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leXX
09-11-2002, 12:11 PM
My Grandad died a couple of days ago at the grand old age of 96, my Gran last year aged 95 and with it being 9/11 and everything, I have been thinking about death for the last few days. I've never really been afraid of dying but I certainly don't want to die and leave my family without me!

I am afraid however of dying by fire or drowning. When I go, I wan't to be peacefully in my sleep.

What are your thoughts on death?

I know it's a morbid subject so I apologise in advance if I am depressing anyone.

ShockV1.89
09-11-2002, 12:39 PM
I'm sorry to hear about your grandparents. Best wishes to you, keep your chin up.

I'd say I most fear death by fire and suffocation (drowning, etc...).

Death is... scary. Scary mostly because we have no real way of knowing what happens after you die. Some rely on religion to answer the question, but that never really worked for me. Not for death, anyway. But neither does science.

I guess, either way, dying brings you to one of two things: Some mystical afterlife, be it heaven, hell, paradise, nirvana, or whatever you wish to call it. (I suspect that, if it does exist, it's all the same thing (cept for hell) just under different names.)

If thats not the case, then it's an eternal sleep that never ends. And I, personaly, like sleeping. So thats not all that intimidating either.

I guess its the unknown that scares people (well, me) the most. No matter what anyone says, we simply can't know for sure....

My dying and leaving my family and friends without me scares me too. I went to my best friends funeral a little over a year ago, and it was agony. I dont want anyone to go through that on my behalf.

It's been on my mind as well, with the anniversary here and all. I worried about whether anything would happen and I wouldnt be able to say good bye to my girlfriend or family. I know, I'm just being paranoid, but thats me...

Scary stuff.

BlackDove
09-11-2002, 12:40 PM
I'd like to die in combat. And I ain't really afraid of death...besides if it was a bad thing, everyone wouldn't do it ;)

JrKASperov
09-11-2002, 12:43 PM
Death is the unknown, but I do not fear it, for I do not fear the unknown. I AM curious.

Clemme w/Stick
09-11-2002, 01:01 PM
Sorry about your grand parents....*snuff*

Well, I'm not afraid to die.....! We all have to die sometime anywayz, some ppl before others!

If I could choose one way to die in it would have to be.....in my sleep :rolleyes:

-Clemme

mima kake
09-11-2002, 01:14 PM
First of all I wish you and your fammily all the strenght you need lexx.
Losing some love ones Hurts Like hell.

I've lost a lot of relatives when I was verry young.(grand parents when i was 6 ucle's ant aunts a few years later)
And alot of them where terrible ways.(illness and drug abuse)
I've seen an college die by train accident.
And I almost died myself with a freaky explosion in a bakkery.
(I had alot of guardian angels that day)

But to me death is part of life.
And you have learn how to deal with it.
In any way.
Sound corny but life goes one.

Damn now i'm depressed

C'jais
09-11-2002, 01:25 PM
Gee.... When did the swamp become serious all of a sudden? :p

I think of death as feeling nothing - hard to imagine, but I think of it as the ultimate feeling, the ultimate freedom.

I would never want to go out while sleeping, then I "would miss out all that heavenly glory" that death is...

Darklighter
09-11-2002, 02:57 PM
I am really sorry leXX:(I know it's awful when something happens like this...I know, I've had so many family members pass away in the last 2 years:(...we have every right to feel bad, but after all it is the process of life...we're born, we live, we do the best we can, we die...it's life, and there isn't anything we can do about it...that's the whole idea of fate you know, you can't change it...

You know leXX I totally know what you mean...I mean I always think of death as feeling nothing too...just that I would not want to go in a way that would make my family and friends, and the ppl who loved me feel bad...that thought really disconcerts me...

Sivy
09-11-2002, 02:59 PM
sorry to hear about your granparents leXX, i never really knew my gradparents most of them die before i was born apart from my dad's dad who die when i was ten.

my only fear of death is that there is no after-life and you just no longer exist. i have the fear that the only thing wanting is an eternal black void.
i try to have belief that there is some sort of after-life and your sprit will continue to live on.

C'jais
09-11-2002, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by SivyB

my only fear of death is that there is no after-life and you just no longer exist. i have the fear that the only thing wanting is an eternal black void.
i try to have belief that there is some sort of after-life and your sprit will continue to live on.

A tempting fate, and one I can very well relate to, but I envision that once you've tasted this "nothingness", this removal of all desires, you'll never ever want to go back. You'll won't be there to appreciate all this, but then again - that is what makes it that more logical and luring.

Sorry if I come across as a blackened, pessimistic individual, but I simply can't see the logical explanation to why I've been put into this existence... To entertain all of you? To entertain myself?

NerfYoda
09-11-2002, 03:10 PM
Lexx: My condolences on the loss of your grandfather. :(

If death teaches us anything its that life is prescious and altogether too short. We should use the time we have here to live full and fruitful lives, and try to make the lives of those around us better.

Sivy
09-11-2002, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by cjais


A tempting fate, and one I can very well relate to, but I envision that once you've tasted this "nothingness", this removal of all desires, you'll never ever want to go back. You'll won't be there to appreciate all this, but then again - that is what makes it that more logical and luring.



isn’t that a contradiction in terms?
you desire to have no desire.


wouldn't you want to keep your memories, to know that you once lived?

