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JerAir
08-29-2002, 07:27 PM
How much do you like it?

Kurgan
09-01-2002, 09:09 PM
I enjoyed Sp except for a few really annoying puzzles and some quibbles with the guns (too inaccurate and underpowered for the job they had to do).

Mp I enjoyed a LOT more and haven't had so much fun with an online FPS since UT and JK/MotS. The bots were pretty good too.

I would rate the SP portion above Elite Force, and slightly below JK/MotS. Even though the technology and AI were far advanced, the minor flaws mentioned above hampered the fun factor for me in several places. Once I got the saber and force (and got out of Nar Shaddaa) the game started to become really fun indeed.

The mods are excellent and getting better (as they should) with time. Multiplayer is where the game really shines (despite people's complaints about the changes in the patches and the so-called "cheap" moves, which I think are unwarranted whines in most cases).

MotS multiplayer just felt more varied in its options than JK2 multiplayer, but there's always the mod community. In SP I also miss the interactivity with the growing in the Force process that were present in JK and to a lesser extent MotS, but not JK2.

So not a perfect game, but really good overall.

<|DLS|>Darth Fett
09-08-2002, 07:12 PM
I f**king HATE BOTS, WHY WOULD ANYONE PLAY WITH THEM, I DID AT First but then i realalized that they suck. Its better to play online but there are some people that are complete *******s(im not sayin that cuz they beat me, I beat them)!! But the SP isnt that great. Too much goin back and forth, i find that sometimes i have to stop and quit the game then look at guide on the net so i can pass the ****in level. I still havent beaten the game :D , too much time playin MP. :fett:

TheWhiteRaider
09-09-2002, 03:35 AM
I liked the game. I was one of the people that got hooked on the first Dark Forces. I admit back then I stunk at shooters, but now it's become realy fun. The game has come a long way from what it used to be. From AI just dancing around and shooting peas at you(Just saying the AI wasn't the best in Dark Forces) to this. I admit there were somethings that could have been done to make this game better. But over all I give it a 4 out of 5.

Oh and Filler_Fett here are somethings bots are good for.

1. If you are a coder and need someone to test something on(like a weapon or stuff like that.) and can't get online(I just got back from Seattle and I was coding in the car with a laptop) Bots are great.

2.Great for slautering when you need a break or to tone your sharp shooting. Set them to easy TK-421s and let them have it!!:D :D

3. Just for messing around.

4. And some of us don't have fast Internet connections

I say that Human players are much more of a fight that bots and if I want a fight I'll look for human players, but bots still have uses.

Jedi Spy
09-09-2002, 05:25 AM
I think JK2 is one of the best games i have ever played, although i have just started recently i feel that the fun is endless (although we will see if its sustained over time)

To me it is a cross between quake3, max payne and a random starwars game :P which is great tbh.

The thing that it lacks which makes it my 2nd fav game is a mmoge (massive multiplayer online gaming environment) which games like ultima online and starwars galaxies have (not sure)

The game i rank about this is one called subspace (continuum) which is a free download game going for about 7 years but maybe thats just cos im rawly addicted, it was dropped by Virgin Interactive and is now fully player sufficient, the difference being there are sever zones (servers) all set up with a different gaming idea and if u join it there is always someone there to play and if u get bored of that then u can just join a different server :P

Although this doesnt make it the best game ever it can hardly be described as a flaw, as i dont see any company in their right mind funding servers like that for jk2 :P. Unless ofcourse we slip something into their tea

rfa_vasquez
09-09-2002, 08:29 AM
i dont like avp2 no more so JK2 has become my fave game

txa1265
09-09-2002, 10:20 AM
Within the first hour of playing JKII when I got is Apr5 for my birthday (36, if you care to know, and I got it from my kids) I immediately knew it would be on my top 10 list of all time. By the time I was half-way through Nar Shadda hideout, I knew it was top 5. Before I met Tavion, I knew it would be #1 or #2 (the other would be JK1/MotS).

I have never had a game take on such a life with me, and it is all about the saber and force powers. I've been playing since the *original* Castle Wolfenstein (i.e. not Wolf 3D) on an Apple ][, and am big into FPS games. I just really enjoy this game ...

Perfect? No. My Fave? Absolutely!

Mike

Jedi Spy
09-09-2002, 12:13 PM
yea i agree it will be alot of peoples favourite game but there is just something lacking it being an award winner :P i really think the mods help that tho

<|DLS|>Darth Fett
09-09-2002, 04:22 PM
Good point white rider..............................










I still hate bots though. :fett:

Kurgan
03-14-2003, 08:22 PM
Now that I realize that dismemberment actually WORKS in multiplayer (at least in the latest version) and some decent blood patches are out, I'm liking the MP game even more.

Bots aren't perfect and one thing that REALLY bugs me is that you can't give them orders to follow in team games (like you could in UT or Q3), which is really too bad.

Is it possible to make them accept saber challenges? That'd be nice too sometimes.

It seems like the Jedi Master (there's really no point setting them any lower) level bots are okay on Bespin (the most overplayed level) but everywhere else they're utter crap once you learn how to play the game, its true.

Hey, we all know bots can't match good human players, but they go far to spruce up otherwise small games. Like if you're playing with your one or two buddies and you don't just want fight alone.

It's now up to the mod community to get their act together and put decent bot waypoints in their user-made maps and release tweaked AI bots that are smarter. Heh.. that reminds me of how we all used to complain about the AI in JK... ; )

Kurgan
03-14-2003, 08:29 PM
You know, I don't want to diss anyone's hard work here either, but this reminds me of a little something that seems to have happened. The game's only been out a year, but it seems the majority of mods we've been getting have been maps geared towards saber only combat and skins (and decent ones at that) in addition to "I fixed the game/saber balance" type patches...

Even JK1 had more mods and gametypes. We had JKPong, JKQ*(qbert), Jediball, Detention Cell (Jailbreak), Burn the Witch, Tag, Blaster Tag, Paintball, coop, RPG, etc.

What do we have for JK2? Hydroball? The RPG? Many more are in the works, and it did take almost 3 years for the good stuff for JK1 to come out (remember all of those stupid "hacks" that we got in the early days? nobody understood the engine yet).

Oh well, maybe I'm expecting too much too fast and yes yes, I should just code the mods myself. ; )

I'll give it time. I guess with all the excellent models and dueling levels (all of that knowledge carried over from the Q3 and EliteForce mod communities) I got spoiled.

I won't say I'm burned out on JK2 (though one might get that impression from reading some of the posts in these forums). In fact, I'm enjoying the game more now than when I first began playing. Sure, the jittery sweaty-palms excitement of discovery is long gone, but once the dust has settled, I am enjoying it all the same, much like what happened to me with JK, which is a good thing.

Good luck guys, you've got your work cut out for you!

wassup
03-14-2003, 10:42 PM
excellent game with a good story, solid MP, and good community. Not the best I've ever played though (that would be Battlefield 1942...), and I'm sure not the best game ever.

