRE WAY OF LIFE! Haven't you ever noticed that there NO Arab democracy? Have you never noticed that while these "Extremists" commit these acts of terror, their countries do nothing to stop them. Have you not seen that they teach their OWN CHILDREN to pray for the destruction of the US and Isreal. These are not extreme schools but ALL school in Palestine, and many around the Middle East.

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

The only true solution to the whole thing is education. The sooner that the prejudice and inate fear are eradicated the sooner everyone can get on with their lives again.


There is no fear in this area. Muslims do not fear Jews and Jews do not fear Muslims. What you have here is HATE. While the Isrealis can be just as murderous as the Palestinians the one difference is that in Isreal public schools they don't teach hate. In Palestine they do. Isreal children learn to hate when their sister mothers brother fathers and friends get blown up.

Mafia_Jabba
07-30-2002, 01:08 PM
I just see a bunch of people flinging a bunch of bull #### out their mouth that they heard while watching 5 minutes of CNN or reading the title of a newspaper article and forming their own ideas. Jesus before you get an idea research it fellas.

btw i love listening to uninformed UK citizens argue about the flaws and objectives of us foreign policy. lmao its hallarious. Come live in the US guys, get a good US education and learn a thing or two about our gov.

Breton
07-30-2002, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by FatalStrike



We need their support in order to launch attacks on Iraq.







And why should Iraq be attacked?

Iraq have not invaded any oil place this time, an attack on them will not be seen as an attack for the US to defend themselves.

I would say these plans are typiccaly bush, call the people who do not agree with US for terrorists, then they think it is fair for them to attack and kill lots of civillian while they are on it.

This rumored and stupid attack on Iraq have only brittish support in Europe, all the other major countries (france, germany, italy, russia, spain and so on) will not support a drastic action such as this.

If they do attack, the US will have little good reputation around the world, and will only be seen as a bully country.

Clem
07-30-2002, 02:13 PM
good us education?!

american students (not sure on age but old enuff to know) when asked to point out america on a world map about 40% pointed to russia and said ... "it must be that big 1 there"

and the brits wont support america hopefully

only tony blair likes the americans now hes under pressure not to support them

Datheus
07-30-2002, 02:55 PM
Well, Clem, I must say, if that report is true... then the children where young... VERY young, probably not even in school yet...

Any social studies teacher will tell you... the government reflects the will of the people at the time, as mentioned by someone, also earlier "They should both be taken out of office and replaced...but their replacements will probably only be more radical" It's true... the a Government is just as much a way to run a country as a reflection of the hearts of the people

It's the other way around in this situation... You MUST see the trees for the forest

What needs to happen, is we need to STOP giving military support to Israel... it's like giving fire to a child... The air stikes on Bethleham from a few weeks ago... they were American built Apache helecopters... What the hell is that? We have to stop feeding the fire "Well, how will they defend themselves" you ask... well, if they can't defend themselves...they'll be much more happy to organize peace, now won't they? And if the Palastinians don't back off? Well, they just want their land back, so if that can be reached in the peace agreements, that should probably help... Any Jews who don't like living with Palastinians... get the #### out... Learn some tolerance, they both should

"But the Jewish people have their home there" Well, so didn't the Pallys... But the UN had no trouble coming in and taking it from them... The air strikes from just last week sicken me... you don't need Air to Surface missiles to take out one man, they military support needs to be pulled

And Jews people in America voting all screwy cause we pulled out of Israel... they should get out of America

If 9-11 should have taught us ANYTHING as Americans... WE are brothers and sisters WE must work as a team, NOT half of us and some left-wing radicals half way on the other side of the world

As America... as a SINGLE entity... we cannot step between two brothers... we will only end up dead along with them

Mafia_Jabba
07-30-2002, 03:01 PM
Darth Clem, why is it we're so dumb yet leading the world in technology, economy, etc. Damn, geography must not lie in the status of world power? Foreign students eh? But where are they studying? Perhaps the lure of America is not in its brilliance, but in its opportunity. Good 'ol US education. I dont see many Jap's rushing anywhere else to study. Well perhaps good ol' Ox, but still. Don't give that dumbass statistic, its probably very biased. As in given to janitors who are 60 years old and can't see and dropped out of highschool. Give me the rest of the info on that sheet and perhaps it will seem believable. Stats are nothing to go off of. Still what I said wasn't merely pertaining to our geographic ability if you would have noticed. I was actually saying that you can't really get a broad spectrum of what we are about from outside of the U.S.

Support of Israel hmmm... lets ponder. After WWII, Truman Doctrine=support of democracy. Israel=Democracy. Palestine=somewhat of an aggressor against Israel. What does all this have in common. Well, any pre-algebra student will realize that America is the "Arsenal of Democracy". Israel may not use their weapons in the right manner, but if they are ours and we are still dealing with and helping Israel then the US has great influence over what they do. Perhaps we haven't done as much as we should as far as peace agreements go, but its still not too late to initiate those plans. Thats the great thing about democracy, its very flexible for change. As long as we are a key player in Israel we still have a strong change of initiating those plans for peace. If only we'd start.

