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View Full Version : Where the hell did the ProMod suggestion thread go?


ArtifeX
08-21-2002, 04:57 PM
I was browsing through JahWarrior's thread earlier today, and it just suddenly didn't exist anymore. All the links into the thread started coming up as bad!

Dammit! I was still taking notes from there!

I've already bugged the staff about this, but they haven't reposted it yet. So, anyone who wanted to resummarize their suggestions for one of the future versions of ProMod had better do so here in case the thread is gone for good.

Garath
08-21-2002, 05:03 PM
that'll teach you to take notes faster! Didn't you learn anything in college?! take a tape recorder ;)


Let's see.. the only thing I remember was you were going to have your arch-nemesis Garath beta test for you....

Actually.. nothing but respect from here.. if my mind wasn't so muddled I'd be participating in the recent suggestion threads .. but 12 hour work days are gettin to me :/

crazyplaya73
08-21-2002, 05:14 PM
LOL I think I was the last person to post in it. It was a good thread so its too bad. I can tell you what I remember.

We were debating the virtue of increasing blocking power while backpeddling. Some didn't like the idea others did. I don't like the idea. I think the best blocking should occur standing still or walking. If you are trying to evade the saber and it hits you you should not be rewarded with extra blocking ability. Now if your aim is good sure you should be able to block some or all of the hit but you should not get a blcoking advantage when you try to evade a hit.

I was also talking about roll - I would love to see roll changed so that it is still very good for quick moves or evading but it doesn't take you so far away from where you started the roll. It should be common sence - you can not roll around on the ground faster then you can run.

ArtifeX
08-21-2002, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Garath
Let's see.. the only thing I remember was you were going to have your arch-nemesis Garath beta test for you....

Well, I'm hoping to finish up this weekend, so I'll probably be dropping into the official ProMod server to forcably draft people into beta testing service like I did Lazarous one time. :)

So, if you wanna beta test, better be playin this weekend!

I'll definitely give all the forum hounds first crack at it, though.

Olisple
08-21-2002, 05:26 PM
I'd love to beta test Artifex......You know how much I love the promod...

I'm Olistotheple......;)

zerowingzero
08-21-2002, 06:32 PM
Too bad you won't see me on the forums, i always have "don't show status" checked, oh well i'll have to change it.

Anyway we could just post suggestions here.

like when a defence break happins (when the other persons saber is thrown back) why not make the backpedal and other speed MUCH slower, as even with yellow stance, unless you hop right beside them and attack, there is little chance that you'll benifit from it.

Also, on a odd note, one of my DFA's got semi-blocked and the oppoent left before it was completed, however after i was done the DFA animation, i automaticly went into a defence break position, as if my saber was knocked away. Weird eh?

BTW: I'd swich your server back to duel, as CTF (or holicron) need al lot of people to play a good game and are less popular

ArtifeX
08-21-2002, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by crazyplaya73
LOL I think I was the last person to post in it. It was a good thread so its too bad. I can tell you what I remember.

We were debating the virtue of increasing blocking power while backpeddling. Some didn't like the idea others did. I don't like the idea. I think the best blocking should occur standing still or walking. If you are trying to evade the saber and it hits you you should not be rewarded with extra blocking ability. Now if your aim is good sure you should be able to block some or all of the hit but you should not get a blcoking advantage when you try to evade a hit.

I was also talking about roll - I would love to see roll changed so that it is still very good for quick moves or evading but it doesn't take you so far away from where you started the roll. It should be common sence - you can not roll around on the ground faster then you can run.

Ah, I remember now. My reaction to the backpedalling issue was this:

Walking/running backwards will give you a defense bonus in beta 2, but moving forwards will give you a equal offensive bonus. So, people concerned about everyone playing too defensively just to gain the defensive advantage can breathe a sigh of relief. Moving sideways will provide no bonus either way.

