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View Full Version : Is JK2 dead/dying? (merged)


D.L.
08-27-2002, 07:22 AM
In the last week, there have been little to no new mods/skins/models/maps etc for JK2. The skins that are released are rehashes of that Tyrion model or whatever. Online gameplay is getting boring with people spamming moves, complaining if they die and all in all, ruining the game because they think winning is everything.

Single Player is dead, more or less, once you finish the game. There are only so many times you can play the levels over and over. There have been a few nice SP fan-levels, but nothing to write home about. There have been no noteworthy SP mods, due to the whole lack of code that Raven has provided to the fan base. A new saber or player model is about as good as it gets and there's only so many you can use, before it gets tired and old.

Do you think the game is dead? Do you think it's dying? If so what do you think can be done to save it? It's a great game but nowadays, a game is only as good as it's expansions. Look at Half Life. It going strong 4 years later for only one reason. Counter Strike. When will JK2 get it's Counter Strike?

KnightHawk420
08-27-2002, 07:26 AM
It has, it's called Promod. :)

come play it at

Praxeum Knights Saber Only FFA - Promod
IP: 206.169.69.25:28070

Praxeum Knights CTF - Promod
IP: 206.169.69.25:28080

http://www.lowgrav.org

If default 1.04 combat seems too dull for you, give promod a try. I've found the new saber combat system provides a much more skilled form of the game. Or rather a system that requires more skill anyway.

Captain Hagen
08-27-2002, 09:10 AM
I agree with D.L.

I've been playing through the in-game server.

And the last week, I have noticed that not many people are out there, compared to a of month ago....


Amazing, despite the Star Wars phenomenon, CS still rules?

D.L.
08-27-2002, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by KnightHawk420
It has, it's called Promod. :)

come play it at

Praxeum Knights Saber Only FFA - Promod
IP: 206.169.69.25:28070

Praxeum Knights CTF - Promod
IP: 206.169.69.25:28080

http://www.lowgrav.org

If default 1.04 combat seems too dull for you, give promod a try. I've found the new saber combat system provides a much more skilled form of the game. Or rather a system that requires more skill anyway.

I've downloaded it a while ago but I never got around to trying it. I'll give it a go tonight. I think JK2 could really proft from an Imperials Vs Rebels/Jedi Vs Sith(yes I know this is technically possible with the existing setup) mod

Captain Hagen
08-27-2002, 09:29 AM
What we need right now is a sequel, to keep the game alive

More SP and some more maps maybe???


Duel has old maps from JK1, thats cheat!

Tyrion
08-27-2002, 11:10 AM
Did someone say Tyrion?:D

Anyway...I lost interest in the game when 1.03 came out,didnt even bother installing 1.04...

Tyrion
08-27-2002, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by D.L.
In the last week, there have been little to no new mods/skins/models/maps etc for JK2. The skins that are released are rehashes of that Tyrion model or whatever. Online gameplay is getting boring with people spamming moves, complaining if they die and all in all, ruining the game because they think winning is everything.

Single Player is dead, more or less, once you finish the game. There are only so many times you can play the levels over and over. There have been a few nice SP fan-levels, but nothing to write home about. There have been no noteworthy SP mods, due to the whole lack of code that Raven has provided to the fan base. A new saber or player model is about as good as it gets and there's only so many you can use, before it gets tired and old.

Do you think the game is dead? Do you think it's dying? If so what do you think can be done to save it? It's a great game but nowadays, a game is only as good as it's expansions. Look at Half Life. It going strong 4 years later for only one reason. Counter Strike. When will JK2 get it's Counter Strike?

It's not Counter Strike. It's the pure,unerfed(that's what killed JKII for me,all that nerfing) game base and that there are so many different mods. Models do almost nothing in play factor,and how many mods have you seen with JKII that turn the game into a different FPS? With half-life they have half-life,opposing force, TFC 1.5, Day of Defeat, and a heapload of others that are all like different FPS.

Kstar__2
08-27-2002, 11:16 AM
lets just think:

its back to school time, so many players/programmers don't have time to play/make lvls/models/skins

D.L.
08-27-2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by kstar__2
lets just think:

its back to school time, so many players/programmers don't have time to play/make lvls/models/skins

So every JK2 player is at school? Wow! I didn't think the average age was that low. Next time you post, have a point. Thanks.

It's a general thing and it's been ongoing since 1.03 was released.

For the record, the only patch I don't like is 1.04 but since I have JediMod I use that instead.

Rad Blackrose
08-27-2002, 11:51 AM
Actually, it is a viable reason. Dest, programmer of JediMod, is going back to school and won't be able to update the mod that often for example.

FatalStrike
08-27-2002, 11:56 AM
Both people have made good points.

After the patches completely changed the game, many players left. Add to that the beginning of schools (which by the way include college) and you have a community og much smaller size then before.

BF_Hoby
08-27-2002, 01:06 PM
More strats = more fun.

When they started nurf'n strats and making us have less strats it became less fun.

The community is definetly getting smaller.

I have seen 2 really good clans leave, one undefeated. I have also seen many many good clans that had divisions just for JK2 not really play because of lack of interest.

Raven messed up. They should have add more counter moves instead of nurf'n. Had they done that then they would have not driven so many people away.

Again... add strats.. dont nurf them.

zerowingzero
08-27-2002, 01:07 PM
What skin are you looking for exactly? Most everything has been done and most skins are like "Kyle v2.56543".
And a significant number of players are in school, highschool and collage so there is a valad point. The community will die if there is a thread like this every week. Geez

JerAir
08-27-2002, 02:08 PM
Wait until summer starts again(long wait) and by then there will be a sequel or awesome update or expansion pack or something.
then it will be fun again!

Floydian
08-27-2002, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by JerAir
Wait until summer starts again(long wait) and by then there will be a sequel or awesome update or expansion pack or something.
then it will be fun again!

Well, I'll still be here until then. I've been playing this game since day one, mostly because I am married and have no money to buy a new game, and because the few games that I do want to buy don't come out until later this year (Sudden Strike 2 and 1503 AD in case you care).

I for one still find the multiplayer experience (mod-less) very fun. Granted, I've got a 56K modem connection, so I'm just happy if I can finish a battle without lag ;)

SeraphimII
08-27-2002, 04:50 PM
And TRIBES 2 IS COMING OUT WITH THE BESTEST PATCH EVAR TO FIX EVERYTHING THEY MESSED WITH!!!



Heh.

Anyway...um...yea. I just haven't been very into JediKnight2 lately, and with school starting that should mess up my gaming time (As most of my time will be in 4 catagories /School/Work/Sleep/Gaming/ unfurtunatly they are from greatest to least).

Hopefully I can get some free time but that is very doubtful since I'm planning/studying to become a certified network admin by the end of the year :(

jedi qin-jon
08-27-2002, 05:42 PM
i dont think the games is dying its only been out a little times the same thing happened to counter strike it had no one at irst later like 1 or Half a year the game got alot of people playing it i think the smae thing will happen to this game to. what im trying to say is it needs time for more people to join and or bye the game and play it on the internet like this:lsduel: :duel: also it needs some poeple like:newbie: s to join and get it popualler and so they can get :explode: :angel: :swear:

razorace
08-28-2002, 08:07 PM
All games normally have a lull where all the Modders too busy making their Mods to get involved with the game....

Kurgan
08-28-2002, 09:33 PM
Well, if the average "lifespan" of a video game is four months, then yes, JK2 is on its last legs.

However, if you consider JK2 to be an "above average" or "excellent" game (judging by the hype it generated and the almost universally great reviews and high sales, I'd say that's a "yes") then it should be here a lot longer.

You might think there aren't a lot of mods now, but just give it time, more and better mods will come out, I'm sure of it.

Remember when Episode I (the movie) came out? There were a TON of new mods released/started for JK1 at the time, even though by all counts the community was getting stale by that time. So there was a huge resurgence of interest in the game (perhaps some of it had to do with the somewhat low quality of the Episode I based games that were coming out at the time, and the fact that JK1 was about the best Star Wars multiplayer game at the time). JK2 was helped by the release of Episode II, note all the AOTC mods out/coming out? The same will happen for Episode 3 if people keep at it. Many people will even pick up the game, just because they got interested in Star Wars and want to play as a Jedi Knight after seeing the flicks.

As long as people play the game, it's not dead, and as long as there is a community, it's alive. ; )

I remember people were saying that JK2 was "dead" as soon as they beat SP, or as soon as the 1.03 patch came out. People always over-react. Just because a couple of clans break up, or a few mods get cancelled, doesn't mean a thing. Just keep playing/modding, if you enjoy it.

razorace
08-28-2002, 11:43 PM
Good point, Kurgan.

Beefotron X
08-29-2002, 12:36 AM
One thing that I think would help all online multiplayer games is an official statement from the game producers that plainly says that a cheap tactic is not necessarily caused by an imbalance in game mechanics, and so altering the game mechanics will not necessarily improve the game, even though it might cripple the cheapness.

Bird Of Prey!
08-29-2002, 02:02 AM
If the game were truly dying, I really can't believe the number of users still posting on a daily basis. If what the naysayers say were true this site would be dead.

So there's obviously still interest in this game. However, if something is not done soon, the game will probably fade away.

There are many things that have threatened JKII Outcast but the primary one is the negativity. If you don't believe me, read the majority of posts on the first page of this forum. I have never seen so much descension and unhappiness. This place used to be a community, it has become a bitching forum.

In my opinion, there is one main reason for the negativity and that is division. Remember the famous saying "Divide and Conquer?"

Many things have divided the JKII community but I think the following are primaily responsible:

1) The gamers who who refuse to install the latest upgrade because it nerfs the moves. They are no longer able to join the servers of those who did upgrade. Those who upgraded can no longer find those who haven't.

2) The gamers who use mods. Mods increase division for many reasons.

First of all, look at the number of different, varied, mods available for this game. Being human, we all have different tastes, and prefer the different mods, for one reason or another. When we find a mod we like we play that one exclusively. Why bother with the other mods that don't have what we want?

Secondly, there's the download time. Mods are nice but, unless you download the zipfile, they take a while to download on a mediocre connection. Myself, I am lucky enough to have a highspeed cable connection but many players are not as lucky. I cannot count the users who have connected to my server and then disconnected because they had to D/L the mod I was using.

Finally, there are those who know the secrets of a certain mod but refuse to share them. These idiots use their knowledge of the mod to their own advantage and refuse to share it. The user, who is new to this mod, gets discouraged, disheartened, and finally quits. The bad taste left, in the new players mouth, makes them not want to play a game with this mod in the future.

3) The number of 3rd party skins, models. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoy the aftermarket skins and maps. Whenever the game starts to bore me, I always am able to find a new skin, model, or map, to rejuvinate my interest. The downside is that these additions, like the mod files, take time to D/L. Those with a slower connection want to play and not Not D/L.

I'm certain that there are many other issues, dividing the JKII community, but I feel that the preceding list lists many of the primary reasons.

Division and negativity will do nothing but send this game to the bargain bin at your local software store. Instead of bitching at each other we need to band together and take action.

My first idea is to stop waiting for Raven to release an expansion pack and work on an all-inclusive zip file and/or CDROM. By all-inclusive, I mean one that would include all the latest mods, skins, maps, and models. This would give everyone the latest files without having to D/L.

After that, let's bitch at the game developers instead of eachother. The squeaky wheel gets the grease!

This game does have the longevity of Quake 2 or Halflife unless we let it die.

Just my 2 cents!

Bird Of Prey!
08-29-2002, 02:06 AM
http://66.250.145.38/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76725

nuff said!

Old_Ben
08-29-2002, 02:11 AM
Yes there's still people lurking around here, but you should have seen how many were here before and right after the game came out. I think alot of the people got tired of waiting for a new patch after 1.03 and left the forum. I think what the game needs is a grreat total conversion. Unfortunetly that may not happen for a while so we may lose even more people by then. I hope people still stay here because there are still alot of people playing on public server, and they can come here to talk about the game.

RpTheHotrod
08-29-2002, 02:47 AM
There are less and less servers now :/

Tyrion
08-29-2002, 02:56 AM
It's dying because the patches have gone horrible...I loved playign 1.02...but at 1.03 I quit..it was horrible. The butts...they were so..*wimpers* powerful.They'd come up to me,turn around and shows thier butts to kill me. So,I was disheartend and quit. Then, i just couldnt play.The saber did so little damage in 1.04 that guns were the most powerful things there...thus I quited and left it to die...

