State of ProMod beta 3 [Archive]

ArtifeX

09-17-2002, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by zerowingzero
What the? Someone hacked Artifex's site and username?! j/k

What i want to see is your gun/saber balanceing system, right not i'm shying away from then because right now it's really easy to just jump back and rocket someone, or if your good, strafe and alt fire with the main 3.

Yes, the gun-balancing system will be in Beta 3.

Also some other stuff i'm looking forward to:

new force power
new gametype
Some saber throw system

as for the new force buying system, i'm assuming you mean the saber offence, not really needed but helpfull

Also i have and idea, i need to see if it's plausable

automatic knockdown from lv 3 pull when pulling someone from behind, they are runing forward, their csc value on you is 0 and yours is fully red, and the puller has to be very close to the runner. I don't really see this being a problem as knockdowns arent really that bad with jump, but it would help to stop people from runing away mid fight and the best you can do is try and close in on them with the saber, Pull (can't link with an attack if succesful), or saber throw and hope they stay in a straight line.

I don't know if this could be implemented easly or needed, so i need some oppinions.

You've pretty accurately described what I'm doing to Push and Pull. A strong push from behind is going to knock you down if you're caught flat-footed (facing away from your attacker). I'm planning on making thrown sabers vulnerable to an equal or higher level of, and well-aimed Force Push. A Pushed saber will drop dead in the air, and might get pushed far away if the Power Level deficit is bad enough.

zerowingzero

09-17-2002, 05:51 PM

Whoo, can't wait!

Heh, if you really want to go crazy with the fun mode (and have time to work nonstop), pulling a thrown saber in certain instances should enable double sabers for the puller, with them geting the stolen saber knocked out with a kick.

Damn i shouldent have said anything, Artifex will try and do it anyway, why won't he ever take a break? I almost wish i knew something about coding so i could help more...

taboo

09-17-2002, 06:02 PM

Why, that's just plain retarded zerowingzero ... Artifex should obviously be spending his time creating new saber hilt packs! :p Honestly tho, unless the animations were redone, holding 2 sabers looks a bit silly imho.

The push/pull changes make a great deal of sense. Sooo, are ya gonna fill us in yet on the saber/weapons balancing changes? I'm dying to know!

zerowingzero

09-17-2002, 06:06 PM

Heh, i was refering to the "Madness mode" aka the optional model scaling/dbl saber/ stuff that doesnt really need to be added, called "sarcasm".

I wish i knew the details also, maybe if i quickly taking some coding courses...

taboo

09-17-2002, 06:17 PM

Hehe ... I's just funnin' ya a bit. :)

Toonces

09-17-2002, 07:55 PM

Duel sabers are in my opinion a total waste unless the animation code can get ironed out and have them totally re-done and balanced. A new cvar is a good idea though so all that "fluff" can be turned off for the pureists :)

Cant wait to see what the new game types are :D

Psionic Jedi

09-18-2002, 01:09 AM

Thank goodness for another version of Promod. Praxknights and Artifex's server has been empty so I can't get my promod fix :( .

Model scaling is going to be a bit cumbersome... if you're accustomed to aiming at the regular model height and you meet a Yoda or Ugnaught, you're going to have to readjust your aim, which is sort of annoying.

But at least it will immigrate some of those crazy Jedimod players by adding Dualbladed Double sabers.

Oh wait... Dualbladed Double sabers with Promod damage? CHAOS!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

thehomicidalegg

09-18-2002, 03:13 AM

maybe limiting the range of the scaling... the <0.5 and >2 models u see in jedimod is just plain ridiculous

ArtifeX

09-18-2002, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by taboo
Why, that's just plain retarded zerowingzero ... Artifex should obviously be spending his time creating new saber hilt packs! :p Honestly tho, unless the animations were redone, holding 2 sabers looks a bit silly imho.

The push/pull changes make a great deal of sense. Sooo, are ya gonna fill us in yet on the saber/weapons balancing changes? I'm dying to know!

Not just yet. Have to work with it a bit to see how it's going to end up. Once I'm sure of the features, I'll clue you all in.

Dath Maximus

09-18-2002, 08:54 AM

hey artifex, why is it your mod is the only mod that doesnt glitch my mp game up?

trying to get rid of the competetion are we?

j/k

its a good mod

*steals artifex's wallet*

ArtifeX

09-18-2002, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by Toonces
Duel sabers are in my opinion a total waste unless the animation code can get ironed out and have them totally re-done and balanced. A new cvar is a good idea though so all that "fluff" can be turned off for the pureists :)

Cant wait to see what the new game types are :D

I agree that the animations don't support dual sabers well, but there are so many people saying that they won't use ProMod until they get them that I'm being forced to capitulate. I'll do my best to balance them. One thing I'll be doing for sure is giving the double saber style a heavy penalty to resisting a Defense Breaker, and low damage. My reasoning: you're using the sabers one-handed. Imagine trying to hit a baseball while holding the bat with only one hand.

ArtifeX

09-18-2002, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by Psionic Jedi
Thank goodness for another version of Promod. Praxknights and Artifex's server has been empty so I can't get my promod fix :( .

Try doing what I do. Whenever my server's empty, I just lurk in there for a bit, and usually within a few minutes there's 4-8 people in there. Kinda like "priming the pump".

Model scaling is going to be a bit cumbersome... if you're accustomed to aiming at the regular model height and you meet a Yoda or Ugnaught, you're going to have to readjust your aim, which is sort of annoying.

But at least it will immigrate some of those crazy Jedimod players by adding Dualbladed Double sabers.

Looking at jedimod1.2, the biggest reasons people use it are the dual sabers and the model scaling. Give them those options in another mod, and maybe they'll at least give it a shot. Most people that complain about the lack of these 2 things haven't even downloaded ProMod from what I've seen.

Oh wait... Dualbladed Double sabers with Promod damage? CHAOS!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Believe it or not, the final goal of ProMod will balance dual and double-bladed sabers with the other single-saber styles. How? (taps fingers together thoughtfully).

ArtifeX

09-18-2002, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by thehomicidalegg
maybe limiting the range of the scaling... the <0.5 and >2 models u see in jedimod is just plain ridiculous

I'm going to limit sizes to 0.6-->1.2. Anything outside of those bounds would make the game balance go haywire.

Dath Maximus

09-18-2002, 09:06 AM

hmmm, it seems artifex doesnt want his wallet back

ohh well,

ArtifeX

09-18-2002, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by Dath Maximus
hey artifex, why is it your mod is the only mod that doesnt glitch my mp game up?

Could be because most of the changes are only to the source code. The only things in the .pk3 file other than the vm's are 5 new texture images. Most of the mods are packaging tons of new models and maps, which could be disagreeable to your system.

Try adding some of the models and maps from the other mods into your promod directory. If promod breaks after adding some of these things, then you'll know the problem is with the extra content.

ArtifeX

09-18-2002, 09:25 AM

Just another update on how things are going:

I began coding Beta 3 last night. Things went well enough so that I ended up fixing all of the reported bugs in about 4 hours. Jah Warrior and others will be happy to know that the "spinning special move" bug is now gone. All of the specials react exactly how they're supposed to whether they collide with another saber, a player or whatever. Orangina Rouge will be a bit upset to find his favorite technique is now gone (level 2 drain and lightning still had the old range--now fixed). There was some goofiness with Dodging sniper shots with Force Sight when Force was disabled, which is also fixed. The arc in which you can block a sniper shot with Saber Defense has also been narrowed from 45-degrees to about 30-degrees, making level 3 Force Sight more valuable.

Next step is a massive overhaul of the UI, including the ability to filter servers running ProMod. One thing I'd like to get some feedback on: Would you guys like Beta 3 to go into a new directory, such as "GameData/ProModBeta3" or would you rather continue to overwrite the old files in their directory?

Dath Maximus

09-18-2002, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

Could be because most of the changes are only to the source code. The only things in the .pk3 file other than the vm's are 5 new texture images. Most of the mods are packaging tons of new models and maps, which could be disagreeable to your system.

Try adding some of the models and maps from the other mods into your promod directory. If promod breaks after adding some of these things, then you'll know the problem is with the extra content.

no your mod is fine, it mods like jedi mod that cause the glytching,
ever since my pc crashed its done that. i can still play, but seeing health is impossible. ohh well, jetpack works atleast

you sure you arnt slipping in corrupt files into other mods, making yours the only working one? Much like bill gates.
Artifex Gates

ArtifeX

09-18-2002, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by Dath Maximus

no your mod is fine, it mods like jedi mod that cause the glytching,
ever since my pc crashed its done that. i can still play, but seeing health is impossible. ohh well, jetpack works atleast

you sure you arnt slipping in corrupt files into other mods, making yours the only working one? Much like bill gates.
Artifex Gates

Nope, no "predatory practices" from me!

What I meant for you to try was to take some of the bad data files from the .pk3's of the mods giving you trouble and put them into your GameData/promod directory and see if ProMod continues to run well. That will help you figure out exactly what about those other mods is causing you grief. Glad ProMod's not the culprit!

Sith Maximus

09-18-2002, 11:51 AM

I am glad to see that you are going to incorporate the "eye candy" into promod. This will bring my regulars to the new promod releases.

I have been priming the pump the best I can to get them ready and this will help even more.

Jedimod in itself is great fun but promod is where the skill lies and I am glad that u are taking this to heart.

My quick question to you is this. Are you doing new code for the dual saber stuff or are u using jedimod as a base. If you do use Jedimod as a base leave all of the emotes in place. People love those things and plus they add a bit of variety to the beginning of a duel when you can give someone the thumbsdown or do a saber flip. Also leave in or add the custom saber hilts. and make them a seperate cvar like they are in jedimod. That way if the server does not want "funmode" on then they can have the custom hilts on. Its just another way of adding a "personal" touch to your model. The new saber color system also does this and works well. Each saber is tuned to that persons color taste and is also a personal mark in the game. You will then know who to "ahem" move away from in a quick glance.

Love the direction you are heading and I am glad that you are putting the will of the masses into your mod without giving up on the core integrity.

Thanks for your thought and hard work!:D

ArtifeX

09-18-2002, 01:39 PM

There's a ton of existing "emotes" in the animation files already, like the meditatation pose, etc., that I'll most likely put in. Dest and Tchouky seem to say somewhere in one of the forum threads that they have programmatically manipulated the skeleton to produce a few more emotes (not sure if that's so). If that is the case, you can be sure they won't be included. I won't be using any of jedimod's code.

zerowingzero

09-18-2002, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

Try doing what I do. Whenever my server's empty, I just lurk in there for a bit, and usually within a few minutes there's 4-8 people in there. Kinda like "priming the pump".

Well if what i think is true, most use the in-game browser so if they have the option "don't list empty servers", then they arent seeing it. Adding 1 bot will make people see the server 24/7, as well as geting out of the lame "fighting a server full of bots" thing.

And with the dual sabers, were the animations made independantly or with the game? i've looked thru all those animations and there are tons that were never used.

Also, if you want to be evil you can include a mp.cfg they most uninformed players will download with auto dl and server name "promod server" enabled, they will have to reset all their keys but they will always have the latest version... heh heh heh

Also yes, nameing the mod Promodb3 or something will help distingush old servers from new, it isnt the final version so naming it "promod" kinda confuses things.

Good luck

Kengo

09-18-2002, 07:13 PM

I don't suppose than a new gametype in Promod at some point in the future could be some kinda mercenary vs. jedi mode? Just seems such a good idea, would be great to have it implemented with Promod. Either way, its a brilliant mod, I wouldn't be playing JK2 MP anymore if it wasn't for it infact! :)

zerowingzero

09-18-2002, 07:30 PM

The origional Jedi vs Merc is still in promod, althought unbalenced atm.

g_jedivsmerc 1 if i remember correctly

thehomicidalegg

09-19-2002, 01:51 AM

its g_jedivmerc 1

that need to be balanced out quite dramtically though.

as for the mod replacement thing, i dont mind either way, though replacing the old mod will make ppl play the newest version.

ArtifeX

09-19-2002, 08:52 AM

Yes, I will be expanding on jedi vs. merc, but I'm not doing anything with the jedivmerc setting.

(Everyone looks at Artifex with a puzzled expression)

Trust me.

Homeboy

09-19-2002, 10:04 AM

OOOH! Seems like something big is coming...
I wonder if ArtifeX really is a single human being. He's doing more than some teams do.
Or I think too much :P

FatalStrike

09-19-2002, 10:18 AM

Just when I was happy in my v1.02 Arti has to go and talk about another promod! Damn you!

*cough* spinning DFA *cough*

I have this annoying cold that just won't go away..

*cough* pull down gunners *cough*

I took some Nyquil but it has had no effect!

*cough* *cough* force power set to 1.02 levels*cough* *cough*

Oh well I am going to lie down.

ArtifeX

09-19-2002, 11:43 AM

Fatal: One of these versions will get you to quit playing 1.02, i swear.

Hey, what happened to jedibattlefield? Stopped by yesterday and the whole site's just gone.

FatalStrike

09-19-2002, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by ArtifeX
Fatal: One of these versions will get you to quit playing 1.02, i swear.

Hey, what happened to jedibattlefield? Stopped by yesterday and the whole site's just gone.

The last I heard was that -V-Rage was leaving JKII for good. I guess the site crumbled without him.

Another casualty of Ravens patches!

Rad Blackrose

09-19-2002, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by ArtifeX
There's a ton of existing "emotes" in the animation files already, like the meditatation pose, etc., that I'll most likely put in. Dest and Tchouky seem to say somewhere in one of the forum threads that they have programmatically manipulated the skeleton to produce a few more emotes (not sure if that's so). If that is the case, you can be sure they won't be included. I won't be using any of jedimod's code.

They did, most likely. I think /jedi was a pure example of that.

thehomicidalegg

09-20-2002, 04:32 AM

Gargh! I hate ppl who says 'trust me.' :p

*bashes artifex with a big wooded spoon ... stops... looks around... runs away as fast as possible with force speed turned on*

Blamer

09-20-2002, 03:41 PM

Thanks for the update...Promod is the only version of the MP game I enjoy playing anymore, but whenever I'm ready to play the only active servers are off in Europe or Asia with like 2 players each (at least 1 of whom is usually a bot). Hopefully this will help boost the game's popularity.

ArtifeX

09-20-2002, 06:45 PM

One thing everybody needs to make sure of is that they're not filtering out empty servers. There's around 12-20 ProMod servers at any time, many of which are empty. Don't be afraid to be the first one into the server--someone's got to be. I never have to wait more than a couple minutes in my official server before someone's joined in. Within 10 minutes, there's usually 5-10 people in there.

Doctor Shaft

09-22-2002, 12:11 AM

JK2++ is dead. ther'es a replacement server and such, but the glory days of the server being filled with some jk2++ servers is dead. Rest in peace JK2++, it's all that kept me around.

Now, promod is all I have left. I'm glad you're still dedicated to hammering stuff out. While you'll never convince me that saber damage is high enough, since i'm so high on my jk2++ damage levels. Personally, I wish light stance were more powerful... heck, I wish all the stances were more powerful. Even with your current settings, and defense values, yellow stance is still better than most styles all-around. Red is powerful, but I wish it was more dangerous, light stance... bah, it's so defense in nature and the rewards are so small for using it properly, that you might as well switch to yellow anyway, and use blue to finish off. I'm still a guy who likes having the abilyt to take someone out in two seconds. And while promod does have it, I like having that ability all the time... you know what i'm getting at.

Otherwise, your mod is technically superior. Even with damage at a level that I wish was higher, it is balanced. If you're going to give into the models and stuff, here's a few suggestions, even though I'm completely uninformed in the programming department. If duel sabers, or lightstaffs, or whatever get in, i'm always a pro-high saber damage guy. I am the guy who thinks a lightsaber should hurt as much as that imperial flechette does. Don't reduce the damage. The blocking thing you mentioned, good idea. Give the dual person the offensive advantage, he can block stuff and put out twice as much trouble. Even give the person offensive points in the csc just for having the stuff. But also give them a constant defensive defecit. I would assume a dual person would want to parry or deflect most moves. Give the user light stance properties only. Don't emulate everytning and give them like three styles. So they can parry, attack more often, give them offensive bonus, but also a limit. Let the models effect that as well. Small guys, offensive penalty, especially for yoda (they'll just have to get skilled with lightstance or something), and big guys, I don't know why to do with that. Why not give them offensive bonus for being large. Hmm... that's a tough one. The yoda thing I wouldn't really care, I have no problem ducking or aiming low. Hitting him will be hard, but if you give the tiny models a defecit in both offense and defense, i'm cool with it. Big guys, that's a tough one. I'd say "well, if they're bigger, doesn't it just mkae it easier to hit" but it wouldn't effect how to models respond to blocking or anything. Why not make them slower, or just throw at them anyway, even if it wouldn't make "sense".

I think your mod is fine, so when I throw out ideas, these are just opinions, etc., not things that promod would need to do in order to get me to play. In terms of blue stance parrying, yellow stance deflecting, red stance "i forget", i can see the animations in there, but I do wish that when these "clashes occur, these annimations would have a little more effect on the players. What I'm saying is, that up really close, the animations for the blocking effects, or should i just say the blocking effects, do work to a degree, hits come through. But in terms of movement, it's like people cna just run around while clashing. I always hated that. If I clash sabers, I think people should be more visibly effected. Player model shouldn't be given so much flexibilyt to move. Especially with light stance. Perhaps if someone comes in so careless testing the lightstances defenses, the parry should be able to not just do what it does not, but even force player models in certain directions, stun a person. I don't know how you'd do that exactly though. But right now, the effect is there... but not a large factor. People switch to blue for a better defense, but not so often. Doing it makes blocking better to a degree, but how often do you switch to red stance for strategic blocking? Or yellow stance? It would be cool if each stance had blocking effects that were more prominent. It would also be nice if those blocking effects were even more prominent on model scaling. So normal size, we can actually force players in certain directions with blocking style, etc. If the model is yoda, we can force him to go somewhere even more so. Programmin wise though, yeah, that just might be too out there.