Echuu Shen-Jon
03-15-2003, 09:14 AM
I really like it! It's great, but not the best game ever! ;)

Kurgan
03-15-2003, 11:54 AM
I would like the game a lot more if there were more Holocron FFA/Jedi Master/CTY servers up (not to mention more good quality CTF maps with bot support).

And if somebody came up with a way to give bots on your team orders...

hint, hint... ; )

Krayt Tion
03-15-2003, 11:46 PM
Someone needs to make a mod that pits Marrilyn [?] Manson against the Spice Girls. Then we will have arrived. ^_^

Kurgan
03-16-2003, 05:39 AM
*gets maniacal gleam in eyes*

Arán
03-18-2003, 03:54 PM
I liked the Multiplayer best!!:D

Solo4114
03-18-2003, 07:07 PM
SP:

Overall, I enjoyed SP. There were parts of it that were a little too jump oriented, and parts of it that were a little contrived in terms of puzzles, but overall, I found it to be a lot of fun. Never had any real complaints with the SP game, and I've played levels of it over again a number of times after beating the game.

MP:

Hmm.... To me, JO's MP was the game that should have been but wasn't. I've posted elsehwhere in more detail as to why this was, but I think that a large part of it was 1.) the game modes, 2.) the failure to create a real Star Wars feel to the game, and 3.) the bugs/patches.

The game modes had potential in terms of CTF/CTY, but as Kurgan has pointed out, finding good servers to play on was difficult. Add to that the fact that a lot of the CTF maps that the game shipped with were rather boring to me (and many servers never played anything but these maps), and you have a CTF community that's already hurting. CTF, as well as other game modes, was affected by the other two major problems, but I'll get into that later. Basically, my problem with the game in this aspect is that I find DM style intensely BORING. And when you strip away CTF and CTY, that's really all this game has: DM in a slightly modified from. I don't like that all that all that much, so I got bored with the game pretty quickly.

The game also failed in creating a real Star Wars feel to it. In one fashion, this was due to the types of weapons you had. Bouncing grenades and plasma balls of death just aren't Star Wars material to me. The game felt more like a Quake mod and less like a Star Wars game. In that sense, it failed to bring me into the environment on which the license is based. And when the rest of the gameplay isn't all that compelling (IE: standard DM stuff), that's ALL you have to rest on: the license. The sabre combat also contributed to the failure to pull me into the game. Sabre combat was flawed in each of its different incarnations, from 1.02 up to 1.04, and while those flaws might be subtle (I can only swing a sabre a particular way if I assign force powers?? WTF?) or even blatantly obvious (the most lethal move in the game is to turn your back to a guy THEN stab him??? WTF???), they all combined to make sabre combat just not feel like the way it should have felt, I think. Is it possible to create sabre combat that's totally faithful to the movies? Probably not, but I view that as more because it's just not possible to implement real life moves and the complexity of sword fighting in any particular fashion into a video game. That said, I'd be happy to suspend disbelief, if the combat felt at least MORE related to the films. I'm not going to get into how I'd have fixed things, but suffice to say, it could've been done MUCH differently and made MUCH more interesting in my book.

Finally, the patches botched as much as they fixed. In 1.02 there was hardly any sabre collision, and fights became more like jousting matches. Add to that the flaws with the DFA and you need yourself a patch. 1.03 fixed these aspects, but screwed up other aspects. The blocking became random, and the backstab was left in its flawed form (which no one ever bothered with, since they were too busy doing the DFA). This necessitated a patch, which came in the form of 1.04, which fixed the backstab, but nerfed the sabre to the point of being utterly useless. And that's just dealing with sabre damage. Guns and force powers were tweaked throughout the game too, fixing things but breaking others. In the last analysis, the patches screwed up some things and fixed other things. The end result was a game that in its final form, was still flawed, albeit in new and different ways from the form in which it was originally released.

I still have hope for this game, though. I've recently discovered the AOTC:TC project (yeah, yeah, I know it was going on for a while...I'd given up on the game up until VERY recently and didn't pay attention), which looks like it'll revolutionize JO multiplayer, and bring it back to its Star Wars roots. I'm hoping that, upon its release, enough people will get into the new mod that it will revitalize what, for me, has become a fairly ho-hum game. The license that Raven was dealign with had HUGE potential, but unfortunately, it was never met in the base game. Now it's the mod community's turn to try and save the game, and if they can't do it, no one can.

Prime
03-19-2003, 12:09 PM
I loved SP and liked MP a lot. I really don't have many big problems with this game. Sure there are a few little things that bug me, but that's going to happen with any game. I found it to be a great SW experience, which is what I was after. Also, the fact that the game is so customizable takes this game from good to great. I've made a big mod for SP that sets everything up just the way I want it. The fact that I am still playing this game since the day it came out speaks volumes...


Originally posted by Kurgan
Now that I realize that dismemberment actually WORKS in multiplayer (at least in the latest version) and some decent blood patches are out, I'm liking the MP game even more.

hhhmmm. Blood patches? What are these blood patches of which you speak? Can you direct me to them?

Kurgan
03-19-2003, 12:15 PM
I disagree.. I think that JK2 had MORE of a star wars "feel" to it than any game in the series prior (except maybe Dark Forces itself).

That doesn't mean the other games weren't good, just that the textures, sounds, and characters this time around made you feel more like you were "there." I could also say this about Elite Force.

However, I did kind of feel gyped with the dearth of skins we got in JK2. Basically all we got were the humanoids from single player. JK1 had at least a dozen skins that didn't appear in Single Player, and some more star wars universe characters (MotS was even better in this regard). MotS had Darth Vader, JK and MotS both had C3PO, Imperial Commandos and Mandalorians for example.

The guns were straight out of the Star Wars universe... just take a look at the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology... they are straight out of its pages (and those weapons are ones that have appeared in the EU books, comics, and the movies).

Only a few things were different... the "laser trip mines" we see in game look just like those bio scan emitter thingies and the "Mark Inquisitor Seeker Drone" we see in game is actually the Imperial Remote (the Seeker Drone looks rather different).

But I can see why they chose the Remote design, since that would be more familiar to fans who saw A New Hope.

The Flechette sounds like the explosives were supposed to burst into lethal shards rather than just blow up, but the primary fire seems accurate.

Also the Disruptor looks more elongated in the game, and I question whether or not it had the disintegration feature. But otherwise, pretty accurate overall in terms of design and implementation.

The "made up" stuff has to be put in someplace, because the films just didn't have that many hand weapons, other than your dime-a-dozen pistols, the E-11, thermal detonator (that was never used) and the lightsaber (and only four colors at that).

The same thing happened in Elite Force.... if you stuck to movie/show weapons, all you'd get would be a few different hand phasers and maybe photon grenades. So you make stuff up.