C'jais
09-11-2002, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by SivyB


isn’t that a contradiction in terms?
you desire to have no desire.


wouldn't you want to keep your memories, to know that you once lived?

Good observation -

1. yes.

2. no

ZBomber
09-11-2002, 03:31 PM
LeXX, I will keep your grnadparents in my prayers. Along with ewveryone else ahs died 1 year ago. :(

-[MotU]-Lyger|=-
09-11-2002, 03:45 PM
ya kno i F-in hate this day(9/11) sooooo f-cking stupid. i kno I am not going to die, because of some stupid date. + its pontless to worry about death, cause thats all you think about and you dont think about your actual life. real stupid to be worrying about death if you ask me, live in the moment, not the past or the future.

Darth-Nasty
09-11-2002, 03:50 PM
first all i'm gonna echo what everyone else has said and offer my symapthies bout your grandparents lexx

however about death for some reason im not scared of it at all
and its not cos i'm a religious person who reckons there is something better, in fact im quite the opposite.

i just no its gonna happen whatever it is. and worring about it aint gonna change that it will

i only worry about things that might happen
things that will happen cant be changed so they arent worth the worry:)


I think everyone in the thread needs something trivial to lift thier spirits on a day like this with a thread like this
so as a lighthearted way of cheering people up here is a picture of gary coleman and david hasselhoff

http://www.burnitblue.com/l/other/garycoleman/whatchootalkinbout_main.jpg

look how happy they are.:)

lets all try and be in a happy mood for the rest of the day
after all we've got lots to be happy about:)

Agen
09-11-2002, 04:05 PM
I'll also keep your grandparents in my prayers.

This sentence says too things.

XERXES
09-11-2002, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by =SSC=Kal-El
I'd like to die in combat. And I ain't really afraid of death...besides if it was a bad thing, everyone wouldn't do it ;)

why would you want to die in combat and be shiped home in a box. Or rather have your enemies take your body mutilate it and display it as a symbol of their hatred for america. Or even being shot in the leg with 7.62 ammo (the ammo AK-47 uses, is much larger than the standard NATO round) and bleeding to death. etc etc etc...i can go on and on and on because i have studied and read about war in detail in war history classes. Dying in combat...ugh it would be the last thing id want to happen to me.

some people i know that mention that they would like to die in combat...usually i tell them "why do you think it would be 'cool' to die in combat??" Sure most movies make combat look 'cool' or whatever. But in reality, it is horrid. Ive read memoirs of ex soldiers from vietnam, ww2, korean war. And what they talk about is literally scarry as s***. Makes you not wana be involved in combat or war.

Most of the stories all they can keep their mind on is staying alive, they carry items with them (meaningless items to us) but they have a very significant meanings to the soldiers. For example ive read about a soldier who always had this smooth stone from the ocean shore he would keep in his mouth. Another one carried panty hose around his neck for good luck(and ironically he never even got hurt during his tour of duty). And whevnever one of their comrades died, theyd joke around about it to keep them sane.

But in the case of vietnam, a LOT of soldiers wanted only to die because they knew when the get home that the anti-war protestors would hate them. They had no "coming home celebration" like the ww2 people got, there was nothing to look foward to afterwards. Nam was a very unpopular war, ive read many many soldiers shooting themselves (in the foot or something) purposely so they could get out of that hellhole.

This is just my opinion, but I think it is a little ignorant for a person to say "I'd like to die in combat" I think this way because of the way some movies portray combat and war. They show heroes and people triumphantly winning glorious battles They show movies that way because we want to watch people succeed. We as humans like to have heroes, so that is why movies are that way. But from what ive read, its a lot different, similar, but very different.

This was not intended to offend, it is not a flame or an attack against you. Im just stating some opinions.

Personally id like to die of old age in my sleep or something along those lines. That doesnt mean my life would have been boring.

whitedragon
09-11-2002, 04:28 PM
im sorry to hear that lexx :(

i would say something about them being in a better place but i dont know if you beleave in God or not

Agen
09-11-2002, 04:28 PM
I would like to die in my sleep anytime, never war. I expected kal to sya that anyway.

XERXES
09-11-2002, 04:28 PM
and if your too lazy to read it, then dont post about how "oh damn i didnt wana read an essay" i took my time to write that. And it is rather quite interesting. If you guys wana know some of the books ive read PM me.

Clem
09-11-2002, 04:29 PM
Firstly again my condolences lexx ... but both your grandparents had good long lives ... longer than many ... thats something to be thankful

i myself do not like my life ... and relish the fact that when i die .... nothing .... i will not know there is nothing ... cos my brain will no longer function. the only part of death that i DREAD is the idea of another 80 years of this

XERXES
09-11-2002, 04:31 PM
and lexx, i send you my deepest sorrow. Ive had to deal with my grandparents dying 4 years ago. And not even 4 months ago 3 of my closest friends all died in a car accident i was supposed to be in. If you really want to talk about it PM me or something, im here.

lsd|Wee Bitch
09-11-2002, 04:39 PM
I believe in God so I too will keep you and your family in me prayers. As for death, it's never scared me. What scraes me is becoming a vegetable or a quadrapalegic. I just take everything day by day. If I die today, oh well. If not, that's spiffy too.