New force power point system. New force powers. I'm for it. I wish this game had a ton of powers like MotS did. Granted, the tons of powers I speak of weren't "that' many, but as much I always try to tell people "make new force powers' no one ever shows interest. It would be nice if the force had a more prominent, but still subtle effect. Right now, it is subtle... as in why assign points to the dark side or lightside when you can use a gun. Now this drives me nuts!!!! Yes, I agree that having lightning or drain be too effect can be annoying, but let's get serious. Right now, it's more effective to use force speed and an imperial repeater than it is to put any points in lightning. Why? Why bother. Lightning is useless unless someone is stupid enough to stand there and let you do it. Or they just use absorb. I have a whole slew of opinions about game options and stuff. Along with saber damage (which isn't nearly as an importnat issue honestly), and force powers, i'm all about having tons of options to win. Right now, it's use your saber or use a gun. The force really doesn't factor in too much, except when rushing down a gunner and jumping. Right now, the most effective power to have is absorb, jump, speed, heal/drain, and dark rage. Mind trick.... well, even with the new settings, it's limited in usefulness. Protect.... well, it's annoying now because lightsaber damage is low enough that protect actually can prove... well quite annoying. But even still, not the most popular. Lighning, why bother decreasing the range. Never in any history, any version, have i ever had a problem fighting lightning. or drain. Well, the drain I did. I could careless that my force power was gone, it was the fact that the person was healing so well. In addition, since lightsaber damage is still only 'moderate', and less effective than a rocket launcher, drain is super effective.

I'll just stop typing, and post more concrete ideas later.

zerowingzero

09-22-2002, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by FatalStrike

*cough* spinning DFA *cough*

Are you refering to the special blocking bug or the other spining dfa, (Which i made a video of ;))

ArtifeX

09-22-2002, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
...I'm still a guy who likes having the abilyt to take someone out in two seconds. And while promod does have it, I like having that ability all the time... you know what i'm getting at.

My main concern with saber damages is to make sure that skilled players can dispatch another player quickly, but still avoid the 1-hit kills. I think the backstabs/sweeps are 1 hit kills right now, but they're super hard to land (as they should be).

Otherwise, your mod is technically superior. Even with damage at a level that I wish was higher, it is balanced. If you're going to give into the models and stuff, here's a few suggestions, even though I'm completely uninformed in the programming department. If duel sabers, or lightstaffs, or whatever get in, i'm always a pro-high saber damage guy. I am the guy who thinks a lightsaber should hurt as much as that imperial flechette does. Don't reduce the damage...

Don't worry, I'm going to be making the twin saber style a unique stance in and of itself. There'll be no using twin sabers in blue, yellow or red stances--it'll have it's own with unique combat properties that'll make sense.

I think your mod is fine, so when I throw out ideas, these are just opinions, etc., not things that promod would need to do in order to get me to play. In terms of blue stance parrying, yellow stance deflecting, red stance "i forget", i can see the animations in there, but I do wish that when these "clashes occur, these annimations would have a little more effect on the players. What I'm saying is, that up really close, the animations for the blocking effects, or should i just say the blocking effects, do work to a degree, hits come through. But in terms of movement, it's like people cna just run around while clashing. I always hated that. If I clash sabers, I think people should be more visibly effected. Player model shouldn't be given so much flexibilyt to move...

I've been thinking about adding some inertia to the swings, but only when two sabers collide. Hitting someone's body with one shouldn't knock them back; it should just cut right through them. Some good suggestions here. I'll keep them in mind.

New force power point system. New force powers...

The usefulness of the force powers in combat is really controvercial. My main concern is that when one player faces off with another of equal force rank, they should be able to fight each other to a standstill if both are using just their force powers if both players are of roughly the same skill level.

Yes, there is going to be a new force power in the next beta. It'll be a neutral one.

MrCrusher

09-22-2002, 07:53 PM

LucasArts should make this mod the next offical patch.

Doctor Shaft

09-22-2002, 08:49 PM

Glad you plan on giving the dual sabers and such their own style. That would be a much better way of dealing with it.

I have a whole brim of ideas concerning force powers, I've been 'fighting' for it for a long time. Right now, force powers are there, and in a force on force struggle, things come to a stand still, as they should, but there's no real danger when the force comes into play. Push and pull were 'great' in 1.03. Granted they were slightly too effective, but now they are all but useless. I just put points in it so that I don't have to worry about getting overpowered.

Why not put more of a dangerous emphasis on the force power system? Right now, force powers are more of a flavor of the week that you put in to make lightsaber battles more colorful. It's cool that you can spew lightning every now and then, but on a competitive level, it's more of an annoyance than something dangerous to contend with. If you want to shoot stuff, might as well find a rocket launcher, it'll do a better job.

Why not make the force powers more dynamic. You already mentioned that you wanted to give push and pull a csc valu.e It would nice to actually know when I can knock someone down as opposed to just kind of shoving them away. I never use that power except when a gun is fired or the spirit moves me to do it.

Force lightning. You already decreased the range. While I wouldn't mind giving it a little more damage ability, I'm sure other people would. Well, rather than make it a gun, why not give it status effect abilities? Let it put the opponents player model into different animations, like blocking animations. Let it have a kind of stunning effect. Yes, grip already stuns a person, but that's a different move altogether. Lightning is a novelty in a competitive multiplayer game. It does damage, but only the slow or badly injured ever truly incorporate lightning as a potential danger.

Force drain. Again, it works well in saber battles, but once I pull out the rocket launcher, are you so excited to use drain on me? It works in a saber battle because it'll heal you really fast, and you can block the other saber attacks. With a rocket launcher, getting close to drain is like suicide. I guess this is a phenomenon that can't be adjusted. One thing I did notice though is that using drain doesn't effect a persons ability to move, or even really block. It would be nice if using drain had more of a risk behind besides getting close.

Dark rage. this power has more effect on making you a great gunner when combined with speed, but otherwise it's just a huge invincibility rush. People see it and they just kind of run because you can't really stop it. It would be nice to be able to push these individuals. Why not remove this common "let's turn rage on and burn out everyone with my gun" and give it a kind of csc modifier. This way you can either go all out with your guns (which is still think is the silliest and dumbest aspect of the game, although I deal with it and realize it is not 'cheap'), or change your saber style. Right now, you get faster swings, and your csc naturally goes higher becuase you move faster. But why not have it as a constant bonus. You also get a constant penalty on your defense. A lot of ragers have been able to turn on rage, and be invincible to saber swings. It's hard to get a hit in. Why not give them a penalty that effectively removes their defense. Also, if you can mkae the parries, the defelcts, and the blocing a more prominent feature, you could give the dark rager the ability to knock people around.

I know this all sounds juvenile and simplistic, because I'm too lazy to check my typing and make it all sound. But what I'm saying is why not make dark rage and protect more of a csc modifier instead of just what they are. Right now, rage is used becaue no one can touch you, which is slightly ridiculous. Protect, well, it's just kind of defunct. It's useable, but not that able. Rage and protect would have an offensive and defensive effect respectively, rather than "i rush down" or "i try to take less damage". Rage would have the offesnive bonus, if someone keeps range and blocks you, you'd be able to effectively swat them around. Open them up, and make sardines. Protect, rather than giving them this uber blocking ability, just give them a slight csc bonus. Like +1 or +2 if you're feeling generous. But unlike rage, that relies on overpowering and shoving the opponent around, protect will allow you to redirect attacks more effectively. It would be a counter system rather than offense.

These are just rough ideas. The protect idea may just be a bummer. Heck, most people may feel the rage thing is useless too.

I still think protect needs something innovative done with it. Reducing 80% damage or whatever is really more of an annoyance to saberist than an effective weapon in a diverse multiplayer game.

Primarily, I really think the blocking, deflecting, parrying, knockaway system should have a more prominent effect on player models. Whe n a person even just blocks saber attacks, the defenders model should be force to react, to kind of slow down, assume postiions that will hold him in place. This will prevent the ever rampant " walk backwards, sidestep, run away all day" stradegy. It's a stradegy, yes, but it would be nicer if the offensive and defesnive attacks actually effected how players moved. So, if a person is just blocking, he starts to slow down, his movement becomes restricted, forcing him to rely heavily on a good csc aim. If he gets knocked away, it should be a more prominent effect. It would shove your player model about in directions the player would rather not go, and even knock his cross hairs about. This would add to the ferver. Usually, if you already have a good red lock, you'll block rather easily. However, the attacker also doesn't reallly experience any effect unless he mindless drives fowards and literally 'humps' the opponent. Most hits come from well time shots at open spots. But if successful overpowers or parries could knock player models around, it could add a whole kind of 'effective block - creates good opening.

Switching stances for different blocking effects would also show then. Light stance would be easiest to use. It already has a natural blocking bonus. A good parry would force a model foward-left, foward-right. The block would not stop the attackers momentum, but actually drive them past you. Yellow deflects. It would knock a player from left to right, keeping them in front of you. REd stance would be the knock away. It would knock you back. It would be nice if it were possible that a good red block, or even a really good red strike that is blocked, would actually result in a knock back or even a knock down. Hence red stance wouldn't just be the guard breaker, but when faced successfully head on, it's possible to knock down.

Just a few random ideas. I should probably stop and just let you do your thing.

ArtifeX

09-23-2002, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Glad you plan on giving the dual sabers and such their own style. That would be a much better way of dealing with it.

I'll be using Desann's style and possibly tavion's style animations for the twin sabers. Unfortunately, there's no good way of doing new animations yet, so I'm forced to use animations that are already in the game.

I have a whole brim of ideas concerning force powers, I've been 'fighting' for it for a long time. Right now, force powers are there, and in a force on force struggle, things come to a stand still, as they should, but there's no real danger when the force comes into play. Push and pull were 'great' in 1.03. Granted they were slightly too effective, but now they are all but useless. I just put points in it so that I don't have to worry about getting overpowered.

Push and Pull are currently used more for tactical positioning than getting kills via knockdowns. They are both already linked to the CSC by giving a harder Push or Pull to a target that is close to the crosshair. In cases where one player has a higher level of push or pull, then that can result in a knockdown. One thing I do plan on implementing is that if you get Pushed/Pulled from almost directly behind at close range, then that will knock you down.

Why not put more of a dangerous emphasis on the force power system? Right now, force powers are more of a flavor of the week that you put in to make lightsaber battles more colorful. It's cool that you can spew lightning every now and then, but on a competitive level, it's more of an annoyance than something dangerous to contend with. If you want to shoot stuff, might as well find a rocket launcher, it'll do a better job.

Saber+force vs. Guns+force balance is coming in Beta 3. (no, i'm not going to nerf anything.)

Why not make the force powers more dynamic. You already mentioned that you wanted to give push and pull a csc valu.e It would nice to actually know when I can knock someone down as opposed to just kind of shoving them away. I never use that power except when a gun is fired or the spirit moves me to do it.

See the above comments on Push/Pull.

Force lightning. You already decreased the range. While I wouldn't mind giving it a little more damage ability, I'm sure other people would. Well, rather than make it a gun, why not give it status effect abilities? Let it put the opponents player model into different animations, like blocking animations. Let it have a kind of stunning effect. Yes, grip already stuns a person, but that's a different move altogether. Lightning is a novelty in a competitive multiplayer game. It does damage, but only the slow or badly injured ever truly incorporate lightning as a potential danger.

Maybe when lightning is used by itself, but when it's coupled with other powers, lightning is one of the best powers in the game. I love to wait until over-eager saber throwers waste all their force. I then drain them all the way down and lightning the crap out of them. That usually leaves them with next to no health and an empty force pool.

Force drain. Again, it works well in saber battles, but once I pull out the rocket launcher, are you so excited to use drain on me? It works in a saber battle because it'll heal you really fast, and you can block the other saber attacks. With a rocket launcher, getting close to drain is like suicide. I guess this is a phenomenon that can't be adjusted. One thing I did notice though is that using drain doesn't effect a persons ability to move, or even really block. It would be nice if using drain had more of a risk behind besides getting close.

Drain is the centerpiece of the Dark Side powers. I've hand the lion's share of players telling me that Drain's current settings are spot on (9 out of 10 players or so).

Dark rage. this power has more effect on making you a great gunner when combined with speed, but otherwise it's just a huge invincibility rush. People see it and they just kind of run because you can't really stop it. It would be nice to be able to push these individuals. Why not remove this common "let's turn rage on and burn out everyone with my gun" and give it a kind of csc modifier. This way you can either go all out with your guns (which is still think is the silliest and dumbest aspect of the game, although I deal with it and realize it is not 'cheap'), or change your saber style. Right now, you get faster swings, and your csc naturally goes higher becuase you move faster. But why not have it as a constant bonus. You also get a constant penalty on your defense. A lot of ragers have been able to turn on rage, and be invincible to saber swings. It's hard to get a hit in. Why not give them a penalty that effectively removes their defense. Also, if you can mkae the parries, the defelcts, and the blocing a more prominent feature, you could give the dark rager the ability to knock people around.

...

These are just rough ideas. The protect idea may just be a bummer. Heck, most people may feel the rage thing is useless too.

I'm planning on giving Dark Ragers a CSC penalty during the "cool-down" phase of Rage. It doesn't make sense that they should be able to defend and attack just as well as a fresh player during that period.

I'm also confused as to why Dark Rage would increase your firing rate with a mechanical weapon like a rocket launcher. Being "sped up" and pulling your trigger finger faster than normal shouldn't affect the reloading rate on a machine like that. There's probably some habitual Speed/Ragers out there saying, "Nooooo!!" right now.

I still think protect needs something innovative done with it. Reducing 80% damage or whatever is really more of an annoyance to saberist than an effective weapon in a diverse multiplayer game.

Primarily, I really think the blocking, deflecting, parrying, knockaway system should have a more prominent effect on player models. ... if successful overpowers or parries could knock player models around, it could add a whole kind of 'effective block - creates good opening.

Though it's not exactly what you're mentioning here, I'm already working with something similar. The trick is to implement this without severely altering how the combat is currently working.

FatalStrike

09-23-2002, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by zerowingzero

Are you refering to the special blocking bug or the other spining dfa, (Which i made a video of ;)) [/B]

I am speaking of the need, the call, the urge, the yearning, and the absolute withdrawel I have for a DFA that is not so easily dodged.

ProMod makes the DFA and all special moves easy to block, so I can't understand why we still need them to be nuetered. THis is the same mistake Raven made, they fixed the problem but then went too far with it.

For example - if pull and kicking don't knock you down, why can't we do a spinning backstab? Ass Fighting can't be spammed because the blocking system + the damage scale would mean that approach would be certain death. Yet you people still don't want it to spin. Why?

1.02 was the best saber fighting, I have done two polls and the majority agreed. However 1.02 had no defense, so to me the answer is clear. ProMod is the only skilled defensive scheme I have seen in JKII, 1.02 is the best offensive scheme, combine them and you have an awesome Mod.

See I was led to believe that the "Pro" in ProMod meant it was for above average players. Yet all I see is worries of spammers and the same stupid comments that messed this game up in the first place.

THE STRONGEST OFFENSE = 1.02
THE WEAKEST OFFENSE = 1.04

WEAK and PRO don't mix.

ArtifeX

09-23-2002, 12:59 PM

fatal, start a poll thread on whether or not people want a spinning dfa back in the game. we'll see how much support it gets, then I'll see what I can do.

FatalStrike

09-23-2002, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by ArtifeX
fatal, start a poll thread on whether or not people want a spinning dfa back in the game. we'll see how much support it gets, then I'll see what I can do.

What I am not enough?! Are you mad....oh yeah thats right its just me :(

I shall do as you ask but I want more then just a Spinning DFA!!

ArtifeX

09-23-2002, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by FatalStrike

What I am not enough?! Are you mad....oh yeah thats right its just me :(

I shall do as you ask but I want more then just a Spinning DFA!!

Well, post something about them as well, but keep the poll focused on the dfa.

FatalStrike

09-23-2002, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

Well, post something about them as well, but keep the poll focused on the dfa.

Actually I posted a long winded discussion of making the entire offense more 1.02 like. I will keep it peaceful and just want to see what people think of un-nerfing things.

I will make the poll you want soon but I first wish to have a chance to plant the seed.

AV4T4R

09-26-2002, 06:29 AM

Hello Artifex, ( sorry for my english, i'm italian )

I'm an Italian guy from NGI community ( WCG related : world cyber games ) and me and other guys are organizing a huge ladder\tournaments for JK2, i'm really interested in your mod, just i would like to suggest u some good way to make a good duel with FORCE and NO FORCE balanced.

Just PROMOD is EXCELLENT, congratulation for the work , what we tried is to let a Force duel be more related to sabers than to "i run away, i lightning u, i run away, i lightnin u".

Just we reduced force regen time to 800 ( 4 times slower ) and it means that if u start a force power, u should think before doing it, couse if u miss, u'll LOOSE power and u'll have disvantage, and just this time u dont run everytime just hitting from far away, couse u dont have any force to run.
( bust this is just a server setting, u dont need to put it in the mod eheh )

What i would like to ask u is.

It's not everytime True that a GUNNER is able to kill a JEDI everytime, couse if u play with ladder rules, a GUNNER cant use force as far a jedi CANT use weapons.

It means a gunner goes disarmed in 5 seconds and then killed everytime, and the only weapons can use against a Jedi are, PHYSICAL impact weapons, couse all energy bolt are deflected too easy!

So, could u add the possibility to let Guns deflection depending from CSC? or maybe to get a disvantage maybe if i'm RUNNING to u while deflecting? just to put also normal weapons usefull vs a JEDI, it's too easy that a jedi can defleact lasers and blasters evrytime from Everypositions! it fore these waepons to be useless!

Then ok with the idea to increase damage vs not-saber users.

Would u be able to add the JETPACK ability in the game? just to recreate JANGO FETT - OBIWAN duels! Jatpack it's extremely cool and it can be easly balanced for Tournament leagues.

the idea to be able to PUSH saber throw is really good!

maybe u can add also physical attack like Punchs, with additional keys and low damage, they can stun for 1/3 second the enemy or something like that , it's just an idea!

--------

Just the main part of the discussion is to complete your excellent work on saber balance , and allow GUNS to be balanced with SABER.. not only in damage.. but also in STRATEGY.

Add Jetpack , twin saber and double saber and u'll have the NEW JEDI KNIGHT!

--------

Artifex, last thing, we are organizing this ladder and if u can contact me directly i'll be glad :D

My icq is : 35433605

Thanks

ArtifeX

09-29-2002, 04:07 PM

Avatar:

I'm actually working on something quite similar to what you're talking about. It will once and for all balance gunners and saberists so that battles between the two will become enjoyable for both sides.

I've sent you an ICQ recently. You can grab my ICQ from that message, or contact me at arsartifex@msn.com

CoreyGH

10-01-2002, 04:44 AM

Here's to hoping that some sort of saber throw balance will be included in the next version of Promod.