The Brits not supporting America? Didn't I see a lot of Europeans protesting the war on terror. I think it was French, and not Brits inparticular. But jesus that seems rather silly to me. It seems many Euro's need to take a look at the real world and see what really needs to be done. Brits not support the US. So the Brits aren't going to support the US when it tries to initiate peace? So the US feeds weapons, thats what its policy is to democracy. Provide defense, how they use it is their business. But Brits not supporting the US when they try to initiate cease fire seems ridiculous.

Datheus
07-30-2002, 03:09 PM
Well, he said it was given to kids... but don't get to high on your horse Jabba.. I heard on some news station that about 50% of America's scientists come from foreign countries... Some insane number like that... our education is good...but it could be much better... we sink millions, billions even, of dollars where it doesn't belong, when it should be going into education

-edit- Yes...Jabba...with our support, we do have strong influence... and I think pulling out is the best way to get Israel to stop making those attacks that kill everyone but the people they say they're attack... they simply don't need MISSILES to take out ONE man, just a well placed sniper

Qui-GONE Jinn
07-30-2002, 03:25 PM
Frankly, I've had enough of America's world police attitude. Don't you Americans see that Bush has no desire for peace in the middle east? The only thing that no-brainer wants, is war, and to flex his muscles at the rest of the world. Bush is not a smart man. And many of you Americans are too indoctrinated with nationalism - you are almost fanatical in the belief that America just IS the best place to live, and if anyone believes anything else, well, then you feel sorry for them. Like, "poor man, he doesn't understand that we're far better off here than where he lives"! The American patriotism isn't healthy.
AND you seem to have reallyyyy high thoughts of yourselves and your world police-role.
Why should America care about Vietnam, for example. Was there any political reason? You guys just had to start a fight, hadn't you, because their ideas didn't suit you. Because of your arrogance and towering self-esteem, as well as a firm belief that the AMERICANS are the ones who should clean the world of all evil, thousands of your boys were slaughtered. I'm glad Viet-Cong won, though, after being raped by the US like that. America have this attitude that the AMERICANS are the ones who shall clean the world of all evil - you Holy Mission or something...Just too bad that your ideas of evil isn't necissarily the right ones.

One main reason of the US's siding with Israel is because of the high percentage of Jewish citizens in your country. How many percent of your population is Jewish? MANY! Bush's integrity is virtually none-existant. He's bought.

Whu should you attack Iraq? Is there any reason?? "Yea, we gonna ####en get Saddam now!" Why bother? He hasn't done anything wrong recently, has he? No, Bush only wants to flex his muscles. Your country should get better management. And get rid of the destructive patriotism!

The US should calm down, and don't play at being Holy Knights Off To Save The World. Or something.

Clem
07-30-2002, 03:29 PM
hear hear!!

:)

Mafia_Jabba
07-30-2002, 03:36 PM
I just wanna rebutt one thing. Just to start a fight with Iraq? If you would read or watch the news you would know that he is developing weapons of mass destruction, and he is a fantatical man that is truely evil. He would not hesitate to use them, and therefore we must protect ourselves and our neighboring allies from him. Its not just to start a fight with a bad guy. He has done many things wrong, such as not allow UN inspectors. and yes, Iraq is apart of the UN.

wanna go back to world war I or world war II? We were damn fanatical about that weren't we eh? I'm glad we were, for we were helping out friends.
The Politics about vietnam. Its sad that many people dont know them. Yes there were reasons for vietnam. First, communist governments. We all know what kind of sticklers they are especially from world war II, and we all know what sitting on the side and doing nothing does right? It seems no one learns from history. And yes, the Viet-Cong was being backed by Russian and China communist gov, so it was really a battle not just between US and Vietnam, but between democracy and communist governments. LOL and American fanaticism. Look at the billions and billions of dollars we give in aid to so many countries. Thats help is it not? Sure its spent in the wrong ways sometimes, but thats correctable.

The truth is no one will ever change their views. Not you or I nor anyone else despite clear evidence. The only thing we can do is try to make the best choices when they come up and try to live the best lives we can, because no of this #### matters anyway. Its either going up or going down. Personally I'd rather go up. And I hope you go up too Qui.

obi
07-30-2002, 03:45 PM
All I have to say is that if you are in AMerica, and you don't want to be, get out! :)

And another thing- Canada is the best place to live. You don't beleive me, go live there for a while. :)

Everyone is nice and there is no war. :)

razorace
07-30-2002, 03:53 PM
You guys just in a pissing contest or are you going to actually debate this. I partially agree with both of you. The US gets involved in WAY too much crap that isn't our biz. The problem with Isreal is that WE helpped start the damn thing in the first place, so politically we can't just pull out, but we also can't just Force an agreement as there is a big jewish vote in the States (and most Jews feel that Isreal is "in the right", period.). Yes, the Palestinians DID attack Isreal and Isreal DID defend itself, but the Isreallies have been brutal in their occupation and the whole thing happened 50 years ago! Both sides need to back WAY the hell off and talk things out.