To comment on what cjais said, if there is no afterlife, we cease to exist after our body dies. We won't feel anything because we are no more, so desires wouldn't exist nor would a taste of nothingness. So there would be no black void no memories, no spirit to survive. Nothing. That's depressing. Isn't it more interesting to at least have a hope of an afterlife? Not saying you don't believe that, but just a thought.

Clem
09-11-2002, 04:43 PM
the afterlife is comforting for people who like their lives

for people who dont like them .... the thought of eternity ... is $%^£%$^ SCARY

Mandalorian54
09-11-2002, 05:00 PM
I think dying in war deponds on how you die, if you get sniped it's not exactly honerable exept that if you didn't someone else probably would just have been in your place so it kind of is, and dying for your country is honorable. There are more honerable deaths in wars though like sacrificing yourself for your teamates, you know...

But I must say I'm a christian so if you die you will go to heven or hell but I don't suspect any of believe in that.

XERXES
09-11-2002, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
I think dying in war deponds on how you die, if you get sniped it's not exactly honerable exept that if you didn't someone else probably would just have been in your place so it kind of is, and dying for your country is honorable. There are more honerable deaths in wars though like sacrificing yourself for your teamates, you know...

But I must say I'm a christian so if you die you will go to heven or hell but I don't suspect any of believe in that.
yea i see where your coming from. But from what ive read, i dont even wana go into war. heh.

Clem
09-11-2002, 05:13 PM
dying in war is honourable

surviving a war having fought for ur country is more so i feel

C'jais
09-11-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by lsd|Wee Bitch
I believe in God so I too will keep you and your family in me prayers. As for death, it's never scared me. What scraes me is becoming a vegetable or a quadrapalegic. I just take everything day by day. If I die today, oh well. If not, that's spiffy too.

To comment on what cjais said, if there is no afterlife, we cease to exist after our body dies. We won't feel anything because we are no more, so desires wouldn't exist nor would a taste of nothingness. So there would be no black void no memories, no spirit to survive. Nothing. That's depressing. Isn't it more interesting to at least have a hope of an afterlife? Not saying you don't believe that, but just a thought.

Yes Wee B*tch (what kinda name is that anyway? :D), it is depressing in a way I agree... but only in the present you are in now.

Okay, to take the buddhistic approach, you could say that your happiness, your entire love of life, depends solely on having your constant desires fulfilled. When those desires aren't fulfilled we become unhappy - isn't that sorta depressing too? :(

What you "desire" is to have an afterlife, but what I desire is to turn to nothing, to extinquish those desires and escape meaning, anger and... suffering....

Aight, this is getting to Yodastic and Buddhistic for me to take, and I apologize if I've offended any buddhists in here with that jibberish I just wrote...

I've had a bad day, that's all....

obi
09-11-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by -[MotU]-Lyger|=-
ya kno i F-in hate this day(9/11) sooooo f-cking stupid. i kno I am not going to die, because of some stupid date. + its pontless to worry about death, cause thats all you think about and you dont think about your actual life. real stupid to be worrying about death if you ask me, live in the moment, not the past or the future.

wow, someone ate a bowl of Jackass for breakfast.........


Hey leXX, sorry to hear about your grand-pappy. :(

Here's my take on death:

Death is not 'the end,' but rather, 'a new beginning.'

I think when your body "dies," your spirit moves onto whatever God has in store for you. ;)

Good luck on this issue, leXX.

;)

Camus
09-11-2002, 05:29 PM
Thight might lighten your mood... :D


"Jeffrey: When I die, I want to go like my Grandfather did, Peacefully in his sleep. Not yelling and screaming like all the passengers in his car."

Jaster_Mareel
09-11-2002, 05:33 PM
Even if you don't believe in God there's still some pretty comforting things in the Bible. You may wan't to read it if you have one. Death is usualy when people turn to God but some times it's when people turn away if you know what I mean.

Ooops I accidently logged in as the wrong person oh well.

C'jais
09-11-2002, 05:39 PM
I feel like sh*t for saying this but...

My grandfather passed away 4 years ago....

ANd I didn't feel anything at all... I only cried in church because everyone else was doing it - very emotional scene.

I think it was because I never got to know him very well - I think I'm gonna cry like a little baby when my dog dies some day...

My two cousins who also were at the church didn't cry either - I guess it must be a Danish thing :(

whitedragon
09-11-2002, 06:00 PM
i am reminded of a quote from stephen kings desperation "yes God i very crule because he lets us live"

Agen
09-11-2002, 06:03 PM
But if he didn't then there would be nothing better than anything else or desires which are fulfilled or anything at all. Just a point.

rfa_vasquez
09-11-2002, 06:07 PM
if i go i want it to be without me suffering.like i dont wanna be shot and then take all the pain then go

Absurd
09-11-2002, 06:09 PM
About 10 years ago my 'best friend' killed himself.

That's when I stopped taking death and friendships so seriously.

Agen
09-11-2002, 06:38 PM
The moody-man's story unveils now eh? :(

whitedragon
09-11-2002, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Absurd
About 10 years ago my 'best friend' killed himself.

That's when I stopped taking death and friendships so seriously.
im sorry to hear that :(

gorganfloss
09-11-2002, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Absurd
About 10 years ago my 'best friend' killed himself.

That's when I stopped taking death and friendships so seriously.
Whoa...




Well I kinda want to die (not now) so I can see what happens afterwards, if you get to float around as an apparition and all that suff.