Ducking will provide a small defensive bonus, but also an equal offensive penalty. Rolling and jumping will both cause you to suffer a severe defensive penalty, though I'm considering a slight offensive bonus for jump during the downward half of the arc, possibly even velocity-dependent so that little jumps barely have any bonus, while big jumps give you a bigger bonus (though not too much--tops would be 5%).

Doctor Shaft
08-21-2002, 06:45 PM
That's an excellent compromise Artifex. Moving side ways should maintain normal defense levels, as it is side-stepping maneuver, and if used properly, it gives you an advantage in swinging position.

I have never experienced an "overrun" from an aggressive player when I backpeddle. Not once. But that's also because I didn't backpeddle from one side of the level to the next. The settings shoudln't be made so that every one stradegy is effective 90% of the time. Aggressive playing is certainly not the most effective thing to do. It's just the easiest, and therefore more commonly see, stradegy. I have been the poop at the aggressive people simply by backpeddling maybe three or four steps. Stopping to block the onslaught, side stepping, and then swinging. Works like a charm, unless the person outsmarts you. If we just boost defense for backpeddling, and give no reward to the offensive person, then backpeddling will become a premiere stradegy. It won't just be an option, it'll be THE option. You want to live, play aggressive and then fall back on backpeddle. Some other kind of gameplay has to counteract that stradegy. Giving foward motion this ability is the way to go. This will force players to use ALL the stradegies in union, rather than "i'm a backpeddle player" or "i'm an all out offensive player". Certainly you can still do it, but you can't rely on just that.


Can't wait to see the blocking animations and the mind trick thing though.

ArtifeX
08-21-2002, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Can't wait to see the blocking animations and the mind trick thing though.

Don't worry, they're coming. The blocking stuff is already done, mind trick/sight relationship is on the way.

Olisple
08-21-2002, 06:59 PM
Is it possible to change the % of the damage subject to certain parts of the body? Like I dunno about all you, but when you try and dodge, a heavy hit nicks your foot n does 60 damage, I get a lil annoyed. The head hits should do lots, body a lil less I guess, limbs least or something of that sort.....

I dunno how to do it or if ya can or anything. I'm just saying that it'd add to the realism of the saber fights.

Jah Warrior
08-21-2002, 07:54 PM
Sorry artifex, I was getting pissed off with 'some twat' ripping the piss out of the way we set our server up and the thread was going well off course so i deleted it before i posted something I'd regret.

The tosser insinuated that I was a n00b for wanting lower damage. The thread was supposed to be about promod, not my server settings.

Hope it didnt inconvenience you too much.

zerowingzero
08-21-2002, 08:02 PM
As for Mindtrick, i still feel it is pretty useless in a Duel enviroment.
First off, you have to be in another room to do it so they won't catch on. Second you HAVE to turn off your saber, the glow gives you away too much. When the oppoent realizes you are useing it (They hear your footsteps or heal the huge initating sound) all they have to do is turn on seeing and that is that.
Now with your mod , i'm wondering if seeing will have a distance relationship or a level one. As of now, the only real place to use it would be in Team dm matches or CTF

What i would like to see:

- muting of footsteps when useing it

- geting rid of the glow (probably not possible)

- Make the sound play only when the opponent is close, it's too much of a dead giveaway.

MrCrusher
08-21-2002, 09:39 PM
so i deleted it before i posted something I'd regret.

Ah HA! So undelete it...Quick! I was just heating up the backpeddle debate when the thread disappeared...

Some of my best persuasive writing was in that thread.

;)

The modifiers in ProMod's next release sound pretty cool.

Never been done before....

I hope the "powers that be"(Lucas Arts, Raven) are taking notes for their next release.

ArtifeX
08-22-2002, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
Sorry artifex, I was getting pissed off with 'some twat' ripping the piss out of the way we set our server up and the thread was going well off course so i deleted it before i posted something I'd regret.

The tosser insinuated that I was a n00b for wanting lower damage. The thread was supposed to be about promod, not my server settings.