JK2 doesn't feel like Quake3 (though there are similarities.. but superficial ones), even if you take away the sabers and Force. The weapons are very different, and the overall feel of the game is different.

txa1265
03-19-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
I disagree.. I think that JK2 had MORE of a star wars "feel" to it than any game in the series prior (except maybe Dark Forces itself).

Absolutely agree ... it is to the point where, when I here some of the Dagobah cuts from TESB soundtrack, I think of where I was in the Yavin Swamp rather than the movie ...

JK2 doesn't feel like Quake3 (though there are similarities.. but superficial ones), even if you take away the sabers and Force. The weapons are very different, and the overall feel of the game is different. One of the lame, early criticisms in these boards of JKII was calling it a 'glorified Quake 3 Mod'. Sure it uses the engine, but that's about it ... I just never got that. I love lots of Q3-engine games ... even if it seems they have to struggle to add some things that are easier in Unreal engine games - but who cares.

So long as the game is fun ... and JKII was (and is).

Mike

Solo4114
03-19-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
The "made up" stuff has to be put in someplace, because the films just didn't have that many hand weapons, other than your dime-a-dozen pistols, the E-11, thermal detonator (that was never used) and the lightsaber (and only four colors at that).

The same thing happened in Elite Force.... if you stuck to movie/show weapons, all you'd get would be a few different hand phasers and maybe photon grenades. So you make stuff up.

JK2 doesn't feel like Quake3 (though there are similarities.. but superficial ones), even if you take away the sabers and Force. The weapons are very different, and the overall feel of the game is different.

I know that the guns are taken from the EU guides to weapons and such, and I suppose I don't mind including weapons besides blasters, but honestly, differently powered blasters, blasters that have different settings, blasters that do different jobs, that would've been just fine by me. Essentially, it wouldn't be all that different from what we have in the real world. You're pretty much limited to grenade launchers and projectile slug-throwing weapons, but these weapons differ considerably in operation, useful roles, and design. There could've been plenty of that in the game, but there wasn't.

As far as throwing in extra stuff, that was actually one of my gripes about Elite Force, too. In many ways, Elite Force, while fun to play in single player, really lacked any kind of Star Trek feel to it for multiplayer. That game too felt like a glorified Quake 3 mod to me. Now, I know folks out there disagree with this assessment, but I'm just saying how the game felt to me. I never felt like I was really playing the movies in EITHER game, at least as far as multiplayer was concerned. Instead, it felt like the guns were essentially taken from the EU books, but given the same relative functions as your basic ho-hum arsenal from any other FPS. You've got your rocket launchers, your flak guns, your machine guns, your grenade launchers, etc. Sure the projectiles may look different and behave slightly differently (IE: flak gun projectiles bounce around in this game, whereas in UT they explode on impact), but the end result felt to me like they were throwing in the same ubiquitous weapons that you see in all games. Elite Force had this same problem. In fact, if you look at Elite Force's weapons (from what I remember, really) they function in strikingly similar ways to the guns we got in JO, they just had different models.

It wasn't just the guns, though, it was the whole experience. The guns are easy to point out because, while they may jive with what the EU describes, they didn't feel like the films to me. There were other aspects as well such as lightsabre operation, the way the force played out, etc. In fact, I actually had similar issues with JK1, come to think of it. The single player was fun, but the multiplayer never really felt all that Star Wars to me either.

Maybe it's the game modes that got to me. Like I said, DM just seems like random pointless killing, which really reminds me of Quake games. I guess I was looking for more from a Star Wars game.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-19-2003, 02:57 PM
Solo4114 - I'm with you all the way...

Don't mean to shamlessly plug my mod, but it sounds like it might be of interest to you...

Movie Battles (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94813)

I must stress that this is still a beta at this stage - there are still some issues to sort out...

Jeff 42
03-19-2003, 07:42 PM
JO may not be perfect; it may even be far short of perfect. But I've had more fun playing it than any other game ever.

acdcfanbill
03-20-2003, 07:04 AM
Do my eyes decieve me, Krat Tion posted?! anyway, as to JK2, im loving it just as much as the day i started, well maybe not quite as much, but still, i play every day on the net, and i dont think i will ever burn out :D although it looks as if we wont be in for antother 5 yr haul before the next one tho :D

Kurgan
03-20-2003, 08:43 AM
KT? With a name change? Did I miss something?

Anway, I won't argue that there aren't similarities between EF and JK2 (made by the same team after all). For example the Heavy Repeater and the Scavenger Gun (EF) have similar firing modes (machine gun primary, concussive mortar secondary) and both games have a "disintegrator" gun (though it works quite differently in both games).

Many of the guns in JK2 don't match up perfectly with Q3, but they do match up fairly close with a myriad of other FPS games (Half Life, Serious Sam, Aliens Vs. Predator 2, Dark Forces series, Elite Force, etc). Some of the Force Powers in their current incarnations are similar in function to some of the Runes in Quake3 (holocron FFA comes to mind) but that still doesn't rule out the unique way they play out in the game.

The gameplay of EliteForce is very different than JK2, any way you look at it, as is the gameplay of Quake3. Take away the Force and Saber and it still is.

Deep down, it IS a "quake 3 mod" because it uses the same engine, but that doesn't mean the gameplay is the same, anymore than any other two FPS games.

JK2 is first and foremost an FPS, and that means that innovation is still shall we say, not that great. All FPS games share certain things in common. Mindless killing for one, lots of guns for another, and etc.

Deathmatch is the stable of multiplayer FPS games. I've never seen a satisfactory explanation of why you are fighting. Most games don't even bother. JK called it "Jedi Training" and UT and Q3 tried to portray it as a gladiator sport. Who cares? If you want a storyline, play single player, that's what its there for. Role playing mods get made, but until then, you have to settle for playing for points and skill.

Realism always takes a back seat to gameplay (in in so-called "realistic" games... usually "more realism" ends up meaning less fun and more tedium in the gaming world), so that means people move faster than normal, they do physical tasks that would be impossible for a normal person, like getting shot and living, or getting healed from plasma burns with just a few seconds of medical treatment from a magical first aid kit, ammo lying around to give you limitless firing abilities and your guns never jam or need maintenance. You come magically back to life after dying, with a new body no less, etc.

What sets JK2 apart from other shooters is primarily the lightsabers and force powers, both of which are part of the series, and part of the Star Wars feel. The thing to do would be to mistake the game for a Star Wars RPG.

JK got criticism for this, and MotS, and now JK2. Everybody wants it to be a Jedi Simulator or a Movie Simulator. The best we can hope for in that regard is Star Wars Galaxies and/or Knights of the Old Republic (at least in terms of EU roleplaying).

The essense of drama is conflict, and thus these games are pure conflict, and in a sense, pure drama. You can make up your own reasons why you're fighting, but the point is, you're pitted against your opponent in a battle of wits and reflexes.