Qui-GONE Jinn
07-30-2002, 03:55 PM
Vietnam....as you put it, yet another of America's crusade to right other people's "wrongs". Us vs. the rest.

And I do know the politics behind Vietnam! I do know about the Domino-theory. It's in our curriculum, you know. you know, I do see parallells between the recent Iraq thing and Vietnam. US rising to battle something that isn't really wrong. Why couldn't the poor Vietnamese have Communist government? You don't even know what communism IS, do you? Explain it for me, so that I may correct you later, please! The ideals of communism in it self is good. The ideals are GOOD! Not Satan's Evil. The problem is that the way communism was "practiced" so to speak, was lacking, and didn't lead to so many good things all the time. But there were good things as well, never doubt it. The thing is, Stalin's way wasn't genuine communism, he twisted it, and gave communism it's bad reputation. Stalin was a horrible head of state, and it lead to MUCH suffering for the russians. Many people, and almost every American has no clue of what the communist-ideals are about. Now Jabba-who-knows-all, explain the ideals for me. I'm waiting patiently.
Now I'll probably be flamed for being from a "damn socialist country" or something. That only supports my statement that you are indoctrinated with the idea that your system is the best. Period. And you have to make everyone live like yourself. that isn't democracy, it's dictatorship. And communism does NOT equal dictatorship.


I hope I made my point clear. The fact that another nation uses another system, doesn't make it evil, and doesn't dictate that US moves in to force their own system down people's throats. That's not freedom.

"Halls of justice painted green, money talking..
power wolves beset your door, hear them stalking
soon you'll please their appetite, they devour
hammer of 'Justice' crushes you
overpower"
-Metallica "...And Justice For All"

you said:

"Jesus guys you are listening to your brainwashed parents a little too much at the dinner table."

Quite the contrary...you are brainwashed with your American superiority...we all know it.



Why should you do battle to the Communists? Did it bother you that they had a different system than you, and were pleased with it?

Clem
07-30-2002, 03:59 PM
Communism is as qui said ... a BRILLIANT system .... its just prone to people taking advantage of it (this is what i understand happened in russia)

but ill let jabba explain y its evil

id like to see him try .... cos quite simply ... it isnt

Qui-GONE Jinn
07-30-2002, 04:05 PM
what had communism to do with the world wars? Nothing! At-All! Germany was a terrifying dictatorship at both times!
And we Europeans are truly, greatly appreciative of the help of the US. It's just too bad that this gave them appetite for war, and now use every chance to throw themselves into a conflict with their weapons drawn!

Rereading my post, I overdid it...Weapons of mass destruction is of course wrong. But there's nothing to say that they are going to use it, is it? Is the US the only country where one can make rocket shields and defenses without getting assaulted? Seems unfair, and people should be given the benifit of doubt. Maybe tempered with some caution.

Just don't make oyur disagreement with communism the battle of heaven and hell. It's not. Read some of the points of my earlier post.

PS: I try to live a good life, and be a good person. What Bush is doing in the middle east isn't good...and i expect to go up as you phrase it. And I hope to see you there when the time comes :)

Qui-GONE Jinn
07-30-2002, 04:23 PM
Well, I'm off to bed guys. Work tomorrow...I'm looking forward to continuing the discussion tomorrow! see you all...

Mafia_Jabba
07-30-2002, 04:47 PM
We are argueing over Vietnam in a JKII.net forum about Israel and the US.

So the U.S. didn't want communists to rule over southeast asia. BTW I didn't mean WWII communists I meant to say post WII. Let me ask you something. Would you mind your nation being communist if it were to change today? Sure it means well, but so does Islam. We dont go blasting in every situation possible too, or we would be in a lot of wars currently.

And why do people think we fight for the sake of fighting? Is it because we always have won? Why is it? All of our fights are backed correctly pollitically, mabe people outside of our country may not understand because they are not familiar with policy. Hell, who cares though?

BTW I'm don't consider myself brainwashed. I'm not one of those people who love america because we can blow #### up. I am familiar with the facts. Vietnam had bad leadership and somewhat bad backing, but we've changed since then and thats good. We now use military force only as a last resort. This thought that America is the neighborhood mob is absurd. We wouldn't be giving foreign aid if that were the case would we.