I know you've posted before about adding the ability to force push sabers out of the air and that's an interesting idea. However, I don't think we need to look any farther than the Single Player version for a solution to saber throw spamming: Blocking a thrown saber should knock the saber to the ground. This leaves the person who threw it very open and coupled with the added damage to persons not wielding a saber I think it balances saber throw nicely.

But mainly my point is that I hope some form of saber throw balancing gets added to the next promod update.

-Soylent Green

The Truthful Liar

10-01-2002, 05:37 AM

Wow, this ProMod is actually alot better than it's predecessor "Jedi Mod"

Great work, keep the ideas running :thumbsup:

ArtifeX

10-01-2002, 09:31 AM

CoreyGH:
yes, there's going to be several changes to the gameplay in beta 3 that will make people think very carefully before using saber throw.

AB_Legion:
:) glad you like it!

DeTRiTiC-iQ

10-01-2002, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

One thing I'll be doing for sure is giving the double saber style a heavy penalty to resisting a Defense Breaker, and low damage. My reasoning: you're using the sabers one-handed. Imagine trying to hit a baseball while holding the bat with only one hand.

Think about the fact that crossing twin blades (ie gives you an X) gives you a very powerful defence, twin-style is weak against powerful attacks if there is no warning, but if a Defense Breaker is a massive release of energy any sword fighter would read the body language a mile off giving them ample time to defend.

FatalStrike

10-01-2002, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

Think about the fact that crossing twin blades (ie gives you an X) gives you a very powerful defence, twin-style is weak against powerful attacks if there is no warning, but if a Defense Breaker is a massive release of energy any sword fighter would read the body language a mile off giving them ample time to defend.

An x is weak against a two hand strike. If you are holding a saber in each hand then you entire blocking strength is in your wrists. A two hands on the hilt strike however has your arms strength and weight in it (if its a heavy stike).

Wrists against upper bosy strength and weight? you be the judge.

An x should be better at blocking weapons fire, but should leave you vulnerable to being overpowered

This is all just my opinion by the way, I am open to argument on this.

Doctor Shaft

10-01-2002, 06:43 PM

First off, I am excited to hear that something like dual sabers, or even a 'lightstaff' get added into the game. I'm guessing he's only planning on dual sabers, and not Maul's weapon as well.

Regardless, I want these things just to add variety, and also because it will give me more joy when I use my NORMAL LIGHTSABER TO KILL THE FRESH DESIGNS OFF. :cool:

In terms of dual sabers, I also agree that it should not have an uber blocking ability. Blocking with two sabers is not more beneficial in the strength department. Creating an X is not going to create a really strong block. You can do some clever things with an X, but unless it is both of your arms in an X, I'm afraid most of the force will be going against your wrists. I could be wrong though.

Either way, I feel that the other two lightsaber designs should focus on completely different styles of fighting. There is an exceptional JK1 mod called Saber Battle X that took the old and decrepit JK1 engine and breathed new life into it. Of course, the game is still old and decrepit, hit detection sucks on that engine, etc. etc. But it did have a lightstaff and a lightsaber. No dual sabers though. Regardless, it was unfortunate that the lightstaff, with all of its smooth new animations (yeah, it is much easier to get animations going with JK1 now than it is to even think about JK2), it played more like a more powerful version of the lightsaber.

Firstly, I don't think dual sabers should be weak. Why? Well, here's the answer. why use something that gives me twice the offense, but does damage that would probably only do as much or a little more damage than blue stance (SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE, INCREASE POWER OF THE BLUE STANCE NEXT VERSION). Blue stance will do just fine, thank you. I would like it if it did as much damage as yellow stance. The clincher would be this. You can be on the offense a lot because with both sabers you've got twice as many swings out there at the same time, and if i'm not mistaken, Artifex is using one of those one armed stances from Tavion or whatever to do the job, so it'll still be pretty fast. Also, with the threat of doing the same damage as yellow, only twice as fast, people will have an incentive not to simply start swinging and clashing with someone that has two sabers. But as the trade off for having this great offensive advantage, there should be a significant defense penalty. Not because the guy doesn't know how to block well, but because they should be able to be overpowered.

What I don't want is a dual saber stance that does blue stance damage, only now it swings even faster (oh how useless, and if someone says it's not useless, then fine, how boring and unimaginative). This would be akin to just adding some cosmetics in the game rather than add a different and threatening style of play. It will also bring a ridiculous look to the game. Now you'll have one guy with two sabers mashing the buttons ferociously, and the other player, with lightsaber, knows that his yellow stance does more damage, so now we'll just see one guy with one saber swinging madly, killing the other guy with two sabers swinging madly. It'll just look silly. This dual saber thing should have the ability to out do other stances in the offensive advantage department. Not in terms of guard breaking, that's red stance, but in terms of who can put painful swings out. Another blue stance style would just mean another counter attack style, and we don't need that.

I'm guessing no lightstaff will be brought in because there's no way of implementing that without it looking silly or chaotic.

It would be great if that stance brought on a feel similar to Episode 2. Anakin has the offensive advantage, and Dooku is forced to defend himself, but at just the right moment, and one well placed swing, he eliminates Anakins offensive power, nearly finishing the battle altogether.

Haemon

10-01-2002, 07:14 PM

A few things about Promod real quick

1. While using lightning you should be completely open to attacks except for maybe guns. This would help cut down on people running around with their fingers on the lightning button.

2. DFA is fine just the way it is as long as it remains unblockable.

3. Is the dualsaber going to be easier kill somebody with because on the servers with dual blade enabled all you have to do is lunge of run around with speed in blue. If anything the dual blade should be harder to use but very deadly in the hands of an experienced player.

Thats it. Promod rules.
Kick is beautiful(in promod).

DeTRiTiC-iQ

10-01-2002, 08:04 PM

3. Agreed, read Salvatore books.

DeTRiTiC-iQ

10-01-2002, 08:13 PM

Can we just use: Lightsaber, Lightstaff and Dual-Sabers

Its getting hard to keep track of what people are talking about.

Watch Episode 1, when fighting 1vs1 Maul used only one blade, he needed the enhanced agility of a sword. Later when fighting two Jedi he switched to the staff, the lightstaff was a defensive weapon not an offensive one, sure potentially you can attack faster, but your choice of moves is limited.

Lightstaff should be the ultimate defensive weapon, however lethal attacks if the enemy's defense is downright poor

Lightsaber stances should be medium defense and attack with minor variations based on personal taste rather than a rock-paper-scissors system (ie to give fighters some character)

Dual-Sabers should have the fastest and most vicious offense at a defensive penalty, but still be able to defend against power attacks if your circumstances are right

I feel this gives each weapon their advantage but they can "borrow" the offensive/defensive advantages of the other weapons if the situation is right.

thehomicidalegg

10-02-2002, 02:02 AM

i agree with DeTRiTiC-iQ, using the light staff and dual sabres would gain attack/defence (lightstaff : defence ; dualsabres : offence) bonuses outside the conceivable range by using just 1 sabre. However, it should have severe penalties in defence/offence( the opposite ).

Also, perhaps a well timed accurate shot (large difference in csc values) will result in a dualsaberist loosing one of his/her sabres( think anakin ep2).

ArtifeX

10-02-2002, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

Think about the fact that crossing twin blades (ie gives you an X) gives you a very powerful defence, twin-style is weak against powerful attacks if there is no warning, but if a Defense Breaker is a massive release of energy any sword fighter would read the body language a mile off giving them ample time to defend.

I agree that two sabers can increase the likelyhood of blocking an attack, but that same block, crossed sabers or not, will still be weakened due to the fact that you're holding each saber with only one hand. It's all in the leverage.

Take the baseball and bat metaphor again: If you wanted to bunt the ball, which would be more effective, holding the bat in front of the ball with two widely-spaced hands, or with each hand holding a different bat and crossing them in front of the ball?

Also, there's unfortunately no "X" defense animation in the game. Since the animation tools were never released, all of us mod makers have to use only what's already in the game.

ArtifeX

10-02-2002, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
First off, I am excited to hear that something like dual sabers, or even a 'lightstaff' get added into the game. I'm guessing he's only planning on dual sabers, and not Maul's weapon as well.

Regardless, I want these things just to add variety, and also because it will give me more joy when I use my NORMAL LIGHTSABER TO KILL THE FRESH DESIGNS OFF. :cool:

Yes, when twin blades are implemented, that style will not be uber. It will be another fighting technique with its own strengths and weaknesses. *cough*style trump system*cough*

I'll probably implement Maul's saber as well, since it's in the code already anyway, but I really hate the super-hacked nature of it. Sticking yourself through the chest with the blade during a swing looks pretty silly.

...

Firstly, I don't think dual sabers should be weak. Why? Well, here's the answer. why use something that gives me twice the offense, but does damage that would probably only do as much or a little more damage than blue stance (SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE, INCREASE POWER OF THE BLUE STANCE NEXT VERSION). Blue stance will do just fine, thank you. I would like it if it did as much damage as yellow stance. The clincher would be this. You can be on the offense a lot because with both sabers you've got twice as many swings out there at the same time, and if i'm not mistaken, Artifex is using one of those one armed stances from Tavion or whatever to do the job, so it'll still be pretty fast. Also, with the threat of doing the same damage as yellow, only twice as fast, people will have an incentive not to simply start swinging and clashing with someone that has two sabers. But as the trade off for having this great offensive advantage, there should be a significant defense penalty. Not because the guy doesn't know how to block well, but because they should be able to be overpowered.

I'll probably slow down tavion's style a bit. It's ludicrously fast right now.

Twin sabers won't really need an offense bonus--it'll have the innate bonus of hitting twice as many times. It'll have a penalty to having its defense broken. Haven't decided on how much damage it'll do yet.

What I don't want is a dual saber stance that does blue stance damage, only now it swings even faster (oh how useless, and if someone says it's not useless, then fine, how boring and unimaginative). This would be akin to just adding some cosmetics in the game rather than add a different and threatening style of play. It will also bring a ridiculous look to the game. Now you'll have one guy with two sabers mashing the buttons ferociously, and the other player, with lightsaber, knows that his yellow stance does more damage, so now we'll just see one guy with one saber swinging madly, killing the other guy with two sabers swinging madly. It'll just look silly. This dual saber thing should have the ability to out do other stances in the offensive advantage department. Not in terms of guard breaking, that's red stance, but in terms of who can put painful swings out. Another blue stance style would just mean another counter attack style, and we don't need that.

I'm looking at some different angles on making twin sabers a really unique feeling style.

I'm guessing no lightstaff will be brought in because there's no way of implementing that without it looking silly or chaotic.

No plans for a lightstaff.

ArtifeX

10-02-2002, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by Haemon
A few things about Promod real quick

1. While using lightning you should be completely open to attacks except for maybe guns. This would help cut down on people running around with their fingers on the lightning button.

2. DFA is fine just the way it is as long as it remains unblockable.

3. Is the dualsaber going to be easier kill somebody with because on the servers with dual blade enabled all you have to do is lunge of run around with speed in blue. If anything the dual blade should be harder to use but very deadly in the hands of an experienced player.

Thats it. Promod rules.
Kick is beautiful(in promod).

1. That's on my list.

2. Ah, the DFA debate continues...

3. I'm going to try very hard to make twin sabers not suck. Same goes for Maul's double saber.

ArtifeX

10-02-2002, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Can we just use: Lightsaber, Lightstaff and Dual-Sabers

Its getting hard to keep track of what people are talking about.

Watch Episode 1, when fighting 1vs1 Maul used only one blade, he needed the enhanced agility of a sword. Later when fighting two Jedi he switched to the staff, the lightstaff was a defensive weapon not an offensive one, sure potentially you can attack faster, but your choice of moves is limited.

Lightstaff should be the ultimate defensive weapon, however lethal attacks if the enemy's defense is downright poor

Lightsaber stances should be medium defense and attack with minor variations based on personal taste rather than a rock-paper-scissors system (ie to give fighters some character)

Dual-Sabers should have the fastest and most vicious offense at a defensive penalty, but still be able to defend against power attacks if your circumstances are right

I feel this gives each weapon their advantage but they can "borrow" the offensive/defensive advantages of the other weapons if the situation is right.

Now you're getting it. The "Lightstaff", or double-bladed saber as I call it, will be very defensive, have extremely poor penetrative capabilities. It's going to be ideally suited to defending yourself in a crowd. A la episode 1.

Twin sabers will be made for very agressive offense, but will be very susceptible to being broken by more stable, stronger attacks. The idea will be that if your opponent is rushing you with twin sabers, then you're going to have to back off and play cat and mouse until you get the opening to break their defenses.

ArtifeX

10-02-2002, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by thehomicidalegg
Also, perhaps a well timed accurate shot (large difference in csc values) will result in a dualsaberist loosing one of his/her sabres( think anakin ep2).

hmmm....(taps fingers thoughtfully)

Doctor Shaft

10-02-2002, 10:07 AM

the double-bladed saber should be defensive, but I think in order to emulate it even more closely, it should be defensive when moving in the correct directions. Rather than make it a cool looking saber that is essentially blue stance, why not this.

Rather than make it premierly defensive, make it a defensive, but agile, style. So you have your quick strikes that are difficult to penetrate with, and in turn you have a defense that is difficult to pentrate... but only when you are moving back. If you decide to stand still, etc., you have a constant penalty, or when you're moving foward. Sideways and backswards, you get a good defensive bonus. Maul fought two jedi, but you'll also note that he was not advancing on them at all. He was also rarely holding his ground, usually holding ground when he knew he could block and then quickly counter attack.

It would be good to see a style which relied on giving ground to defend, and then at the right moments strike with moves that hardly penetrate, do decent damage, and occasionally using kick to keep the guy away.

I like the csc thing too.

The big question though is how would you ever assign all of these lightsaber styles in the force power menu. Also, let's not forget the guns.

With all of these new styles in, other players may be concerend that promod has become an exclusive sabers only game. I, for one, do not want this. In fact, if you asked me, the guns should be ramped up in damage.

I am ever curious as to how you plan to balance guns vs sabers 'once and for all'. Personally, what I don't like is that there are various guns that you could call 'low tier', and other guns that are 'high tier'.

'Low tier' would be the bryar, the st rifle, bowcaster. Currently, promod's sniper rifle requires a bit more force allocation and aiming to block, so i guess it's kinda in its own little world. However, it bothers me to know end that I can charge a stormtrooper rifle carrying person and two things happen.

1.) I swing at him, knowing that he has to blast me at least 8-10 times to kill me, and my one swing ends the fight. I don't even have to try to dodge the shots while dashing at him with force speed, unlike the rocket launcher or the repeater.

2.) I do block the shots, and some of them happen to bounce back at him. However, I also must hit him with his own shots 8-10 times, so he's basically free to fire away at me unless he's at point blank range, in which case I either try my luck using this method or go back to method 1.

Granted, these weapons should feel as if they are to be overwhelmed by a lightsaber. But on the same token, I think all the guns should really hurt. This way, if the saber is used skillfully, you can win, but if the gunner is clever, ala Jango Fett, the blaster can prove a deadly weapon to a jedi as well. Also, when gunners square off, rather than have a five minute slug fest, they would be faced with a match in which the one with the most precise aim and quicker reflexes wins, instead of the guy who knows how to use force jump the most efficiently.

Also. when we assign points to saber offense defense, what may really turn players off is if they go onto 'promod', and find that everyone is now toting a lightsaber, a dual-blade saber, and dual sabers all at once. that's five styles. Why should they ever use a gun, they're having so much fun running around with their twenty lightsaber custom looks.

Hopefully, you'll set things so that force points that are assigned to certain styles will prohibit the possibility for other styles.

Here's an example of a possible bad combination . A theoretically defensive double-bladed saber, that gets great defense and quick pokes, combined with a normal red stance lightsaber style. This guy now has the theoretically best defense and the ability to just randomly switch to the best offense. After swinging, he just switches back to best defense.

I don't know, I'm not saying that this will actually be a problem (I guarentee all of you that your fancy sabers will not daunt my use of the lightsaber. I've played against these othersabers in the past, and I'll do it again).

Hopefully 'momentum' or redirecting will be a factor in the lightsaber combat as well. And I would love to know what that new neutral force power is going to be. Please don't say something like 'safe fall' (useless) or like force dodge (don't need it).

MrCrusher

10-03-2002, 11:21 AM

Been hosting a server and I gets lots of new players asking questions and commenting on what they like and don't like.

Well, what they don't like is losing saber duels constantly. So, when saber dueling the only way to keep them interested and happy is to turn my back on them and stand completely still so they can stab me in the back. Or, you can run blindly around in circles hitting the attack button when they're safely out of range and hope they'll quickly dispatch you. **warning don't try this at home as you may pickup bad habits** The new player then starts commenting on how much they like the mod.

This reflects the only inherent problem with the mod, if you suck or haven't learned the skills you will never or rarely win - as the mod stresses skill over all else.

The current duel game type pits the best against the weakest, which is a HUGE game flaw.

Suggestion: when FFA multiple challenge duels are enabled then go one step further. Add a cvar that allows a FFA-Duel server to keep all sabers sheathed and force powers disabled until a challenge is initiated. (something similar to the JK2sp pre bar fight)

This would also make most maps in the game far more useful for dueling. And allow players to "choose" who they duel with and when. This is very, very important when a game has a solid skill requirement.

ArtifeX

10-03-2002, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
the double-bladed saber should be defensive, but I think in order to emulate it even more closely, it should be defensive when moving in the correct directions. Rather than make it a cool looking saber that is essentially blue stance, why not this.

...

It would be good to see a style which relied on giving ground to defend, and then at the right moments strike with moves that hardly penetrate, do decent damage, and occasionally using kick to keep the guy away.

This is what I'm hoping it will be like when I get it finished.

[i]
I like the csc thing too.

The big question though is how would you ever assign all of these lightsaber styles in the force power menu. Also, let's not forget the guns.
[/b]

(evil grin)

[i]
With all of these new styles in, other players may be concerend that promod has become an exclusive sabers only game. I, for one, do not want this. In fact, if you asked me, the guns should be ramped up in damage.

I am ever curious as to how you plan to balance guns vs sabers 'once and for all'. Personally, what I don't like is that there are various guns that you could call 'low tier', and other guns that are 'high tier'...
[/b]

I'm taking care of all of this in one fell swoop.