Plus that and how Raven wont release the code so we cant play anything that's new(Ala Half life with DoD and TFC).

thehomicidalegg
08-29-2002, 04:43 AM
note dying not dead

razorace
08-29-2002, 05:00 AM
Always ignore talk of a hobby or game "dying". It's always BS....

Anyway, I agree. I think JediMod, at the moment, is that unifing Mod as least until someone comes up with something better. :)

D.L.
08-29-2002, 07:26 AM
I never said the game was dying. It was a general question. There is no doubting the number of fan made items has dropped considerably in the last few weeks. I know there are some TC's being made (AOTCTC and the Dark Forces one.) but apart from 2 well played mods, there's not been much expansion.

The Instaglib mod has been criminally over looked, and Hydroball. What ever happened to that? A total of one maps have been released.

I'll love to see a CS type mod, but I have neither the patience or the C++ knowledge to perfect it. I could do some basic editing but nothing on a grand scale.

I still play the game daily, and I'm working on maps to the best of my current ability.

CenturiOn
08-29-2002, 07:41 AM
Ill never get bored coz i keep grippin' poeple and throwing them down a pit saying "WELCOME ABROAD DARKSIDE AIRLINES,I HOPE YOU ENJOY YOUR FLIGHT!!!"

hahahahahahahahahahah

D.L.
08-29-2002, 08:39 AM
Been a few new things today. The only things of merit would be the Ki Adi Mundi model and the LotR staff.

FatalStrike
08-29-2002, 11:01 AM
The game is fading away and people ask why?

Why not compare what you paid for to what you have now.

Overall changes and force changes-
-Backing up was slowed down
-Heal and drain were made useless
-Push and Pull weaker

Saber changes-
-Heavy stance walks slowly
-medium stance is slower
-DFA is less useful
-Blocking is greatly increased but without action from players
-sabers damage is reduced

Weapons-
-require much more ammo for secondary shooting

What does this mean? Well you can see it as fixes or you can see it as it truely is, less. Every time raven toned somthing done they alienated players who liked using what they removed. They kept taking more and more out, and more and more players were alienated.

The game got slower, Footspeed went down and damage went down, so the game was left with a slower feel then the original. Many players liked the speed, thus many players left.

The game became more difficult to get into. Since defense was so high, and sabers so weak, new players do not have the same high energy experience that new players had with the original.

Weapon guys lost the ability to use the cooler aspects of there guns. They have to spend more time searching for ammo and less time shooting. many moved on to other shooters.
*****************

Now before you go and flame me and say that the game got better and I hate it because I love 1.02 I must ask you to stop and think. Did EVERYONE like the changes or do YOU like the changes?

Now your thinking, well EVERYONE will never like the same things, and you are right.

But by subtracting from the game they made the game LESS then what people purchased and thus they have gone. Had they added those players would still have their little vices and YOU would have a counter or something else to make you happy.

The idea of removing to improve will ALWAYS shrink a community. Since Raven has given no sign of improving the game many people simply assume that the moves they like will be nerfed next and why waste my time. So they leave.

Now you can think what you want, but you KNOW this is true. you know that the community splintered when 1.03 came out and then splintered again when 1.04 was released. Had raven fixed bugs instead of rewriting the rule book we would not have this problem.

Thanks for reading, if you disagree you haven't been watching the effects of patches as closely as I have.

FatalStrike
08-29-2002, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by razorace
Always ignore talk of a hobby or game "dying". It's always BS....



BS? Are you blind? have you not noticed that there are less servers every week?

This is FACT. So saying its not true is like closing your eyes on a train track and thinking "I can't see the train, so it must not be there"

The Lopper
08-29-2002, 11:33 AM
Basically, the game is dying for two reasons:

1) the 1.04 patch is plainly awful. It destroyed the competative balance of the saber in FFAs with guns, and made all-saber FFAs into red lunge/lightning/grip spam fests. Borrrrrinnnng. At least backstab spamfests were fun.

2) About the same time the new patch came out, Raven had Server One problems that STILL HAVE NOT BEEN RESOLVED!!!! For about two weeks you couldn't get a decent list of available servers on the in-game list, and TO THIS DAY there are still servers out there that don't show up on the in-game list. For instance McP's Gamegrid, which was an outstanding CTF server with big games and lots of good players is still online and can be seen and joined with The All-Seeing Eye, but doesn't show up on the in-game list so nobody plays it anymore.

There are many other servers in the same boat. Why doesn't somebody at Raven e-mail the admins of these servers and tell them what they have to do to get their servers to show up in the in-game list?

The result is a serious shortage of good servers. There aren't any FFA servers that can compare with the late, great Bantha Poodu and Always Online is the only large CTF server out there - and it uses funky settings (including 1.03 backstabs, heh, heh) and some lame maps (spaceport and degobah).

Jkii is dying because 1.04 and the server shortage have made it less fun to play than it was a few months ago.

Your Friend,

The Lopper

Darth_Linux
08-29-2002, 02:59 PM
The Dark Forces MOD demo is due out in a little more than a month . . . don't give up on JK2 yet . . .

FatalStrike
08-29-2002, 03:11 PM
I got to test ProMod Beta 2 last night and I must say it will bring some energy back to CTF by making weapon user much more vulneable to sabers. And by making saber fights much more fun.

Just wait until the end of next week and you can play it for yourself.

JKII will be reborn from the ashes of v1.04 Sabers shall be feared once more!....ok I have to go find something to do

zerowingzero
08-29-2002, 03:14 PM
Lol and thanks to out bug findings, Atrifex has losts more work to do, on his promod site he said it could be ready as early as this friday night.

FatalStrike
08-29-2002, 03:21 PM
Not too much work to do. Besides as it is now its MILES ahead of v1.04.

That man is a damn genius. Raven needs to fire the guy who made the patches and hire Artifex.

zerowingzero
08-29-2002, 03:41 PM
He said he had lots before he shut down his server, either way people are gonna drool when they see the new console system as well as the CSC defence/offence system. *thinks about it*

razorace
08-29-2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by FatalStrike


BS? Are you blind? have you not noticed that there are less servers every week?
So? As long as there's a hardcore fanbase the game won't "die" until JK3 comes out.

Had raven fixed bugs instead of rewriting the rule book we would not have this problem.

Why are you complaining about Raven's changes, ProMod changes more than Raven ever did and you're a big fan of ProMod? If you don't like the 1.04 patch changes, ether go play ProMod (or one of the other zillion Mods out there) or just play 1.02. Raven can't make you play 1.04....

NeJJa
08-29-2002, 05:37 PM
well, first off the thing that generally sustains the life of an online shooter after the first few "ooh ahh" months is the competetion. my definition of a game being "alive" are online clans/leagues/ladders, and since JK2 is really competitively inferior (which saddens me more than anything) do to a number of things, the game just doesnt have that big of a following. so disappointing too, JK1 was like a very competitive scene, and now this crap. well, my 2 cents.

PS, the first sign a game really IS dying, is a "hey this game isnt dying!" series of posts ;)

razorace
08-29-2002, 07:24 PM
nah, the first sign is when the main forum for the game is quiet.

Shades
08-29-2002, 08:20 PM
All these posts about JK2 dying are foolish statements, that are more like propaganda to destroy JK2. All they are likely to do is decrease peoples morale. I play in the Deus Ex Multiplayer Community that was never even all that big to start with, but it is a lot worse now. It is so small that it is near collapse. There are only about 12 stable clans left, and 30 veterans playing on a regular basis. There are few servers, with a ping of 300 being acceptable to most players. Because Deus Ex was not released with a Multiplayer patch until the game of the year edition came out it never had a fan base on this scale. You are most certainly mistaken if you think JK2 is anywhere near collapse. DX never even had this many people to start with so I suggest you rethink your ideas. The community is what you make it, and you have a lot more advantages than many communties. DX certainly still has an excellent community spirit, and we only have one coder left too.:mad:

KnightHawk420
08-29-2002, 09:12 PM
I agree nearly as of current I"m counting 882 JK2 servers worldwide. Comparetively Star Trek Elite Force only has some 100 - 150 servers if even that anymore, and still many clans and players playing...


Far from dead... far from dead....

Psionic Jedi
08-29-2002, 09:46 PM
PS, the first sign a game really IS dying, is a "hey this game isnt dying!" series of posts -NeJJa

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

NickR
08-29-2002, 10:11 PM
Guys, we've hit that time when the original game has been played to death and ppl are expecting more and finding nothing.

But don't be so sure!

There are quite a lot of mods in hard development out there that will certainly extend the jk2 community for at least another year, I'm sure of it. Don't base your judgements on mods like JediMod or Promod that have some neat feature and then release the mod which has no chance of a real long life like Counter-Strike.

Be Patient, but don't give up on the game just yet! :)

SSO_DarthVader_
08-29-2002, 10:19 PM
Yeah, JKII ain't dieing. Heck, this game ain't even a year old yet lol.

Guardian Omega
08-29-2002, 11:15 PM
Well it's dying a bit, less and less servers and all. But when the UBER mods come out and Episode III, that'll be JKII's resurrection...........

Kurgan
09-01-2002, 07:48 PM
Well, people DO need TIME to make mods. If you think that perhaps 5% of the JK2 community makes mods that they plan to one day release (a generous estimate I'm sure) then perhaps they all are on similar schedules (hypothetical) it takes them a few days and they release a simple mod. Then you have nothing for awhile, and then they try something bigger, which takes a few weeks. Then they release that.

A lot of projects are so optimistic and huge they never get done, but usually those are dead in the water before a whole lot is accomplished. You know what I mean, the huge TC's that plan to change everything about the game and be packed with levels, and spend months getting a team together and releasing a few skins. That's okay, its how people learn from their mistakes.

But the point is that you can't expect mods to be released every single day, each better than the last. If you just mean skins, sure, in theory somebody could make a new skin every day. Or a small level. But good mods take TIME which means you have to wait, unless you're the one making the mod.

Again, doesn't mean the community is dying off. JK didn't see any major Conversions/Mods for a long time. Release was very sporadic. Much of the really amazing stuff was released YEARS later, after people had finally become comfortable with the engine.

ChrisC3po
09-01-2002, 07:55 PM
TESTING

Kurgan
09-01-2002, 07:57 PM
Saying that the game is dying is one of two things coming out:

1) A person's desire to make other people quit the game because they quit, for whatever reason (they got bored for example).

2) People getting panicky because they play during down-time or on holidays and don't see millions of servers full of players.

Probably #1 more often than not. They forget that while they might be sick of the game, others are completely happy with it and others are just discovering it for the first time.

As for #2, when 1.04 patch came out, it was spelled out that 1.04 would ONLY detect other 1.04 servers in its built in browser. So thousands of 1.02 and 1.03 games were ignored. So people freaked out and assumed the game was dying. Some people still play those older versions and you wouldn't know from just looking at your in-game browser.

Anyhow, if JK2 stops being #1 (or in the top 10 of games) who cares? That doesn't stop you from enjoying it. And you can always use bots to fill out your games if real players ever get scarce in the future. That's the beauty of it....

Single Player can't last forever and people do move on to other games if they get bored. That's why editing (which is just starting to take off) can help extend people's enjoyment of the game. But not everyone is aware of where to get good mods, and may have given up on the game already. But it's their loss... just enjoy what you have. ; )


So yes, technically if there is one less server every day than before, you could say it's "dying" but if a week later you have ten more extra servers, what does that mean? It's dynamic, not linear...


There could be a lot of reasons for "shortages" of servers. Perhaps people are on vacation or working and can't afford to spend time and money putting up servers like they can at other times of the year. Who knows. But people ARE still playing, and modding, so that's all that really matters to most of us.

D.L.
09-02-2002, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Saying that the game is dying is one of two things coming out:

1) A person's desire to make other people quit the game because they quit, for whatever reason (they got bored for example).

2) People getting panicky because they play during down-time or on holidays and don't see millions of servers full of players.

Not the case with me. I still play the game, usually daily for an hour or so. I'm not bored with it. I spawned this thread just to get the general concensus, as jkii.net hadn't updated in a week.


As for #2, when 1.04 patch came out, it was spelled out that 1.04 would ONLY detect other 1.04 servers in its built in browser. So thousands of 1.02 and 1.03 games were ignored. So people freaked out and assumed the game was dying. Some people still play those older versions and you wouldn't know from just looking at your in-game browser.