Breton
07-30-2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by Mafia_Jabba


And why do people think we fight for the sake of fighting? Is it because we always have won? Why is it? All of our fights are backed correctly pollitically, mabe people outside of our country may not understand because they are not familiar with policy. Hell, who cares though?



Let's see at the outcome of the wars the US have been in.

First war "Freedom" fight somewhere in the 1700s:

Because some people who wanted cheaper tea a war for so called "freedom" began. At first the americans were slaughtered, but then the french came in to the war, fighting the brittish. The french really didn't care about US they just hated the brittish. So when the french won the war and got back to their homes, Americans thought they had won the war and celebrated the people who fled from the first battles for war heroes and everyone was so proud.

Second war 1812:

Some yankees blamed the english for bad weather, and was batteling against them again. This was really a loss, the brittish got control over washington and burned the white house, but then the brittish had to go home to fight against Napoleon (the french saves US again). US also attacked canada, but lost of course, and that loss is never in american history books.

I know very little about WW1

WW2:

After lost a whole bunch of ships to the Japanese, US decided to go to war again, the first thing they did was to create a mass destruction bomb wich they send to Japanese civillian cities and killed hundreds of thousands civillians. Then they looked eastwards against germany and saw that Hitler was fighting a losing battle agains russia and britain. They bombed a few german schools, and suddenly they were the heroes of the war, at least in their home country.

Vietnam war:

America don't like the new goverment of vietnam since they don't do it as US. Instead of leaving the viatnemese happy of their new goverment, the american suddenly starts to fight against them, using mass destruction weapons, killing millions of civillians and destroys much vegetation. And when the big bullys from US is losing, they go home and cries over their shattered pride, wich would soon rebuild.

2001\2002 war against so called "terrorism"

When a couple of guys who dislikes US is taking some planes and chrushes WTS (this was tragic because of civillian losses, it would have been ok if they had taken a symbolic target like lady of liberty, then they would only chrush americas pride instead of civillian), then they pledge war against taliban, who is hiding in caves. When their planes cant find the taliban, they spend their bombs at civillian towns instead, saying it was accidents.


By the way Qui-GONE Jinn, great posts!

KnightHawk420
07-30-2002, 07:00 PM
Jews have spent almost they're entire history being abused by the rest of the world. America is one of the few countries that does not have a bad relations past with jews. Probably because a large part of the early boom of the last century was from jews... but anyway... jews have been persecuted for thousands of years, with probably the single largest "evil" thing being the holocaust.

In nearly every way what troubles ailes them today is for the exact same reasons that existed 2000 years ago. The continual persecution of the jews. And by the same god damn people. They can call themselves palestinians but by far and large are neverthe less representative of most of the region. They all want Israel and it's people dead. Or at the very least would not be heartbroken by they're extermination. The BIG difference is that now Israel has a far more advanced military than all the nations that surround them, with maybe the exception of Egypt. Even furthermore they have a 800 pound gorilla watching they're back (US). In many ways this has set the stage for albeit unnatural pecking order.

When it comes down to it, it's a 2000 year old seeded hatred of the people. And will NOT in the likely future go away whatsoever. Arabas will talk and talk and talk, but the bottom line is they want to put the jews out. They don't want peace, they don't even really give a rats ass about they're own state.... They just want to get what the jews got, and then rid themselves of the jews. The arabs already know they wil never win a militarily, so they are going to let they're population push them out through increase and bulk human expansion. Essentially some arabs move into a part of israel when they're reproduced sufficiently they declare that part of the country they're own.


Israel kill em all and let Alla sort them out. WW3 is just around the corner...

Breton
07-30-2002, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by KnightHawk420

Even furthermore they have a 800 pound gorilla watching they're back (US).

Not bad to compare US with a gorilla: big, bully and not very smart.

Mafia_Jabba
07-30-2002, 07:22 PM
lol Qui Gonn your sense of American history is so majorly ####ed I can't even begin to explain it. It sounds as if you read a bunch of saturday night live skits and then just wrote them down in your own words and you believe that is history. LMAO. shut up man you haven't the slightest clue.

God I could go on and on about your ####ed up version of the America Revolution, the War of 1812, World War II especially (where the hell did you get this information the city zoo???), and war on terror jesus. What the #### do you know about American military history you norweigian prick.

Breton
07-30-2002, 07:24 PM
It is the truth...seen from another point of view.

Mafia_Jabba
07-30-2002, 07:26 PM
God if you believe that is the truth then you are in for a very miserable life of disappointment and dissatisfaction.

Mafia_Jabba
07-30-2002, 07:28 PM
Bully, typical European attitude. So helping Europeans out in both world wars was being a bully. Trying to help Somalia not STARVE is being a bully. Liberating taliban oppression is being a bully? saving the whole damn world from the russians is a bully? You brainwashed ####.