Nobody cares why the Knights and Kings and Queens are fighting in Chess, because people have understood that its a game, and its about strategies of one person vs. another, not pretending each character is real and trying to play out their emotions and motivations.

For some, it seems the ideal Star Wars (note the "Wars" in there) game is an RPG. Personally, I'm more than happy with the various "unrealistic" and "incomplete" action scenarios we get with games like X-Wing Alliance and the Jedi Knight series. Popcorn games, for a saga of popcorn movies. ; )

I would have liked to see stuff like vehicles and maybe an experience system as options for Multiplayer as well as more AI interaction, but that's not something that FPSs are known for producing in multiplayer, but rather fast action competition between players and lots of explosions and gunplay. Maybe the mod community can help us out with some of this, but I wouldn't expect miracles.

Kurgan
03-20-2003, 08:46 AM
Sorry for getting off track on a rant.. ; )

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 09:32 AM
Some games are totally abstract and have no basis in reality. Their just based around gameplay (e.g. PacMan)

Some games are full on simulations. In fact, it's debatable whether these games should be called games at all. (e.g. Flight Simulator)

MOST games fall somewhere inbetween. i.e. they try and strike a balance between realism and gameplay.
I know of NO FPS which doesn't fall into this third catagory to some extent. i.e. you can't call it a simulation, and at the same time, you can't say it has no commonality with reality.

Personally, most of my favourite games have been those that try and get the balance EVEN between these two extremes. i.e. they try and get the game as realistic as nessesary WITHOUT sacrificing gameplay.
And - it's ESPECIALLY important if it's some kind of franchise. And even MORE important if it's a movie franchise.

My opinion on the standard JKII gameplay is that it's WAY over-balanced away from the realism-end of the scale. i.e. there is NO way in hell I can even try and pretend I'm playing out some scene from the movie while I'm playing MP JKII. I think if a game is based on movies, I think this should at least be an objective of the gameplay...

You can make the game more true to the movies without sacrificing gameplay... (which by the way is what I'm trying to do in my mod...)

I understand the points of view of people who say 'It does the job - it's an enjoyable game to play'. But surely you can see why some of us are being left a little bit cold and expecting a little bit more...?

And let's agree on one thing. The dev team didn't deliberatly leave out things like proper film-like objectives because they wanted to concentrate on the 'gameplay'!
They stuck with the formulaic game-tpyes because it was the option which could produce the MP game with the smallest man-power in the quickest time!!
That's not meant to be a dig at them. I'm a professional software devleloper myself. (Not games, but...). So I understand the reasoning. But let's just not fool ourselves as to why the MP game is the way it is...

txa1265
03-20-2003, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Some games are totally abstract and have no basis in reality.
...
MOST games fall somewhere inbetween. i.e. they try and strike a balance between realism and gameplay.
I know of NO FPS which doesn't fall into this third catagory
...

One thing with shooters - there is a variety of reality based games, where if you get hit you either die or are wounded in a real way - no healthkits, bacta tanks or other power-ups. I certainly don't want THAT for JK!

My opinion on the standard JKII gameplay is that it's WAY over-balanced away from the realism-end of the scale. i.e. there is NO way in hell I can even try and pretend I'm playing out some scene from the movie whil I'm playing MP JKII. I think if a game is based on movies, I think this should at least be an objective of the gameplay...
...
I understand the points of view of people who say 'It does the job - it's an enjoyable game to play'. But surely you can see why some of us are being left a little bit cold and expecting a little bit more...?

You appear to be mixing MP and SP, or perhaps only referring to MP. I say this because I find the SP element very 'movie-like'. To me, the only way a MP game could be like the movies is to develop an entirely new type of team oriented, objective based game. Not at all easy. I remember seeing stuff about different game-types in the November PC Gamer (2001) preview. The more standard ones got implemented, the hard stuff didn't.

And let's agree on one thing. The dev team didn't deliberatly leave out things like proper film-like objectives because they wanted to concentrate on the 'gameplay'!
They stuck with the formulaic game-tpyes because it was the option which could produce the MP game with the smallest man-power in the quickest time!!
That's not meant to be a dig at them. I'm a professional software devleloper myself. (Not games, but...). So I understand the reasoning. But let's just not fool ourselves as to why the MP game is the way it is...

I have to believe that the Single Player game was #1 priority for Raven / LEC. As well it should be. JKII as a SP game is a classic (if not groundbreaking) FPS. As for how this ties to the future, I think LEC needs to evaluate a couple of things - how important are SP and MP relative to one another (their view, not ours)? They made a ton of money on the game - it is still at full retail in many places while other FPS from last year are heavily discounted. But MP has its own draw - long term value.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 11:44 AM
I agree with everything you've said txa1265. I think we may enjoy different things in games though...

And yes - I was talking specifically about MP.
I agree, SP was closer to the feel of the movies than MP is. And yes, I'm sure it makes sense for the SP game to take priority over the MP game in some ways (heance the relative man-time applied to MP. As I say, I can understand it...)

However, none of these points affect my view about the MP game...

Prime
03-20-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
My opinion on the standard JKII gameplay is that it's WAY over-balanced away from the realism-end of the scale. i.e. there is NO way in hell I can even try and pretend I'm playing out some scene from the movie while I'm playing MP JKII. I think if a game is based on movies, I think this should at least be an objective of the gameplay...I agree that MP really isn't the way to get Star Wars immersion out of this game. SP is. But I think that it would be very difficult to get that immersion from MP, regardless of how you alter the gameplay. I mean, MP has all the elements: lightsabers, force powers, familiar locations, familiar skins and models. At least the duel game type should be pretty close to the movies. So why isn't it? To me, it is because you have to rely on other people to help create that immersion. The fact is that many (the majority?) of people playing are teenager l33t d00ds who just want to rack up frags. This will always be the case in MP FPSs. These players will destroy the SW feel that others seek. I mean, as soon as I am dueling against someone using the Lando or Mon Mothma skin, the feel is gone. No amount of gameplay restrictions will change this. As soon as someone says, "stop laming, you lightning whore" any resemblance to the movies is gone. This is why I have reservations about Star Wars Galaxies.

Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
You can make the game more true to the movies without sacrificing gameplay... (which by the way is what I'm trying to do in my mod...)But this is true. While I don't think that you can ultimately capture the full SW feel in MP, there are more things you could do to bring it closer.

Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
And let's agree on one thing. The dev team didn't deliberatly leave out things like proper film-like objectives because they wanted to concentrate on the 'gameplay'!
They stuck with the formulaic game-tpyes because it was the option which could produce the MP game with the smallest man-power in the quickest time!!
Also being a software designer, I agree that using the tried and true gametypes is easier than developing new ones. I don't believe that this is the only reason that they went with those gametypes. Another reason is that many people love these gametypes, and this the way they want MP to be. They are tried and true types because so many people have wanted to play them. Really, I think that including these types is a no-brainer from a sales standpoint. Maybe they could have added different types, but perhaps they felt they could provide the best MP by including the gametypes they did.