[i]
Also. when we assign points to saber offense defense, what may really turn players off is if they go onto 'promod', and find that everyone is now toting a lightsaber, a dual-blade saber, and dual sabers all at once. that's five styles. Why should they ever use a gun, they're having so much fun running around with their twenty lightsaber custom looks.

Hopefully, you'll set things so that force points that are assigned to certain styles will prohibit the possibility for other styles.

Here's an example of a possible bad combination . A theoretically defensive double-bladed saber, that gets great defense and quick pokes, combined with a normal red stance lightsaber style. This guy now has the theoretically best defense and the ability to just randomly switch to the best offense. After swinging, he just switches back to best defense.

I don't know, I'm not saying that this will actually be a problem (I guarentee all of you that your fancy sabers will not daunt my use of the lightsaber. I've played against these othersabers in the past, and I'll do it again).
[/b]

The "other" saber styles will be balanced with the normal styles (as close to it as I can get without massive open testing, anyway). There'll no doubt be room for tweaking when it's finished, though.

[i]
Hopefully 'momentum' or redirecting will be a factor in the lightsaber combat as well. And I would love to know what that new neutral force power is going to be. Please don't say something like 'safe fall' (useless) or like force dodge (don't need it). [/B]

I'm planning to mess around with momentum and see how much it messes with the feel of the game. As for the new force power...just have to wait and see. It will be exclusive to ProMod.

ArtifeX

10-03-2002, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by MrCrusher
Been hosting a server and I gets lots of new players asking questions and commenting on what they like and don't like.

Well, what they don't like is losing saber duels constantly. So, when saber dueling the only way to keep them interested and happy is to turn my back on them and stand completely still so they can stab me in the back. Or, you can run blindly around in circles hitting the attack button when they're safely out of range and hope they'll quickly dispatch you. **warning don't try this at home as you may pickup bad habits** The new player then starts commenting on how much they like the mod.

This reflects the only inherent problem with the mod, if you suck or haven't learned the skills you will never or rarely win - as the mod stresses skill over all else.

The current duel game type pits the best against the weakest, which is a HUGE game flaw.

Suggestion: when FFA multiple challenge duels are enabled then go one step further. Add a cvar that allows a FFA-Duel server to keep all sabers sheathed and force powers disabled until a challenge is initiated. (something similar to the JK2sp pre bar fight)

This would also make most maps in the game far more useful for dueling. And allow players to "choose" who they duel with and when. This is very, very important when a game has a solid skill requirement.

I've been thinking a lot about the learning curve for new players. ProMod has a lot of strategies and techniques to digest on top of the standard version's. At some point, I'm going to be implementing an in-game help feature that will briefly explain some aspects of the mod. Maybe some generous map maker will offer to do a training level similar to other fps's. (hint, hint) I'd do it myself, but I'm swamped with trying to get Beta 3 ready.

Enhancing the duel modes is something else on my very long list of things I'd like to do. Modifying private duels in multiplayer is probably the way I'll go, since players will only need to look at the scoreboard to see who would be a good challenge for them.

taboo

10-03-2002, 03:15 PM

Suggestion: when FFA multiple challenge duels are enabled then go one step further. Add a cvar that allows a FFA-Duel server to keep all sabers sheathed and force powers disabled until a challenge is initiated. (something similar to the JK2sp pre bar fight)

Fantastic idea! Coupling this with some user made multiple arena maps (similar in function to Heretic 2's blading arena maps) would make for some very fun & interesting dueling.

MrCrusher

10-03-2002, 05:51 PM

Hmm.. a training map. I've been looking for an excuse to start mapping again. Wonder how one could implement a training setup... may require a bit of coding.

JK1 had a simple hit feedback setup in Morgan's shop where Kyle first found his lightsaber. Depending on where you hit - that quadrant would light up.

Heretic 2 had an excellent training level, especially the hanging chicken at the end that registered damage feedback. When the chicken was hit there would be a print message that told you how much damage you did. Also hitting the upside-down dangling chicken would knock it away and if you didn't move quickly the chicken would swinging back into you doing damage or knocking you flat.

One way to train players might be using bots and slow motion duels. Slow motion Sword training and choreography in real life are usually done at half speed. I've done mapping with UnrealEd, if I remember correctly there was an excellent zoning setup allowing all sorts of matrix like enviorments, slow motion, low gravity etc. I'm not aware of any thing in QRadiant as feature filled.

If there were some way to register print messages as well during duels, that would reveal (according to the ghoul system) damage and location of attack damage. Could even print message feedback similar to RPG hit die rolls that registered blocks, parries, defense breaks etc.and the CSC challenge values between two opponents. RPGers would flock to this even for non training game play. This would seem easier to do than model damage decals, or damage skins.

A target dummy or model, or even world geometry made to look like a target dummy might work....

Training map... if I can be of help then let me know. FFA_Cloudshark is my first and only map with JKRadiant. This map was designed for multiple Duels with minimum geometry, great r_speed thus FPS.

MrCrusher

10-03-2002, 06:07 PM

Enhancing the duel modes is something else on my very long list of things I'd like to do. Modifying private duels in multiplayer is probably the way I'll go, since players will only need to look at the scoreboard to see who would be a good challenge for them.

Maybe even an enhanced score board that catigorizes the title occording to skill i.e. Many-wins/few-losses would hold a Jedi Master title on score board etc.

...or even add titles to the players-name per server. That way you could target an opponent and know who to run from or who to attack.... ;)

taboo

10-03-2002, 07:25 PM

Heretic 2 had an excellent training level, especially the hanging chicken at the end that registered damage feedback. When the chicken was hit there would be a print message that told you how much damage you did. Also hitting the upside-down dangling chicken would knock it away and if you didn't move quickly the chicken would swinging back into you doing damage or knocking you flat.

Yep, that was an excellent training level and it even made for a decent mp level too. Somehow, whacking the chicken was never satisfactory for me, I always wanted to choke it. :p

Message feedback during duels would be very helpful. You could have varying levels of feedback depending on how much info the player wants. Great idea.

CoreyGH

10-04-2002, 04:36 AM

For a simple feedback system without installing anything, start up a team based server (team ffa) and turn ON team damage and friendly saber. Then fight someone on your team. You can see how much damage you did to them in the upper righthand corner. Haven't tried this but I guess it should work.

-Soylent Green

ArtifeX

10-04-2002, 09:48 AM

Crusher: I'd love to have somebody do a training map, so if you'd like to give it a shot, then contact me at arsartifex@msn.com. Make sure to leave your lucasforums handle in the email so I know who you are.

I really like the idea of having a cvar that will allow the player to change the level of feedback that they get. Consider that on my short list for stuff to add in Beta 3. The big thing I think would help would be to have a numerical representation of your CSC value when attacking and defending with the saber. Maybe even some numerical damage indicators above the head of your enemies; red for health damage, green for shield damage. I've already planned to have the CSC flash white when sabers clash or when a body hit occurs to give people a better feel for when the CSC is being tested.

Sound could be used as well. Maybe I can rip the quake 3 "hit" tone and put that in for when damage is scored. The current saber damage sound is way too similar to the saber clash sound for my taste.

You guys got any more requests for visual/audio feedback?

CoreyGH

10-04-2002, 07:57 PM

Isn't there already a sound associated with scoring a hit? The person you hit screams when you hit them, and it's a different scream depending on how much health they have left. There are 4 different screams. Of course, some model authors have screwed this up by making all 4 of the scream sounds for their model identical but that's a whole other discussion.

What i'm getting at is, i think the audio indications of a hit are just fine as they are. It's a different sound AND the character screams. If you get a clash sound and it's too similar to the damage sound, then just listen for the guy screaming.

Listen to Luke. When he drops below 25hp he starts making this rediculous "Doi" sound.

-Soylent Green

thehomicidalegg

10-05-2002, 02:47 AM

except the audio thing isnt still absolutely right... sometimes i get a nick for 1 hp, and he lets loose a blood curldling scream as if he got quatered or something

CoreyGH

10-05-2002, 04:04 AM

No, it's actually working the way they meant it, albeit that way is kinda silly.

There's 4 sound files. One for 100hp-76hp, one for 75-51, one for 50-26, one for 25-1. (Give or take one point, I haven't checked.) The way it works, if you have 100 points and I wack you for 20, you do the 100-75 groan cause you're in that range. But if I'm at 30 and you nick me for 1, then I do the 50-26 scream cause i'm in that range.

The scream is more of a gauge of how many HP you have left , not how much damage that particular swing did.

ArtifeX

10-05-2002, 12:45 PM

Hmm, I'd think that the sound being triggered by the damage done would make more sense. Nicking them and getting a death-scream out of it is pretty silly, though I recognize the usefulness of knowing when your opponent is close to death.

I don't really think the screams are a very good feedback system, either. They're very subjective. Who really knows the difference between the 25-50 and 50-75 scream for every model, anyway?

I'll think about this some more.

Dath Maximus

10-05-2002, 03:18 PM

hmmm, keep up the work.

i might swing by the server some time soon

CoreyGH

10-07-2002, 10:14 PM

While it's true that no one really knows the difference in screams for all of the models, I don't think you need to know that to take advantage of the sound differences. Just pay attention while your fighting, if the scream changes then you know you've dropped them down another quarter of health.

Now that I think about it, that's better than having a yell that's based on how much damage you do to them. Then you really would have to memorize the different scream sounds for each model.

MrCrusher

10-08-2002, 07:53 AM

Currently damage feedback is in need of serious revision. Bumping someone with a saber gets the same "yelp" form the opponent as hitting them. Maybe a player model pain_sound could trigger at a much higher threshold. Each pain_sound could have its own threshold. Or the pain_sound could trigger at the threshold 75, 50, 25, 0 health only.

Excellent idea on the "health/shield" tag....Might even be as simple as a tag at the end of ones name "MrCrusher 10/25" seen simply by targeting. A cvar to enable and disable. And limit the range that health/shield can be viewed ....Melee range might be suitable. Otherwise snipers could steal frags etc.

The CSC could be a very useful place to add feedback, but there may need to be a stationary part, something that doesn't expand and contract, as the feedback meter. Or even the default targeting reticule could be added to.

Starting to sound like a Jedi targeting/combat HUD. Cool concept. Could even be added as a pickup. Grab your saber and your Jedi combat HUD and start dueling.... maybe part of another gametype...

Jah Warrior

10-08-2002, 10:19 AM

Beta schmeta,

When for the love of god are we gonna see a finished article. I'm not interested in beta testing I want a final version that we can start getting to grips with, not buggy crap.

ArtifeX

10-08-2002, 10:26 AM

I was thinking more along the lines of adding two small number pairs above the player's head; similar to the way the console icon appears. One would be red, and show the health damage taken, and the other would be green and reflect shield damage taken. These would only be visible to the player dealing out the damage, and only visible for a couple of seconds or until more damage was taken.

Hmm, maybe this would be an interesting expansion of Force Sight....

On the sounds thing again: don't you think that, even though it's useful to know how much health an enemy has by their pain sounds, that it's still very unrealistic? Pain sounds should act as feedback for the amount of damage delt out because the amount of damage you do is variable. You can't expect to dish out 90 points of damage with every Red swing -- that amount changes based on where you make contact in your swing animation. There is currently no mechanism in jk2 that tells you how much damage you deal with a saber swing. I'm proposing that (at the very least) the pain sound should act in that role.

CoreyGH

10-08-2002, 04:14 PM

Yes, that's absolutely true - pain screams based on remaining health isn't as realistic as pain screams based on amount of damage dealt. However, what I'm getting at is the whole memorizing-each-models-pain-sounds problem. The way it stands now, all I need to do is listen for a change in my opponant's scream to know I've nocked him down another quater of health. If the sounds were based on damage dealt, then that would only exacerbate the memorization situation. You'd have to know what you opponant's screams sound like before you go into battle.

For some reason I've been thinking about this for a bit so I'm going to put down some of the other things I've been mulling over.

Realism - I don't like the floating numbers above the head idea. Maybe as a force sight componant but even then it doesn't seem right. Since pain skins for each model would be a pain :D to implement I think an aural indication is still the best bet. (Though including the numbers for people to use as a training aid is still a great idea)

Usefulness - Personally, I think I'd rather know about how much health you have left, than about how much damage my swing did. I already have a general idea of how much damage each of my swings/kicks/saberthrows does and combined with a good indication of your remaining life I find that the most useful. That is, without resorting to some numerical indication.

Problems - Either of the sound solutions still fall prey to lazy/ill meaning model authors. If they make all their sound files identical or silent then all the efforts put into using sound as an effective damage feedback system are in vain. I guess the only real way around that is just community knowledge; promod server sysadmins and ladder/tournament organizers knowing which models shouldn't be loaded onto their servers for the above reasons. Of course, you can always turn on forcemodels but no one want's to do that; detracts from the game atmosphere.

I think promod's great and there won't be any changes that could push me back to vanilla JK2, however, I'd rather not see too many more HUD additions. If we start throwing up more numbers everywhere it'll feal more like I'm donning some sort of battle suit (ala Half-life) than playing as a Jedi.

Toonces

10-08-2002, 05:53 PM

It would be nice if some type of damage model could be incorperated within JKII, similar to how the cars in GTA3 break apart, but on a much more suttle scale. Bruises, diffrent body positions based on health, a slower run and swing speed when near death. It would be exelent additions to a game like this. I know it's not possible to add anything like this to the game with the limited tools that have been provided to us by Raven and LA.

I'm sure whatever you come up with ArtifeX will be great :)

ArtifeX

10-09-2002, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by CoreyGH
Yes, that's absolutely true - pain screams based on remaining health isn't as realistic as pain screams based on amount of damage dealt. However, what I'm getting at is the whole memorizing-each-models-pain-sounds problem. The way it stands now, all I need to do is listen for a change in my opponant's scream to know I've nocked him down another quater of health. If the sounds were based on damage dealt, then that would only exacerbate the memorization situation. You'd have to know what you opponant's screams sound like before you go into battle.
...

The problem with just listening for a change in pain sound is that, unless you've memorized all the pain sounds, then you'll never know how many "quarters" of health you knocked off of them. I agree that you'd have roughly the same problem if you used the sounds for damage-done feedback, but then at least the learning curve would be shorter because your knowledge would get reinforced every time you landed a swing--no guesswork involved.

Realism - I don't like the floating numbers above the head idea. Maybe as a force sight componant but even then it doesn't seem right. Since pain skins for each model would be a pain :D to implement I think an aural indication is still the best bet. (Though including the numbers for people to use as a training aid is still a great idea)

...

Problems - Either of the sound solutions still fall prey to lazy/ill meaning model authors. If they make all their sound files identical or silent then all the efforts put into using sound as an effective damage feedback system are in vain. I guess the only real way around that is just community knowledge; promod server sysadmins and ladder/tournament organizers knowing which models shouldn't be loaded onto their servers for the above reasons. Of course, you can always turn on forcemodels but no one want's to do that; detracts from the game atmosphere.

I hadn't thought about this. This is a very good point. I'm in the process of putting together a ProMod Map Pack full of well designed community maps. With the above problem in mind, I should probably do the same for models/skins as well.

I think promod's great and there won't be any changes that could push me back to vanilla JK2, however, I'd rather not see too many more HUD additions. If we start throwing up more numbers everywhere it'll feal more like I'm donning some sort of battle suit (ala Half-life) than playing as a Jedi.

I'm a big fan of visual feedback. Guess it's my background in UI design :D. With ProMod getting so complex (good thing IMO), the visual feedback is becoming more important than ever to teaching people how to play. For instance, I could just put the Bonus system in place without the Bonus Meters, but I think everyone will agree that the meters are super helpful in learning how that system works. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the better players start turning it off with the console command I provided once they've mastered it. I'll try to keep the "battlesuit" feel to a minimum.

ArtifeX

10-09-2002, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by Toonces
It would be nice if some type of damage model could be incorperated within JKII, similar to how the cars in GTA3 break apart, but on a much more suttle scale. Bruises, diffrent body positions based on health, a slower run and swing speed when near death. It would be exelent additions to a game like this. I know it's not possible to add anything like this to the game with the limited tools that have been provided to us by Raven and LA.
...

I dunno, it might be possible to add some kind of decals on top of the model skins. Not sure about this one, as it involves areas of the code that I haven't looked at yet. I'd be open to suggestions from anyone who's done work with damage decal systems.

I do know that adjusting the models themselves isn't possible except by storing multiple instances of the model pieces. You'd need one for each body part. I don't think that'd be feasible with the way the code is currently written; or if it was, it be big in the hardware requirement department.

ArtifeX

10-09-2002, 09:31 AM

A little update on how beta 3's progressing:

Saber Stance Trump System - Blue trumps Yellow trumps Red trumps Blue. What do I mean by this? Essentially, if you use Blue against Yellow, then you get a +5 to both your offensive and defensive CSC checks, and the Yellow-using player gets a -5 to off/def against you. This is going to add a whole new dimension to the saber vs. saber combat. You'll have to anticipate your opponent's choice of stance and use the appropriate trump (if you want the trump bonus--you won't have to have it, but it helps) while trying to use deceit to mask your own choice of style.

Another big thing this will do is force players who have heretofore used only one style to learn all three in order to compete on a high level.

Note: This bonus is significant, but not significant enough to keep a player with great aim from beating an opponent with poor aim, but who has a Trumping bonus. Aim remains the most important factor, and it always will be.

It's going to be a great test of your skill to remain dominant using only one Stance now.

Strong Stance Chaining - Red style has been reborn. I cannot emphasize enough how much different this style feels just by removing the 45-degree chaining requirement. It now feels almost exactly like a chainable 1.02 red stance. Maximum number of chained attacks remains set at 3.

There are some really wicked combination swings possible now, but I'll leave those to you guys to figure out.

I was initially going to make other changes to Strong Stance, but after doing this, they're no longer necessary. Strong is now on equal footing with both of the other stances.

Darth Kaan

10-09-2002, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by Jah Warrior
Beta schmeta,

When for the love of god are we gonna see a finished article. I'm not interested in beta testing I want a final version that we can start getting to grips with, not buggy crap.

ArtifeX is working on it sony boy just relax. What he is doing takes time and effort. Move along now, whiners in the back.

MrCrusher

10-09-2002, 10:11 AM

Ref: Map & content add-ins.

Something to consider. Do two or more independent pak. files: one for the Mod and another's for the maps and various content. When my server is up I'm getting lots of ProMod uploads and if maps were included in the ProMod pak. - client upload times would multiply by a huge factor.