Tyrion
09-11-2002, 07:15 PM
Sorry to hear about your grandparents,were you close to them Lexx?

Anyhoo..I've decided not to think about death much. If you do,you lead a unhappy life and thus everythin becomes depressing... but I do wonder.

Like I killed a bee today in PE,we were improving our locking skills(I.E. making sure we all knew how to unlock locks) and a bee came towards me. I tried to hit it once with a lock,to protect myself. So I got it,but it didnt die.I hit it again,and it still didnt die.The 2 of my friends watched it,both wanting em to kill it. I saw the bee grasping painfully for life,then my friend squashed it one last time. I felt pretty awful...

But death is kinda wierd. If we have souls,we know we go somewhere. Maybe to heaven,maybe to another dimension,heck maybe just feel "conscience" in the universe...But we could be just lots of brain cells,just fooling ourselves into thinking we are alive when we really not,so we never die...but we never lived...


When you cant go to any of your friends how during summer,and the swamp is quiet,you get quite philoshophical...

whitedragon
09-11-2002, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by gorganfloss

Whoa...




Well I kinda want to die (not now) so I can see what happens afterwards, if you get to float around as an apparition and all that suff.
well not exactly :rolleyes:

gorganfloss
09-11-2002, 07:35 PM
When I get philosophical, people I know on other chat-room thingys say Im "deep".:p

Absurd
09-11-2002, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by gorganfloss

Well I kinda want to die (not now) so I can see what happens afterwards, if you get to float around as an apparition and all that suff.

You might find this entertaining - saw this on another forum:

"Viola! Instant God Experience!

Dr. Michael Persinger, working at Laurentian University, in Sudbury, Ontario, Canada, has pioneered a method for inducing the religious, spiritual experience of the shaman. Without drugs, herbs, hypnosis or invasive surgery, he can quite literally flip a switch and induce the experience of "god."
Using an ordinary striped yellow motorcycle helmet purchased at a sporting goods store, which he has modified with electromagnetic coils, he can place the helmet on your head, connect the wires to a device he has constructed that generates the proper signals, and when the magnetic fields produced by the coils penetrate the skull and into the temporal lobes of the brain, the result is the stimulation of those lobes and a religious experience results.

In common with the Hindu view that a confrontation with God is a confrontation with the self, the nine-hundred plus people who have undertaken the experience produced by Dr. Persinger's helmet have had some very profound experiences. Four out of five say that they've had experiences so profound they would be life-changing had they not understood the mechanistic underpinnings of what they had experienced.

How does Dr. Persinger's helmet work? It works by inducing very small electrical signals with tiny magnetically induced mechanical vibrations in the brain cells of the temporal lobes and other selected areas of the brain, located in the skull just above and forward of the ears. These lobes are the portions of the brain that produce the "Forty Hertz Component" of the brainwaves detected in electroencephalograms. These mysterious "forty hertz components" are present whenever you are awake or when you are in REM sleep. They are absent during deep, dreamless sleep. What the "forty hertz component" does is not well understood, but we know that it is always present during the experience of "self." We cannot have a "me" experience without the forty hertz component being present.

What this means is that the forty hertz component is essential to our experience of self. We cannot experience our sense of individuality without it. It stands to reason, then, that if the forty hertz component could somehow be suppressed, the sense of individuality would be suppressed with it, and indeed, this is what Dr. Persinger's helmet does. It turns off the forty hertz component and with it the sense of individuality which your brain uses to define "self" as opposed to "rest of the world."

When the brain is deprived of the self stimulation and sensory input that is required for it to define itself as being distinct from the rest of the world, the brain 'defaults' to a sense of infinity. The sense of self expands to fill whatever the brain can sense, and what it senses is the world, so the experience of the self simply expands to fill the perception of the world itself. One experiences becoming "one with the universe."

But What About the God Experience?

There are two temporal lobes in the brain, one on each side. The one on the left, in most people, is the dominant one, responsible for language, which becomes dominant when we first learn language as children. The one on the right, non-dominant, contributes to the sense of self with constant communication with its opposite colleague. But being on the far side of the brain, sometimes the communications get out of whack, often as a result of stress or disease, and the forty hertz component falls out of sync. When this happens, the result is that the normally silent right-hand sense of self becomes experienced as a separate presence by the left-hand sense of self.
This is the experience of the God presence. There is an overwhelming sense of presence, an inescapable feeling that someone is there. But when the forty hertz component is deeply attenuated or entirely absent from, say, the left side, and there's no "self" experience occurring, the feeling of unity with infinity is occuring with a sense of an overwhelming presence resulting from the continued operation of the right hand side, there is no way to describe it other than feeling that one has experienced the "infinite presence." Hence the God experience.

All of this has been verified not only experimentally with Dr. Persinger's helmet, but by use of high-tech brain scanning machines similar to the CAT and MRI scanners that many of us have experienced.

And The Sense of Timelessness and Spacelessness in Prayer and Meditation?

Many deeply experienced meditators feel, when deep in meditation, an experience of transcendance of the here and now. They feel a sense of being outside of time and space. How is this experience produced?