Spider AL
03-20-2003, 01:15 PM
Precisely Prime, MP never lends itself easily to character immersion, not even in RPGs. I remember back in the day I was on the Discworld MUD, and decided I'd use the same semi-archaic, semi-english middle-class speech and mannerisms as the characters from that series, in order to RPG properly.

Five thousand kiddies immediately said:

"D00d!!11 WH Y r U talkinG lik THAT??? TALK PROPERLT MOROORN!!!1"

Sigh. And that was a TEXT RPG. I shudder to think what SWG will be like for the poor souls who attempt to RPG in that RPG.

But an MP FPS is no place to look for any sort of RPG experience, that's simply the truth of the matter.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 01:27 PM
Prime,

Can't argue with that. The immersion factor does depend to an extent on the other players.

If it's just the chat stuff, I can ignore that. That's not such a problem - for me anyway.
And of course, I'm not suggesting you try and force people to act out Star Wars roles. That would just be staging an online play!!

I guess I would be happy if I was able to jump into the game and - assuming I was amongst the right group of like-minded players - suddenly be able to look back at the last 5 mins of play and go ' Wow - that felt just like that scene in the movie...'

I wouldn't expect every game I played to be like that -of course that's totally unrealistic. It might happen only 50% of the time - or even only 25% of the time - who knows. The main point is that it should be possible.
(Of course, it goes without saying that when I'm not feeling totally immersed, it's still a great game that I want to play anyway...)

I haven't played JKII MP once and been able to do that. In fact, I haven't gotten close...

Again, some people may look at what I've just written and go 'so what?! What's so good about that?'. All I can say is that's what makes a GREAT game for me...


About the reason for having the basic gametypes, there is evidence in the MP code that the dev team were working on an objective-oriented gametype to create more movie-like action - the SAGA gametype. From the looks of it, they actually went quite far with it.
But, it hasn't made it into the game.

Why?

Well, while of course it's possible that they suddenly reaslised that it would be so unpopular with JKII players that they couldn't spend one more man-minute developing it, I think it's far more likely that they just ran out of time before the release date, because they didn't have enough people working on the MP game.

I could be wrong. I don't know that, but it's gotta be the most likely reason by a long way...

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 01:42 PM
Spider AL,

You may be surprised to hear that I'm in the same boat as you as far as SWG is concerned...

I want to play a game where I want to be immersed in the Star Wars films...

That doesn't mean I want to sew baskets, learn to dance and braid my hair!

I want to shoot stormtroopers, slash dark Jedi's and fly around on a Jetpack like Boba Fett!

I just want it to feel as real as possible without good gameplay being forgotten...

Prime
03-20-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
If it's just the chat stuff, I can ignore that. That's not such a problem - for me anyway. As can I. This stuff doesn't really bother me. I was just saying that it certainly doesn't help the SW feel :)

Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
I guess I would be happy if I was able to jump into the game and - assuming I was amongst the right group of like-minded players - suddenly be able to look back at the last 5 mins of play and go ' Wow - that felt just like that scene in the movie...' I wish this was the way it was too. Unfortunately, it didn't work out this way. But luckily, I have an SP game to play that does help to supply that SW immersion when I want it.

Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Well, while of course it's possible that they suddenly realised that it would be so unpopular with JKII players that they couldn't spend one more man-minute developing it, I think it's far more likely that they just ran out of time before the release date, because they didn't have enough people working on the MP game.

I could be wrong. I don't know that, but it's gotta be the most likely reason by a long way... I'm sure this was really the case. Being in the software business, you will know that this is how decisions are often made. What I ment to say was that the reason why the old gametypes were left in was because they are still popular. Once they got the gameplay going on those, they probably ran out of time/money to develop unique gametypes. I didn't mean to imply that time and money had nothing to do with it.

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-20-2003, 02:40 PM
*damn*

I misread didn't as doesn't!!

Prime, if you saw my last post - disregard it. I misread you...! :)


I totally agree.

I think it's just a bit of a shame - because MP has possibilities that can't be realised in SP...

Rumor
03-20-2003, 03:04 PM
::waves at darth fett::

sup. check your email foo!!!

Prime
03-21-2003, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
*damn*

I misread didn't as doesn't!!

Prime, if you saw my last post - disregard it. I misread you...! :)


I totally agree.

I think it's just a bit of a shame - because MP has possibilities that can't be realised in SP...

No problemo! :)

And I certainly agree with your last point...

Kurgan
03-21-2003, 12:27 PM
It's true, unless you're talking about saber duels, the only possible way to make JK2 "jibe" with the "reality" of the Star Wars movies would be to either have full coop play (multiple human players completing the single player campaign together) or else rewrite it into a full fledged RPG (so you end up with Star Wars Galaxies or Knights of the Old Republic).


The primary goal of a FPS game is not to be a simulation, as you say, but rather to pack lots of action/thrills and shooting into a nice neat package. A few FPS games try to stretch that formula a little, but in the end, they all are fairly shallow and "dumbed down" compared to an RPG in terms of realism, simulation, immersion, character building, etc.

But if it isn't an RPG or a simulator, what other type of game is there? Is the only proper way to make a Star Wars game to make a sim/roleplayer?

JK2 never set out to be a Jedi Simulator, so it shouldn't be criticized when it fails to be one... that's what I'm saying. It does the job it sets out to do (though I admit the SP campaign could be better in spots) and its fun and it "feels" like Star Wars.

I don't see why JK2 has to meet this super high standard of Star Wars realism that isn't held up to any other Star Wars game that's been made. Heck, the X-Wing series is regarded as some of the best SW gaming period, yet its full of gross inaccuracies and slights to details, canon and continuity.


I don't see what else was expected of JK2, other than as one person said, only include weapons that were featured in the movies and have them only function as they did in the movies (which might have screwed over game balance in MP anyway).

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-21-2003, 01:09 PM
I would say the X-wing series is a really good case study of this topic...

It had good gameplay, fun to play - and you could tell the the developers had sat there and said 'Right - how can we really get the player to feel like their really flying an X-wing / Tie fighter - as if they were part of the movie'.

...that's the SP game.

..well, most of the time anyway. I think Tie Fighter got a bit much sometimes with the uber-ships they had in it...

I can see where you coming from about the MP game though. They never did work out how two online players should go about dog-fighting each-other. Most of the time, you ended coming straight at each-other, and then literally flying round in circles, somehow trying to get behind the other one.

An image of a dog trying to bite it's own tail is coming to my mind!! lol :)

But that was a fundemental flaw of the gameplay concept. That had nothing to do with the fact that the X-wing games tried to be immersive.

In short, X-wing MP had the opposite problem that - at least in my view - JKII MP has. Great immersion, but flawed (online) gameplay...