This assumes that content is uploaded to clients per pak. I think thats how it works? ;)

ArtifeX

10-09-2002, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by MrCrusher
Ref: Map & content add-ins.

Something to consider. Do two or more independent pak. files: one for the Mod and another's for the maps and various content. When my server is up I'm getting lots of ProMod uploads and if maps were included in the ProMod pak. - client upload times would multiply by a huge factor.

This assumes that content is uploaded to clients per pak. I think thats how it works? ;)

This is my understanding as well. There'll end up being one .pk3 file for every pack: map pack, model/skin pack. That way, I'll be able to add more packs as more quality content is released, and people won't be forced to download packs they already have.

Jah Warrior

10-09-2002, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by Darth Kaan

ArtifeX is working on it sony boy just relax. What he is doing takes time and effort. Move along now, whiners in the back.

my point is that it should not have been releasded in such an unfinished state be it a beta version. And for the record, beta 1 was better than beta 2, less bugs.

ArtifeX

10-09-2002, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by Jah Warrior
...And for the record, beta 1 was better than beta 2, less bugs.

I was unaware that there were more bugs in beta 2 than beta 1. Make sure to let me know which bugs you've found in case no one else has reported them.

Jah Warrior

10-09-2002, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

I was unaware that there were more bugs in beta 2 than beta 1. Make sure to let me know which bugs you've found in case no one else has reported them.

spinning specials in beta 2 were not there in beta 1

Darth Kaan

10-09-2002, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

spinning specials in beta 2 were not there in beta 1

Interesting, I play beta 2 all the time and the only special that allows spinning is The yellow finisher.

Out of curiosity could you please be more specific? I ask this because "Spinning specials" is a plural term.

Jah Warrior

10-09-2002, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by Darth Kaan

Interesting, I play beta 2 all the time and the only special that allows spinning is The yellow finisher.

Out of curiosity could you please be more specific? I ask this because "Spinning specials" is a plural term.

well artifex knows about this, but for your benefit:-

ALL the specials are spinnable when playing promod beta 2, and thats from the initial install. I could even run around 'during' the yellow finisher, spin the blue lunge and turn red specials. Admittedy this was intermittent and can not be reproduced on demand but none the less it happened frequently. This simply didnt happen in beta 1.

ArtifeX

10-09-2002, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

well artifex knows about this, but for your benefit:-

ALL the specials are spinnable when playing promod beta 2, and thats from the initial install. I could even run around 'during' the yellow finisher, spin the blue lunge and turn red specials. Admittedy this was intermittent and can not be reproduced on demand but none the less it happened frequently. This simply didnt happen in beta 1.

Not to worry. The fix for this is in Beta 3 and working fine. It only happens when an enemy clashes sabers with you in mid-swing and your aim relative to them is poor enough for you to be knocked into a defense breaker.

CoreyGH

10-09-2002, 06:03 PM

Is there any kind of cap on CSC bonuses? I'm not saying one way or the other that there needs to be, I'm just curious since the bonus meters are finite and you can max out the attack bonus meter just by running forward with strong stance. So, if I'm using Red stance (+5) and I swing and hit your saber (+5) and you're using blue (+5 for trumping you) and I'm running forward (+5) does all this stop somewhere or do I get the complete +20 bonus?

Can you give us an idea of how much the bonus is for falling? Like how much would it be for falling from the maximum height of a level 3 force jump?

You mention that the +10 trumping bonus is "significant" What exactly do these numbers relate to? Better yet, since combat strength is based on aim, if I have a +5 bonus, how many degrees off center can my aim be while still giving me the same combat strength number that I'd get if I had perfect aim and no +5 bonus?

(As I type this, I keep thinking of better ways to ask what is kind of the same question)

In the Beta 2 strategy guide there's a colored chart that shows what happens when 2 sabers collide; and the 2 chart axis are based on attacker and defender CS respectively. Both axis stop at 100

If I have a large CS bonus, does it only increase the degree range in which I have to aim to reach a score of 100, or can I pass 100 with good enough aim? In effect, If we're both aiming perfectly and our sabers hit, and I have a +15 bonus (for whatever reason) do we get a saber bounce/lock cause our CSs are equal or do I gain an advantage for my bounus? (that's not to say that an increased target size isn't enough of a bonus)

Man, just asking this question has given me a better understanding of what's going on with saber combat in promod.

COMPLETELY UNRELATED REQUEST TO FOLLOW. . .
Can we set the bot-minimum-players on your server to 2? Sometimes I join the server when there's no one there in hopes that it will prompt others to show up. If I had a bot to smack around with my 733t pr0m0d skiz-nilz I'd be able to wait around a lot longer and not get bored as quick.

:EDIT:
By the way, thanks for taking the time to answer all our questions AND code this mod at the same time.

-Soylent Green

Toonces

10-09-2002, 07:16 PM

You know, that's actually a pretty good idea CoreyGH. Set it so there is two bots running when nobody is on the server, and once a real person joins kick one of the bots, and when a second player joins, just kick the other bot. Might encourage more people to join

Doctor Shaft

10-09-2002, 10:06 PM

Oh yeah, I should thank you as well about doing this mod. Like Rage before you with JK2++, you have my sincerest appreciation and following. You've done and are doing unbelievable work.

And back to my whining and nagging. I'm guessing with all the other important things being worked on, I guess who have decided not to, or can't really do anything about, the following things.

1.)Momentum besides when jumping. Will it have more of an effect, i.e all that weird stupid blocking stuff I constantly post about.

2.) Force rage and protect. Any tweaks, csc bonuses there? I guess rage doesn't need anything, you can already swing like a demon. Protect......... it's both an impractical power and almost lame power. Against guns, this power is useless as stun baton. AGainst a lightsaber, it's both super annoying and sometimes super effective.

3.) Tell me what your new force power is now!!!!!!! Oh yeah, if you don't tell me, will it be like really useful, something that adds to gameplay, might even be almost a neccesity, or is like 'force hand wave".

Thanks again Artifex, you got some appreciating from some of us. We value your work.

Darth Kaan

10-09-2002, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

well artifex knows about this, but for your benefit:-

ALL the specials are spinnable when playing promod beta 2, and thats from the initial install. I could even run around 'during' the yellow finisher, spin the blue lunge and turn red specials. Admittedy this was intermittent and can not be reproduced on demand but none the less it happened frequently. This simply didnt happen in beta 1.

Hmmm, okay. I guess I am just lucky then. I, along with the group of 20 who frequent my brothers private server play at least two hours of Promod a day in Duel, FFA, and CTF type games and none of us have EVER experienced spinning Red or Blue specials.

Jah Warrior

10-09-2002, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by Darth Kaan

Hmmm, okay. I guess I am just lucky then. I, along with the group of 20 who frequent my brothers private server play at least two hours of Promod a day in Duel, FFA, and CTF type games and none of us have EVER experienced spinning Red or Blue specials.

Yeah well theres nothing out of teh ordinary here, if it can happen to me it can certainly potentially happen to others so if i found a bug and now artifex has fixed it, then cool!

ArtifeX

10-13-2002, 10:27 PM

Hey, wow. The forum's back up.

I'm going to respond to some of the above posts in the morning, but I just gotta spill the beans on an addition to beta 3 that I just finished: the new RGB saber code.

No, it's not tchouky's code. This has been written from scratch.

The basic idea is that all sabers still have a white core, but they have two outer glows, both of which are customizeable. You can fully adjust both of those colors any way you like. The kicker is that you can do this with an in-game ui in the player setup menu that uses the usual lightsaber graphic as a real-time representation of the colors you're working with.

I'll post a pic or two in just a bit. :D

*edit* Here's a couple of (large) pics of the ingame saber and the setup screen.

http://www.oculis.org/promod/img/yellow_red_setup.jpg

http://www.oculis.org/promod/img/yellow_red.jpg

You guys have no idea how hard this was to do. I'm going to bed. Right after a big glass of scotch! (Dalmour, single malt = yummy)

Deetox187

10-13-2002, 10:37 PM

Wow that sounds awesome, but did you make a new core to go with the sabers? the default core sucks and is totally innacurate to the movies.

ArtifeX

10-13-2002, 10:54 PM

Here's a bit more subtle set:

http://www.oculis.org/promod/img/white_blue.jpg

http://www.oculis.org/promod/img/white_blue_setup.jpg

Deetox187

10-13-2002, 11:21 PM

Well i guess that answers my question about the core, no biggie i can replace it myself.

Looks really really good, nice work and enjoy the scotch lol.

thehomicidalegg

10-14-2002, 01:52 AM

hehe pretty sabres... that'll get more ppl to dl this :)

acdcfanbill

10-14-2002, 02:21 AM

just a note on that second pictures Artifex, but it looks to me like you have the inner color set to blue and the outer color set to white, perhaps this is correct, but its sounds backwards to me, perhaps u could clairfy.. :D

ArtifeX

10-14-2002, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by acdcfanbill
just a note on that second pictures Artifex, but it looks to me like you have the inner color set to blue and the outer color set to white, perhaps this is correct, but its sounds backwards to me, perhaps u could clairfy.. :D

Actually, you're correct. The outer glow is white, the inner glow is blue, and the core is (as always) white. Just thought I'd put that in as another example.

Nice thing about having the colors set up like this is that the core will always be visible no matter what someone sets their colors to.

ArtifeX

10-14-2002, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by Deetox187
Well i guess that answers my question about the core, no biggie i can replace it myself.

Looks really really good, nice work and enjoy the scotch lol.

I've been thinking of altering the saber art to more closely match the movies. If you want, post some pics here of what you think the saber should look like and I'll modify the current art to see how it looks.

ArtifeX

10-14-2002, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by CoreyGH
Is there any kind of cap on CSC bonuses? I'm not saying one way or the other that there needs to be, I'm just curious since the bonus meters are finite and you can max out the attack bonus meter just by running forward with strong stance. So, if I'm using Red stance (+5) and I swing and hit your saber (+5) and you're using blue (+5 for trumping you) and I'm running forward (+5) does all this stop somewhere or do I get the complete +20 bonus?

There is no cap on the bonuses. The meter is just an approximation of your current bonus. As it stands now, each "tick" is worth 1 bonus point. That will be changing in beta 3 to being worth 2 points each to allow for higher perceivable values.

Can you give us an idea of how much the bonus is for falling? Like how much would it be for falling from the maximum height of a level 3 force jump?

There's a limit of +40 currently, I believe. Have to check to be sure.

You mention that the +10 trumping bonus is "significant" What exactly do these numbers relate to? Better yet, since combat strength is based on aim, if I have a +5 bonus, how many degrees off center can my aim be while still giving me the same combat strength number that I'd get if I had perfect aim and no +5 bonus?

It's not a linear scale. Bonus points are more significant as your aim improves. So, if you keep your csc directly aimed at someone, then:

+10 = 25 degrees
+5 = ~18 degrees

As you turn away from them, each point of bonus becomes less and less significant. Using this system ensures that someone with lousy aim isn't going to suddenly strike a much better prepared opponent just because he stumbled into some bonus by accident.

Bonuses are ususally the determining factor between two players who are highly skilled, but mean less for the under-skilled. This eases up those new to the game also.

(As I type this, I keep thinking of better ways to ask what is kind of the same question)

In the Beta 2 strategy guide there's a colored chart that shows what happens when 2 sabers collide; and the 2 chart axis are based on attacker and defender CS respectively. Both axis stop at 100

If I have a large CS bonus, does it only increase the degree range in which I have to aim to reach a score of 100, or can I pass 100 with good enough aim? In effect, If we're both aiming perfectly and our sabers hit, and I have a +15 bonus (for whatever reason) do we get a saber bounce/lock cause our CSs are equal or do I gain an advantage for my bounus? (that's not to say that an increased target size isn't enough of a bonus)

Man, just asking this question has given me a better understanding of what's going on with saber combat in promod.

Yes, your score can go well above 100 with bonuses included. There is a limit ( that +40 i mentioned above, though it may change ).

COMPLETELY UNRELATED REQUEST TO FOLLOW. . .
Can we set the bot-minimum-players on your server to 2? Sometimes I join the server when there's no one there in hopes that it will prompt others to show up. If I had a bot to smack around with my 733t pr0m0d skiz-nilz I'd be able to wait around a lot longer and not get bored as quick.

I'll definitely set that up when i get home.

:EDIT:
By the way, thanks for taking the time to answer all our questions AND code this mod at the same time.

-Soylent Green

:D

ArtifeX

10-14-2002, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
...And back to my whining and nagging. I'm guessing with all the other important things being worked on, I guess who have decided not to, or can't really do anything about, the following things.

1.)Momentum besides when jumping. Will it have more of an effect, i.e all that weird stupid blocking stuff I constantly post about.

I'm seriously considering adding momentum as another aspect to deal with. I haven't plotted out all the details, but it'll allow you to use your swings and movement direction to alter your opponent's velocity if his defenses are weak enough.

2.) Force rage and protect. Any tweaks, csc bonuses there? I guess rage doesn't need anything, you can already swing like a demon. Protect......... it's both an impractical power and almost lame power. Against guns, this power is useless as stun baton. AGainst a lightsaber, it's both super annoying and sometimes super effective.

I agree with protect being pretty useless against a gunner unless you've already got high health and shields. I'm not doing anything to it directly in Beta 3, but it shouldn't be a problem anymore, either.

3.) Tell me what your new force power is now!!!!!!! Oh yeah, if you don't tell me, will it be like really useful, something that adds to gameplay, might even be almost a neccesity, or is like 'force hand wave".

Sorry. :) Keeping that one under my hat for now. You'll get to see it in a couple of weeks. Patience! I can say it'll get used a ton. Probably more than Push/Pull, but less than absorb/drain.

lost8_again

10-14-2002, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

The problem with just listening for a change in pain sound is that, unless you've memorized all the pain sounds, then you'll never know how many "quarters" of health you knocked off of them. I agree that you'd have roughly the same problem if you used the sounds for damage-done feedback, but then at least the learning curve would be shorter because your knowledge would get reinforced every time you landed a swing--no guesswork involved.

I hadn't thought about this. This is a very good point. I'm in the process of putting together a ProMod Map Pack full of well designed community maps. With the above problem in mind, I should probably do the same for models/skins as well.

I'm a big fan of visual feedback. Guess it's my background in UI design :D. With ProMod getting so complex (good thing IMO), the visual feedback is becoming more important than ever to teaching people how to play. For instance, I could just put the Bonus system in place without the Bonus Meters, but I think everyone will agree that the meters are super helpful in learning how that system works. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the better players start turning it off with the console command I provided once they've mastered it. I'll try to keep the "battlesuit" feel to a minimum.

This is something that should've been dealt with by lucasarts(sorry artifex, but thank you)it is very annoying when you see about 20 swings that you KNOW were properly landed by you and STILL lose the match due to lack of signals of pain or fatigue:(
On some maps you see a visual representation of the shields being affected when attacked. Why can't the color of the shield signal change per the amount of damage dealt?
With this you pretty much know where you stand(or maybe something more subtle as to not give away the slight element of surprise)like a red shield signal when players health is beneath say...35. In JK1 this was far better than it is in JK2(?)Anyway I'm just tired of timing beautiful swings and landing them only to take away 1hp(???)I know I know promod eliminates this but it should have been dealt with by Raven and not left up to the community to have to deal with.

DanVan

10-14-2002, 11:05 AM

Do any of you guys play on european servers (preferably uk)?

I love promod, I tried vanilla again last night and absolutely hated every minute of its lameness.

However, I'm finiding it a real struggle to find local servers with human players. I now have to read a book while sitting in a server, hoping someone will join :(

Even more worrying, most players I bump into have no idea what promod is, they "just downloaded it - what does it do" <sigh>, it seems that Promod's popularity is low (at least in europe).

Someone, please tell me I am imagining this, that suddenly everyone will play it when it leaves beta or that there is a hidden server of joy, full of low ping promod lovers near me.

Has anyone any ideas why not many people are playing promod, and how we might increase the number of people playing?

Without promod, I really can't really imagine playing JKII much more...

Cheers
DanVan

ArtifeX

10-14-2002, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by DanVan
Do any of you guys play on european servers (preferably uk)?

I love promod, I tried vanilla again last night and absolutely hated every minute of its lameness.

However, I'm finiding it a real struggle to find local servers with human players. I now have to read a book while sitting in a server, hoping someone will join :(

Even more worrying, most players I bump into have no idea what promod is, they "just downloaded it - what does it do" <sigh>, it seems that Promod's popularity is low (at least in europe).

Someone, please tell me I am imagining this, that suddenly everyone will play it when it leaves beta or that there is a hidden server of joy, full of low ping promod lovers near me.

Has anyone any ideas why not many people are playing promod, and how we might increase the number of people playing?

Without promod, I really can't really imagine playing JKII much more...

Cheers
DanVan

The major problem is, as you said, that very few people know what ProMod does/is. There were tons of people playing Beta 1 because of all the press it got at jediknighii.net, jk2files.com, jedi-outcast.com and moddb.com. Unfortunately, jediknightii.net was having news update problems when Beta 2 was released, and they never managed to post any news about it. That hurt the mod big time.

If you'd like to see more people in the servers, then just try to pass the word as much as possible. Most of the regular ProMod players have established groups that they tend to play with on a regular basis. It might be a good idea to start a new thread asking for UK promod players to make themselves known, and tell what servers they play on and when.

I've been speaking with the admins of several large tournaments, and www.ngi.it is having a ~5000 person tournament the weekend of oct. 25th. I'm hoping...no, I will have Beta 3 ready to go by then. They've already said that they're going to set up their next major tournament to use ProMod. Following that, I'm sure that it'll be getting some major press. Hopefully that will up the number of players out there.

ArtifeX

10-14-2002, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by lost8_again

...
On some maps you see a visual representation of the shields being affected when attacked. Why can't the color of the shield signal change per the amount of damage dealt?
With this you pretty much know where you stand(or maybe something more subtle as to not give away the slight element of surprise)like a red shield signal when players health is beneath say...35.

Hmm. you raise an interesting idea here. Changing the shader on the shield already happens based on the strength of the shield, but it's not very apparent. maybe exaggerating this would help.

Maybe changing the normal crosshair color to be Light Green when locked on an enemy, then have it fade from light green to yellow to orange to red based on current enemy health would be a good way of relating that information.