Two researchers, Andrew Newberg and Eugene D’Aquili, have taken a particular interest in these experiences. Through the use of a brain-scanning technique called SPECT (Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography), they have determined how these experiences arise. The researchers have produced images of the brains of Tibetan Buddhists who undergo deep, profound meditative experiences as the result of years of practice. They have done the same with a Catholic Franciscan nun, who, after 45 minutes of deep prayer, had her brain scanned to determine what centers were active and what centers were not.

The results show that in both cases, the pre-frontal cortex, which controls attention, is highly stimulated. This is not surprising - meditation requires a great deal of concentration. The subjects are clearly deeply attentive to their task. But the superior parietal lobe, the center that processes information about space, time and the orientation of the body in space, is suppressed, and is almost totally quiet. The result is that any sense of time, space or being in the world is suppressed along with the activity in the superior parietal lobe. And not feeling "in the world" leads to an "other-worldly" experience. So it is not surprising that those who have this experience describe it as being in the "spiritual realm." Persinger has been able to reproduce this by electrically supressing activity in the superior parietal lobe using his helmet - and when he performs this experiment on Tibetan monks and the Franciscan nun, they all report that the experience is identical to what they experience in their own meditative practice.

What About The Near-Death Experience?

The near-death experience that is described by many patients who have been revived from life-threatening events contain elements of all of these and a few more.
We have seen how the presence of the "god" feeling arises from the result of the shutting down of communications between the temporal lobes. And we have seen how the sense of timelessness and infinite space arise through the supression of activity in the superior parietal lobe. But what about the vision of the tunnel with the light at the end? And the sense of rising out of the body?

The sense of orientation is lost when the superior parietal lobe shuts down. The 'self' no longer feels anchored to the body, because the sense of self being in the body is lost, and one often seems to be rising to 'heaven.' We now know that the vision of the tunnel is produced by the visual cortex being disconnected from sensory input, and beginning to shut down. Same with the light at the end of the tunnel, which is an artifact of the brain's visual cortex 'looking' for sensory input it cannot 'see.' The visions of a beautiful summer garden or lovely mountain landscapes are the result of the memory centers acting on the centers of the brain that organize visual input into things we recognize, which is operating in the near-total absense of sensory input. All of these brain activities together produce the familiar being of light at the end of a tunnel, and the entrance into the beautiful summer garden.

These experiences have a deep, even profound feeling of reality to them. This is simply because the centers of the brain that are producing the experience are cut completely off from sensory that would dilute the 'realness' of the experience - those centers that analyse experience for us in real time and allow us to evaluate it for its correspondence to reality - in other words, the centers of the brain that enable us to discern the difference between dreaming and wakefulness, real versus imagined. Hence, the subjects who report these experiences describe them as being so real they were not at all like a dream. Indeed, they weren't - they were dreams undiluted from sensory reality checks and the evaluation of sensory data for its validity.

But What About "Brain-Dead" Patients And Their Near-death Experiences?

What is now understood is that these phenomena can occur with very minute amounts of electrical activity in the brain. Most of the brain can be shut down and these phenomena are still possible - with electrical activity so small it is not possible to measure it through external devices. Remember, our brains don't come with "diagnostic ports" like a modern automobile's engine computer - what we measure with our electroencephalograms is the "leakage." It's like trying to discern what's happening inside a computer by listening to the static it creates in a radio sitting next to it. A lot can be happening without making enough noise to hear it on the "radio."

What Does All This Mean?

It is clear that the meaning of the understanding of these phenomena are easily explained in detail through well-understood neurological processes in the brain. What are widely regarded as evidence for the existence of a spiritual realm can easily be explained by the material, the mundane. So in the light of that reality, what does the religionist have to say?
Those who have communicated their interpretations to me say that they remain unconvinced that this means any new. I disagree. For most who write to me regarding my essays about the reality of a metaphysical universe, I have but one thing to say: your most powerful, persuasive evidence, namely your own powerful, personal experience, can now be easily and rationally explained, in all its features. No metaphysical explanation is necessary. Because no metaphysical explanation is required to explain your experience, your "evidence" is no longer evidence of anything metaphysical.

So now, religionist, how do you prove your case?"

http://www.bidstrup.com/mystic.htm

gorganfloss
09-11-2002, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by whitedragon

well not exactly :rolleyes:

Hmph...:mad:



:D

whitedragon
09-11-2002, 07:38 PM
wow thats deep :D :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes: :p

gorganfloss
09-11-2002, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Absurd


You might find this entertaining - saw this on another forum:

"Viola! Instant God Experience!

Dr. Michael Persinger, working at Laurentian University, in Sudbury, Ontario, Canada, has pioneered a method for inducing the religious, spiritual experience of the shaman. Without drugs, herbs, hypnosis or invasive surgery, he can quite literally flip a switch and induce the experience of "god."
Using an ordinary striped yellow motorcycle helmet purchased at a sporting goods store, which he has modified with electromagnetic coils, he can place the helmet on your head, connect the wires to a device he has constructed that generates the proper signals, and when the magnetic fields produced by the coils penetrate the skull and into the temporal lobes of the brain, the result is the stimulation of those lobes and a religious experience results.

In common with the Hindu view that a confrontation with God is a confrontation with the self, the nine-hundred plus people who have undertaken the experience produced by Dr. Persinger's helmet have had some very profound experiences. Four out of five say that they've had experiences so profound they would be life-changing had they not understood the mechanistic underpinnings of what they had experienced.