What I'm asking for in an MP game is both in equal amounts!

You seem to be saying this just isn't possible..

I would REALLY disupte that. It's a bit difficult - sure. You have to spend a lot of time thinking things through and designing your game really well. But it's certainly not impossible...

Full on co-op of the SP game or RPG are NOT the only possibilities - not at all!

And like I said earlier - I think Raven and LucasArts were perfectly capable of it - they just didn't make it a priority - for whatever reason...

Solo4114
03-21-2003, 02:06 PM
I'm not asking for a Star Wars sim. I doubt we'll even get that with SWG, especially with regards to sabre combat. There's really just no way to simulate sword fighting in a video game, given that, as opposed to guns where you point and "click", with a sword, you have to slash all over, can change grips, attack angles, etc. It's just too damn complex to ever even simulate.

That said, you can make sabre fighting and the rest of the game truer to the films, while at the same time, retaining the feel of the films.

The X-Wing games for the most part held true to the films and the feel of the films. I played them in MP doing the Co-op campaign in Balance of Power for XvT, and that was a blast. You had a storyline, a campaign, a real sense of purpose in fighting. Even if you were just dogfighting (which gets its name from how dogs will circle each other when fighting), it still felt pretty realistic and true to the films, even though things were changed.

JO just didn't really have that feel for me in any respect. The guns, the force powers, the sabres, etc. Granted, a BIG part of this is the jackasses that play online games, but that's just a truism of the gaming industry now, and we all have to accept that. Regardless, I still think that you can make games that are balanced, fun, AND true to the source material.

Hekx
03-21-2003, 02:31 PM
It's not perfect, and it's not terrible. It's slightly above average. ;)

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-21-2003, 02:35 PM
Solo4114,

I totally agree.

Well, I still stand by my opinion that X-wing games - online - weren't the best. I think it was just one of those concepts that is very difficult to work online. Yes, dogfighting involves circling each-other, but REAL dogfighting has gravity, air dynamics etc. You've also got the ground nearby to watch out for!

The space dogfighting in X-wing had none of those. So you literally were just circling around in empty space! It's different in SP, because the bot enemies didn't act like real players...

But I TOTALLY get what your saying about the good immersion stuff they had in the MP game. That stuff was very cool. It's just a shame that the concept at it's basic level didn't work for me - MP wise...

But JKII is a totally different story. I see no reason why you can't take the cool team-play and 'movie-realism' concepts, and apply them to the basic JKII game. In fact, that's pretty much exactly what I'm trying to do in my mod...

Kurgan
03-22-2003, 10:36 AM
That's the beauty of editing... don't like something, you can change it, or if something is missing you can add it in.

Now if only they'd release the SP SDK... oh well.

Incidentally, I like the DF series even more because it incorporates both the movie material AND the Expanded Universe into it. MotS was heavier on the EU material, while JK slapped on a heavy dose of the "movie touch" (with the eye candy mostly).

The complaints I've heard about the Xwing series aren't that they're not great games (they are) just that stuff doesn't jibe with canon (though later brain bugs creep into the Rogue Squadron tales, etc) like the size of certain Imperial ships, and the overall power of X-wings (X-wings can basically kill anything it seems).

I haven't played that much of the XWing series, but my argument (from the DF series) is that its really incredibly hard to do what you propose, to get it "right." Hundreds of games come out that don't meet expectations or fall flat for whatever reason. These days games (and innovation) are expensive risks, which is perhaps why we've only seen "incremental" improvements in the "depth" and "atmosphere" of these games (technological advancements alone don't guarentee good games).


I guess what we're saying in all this is that JK2 succeeds as a game, but doesn't quite live up to the higher standard set by "Star Wars fans" am I right (even though I consider myself one, just saying)?

Then again, as SW fans, we've been treated (unfortunately) to a lot of mediocre or just flat out bad games in the past few years (a slew of them between XWA and JK2). For me the relief was that JK2 is shaping up to be everything that Obi-Wan strived to be but ultimately wasn't (except that "Protect the Queen" mode.. now that would be something to see... give our editors time!).


Trek fans have even more to complain about though...

RenegadeOfPhunk
03-22-2003, 12:00 PM
Yeah Kurgan - I take your point.

'Either do, or do not'!

The MP team decide that they either go full on for a good, immersive experience (risky), or they go for a more QIII with force powers and sabers approach (not so risky).

I can understand that.

I would debate how difficult it really is to make an immersive game that is perfectly playable too though...

Harder yes.
Really hard...? I'm not so sure...

P.S. I've no doubt your a real SW fan, just as I am. :)

Solo4114
03-22-2003, 01:47 PM
Kurgan,

Yeah, I agree that there were aspects of the X-Wing games that were not true to canon, but a lot of that was due to the restrictions of the engines and hardware abilities at the time. IE: star destroyers were pretty small, when compared to their movie counterparts, but that was largely due to the fact that, until 3D hardware technology had progressed, drawing anything too large would choke your computer to death. Hell, I can remember flying the Death Star trench run in the original X-wing and having to turn down the detail pretty seriously, because too many polygons were killing my framerate. With DF, you probably couldn't do fully faithful things like include a sabre (though I ended up making a patch for that, replacing fist graphics with a sabre -- again, not a perfect match, due to the limitations of the engine at the time -- it was actually a pretty popular patch. Got around 15K downloads on AOL alone!), but that was acceptable at that point. JK1 was closer to the feel of the films, but again, lacked the immersive qualities due to the almost entirely DM focused gameplay out there. Though, at that point, CTF games were really just starting to take off.

With JK2, though, given the innovation we'd seen in other games, like RTCW, I had hoped for better MP gaming. As far as the SP went, I felt that was pretty true to the films, although there were certainly flaws there too. I could overlook the flaws, though, because the overall environment and immersion factor was pretty high in SP. With MP, though, due to the game modes that they chose to include and support (IE: FFA was supported FAR more heavily than CTF, just based on # of maps alone), you really lost that immersion factor. Even simple support of CTF with better designed bases would've helped (though, on its own, this wouldn't have done it).

Essentially, what I'm saying is that I'm willing to sacrifice faithfulness to the canon if the deviation still maintains a good "feel" to it and is fun to play. Unfortunately, JK2 didn't quite do that for me in terms of MP.

Renegade's points bring up interesting questions and concerns. The existence of the SAGA mode, even in a rudimentary form, indicates that we COULD have had some real innovation and immersion, but due to time and/or budget constraints, this mode wasn't developed. Instead, the devs went for what was tried and true, guaranteed to have a built-in fanbase, but ultimately, the same old stuff you see in ANY FPS (with the heavy focus on DM mode). Even the variations like Jedi Master or Holocron were simply tweaks to the existing DM style. I know a ton of people love this style of play, but I think there's a large group of folks out there who are now looking for something more. To me, it's much more exciting to play as part of a team where you're working towards a goal of some sort, even if that goal is just capturing a flag and returning it to your base. Running around shooting anything that moves, well, if I want that, I'll play SP.