Not very smart, so being the strongest economy means we're dumb. Being on the latest technological breakthroughs is dumb. Hmmmmm....

Smitdog
07-30-2002, 07:28 PM
My friend.
Israel is NOT a democracy but a Socialist Country.
Socialism = ?

United Soviet Socialist Republic

God Bless the servicemen that were onboard the U.S.S. Liberty

http://www.ussliberty.org

Clem
07-30-2002, 07:30 PM
hey hey .... u know u call Sadam Hussain evil

y?

Hes got "weapons of mass destruction" .... so has america

hes attack countries unprovoked ... so does america

i thought of a few more earlier ... but u can see the point

and u cripled russia ... thats not nice is it

Mafia_Jabba
07-30-2002, 07:31 PM
Clem do you think at all about anything when u post?

Clem
07-30-2002, 07:33 PM
y should i?

u dont

u just spool out american bull

Breton
07-30-2002, 07:33 PM
My post was really meant half joke, half not.

You must be quite stupid not to see that.

Mafia_Jabba
07-30-2002, 07:34 PM
lol ok it seems that you obviously dont know jack ####...so why bother anymore

-its pretty hard to realize it when reading, smart ass, and not hearing something called a tone of voice. Try thinking a bit, it helps.

Breton
07-30-2002, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Mafia_Jabba
saving the whole damn world from the russians is a bully? You brainwashed ####.



Saving the world from russians?? LMAO!

What have russians ever done against the world?

And watch your language.

Clem
07-30-2002, 07:39 PM
this fight will neva be won

cos the americans "know" theyre right about everything .... cos ... theyre americans

edit: is there actually any proof of who commited the 11/9 attacks? cos i certainly havent heard of ne

Datheus
07-30-2002, 07:40 PM
Because we wanted cheaper tea? :| The men in charge of the revolution were NOT that yahoos with the guns... it was Jefferson... Franklin... Adams... and the such... They were well read, they spoke FIVE languages, they were the most civilized of their people... They would NEVER go to war with a juggernaught like ENGLAND over tea...

That'd be like YOUR country taking AMERICA on because you think we're #######s... the Forefathers of America had JUST reason, that had to be the most IGNORANT comment I've ever heard

Breton
07-30-2002, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Mafia_Jabba
lol ok it seems that you obviously dont know jack ####...so why bother anymore

-its pretty hard to realize it when reading, smart ass, and not hearing something called a tone of voice. Try thinking a bit, it helps.

Well tnx for the compliment, flamer.

Guess the iq to mafia jabba and you can win a price! Hint: It is less than 80.

Breton
07-30-2002, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Datheus
Because we wanted cheaper tea? :| The men in charge of the revolution were NOT that yahoos with the guns... it was Jefferson... Franklin... Adams... and the such... They were well read, they spoke FIVE languages, they were the most civilized of their people... They would NEVER go to war with a juggernaught like ENGLAND over tea...

That'd be like YOUR country taking AMERICA on because you think we're #######s... the Forefathers of America had JUST reason, that had to be the most IGNORANT comment I've ever heard

This is pure facts:

England had much tolls on wares they transported to US, but then US complained, and England removed all the tolls exept a small on one tea. But even that was too much for the americans, so they ravaged a load of tea from england, they tortured and hanged the innocent captain and laid the blame on indians.

This was the beginning of this "revolution"

Datheus
07-30-2002, 07:46 PM
Well... this started as a civilized conversation about politics... but has some how deteriated into name calling and foolish accusations

This has turned into ignorant shots at history using an interesting mixture of gossip you've collected from your peers and what you've seen on TV... very opinionated... and when things are opinionated... everyone's right, and everyone's wrong... it doesn't matter if you're American or not

This thread should be closed, there's no going back now

Clem
07-30-2002, 07:50 PM
i dont think this or the guns thread have ne place here

a forum with an average age of 17 - 20 isnt the place

im gonna ask rhett to lock this and the guns thread cos theyve deteriated into name calling

yeah ... ive been doing alot of it ... doesnt mean it should happen

Datheus
07-30-2002, 07:53 PM
Honestly... the average age shouldn't matter... after all, 300 or so years ago we'd all be married with our own kids now...

It's the average maturity that matters... which is low, (or it always seems to get low) unfortunately... But I supposed nothing can be done about

Breton
07-30-2002, 07:54 PM
Well, it was certanly not I who started it.

About my post, you cannot deny that much of what i said was true. Example: The thing about canadians beating america not being in american history books, USA winning revolution because of french, US creating mass destruction weapons to kill lots of civillians, american massacreson civillians in Vietnam and much more.

Clem
07-30-2002, 07:55 PM
the problem this argument is a deadlock

and hence has gone into name calling

so i think we should just drop it

Datheus
07-30-2002, 07:56 PM
No, America can't deny actions like those... But which country can? No one is innocent

-edit- Honestly, as an American... there are many things about America that disgusts me...