How does Dr. Persinger's helmet work? It works by inducing very small electrical signals with tiny magnetically induced mechanical vibrations in the brain cells of the temporal lobes and other selected areas of the brain, located in the skull just above and forward of the ears. These lobes are the portions of the brain that produce the "Forty Hertz Component" of the brainwaves detected in electroencephalograms. These mysterious "forty hertz components" are present whenever you are awake or when you are in REM sleep. They are absent during deep, dreamless sleep. What the "forty hertz component" does is not well understood, but we know that it is always present during the experience of "self." We cannot have a "me" experience without the forty hertz component being present.

What this means is that the forty hertz component is essential to our experience of self. We cannot experience our sense of individuality without it. It stands to reason, then, that if the forty hertz component could somehow be suppressed, the sense of individuality would be suppressed with it, and indeed, this is what Dr. Persinger's helmet does. It turns off the forty hertz component and with it the sense of individuality which your brain uses to define "self" as opposed to "rest of the world."

When the brain is deprived of the self stimulation and sensory input that is required for it to define itself as being distinct from the rest of the world, the brain 'defaults' to a sense of infinity. The sense of self expands to fill whatever the brain can sense, and what it senses is the world, so the experience of the self simply expands to fill the perception of the world itself. One experiences becoming "one with the universe."

But What About the God Experience?

There are two temporal lobes in the brain, one on each side. The one on the left, in most people, is the dominant one, responsible for language, which becomes dominant when we first learn language as children. The one on the right, non-dominant, contributes to the sense of self with constant communication with its opposite colleague. But being on the far side of the brain, sometimes the communications get out of whack, often as a result of stress or disease, and the forty hertz component falls out of sync. When this happens, the result is that the normally silent right-hand sense of self becomes experienced as a separate presence by the left-hand sense of self.
This is the experience of the God presence. There is an overwhelming sense of presence, an inescapable feeling that someone is there. But when the forty hertz component is deeply attenuated or entirely absent from, say, the left side, and there's no "self" experience occurring, the feeling of unity with infinity is occuring with a sense of an overwhelming presence resulting from the continued operation of the right hand side, there is no way to describe it other than feeling that one has experienced the "infinite presence." Hence the God experience.

All of this has been verified not only experimentally with Dr. Persinger's helmet, but by use of high-tech brain scanning machines similar to the CAT and MRI scanners that many of us have experienced.

And The Sense of Timelessness and Spacelessness in Prayer and Meditation?

Many deeply experienced meditators feel, when deep in meditation, an experience of transcendance of the here and now. They feel a sense of being outside of time and space. How is this experience produced?

Two researchers, Andrew Newberg and Eugene D’Aquili, have taken a particular interest in these experiences. Through the use of a brain-scanning technique called SPECT (Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography), they have determined how these experiences arise. The researchers have produced images of the brains of Tibetan Buddhists who undergo deep, profound meditative experiences as the result of years of practice. They have done the same with a Catholic Franciscan nun, who, after 45 minutes of deep prayer, had her brain scanned to determine what centers were active and what centers were not.

The results show that in both cases, the pre-frontal cortex, which controls attention, is highly stimulated. This is not surprising - meditation requires a great deal of concentration. The subjects are clearly deeply attentive to their task. But the superior parietal lobe, the center that processes information about space, time and the orientation of the body in space, is suppressed, and is almost totally quiet. The result is that any sense of time, space or being in the world is suppressed along with the activity in the superior parietal lobe. And not feeling "in the world" leads to an "other-worldly" experience. So it is not surprising that those who have this experience describe it as being in the "spiritual realm." Persinger has been able to reproduce this by electrically supressing activity in the superior parietal lobe using his helmet - and when he performs this experiment on Tibetan monks and the Franciscan nun, they all report that the experience is identical to what they experience in their own meditative practice.

What About The Near-Death Experience?

The near-death experience that is described by many patients who have been revived from life-threatening events contain elements of all of these and a few more.
We have seen how the presence of the "god" feeling arises from the result of the shutting down of communications between the temporal lobes. And we have seen how the sense of timelessness and infinite space arise through the supression of activity in the superior parietal lobe. But what about the vision of the tunnel with the light at the end? And the sense of rising out of the body?

The sense of orientation is lost when the superior parietal lobe shuts down. The 'self' no longer feels anchored to the body, because the sense of self being in the body is lost, and one often seems to be rising to 'heaven.' We now know that the vision of the tunnel is produced by the visual cortex being disconnected from sensory input, and beginning to shut down. Same with the light at the end of the tunnel, which is an artifact of the brain's visual cortex 'looking' for sensory input it cannot 'see.' The visions of a beautiful summer garden or lovely mountain landscapes are the result of the memory centers acting on the centers of the brain that organize visual input into things we recognize, which is operating in the near-total absense of sensory input. All of these brain activities together produce the familiar being of light at the end of a tunnel, and the entrance into the beautiful summer garden.

These experiences have a deep, even profound feeling of reality to them. This is simply because the centers of the brain that are producing the experience are cut completely off from sensory that would dilute the 'realness' of the experience - those centers that analyse experience for us in real time and allow us to evaluate it for its correspondence to reality - in other words, the centers of the brain that enable us to discern the difference between dreaming and wakefulness, real versus imagined. Hence, the subjects who report these experiences describe them as being so real they were not at all like a dream. Indeed, they weren't - they were dreams undiluted from sensory reality checks and the evaluation of sensory data for its validity.