Also not the case. I'm up to date on patches, though I rarely play online at home due to speed restrcitions.

Anyhow, if JK2 stops being #1 (or in the top 10 of games) who cares? That doesn't stop you from enjoying it. And you can always use bots to fill out your games if real players ever get scarce in the future. That's the beauty of it....


Bots are only so difficult. It's not that hard to learn their moves and paths. There's a certain inpredictability about human players.

I never cared about JK2's status in the chart. People who like will play it constantly no doubt but a point arises when you can only play so much of the same thing, which is where mods come in. The fact that the game changed majorly twice with official patches didn't help. I liked 1.03 but I really believe 1.04 is a step down from it. I don't let it bother me or affect my game, as I have JediMod though this is far from perfect. New mods are needed to increase the lifespan of the game. Fact. Look at Quake3/Half Life and see how the various mods have extended the lifespan of those games majorly.

Single Player can't last forever and people do move on to other games if they get bored. That's why editing (which is just starting to take off) can help extend people's enjoyment of the game. But not everyone is aware of where to get good mods, and may have given up on the game already. But it's their loss... just enjoy what you have. ; )

I agree. But eventually people will get bored with what they have. It's human nature. You want something new, not something old, even though it's still in perfect working order. If editing is only taking off now, it'll be a bright future as the current editing standard has been high.


So yes, technically if there is one less server every day than before, you could say it's "dying" but if a week later you have ten more extra servers, what does that mean? It's dynamic, not linear...

Like I said, I was basing it on editing activity not servers. There are plenty of servers out there.


:)

razorace
09-02-2002, 05:49 PM
ASk has discovered a hidden feature in the JK2 code. We believe we've figured out the syntax and will be releasing the information shortly. As such, we could really use a experience mapper for testing purposes.

You can't really call a game "dead" when all the built-in features haven't been explored. :)

Razor Ace

thehomicidalegg
09-03-2002, 06:49 AM
theres a difference between dying and dead.
a dead game means theres a limitted gaming community with no future and is played only sporatically

a dying game is not dead, its merely fading. people still play it often, there are hardcore gamers that play it continuously, there are still newbies joining....BUT the TOTAL community of that game is decreasing... and this IS the case in Jk2.

one cannot deny that there are less people playing now than say 3-4 months ago. the number of ppl playing may increase due 2 certain patches or mods but that number would not reach the size of 1.02 - early 1.03 size. the number of servers have decreased ( i wont say dramatically), and the gap between serious gamers(like many who visit forums like this) and amateur( people who just play for fun) have increased

i certainly do not wish jk2 to die, but the undeniable fact is that its gaming community is shrinking (due to other new games like war3 etc, and because of the length of time since its release). ppl will continue to play jk2 still for quite a while and i certainly hope for a expansion pack or sequal to boost this community again!

D.L.
09-03-2002, 07:33 AM
I agree. An expansion pack is really what this game needs. Some new environments and maybe even offical Raven-Approved versions of JediMod and/or ProMod. There are a number of niggling bugs in each program that Raven could iron out with the full source and their JK2 team.

razorace
09-03-2002, 03:09 PM
The amount of programming/legal effort would be expensive for Raven to add jedimod as a official patch. They're much more likely to just make an expansion patch.

FatalStrike
09-03-2002, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by razorace
The amount of programming/legal effort would be expensive for Raven to add jedimod as a official patch. They're much more likely to just make an expansion patch.

I agree, in fact they may even have worries of using ideas that people have already made in Mods since they may be intellectual property of the Mod designer. Who knows.

I find it hard to believe that Raven will do anymore with this game and I am not sure that is a bad thing considering the past changes they've made.

JKII is not dead and will most likely live for a long time because of Mods suchs as ProMod, jk++, and JediMod. As long as we have creative and talented individuals out there sharing their ideas so that Mod makers can see what people want, I think JKII has some life in her yet!

Please do not ask raven for anymore Nerf's. On the off chance that we can get Raven to do something else for this game, lets see if we can get them to remove some of the overly nerfed strats and add some new things to the game. If you ask for something to be "fixed" you will be doing great harm to this community.

When asking for changes made to the game please think-

How can I make this game better for everyone

and not..

I hate this <insert move here> I want it weakened immediately!!

This game should have enough effective attacking and defending techniques that every player can use his own imagination to create an attacking/defending scheme that is effective. At the moment we have very few effective strats due to a very limited number of effective attacks. Please remember that this game is not made for YOU, it is made for all of us. it is not fair for anyone to say my style should not be allowed. You play your way, I will play mine, we all paid for this game and thus should all be allowed the freedom to play as our creativity leads us.

Thanks

FatalStrike

TheWhiteRaider
09-03-2002, 06:56 PM
If you keep talking like JK2 is dying that your dooming it even more! Remember the first things you lose in war is morral and truth.
If you lose morral you won't fight as hard and if you lose truth you won't know which of the facts are true. In WWII Japan tried to demorralize our troops by radio stations. They would have this lady with a beutiful voice come on and say stuff that wouldn't insult them, but it would have an effect on them.

KnightHawk420
09-04-2002, 05:45 AM
Just download and try ProMod.


Or enable autodownload and join one of my servers.


Praxeum Knights Saber Only FFA - Promod Beta 2
IP: 206.169.69.25:28070

Praxeum Knights CTF - Promod Beta 2
IP: 206.169.69.25:28080


Promod eliminates the inferiority when it comes to competition play. And is getting better all the time. :)

Mallister
09-04-2002, 08:24 AM
Wow, my first post here...

So? As long as there's a hardcore fanbase the game won't "die" until JK3 comes out.

Ditto this. I just started playing the game and I see this thread...

I religiously played the same game for almost two years...Wheel of Time. At it's peak, there were probably no more than 10-15 arena servers and 8-10 citadel servers. This was right after the game came out. It was announced that there would be NO sequel. Some people started making maps but there were no true mods developed.

There was a small, but very serious, hard core fan base. This is all it takes to keep a game going. After two years of clanning and playing this game, I was burned out. But, guess what? The game is still going. It came out 4th qtr of 1999...no new mods and very few maps.

D.L.
09-04-2002, 09:21 AM
I think some people are getting the wrong impression from me. I never meant this thread to be a "JK2 is dead" thread. It was supposed to get the opinions of people regarding JK2 after, what, 6 months.

I still play the game, though not as much as I did originally. It's a great game.

I agree that we shouldn't ask Raven for any more patches. Hell, I was happy with 1.02 and I didn't want any other patches, period. I had to upgrade to find servers. JediMod and ProMod have made the game a lot more enjoyable. I don't think there would be too much legal wrangling over Raven making it official. To the best of my knowledge, CS was sort of unoffical and became offical. As did a number of mods for Quake 3 and UT. (Rocket Arena for one)

It'd be interesting to see how far these mods could go with offical support. Dual Sabers with proper animation would be great and bugs would be next to non existant. It'd be good for the community if Raven worked with the creators of these mods or even on their code (which technically is an edited Raven code, so theres more legal stuff) :)

ArtifeX
09-04-2002, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by NeJJa
well, first off the thing that generally sustains the life of an online shooter after the first few "ooh ahh" months is the competetion. my definition of a game being "alive" are online clans/leagues/ladders, and since JK2 is really competitively inferior (which saddens me more than anything) do to a number of things, the game just doesnt have that big of a following. so disappointing too, JK1 was like a very competitive scene, and now this crap. well, my 2 cents.


You've perfectly described why i wrote ProMod. The true life of an online FPS is determined by the ladder competitions. ProMod was created to revitalize the game in that respect by making the game more suited to it in the following ways:

1. Adding more skill-based outcomes. The original version takes little skill to block and only a little more to hit someone *cough*hit from behind bug*cough*. I think ProMod's come a long way in forcing players to concentrate and practice to get good.

2. Adding depth of play. Most people had nearly the same force power layouts for every game mode. Get absorb level 3, sight level 1, Saber Throw, Jump, blah blah blah. Most of the Force Powers were totally ignored. CTF players ignored the saber completely and just got a projectile weapons and either Absorb and Speed or Dark Rage and Speed (if they wanted to make flag runs). Beta 2 includes the first wave of force power changes that aim to make all powers useful, thereby making each player's Force loadout unique.

3. Empowering the game's most-loved feature: the lightsaber. How many people ran to their software store saying to themselves, "Wow! I'm going to get to use the Rocket Launcher in this game!" I didn't. I don't know anybody that did. I admit some play for the Force Powers alone, but I don't think those people will stick around long. They can always go play some RuneQuake, which has all the same effects and better guns, to boot. I'm constantly working with the saber to make it viewed as something more than a glowing Quake axe.

There's been a lot of resistance among some of the top players to adopting ProMod over the vanilla 1.04 version of the game. Most have said they don't want to relearn how to play. I can understand their perspective. They've spent a lot of practice time getting to the top, and they'd rather not jeopardize that by switching to a different set of skills.

What they need to understand is that people are going to continue to drop out of the game due to its lack of depth if something is not done. They'll find being at the top of their CTF ladder is far less rewarding when all of their challengers have moved on.

If some other mod comes along that's better geared towards ladder play, great. Use it instead of ProMod, but use something else! I haven't seen any other mods that deal with these issues, though. Until I do, I think that any ladder that wants to truly prolong the life of the game should switch over to ProMod, even in its beta state.

One last thought

We have enough tweak/window-dressing mods! All of the mods that are coming out that only make small changes are doing nothing to expand the community. They are only serving to confuse those new to mod-playing. I've heard tons of people say that they hate playing mods. When I ask why, they say that all the mods do is change "stupid" stuff like their saber color, or make their model a midget or a giant, or that they add the completely unnecessary grappling hook.

I think the worst thing that ever happened to the community was the release of the JediMod source code. Every 10 year old with a text editor seems to have their own brand. How many corrupted versions of JediMod do we have now? Can you look at the server listings and know exactly what to expect in each mod? If you, as a forum-goer, don't know what to expect, then how is a n00b supposed to know? Those same n00bs are going to get frustrated and leave.

Please, if you're going to release a mod, do something different. Don't just add some emotes to somebody else's source code and release it under some name starting with the letter, "J". You'll just increase the chaos, and in doing so, worsen the situation for those already contemplating an exodus from the game.

Sigh. End Rant.

D.L.
09-04-2002, 09:50 AM
I think the worst thing that ever happened to the community was the release of the JediMod source code. Every 10 year old with a text editor seems to have their own brand. How many corrupted versions of JediMod do we have now? Can you look at the server listings and know exactly what to expect in each mod? If you, as a forum-goer, don't know what to expect, then how is a n00b supposed to know? Those same n00bs are going to get frustrated and leave.

Please, if you're going to release a mod, do something different. Don't just add some emotes to somebody else's source code and release it under some name starting with the letter, "J". You'll just increase the chaos, and in doing so, worsen the situation for those already contemplating an exodus from the game.

Sigh. End Rant.

This is an extremely valid point. I have 5 mods on my MP JK2.

-ProMod Beta 2
-JediMod 1.1
-Instaglib
-Hydroball
-JetPack (Which I'd like to see incorporated into ProMod or JediMod, maybe as a new game type if possible)

While new mods are important, having 20 versions of a mod that does essentially the same thing is ridiculous. It's wastes server space and drives the community apart. I think that only JediMod 1.1 should be used rather than the whole JediMod++ stuff that is popping up.

I'm guessing that the ProMod code will never be released and that's a good thing.

Ged
09-04-2002, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by D.L.
I agree. An expansion pack is really what this game needs. Some new environments and maybe even offical Raven-Approved versions of JediMod and/or ProMod. There are a number of niggling bugs in each program that Raven could iron out with the full source and their JK2 team.

I really hope its a cold day in Hell bfore Raven touch this game again. You really think it wise for the ppl who gave us .... ep1.3 The Ass Wars & ep1.4 The Nerf Wars, to incorporate excellent mods such as ProMod (Officially) into any future expansion ?. I mean ProMod was primarily designed to largely 'Undo' what Raven did with the patches after 1.2. Doubt they'll want to step into that irony.

Nah ProMod is best left in the hands of its fathers as far as i'm concerned.

Cheers.

D.L.
09-04-2002, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Ged


I really hope its a cold day in Hell bfore Raven touch this game again. You really think it wise for the ppl who gave us .... ep1.3 The Ass Wars & ep1.4 The Nerf Wars, to incorporate excellent mods such as ProMod (Officially) into any future expansion ?. I mean ProMod was primarily designed to largely 'Undo' what Raven did with the patches after 1.2. Doubt they'll want to step into that irony.