What this suggests to me, though, is that LucasArts' timetable and requirements for the game were such that it likely dictated to some degree whether Raven would devote time to newer modes of gameplay. After all, we have to get those games out by X date in order to get a good quarterly report. It seems that, in many ways, the requirements of running a business impact on just how good your game is. That same business mentality also limits the amount of support you'll give to a game, once you've sold your predesignated # of copies. I dunno. It's rather disheartening in a lot of ways.

Kurgan
03-22-2003, 02:23 PM
This seems to be a problem with the FPS genre in general, and not just JK2. Is that a fair assumption?

The same old game modes, weapons, scenarios, and styles keep repeating in all the games, etc because they sell and because they're tried and true and familiar.

JK2's strength, as I've said over and over again, is the sabers and force. While this was fresh and new in JK1, it's old hat for many of us now. But the other stuff really isn't surprising, considering just about every FPS game has the same "problem."

Just look at recent FPS games compared to their predecessors, it's more like a spectrum of development. Precious little actually changes, beyond eye candy tech improvements and better AI.

Solo4114
03-22-2003, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
This seems to be a problem with the FPS genre in general, and not just JK2. Is that a fair assumption?

The same old game modes, weapons, scenarios, and styles keep repeating in all the games, etc because they sell and because they're tried and true and familiar.

JK2's strength, as I've said over and over again, is the sabers and force. While this was fresh and new in JK1, it's old hat for many of us now. But the other stuff really isn't surprising, considering just about every FPS game has the same "problem."

Just look at recent FPS games compared to their predecessors, it's more like a spectrum of development. Precious little actually changes, beyond eye candy tech improvements and better AI.

Exactly, Kurgan. And that's the problem in a nutshell. You have very little innovation across the board in FPS games in general. BF1942 and RTCW are about the most innovative games I've seen lately, but even they have problems.

When your game is fundamentally no different from the other games out there, and rests on its license to distinguish it (that license being implemented by force and sabres), then you'd better make DAMN sure that the licensed material evokes the underlying material to which it is supposed to refer.

With JK2, the entire game, out of the box, was old hat for the most part, with only graphical changes and new implementations for force powers and sabre control. But, even these aspects were flawed, and where some improved, others became even more problematic over time with the patches. Thus, considering the lack of innovation in the underlying gameplay, what was going to distinguish JK2 from the slew of other FPS games as well as its predecessor, was its ability to suck you into the gaming world and help create the feel that you're playing in that universe. When the design of the game failed in that respect (for me at least), the game lost all lustre for me. It became, in effect, just another ho-hum FPS deathmatch game. It didn't suck me in in terms of the environment, it didn't present me with any novel ways to play, and it boiled down to running around endlessly killing people with guns that were basically rehashes of UT and Q3 guns (even if they are named after Star Wars weapons and look somewhat like what you see in the Essential Guides). As far as the force and sabre combat went, the various design changes that were implemented fixed some stuff and horribly broke others. Ultimately, I was playing a game that never really FELT like Star Wars as far as these aspects of gameplay went.

If I wanted UT, I'd play UT. If I wanted Q3, I'd play that. I wanted Star Wars, and what I got just didn't feel like it. And since I don't really like deathmatch, and CTF was only marginally supported, this game was bound to fail eventually, at least in terms of MP.

Kurgan
03-23-2003, 09:02 AM
Just look at some of the reviews of Unreal2.. now I haven't played the game myself yet, but it doesn't sound like anything special.

Other than graphics anyway...

I imagine Doom3 will be a splash based on hype and the name alone, probably won't be that innovative.

Solo4114
03-23-2003, 10:16 AM
Yep. Same as Q4 will probably be. Most of the games that come out from ID are, in and of themselves, absolute crap. It's the underlying engines and their customizability that makes them succeed. Q3 had the same problem for me. Flashy graphics, boring gameplay, weak CTF mode. You can download all the models and such that you want, but if the game itself still just boils down to DM, I'll pass. Plus, Q3 always felt like it moved at the speed of a 5 year old hopped up on sugar cereal after having watched 7 straight hours of Saturday morning cartoons.

Prime
03-23-2003, 12:24 PM
They'll keep making them because people keep buying them hand over fist. I don't really play any other FPS, but as Kurgan said, doesn't the lightsaber and force powers already make this game one of the more unique FPSs? I mean, aren't most FPS just guns?

Solo4114
03-23-2003, 02:38 PM
Having swords and magical powers is somewhat unique to FPS games, because usually you're shooting. That said, if you're gonna put lightsabres in, put frickin' lightsabres in, don't put glowing whifflebats in. I'm all for including lightsabres in the game, but if you're going to do it, you have GOT to take the time to do it right the FIRST time. 1.2 had basically zero collision detection with the sabres so you'd swing and swing and never block. Plus, you had the DFA, which was buggy and ended up being spammed to death. 1.3 removed the threat of the DFA, but left it powerful (you just left yourself open if you missed). It also bumped up the blocking, but at the same time, it left in the backstab, so the game boiled down to doing one move over and over again. 1.4 fixed the backstab, but nerfed the sabres to the point where it took quite a few hits to kill a guy. At the same time, if that guy's got a gun, he can probably shoot you at close range quite a few times while you're flailing away, trying to kill him. Sabres should've been absolutely lethal, with ALL moves taking only one or two hits to kill, and the real difference in stances being their ability to defend better or attack better when used against a different stance.

As for the force, well, again, the implementation of the powers was such that people would spam one or two powers (IE: pull/push, kick, throw, lightning, etc.). To me, the force is supposed to SUPPLEMENT sabre combat, not take over for it. In that sense, the game failed in its implementation of the licensed property on which it was based.

Basically they catered to the status quo which, while people are perfectly happy to shell out their cash for, gets REALLY old for a lot of us. There are plenty of people on here who are still vocal and still support the game and find it fun. I imagine that there are a great number of people who either became bored with the game, were pissed at the various changes made, etc. and left the game.

So, to conclude a rather long and rambling post (but you guys should be used to that from me, by now), yeah, the sabre and force made the game different from most FPS games, but not in any way that made it SUPERIOR. It was still the same method of combat (deathmatch or variations on that style), and while it loosely referenced the films, it didn't really do so in a way that was all that much fun after the initial novelty wore off. For me, at least.

Kurgan
03-23-2003, 03:14 PM
Granted, the lightsaber is weaker than what is "realistic" in multiplayer (in SP its just about perfect.. the only people who can survive more than one direct hit have an official continuity supported reason.. ie: cortosis armor, heavy shields, etc) but there are still OPTIONS available to change that and the collision detection (ie: saberrealisticcombat for example).