Breton
07-30-2002, 07:59 PM
No, no one is complitely innocent, and this debate have now lost its meaning, it is pointless, and there is too much name calling. Go ahead and make it closed darth clem

Mafia_Jabba
07-30-2002, 08:07 PM
a #### i dont care anymore, its just our responsibility to make sure the future is right, right?

Peace?

Breton
07-30-2002, 08:12 PM
Guess so. :)

RpTheHotrod
07-30-2002, 08:15 PM
Jews are God's chosen people...and the Jews made a mistake, so they were punished...however, Jews are STILL God's chosen people, and in the end, Jesus will go back there and all of the Jews enemies that surround the area will die by...what SOUNDS like radiation, according to the effects of "it" in the Bible.

All in all, I'm going to be on the Jews side no matter what. They win, I read the ending. :)




I respect the Jews, and would NEVER insult or disrespect a Jew no matter what. If they have God's respect, they have mine.

If I was in the military, and I was commanded to go against the Jews to kill them and became their enemy, I would refuse and go court marshel (Sp?) myself...period.

Datheus
07-30-2002, 08:16 PM
a #### i dont care anymore, its just our responsibility to make sure the future is right, right?

Peace?

Ah... peace is not the question... it's how to get there... which is what this thread is all about... peace in the Middle East... which only sparked more hostility... Hm...go ponder that, lol

That's why there will never be peace on earth, not until we ascend


I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel onnected enough to step aside and weep like a widow. To feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human.

With my feet upon the ground I lose myself between the sounds and open wide to suck it in, I feel it move across my skin. I'm reaching up and reaching out, I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me. And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been. We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been. Spiral out. Keep going, going...
~Tool (www.toolband.com)

-edit- Jews are God's people?... According to WHO? The JEWS...heh That's the problem...religion involving monothiesm such as the current trend involving the bible and what not... tend to be... a disgused form of... arrogance ... for lack of a better word

Mafia_Jabba
07-30-2002, 08:48 PM
Europeans will always think what they want of the Americans and vice versa. There is nothing that can change that so I guess we might as well kick ourselves in the ass, get over it, and have fun even though we haven't been lately.

Kjølen
07-30-2002, 09:44 PM
I believe that we will not know what happens, hopefully peace.
"Praying" to satan will not help but make things much worse
Praying to God is good.
Christ is the only thing that is out there that will save us. But WE CAN STOP THE WAR OURSELVES.

obi
07-30-2002, 11:24 PM
I still say live in canada, and you won't have to worry wiht such foolishness. :)

Here's what I want to say:

Make your opinions so that you do not flame anyone. Do not flame anyone on their opinions. Do not curse because someone thinks someone is a bully.

My View on America-

Nice place to live. Where else can you get hotdogs on a street corner? Or a ride in a bus to and from school? (other then the UK, mind you)

Seriously, our views obviously have no effect what so ever on the government, cause they're gonna do what they want to do, so why should we argue about it? Do you know how many good poloticians there are? I can only think of maybe 3.

I'm going to reply with an obi-wan quote now,

:aobi: She is a polotician, she's not to be trusted.

Arkum
07-30-2002, 11:36 PM
Yeah, the obiwan13 is right, most of these politicians are corrupted by their own status, they don't care about the good of the people, they care about themselves and outdoing the other political party.

So who cares about the government? let them do what they wish, sooner or later they will realize their faults.

Although, the Bush administration isn't as bad as I thought it would be.:p

RpTheHotrod
07-30-2002, 11:53 PM
The Bible says the Jews are.

Go...read.

Reb Starblazer
07-30-2002, 11:54 PM
Closing this thread definetly sounds like a good idea. No matter what everyone here says to everyone else, their own opinions will not change. The right to have an opinion exists everywhere, even in dictatorships(people just don't usually let out their opinions there). This thread, as have countless threads before it dealing with countries, has degenerated into a flame war. People of the U.S., sorry, but the U.S. has gotten a bad name for itself through the years for some of the things it's done and some of it's policies. Basically, (insert well used swear here) happens, that's the only explanation I can offer as to why people think of you that way. But please, at least try to understand other people's thoughts of you, and instead of just coming back with rude responses which is continuing to give America a bad name, just let it be. Or at least say something besides swearing, and degrading the other person's heriatage, please.

I'm not trying to get involved in this, just asking you guys to be a little nicer to each other. If you wanna flame me go ahead. I'll post my thoughts on the situation with Israel, and pointedly ignore your attacks on myself.

Thank you for your time.

RpTheHotrod
07-30-2002, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Kjølen
I believe that we will not know what happens, hopefully peace.
"Praying" to satan will not help but make things much worse
Praying to God is good.
Christ is the only thing that is out there that will save us. But WE CAN STOP THE WAR OURSELVES.

