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View Full Version : Thread for the advancement of JK2 animation abilitys!


Kinja
08-01-2002, 07:34 AM
I know this is not model related but since there is no official area for animation, I ask that we use this one thread for any and all shareing of knowledge of animation related stuff. I believe the future of this community depends on this. Cuase personally plugging in new models is only going to take this community so far. inorder for this community to survive we need the power to make real Total Conversions. And we cant do that without the ability to make custom animations. So Raven or Lucas if your listening, please help us out, your our only Hope!

Emon
08-01-2002, 05:00 PM
Well, James Monroe from Raven told us all we really need is 3DSM and Carcass to get animations into the game. You make the animations in 3DSM, export to XSI, and use Carcass to make the GLA. This would work for new skelaton and whole new animation files, say for an arena monster like MeLoN's reek.

Now if we wanna modify the existing humanoid.gla we either have to import it somehow with a GLA importer or get our hands on raw animation data in XSI form. I've heard Raven was going to arrange a release of the XSI animation data (something like 600MB) or possibly a GLA importer, either would probably work.

agentj64
08-01-2002, 05:30 PM
600mb of animation data? wow..and i thought it was only 9:)

Im personally somewhat displeased at how LucasArts is handling the advancement of the mod community, companies like DE and Valve have done great job but sigh:\

a TC would be nice if the complete source were released

GabrielXen
08-01-2002, 05:34 PM
If we can't make new animations, then how did Dest get the taunt in JediMod to do the saber spin-thing...? Was that just coding..?

-Gabriel-

:c3po:

Gram_Reaper
08-01-2002, 08:09 PM
Yeah i think or the moves were already used by someone in the game. But 600mb. Nice, we might be able to finally pull this off in time.

Emon
08-01-2002, 08:11 PM
600 MB for the raw animation data or something, 9 is compiled into a GLA I guess.

As of now, any new animations you've seen are already in the GLA.

Gram_Reaper
08-01-2002, 09:10 PM
now how many of us actually have these programs, and who can get them

Emon
08-01-2002, 09:21 PM
3DSM is about 3 grand USD, but easily warez. XSI 2.0.1 is the alternative which costs a hell of a lot more and nearly impossible to warez.

Everything else you need comes with the JO editing tools (e.g. Carcass).

Kinja
08-01-2002, 10:52 PM
Great, so now, where can I get XSI. Hmmm...

Mr.Blonde
08-01-2002, 11:09 PM
I think i have it

Emon
08-01-2002, 11:13 PM
You THINK you have it? I doubt it... It costs a good $10,000.

You don't even need XSI, all you need is 3DSM 4.x, which is MUCH easier to acquire...

Mr.Blonde
08-01-2002, 11:17 PM
I have something called Softimage 3D 3.9.2

Edit: It isnt working cause i am retarded and dont know how to set it up because there are like wierd ports and crap involved but am searching for XSI right now and think i found it.

Gram_Reaper
08-01-2002, 11:31 PM
I think sharereactor has them but you need to get edonkey 2000 and it dl at a very slow pace. About 20kbps max. But its free. Thats how i get most of my stuff.

Twisted Vertex
08-01-2002, 11:35 PM
I am in too help also, I have been playing with xsi for quite some time, now....about a month......SO i understand the layout, and know the routine of animations

Kinja
08-01-2002, 11:42 PM
Cool, even better if we don't need XSI:) But earlier you said this: "You make the animations in 3DSM, export to XSI, and use Carcass to make the GLA". Anyways, what I really need to do is to just make all new animations. I don't plan on using any of the pre existing animations as the TC Mod I want to do is not even set in the Star Wars Universe. So do we or do we not need XSI at some point or another to do this? Sorry, I just want to make sure.

dreddsnott
08-02-2002, 04:09 AM
I have XSI 2.0.1.

My college major used to be computer and video imaging (3D modeling, etc.), and my grandpa financed my edumacation in every way...

It's a shame because I can't really use it right. And still, I hope we don't need it. It would be a crushing blow to the community or a strong temptation to pirate it.

Mr Tim
08-07-2002, 09:43 PM
So... where is this up to? Does anyone have a definitive answer on what we will need to make new animations or when we are likely to figure this one out?

This thread seems to have ended with some unanswered questions and some people who had heard things but weren't sure.

So - what do we know for certain, based on what Raven has said, and when do we expect to know more?

Emon
08-08-2002, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by Kinja
I don't plan on using any of the pre existing animations as the TC Mod I want to do is not even set in the Star Wars Universe. So do we or do we not need XSI at some point or another to do this? Sorry, I just want to make sure.

Oh, you'll certantly need them. Running, walking, jumping, shooting, talking, all of those are excellent motion captured animations that would be extremely difficult to reproduce (especially the transition animations, those suck).