Both of these are very doable. I'll think about it.

lost8_again

10-14-2002, 12:15 PM

:)(thank you)
I'm not the type to throw out an idea and not feel obligated to help in some way. I got a little bit of coding skill and need to get involved in a game project(hinthint)If I knew where to start with this code I'M SURE i could come to the table with somethin:)
In any case I've been following your work to some degree and think its the most promising of the work being with this game(you da man)With the saber damage I think its important to know where you stand(I would like to do a manual block, hit/combo counter, special move power-up gauge, etc.)especially when you land hits successively
Originally posted by ArtifeX

Hmm. you raise an interesting idea here. Changing the shader on the shield already happens based on the strength of the shield, but it's not very apparent. maybe exaggerating this would help.

Maybe changing the normal crosshair color to be Light Green when locked on an enemy, then have it fade from light green to yellow to orange to red based on current enemy health would be a good way of relating that information.

Both of these are very doable. I'll think about it.

Deetox187

10-14-2002, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

I've been thinking of altering the saber art to more closely match the movies. If you want, post some pics here of what you think the saber should look like and I'll modify the current art to see how it looks.

Ok heres a few pics to give you an idea, i'll try to find more later if i can. Basically the edges of the core should be straight and the tip rounded off.

http://www.imagesjournal.com/2002/reviews/starwars/pic5.jpg

http://i.timeinc.net/time/covers/1101020429/gallery/images/gallery_2.jpg

http://galactic-voyage.com/images/Episode%20II/Yoda%20vs%20Dooku.jpg

ArtifeX

10-14-2002, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Deetox187

Ok heres a few pics to give you an idea, i'll try to find more later if i can. Basically the edges of the core should be straight and the tip rounded off.

definitely get me as many of those as possible. Also, if you can find some from episode 1 and the other for comparison that'd be awesome. I'd just like to see how they changed.

ArtifeX

10-14-2002, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by lost8_again
...With the saber damage I think its important to know where you stand(I would like to do a manual block, hit/combo counter, special move power-up gauge, etc.)especially when you land hits successively

I'm rather violently opposed to a manual block button. If you're like me, you've got every key on the left hand side of the keyboard and every control on your mouse bound to something already. I sure as hell don't want to have another press-and-hold button to worry with. Imagine trying to move backward+left while crouching and holding down some manual blocking key. Which fingers are you planning on using for that? Pinky's crouching, ring finger's moving left, middle's moving back, index is hovering over the strafe right key, and thumb's on the spacebar for jump. That leaves your right hand, which is on the mouse. I'll tell you right now that press-and-hold functions on the mouse generally screw with your aim. That's just way too many buttons for too few fingers.

Also, a press-and-hold button like that would get abused very quickly by scripters. They'd very quickly script something that turned on blocking all the time unless they were attacking. All you'd need to do would be to bind something like:

bind x "-block;wait;+attack;wait;+block;"

Then you're back to where you started with 1.04: you're invulnerable when not swinging your saber, or facing away from your opponent (or the 1.04 saber clipping bug rears its head).

The special move power up gauge is similar to the current bonus meters. I'll be doing something with them in Beta 3 which should make things interesting.

lost8_again

10-14-2002, 02:11 PM

SOB your right(LOLOLOLOL)
although I beg to differ with total invulnerability when not swinging I find that you'll still get hit(I tried that...)the only defense I find(if you can call it that)is timing a swing to meet at either the say, first 2 frames(whoa)of the opponents swing or the last 2-3 frames of that swing(???)anyway, it works(almost). I will say that standing idle can be a better defense for SOME attacks(diagonal slashes)
PS
for a complete reference on the way blocking, auto or manual should be done, study Street Fighter 2+.

Originally posted by ArtifeX

I'm rather violently opposed to a manual block button. If you're like me, you've got every key on the left hand side of the keyboard and every control on your mouse bound to something already. I sure as hell don't want to have another press-and-hold button to worry with. Imagine trying to move backward+left while crouching and holding down some manual blocking key. Which fingers are you planning on using for that? Pinky's crouching, ring finger's moving left, middle's moving back, index is hovering over the strafe right key, and thumb's on the spacebar for jump. That leaves your right hand, which is on the mouse. I'll tell you right now that press-and-hold functions on the mouse generally screw with your aim. That's just way too many buttons for too few fingers.

Also, a press-and-hold button like that would get abused very quickly by scripters. They'd very quickly script something that turned on blocking all the time unless they were attacking. All you'd need to do would be to bind something like:

bind x "-block;wait;+attack;wait;+block;"

Then you're back to where you started with 1.04: you're invulnerable when not swinging your saber, or facing away from your opponent (or the 1.04 saber clipping bug rears its head).

The special move power up gauge is similar to the current bonus meters. I'll be doing something with them in Beta 3 which should make things interesting.

ArtifeX

10-14-2002, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by lost8_again
SOB your right(LOLOLOLOL)
although I beg to differ with total invulnerability when not swinging I find that you'll still get hit(I tried that...)the only defense I find(if you can call it that)is timing a swing to meet at either the say, first 2 frames(whoa)of the opponents swing or the last 2-3 frames of that swing(???)anyway, it works(almost). I will say that standing idle can be a better defense for SOME attacks(diagonal slashes)
PS
for a complete reference on the way blocking, auto or manual should be done, study Street Fighter 2+.

The blocking of 1.04 is really screwy. It defies description until you pore through the source code.

Not sure that SF2 would be the best example of blocking for a 3d shooter. Problem is that you need to be able to block and move at the same time. SF2 forced you to stay still.

Xzzy

10-15-2002, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

Not sure that SF2 would be the best example of blocking for a 3d shooter. Problem is that you need to be able to block and move at the same time. SF2 forced you to stay still.

This is why the subject of "blocking" in this game requires not thinking in terms of actually stopping a blade, but completely avoiding it.

Conscious blocking just won't work. Swings are too fast, too frequent, and the dynamics of a situation change too fast for actual block commands to be effective. Players in this game move around several times more than traditional sword fighters would, and do it with greater agility and speed as well.

In other words players already have the tools available to avoid damage. In stock jk2 this is the only measure of player skills.. who can avoid everyone else the best.

In my perfect world it seems like the game would benefit from FEWER blocks, because few things are more frustrating than creeping up on two or three combatants, launching your attack, then spending the next 5 seconds with your saber flying around as everybody riccochets off everyone else. If you don't know what I mean, find any no force server on ffa_bespin. Watch the melee mess that inevitably happens in the center of the map.. it's almost ALWAYS going to be a frustrating chaos of saber flashes as people bounce off each other, with almost no actual attacks going on (unless someone dives into the fray with a DFA).

I like promod a lot, but with the enhanced blocking system granted via CSC, the situation in large scale melees is even worse.. you almost never kill anyone intentionally, the only way they die is if they walk into your saber after it gets parried.

If nimble feet were treated as the best defense one could have, the issue of a blocking key would be nonexistant. From what I understand of medieval swordplay, most of fighting did NOT involve swords banging together and making pretty sparks. Swords were hideously expensive, and hitting your edge against someone else's sword was a really good way to ruin the edge. Most of sword combat revolved around just plain not getting hit.. parries were usually acts of desperation.

Does it make sense to do that in a game? Ie, is it fun? I dunno for sure. It seems like the groundwork is already there for promoting a nimble-foot defense and it works well for a skilled player. So I guess the question is to decide whether more blocks would be a good thing, or less blocks would be a good thing. ;)

ArtifeX

10-15-2002, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Xzzy
...
I like promod a lot, but with the enhanced blocking system granted via CSC, the situation in large scale melees is even worse.. you almost never kill anyone intentionally, the only way they die is if they walk into your saber after it gets parried.

If nimble feet were treated as the best defense one could have, the issue of a blocking key would be nonexistant. From what I understand of medieval swordplay, most of fighting did NOT involve swords banging together and making pretty sparks. Swords were hideously expensive, and hitting your edge against someone else's sword was a really good way to ruin the edge. Most of sword combat revolved around just plain not getting hit.. parries were usually acts of desperation.

Does it make sense to do that in a game? Ie, is it fun? I dunno for sure. It seems like the groundwork is already there for promoting a nimble-foot defense and it works well for a skilled player. So I guess the question is to decide whether more blocks would be a good thing, or less blocks would be a good thing. ;)

What you're suggesting sounds a lot like how saber combat worked in jk1. There, saber combat was a bit more like a joust with players circling and darting at each other, hoping to catch the other player with his timing not quite right.

You've got the same option in jk2 already. You can just move to stay out of range of whatever swing comes your way. Taking the blocking out of jk2 completely would be removing one defensive option from the player's repertoire.

The blocking of 1.04 is completely over the top. You block nearly everything. I've seen simple private duels go on for 8, 10 or even 15 minutes due to this.

Promod's blocking is much, much less frequent, and is totally dependent on your aim and that of your opponent. If you're finding that both players are blocking a lot, then that's only because they're evenly matched. Someone with excellent aim will tear apart a target who tends to let their crosshair stray.

Make sure to drop by this Thursday. I've started a regular match night in my server for experienced players and those who are new to the game.

lost8_again

10-15-2002, 05:08 PM

(I would love to here about the source:)
In regards to the SF2 example u are right in some ways.
ALthough essentially, it makes the point of progressive hit frame
detection/ prediction. If a player stands idle, moves, or actually swings then the puter(com) makes the determination of what happens next(won't go into ex's)So in theory, swings can actually be a means of blocking(the way swords do)if 2 players were idle(take a guess)but the way JK2 does it, everytime 2 swings clash at the same point of their progress a clash occurs(???)
That was my main point, but it is VERRRRRYYY different in 3D(and while moving:)
Originally posted by ArtifeX

The blocking of 1.04 is really screwy. It defies description until you pore through the source code.

Not sure that SF2 would be the best example of blocking for a 3d shooter. Problem is that you need to be able to block and move at the same time. SF2 forced you to stay still.

ArtifeX

10-16-2002, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by Deetox187

Ok heres a few pics to give you an idea, i'll try to find more later if i can. Basically the edges of the core should be straight and the tip rounded off.

Ask, and ye shall receive! This work for ya? :D

http://www.oculis.org/promod/img/newblades1.jpg
http://www.oculis.org/promod/img/newblades2.jpg

Deetox187

10-16-2002, 12:00 PM

Wow that looks really good nice job, you work pretty fast lol. I think the tip could still use a bit of touchup though, the roundness is looking good but is it possible to make that little nub on the end where you edited it a little less visible? probably not since all the custom sabers seem to suffer from that, but maybe you can fiddle with it a bit..

Also its kind of hard to tell from the pics but is the core still transparent like it was originally? in the movies you can't see through the core at all.

Anywho i dug up some more pics for ya, don't know if you still need them but here they are anyways. :)

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0121765/EP2_IA_69836_R.jpg

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0121765/EP2_IA_68541_R.jpg

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0121765/EP2_IA_69788_R.jpg

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0120915/EP1_IA_29513_R.jpg

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0120915/EP1_IA_37464_R.jpg

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/130/009_221-003.jpg

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/130/009_221-002.jpg

http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/snapshot/2001/08/img/26041_bg.jpg

http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/snapshot/2001/05/img/39222_bg.jpg

http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/snapshot/2000/11/img/36980_bg.jpg

http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/snapshot/2000/07/img/11784r_bg.jpg

http://charliemartel.reallyrules.com/

Xzzy

10-16-2002, 12:14 PM

artifex's sabers look just fine, i think the only reason they don't look exactly like the movie ones is that there's more of the color halo at the tip than is in the movies, which alters the look slightly.

The in-game sabers are thinner than the movie ones as well, however you should also realize that in-game these sabers are constantly moving around and the motion blur code makes them look a lot thicker.

artifex's sabers look quite long as well, though that could be an artifact of camera positioning.

And I'm not sure we'd want to screw with game balance by modifying saber length, either. ;)

Deetox187

10-16-2002, 12:40 PM

I totally agree they look fine, i'd be perfectly happy with them the way they are now, my nitpicks are very minor. I also agree it is crucial to maintain the proper length, i have used other custom sabers in the past that were a little short or long and it does affect your perception of its range when you swing.

acdcfanbill

10-16-2002, 01:03 PM

They look good ArtifeX, and thanks for clearing up the whole inner and outer glow issue for me. :D

ArtifeX

10-16-2002, 01:13 PM

The little tip blur is really tricky. The opengl shader they use apparently gives a vertical blur to whatever artwork you put in for the cores. I've got an idea or two that might get rid of it. I'll post later if it works.

Syfo-Dyas

10-19-2002, 03:19 AM

Originally posted by DanVan
Someone, please tell me I am imagining this, that suddenly everyone will play it when it leaves beta or that there is a

hidden server of joy,

full of low ping promod lovers near me.

Hey ArtifeX, There's a good name for your server!

"The Hidden Server of Joy"

I know it sounds like the title of a Star Trek episode, but it has a nice ring to it... It also kinda sounds like a good title for an Asian porn video... :D

Lathain Valtiel

10-19-2002, 04:35 AM

For the love of God, NO, NO Ep 1 or 2 sabers! It is my strong opinion that they are vastly less good looking than the sabers of the Original Trilogy. Well, you COULD maybe make a menu to swap between the core designs.... I don't think you should make a core color changer though.. By the way, can we get ppure black/white sabers with this?

ArtifeX

10-19-2002, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by MMXP
For the love of God, NO, NO Ep 1 or 2 sabers! It is my strong opinion that they are vastly less good looking than the sabers of the Original Trilogy. Well, you COULD maybe make a menu to swap between the core designs.... I don't think you should make a core color changer though.. By the way, can we get ppure black/white sabers with this?

I'll just have the once choice for the saber artwork this time around. Might add the option to toggle between the jk2 and ep2 sabers later. I've got a plan to make opaque black and other dark saber colors possible, but I'm not putting it into Beta 3. Probably Beta 4 (if Beta 4 turns out to be a beta version and not the final version, that is).

Lathain Valtiel

10-20-2002, 12:57 AM

So you're keeping the Ep2 sabers as the only choice for now...? Blech...

taboo

10-21-2002, 12:49 AM

So you're keeping the Ep2 sabers as the only choice for now...? Blech...

OMG, there's input and then there's whining .... blech.

Can't wait for beta 3 to come out. Pretty hard to find a promod ffa game at the moment but I've been abusing my bots horribly with Promod and loving it. Keep it up! :)

Syfo-Dyas

10-21-2002, 01:47 AM

This was insteresting:

I decided to go online the other night and wrestle the bots on a ProMod server. I'll bet I was on for an hour or so. During that time, I'll bet 10-15 people logged on, saw bots, and immediately logged off.

I understand perfectly well that they wanted to play against humans, but heres the thing. If they had each stayed on from 1 to 5 minutes they would have seen another human player log on. That would make 3 total. Add another1 to 5 minutes, and you'd have 4 players.

We could have had a bunch of players. But instead, each of them logged off within 5 seconds of logging on, and nobody probably got to play ProMod against humans. It was a bit of a bummer.

ArtifeX

10-21-2002, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas
This was insteresting:

I decided to go online the other night and wrestle the bots on a ProMod server. I'll bet I was on for an hour or so. During that time, I'll bet 10-15 people logged on, saw bots, and immediately logged off.

I understand perfectly well that they wanted to play against humans, but heres the thing. If they had each stayed on from 1 to 5 minutes they would have seen another human player log on. That would make 3 total. Add another1 to 5 minutes, and you'd have 4 players.

We could have had a bunch of players. But instead, each of them logged off within 5 seconds of logging on, and nobody probably got to play ProMod against humans. It was a bit of a bummer.

Hopefully, once i release beta 3 later this week jkii.net will give me some front page press. If the server admins are quick to update their servers, then it should then be much easier to find a busy server.

I sure wish Raven/Lucasarts would do something to raise the awareness of the mod scene.

Progress Report:

I'm about halfway done with the gun/saber balance code. I've got several pieces of it in the game and working properly. I should still be on target for a Thursday night release, so I'll probably use this week's Fight Night (Thurs. 8:30pm EST) as an opportunity to privately test this release with some of you guys. If you think you'll be around in the evenings this week and want to be a tester, then contact me at arsartifex@msn.com. You can also add that email address to msn messenger if you have it.

As I've been coding this, I'm becoming more and more convinced that this is the way the original game should have been. Once I'm done, a player should be able to play with guns or just a saber and having a fighting chance either way. Ultimately, two players of equal skill level should be able to be able to fight each other to nearly a tie every time. At least, that's the plan. :D

Doctor Shaft

10-21-2002, 03:18 PM

heh, at this point, all I care about is seeing your new force power.

Admittedly, I've been a huge fan of force powers, and have always wished that someone would make a game that relied on using your force powers a good deal more to both survive and fight, kind of like an energy management system or something. However, that's probably too involved for an fps, but also not nearly as rpg like enough for something like knights of the republic, plus I don't want to rpg, I want to fps fight.

Anyways, i've been waiting for thursday now for a long time. Beta 2 got saber combat to something that I had envisioned for the initial release but did not get. Kudos to those who have endured and excelled at basejk and it's multiple transformations, I can vouch that in the end I found all of them a little flat to my own expected tastes. The test of time has shown that people enjoy either a complete basejk game where it is accepted that the game is centered around, but not completely reliant, on guns, or an incomplete game (aka sabers only) where blocking is almost random, and saber swings are slowed down for certain styles, and the damage calls a person into a fight resembles more Street Fighter series than a fast and furious sword fight. Bad game, no, but not a game I'm interested in. Hopefully Beta 3 will prove that Artifex has more up his sleeve than an adjustment for random blocking and low damage.

Since it's Monday, I guess I'll give you one more chance to spill the beans about that new force power, Artifex. I'm obsessed.

Lathain Valtiel

10-22-2002, 11:48 AM

I am so deathly interested in this new Force.. Neutral, used more than Push and Pull possibly? Hard to decide what it COULD be... Grapple power? Neutral bolt of telekinesis that does damage (in my dreams, I could see that hurting gunners for pure saberists...)... I'm quite frankly on edge.

EDIT: On that note.. Taboo, what, I can't express my revulsion for such a change? I found the rounded tip very bad actually... Just an opinion...

FatalStrike

10-22-2002, 12:04 PM

Its called "Force Curiosity" and its a nuetral force that gets all you people to play ProMod.

Pretty cool huh. Next I'll tell you about my secret force power that appears after you clean my garage.