Nah ProMod is best left in the hands of its fathers as far as i'm concerned.

Cheers.

LOL! I suppose so but I was thinking about Raven being involved from an aesthetic point of view. There could do new animations for the Dual Saber (which doesn't look great at the moment) and well as making sure that sabers fit in both hands accurately as well as some new stances that aren't just a mix of other stances (in JediMod)

I don't think they should touch any of the other things though 1.03/1.04 were customisable back to the way 1.02 was. There were a number of commands you could edit. It was the admins who didn't know how and Raven got a lot of backlash that wasn't necessarily deserved. Plus I like 1.03. More than 1.02.

Sith Maximus
09-04-2002, 11:13 AM
I think that JK2 will be revived again by Christmas at the latest. Right now all of the real hardcore players have put out their hard earned cash on the game. Plus Attack of the Clones is just about out of the Movie houses, so the desire to be a Jedi is fading. The biggest boost this community could get right now would be a price cut from Raven on the game itself.

As far as the mods go Artifex is right about one thing. The source code for Jeidmod should never have been made a public download. Look at Jediplus 3.3. Its full of bugs!

All we need is more time for the game to come down in price and for the bad mods to go away. For me I will not download any variation of Jedimod unless it is an update from Dest.

Another thing to remember is that if we want to expand the community then as a whole we need to HELP each other! If you’re in a game and someone asks you how you did a move…TELL THEM! Don’t laugh and say…for me to know and u to find out! This is the type of attitude that kills games.

When I first started this game no one would tell me anything. Sure I read the manual but that was not a lot of help in the real game environment. It took nearly three weeks before a nice guy helped me out with my moves and showed me a few tricks.

On my Jeidmod server I have a key bound to all of the commands so that I can help anyone at any time. I also will always help anyone who needs it or wants it. This way people can learn the game and love it as we do.

Also do not call anyone a nOOb. That pisses them off and will send them back to play Counterstrike. Help them! If you do that then we will have very few nOOb players left.

I will keep my server up for as long as I have players on it. And that brings up another point. Many a night I see a list of a few hundred servers but almost half are either empty or locked. So we do have lots of places to play, just not enough players. This is why as a community it would be better to run servers of all one patch type or a mod that makes the master server think they are all the same....hmmmm

A great mod would be one for the server admins. It would allow them to make custom changes to the game play based on the “type” of version they want to play while still making the server appear to be a 1.04 version. Then in your cfg you could change the settings to reflect 1.02, 1.03 or 1.04. This would, at the least, bring all of the servers into the same list. I would write it if I was able to, but alas I am unskilled in this area. If it was a dl of saw less than 700k most players would wait for it. And if we all had it....

Just an idea…...or a mad ramble

But I will play this game until it does die, but I see that a long way off!

taboo
09-04-2002, 01:49 PM
Everyone loves the Star Wars universe so I understand why so many inexeperienced ppl are motivated to try modding,mapping, skinning etc. Hell, I'm one of them ... jk2 inspired me to try mapping. Having said this, there needs to be a filter/review process at some point before the jk2 public is subjected to the more useless user-made addons.

The review process used at the Massassi Temple seems quite good imho but most of the 'come back and find/review me after you've tried me' review/download schemes just don't seem viable.

With so much user made content of variable quality, I believe we need someone/a group to determine what is quality content and what is not. There would be number of positive results from this :

1) reduced amounts of time the average user spends trying to figure out if content is a waste of space or is actually worthwhile.

2) reduce the effort/time/frustration barrier to ppl new to jk2. Imagine starting jk2 now and trying to make sense of all the new mods/maps/etc. 'But you need the new saber hilt mod, really!' :p

3) it would act as an incentive for content creators to properly finish their work or else their work wouldn't be listed as recommended/quality/etc.

This person/group would have to make some tough calls and would certainly get a fair amount of flak for their efforts. However, I do believe the community would be better for this kind of service.

Yes, in case anyone recalls, I have mentioned this idea before. I thought the idea was worth repeating however.

ArtifeX
09-04-2002, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by taboo
Everyone loves the Star Wars universe so I understand why so many inexeperienced ppl are motivated to try modding,mapping, skinning etc. Hell, I'm one of them ... jk2 inspired me to try mapping. Having said this, there needs to be a filter/review process at some point before the jk2 public is subjected to the more useless user-made addons.
...

I agree that this is a great idea. I'd love to see jediknightii.net host a review site. maybe jk2reviews.jediknightii.net? The current file rating system just doesn't work. I had over 8,000 downloads of ProMod Beta 1 tallied up, but only 11 people actually rating the file. I think that those new to the game would give more consideration to using a new mod, map, or skin if there were actually a detailed review of some of the bigger releases.

Kurgan would be a good choice for the job if he's got the time, I think. If you read his strategy guides I think you'll agree that he seems to have his head on straight, and is pretty impartial.

Kurgan? How about it?

Kurgan
09-04-2002, 04:02 PM
To answer some replies:


D.L

Not much I can add to what you already said, since they're mostly opinions and people are bound to have different experiences.

I interpert "the game is dead/dying" to indicate that fewer and fewer people are interested in the game, to the point where the community itself is emptying out. I don't see that happening. I see people coming and going.

It's the people saying that the game IS dying that I'm disagreeing with, and what my comments were directed towards.

Most of the reasons I've heard people give for their notion that the game is dying fall into those categories (and I don't agree with them).


Bots are only so difficult. It's not that hard to learn their moves and paths. There's a certain inpredictability about human players.


True, but you've got to admit, that many players fall into predictable patterns themselves. How many times have we been in a game and had somebody who only knew one or two moves with the saber or only one weapon they used over and over? How often have you tricked somebody with the same booby trap or sniper position over and over to have them cuss you out and leave/try to get you vote-kicked?

Sure, bots aren't perfect, but once you get good at the game, it can often be tough to find people who are still better than you (I'm not saying they don't exist, I personally believe that there are always "better players" you just might not meet them every day). Bots can also be edited, I might add....

Good comments. I'm just a little jaded, because I remember hearing those comments when JK1 had been out a year and with the JK2 community almost as soon as the game had been released (I guess the warez kiddies beat the game the first day they downloaded it and then basically said the game was dead when it was finally released to the rest of the world??).

I see the mod community as a potentially limitless source of innovation to inspire people to keep playing the game. There is (believe it or not) still a Doom/2 community, and not just the people waiting for Doom3. Why? Because there's so many tools and sources available, people can do all kinds of impressive things. And the game is still being sold, inspite of it being totally obsolete in terms of graphics, sound, gameplay, etc. Now granted, most people don't consider "Doom 2" to be a viable commercial giant, but the property certainly is viable, and the game is so cheap and old, just about anybody can get it and run it. So saying a new game like JK2 is dead is short-sighted I think. In a sense, no good game ever need "die" as long as people are still willing to mod it, even if all of the major servers dry up and we only see a few private games here and there.

But if mods are still coming out, and servers are still up, I don't think the game can be called "dead" by any stretch of the imagination. "Dying" could only really be gauged by total sales I suppose. If the game is no longer being sold, then I guess its "dead" in that sense.

People need to realize (don't want to sound too much like a broken record here) that many things affect the community's size.

Realize that people buy new games at different times. The entire JK2 community was NOT born March 28, 2002. New people are joining and leaving all the time. People buy games when they go on sale, or when they get tired of their other games, or when they buy gifts for people (gift-buying seasons like Christmas dramatically increase sales of entertainment items in general). Stuff like promotions (stuff like that Gateway Challenge) and new patches and mods may help introduce people to the game or get them to come back to playing it or play it more often.

People in different parts of the world may discover the game at different rates. People in Country A didn't get the game until much later than Country B, so they are just discovering it. Somebody who hadn't heard of the game until after they saw Episode 2 in theatres and went to the store to look for SW games is going to be new to the game.

The release of an official expansion would inevitably bring some new people in. The point is that the community is a dynamic affair. I think the way some people talk, they act as if its a simple fixed number of players, and this number simply dwindles as time goes by. That may happen over the long run (we're talking years here) but look at it this way... Raven could in theory release a new expansion every year or so and if each one was popular, people could still be theoretically buying new copies of JK2 three or four years from now. Not saying that will happen, but for games like The Sims and Half Life, that's basically true.

More comments to come....

Kurgan
09-04-2002, 04:37 PM
As to writing reviews for mods, I'd love to do that (when I get time) as I've written reviews before. While they can take a lot of time, they are usually fun (the "research" is the fun part.. heh).

As to a review site for JK2.net, I'll just have to say "wait and see..."


Some seem to be saying that bad mods hurt a game. I would probably agree, assuming those bad mods are highly visible. Whereas good mods help a game, if people know about them. Either way, YOU can do something to help the community out by making good mods, and being a good sport when you play, agreed.

As far as "being a Jedi" going out of fashion, I doubt it. People wanted to be Jedi for the 16 years between Return of the Jedi and The Phantom Menace (14 years between ROTJ and the Special Editions), and LEC and their support companies have many more "Jedi" games in the works. But those movies DO help raise people's interest, but they're not the only source of interest. ; )

taboo
09-04-2002, 06:14 PM
Hehe, i'm almost 30 and a little wee part of me still want to be a jedi when i grow up. :)

I would think that making the good mods more visible would be exactly what a review site would do. I'm not suggesting that bad mods get buried/lost, but that good mods are highlighted, reviewed and explained.

I won't weigh in on whether jk2 is dying or not. However, when I first got my grubby little hands on this game I was awestruck. The single player was brilliant (a bit annoying in places maybe) and the multiplayer had tons of potential but it quickly became apparent that it needed patching. So I took a step back and have been waiting to see what kind of mp equilibrium would be reached. I imagine that I am not alone in this sense.

The patches and mods so far have been rather flimsy in my opinion. They have improved on gameplay somewhat which is good but not enough in my mind. ArtifeX's promod however is more like a jk2 v1.5 ... if it takes off, I think we'll see a lot of renewed interest in jk2.

Anyway, just my 2 cents etc

Hiteche5
09-05-2002, 04:15 AM
Well Kurgan I could agree with your aurgement that that JKII is not dead if some people still play and some mods are being developed but like you said also that is your definition. To others, their definition is by the amount of people on the servers. When compared to other games that are much older you must admit that the JKII fanbase is small.

I for one love this game but I live in Hawaii and I only see 2 or 3 servers with a decent 100 ping (and you know that ain't too hot) and those servers generally have 2-3 people on it. Too ME that looks dead and does not give me a good outlook.

Also when guaging wether a game is "dead" or "dying" people cannot help but use comparisons. Look at gamespy stats...70000 people in HL and 6000 in MOH. Heck even UT and Q3 still hit around 4500 a nite. JKII is now down around the 1300 mark.

I just feel bad that I am alienated from all the good stuff coming out. I can't ping a Promod server under 400. And the JediMod and JediPlus servers are in the 250 range. I'm on cable but distance kills me. :(

D.L.
09-05-2002, 08:28 AM
Bots can also be edited, I might add....

Yes, I'm aware of this. I've already edited my bots to make them very fast, very accurate but they are still somewhat predictable. I was actually going to release the bot files for a tougher challenge to those not fortunate enough to be able to play online.

On a related note, I can do some reviews for mods/files/etc if needed.

Nobodi Kenobi
09-06-2002, 01:37 AM
I have been absent from this game and forum for about two to three months and publically quit the game sometime in May/June.

I posted a "farewell thread" where I explained I quit the game because of my frustration with the horrible patches Raven put out (1.3, 1.4) that basically destroyed the base Jedi Outcast game which resulted in splintering the community into over a billion Mods and server settings that go way beyond player perference and made the game boring because of the limited number of choices -- nerfed saber, weapons and force powers -- That a player could use to have fun or defeat an opponent.

I still stand by that statement and do not play online that much anymore if at all.

I think this is relevant because I do know for a fact that I wasn't the only one to leave the game altogether -- The MP portion -- For the reasons I stated above.

However, what hasn't been brought up here yet is the fact that a lot of players - avid gamers and also JKI fans - Thought that JO wasn't that good a game to begin with... And I happen to partly agree with that analysis as well.

The reason I agree with this is because while there is no other game currently like JO on the market today... If you get right down to it, JO is an appealing game when you first play it, but generally looses its appeal after an extensive period of time (6 months or more)...