KapnKeg
08-08-2002, 03:06 AM
For obvious financial reasons, people have to give up on the idea of motion capture animations. If anybody IS going to figure out a way to put original animations into a multiplayer model for jk2, then it will have to be done with plain old keyframe animation ... like the way it is in quake 3. Unless, of course, you're absurdly rich and can afford a few hours in a professional motion capture studio just to make a player model that will give you zero return on your investment ;)

Now, I'm no motion capture expert by any means, but I would assume that the only difference between "keyframe" animation and "motion capture" animation is that when somebody bases all their animation off of motion captured frames, then basically that IS keyframe animation, only every bone gets "keyed" in every frame ... instead of every 3,4, or 10 frames. That's just an assumtion though. In theory, I could be wrong. ;)

SiThLoRd><1000
08-08-2002, 03:20 AM
I can just d/l 3D Studio Max somewhere? My fiendish friend has the one you speak of and wont tell me where he found it for he is bastardly. Emon could you get back to me?

sithlordx1000@hotmail.com

SiThLoRd><1000
08-08-2002, 03:22 AM
Are you working on those the newer version of those sweet Clone models? I emailed you right when they were posted on jediknightii.net about some flaws here and there.

Kinja
08-08-2002, 03:44 AM
Well, my lead animator has been a pro in the industry for atleast 3 yrs and is more than capable of doing the animations. You think you have to use mo-cap to do good animations? Hardly, besides think about what your saying. Look at it this way, even if our animator sucked that would be all the more reason why I would want all new animations. I mean it would look pretty funny if your like, walking all cool with your nice mocapped animations and then you start in with your crappy Keyframed animations for the Kung Fu. Anyways, this won't be the case, cause my homie is a very talented animator. Anyways, I appreciate the technical help Emon, but try and have a little faith in me. And BTW, I am a little worried about how or if we can do this, but its the codeing side that worries me because hey, I can't do that part of the mod. But trust me, the art side of this Mod is in good hands. So if it really is possible to do full on custom animations, then its no problem.

SAIK HUAT
08-08-2002, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by Emon
600 MB for the raw animation data or something

I dont think that would be possable to release as people would take forever to download it. Also you will have to look at possabilitys if Raven were to sell 600MB of 2 years animation instead of giving it away for free.

If we want to expand the TC world we need to build on new weapons not JUST animations. Maybe some four legged characters as well.

Anavel Gato
08-08-2002, 08:18 AM
Motion capture isn't ideal either because the raw data you get from it still needs some fine-tuning. You can create equally good animations by keyframing them manually. You "just" need the skills, patience and time to learn it as with anything else.

Motion capture is used a lot for a large quantity of needed animations like for large crowds in movies where they don't want everybody to walk, run fight etc. the same way.

Is it possible to:
- Make animations of the skeleton in 3D Studio Max.
- Export is as XSI and compile a GLA of it in Carcass.
- Compile a finished XSI model in Carcass that uses the newly compiled GLA instead of the _humanoid.gla.
- In ModView you should be able to see if the model uses the new animation.

You could try this with a single, short and easy animation to see if it works. For instance the skeleton kicking itself in the head which is only 2 keyframes :)

Maybe I'll give that a shot this weekend.

Just wondering why you have to use Softimage but I'm probably missing some small & important detail :)

Toonces
08-08-2002, 08:32 AM
I think you got the jist of it Anavel :D The one thing that we lack it the ability to modify and import existing animations in game. This is a damn shame :(

I noticed a post from the mapper over at Wired Lamp Studios stating that they may be looking soon to abandon JKII in favor of a game engine that's more flexible to work with. That would be unfortunate to say the least

Raven, (I hope somebody from them sees this) and Lucas Arts, you guys are sitting on a potential cash cow, but only if you guys explain to us how we can do our own animations. If WLS, one of the few highly orginized mod groups out there for this game, decides to bolt from JKII in favor of a more flexible, the rest of the community might not be that far behind.

heh, I'll stop my plea there, you guys have probly heard it before ;)

Toonces
www.drivingcatstudios.com
Powered by Sith :lightning

Anavel Gato
08-08-2002, 08:53 AM
I am sure that Raven will release a tool that allows editing and creation of animations.
The length of the period that a game stays popular and therefor sells depends for a large part on available MODs it's MOD-making community. I'm sure that Raven/LucasArts realises this.

Besides that has anybody ever emailed somebody at Raven about this?

MacD
08-08-2002, 09:07 AM
Anavel, don't forget making a new animations.cfg file to go with the new .gla file...

Anavel Gato
08-08-2002, 09:31 AM
Good 1 MacD. I would have forgotten that 1 :)
I'm gonna try some things out this weekend.