The JK2 console and cfg files are very powerful, there is a lot you can do with the game right out of the box, and even after the patches. Now granted, the average player probably doesn't know a whole lot about 'em (especially if they haven't been exposed to any prior Q3 engine games), but the options are there and its not too hard to find out how to use them.

JK2 provides a TON of gameplay modes... though I grant you that about the only one that is novel to this game is Duel (some would say its just a Rocket Arena/Last Man Standing mod, but since most people play it with sabers only... its more like "Duel" mode in Rune:Halls of Valhalla).

Deathmatch is in every FPS game that has multiplayer, period.

Jedi Vs. Merc is a class based mod that can apply to any other game mode, but we've seen class based mods before in games like Half Life (team fortress classic) and mods like this have been made for just about every FPS game worth its salt anyway.

CTF is great fun but dates back to the days of Quake (of course its based on a real life game).

CTY is unique, but a mod of CTF after all.

Holocron FFA is a variation on Deathmatch, but its basically very similar to Runematch in the Quake series (especially Q3) and UT.

Lightsaber Only is unique, and the combat is far more complex than Rune, especially when you throw in Force Powers (which again, are far more complex than the Rune Powers in Rune).

Now, I admit, I would have liked to see more "different" gameplay modes, like some of the stuff that was proposed for Obi-Wan (Protect/Capture the Queen) and what we saw in MotS (KFY, and the player classes, there were four instead of just two).

More CTF maps would also have been great, as others have pointed out.

I am hoping that they do indeed make an expansion pack, and that they take a hint from MotS and go all out with it. I'm sure people who aren't happy with the game now, won't be won over by it, but it has the potential to remedy many of the oversights that those of us who do like the game, despite its few flaws, admit exist.

Kurgan
03-23-2003, 03:28 PM
Case in point, I haven't heard one innovative feature in either Unreal2 or Doom3, yet both games are being hyped as the second coming of FPS games. Every few years the same thing happens... the biggest "feature" of the new game is the graphics and the AI.

Now don't get me wrong, sometimes you get stuff like the deformable architecture in Red Faction (then the game quickly disapeared from the scene), the "stealth" element in Thief (that wasn't really a "Shooter" to begin with though) and many people gush over the System Shock games (though I can't say 'cause I haven't played 'em). JK was innovative with its complex (up to that point they were all just glorified fists) melee combat and force system (with the dark/lightside and the path and experience system from single player).

JK2's force system in SP was less complex in that your powers were pre-set based on the game (though people have complained how "silly" it was to get extra force stars for finding all the secrets in a map in JK1) and you couldn't choose what powers you wanted to be improved, or light/darkside choices or turning to the darkside based on killing civies. But I like it because it still provides more variety than your average FPS game, and the Star Wars universe (which I enjoy anyway) helps it too.

I will give the game developers credit... it takes a lot of work to come up with a good single player campaign with a coherent story, interesting characters, fun secrets, puzzles that are difficult but not too frustrating, good scripted events, quality cutscenes as rewards and to continue the story, etc and levels with decent architecture, atmosphere and balance. All so that people can play and beat the game in a day and never play it again! ; )

And on top of that making MP balanced and fun, with enough features to keep people coming back, and putting up with all the problems of people complaining and cheaters trying to ruin it for everyone, its no wonder so many games fail or get delayed.

Solo4114
03-23-2003, 09:02 PM
yeah, but really, I'd rather the game had been delayed for, say, three months, if they could've put in Saga gameplay. From what I understand, that was a gamplay mode where you played similar to RTCW, except that you played a SERIES of maps in which your actions on the last map would affect the progression of maps or how you'd play in the next map. Again, that's just my understanding based on some things I've read in here, so it may be utter horsecrap.

As for Unreal2, Doom3, etc. people will always be wooed at first by flashy graphics and improved AI, and indeed, that does help an SP game. I actually quite enjoyed the SP game here, because I felt that it reasonably captured the Star Wars experience. Also, as you got further along, the guns (which I still have a bit of a problem with) became less emphasized, and your use of force powers became more emphasized. Where the game broke down for me was the fact that a.) you can only replay Single Player so many times before you get bored and b.) when that happens and you turn to MP, the experience REALLY left something to be desired.

As for all games including DM style gameplay, that's not strictly true (RTCW out of the box didn't have this style originally -- I don't know if they ever released an expansion pack for that, but I'd heard somewhere that they did and added a game mode). That's not really the issue, though. All games release DM because, if all else fails, they know that people will still play it. But some games really support other modes like CTF. While CTF isn't all that innovative, nor are class based mods, it's really the way they go about implementing them that can be (IE: if Saga gameplay worked the way I described above, THAT would be REALLY innovative). Even so, if this game had not been that innovative, but had actively supported other gamestyles than DM more than they did (IE: more CTF/CTY support), it would've been much more fun for me. I'd still consider an expansion pack if they released one, but I'd be VERY wary about it and would wait probably a few months before buying it, to see if it was taking off, what people here said about it, etc.

See, that's the other thing. I don't trust gaming magazines or online publications anymore. I used to, but now it seems that they just hype up whatever game has been hyped already, and dump praise all over it. BF1942 is a great example. That game received it's fair share of hype prior to release, and when it was released, the reviewers glowed about how great it was that you could drive tanks and fly planes in an FPS. They also really glossed over some MAJOR problems with the game, pre-patching. It wasn't until 1.2 came out that I even bought the game, because I didn't trust that things would be fixed and I read between the lines when it came to the reviews. Plus, how good can a review be when you've only had a week to play the game? You'll get someone's intense first impression, but dammit, after shelling out my $40+, I want a game that I can play for at least a YEAR, not just a week. Jedi Outcast, once I finished the SP game, kept me hanging on for about a month or two before I became bored and fed up with it. Then 1.3 came out, I saw the fixes and was happy, until people discovered the exploit of the backstab, so I quit again after playing for a month. Then 1.4 came out, and I came back, only to find that the sabres were nerfed, and regardless, the underlying game modes were still boring old DM when you got down to it, so I left again (permanently) in about three weeks. That's not very good longevity in my book.

Kurgan
03-24-2003, 04:27 PM
That reminds me, I should play that Saga map, it looks cool.

I enjoyed MP far more than SP, mainly because the non-Saber play and the puzzles left much to be desired. The atmosphere was GREAT don't get me wrong, and I loved the storyline (despite what some have claimed about it being a ripoff of I, Jedi... at least it seemed to leave out some of the goofier ideas from that book) and characters.

Second of all the Force system in MP was far more complex and interesting, with the powers playing off each other, though I could have lived without the level of "nerfing" of drain and heal, but I guess Raven knows best...

Why didn't we get an automap in SP? Why did the IR goggles "suck" (for lack of a better word), and why didn't we get to use Seeing? Maybe it would have made the game easier, but I think they could have done it right... oh well.

SP was great for the recreational RPGer in me, MP was great for the action-gamer in me. Great game. Not perfect, but great.