Read the Bible. It explains what will happen...pretty spooky it's so close.

All in all ...the anti-christ comes and DOES create world peace, but in the end, literally all hell breaks loose. Also, the enemies of Jerusalem (Sp?) gather together to destroy it, and they all die....simply put. That dome thing will also be re-built.

This is going to be one interesting ride in the end...the four horsemen...armegeddon, spooky.

We live in interesting times.

Nebelwerfer_
07-31-2002, 02:38 PM
Read the Bible. It explains what will happen...pretty spooky it's so close.

you do understand that if we were ever to have peace talks with countries that are "not judeo christian" then we can never bring up bible stuff. How you would you feel if a muslim said said that the koran says that his prophecised "nation" was going to take over israel because allah said so. As long as people bring up religion and are close minded about these things, the fighting will never stop.

aguelman
07-31-2002, 04:43 PM
Th conflict will never end, because the palestines/arabs can't share the same land with the jews...in 1922, the palestine was divided and 3/4 were reserved for the palestines (through a british mandate, for all students out there...), but no, they can't share with the enemy and now they're paying the price !!!

RpTheHotrod
07-31-2002, 04:57 PM
the Palatines are the Philistines in the Bible...interesting, no? :)


btw, I know they won't accept it, but hey, it's gonna happen anyway.

Breton
07-31-2002, 06:37 PM
The bible is certanly not going to solve this conflict, so stop referring to that.

Another suicide bomb today, on a school. It's just getting worser and worser, also from Israelian side.

If im not wrong, this suicide attack was revenge of Israelian revenge of Palastinian revenge of Israelian revenge and so on.

Who started it, we will never know, this is a conflict wich have been for thousands of years.

But what we do know is that one or both of the parts must take the courage to not revenge the other countrys revenge attack. If not, innocents will die all the time, in fact killed by their own goverment.

"Just let them kill eachother" you might say. The problem is that it is mostly innocents who get killed, not the people who fights this endless war.

It was shown dancing palestinians on tv, having party bcuz of these innocents got murdered. I do think that is mostly what the jews do also, after their bombs have chrushed houses and killed innocent palestinians. This show the hatred these two people have for eachother, a hatred wich only grows continiously.

To solve this matter, we must get rid of this hatred.

Arkum
07-31-2002, 08:53 PM
I agree with JM quigon. Their just trying to get revege on one another. Both sides are too stupid to know wo they're killing, innocent people. 90% of the time ,it is innocent people that are killed. Hopefully the next generation of Palestinians and Israelis will realize their pointless ongoing war that has been going on for thousands of years. Hasn't anyone learned that after thousands of years of fighting, that it isn't solving anything?

aguelman
07-31-2002, 11:45 PM
Where did you saw Israelis celebrating, JM Qui-Gon Jinn ?!?!?!

Arkum
07-31-2002, 11:58 PM
We didn't see them, but you know they do. Just like when we celebrate when we see the Taliban running out of their caves getting whooped.

Anyways, I just hate it when people think they're so smart about everything because they read some crap in the newspaper or watch it on CNN.
The media is mostly opinionated nowadays. The ONLY news channel that gets anything right is BBC, they know how to tell a story, all FACTS.

Some other media scources are good too, such as TIME magazine.
But most scources are terrible.

I hate CNN and MSNBC, and ESPECIALLY FOxnews. They are mostly discussion and opinions, no facts. They don't tell the whole story.

So if you think you're going to post something because you read it in your small town newspaper or watched it on CNN, don't bother.



The only way to reach peace is if they stop fearing each other. This is how all this suffering is fueled. This violence starts with fear.
The Israelis are afraid of the Palestinians.
The Palestinians are afraid of the Israelis.

Hate doesn't destroy hate. Hating each other won't solve anything. The world is corrupted by politics now.
Politicians only do things for their good and for outdoing the other political party, not the good of their people.

aguelman
08-01-2002, 07:41 AM
I've lived there, and I can tell you then even BBC have said a lot of crap...

Th@_BoZkUrT
08-01-2002, 08:08 AM
omg i bet none of you guys are muslim!!!!!


when the acttack on palestina with the kids who have been killed you know what sharon said? :

the attack was succesfull

omg i think the bitch deserves to die!!!!

aguelman
08-01-2002, 08:32 AM
Yes, and Arafat should be declared the 37th Buda !!!

Kurgan
08-01-2002, 09:15 AM
Obviously, it's a complex issue, and most likely nobody here is an expert on it, but my personal opinion?

I think, try as they might, US presence in Israel hasn't solved their problems or those of their neighbors. Maybe a different approach is in order (and no, I'm not talking about bombing the crap out of the region either). Violence isn't the answer to everything. In fact, it usually just begs more questions....