Because the game itself is very shallow and lacks any depth to it once you get past the "Oo and ahh" phase as someone put it.

How is it shallow and lack depth you ask?

It's shallow and lacks depth because the main thing the game focused on when it came out was asthetics (and that's what still primarily attracts people more than anything else). I'm referring to the lightsaber, level design, SW Universe Character representations, etc.

However, actual gameplay -- Even in 1.2 -- Was still lacking in many aspects and in particular, any real skill once you got past all of the asthetics (and it's only gotten worse).

I think this is important to note as it reflects not just the competitive players attitudes, but average players like myself.

MP saber battles in 1.2 -- aside from the "feather glance kill bug" -- Were mostly about luck. If you recall, this was one of the complaints that a lot of people expressed when they asked Raven to make MP saber battles to be more like the SP porption.

Then we got 1.3 which was a total cluster f*ck anyway you put it.

It divided the community not only because of the technical bugs it introduced into the game (spammed, one-hit kill moves), but because it also touched on something that I think the JO community had been trying to avoid until then and that is it revealed a side of players -- and brought in a certain type of player -- That the JO community thought existed in "other" games and wasn't present in JO... At least not yet since the game was still relatively new when 1.3 came out.

I'm talking about the kind of players who fully admitted to using the one-hit kill moves and other exploits just so they could be number one on the kill board at the end of a match with that being their ONLY goal, foregoing the social aspect or anything remotely ressembling "civilzed" online behavior.

These kinds of players were usually the more immature players and basically the ones many would classify as "asses" or "jerks" that need to be voted off from time to time...

And while these players exist in all games... They really started to come out of the wood-work when 1.3 was introduced and this splintered the community with those "jerk" players being at odds with the ones who considered themselves more "ideal" JO players who followed the SW, Jedi code and whatnot.

Do you see what I am getting at?

I will assume you are smart enough to read between the lines so I will move on...

My main point in rehashing all that is the fact that perhaps JO wasn't meant to have a long life as other games that have come before it have?

It may not be what anybody wants to hear, but it might be the truth (especially if Raven keeps nerfing things, but I digress...).

Now, is the JO Community dying?

Like many have said, there are different definitions and interpretations of what "dying" and "dead" are so I won't bother throw my two cents in with regard to this specific question.

I will say, however, that if you look at how many servers there active on any given day using Gamespy or All-Seeing Eye, a lot of them ARE empty now and at peak hours when most players could be playing the game, regardless of age; either after school and at night -- And this includes the Modded servers as well and not just the regular 1.2-1.4 servers.

Again, while I realize that isn't enough to make a generalization on whether the community is dying or not, I think it is a fair indicator of perhaps how popular the game is right now and even if people don't want to admit it, it is tapering off (as all games do over time)... And I see no real ressurgence in sight unless Raven releases an expansion or other high visibility product/update to get the general public interested in the game again (like AOTC did).

mrlove
09-06-2002, 07:10 AM
amen for promod!

ArtifeX
09-06-2002, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Nobodi Kenobi
I have been absent from this game and forum for about two to three months and publically quit the game sometime in May/June.

I posted a "farewell thread" where I explained I quit the game because of my frustration with the horrible patches Raven put out (1.3, 1.4) that basically destroyed the base Jedi Outcast game which resulted in splintering the community into over a billion Mods and server settings that go way beyond player perference and made the game boring because of the limited number of choices -- nerfed saber, weapons and force powers -- That a player could use to have fun or defeat an opponent.

I still stand by that statement and do not play online that much anymore if at all.

I think this is relevant because I do know for a fact that I wasn't the only one to leave the game altogether -- The MP portion -- For the reasons I stated above.
...
Again, while I realize that isn't enough to make a generalization on whether the community is dying or not, I think it is a fair indicator of perhaps how popular the game is right now and even if people don't want to admit it, it is tapering off (as all games do over time)... And I see no real ressurgence in sight unless Raven releases an expansion or other high visibility product/update to get the general public interested in the game again (like AOTC did).

You have described nearly verbatim my own "farewell/retirement" post some months ago. I quit for exactly the same reasons, and left my reasons posted publicly in an effor to spur whoever was in control of JK2's future into taking some kind of action to repair the game. It was only when 1.04 came out that I realized that Raven/Lucasarts was incapable of completing the game.

Yes, I said, completing the game. No game is complete until the people who bought the game are satisified with their purchase.

You are exactly the kind of person that ProMod was created for in the first place. If you haven't tried it, please do. It really does fix a bunch of the beefs you had with the official versions. It's not a gimmick mod that you'll play for a bit and realize that under the surface it's no different from the regular game.

It makes the saber fighting, and some other aspects a lot more interesting than before. It really does take skill to win now. Go read the "About" section at the main site (http://www.oculis.org/promod/), then read the strategy section. Find yourself a server, and get into a private duel or duel gametype. You'll see that you're having to do a lot more physical and mental work to win.

But don't take my word for it. Just ask those who've been playing ProMod lately.

KrazeFan
09-06-2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by ArtifeX


It was only when 1.04 came out that I realized that Raven/Lucasarts was incapable of completing the game.

Yes, I said, completing the game. No game is complete until the people who bought the game are satisified with their purchase.



Ya can't please everyone ...

Sith Maximus
09-06-2002, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by ArtifeX


.It's not a gimmick mod that you'll play for a bit and realize that under the surface it's no different from the regular game.



If u read my other posts from today you will see how I feel about promod...but for the most part I like it.

But other mods do offer things that the original does not and DOES allows the server the ability to increase the skill of the game. The mod that I run most right now is Jedimod v1.2.

Under the skin of the emotes is a system that alows for moves that were removed from the game to be put back in. And the ability to change some of the damage skills as well as the zoned damage.

Meaning that if you are to slice someone in heavy stance in the head they die...period.I also run always trace saber first, always box trace, ghoul 2 collision and a box trace size of 0 as well as knockback set to 1.2. and lower blocking values...meaning if your swinging you are not blocking.These allow for some serious duels. If you do not know what u are doing then you will die in one move.

So please do not say that these games are "just like" the regualar game. True they do not have the + and - system of promod...but more skill is needed than any standard game of JK2. You add in the variety of dual sabers and the extra stances and you can have one hell of a fight.

But some nights people just want to have fun and goof off. Things like jetpacks and emotes allow for this. Promod is for those who take the game very serious indeed, and sometimes I like that. Other times goofing off is more fun.

ArtifeX
09-06-2002, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Sith Maximus

So please do not say that these games are "just like" the regualar game. True they do not have the + and - system of promod...but more skill is needed than any standard game of JK2. You add in the variety of dual sabers and the extra stances and you can have one hell of a fight.


I wasn't specifically referring to jedimod1.2, or any of the other mods. I was only trying to differentiate ProMod from the average mod you'll find in the jkii.net files section.

You're right, jm1.2 is great for goofing off with the emotes and such. Some of the more role-play-style jk2'ers have told me they use it for that reason. I can understand that. Nobodi Kenobi doesn't sound like he runs with that crowd. I was attempting to tell him that ProMod concentrates on substantive gameplay, which is what he seems to crave.

FatalStrike
09-06-2002, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Sith Maximus


So please do not say that these games are "just like" the regualar game. True they do not have the + and - system of promod...but more skill is needed than any standard game of JK2. You add in the variety of dual sabers and the extra stances and you can have one hell of a fight.

ProMod changes the way the game "feels" not just the way it "looks"

The new Footspeed changes have brought back that fast and fluid feel of the original without bring back the bugs. No longer is the game full of constant slow downs.

The blocking system is reliable, you know what is going to happen when you block. You don't have these partial break or some buggy system that sometimes blocks and sometimes doesn't.

The game feels much more polished then 1.04 and any of the Mods that run the same system with a few extras.

Other Mods are great fun, but thats it. Deep down at their core they are the same as 1.04, they just have some added features. ProMod has a different system, that is almost as radical as the change from 1.02 to 1.03.

Sith Maximus
09-06-2002, 04:20 PM
Here is a list of the new variables in Jediplus 3.4. These are the defaults. My new setting are about 20% higher.

Notice the box trace settings. If you have not played this way then you need to before you post a comment..not bitching....just I think you need to test these settings.

mod_damagecontrol; Turns full server-side saber damage contol on if set to 1

mod_redmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 2)
mod_redmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 120)
mod_rspmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Special (default 2) (Jump Attack)
mod_rspmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Special (default 180) (Jump Attack)
mod_rbsmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Backstab (default 2)
mod_rbsmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Backstab (default 30)

mod_yspmin; - Minimum Damage of Yellow Stance Special (default 2) (DFA)
mod_yspmax; - Maximum Damage of Yellow Stance Special (default 80) (DFA)
mod_ybsmin; - Minimum Damage of Yellow Stance Backstab (default 2)
mod_ybsmax; - Maximum Damage of Yellow Stance Backstab (default 25)
mod_yellowdmg; - Damage of Yellow Stance Standard Attack (default 60)

mod_bspmin; - Minimum Damage of Blue Stance Special (default 2) (Lunge)
mod_bspmax; - Maximum Damage of Blue Stance Special (default 30) (Lunge)
mod_bbsmin; - Minimum Damage of Blue Stance Backstab (default 2)
mod_bbsmax; - Maximum Damage of Blue Stance Backstab (default 30)
mod_bluedmg; - Damage of Blue Stance Standard Attack (default 30)

mod_ospmin; - Minimum Damage of Orange Stance Special (default 2) (Tornado)
mod_ospmax; - Maximum Damage of Orange Stance Special (default 70) (Tornado)
mod_obsmin; - Minimum Damage of Orange Stance Backstab (default 2)
mod_obsmax; - Maximum Damage of Orange Stance Backstab (default 25)
mod_orangedmg; - Damage of Orange Stance Standard Attack (default 55)

mod_pspmin; - Minimum Damage of Purple Stance Special (default 2) (DFA2)
mod_pspmax; - Maximum Damage of Purple Stance Special (default 70) (DFA2)
mod_pbsmin; - Minimum Damage of Purple Stance Backstab (default 2)
mod_pbsmax; - Maximum Damage of Purple Stance Backstab (default 25)
mod_purpledmg; - Damage of Purple Stance Standard Attack (default 30)

Saber stuff:
seta g_saberboxtracesize "-1"
seta g_saberdmgvelocityscale "1.2"
seta g_saberdmgdelay_idle "350"
seta g_saberdmgdelay_wound "0"
seta g_saberghoul2collision "1"
seta g_sabertracesaberfirst "1"
seta _saberalwaysboxtrace "1"

And yes Promod has a different "feel" to it than other mods. If you also read you will see that I do LIKE Promod, others on my server did not.

Blocking in the current Jedimod/Jediplus is also a variable command. You can make it higher or lower. At lower settings you do not block unless you are not swinging your saber. A swinging saber is open to attacks because it is unable to fully block them.

seta mod_blockscale "0"

This setting means NO autoblocking. If you swing and miss and your opponent has an opening that they can use to strike before you bring your hands back to the ready position to block....then you are prob dead. This settings in plain english means do not swing unless you know your going to hit someone. This comes from lots of practice.

Most servers I have been on none of these settings have been used and indeed it is just a "window" dressing of 1.04.

But the way I have the saber damage set and the way the blocking works is more like 1.02, which is what I feel Promod is a close kin to in many ways.

Also I get no slowdowns on my server of any kind and if you feel that Jedimod/Jediplus it is a slower game it is not....

seta mod_timescale "1.2"//default is 1.0

This setting speeds the game up sligtly and takes away the "slow" feeling of standard 1.04.

I think all mods have a place...Promod for those fans who take games in general very serious, and the other mods for those who play for fun.

I find myself in the middle....so I will play both. I just felt that it was time someone got to the plate and took a swing for jedimod/jediplus. But the clients speak out the most.

I ran Promod for 2 1/2 hra last night and had three (including me) clients. twocame because they always do, one was even my co admin, and I sent them the Promod link. No others came to my door.

Then, at their request, I launched the Forcemod and within five minutes of being up we were full.

If Promod becomes the dominating mod then I will run it reguardless of what others feel. But for now I will stick to the most part Jedimod and Jediplus with the heavily modified settings I have talked about here.

Daxion Rai
09-09-2002, 05:35 PM
All this negative talk makes a n00b like me discouraged. I just got the game and am looking for some good games. But all I hear is nerfed weapon balance and spam/cheap moves. What would you vets suggest for a beginner? Where can one find good servers to train/play without having to put up with any immature crap?