Goreld
08-08-2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Anavel Gato
Motion capture isn't ideal either because the raw data you get from it still needs some fine-tuning. You can create equally good animations by keyframing them manually. You "just" need the skills, patience and time to learn it as with anything else.

Motion capture is used a lot for a large quantity of needed animations like for large crowds in movies where they don't want everybody to walk, run fight etc. the same way.

Is it possible to:
- Make animations of the skeleton in 3D Studio Max.
- Export is as XSI and compile a GLA of it in Carcass.
- Compile a finished XSI model in Carcass that uses the newly compiled GLA instead of the _humanoid.gla.
- In ModView you should be able to see if the model uses the new animation.

You could try this with a single, short and easy animation to see if it works. For instance the skeleton kicking itself in the head which is only 2 keyframes :)

Maybe I'll give that a shot this weekend.

Just wondering why you have to use Softimage but I'm probably missing some small & important detail :)

Sorry, but good luck animating a guy swinging a lightsaber WITHOUT mo-cap. The patience it takes, as well as the skills, to make that look good go through the roof! If you don't believe me, go attempt it yourself. Especially the what? 17,000 frames of animation? Hint: many people spend many months animating an animated short that's around 3 minutes long. That's 180 frames of animation.

Anavel Gato
08-08-2002, 11:27 AM
17,000 frames of animation seems like a huge amount but it's not that bad. I'm guessing but Raven probably had 12 to 18 months of development time for JK2 and 1 good animator (and they must have very skilled people) can do this in that period of time.

Somebody who is skilled at animating can make a guy swinging a lightsaber look just as good as the animations in JK2. These 17.000 frames also include all animations for the cutscenes. For a MOD you wouldn't need this amount of animations

My animation experience is limited and I wouldn't be able to do this. I just wanna try out if you can get self-made animations to work in JK2. I'm just gonna make 1 or 2 really simple animation sequences for this test. Maybe a nice "bump&grind" move for my padme model :eek:

Major Clod
08-08-2002, 11:29 AM
Sorry, but good luck animating a guy swinging a lightsaber WITHOUT mo-cap. The patience it takes, as well as the skills, to make that look good go through the roof! If you don't believe me, go attempt it yourself. Especially the what? 17,000 frames of animation? Hint: many people spend many months animating an animated short that's around 3 minutes long. That's 180 frames of animation.

Mate, so many games have great animations and don't use motion capture. Besides, using motion capture for games isn't exactly the be all and end all of creating animations. Games require every animation to be completely chainable with every other animation, so that all the movement is smooth. With motion capture, each animation has to be tuned anyway so that it flows with the other perfectly. You don't think the motion capture actor could do twenty different transition animations, each one ending up in exactly the same spot do you?

Anyway, I think most people seem to be missing the point of this thread! The ability to create new animations would be for those models that are not of the biped nature, that do not have anything to do with the original raven animations. They will be used for mods, not player models! And this whole, "as if you are going to create 17000 frames of animation" thing is really starting to piss me off. If you are making a freaking mod, with a creature such as a rancor, why the hell would it need to have 17000 frames? It can be perfectly usable with generic run, walk, pain and idle animations, and a few different death animations thrown in for variety. And to all you motion capture lovers, where exactly do you think you are going to get a rancor to jump in to the studio and whip up a couple of animations for you?

Kinja
08-08-2002, 01:50 PM
Hehe, exactly:smirk2: Although, I will have all Humanoind charachters in my mod, and weopons like Swords and nun Chucks which will be even harder than the mystical lightsaber to animate IMO. The point is, don't underestimate the power of good old fasioned Keyframe animation. Most of my friends in the animating circle practically despise mocap. Theres just not that much of an art too it. Its kinda like this, its like Final Fantasy the movie was cool, but it would have been alot cooler if it hadn't been so damn realistic. Know what I mean?

agentj64
08-08-2002, 04:16 PM
hrm

KMan
08-24-2002, 02:21 AM
Quick update to you all.
XSI/Softimage Demo version is now available (http://www.softimage.com/Products/xsi/v2/ExperienceCD/Get_It.htm)

This should give a much needed boost to creating your own sets of animations.

Emon
08-24-2002, 03:54 AM
Just to let everyone know, most of JO's saber animations were done by hand.

Jolts
08-24-2002, 07:46 AM
"Sorry, but good luck animating a guy swinging a lightsaber WITHOUT mo-cap. The patience it takes, as well as the skills, to make that look good go through the roof! If you don't believe me, go attempt it yourself. Especially the what? 17,000 frames of animation? Hint: many people spend many months animating an animated short that's around 3 minutes long. That's 180 frames of animation."