Most of the articles I've read and people I see on TV go on and on about how the US and Israel are inseperable and how "we" have to do everything in our power to support them, right or wrong. But most people I've talked to in person, be their knowledgable about the topic or not, agree that Israel is often wrong, and the US is often wrong when they support them (the blind leading the blind comes to mind). So who knows... I know most people don't want to have their homes attacked by helicopter gunships or missiles, or have bombs exploding in their resteraunts or school. The people should tell their leaders they've had enough, and force them to make peace.

Sadly, I don't think things will get better over there anytime soon. Too many people are just too set in their ways it seems (go figure, look at all the places its like that all over the world).
; p

Perhaps people should look to the teachings of peace in their respective religions and agree on that. Now, I know that people can and have used religion to help justify evil deeds (look in the Bible, the Israelites, the "good guys" of the Bible invoked God on their enemies all the time!), but there are also teachings about loving your neighbor, forgiving your enemy, making peace, letting God judge and letting your enemy go his own way, and not trying to kill him, but be patient and help him to see the light.

Surely these people can agree that an "eye for an eye" just makes the whole world blind...

Qui-GONE Jinn
08-01-2002, 11:36 AM
Nice post Kurgan...

Reb Starblazer
08-01-2002, 11:47 AM
Ghandi, excellent quote Kurgan. We're all starting to agree on the same things here. As I said before, people need to stop wanting revenge, cuz that's the problem. Revenge has been fueling this for what, a thousand years? Teaching your children to hate the others, and they pass it on to their children. I've lived over there, I've seen it. Thankfully my parents taught me better. But like I said, sometime, it's finally going to have to reach it's breaking point. Sometime, someone/people are going to finally have enough. Finally stand up and ask "Why? Why are we doing this?" Realize that revenge, hatred and war are not solving thier problems, but are in fact causing them.

The only problem is, it's going to have to get worse before it gets better. More innocent people will die, more family will swear revenge, before someone finally realizes that the life of their family member isn't really worth taking another person's life. Not that their life wasn't worth anything, but that it's not worth taking away yet another life. That's 2 people, probably children, gone, instead of 1 person, who could have been seen as a reason not to fight, so that another child doesn't have to die like they did. Finally people are going to start to realize this. That's why I think the U.S. should pull out, let them sort it out for themselves. Once it gets bad enough, they'll start talking. I honestly hope it doesn't come to that, but I've always been a realist as opposed to an optimist.

Darth Talliusc
08-01-2002, 07:40 PM
Reb, you spoke exactly what i feel. thank you, i agree fully with you and thats kind of sad. i always hoped that someday people would just see how lucky they are to live and stop killing. (i actually had delusions that when y2k came ppl would be so scared of death that they would stop killing outright, poor me) take a look at ireland. its calmed down a fair bit now but people are still dying over there just because of difference in religion.

isnt the point of most organized religions to bring people together and do what is right in life? i get really sad when i read about these people.

<JOTD>Jedi Hunter
08-01-2002, 08:19 PM
Why is this thread here? It's not enough that I have to hear this crap on tv but I have to hear(read) it here to? This forum is for Starwars... Not this crap.

obi
08-01-2002, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by jessman233
Why is this thread here? It's not enough that I have to hear this crap on tv but I have to hear(read) it here to? This forum is for Starwars... Not this crap.

Stop whining!

:mad:

If you don't want to see this thread, ignore it. If you think it should be closed, PM a mod or something. Add to the topic or don't post. jeeze.......

Anyways, Kurgan has a point.(As always, for he is the expert on things like that)

But I think we should mind our own business and stay out of the middle east. Like I said earlier, they are fueled by hatered, and a few words aren't going to solve anything.

The "Peace talks" are all talk and no peace.

Nebelwerfer_
08-01-2002, 09:54 PM
Why is this thread here? It's not enough that I have to hear this crap on tv but I have to hear(read) it here to? This forum is for Starwars... Not this crap

ok mr idiot, this is in yoda's swamp. why dont you read the description of yoda's swamp and shut up. I dont care if you like dont like to know whats going on in the world but "it's bad enough I have to hear idiots like you complain about hearing stuff"
how old are you, 12? no seriously?

Arkum
08-01-2002, 11:57 PM
I agree with obiwan 13.

My feelings are that both sides want peace, but their governments don't.

I saw on a special report, a school that both Israeli and Palestinians kids attend. They get along like best friends. No enmity at all.

They also showed a teenage Palestinian whose best friend was an Israeli. They also got along very well. Their whole neighborhood is made up of both Palestinians and Israelis. Everyone gets along well there.

My point is that the people want peace, but the governments don't. They can't look to us to setthings right, we have our own problems(the economy, for example).

This is their war. They started it. They must end it.

If they don't find a way to end it.....
no one will.