Thnax in advance.:o

Jedi Spy
09-09-2002, 07:34 PM
didnt i mention that would be the opinion of new players when reading these threads? - Thankyou

*hears echos of you were right spy*

Please lets have no more whine threads about jk2. Its a great game or u would be playing it.

Daxon Rai where are u from? If ur from uk i can direct u in the way of some good servers

Jah Warrior
09-09-2002, 10:09 PM
Yes this game is on the brink of death, new players are few and far between now, this is down to th eridiculous number of mods available, its just messed everything up.:mad:

D.L.
09-10-2002, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Spy
didnt i mention that would be the opinion of new players when reading these threads? - Thankyou

*hears echos of you were right spy*

Please lets have no more whine threads about jk2. Its a great game or u would be playing it.

Daxon Rai where are u from? If ur from uk i can direct u in the way of some good servers

And the constant threads bitching about 1.03, 1.04, DFA, Red Stance, Backstab, Cheating, Bugs in the game and so on and so forth wouldn't have had the same effect regardless of this thread?

No one is disputing the game itself. Obviously if you are posting here, you are still playing it. This thread is looking at the future (or lack thereof, for some people) of the game.

He's from NYC as it plainly says under his avatar.

ArtifeX
09-10-2002, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Sith Maximus
Here is a list of the new variables in Jediplus 3.4....

mod_damagecontrol; Turns full server-side saber damage contol on if set to 1

mod_redmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 2)
mod_redmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 120)
mod_rspmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Special (default 2) (Jump Attack)
...

This is exactly what I want to avoid in ProMod. This is way too much customizability for an admin to have. I would bet there are no two servers running this mod with the exact same settings. How are you supposed to formulate and practice a set of combat techniques when they'll work differently on every server you visit?
How are you supposed to get any better if you don't frequent the same server?

I can't imagine how frustrating this would be to new players. There are so many variables for them to grasp already. Throwing in one more variable for every single type of swing would make the learning curve extremely high for someone truly wanting to improve their skill level.

The worst part about it is that there's no way for them to realize what these variables are set at before they join. Even after they join they would have to play for some time before they could figure out what all the damages are set at (they'd have to allow themselves to be hit by the different swings and look at the resulting damage).

ASk
09-10-2002, 10:53 AM
We have enough tweak/window-dressing mods! All of the mods that are coming out that only make small changes are doing nothing to expand the community. They are only serving to confuse those new to mod-playing. I've heard tons of people say that they hate playing mods. When I ask why, they say that all the mods do is change "stupid" stuff like their saber color, or make their model a midget or a giant, or that they add the completely unnecessary grappling hook.


You forget one thing: people like them. By that stament you basically say "All mods that do not change saber combat are useless". Different saber colors was a very requested feature before Tchouky began doing his mod. A very good mod at that. Scaling models? What about Yoda? It was necessary to get scaling working to make him into the game.

Grappling hooks? You say they are unnecessary. From the comments I got, I can say that people liked my mod. Even in the basic state that it was (I never intended originally it to be a true mod, rather a feature to prove that it was possible to do) people liked it. Even in SW universe (and I hate the blatant statements that JK2 mods need to follow the rules of that universe, and if they not, they are worthless/stupid/etc.) there are grappling hooks. Mercenaries use them. That's why in jediVmerc it was limited to mercs only. Because that was according to SW facts (if you can call science fiction a fact). No mod is worthless/unnecessary if people play it and love it. You have no permission to say that "mod A,B,C is useless". If you think it is, don't include the feature in your own mod.

Jah Warrior
09-10-2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by ArtifeX


This is exactly what I want to avoid in ProMod. This is way too much customizability for an admin to have. I would bet there are no two servers running this mod with the exact same settings. How are you supposed to formulate and practice a set of combat techniques when they'll work differently on every server you visit?
How are you supposed to get any better if you don't frequent the same server?

I can't imagine how frustrating this would be to new players. There are so many variables for them to grasp already. Throwing in one more variable for every single type of swing would make the learning curve extremely high for someone truly wanting to improve their skill level.

The worst part about it is that there's no way for them to realize what these variables are set at before they join. Even after they join they would have to play for some time before they could figure out what all the damages are set at (they'd have to allow themselves to be hit by the different swings and look at the resulting damage).

Ah man artifex,

You miss the point entirely. I know you will never agree. If you think that what people need is a common set of damage values why are they changed in promod?!?! OK I use Duel SE and will be for the forseeable future, simply because you can turn blue lunge into a strike that does its specified ammount of damage even including the draeded double hit.

Also why in promod did you take the easiest possible move :- red downward hack and make it a one hit kil, LMAO you are truly midguided or a lover of red stance to the extreme.

ultimately artifex your standpoint on this topis ic heavily biased nuff said...

ArtifeX
09-10-2002, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by ASk


You forget one thing: people like them. By that stament you basically say "All mods that do not change saber combat are useless"...


That's not what I'm saying at all. The idea that I was trying to get across was that the community doesn't need any more mods that do things like this. They've been done already. The modding community needs to focus on widening the gameplay options rather than tweaking things that have been done in other mods. The saber combat modifications of ProMod are only one example of that. There are innumerable other ways to enhance the fun of the game than by adding more cosmetic mods to the mix.

I actually think the customizable saber color mod that tchouky did adds significantly to the gameplay. It makes it very easy to tell one player from another from a distance when both players have the same or similar models. I actually plan to include something similar in one of my next releases. I would just hope that someone doesn't try to release a tchouky-saber-color++ mod.


...
Grappling hooks? You say they are unnecessary. From the comments I got, I can say that people liked my mod. Even in the basic state that it was (I never intended originally it to be a true mod, rather a feature to prove that it was possible to do) people liked it. Even in SW universe (and I hate the blatant statements that JK2 mods need to follow the rules of that universe, and if they not, they are worthless/stupid/etc.) there are grappling hooks. Mercenaries use them. That's why in jediVmerc it was limited to mercs only. Because that was according to SW facts (if you can call science fiction a fact).


I'll admit that the grappling hook comment was just my opinion. You can jump 20 meters straight up in this game, after all. That would just seem to make them unnecessary to me. Jedi vs. Merc I can see them being useful though.


No mod is worthless/unnecessary if people play it and love it. You have no permission to say that "mod A,B,C is useless". If you think it is, don't include the feature in your own mod.

Though i don't think anyone needs "permission" to speak their mind here, I wasn't calling anyone's mod "useless". I do think that the mod makers should take some responsibility for the mods they release, and decide whether their release will further confuse new players and water down the pool of jk2 mods.

Agen
09-10-2002, 12:14 PM
Personally i thought the hit damage in 1.04 was not bad, better when toned down but there's too many mods now, all different damage and there's no point in learning tactics unless you stick to one server.

ArtifeX
09-10-2002, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Jah Warrior


Ah man artifex,

You miss the point entirely. I know you will never agree. If you think that what people need is a common set of damage values why are they changed in promod?!?! OK I use Duel SE and will be for the forseeable future, simply because you can turn blue lunge into a strike that does its specified ammount of damage even including the draeded double hit.


Damages changed from what? 1.02? 1.03? 1.04? Damages have always been in a state of flux. ProMod's damage scale is just an attempt to bring them into balance. The blue stance's lunge swing damage only varies by about 5-10 points in ProMod, btw.


Also why in promod did you take the easiest possible move :- red downward hack and make it a one hit kil, LMAO you are truly midguided or a lover of red stance to the extreme.

ultimately artifex your standpoint on this topis ic heavily biased nuff said...

Actually, I haven't done anything to the red downward hack. It's always been capable of hitting twice since 1.02. It's just benefitting from the general damage boost I gave the entire red stance over 1.04. That swing is also nearly impossible to hit with in ProMod, as it will almost always strike the defenders saber before it hits their body. I actually had someone last night complaining that swing was too strong, so I asked them to hit me with it. They couldn't. They sure tried, but they couldn't hit me even once with it, let alone get a solid enough hit to strike twice.

Guess I'm in kinda an argumentative mood today. :)

Agen
09-10-2002, 12:55 PM
you jsut have to spring it on them and they're dead no prob.

Sith Maximus
09-10-2002, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by ArtifeX


I can't imagine how frustrating this would be to new players. There are so many variables for them to grasp already. Throwing in one more variable for every single type of swing would make the learning curve extremely high for someone truly wanting to improve their skill level.

The worst part about it is that there's no way for them to realize what these variables are set at before they join.

True a learning curve can happen from server to server and it does depend on the way that the server has been setup. But by playing a mod they should realize that it will not be a standard game in any way and they should ask what changes have been made.

Plus as far as style go...I do not change mine from game to game. I stick with what I know and use it to the best of my ability. All of the basic saber moves are the same from gametype to gametype.

As for new players myself or my co admin always asks if they know how to do the air lunge for example. If they do not we will show them. Heck I even let people kill me every night just to show them how things work.

Most people who visit me come back to play again becuase of the way I have it setup as well as the variations in gametypes. Some times its fun to be serious and other times its fun to just have fun.
I was on your server over the weekend and let me say that it was full of very unhelpfull people. They were running around overhead slashing each other over and over again. Better than 1.04 for sure but not any where near as fun for the AVERAGE gamer than a Jedimod or Jedplus server.

Games need variety thats for sure, look at Quake, UT or Halflife. These games survive and flourish with variety.

Jedimod was made for the crowd who wanted to "get jiggy" with a lightsaber or a destroyer saber. You get to taunt your attackers in all sorts of ways or just sit down and relax for a while. The fun is in the extras for most players. I duel my coadmin and a select core of players most nights. We take the game a little more serious than the others, but I want everyone to enjoy themselves.

You wanted a more difinitive combat style system, so you made it. And it is great for what it is. I have even upped my damage scales to make the saber fights more about skill and less about flair.

But all mods have their place. Next month Jedimod will prob be replaced by something else.

Heck If I were you I would get the Jedimod code and add in those saber colors you stated above as well as the scaling of the models.

I would say that would boost the mod popularity through the roof. Not all players are good, heck a great deal of them just plain suck. But they want to have fun and thats the bottom line.

Jah Warrior
09-10-2002, 02:39 PM
The only true fault with 1,04 is the fact that the blue lunge is capable of double hitting, 80 hp from a move that can be pulled off instantly if you time it right, that just aint right.

ArtifeX
09-10-2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Sith Maximus

...
I was on your server over the weekend and let me say that it was full of very unhelpfull people. They were running around overhead slashing each other over and over again. Better than 1.04 for sure but not any where near as fun for the AVERAGE gamer than a Jedimod or Jedplus server.
...


You must have been there with some players new to the mod. In practice, I've found that anyone repetitively doing any move gets beaten pretty handily by any of the regular players. Look for ZeroWingZero, FatalStrike, or Blind Moradin sometime in my server. I think you'll find that combat amongst the skilled is very different from what you experienced.

Just ask Zero how many times I've carved him up like a turkey with Blue stance. :)


Heck If I were you I would get the Jedimod code and add in those saber colors you stated above as well as the scaling of the models.

I would say that would boost the mod popularity through the roof. Not all players are good, heck a great deal of them just plain suck. But they want to have fun and thats the bottom line.

At some point I will be adding some more cosmetic details such as the RGB sabers (though it won't be Tchouky's), but I've been pretty vocal in my resistance to the model scaling idea. I haven't yet seen an implementation that handled this in a way that preserves game balance. The fact that 80% of the normally-scaled saber swing animations go over the head of the scaled-down Yoda model (sometimes even when ducking) makes this just too great of an advantage.

Sam
09-10-2002, 02:46 PM
nobodys at your server so Im really bored and have too much free time

Jah Warrior
09-10-2002, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by ArtifeX
Actually, I haven't done anything to the red downward hack. It's always been capable of hitting twice since 1.02. It's just benefitting from the general damage boost I gave the entire red stance over 1.04. That swing is also nearly impossible to hit with in ProMod, as it will almost always strike the defenders saber before it hits their body. I actually had someone last night complaining that swing was too strong, so I asked them to hit me with it. They couldn't. They sure tried, but they couldn't hit me even once with it, let alone get a solid enough hit to strike twice.

Guess I'm in kinda an argumentative mood today. :)

Man you aint swinging it right then, if you time it right for when the opponent is in an attack it will cut the poor sod in half, my main gripe with promod is that its far too easy. I actually had to pull the mod off my server because it got to the point where you can win sooo easily with an easy shot that people were winning 20-30 matches in a row (not naming names... ok it was me;) ) some people got the real hump because it had shuffled the deck so much.

