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Meksilon
08-24-2002, 05:31 AM
I wish I didn't have to create this thread, but the other one was closed. This is a continuation from http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75755 and I'm talking primaraly to Redwing.

***First, I don't remember seeing that verse...can I have a reference? Secondly if someone said the same about "heterosexual offenders" how would you interpret it then?It wasn't a quote, but 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

NIV (New International Version:

9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

NAS (New American Standard):

9. Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10. nor thieves, nor [the] covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11. And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.

YLT (Young's Literal Translation):

9. have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites, 10. nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, the reign of God shall inherit. 11. And certain of you were these! but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were declared righteous, in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.

I'm including Young's because Benny tells me it's the best translation of the Bible and he's going to go to Bible College and is quite knowledgable in the area. It is also a harder version to read and that is why some people don't like it. There's a handy-dandy page to fetch verses from here http://www.biblelookup.com/lookup.html

Romans 1:18-32 (NIV)

18. The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19. since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-- his eternal power and divine nature-- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23. and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-- who is forever praised. Amen. 26. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30. slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31. they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

1 Timothy 1:9-11

(Young's)

9. having known this, that for a righteous man law is not set, but for lawless and insubordinate persons, ungodly and sinners, impious and profane, parricides and matricides, men-slayers, 10. whoremongers, sodomites, men-stealers, liars, perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that to sound doctrine is adverse, 11. according to the good news of the glory of the blessed God, with which I was entrusted.

(NIV)

9. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10. for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers-- and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11. that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

(NAS)

9. realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10. and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11. according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.


Anyhow, that's just 3 passages in the New Testiment. And your question on homosexual offenders... well since Young's calls them Sodomites it's clear it means homosexuals. If it said "hedrosexual offenders" I'd be quite supprised but I would interperate that to mean the same as those who have ungodly hedrosexual relationships.Firstly, despite your fervor...I think you're wrong. Besides that, if Men and Women's roles are so ironclad, what about people who are both? They exist - people with both sets of sexual organs and both sets of hormones. What about them? God made them. Would he have put them into a world where he does not provide for their existence? Where do they fit into such a stringent view of nature?They do not fit in to normal relationships. They cannot. Jesus does say that some have been born uncapable of Marriage, I think you quoted that didn't you?But like I just said, his words don't forbid homosexuality. The translators of the King James Version forbade homosexuality. I hope you agree that male prostituion is different than a male-male commited relationship...Single sex prostitution is no diffrent from hedro prostitution. Prostitution is diffrent from homosexuality but there are similarities. But to answer your question, yes they are diffrent.Paul said it wasn't good to be 'unequally yoked'. He also said it plain wasn't good to get married. along with alot of other stuff he said as advice, not a replacement for the Old Testament law that Jesus threw out. The law was made for man...not man for the law. (And what do you mean by second-hand information?)He didn't say it wasn't good to get Married but he did say that it is good to remain single, it good not to get married and if you do get married you may be faced with many problems. And he's right to say these things, even if he did kind of fear marriage. "Second Hand Information" just means God didn't speak directly (God also being Jesus). In otherwords God himself dosen't anywhere say explicitly not to marry people who don't beleive in Him, it is implied.I believe gay people should be allowed to get married. Currently they are only allowed to be unofficially married, which is unfair to them (although equally valid.)They could not get married anywhere in The Bible, nor was it ever questioned in The Bible.I should also point out that you cannot stop being gay...you can become celibate, which many Christian gay people do because they are convinced it is wrong.I sincerly do not beleive that you are born gay. I would be very supprised if there was a gene that determines it, and my views would change slightly if there was a gene. But it wouldn't convince me that it's right. ADD could be genetic and that dosen't make it right to carry on like a nut.

I will also point out that some ex-homosexuals who have overcome their unnatural lust have said to Christian leaders that it is a choice.

So a person can choose if they want to be hedrosexual, homosexual or celibate (we are agreeing that relationships with multipul partners is wrong, yes the Bible does have some men with lots of wives but not with wives and husbands). This shows by definition bisexuality is wrong.Most researchers believe that one's orientation is fixed and unchangeable. Prayer, counselling, psychotherapy, electric shocks, castration, frontal lobotomies, etc have all been used to try to change a person's orientation. None have succeeded.That is just not true. It it diffuiclt to overcome homosexuality, just as it is to overcome prostitution. But it does happen.

I don't beleive in sexual orentation at all. It's the media which has taught us to think "sexy" or lustful thoughts. To look at bodies with that in mind. I can admire a man's good looks without feeling sexually attracted, and I can admire a woman's good looks without feeling sexually attracted. Therefore there isn't much to argue about your claims on sexual orientation.

I have a girlfriend because I lover her deeply and she loves me. Not because she is sexy. That is not a factor at all. Your statistics are only logical - identical twins identify with each other, AND have been raised together that's why it's quite high. Non identicle twins have the same factor. and 10% for other siblings seems to indicate that they don't identify as well with them.

I might also mention that sexually transmitted diseases are more easily spread through anal sex, the anus is not designed for sex and causes all sorts of problems. I remember hearing that you should never mix anal sex and virginal sex.

=mek=

King Andrei
08-24-2002, 06:26 AM
Meksilon, give it a rest already, man! Don't create another topic to reply to a closed one.