Hope it didnt inconvenience you too much.

Fortunately, i did manage to read most of the posts by backing up in my browser history. I don't think I missed anyone's post, but i could be wrong.

Zero: Good suggestions on mind trick. i'll see what i can do.

FatalStrike
08-22-2002, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
Sorry artifex, I was getting pissed off with 'some twat' ripping the piss out of the way we set our server up

Yeah that was me. So sorry you can't debate an issue that you yourself brought up.

Originally posted by Jah Warrior
The tosser insinuated that I was a n00b for wanting lower damage. The thread was supposed to be about promod, not my server settings.



I didn't insinuate anything. I came right out and said that your setting were noob friendly.

Also I wasn't the only one that thought this. Don't take it personal man but I don't want the noobs highjacking ProMod like they did the official version.

Fatal Out

Jah Warrior
08-22-2002, 10:38 AM
LOL,

Strange how do you know I was referring to you?

Were you hoping for a reaction? or are you a self confessed twat or tosser? :rolleyes:

And another thing, have you tried these settings? Check the link in my sig for the server IP and I may just be able to show you what I mean. I guess you will slate it but at least then you can have a qualified opinion on the matter.

I confess that the way we set our server up is not to make the 'Best' players win all the time. It is set to allow for fun fights that anyone can enjoy, if you like being killed with 2-3 normal swings, cool, personally i expect alot more from a fight and find little satisfaction from winning or losing so quickly.

Ultimately its a game and as such is meant to be enjoyable and fun to PLAY. Realism is one thing but it can be taken too far.

Twins of Doom
08-22-2002, 11:12 AM
hey artifex, you gunna release a game manual with this that tells us everything? kind of like a souped up readme on a website?:p


who knows, i might be able to help you out with that website if you want some help:) after all...i'm getting close to done on my wc3 website (NO I WON't give the link out here with over 60, 000 people to read because its not public yet [but i will give a hint...its on www.ogresnet.com network...so experiment with subdomains:)])

artifex, if you talk to me on msn i could show you some links of what i've done so you can decide if you want some help:)
philandrew_t@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger/Email)
twinsofdoom@ogresnet.com (Email)
149920497 (ICQ)
philandrewT (AIM)


good mod, i like it:)

i had a suggestion for it...but i knd of forgot it:confused:
oh well...my daily comic in my email just arrived, i'll post again if i remember


http://jkhq.ath.cx

Twins of Doom
08-22-2002, 11:39 AM
i found and bumped the other thread:)

ArtifeX
08-22-2002, 12:37 PM
I think what Jah is saying that is he doesn't enjoy 10 minutes of waiting in line in a 16 player duel server to have a fight decided in 20 seconds with the higher saber damage. I can understand that. Many people don't like short fights.

I'd suggest that anyone wants longer duels in the Duel gametype just set the fraglimit to 2 rather than one so that you get a best 2 out of 3 setup like the old street fighter games. That's actually what I prefer, as it lessens the likelyhood of a better player getting dethroned because he goofed up once.

ArtifeX
08-22-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Twins of Doom
i found and bumped the other thread:)

You did? Where is it? I thought Jah deleted it?

Twins of Doom
08-22-2002, 12:42 PM
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=786000#post786000

that's it isn't it?

ArtifeX
08-22-2002, 01:16 PM
Nope, that's not the one, but thanks for the volumous b*u*m*p!

It was JahWarrior's "Promod - whats right and whats wrong" thread.

Halowse
08-22-2002, 02:05 PM
Hey guys.

I played on a ProMod server for many hours last night and would like to register some opinions.

First, the idea of skill based factors over random calls is a REALLY good one, and I really hope that it works out... but as of right now, the new math does not offer any bottomline gameplay advantage over 1.04... it seems to be a matter of trading one set of weaknesses for another. Things I noticed:

- at LEAST 20 different times, I was very healthy, caught another player with the most deadly part of my swing, with the deadly middle of my blade, right through their chest, while their arms were back over their head preparing to strike, only to be rewarded with my own death. Adding and subtracting modifiers to peoples attacks is a neat idea, but if I cut the man in half first... I should win. Always.