Ultimately this may sound contradictory, but i really loved promod it was ingenious if flawed. I'll wait till its finished then give it another go, but in the mean time I cant put up with the bugs - turning dfas,lunges, running around during yellow finisher and spinning backstabs. may aswell go back to 1.03 LOL.

Anyways Artifex if you want someone who is a sceptic to test your mod rather than one of your fanclub let me know and you will get an honest appraisal of it rather than simply fawning to you. Damn this sounds pissy but hey I'm speaking my pissy little mind.

;)

razorace
09-10-2002, 04:03 PM
I suggest you guys go discuss ProMod in another thead. It's off topic here.

FatalStrike
09-10-2002, 04:15 PM
To Jah Warrior

The downward Red slash is SOOOOOO easy to avoid or counter that if you get hit with it, well then DIE!! It will take no time for people to actually anticipate it and make it damn near impossible to land. What is this nonsense that people win over and over. I've played Promod a lot and I NEVER get owned by that silly swing.

Also the turning DFA, yellow DFA, and spinning backstabs happen very rarely. They are still less of a bother then random blocking.

This is just my opinion, please don't go all apesh!t on me. I really don't understand why you are so anti-strong hits.



Also Razorace this topic is about JKII dieing and ProMod is one of the things breathing life back into it. Your constant anti-Promod attitude is starting to tick me off. If you don't want to read about it, skip the posts that cover it.

Sith Maximus
09-10-2002, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by ArtifeX


You must have been there with some players new to the mod. In practice, I've found that anyone repetitively doing any move gets beaten pretty handily by any of the regular players. Look for ZeroWingZero, FatalStrike, or Blind Moradin sometime in my server. I think you'll find that combat amongst the skilled is very different from what you experienced.



I shall do that, thanks.

Also I think you may have the wrong idea about the model cfg. Its nice to have a variety of sizes of players, just like in real life. Plus the fact some are faster and some are slower adds to the difficulty factor of the game.

Yoda may be small but he is wicked fast and quite hard to hit even for a std size player. In blue stance Yoda kicks some serious behind. On the other side the wookie has great reach, but is slowed down as well, just as in real life.

Your mod has made the combat somewhat more realistic than std JK2 so the addition of different model sizes should only improve the game.

Your welcome to come to Crazy Yoda to see what I mean. Dueling with a yoda is far different than with a wookie for the average player.

Oh just so we dont get slammed again.........

I LOVE RED STANCE. RED STANCE IS GOOD. RED STANCE MAKE ME WIN.:D

zerowingzero
09-10-2002, 05:59 PM
See the thing with blue stance... it was lag or H4x or something... Just like the 8/10 times i kick ArtifeX's ass on his server, jk ;)

Anyway i do see what Jah is saying, for the style of play on his server or maybe others, promod might seem a bit too fast but that's expected. The damage is up from 1.04 and at least in my oppinion it is best played in FF, even with heal and drain people still get killed, belive me.

As for other nf servers i've played, i never hear complaints, If you lose in Promod it IS your fault, it's not like playing roulette. If more people would get used to it (or stop saying "i like jedimod....just because...) i see good things for promod. Heh what would be cool is after the final version is released to make Raven push it as a new patch (as well as some models/maps) ;)

DeTRiTiC-iQ
09-10-2002, 07:42 PM
I think there should be one more patch. However I'm proposing a real patch, since 1.03 and 1.04 were effectively mods. I've been thinking about this for a while and I've got a pretty good list of changes I would like to see: (I have removed a few from this list because I felt they were based on personal bias and play approach)

1) Prevent Saber from blocking sniper shots aimed at feet, its far too easy for anyone to evade snipers simply by switching to saber. Especially since with the blocking animation, the saber doesn't even reach as far as the feet.

2) Fix the animation bugs associated with the various "throwables", purely aesthetic, but its rediculous that this is still present after TWO patches, despite being complained about with the original release.

3) Have the Toogle/Timed force power icons start flashing 5 seconds before they are due to turn off, this should make force managament a bit easier, especially in CTF where EVERYTHING is about timing.

4) Prevent the Toogle/Timed force power icons from being hidden when using the zoom mode of the disrupter, if there is a lot of firefighting around you its hard to tell if seeing has turned itself off.

5) Find some way to stop the Forcefield pickup from causing so much lag, it makes ANY game literally unplayable for anyone above about 100 ping.

6) Make it so that if you cancel dark rage early, the recovery time is proportionally less

7) Fix the bug that makes the red tint of dark rage remain for a few moments after respawning

8) Make the blue tint of Absorb a client-side option, using absorb makes it quite difficult to judge player colours, especially if people are using rage and absorb as well. Whose idea was it to make the Rage and Absorb colours the same as the team colours anyway? Do the same with the red tint of Rage

9) Put the speed and saber trails on/off option in the actual menu instead of just being a little-known cvar

10) Give the player choice over the crosshairs without having to use the console, its mentioned in the manual so I don't know why it was removed from the final version...

11) More netcode optimization, many people have said to me that the new protocol in 1.04 has made lag a lot worse

12) Make it possible to wall-walk whilst holding a gun. Neo does it in The Matrix, so why can't our Jedi?

13) Make Force Speed and Dark Rage less laggy, its practically impossible to use them reliably in any map featuring pits, if your ping is above about 150.

14) Put the option to use the simplified HUD in the menu too

You will note that any gameplay changes are generally quite minor, and there is nothing as drastic as the changes in 1.03/1.04

On the subject of reviews for maps, I heartily agree. Now for some good news, those who played the original JK may remember Hyperview, hosted by Jediknight.net. Well anyway, Hyperview is coming back quite soon (it already has LFN hosting), and the first reviews should also be available soon.

I think the real problem with the mods is that the editing community is so expansive, just from reading the mapping and coding forums, i've witnessed how hesistant people are to cooperate with each other... Originally I had hoped Massassi would draw some editors, especially with its flourishing showcase forums and screen-of-the-day system. This isn't the case (yet), but JediKnight2.net is far too broad a site, the editing forums get far too cluttered and its practically impossible to find any useful information since when i've asked for help the thread has been 3 pages back within a day.

Another problem with mods, is that people have no idea where to begin. I want to start coding for an MP project i've been planning, but i've yet to find a single tutorial on where to begin. We need REAL editing resources.

Homeboy
09-11-2002, 08:11 AM
I'm not sure if everyone heard the idea...

COMBINE PROMOD & JEDIMOD

Because I love both mods, and they do not interfere with each other. Even dual and bouble-bladed sabers go with promod if well balanced.

Jedimod is simply cool. Many people play it for this reason. Imagine playing Anakin dual saber vs Dooku or playing Yoda or Obi vs Maul.... This is what brings in new players.

Promod makes JK2 worth practicing. Without it you can't even count on your saber blocking - who knows if it'll block this time or not?

See the point? Jedimod brings in new players while promod keeps people playing. Now THIS can bring life into JK2.

For anyone "anti-promod" - it's still in beta it's not perfect, but the basic idea is right. Maybe it needs tweaking/ balancing whatever, it does (trying to do) something no other mod does that's making it competitive. I guess we can agree on this one?

Doctor Shaft
09-11-2002, 10:04 AM
ah, forget it

Sith Maximus
09-11-2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Homeboy
I'm not sure if everyone heard the idea...

COMBINE PROMOD & JEDIMOD

Because I love both mods, and they do not interfere with each other. Even dual and bouble-bladed sabers go with promod if well balanced.

Jedimod is simply cool. Many people play it for this reason. Imagine playing Anakin dual saber vs Dooku or playing Yoda or Obi vs Maul.... This is what brings in new players.

Promod makes JK2 worth practicing. Without it you can't even count on your saber blocking - who knows if it'll block this time or not?

See the point? Jedimod brings in new players while promod keeps people playing. Now THIS can bring life into JK2.

For anyone "anti-promod" - it's still in beta it's not perfect, but the basic idea is right. Maybe it needs tweaking/ balancing whatever, it does (trying to do) something no other mod does that's making it competitive. I guess we can agree on this one?

In a way I guess this is what I am saying too. I have upped my saber damage and skill through the roof on my server to make it more about skill than a random gereration of events, but alas it is not the exactness of promod.

But everytime I try to goto promod everyone either throws a fit or leaves, why? Because to the AVERGE player promod is just far too hard and they do not want to take the time to "relearn" tactics.

But I have upped the damages over the last two weeks to prepare them for my weekly running of promod. Perhaps in time they will come to see what it is really about.

Also maybe by then some of our comments and suggestions in blending these elements will come to pass. As a gamehost I could think of no mod that could or would be better than these two in combination.

ArtifeX
09-11-2002, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Sith Maximus
I shall do that, thanks.

Also I think you may have the wrong idea about the model cfg. Its nice to have a variety of sizes of players, just like in real life. Plus the fact some are faster and some are slower adds to the difficulty factor of the game.

Here's the deal with the model size thing:

When you play ProMod, most of your effort is expended maintaining a solid aiming lock on your target. The perfect "center" point that you're trying to get a bead on is right in the center of the player model. So if you're aiming at the opponent's head, your aim won't be quite as strong (by a small margin) as it would be if you aimed at their heart. Same goes for aiming at the feet.

If you make player model sizes variable, then you give yourself, as a developer, two choices. Do you:

1. Make the player model scaling client-side only and maintain the normal hit box for that player on the server, thus eliminating any advantage you get from having a smaller model, but forcing the attacking player to non-intuitively aim over/under the shortened/enlarged apparent center of mass.

or,

2. Make both the server and the client understand that the model is smaller, giving small models a big advantage to avoiding swings, and larger models a huge disadvantage to avoiding swings. The center of mass would be correctly rendered, but would require the player to adjust his aim up or down according to who he was fighting. This would give massive advantages to a smaller or larger player wading into a large saber FFA battle, because all the normal sized players already engaged with like-sized enemies would be aiming either too high or too low to have a strong CSC value.

Not to mention what would happen if a diminutive Yoda came across a towering Wookie in a saber battle. Yoda would have to aim nearly straight up as he came within range, and the Wookie would have to look straight down. With the way the camera works, looking up would give the Yoda player a bad case of tunnel vision just when they needed their peripheral vision the most.

Making small players fast and weak and large players slow and strong does nothing to address these.

Both methods have their problems. Believe me, I've thought about this a lot. I don't want to see ProMod servers full of players using the Yoda model because everyone knows they'll be hacked up by a mob of green-eared Lilliputians if they choose anything larger. The only way to not add a balance problem is to avoid adjustable scaling entirely.

razorace
09-11-2002, 03:20 PM
Very good points, ArtifeX. There's also the fact that animations/attacks weren't set up to attack targets that far off your torso swing height. If the animations were dynamic it would be much easier but that's behound the scope of the game engine.

ArtifeX
09-11-2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by razorace
Very good points, ArtifeX. There's also the fact that animations/attacks weren't set up to attack targets that far off your torso swing height. If the animations were dynamic it would be much easier but that's behound the scope of the game engine.

That's another great point. I forgot to mention that one. You can actually be looking completely level while ducked and do a Strong stance right+attack swing and go over the head of another ducked player if you're not careful.

Sith Maximus
09-11-2002, 04:18 PM
All good points to be sure.

I think you would have to have the center point of the model be just that, the center, reguardless of the player size. The larger players would have a higher center and the smaller players a lower one. You would have to adjust your aim in order to deal with the different size models. And if you lose out on some of your vision, so be it. Its the price you pay for the speed of the model.

The mod would have to be the one to state the size of the model. The player, or the server for that matter, should not have the ability to change model sizes. If you did that it would be a total mess. I do not allow the client to dictate size on my server...I did that a few times and it sucked bigtime. Nothing is more nuts than fighting a pint sized vader.

But say you went to three sizes. A small for yodas and the ugnaughts (0.6), then a mid size for the normal players (1.0), then a large size for vader and the wookies (as well as some others like jabba, etc) (1.25).

Then you would have three aiming variables. Also the head is harder to aim for but should be worth more damage than say center mass or the feet. I use the mod_skillmode in my Jedimod server and this setting does just that. If you go for the head the you can kill in one hit. You can use an overhead blow, lunge or a simple jumping saber swing, but the result is the same, you damage your head that much and your wearing a toe tag.