Remember 17,000 running at 30 frames per second. In school we were given a month to model/setup and animate a 30 second animation piece.

17,000 frames sounds like a lot, but its not. A huge chunk of the animation in jo is cutscene stuff. It's not hard to do 30 frame walk or run cycle. The hardest part of animating is having good timing/interesting key poses.

Dark Cloak
08-25-2002, 04:43 PM
I'm still under the impression that the hardest part of creating new animations would be getting them into the actual game...actually doing them doesn't seem all that difficult, just as long as you know what you're doing. And Emon, when you say "done by hand", do you mean that the lightsaber animations were done with keyframes with a mouse? I'm not a modeling and animation guru :P so I was wondering if that's correct?

Jolts
08-25-2002, 05:13 PM
hand animation...

at frame 1 you bend your character in to crouched position and key frame the joints. Move the slider to frame 5 and put your character into new position and key freame it, pose to pose to pose.

Motion capture....

put guy in a suit covered in little glitter balls and let him dance the tango in a ring of cameras capturing the data from each ball. Take that data and attach it to a skeleton, smooth out any corrupt data, holes in the animation where maybe a hand or leg covered up a ball left a gap in the animation.

KMan
08-25-2002, 07:43 PM
And that is why you use IK on the joints. It really isn't hard for an experienced animator to do new animations by hand. Yes, it is time consuming, but since getting access to a mocap studio (a good one, or you might as well just do them by hand) is either very difficult or expensive.

UniKorn
08-26-2002, 06:23 AM
Hi all,

first of all, the thread about me stating that we might switch to another engine is indeed true. We are still discussing it, and I am looking at the implications of it all.

But when I looked at these posts, I think I misread a lot of stuff. If I am understanding this correctly, this means that we can build our own animations, but that we cannot use the ones Raven created and add a few new animations to it?

It will mean more work for the modellers if we have to start from scratch on it, but that then just have to be the case.

If my statement here is correct, please confirm it. It would not force us to switch to another engine.

dreamer
08-26-2002, 07:55 AM
UniKorn I think it's the other way around, you can only ADD animation to the existing humanoid and recompile it, but u cannot make a completely new one, correct me if I'm wrong cuz thats wut I understand from the posts

MacD
08-26-2002, 03:25 PM
So what's Raven's latest word about this? Appart from having to d/l a 650 mb file to compile and changing the animations.cfg...

Who has Raven's ear?

ialexeev
08-26-2002, 04:56 PM
Guys, i was just wondering if its possible to rip animations out of new SW Galaxies game!?
They have a whole bunch of new anims there for both double :dsaber: and single :saberg: bladed lightsabers.

:duel: :lsduel:

KMan
08-26-2002, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by ialexeev
Guys, i was just wondering if its possible to rip animations out of new SW Galaxies game!?
They have a whole bunch of new anims there for both double :dsaber: and single :saberg: bladed lightsabers.


I highly doubt it. For one, a different company is making that game. Also it has not been released yet. In addition, they would never release any source material for a MMORPG for many security issues. And lastly they are using a completely different rendering engine and probably their own animation setup as well.

Xenoeye
08-26-2002, 09:00 PM
Im totally lost now:confused:

It wasn't long ago people were saying that animations couldn't be done without some input from Raven into the community.

Forget the motion capture crap cause its just not feasible for an amature project. (by amature I mean the project is just for fun, Im not commenting on the work you guys produce because some of the guys posting here have made some great stuff for JK2)

What is it that you think can and cant be done?
Will you be able to edit the humanoid animations?
Will you be able to make totally new ones?

It doesn't seem like Im the only who needs this clarification either so some answers would be appreticated.

Emon
08-26-2002, 09:58 PM
Well, NickR has been going around the coding forum bragging about how he got the source animation data from Raven.

It would greatly benefit the community and prolong the life of the game if he released it, but I think he'd rather go around and brag about how great he is.

agentj64
08-26-2002, 10:24 PM
Uhm
I'd like to boast that I DID get animations in game and working fine:)...

Screw Raven's input, I think I'll find more help from a tree stump.

"So why multiple IK FK solutions? I mean can't we just use damn goals?"

(wind noise)

"Not the talkative type ayhe?"

(birp poop falls on my head)

Yes people..yes obviously we have learned something!

sigh

:0

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74016

Dark Cloak
09-05-2002, 02:42 AM
*ka-BLINKS* Did you now? Wait...did I miss something? How did you get the animations working, and did you manage to get them in-game, Agentj64?

-wT-
09-07-2002, 12:28 PM
If anyone's interested, the Maya version of the XSI exporter is now available as a public beta, from softimage.com

Too bad you need to compile it yourself before you can use it... but atleast now there's a plugin for a software that has better animation tools and lower price than Max ;)