- many times I would get behind an unsuspecting combatant, and strike them repeatedly, right in the back, with an overhead forward medium... and they did not block... but also would not die. Receiveing a string of strikes to unguarded parts of your body should result in significant damage and death.

- many times I would "get inside" anothers' saber throw, and strike them HARD while their saber was out flying around, when they were more or less defenseless... but I would not get the kill. People who have no defense should fall in one strike... everytime. (except perhaps if they were heavily shielded)

- the combat system seems to favor forward strikes over lateral attacks. Side stepping and running a man down laterally (like a defense back contains a reciever) is an important tactic and seems to suffer a penalty in promod... many solidly landed lateral strikes counted for nothing when containing sideways, while weakly timed forward counters would kill.

- the CSC penalizes surprise attacks. Part of playing in character means ambushing an opponent from time to time. An ambush tactic of mine is to wait around a corner, and ANTICIPATE when the opponent is going to round the corner, to clothesline him with a heavy strike to the neck. Doing this in ProMod, your blade gets knocked away, even though the opponent is completely surprised and caught swinging, off guard or flatfooted. Whatever your tactics, sometimes you need to initate a swing to anticpate movement, and ProMod appears to penalize this.

- spinning strikes and hits to the side and back, especially reversals, do not count for much in ProMod. Again, wide open hits to an opponent are going unregistered. Not everyone wants to fight front to back.

- velocity based jumping attack bonus is a good idea. Last night I jumped off a ramp, caught my oponent with with a perfectly timed red strike, whle his saber was swung into the ground only to be "blocked" and killed with a pretty lame counter swing. I should have cleaved him in half like a cartoon, but again was only rewarded with defeat.

These are my observations from my first session, take them constructively.

*********

May I suggest...

- that blocking be HIGHLY dependant on CSC accuracy... therefore an HIGHLY intentional act.

- that strikes count when they hit unguarded flesh, regardless of the CSC position when they were initiated.

- that damage and defense breaking be dramatically scaled depending on what part of the swing makes contact. Making the heart of the swing the most deadly is the best way to assure people are attempting to time their strikes.

Twins of Doom
08-22-2002, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by zerowingzero
As for Mindtrick, i still feel it is pretty useless in a Duel enviroment.
First off, you have to be in another room to do it so they won't catch on. Second you HAVE to turn off your saber, the glow gives you away too much. When the oppoent realizes you are useing it (They hear your footsteps or heal the huge initating sound) all they have to do is turn on seeing and that is that.
Now with your mod , i'm wondering if seeing will have a distance relationship or a level one. As of now, the only real place to use it would be in Team dm matches or CTF

What i would like to see:

- muting of footsteps when useing it

- geting rid of the glow (probably not possible)

- Make the sound play only when the opponent is close, it's too much of a dead giveaway.

yes, it's useless in all ways....but i went on the server once EVERYBODY was using mind trick...but they NEVER benefitted from using it, it was so stupid
i asked one guy why he was constantly using mind trick even when nobody ever even did 1 damage because of it......he said "because"

Twins of Doom
08-22-2002, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by ArtifeX
Nope, that's not the one, but thanks for the volumous b*u*m*p!

It was JahWarrior's "Promod - whats right and whats wrong" thread.

oh, lol

and do you want help with the promod site...because no offense....but it needs work (that's the nice way of saying it sucks...lol)

well, my wc 3 site is going public now so i'll give you links to what i've done
http://jkhq.ath.cx
http://wc3.ogresnet.com
http://jkhq.ath.cx/netscape/index.php

just trying to help;)

MrCrusher
08-22-2002, 03:15 PM
Some more ideas.