Lathain Valtiel

10-22-2002, 12:07 PM

*Has a weak mind, is enthralled by the new Force, drool hangs from lips like some deranged madman*

Seriously now, I'm hoping it will be an attack. I notice a disturbing lack of true attacks in the Neutral list, which I say is a nono.

zerowingzero

10-22-2002, 05:09 PM

Heh, i know what the force power is, for quite some time now, and belive me, what will really get people to play promod will be the balance system, lotsa work went into it and it should pay off well.

FatalStrike

10-22-2002, 06:55 PM

Hehe I knew about the new force long ago too. I agree that the balancing will be a bigger deal.

I still can't wait to use it though.

ArtifeX

10-23-2002, 08:22 AM

All of the core logic for the balance system is done. All that remains is to alter the UI to support it (no mean task). I must say it's pretty cool to run around in a level with the balance code working correctly. Playing with the new weapon/item options is pretty tight. I have a feeling that there's going to be a lot of happy gunners and saberists out there.

Once the UI changes are finished, I'm going to have to code the new force power. I have no idea if I'm going to be able to get that finished in time and properly tested for the thursday night public release. I'm looking at the possibility of sending www.athenagt.net a "ProMod Beta 3 Preview" version for their tournament this weekend that will not include the new force power. It all just depends on how quickly the UI changes go. Sure am glad that I gained some familiarity with the UI doing the RGB sabers.

I'd like to see Beta 3 get released with the new jetpack. It's really a compliment to the balance system. Which would you guys rather see? The new power, or the new jetpack? Or, I could hold off the public release until they're both in.

sleep, need sleep.

FatalStrike

10-23-2002, 09:17 AM

I say you keep it pure and just release the Beta 3 wiithout any fancy stuff. Just the core gaming.

Then release your ProMod variety pack! That would include your Jet Pack and all the other fancy stuff you wish to add.

zerowingzero

10-23-2002, 10:16 AM

I personally would rather see the new force power as it changes a certain aspect of jk2, while if somone wanted to see a jet pack that mod is always available, non-atifex coded style. The force power will affect gameplay more than the jetpack would.

I really wouldent mind the release being delayed, but i'm sure a lot of jk2 players are really expecting the thursday release. Next time to specify a date! The pressure!

Doctor Shaft

10-23-2002, 10:48 AM

Well, whatever you decide, it's your call. do what's comfortable for you. I'm excited, but I won't die if you're too busy perfecting the game. I'd rather see a product that is more finished than one that's about a day or two behind. Also, it'll probably confuse the hell out of some people. Not everyone is 'keeping up' on promod news and development, and so when beta 3 gets released, that's probably all what a majority of players are going to bother downloading. Also, better that you have the cool features in than not. As much as I love the core, it's obvious that other players aren't so keen on it. They want that jedimod feel.

If you had to choose between jetpack and force, I'd say give the force. The jetpack isn't new, and while i'm sure you balanced it for gameplay, I guess I'd just rather not be faced with the prospect of an entire promod server full of jetpackers. Plus, I'd like to see this 'game changing force power'. If you don't get around to either, at least someone just tell me what it is and what it does so I can pretend in my mind that I'm using it, cuz i'M cRaZy!

taboo

10-23-2002, 07:44 PM

It's done when it's done. Hold off on the release until you're happy with it. I imagine the new force power and jetpack will be large selling points for promod so it'd be nice to see them both squeezed in.

Deetox187

10-23-2002, 11:25 PM

I agree, i think most of us are patient enough.. we won't hold anything against you if the release date is pushed back a little. ;)

ArtifeX

10-24-2002, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Deetox187
I agree, i think most of us are patient enough.. we won't hold anything against you if the release date is pushed back a little. ;)

I consider anyone who's been able to play 1.04 for more than 20 min a very patient person. LOL

WK0NE

10-24-2002, 12:02 PM

Great Mod cant wait for beta 3

A little off topic, but were can I find the people playing promod?

Praxeum Knights server, never see anyone on
Artifax your server is empty.
People playing promod Hiding somewhere?
Hell I cant even get people to come to my 24/7 server.

ps I dislike bots and promod, not as challenging as the real thing.

FatalStrike

10-24-2002, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by WK0NE
Great Mod cant wait for beta 3

A little off topic, but were can I find the people playing promod?

Praxeum Knights server, never see anyone on
Artifax your server is empty.
People playing promod Hiding somewhere?
Hell I cant even get people to come to my 24/7 server.

ps I dislike bots and promod, not as challenging as the real thing.

The new version shall generate much more attention. Then the server will be full again!

Also Arti make a version that is "FINAL" so that we can get Darkside to host one. Keep calling them Beta and no one's going to play it!

ArtifeX

10-24-2002, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by WK0NE
Great Mod cant wait for beta 3

A little off topic, but were can I find the people playing promod?

Praxeum Knights server, never see anyone on
Artifax your server is empty.
People playing promod Hiding somewhere?
Hell I cant even get people to come to my 24/7 server.

ps I dislike bots and promod, not as challenging as the real thing.

ProMod servers, like all the jk2 servers it seems, are suffering from having too few players. I looked the other day at servers running jedimod1.2 and saw that out of the large number of servers running it, there were only about 4 people actually playing, and they were playing against bots. I'm expecting things to pick up with the new release.

ArtifeX

10-24-2002, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by FatalStrike

The new version shall generate much more attention. Then the server will be full again!

Also Arti make a version that is "FINAL" so that we can get Darkside to host one. Keep calling them Beta and no one's going to play it!

I've actually thought about just calling this "ProMod 3.0", since so many jk2 sites have been misquoting the prior betas as "ProMod 1.0" and "Promod 2.0". That would end the "i don't want it, it's a beta" argument.

Anyone think of a reason I shouldn't do this?

Xzzy

10-24-2002, 01:18 PM

version numbers are pretty much meaningless no matter what criteria you use for incrementing them, beyond helping people identify that one copy of the software is more recent than another copy of it.

it is useful to mention in the readme the development status of the software, because there are very few cases where people actually pay attention to the version or beta status, but it IS nice for the curious to be able to figure out what's going on.

in other words, do whatever you want. ;) As long as people can tell what the newest version is, it will have done it's job.

Jah Warrior

10-24-2002, 10:39 PM

Ok so promod three will be out in a couple of days, good!

Is this a final?

also does kick still work without jump enabled?

another ting, artifex PM me when its ready and i will stick it up on the server.

Also and perhaps this is WAY too late, but is it possible to do something about the instant running lunges in blue stance that people seem to be abusing these days? whaddya reckon? Or os it just not an issue in promod 3?

Rad Blackrose

10-25-2002, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by Jah Warrior
Ok so promod three will be out in a couple of days, good!

Is this a final?

also does kick still work without jump enabled?

another ting, artifex PM me when its ready and i will stick it up on the server.

Also and perhaps this is WAY too late, but is it possible to do something about the instant running lunges in blue stance that people seem to be abusing these days? whaddya reckon? Or os it just not an issue in promod 3?

Taking out the running aspect of the blue lunge is calling to nerf the move beyond belief. Out of all the special moves that have suffered in the game, it is the lunge that has taken the most impact. DFA was still usable after 1.02 minus the pivot option. The pivot option of lunge was removed at the same time, and thus nerfed the move. Combined with the backstab frenzy, you notice that lunge dropped out of the spotlight until 1.04 (Read: Floating was not really a combat tactic, and aerial lunge was a good surprise while it lasted, sure). Now lunge comes back into the fold with people literally mastering hand-eye coordination and thus, the running lunge.

Disabling the running lunge will effectively make the blue lunge no longer worth the effort to use. I steer clear of the yellow finisher with a passion in ProMod because the risk is TOO great. The same with DFA, unless it is a crowded situation and I know I can take 2 to 3 out and still walk away. Lunge is also relatively harmless in ProMod if you take the right precautions. That means not being in the offensive all the time, balancing backpedalling with forward movement, and judicious use of the blue stance. Of course, there is also the dodging aspect (I admit it, I use and abuse the rolls for this sole reason. Beware, all you lunge whores!).

So all in all, blue as a stance is more powerful in ProMod and thus a player does not have to rely on just the lunge in order to whore a person to shreds. You want to counter NF lunge whores? Try these:

1.) Smart kicking (assuming it is enabled). Going headon for a kick is like having a sign around your rectum saying "Insert Opposing Saber Here."

2.) Roll forward but mouse 180 degrees while holding back. If taken at the right angle (assuming head on), you will be at the lunger's backside. Medium stance is perfect to bishslap the person, because strong has too long of a windup.

3.) Combo of the 2, slightly: Sidestep, kick to knockdown, DFA or strong overhead slash

4.) Play ProMod, learn your defensive styles, and shut down lunge completely.

Doctor Shaft

10-25-2002, 12:19 PM

I have to agree about the blue lunge thing... running lunge is important to the blue stance, at least for some people. I try to emulate the running lunge because my hand coordination isn't so great, and I often accidentally go into a roll instead of lunge. So I usually swing a few times, and then quickly input the command when the person moves to the side, or just stands there.

It's a great move, forcing people to stay on their toes, and while I don't have much knowledge on how it effects 1.04, I know in Promod that whoring blue lunge isn't goin to get you the grand prize at the end.

In Beta 2, even without the stance vs stance bonuses, blue lunge could be beaten easily if you knew it was coming by red stance swings. Many times I'd run into 1.04 players, used to one system of play, and crush them with Promod's system. They didn't realize that blocking was both reliable and also very specific, meaning that there were definite ways of getting past it besides luck of exploitation.

Beta 3 will have stance vs stance bonuses, and so if someone decides that running with blue stances and lunging is the key to victory, your stradegy will be an even simpler time foward heavy strike, get instagib.

However, if blue lunge can't be used running, why use it ever? EVen if you're fast enough to execute the command without people seeing you crouch first and position yourself, they can kind of tell you'd be executing the move by either the fact that you're walking or you suddenly stop. the range is gone, the smoothness is gone, and with promod's reliable blocking, it ain't going to work that much. It'll be as good as yellow finisher I think, and yellow finisher is probably the most 'specialized' move in the game, meaning in promod it's nearly useless, and almost not worth using if the guy has an attention span.

If you name it Promod 3.0 artifex, I think people may be more receptive to it. The beta title makes it seem so incomplete, even though it's more complete in terms of what it seeks to do than most other things available. You've never given us a system that only half works, you've merely been adding to the system. Perhaps you should drop the beta title and just call it versions. Promod 2 had it's features, and though it wasn't your complete vision, nor a version that would not last long enough in this community as satisfying because of what it DIDN'T offer, it wasn't broke either.

One thing though. I know this isn't important at all, but of the features you have listed as complete, it seems you have not put in the model size implementation. I guess that's a good thing, although I was looking to be like yoda and try kicking booty that way.

That's all for now.

PS: Someone tell me what that new force power is!!!

Rad Blackrose

10-25-2002, 11:35 PM

Taking a look at Artifex's server, he had it passworded up. On closer observation... it had a build of Promod v.3 on it... ok Arti, time to fork over the password before we break out the torches and pitchforks. ;)

Syfo-Dyas

10-26-2002, 03:19 AM

Yeah, call it ProMod 3. The whole beta/Final doesn't mean anything most people.

Force power before Jetpack. This is a no-brainer. Everyone knows real Jedi's don't need no stink'n Jetpacks!

Whatever customizing options (appearence wise) are available; make sure they're a part of it. It may not effect gameplay, but if it looks cool and lets people personalize their character, people are going to find it more attractive -though it should never be the main selling point for ProMod.
Promote the hell out of it!!! Whatever it takes to get people to download it, and start using it! I knew there would be fewer people playing once school started back up, but it's hard to find anyone playing ProMod at all! And I know there out there.

Maybe that's the next step: organize the community. Set game times. Fill the servers with the group we've got. Start a ProMod clan (it won't see much action, but it will draw peoples attention).
Anyone who is dedicated to making ProMod the 'standard' should be promoting it at every opportunity. I use it in my tagline. It's in my Multi-Player name too. Anytime I play online and someone comments about how crappy 1.04 is, I chime in and say somthing about how ProMod would make it a lot more balanced and more fun. Anything to raise awareness. And on the freak occasion I see someone playing ProMod online, I make it a point to be nice to them -so they don't think we're a bunch of jerks. The other day I helped a newbie learn how ProMod works.

Whatever it takes. Cause I want to see this thing developed, and finally get some serious online gaming in before people lose interest in JO alltogether!

taboo

10-26-2002, 05:17 AM

Call it version 1 or version 3, as long as the word beta isn't sitting next to it.

Syfo-Dyas, I couldn't agree more about trying to organize some Promod games whether it be through a clan, standard game times, a promod forum etc..

zerowingzero

10-26-2002, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Taking a look at Artifex's server, he had it passworded up. On closer observation... it had a build of Promod v.3 on it... ok Arti, time to fork over the password before we break out the torches and pitchforks. ;)

http://members.rogers.com/zwz/pics/JO/supersecret.jpg

Muhahahahaha!!!!!

The version on the server isnt the final promod beta 3, so can't have that being distributed.

Syfo-Dyas

10-29-2002, 08:34 PM

I am wondering how much support there would be for having a 'TIMEOUT' of maybe 5-10 seconds for dying.

Currently -apart from losing whatever stuff you have collected-, there is really no penalty for dying in the game. What this means is that if you are willing to commit suicide in order to take down an opponent, there isn't any cost involved to you or your team.

My thought is to place a greater penalty (longer timeout) on someone for kills themself, and a smaller penalty of you are killed by someone.

I can't decide if it's a good idea or not. But I can definately see some positive sides to it:
For one thing, people who try harder to keep from dying.

It places a (small) value on staying alive.

In CTF games, if you are about to get the flag and you take someone out -they wouldn't be able to just immediately respawn with fresh health stats and continue their attack.

Good idea, or bad idea? What does everyone think?

zerowingzero

10-29-2002, 08:42 PM

As of the last beta, /kill in regular games has no ill effect, while in team games and in ctf, there is a 10 second delay between the time you enter it and the time you die.

EDIT: seems like a bit much to me, 7 sec would be fine

Syfo-Dyas

10-29-2002, 09:13 PM

We should compile a list of skins/models, and maps which would be a sort of 'ProMod Preferred' set that could ensure everyone who uses ProMod would have the same set, and all servers would be supporting them. Basically a 'Standard'

It makes the most sense to do this now since ProMod3's release has been delayed slightly, and there is a lull currently in the number of new skins/maps being made.

Let's see some lists from you all:

zerowingzero

10-29-2002, 10:33 PM

EDIT: servers preference, can't help that.

ArtifeX

10-30-2002, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas
We should compile a list of skins/models, and maps which would be a sort of 'ProMod Preferred' set that could ensure everyone who uses ProMod would have the same set, and all servers would be supporting them. Basically a 'Standard'

It makes the most sense to do this now since ProMod3's release has been delayed slightly, and there is a lull currently in the number of new skins/maps being made.

Let's see some lists from you all:

I've already started the wheels turning to create a "ProMod mediapack" that will be a compilation of the levels, models and skins best suited to competition play. Haven't had much feedback though. Everybody put up the stuff you think is really well done and I'll compile it all.

On dying:
The 10 second suicide is intended to keep people from teleporting themselves across a ctf map in order to bolster their team's failing defenses. I consider this a minimum to really affect the outcome.

Rad Blackrose

10-30-2002, 06:08 PM

That is a very good idea in terms of CTF suicide, but what about FFA? Can you set up two variables, one for CTF and the other for all other gametypes, and then set timelimits thru there? Or do you think it will also have somewhat of a better impact on other gametypes?

zerowingzero

10-30-2002, 06:15 PM

As of now, only TFFA is effected, even then, how often do you have to change your force settings while your not dead?

Guardian Omega

10-30-2002, 11:36 PM

Wow, I'm glad I got there before the password was put on! (Another reason why minimum days kick butt......) Unfortunately, Lazarous proceeded to hand my *** on a silver platter before the lock.....(I think I do better with guns.....)

Bad thing is, I can't play it, create server option is bugged up. :mad:

I haven't had much time to test it out, in game is the best to test out stuff. I can't wait for Promod 3.:D

ArtifeX

10-31-2002, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by Guardian Omega
Wow, I'm glad I got there before the password was put on! (Another reason why minimum days kick butt......) Unfortunately, Lazarous proceeded to hand my *** on a silver platter before the lock.....(I think I do better with guns.....)

Bad thing is, I can't play it, create server option is bugged up. :mad:

I haven't had much time to test it out, in game is the best to test out stuff. I can't wait for Promod 3.:D

Yeah, sorry I had to boot you off. :D The version that was on the test server was a preview 1 version. I've since updated that to a preview 2 version, and the two aren't compatible. Glad you got a (brief) chance to look at it, even if Laz was being his normal ass-whupping self.

Me and Laz have had some really awesome saber fights in 3.0, btw. The new trumping system really forces you to stay on your toes and be aware of which style your opponent is using. The new Strong stance rocks, of course. :]

ArtifeX

10-31-2002, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
That is a very good idea in terms of CTF suicide, but what about FFA? Can you set up two variables, one for CTF and the other for all other gametypes, and then set timelimits thru there? Or do you think it will also have somewhat of a better impact on other gametypes?

The way it's currently working is that any gametype above 4 (single player gametype) is automatically given the 10 second suicide wait. That means any team game includes this. All of the non-team games allow instant suicide.

Syfo-Dyas

11-02-2002, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

I've already started the wheels turning to create a "ProMod mediapack" that will be a compilation of the levels, models and skins best suited to competition play. Haven't had much feedback though. Everybody put up the stuff you think is really well done and I'll compile it all.

OKAY, since nobody else seems to want to do this, I'll start.

Maps:

Wiredlampstudios CTF Mappack seems very good, and has good BOT support

CST9xt8 is a great map, but I don't recall if it has BOT support or not.

Models/Skins

BattleDroid: There are a couple of these out. I'm redoing the sounds on one. I can email it to you.

ANLuke

C3PO_4Lom

Cheshire_Arco_Vader: Another I'm redoing the sounds for, and turning out really good!

CT_Palpatine

DarthMaul: the best Maul model I've seen, but lacks BOT support

glm_Dooku

glm_Maul_Model: The more popular Maul model. I'm redoing the sounds on this one too, and it's turning out GREAT!

Guard2.1: someone recently added BOT support for this.

MC_Tusken

nakedTav: This is a MUST

Royalguard

I'll add more later, I need to look through some of them.