But What About "Brain-Dead" Patients And Their Near-death Experiences?

What is now understood is that these phenomena can occur with very minute amounts of electrical activity in the brain. Most of the brain can be shut down and these phenomena are still possible - with electrical activity so small it is not possible to measure it through external devices. Remember, our brains don't come with "diagnostic ports" like a modern automobile's engine computer - what we measure with our electroencephalograms is the "leakage." It's like trying to discern what's happening inside a computer by listening to the static it creates in a radio sitting next to it. A lot can be happening without making enough noise to hear it on the "radio."

What Does All This Mean?

It is clear that the meaning of the understanding of these phenomena are easily explained in detail through well-understood neurological processes in the brain. What are widely regarded as evidence for the existence of a spiritual realm can easily be explained by the material, the mundane. So in the light of that reality, what does the religionist have to say?
Those who have communicated their interpretations to me say that they remain unconvinced that this means any new. I disagree. For most who write to me regarding my essays about the reality of a metaphysical universe, I have but one thing to say: your most powerful, persuasive evidence, namely your own powerful, personal experience, can now be easily and rationally explained, in all its features. No metaphysical explanation is necessary. Because no metaphysical explanation is required to explain your experience, your "evidence" is no longer evidence of anything metaphysical.

So now, religionist, how do you prove your case?"

http://www.bidstrup.com/mystic.htm

Okee-Dokey then...

:rolleyes:

Chastan
09-11-2002, 07:47 PM
yeah, leXX, strangely my (former) roommate's grandpa died on this date one year ago, that's what he thinks about when he thinks of "9/11". I hope you are feeling well, if not, be sure to ask someone for a hug, that's what i like to do when feeling down ;)

whitedragon
09-11-2002, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by Chastan
yeah, leXX, strangely my (former) roommate's grandpa died on this date one year ago, that's what he thinks about when he thinks of "9/11". I hope you are feeling well, if not, be sure to ask someone for a hug, that's what i like to do when feeling down ;)
oh really i usually ask for a bottol of scotch. just kidding :rolleyes:

Jah Warrior
09-11-2002, 07:58 PM
Death is a weird subject to me, I think I am in a state of denial that I will ever die which is foolish, I just dont really want to think about it in truth, I'm more concerned with making the present time more bareable, However I have no dependents (unless you include my bumbaclart brother or little man my hamster).

If I had to go, I would either want to be struck by lightning, God I love lightning!!! or failing that I will be happy to die with a spliff in my hand and being pleasantly stoned at that time.

Going to hell or heaven does not really concern me, I am far more inclined to take the buddhists point of view on this matter. (dont tell my mother she is a sunday school teacher LOL).

ShockV1.89
09-11-2002, 11:18 PM
Death is a weird subject to me, I think I am in a state of denial that I will ever die which is foolish

My best friend Trev thought this. He would tell me "Rick, I'm never gonna die. I'm gonna live forever just to piss off all the people who want to see me go."

He died on Friday the 13th, April, 3 months after he told me that. Car accident. (R.I.P.)

It put a whole new spin on death for me. Whenever I pass a funeral, I choke up just a little bit, because I know what those people go through, and I wouldnt wish it on anyone. I used to be curious about death, but now.... now I just wish that it didnt exist... (dont go into the sociological ramifications of this, please. :rolleyes:

Tyrion, I've encountered the dying animal feeling before. I was stacking firewood one day and I found a pillbug on the bottom of a log. Curious, I poked at it. Too hard, and it fell from the log, cracking on the blacktop below. It was on its back, and half its legs werent moving. It was curling up and stretching out, back and forth, and finally it curled up into a ball. I felt awful. It seemed that the merciful thing to do was to crush it and end its pain, even if it was only a bug.

teutonicknight
09-12-2002, 12:08 AM
Some interesting new over at Matrixfans:

http://www.matrixfans.net/news.php/5904

Pretty cool interview....

teutonicknight
09-12-2002, 12:22 AM
Sorry about last post... wrong window...:o

I am veyr interested in death. What happens after you die? Does it actually matter where you go? Curious question to bring up since no one can really answer that quesiton: What happens when you die?

Weapon X
09-12-2002, 12:41 AM
i have a feeling i was the closest to my grandpa out of his grandkids, he had many names for me, and only one for my cousin (of equal age, we were his m&m's cuz both our names start w/m) and when he died i got scared, and realized i would never see him again, every time i've cried in my life doesn't equal the ammount i did that week, but i guess when he died (my mom sat and watched) he told her to turn out the light cuz it was too bright then he died, but one of my friends died from alcohol poisoning (for 15 seconds before they revived him) and he said he only saw black, so who knows what happens, i miss my grandpa soooo much, i just wish i could talk to him once more

ibballin
09-12-2002, 02:00 AM
im sorry to hear about your family. all i can really say is just remember the good times.

as for death, I personally am not afraid of death, im just afraid of the effects it has on the people left behind.

leXX
09-12-2002, 05:08 AM
Thank you so much everyone for your kind words.

I wasn't really close to my Grandad as he lived in Barbados but I was close to my Grandmother and her death (even though I knew it was coming) deeply hurt me.