If you come to find the reduced backpeddle speed to be a issue after testing, another solution may be allow backpeddling at normal speed for ten paces then reduce it to less than normal (50%?) for a short duration or distance.
@@@@
Force Seeing at level three is the most under used power. Maybe add another special ability. Example: if CSC is in high aim value on an opponent that is unloading secondary splash damage missiles, and, the opponent is close by - say within 20 paces - then Seeing Lvl3 would auto repel(force push) the missiles. Similar to dodge sniper fire but repels close range only and very dependent on CSC aim. Of course the force push would eventually use up force power as well.
@@@@
The issue of duel length was never a problem in Heretic2 due to the game play structure. I tried to light the torch with FFA_CloudShark in hopes that the community would get the idea and run with it. The multi arena dueling map hasn't caught hold yet, but with three arenas (or more) the frequency of dueling 1on1 is non-stop. Non-stop dueling was what made H2 such a hit. Raven, unfortunately, didn't get it quite right with JK2. H2 played much like ProMod where you could one hit kill (head shot) an opponent in a matter of seconds or gracefully duel for position for a very long time.

The greatest problem with the multi arena format is the occasional lammer. If properly coded however this play style would be very popular. One way to solve this would be to provide multiple challenge duels per server. Not until you challenge another player could you draw weapon. A more sophisticated version of this would be allowing players to duel 1on2, 2on2, 5on7 3on3on3..... of course multiple teams would have to use team-skins rather than team-colors. The team duel could initiate through a team leader choosing a team then challenging one or multiple teams, or, the players could target a player and press the "j" key to join their team or create a team. Saber locking could be enabled as well requiring team mates to defend team mates or help break the locks with a kick etc. Maybe even three way saber locks.

Another way to enable multiple duels per server would be to remove a pair of challengers from the sight and touch of other players and duelers. This way you could use duel maps to serve many duels simultaneously - Multi demensional dueling. You would make a challenge and then enter your own demension(on the same map) with your opponent.

Anyway just some more fun ideas to chew on.

MrCrusher
08-22-2002, 05:16 PM
Other Ideas,

Button-mashing could be made a risk by a continuous attack modifier. The more frantic the swinging the weaker the attacks become. Strength conserving, deliberate intentional attack would be encouraged over button mashing in hopes of getting lucky. Although this would also widen the gap between new and veteran players. The modifier could be based on potential damage output of a string of attacks. Once the potential damage limit is reached in a given time then subsequent attacks diminish in damage output. The modifier could reset after a few seconds of inactivity (non attack state). Example: 200 damage per 5 seconds before damage modifier kicks in.

You could even use this type of modifier to knock down defenses as well. Example: opponents using like stances could try to apply a certain amount of damage against a defender in a given time to break defenses.............


Increase the POV beyond 110. This heightens the senses allowing players to see better. It makes melee combat far more dynamic.

hope this is logically legible (makes sense)

Twins of Doom
08-22-2002, 08:19 PM
well, i saw the post about force sight...and it gave me an idea


with force sight on you can see through walls and stuff...but you can't aim better?

i think that force sight should increase your chances of getting a better aim and stuff:)

ArtifeX
08-23-2002, 07:53 AM
Hmm, I don't know about giving force sight any more power than it's going to have already. With the new Mind Trick, it won't be able to see a tricker at any range anymore, but even level 1 will have some ability to dodge sniper fire (you'll have to be looking directly at the sniper). Allowing someone to auto-push missles would be way too powerful, especially in ctf. As far as giving you an aim bonus, I have other plans for that.

Twins of Doom
08-23-2002, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by ArtifeX
Hmm, I don't know about giving force sight any more power than it's going to have already. With the new Mind Trick, it won't be able to see a tricker at any range anymore, but even level 1 will have some ability to dodge sniper fire (you'll have to be looking directly at the sniper). Allowing someone to auto-push missles would be way too powerful, especially in ctf. As far as giving you an aim bonus, I have other plans for that.

lol, ok then.......just an idea;)