And yes larger slower players would be at a disadvantage against small yoda as far as getting major blows into the center mass of the target, but the same is true of yoda. You would just need more skill in this type of matchup.

The larger models would have a distinct advantage in an all out ffa match because of thier size, but it does balance out a little because of the speed reduction. Also I have fought many a yoda as a wookie or vader and I can still beat the crap out of them. Yes my attack stradegy is different, but thats the fun of it.

The whole point would be to offer a little more variety to gain a wider fan base for the mod. And yes skill adjustments would need to be made a lot more than it does now. But that is part of the challenge. As it is you have the same speed and size no matter who you are. The size changes add personality to the game as well as combat changes.

And you wuld never see a server full of yodas. I always have a very diverse crowd in my server, and in any Jedimod server. People like what they like and thats how they choose. I play as luke or the rebron master most of the time. Both are very close to std size. Very few people use a yoda all of the time. The novelty has worn off and now only the people who really want to be yoda choose him.

I think promod is quite realistic, much more so than any other mod or the original game itself. So add in the variety! When I use to kickbox or teah hand to hand combat in the Rangers you never could take the size of your opponent as a sign of how good the were. I had my butt kicked by some little guys in kickboxing, i am 6'4 225lbs, but i also kicked the crap out of guys way bigger than me in size and weight. Its not the size that matters but the tactics behind it.

Its your mod and you need to do it as you see fit, but the main reason people play Jedimod so much is the sheer variety of models, sizes, saber colors and the differences in the combat from reg JK2. Now I know you think the combat is the same, but trust me it is not even clos if you use all of the stances.

Thanks for listening to me and everyone about our opinions on your mod, and mods in general. I think we all want what is best for the players in the game.:D

Homeboy
09-11-2002, 11:44 PM
Personally I'd like to see different sizes. Yes, the size for each model should be stated by the mod. Otherwises it's completely chaos.

I'd like to suggest for the combined mod: When model scaling and purple/orange stances are not balanced yet, run two types of servers. Competitive ones don't support scaling and extra stances but support saber colors/hilts/same sized models; usual ones support everything while ArtifeX's choice 1 or 2 are both applicable. Then, as more and more extras are play tested and balanced and proven fair in competitions, these extras go into the competitive servers. In the end the two types of server would be the same. There should be one server variable in the mod to choose between the two types.

Just my 2 cents. Thanks for reading.

RamataKahn
09-12-2002, 09:50 AM
A game can't have much will to survive when it's been gutted like this one has.

Solo4114
09-13-2002, 04:16 PM
I'll tell you why I stopped playing the game. For starters, it was because I had a crappy internet connection over the summer. But more than that, regardless of the patches that came out and how they fixed/screwed up the game, I just got bored.

JK2 is fundamentally focused around DM or duels. Plain and simple. Don't believe me? Look at the CTF model they have. It's cursory at best. The maps are boring, and I haven't found many other maps out there for CTF that interest me. Plus, I was (and still am) a big fan of RTCW and other class-based team games. I don't particularly like the free-for-all aspect of DM. It bores me. Spawn, kill, die, spawn again. >yawn< I've got better things to do with my time. For me at least, even within the SW universe, DM is only fun for about 10 min. After that, it's just the same old crap.

Add to that the various problems in game design and balance of the MP component to this game, and the fact that it required patches to fix (and then patches to fix the patches), and you have the recipe for a dull and lifeless game.

I've enjoyed messing around with JediMod, but as has been said, none of these change MY fundamental problem with the game, which is that it's all about the individual, and not about teamwork. If they came out with some sort of class-based, objective-focused mod for JK2 (basically RTCW with SW characters, powers, and classes) then I think I'd be quite into the game. But as it is, the actual gameplay itself has very little to offer someone like me. And I suspect that, while I'm certainly not in the majority, there are a lot of players out there like myself.

razorace
09-13-2002, 04:21 PM
*cough* Saga gametype already implimented *cough*

zerowingzero
09-13-2002, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114


I've enjoyed messing around with JediMod, but as has been said, none of these change MY fundamental problem with the game, which is that it's all about the individual, and not about teamwork. If they came out with some sort of class-based, objective-focused mod for JK2 (basically RTCW with SW characters, powers, and classes) then I think I'd be quite into the game. But as it is, the actual gameplay itself has very little to offer someone like me. And I suspect that, while I'm certainly not in the majority, there are a lot of players out there like myself.


http://www.3dap.com/jediknight/jedifortress/ there is your class based game

Nobodi Kenobi
09-18-2002, 03:51 AM
I was reading the other "The Reason JKO is Dying Thread..."

But I always come back to this one because I believe Solo4114 actually is telling it like it is, even if a lot of JKO fans don't want to hear it.

In addition, I tried Promod on a server under a different name (the message board name is not the one I play under) and while it does improve a lot of aspects of the game, no offense Artifex, it's still the same old DM, Dueling, TDM as before and I don't think any Mod that doesn't fudementally change the game into something NEW -- New being the key word to keep older players and interest newer ones -- Is going to help this game survive or keep my interest in it.

In other words, as another player on another thread somewhere regarding the JO community and Mods, what JKO needs is its version of Counter-Strike.

Not the game itself of course, but a total conversion that deviates from the standard DM, CTF, TDM and Dueling which is primarily what JKO is geared toward like Solo4114 said... But COULD be doing so much more with in a lot of respects given the team-oriented nature of the SW universe (Bounty Hunters, Gangsters, Jedis, Sith, Imperials, Trade Federation, etc.).

Even though n practice CS people run around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to be Rambo and get the most kills per round, the core concept took the tired old game types of DM and TDM and turned it into something completely different based on the games original engine.

That's the kind of Mods JKO is desperately in need of right now.

Not fifty billion window dressings Mods that are currently out there (and coming :rolleyes: ).

That upcoming class-based, objective Mod is a good start.

What would be even better is if evolved into a less class based system so that team members could just be autonomous units (Bounty Hunters, Jedi, Sith, etc) and be equally matched if they wanted -- Kind of like CS -- So that if you are more into the Rambo type of gameplay, but want a more structured and objective based type of game other than CTF that would suit you just fine.

I mean, this is just merely a throw-away-suggestion since the Mod isn't even out yet... But it is thinking like this that the JKO Community needs to start thinking about if they want their game to continue to thrive and not just be a game that only a thousand or so people play.

I understand the goal is not to top other games in terms of players. That would be silly. But if you have a unique game type (Mod) that springs from an already popular game then chances are more people WILL play it, thus giving the game extended life for veteran players and newbies alike.

The other factor I wanted to touch on the very thing that Homosexual Ewok brought up in the other "Dying" thread is the attitudes of the players playing JKO and how a the way they treat newbies is often the main thing that drives away potential players who would have normally stayed and become part of the community.

A lot of us who play online games are NOT within the target demographic that originally was intended for the game... Even with the SW fanbase being so diverse.

Most games are aimed at the 13-25 year old age brackets. That's just fact.

But ironically, guess who is mostly playing online games?

People like myself who are in their late 20s and older (all the way up to 50s).

I'm bringing this up because obviously older players like myself are going to have and want somethnig different out of the games they play than someone younger than us.

I know for a fact that as I get older, I do want more team-oriented games and games that require using your wits as well as your weapons. JKO is just a "red-stance" spam fest thanks to Raven and to me, is very boring just like Solo4114 said which is I think why I mainly stopped playing (regardless of what Raven did or didn't do with their patches).

This is what I meant when I said it has no depth or skill to it in my previous post a few weeks ago.

In addition, DM (guns or sabers or both) is also very boring for someone like me because as you get older you DO lose some of your reflexes -- And more importantly, time to practice your moves as older players are holding full-time jobs, families and other real world, adult responsibilities versus the 13 year old who runs home from school and spends 5 hours a night honing their Blue Lunge because they don't have to worry about paying the rent, putting food on the table, etc.

I'm not trying to stereotype or depress anyone with these facts. I'm just stating the reality of the world outside online gaming.

The other factor about age and people playing the game is that the attitudes of younger players is 9 times out of 10 more geared toward competition and "owing" people to give themselves an ego boost whereas the older crowds are more toward "owing" people... But also RESPECTING them as well and just making sure everyone is having a good time because of... Maturity.

I realize I making broad generalizations and there are of course exceptions to every rule, but I think it is fair to say what I stated above is accurate as it pertains to online gaming in general. At least, it has been my personal experience, anyway.

Unfortunately, a lot of the younger and immature players (regardless of age) are the ones the new players meet, they get discouraged or pissed and decide the game isn't worth their time and leave. The sad part about all of this is that they weren't given the chance to even see if JKO is something they would like to be a part of, let alone be good at if given the time to develop their skills.

So. There are a lot of things to consider here and I hope everyone takes the time to do so as JKO may not be "dying" in teh strictest sense, but somethnig major is going to have to happen for it to be a game of any substance and staying power.

ArtifeX
09-18-2002, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Nobodi Kenobi
...In addition, I tried Promod on a server under a different name (the message board name is not the one I play under) and while it does improve a lot of aspects of the game, no offense Artifex, it's still the same old DM, Dueling, TDM as before and I don't think any Mod that doesn't fudementally change the game into something NEW -- New being the key word to keep older players and interest newer ones -- Is going to help this game survive or keep my interest in it.

...So. There are a lot of things to consider here and I hope everyone takes the time to do so as JKO may not be "dying" in teh strictest sense, but somethnig major is going to have to happen for it to be a game of any substance and staying power.

It's coming. Really, it is coming.

rfa_vasquez
09-19-2002, 07:33 PM
As the question says.Why do people think JK2 is dying????????????

MrYepp
09-19-2002, 10:13 PM
Because everyone that has a sane mind left

TheWhiteRaider
09-20-2002, 03:37 AM
I doubt it is. JK1 had a down point where it looked like it would die, but it bumped back up.

thehomicidalegg
09-20-2002, 04:11 AM
its cuz there is less and less servers now and servers are less congested than before, but,

Isn't there enough topic about this already?

D.L.
09-23-2002, 06:43 AM
Things are looking up. The AotCTC FMV shots look great and a few new models and maps (Mos Eisley Beta to be precise) have re-newed my interest. Good job!

|DEM|Mosleg
09-25-2002, 12:40 AM
You can never find decent servers anymore. That's why. You used to could go looking any time of the day and find a decent CTF, FFA, Duel, any server with a low ping that was full.

It's obvious JK2 is fading away...

Datheus
09-25-2002, 12:47 AM
Nay

That was the hype you saw

This isn't the death, this is the true community


All that full server crap were Star War fans who honestly, probably would rather watch the movie than play the game, either A.) Because they don't have the attention span for a game, or B.) The devleopers can just never please them

It had a bright start with lots of hype, I mean, look at the reviews, who WOULDN'T go buy this game, I haven't read one bad review for this game

It's just this game isn't for everyone, and people are starting to see that, and stop playing, and move to the next hyped up game

Lightsaberboy
09-25-2002, 01:22 AM
the only thing ive read that was bad about the game was in pc gamer june 2002 issue and they said that the first third of the single player campaign was really tedious, uninspring, and boring to go through, but that everything else in the single player was great once they got the lightsaebr. they ghave it a 91%, 3% lower than what they gave to jediknight1, and i actually agree with them.

Datheus
09-25-2002, 01:24 AM
Well, they said the same thing about JKI "Boring till you get the saber" I enjoyed the beginning third just as much as the rest, some of the puzzles were a bit confusing, but that had nothing to do with saber or no saber

It's really just an opinion about the game, I mean, if you bought the game for JUST the saber play, oh yea, don't even bother playing the first third of the SP, but I haven't bought a FPS in a while so I just bought it for the fun of shooting Stormies ^_^ I play the Kejim maps over and over, sometimes with and sometimes without the saber

Captain Hagen
09-25-2002, 04:26 AM
1. Story line in JK Dark Forces had much more. JKOutcast often became to much CS: open a door ? Hit a Key to open a door. To much puzzle, to little feeling..

Although I must admit that the graphic was superior to almost everything....

2.Difficulty
It's like reading a book, if the first page doesnt appeal to you, you wont read the book.
JK2 is difficult, it takes som time to master, CS has one dimension JK2 has 3

3. Too many games....
New game every day! see number 2

4 "This isn't the death, this is the true community " someone said?
Bur are there enough games for all communities????

5. Don't get me wrong I love JK2, but it is nothing for amateurs...( such as me)