Like I said, I'm not afraid of dying, I never have been, but I hate the thought of being burnt to death of floating slowly to the bottom of the sea.

My main concern is my family if I die. I know how distraut everyone would be and the thought of leaving my daughters and husband without me is scarey indeed.

Where do we go after we die? Who knows and to tell the truth I don't really care! I will have lived my life as best I can and that is all that really matters. So long as I leave a part of me behind, that is all I want.

Reb Starblazer
09-12-2002, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by leXX
Where do we go after we die? Who knows and to tell the truth I don't really care! I will have lived my life as best I can and that is all that really matters. So long as I leave a part of me behind, that is all I want.

My post will be short and to the point. You don't seem to be too worried about dying LeXX, and in a way, rightfully so. You have two daughters, your children, a part of you is in them. As such, in your children, and all descendents after them, you shall live forever:)

whitedragon
09-12-2002, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by leXX

My main concern is my family if I die. I know how distraut everyone would be and the thought of leaving my daughters and husband without me is scarey indeed.


i felt the same way when i was about 15 my father had devorced my mother and my two brothers were liveing elsewhere and she was so deeply hurt that she felt bad every day and cryed a couple of times a week and i thought that if i die she mite die of greef. i felt like i was the only family she had left (even though my uncle came to live with us). that was the only time i was afraid of dieing.

but were ok now :D

Mandalorian54
09-12-2002, 04:54 PM
i am reminded of a quote from stephen kings desperation "yes God i very crule because he lets us live"-quote from white dragon.


Not cruel, merciful.

whitedragon
09-12-2002, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
i am reminded of a quote from stephen kings desperation "yes God i very crule because he lets us live"-quote from white dragon.


Not cruel, merciful.
hey its from the book. read it and youll understand

Divine Spirit
09-12-2002, 06:31 PM
Some people think im strange just because i see death as the only certain part of living. of course im sad if people die "before their time" or of an unfortunate cause but if someone dies of old age then im not really sad at all. i feel like theyve had as much time as humanly possible and that people should celebrate the life of this person. the only way in which i would be sad is if i miss the person, which i suppose isnt really about them dying, more of a selfish thing.

Kurgan
09-12-2002, 07:13 PM
Death might seem scary, and I plan to live as long as I can, but think about this.... death might be the end, or maybe just the beginning, but you won't be facing it alone.

Every human being that has ever lived has had to face what you'll be facing, or has faced it already. In a sense, the entire human race is dying with you. So while we all might die along, we're really not alone.

So when you live, live, and when you die, go in peace.


As to the "God Helmet" I think it is the dream of many a materialist to be able to put religion into a neat little box with the label "irrational" on it and be done with it, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon. ; )

Anyhow, I see it one of two ways... it sounds interesting, but then it also sort of reminds me of Alex Chiu's magnetic foot-bracelets (ie: a bunch of hokum). On the other hand, it might be real, but it would be like taking steroids to get that buff look instead of doing the real exercise. Ie: a crappy shortcut to the real thing. Still, assuming it wasn't going to zap my brain, I wouldn't mind trying it out, just to see if there was anything to it.
(just don't ask me to fork over any $$$ first!)

Selaris
09-13-2002, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
Death might seem scary, and I plan to live as long as I can, but think about this.... death might be the end, or maybe just the beginning, but you won't be facing it alone.

Every human being that has ever lived has had to face what you'll be facing, or has faced it already. In a sense, the entire human race is dying with you. So while we all might die along, we're really not alone.

So when you live, live, and when you die, go in peace.


As to the "God Helmet" I think it is the dream of many a materialist to be able to put religion into a neat little box with the label "irrational" on it and be done with it, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon. ; )

Anyhow, I see it one of two ways... it sounds interesting, but then it also sort of reminds me of Alex Chiu's magnetic foot-bracelets (ie: a bunch of hokum). On the other hand, it might be real, but it would be like taking steroids to get that buff look instead of doing the real exercise. Ie: a crappy shortcut to the real thing. Still, assuming it wasn't going to zap my brain, I wouldn't mind trying it out, just to see if there was anything to it.
(just don't ask me to fork over any $$$ first!)

Well, it wouldn't quite be like taking steroids, unless the magnetic foot bracelets ruin your body, though I understand the sentiment. Calling something a bunch of hokum is kind of closed minded though, don't you think? Especially from someone who comes from a religious perspective--I mean, realistically, it's in your best interested to act based on an open mind, because if you don't, it winds up looking as though you picked your perspective randomly, rather than based on thoughtful consideration of any available theory. Though, when you honestly consider how verifiable the most accepted of 'facts' are, you begin to understand that we all better keep an open mind, else one day our pens will fall up and we will die of shock rather than adapting.

Which is not to say that I don't agree with your thoughts on this helmet, I see that as the same thing, from a different angle.

As for death, who really knows what it is, or what it can be? The most you can do is live life to the fullest. If it ends totally after that--great, you've done all you can! If it doesn't end after that, great! You've had a lot of fun, and are now ready to have more (unless you don't believe in Jesus...or Shiva...or Allah...or the Holy Savior Frank Smith... then you'll burn in hell!!). Lyger, in a rather brusqe manner, hit the nail on the head--live life the best you can (though to do that, you will have to consider your past, and plan your future, to an extent). In any case, missing those who are gone will always be a part of life, be it through death or any other means.