C'mon people, let's get some lists going !!!

ArtifeX

11-02-2002, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas

OKAY, since nobody else seems to want to do this, I'll start.

Maps:

Wiredlampstudios CTF Mappack seems very good, and has good BOT support

CST9xt8 is a great map, but I don't recall if it has BOT support or not.

Models/Skins

BattleDroid: There are a couple of these out. I'm redoing the sounds on one. I can email it to you.

ANLuke

C3PO_4Lom

Cheshire_Arco_Vader: Another I'm redoing the sounds for, and turning out really good!

CT_Palpatine

DarthMaul: the best Maul model I've seen, but lacks BOT support

glm_Dooku

glm_Maul_Model: The more popular Maul model. I'm redoing the sounds on this one too, and it's turning out GREAT!

Guard2.1: someone recently added BOT support for this.

MC_Tusken

nakedTav: This is a MUST

Royalguard

I'll add more later, I need to look through some of them.

C'mon people, let's get some lists going !!!

Thx for the input. I'll look at these asap.

Lathain Valtiel

11-02-2002, 10:57 PM

Bah.. I'm DYING here! DYING! I need my ProMod fix!

Speaking off ProMod, most of Syfo's suggestions are very on the money. Some I can;'t comment on simply because I don't have them. I've never HEARD of CST9xt8. Nor do I need nakedTav.. That's just sick man.

thehomicidalegg

11-02-2002, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas

nakedTav: This is a MUST

:naughty::p

Toonces

11-02-2002, 11:46 PM

lol, nakedTav, is nudity part of the starwars universe now? Must have been George Lucas's doing with the "Special Edition" of RotJ, something I never had the stomach for so I skipped. Did Leah disrobe or something? ;)

Syfo-Dyas

11-03-2002, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by Toonces
lol, nakedTav, is nudity part of the starwars universe now? something I never had the stomach for so I skipped.

Och!!! Tis no more than God gave 'er, ya puritan pukes!!!

http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Set/1728/willie43.JPG

Syfo-Dyas

11-03-2002, 04:10 PM

OK, I need to revise a few things from my previous list, and add some new stuff:

Maps:
Wiredlampstudios CTF Mappack seems very good, and has good BOT support

Carbon Station t9xt8 -doesn't have BOT support, but IS a cool map!

Cathedral

CTF_Bespinfort

CTF_Destroyer

CTF_Spaceport

ctf_Tanzin

ctf_Waterpump Station

EchoBaseCTF

IRGCoruscantMapPack

ReactorCTF

(Most of these contain no BOT support. If someone knows how to add it, PLEASE DO! I have found that some of these maps are quite large -e.g. IRGCoruscantMapPack-, and run a little slow on my computer -800MHz, over 300MB RAM, ATI 32MB vid card-. I haven't played online, however, and most maps run a little faster when my CPU doesn't have to think about handling BOTs, so this may not be an issue for everyone.)

Skins/Models
(In general, anything done by Mars or Cheshire is pretty much guaranteed to be good. I haven't downloaded all of their stuff, but it's probably worth looking into.)

(*=From previous list)
*ANHLuke -still needs support for teams
*BattleDroid: There are a couple of these out. I'm redoing the sounds on one. I can email it to you.
*C3PO_4Lom
*Cheshire_Arco_Vader: Another I'm redoing the sounds for, and turning out really good!
*CT_Palpatine
*DarthMaul: the best Maul model I've seen, but lacks BOT support
*glm_Dooku
*glm_Maul_Model: The more popular Maul model. I'm redoing the sounds on this one too, and it's turning out GREAT!
*Guard2.1: someone recently added BOT support for this.
*MC_Tusken
*nakedTav: This is a MUST
*Royalguard

Boba
Boushh/RTOJ Leia -and YES, she has her clothes ON...
Clone Trooper
Darth Vaniav2 -No BOT support yet.
Aayla (Contains several skins)
FernaKhase (Ladybrena) (contains 3 other skins)
Ki Adi VM
Yuuzhanvong
Jango
JarJar
Padme Geonosis
StealthKyle
RoboTavion
Tyrion
Yoda
Yun
ZapPack (lots of cool variations, well done Tron, so team support)

SaberHilts:

AncientSaberV2 -really nice looking gold saber hilt.

ArtifeX, how do you want to go about implementing a Skin/Map Pack? If you'll tell me what you want or how you want it done, I'd be willing to handle as much of it as I can. That would save you some time, so you can focus on ProMod3. I could communicate with the authors as well and see if they have any updates to add -Maybe even BOT support...

Jus lemme know...

Lathain Valtiel

11-04-2002, 12:14 AM

Syfo, for your information there is a newer Ancient Saber up at massassi.net

ArtifeX

11-04-2002, 09:22 AM

Here's my requirements:

Models/Skins - Must have team support, and must have all their appropriate sounds (pain, taunts, etc.). Must be plainly visible: no camouflaged skins. Must of course be of high quality otherwise.

Maps - Must have bot support. There's a lot of people playing ProMod offline against bots. I don't want anything in a mediapack that cannot be used offline properly. Must have been made with map balance in mind--I don't want any maps that are pretty, but play poorly.

taboo

11-04-2002, 10:46 AM

Dirge is a decent ffa map. Plays well, has bot support, looks good and is easy on the cpu. It's only downside imo is that it is too dark in a few places.

I'd like to have seen AcidStoragePlantv2 included as well if it wasn't so much of a cpu hog.

Syfo-Dyas

11-04-2002, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by ArtifeX
Here's my requirements:
Models/Skins - Must have team support,
I think most do, but some could be added without too much work. I might go though and add team support to some of them. If anyone enjoys doing this kind of thing, and would be willing to take it on, LET ME KNOW...

and must have all their appropriate sounds (pain, taunts, etc.).
I believe sounds are pretty much optional for these. People often add a few sounds, but the game fills in the rest. Are you saying that all of the sounds should be custom?

Must be plainly visible: no camouflaged skins. What is a camouflaged skin to you? To me, Darth Vader -or any solid black skin- is closer to camoulaged than most. Or are you describing something entirely different?

Maps - Must have bot support. There's a lot of people playing ProMod offline against bots. I don't want anything in a mediapack that cannot be used offline properly.
Some have BOT support but do not play as well as others. How do we judge the cutoff line? Is it BOT support, yes or no? Or, is it GOOD BOT support, yes or no?

Must have been made with map balance in mind--I don't want any maps that are pretty, but play poorly.
Makes sense, but is this somewhat subjective? How do you define balance?

I'll start having a look around to see what I can find.
How many maps/models/skins/hilts do you want? approx

I'd appreciate any input, ProModders -This is the stuff you'll be playing on, so speak NOW or shut the hell up... ;)

thehomicidalegg

11-05-2002, 02:15 AM

duel maps: coruscant_promenade, duel_hall, duel_kamino or duel_kaminoX, matrix_dojo, padhall,

ArtifeX

11-05-2002, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas

I think most do, but some could be added without too much work. I might go though and add team support to some of them. If anyone enjoys doing this kind of thing, and would be willing to take it on, LET ME KNOW...

I believe sounds are pretty much optional for these. People often add a few sounds, but the game fills in the rest. Are you saying that all of the sounds should be custom?

They don't have to be custom, but they do have to be correct. There's some models floating around out there that have one sound for every pain level. That's not good.

What is a camouflaged skin to you? To me, Darth Vader -or any solid black skin- is closer to camoulaged than most. Or are you describing something entirely different?

Basically anything that provides a visibility advantage to the user is something I don't want. Solid black is ok, because that doesn't blend into most of the environments well.

Some have BOT support but do not play as well as others. How do we judge the cutoff line? Is it BOT support, yes or no? Or, is it GOOD BOT support, yes or no?

In general, bots need to not get stuck or have any other obvious flaws. If they play the level well, that's even better.

Makes sense, but is this somewhat subjective? How do you define balance?

An example of bad balance would be a level with a very bad choke point, or a ctf map that gives one team easy access to the best weapons/powerups while making it difficult for the other team.

I'll start having a look around to see what I can find.
How many maps/models/skins/hilts do you want? approx

I'd appreciate any input, ProModders -This is the stuff you'll be playing on, so speak NOW or shut the hell up... ;)

I'd like to have around 2-3 maps of each type: duel, ffa, and ctf. The number of models and skins just depends on how many quality offerings are out there.

Thanks for your help. It's much appreciated!

Lathain Valtiel

11-05-2002, 12:30 PM

Duel Maps I think would be nice: Coruscant Promenade, duel_kaminoX, Messaja and the Psycho Drive.

FFA: Perfect Dark Fortress V2. THAT is balance, heck, it's dead symmetrical! Not sure about it's BOT support...

ArtifeX

11-06-2002, 10:52 AM

Anybody interested in downloading and testing out some of these maps? I'd love to do it myself, but working on 3.0 is eating up all of my time. I'll make sure to give anyone generous enough to do this some mention in the readme file once 3.0 is released.

Thx!

Lathain Valtiel

11-06-2002, 11:18 AM

I think a suitable reward for the not-so-lucky would be a copy of Beta 3.0 and the PW to your server! LOL!

ArtifeX

11-06-2002, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by MMXP
I think a suitable reward for the not-so-lucky would be a copy of Beta 3.0 and the PW to your server! LOL!

There's already a select few with such privileges that are helping me test. I would probably need someone to test the maps in the current build...

:rolleyes:

Lathain Valtiel

11-06-2002, 07:11 PM

I was kidding. (Besides that, I don't see how something balanced in... What, 1.04, would suddenl;y turn unbalanced in ProMod... Seems strange.. Oh well.)

ArtifeX

11-07-2002, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by MMXP
I was kidding. (Besides that, I don't see how something balanced in... What, 1.04, would suddenl;y turn unbalanced in ProMod... Seems strange.. Oh well.)

Testing a map in 1.04 should be fine. The introduction of the jetpack may alter things a bit though.

Rad Blackrose

11-07-2002, 09:03 AM

Send me the maps if you can Artifex. I have the jetpack mod to test the jetpack aspects, if anything.

ArtifeX

11-07-2002, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Send me the maps if you can Artifex. I have the jetpack mod to test the jetpack aspects, if anything.

Actually Rad, the jetpack I'm implementing is totally different to the one in the jetpack mod. It's going to be more like the tribes 2 jetpack. Not sure how much difference that would make. What I'm mostly concerned about is bottlenecks, weapon placement, and bot support.

Anyone got the links to those to post here?

thehomicidalegg

11-08-2002, 03:53 AM

As for the maps:

Entes PadHall can be fount in Ente's padpack: http://www.jedioutcastmaps.com/file.php?id=241
He also made quite a good FFA map, padstation
http://www.jedioutcastmaps.com/file.php?id=118

Duel_hall
http://www.jedioutcastmaps.com/file.php?id=112v

Duel_kamino
http://www.jedioutcastmaps.com/file.php?id=280
and duel_kaminoX
http://www.massassi.net/levels/files/2394.shtml

matrix_dojo
http://www.jedioutcastmaps.com/file.php?id=331

coruscant_promenade
http://www.jedioutcastmaps.com/file.php?id=518

IRG map pack ...imho, only the ffa/ctf map is decent though
http://www.jedioutcastmaps.com/file.php?id=254

Wiredlampstudios CTF Mappack
http://66.28.242.247/jediknight2/jediknight2/

dunno the link for the other maps listed

ksk h2o

11-08-2002, 09:09 AM

hello all, I dont expect anyone to listen to what I'll be typing here since nobody know me, but I never had enough interest in any of the mods out there (with the exception of Mars' vulcanus admin mod for crwod control), or enough ego in discussing game related issues to register on any forum... Promod did change that as it gave me back the fun I lost over time in this game. Too bad I can't find any servers with human players on it in order to share my excitement on this mod and to actually improve a little. I will constrain myself to suggesting maps/models that I liked (some people have mentioned them allready) since I do think that releasing promod with a collection of the best maps and models out there would be something I would like to see.

I have rarely ventured onto guns servers since the saber became utterly useless there are much better gun-based fps multiplayer games out there so I played JKII for it's unique feture of the saber... that meant saber only servers or jedi vs merc (which is a joke actually), so unfortunately I may suggest some newer maps that do not have a great gun-location, my apologies for that.

Models I find really well made are:
the mandalorians (if the saber swing thing can be fixed, if it has and i don't know it, ignore the comment)
Cheshire Vader
Conetroopers (with the newer Alien_JL, KapnKeg skins)
Kit Fisto
Yoda (great model, sizing controversies aside)
JarJar
Padme Geonosis
Tyrion (not my fav but people seem to like it a lot)
Aayla (see tyrion)
Boushh
Wookie
MC_Tusken
glm_dooku
DarthMaul
CT_palpatine (i hate it but you have to have an emperor model for "those" people out there... I'm infrerring to the peple who have a paper weight stuck on the lightning key :) )
Battle Droid (many of these out there... I like the Prophet ones, but any will do)
Anakin, ObiWan, QuiGon (these have to be the most fragmented skins models out there... truthfully, they all look the same to me with the exception of ghost ben. for the sake of completion and harmony one model(or)skin should included for these characters... again any will do as they mostly look the same to me)

Maps:
Sarlacc (I dont see where the guns would go here but I like outdoor maps a lot)
jedicouncilgc2
ffa_episode1 (almost everyone has this anyway)
Cloudshark
XG Arena
Sandarena2
coruscant promenade
dimsidepalace2
ffa_wastefacilityewoke
ffa_ns_terminal
ffa_wov (maybe too dark for some)
canyon_oasis
the two kektik maos (nan_dm1 and 2)
ente's padstation
skyhigh
wookievillage
jabba
ewok_village

I know the list is long, I'm thinking nominees allways outnumber winners... I also never played CTF on non-standard maps so can't help out there.

hope this helps, and I'm looking forward for your PM3 release... hopefully I'll be able to find servers with people on them :(

ArtifeX

11-08-2002, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by ksk h2o
hello all, I dont expect anyone to listen to what I'll be typing here since nobody know me, but I never had enough interest in any of the mods out there (with the exception of Mars' vulcanus admin mod for crwod control), or enough ego in discussing game related issues to register on any forum... Promod did change that as it gave me back the fun I lost over time in this game. Too bad I can't find any servers with human players on it in order to share my excitement on this mod and to actually improve a little. ...

Welcome to the Forums. :)

Glad you like the mod so far. It's pretty tough to find a Promod beta 2 server that's populated these days. Hopefully that'll change when 3.0 is released. I'm going to do my best to spread the word once it's available.

We had a gathering night on thursdays at 8:30pm there for a while in my server, but I've had to close my server to closed-test ProMod 3.0. Anyone running a server that would be willing to host Fight Night again?

Models I find really well made are:
the mandalorians (if the saber swing thing can be fixed, if it has and i don't know it, ignore the comment)
Cheshire Vader
...
I know the list is long, I'm thinking nominees allways outnumber winners... I also never played CTF on non-standard maps so can't help out there.

hope this helps, and I'm looking forward for your PM3 release... hopefully I'll be able to find servers with people on them :(

Pick 2 or 3 maps, models and skins that you like, and post the links to their download pages so that people can check them out for balance, bot support and overall quality.

Rad Blackrose

11-08-2002, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

Actually Rad, the jetpack I'm implementing is totally different to the one in the jetpack mod. It's going to be more like the tribes 2 jetpack. Not sure how much difference that would make. What I'm mostly concerned about is bottlenecks, weapon placement, and bot support.

Anyone got the links to those to post here?

Niiiice.

Now we will have mercs attempting to master Tribes skills... prepare to watch me slide past while dropping bombs.

Moradivh

11-11-2002, 12:13 PM

I've dug up a few good skin packs over the months, but the best of them are pretty standard issue, and the older ones I can't even find online anymore.

What's on your list so far, ArtifeX? Don't wanna bother recommending stuff that's already there. And since I've never played competative team games, a few examples of your standards wouldn't hurt.

ArtifeX

11-12-2002, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by Moradivh
I've dug up a few good skin packs over the months, but the best of them are pretty standard issue, and the older ones I can't even find online anymore.

What's on your list so far, ArtifeX? Don't wanna bother recommending stuff that's already there. And since I've never played competative team games, a few examples of your standards wouldn't hurt.

I haven't gotten an official list together yet. I'm waiting to get as much input as possible before I sit down to look at the maps. Recommend away!

Moradivh

11-12-2002, 03:26 PM

Righto.

Here's a few team packs you could try if you haven't already. Most have bot support, though the AI on some might benefit from tweaking. I don't think any replace the game's original skins but I honestly can't remember. Oh, and the team colors are less obvious on some than others, hope they'll do.

Movie models (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=806)
Mandalorian (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=145)
Emperor Palpatine/Lord Sidious (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=946)
Ki-Adi Mundi VM (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=921)
Anakin Solo (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=920)
Sith Learner (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=710)
Xander (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=347)
Rogue Jan (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=1014)
Kit Fisto (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=1001)
Lady Brena (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=120)
Raith Daggos (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=1013)
Dash Rendar (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=1002)
President Skroob (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=559) (heh heh)

There's also dozens of really good skins without team colors out there. They might do well for a duel/rpg pack, but for the sake of realism I won't drown you with the links right now. :)

Moradivh

11-12-2002, 03:46 PM

OMG! How could I forget?

Fun In The Sun Bikini Pack (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=146)

Let's see BF 1942 compete with THIS! :thumbsup:

Syfo-Dyas

11-12-2002, 07:12 PM

Some good suggestions here. Many of them I've already been through and would give a thumbs up.

MAKE CERTAIN THEY HAVE BOT SUPPORT! The support should be at least 'decent'. Making BOTs act intellegently is pretty hard, so I think we can allow for that. But we still want them to be at least kind of challenging.

I've previewed some very nice maps, and I was so bummed because they had no BOT support. A map without BOT support is UNFINISHED! Finish the map and then make it available so we can enjoy it.

The most impressive map I've seen so far has been "Imperial Installation" (CTF_WLS4) by Expandable at Wired Lamp Studios. It's just first rate work!
It's big, without wasting space.
It's well detailed and interesting to look at.
It makes great use of ambient sounds to give the map 'atmosphere'.
The BOT support is the best I've seen.

Best of all, I can play up to 10 BOTs on my 2 year old computer and STILL get a decent framerate and great gameplay! A LOT of maps can't say that! None of the other maps in the Wired Lamp Studio Map Pack play nearly as good as this one. And they all have choppy framerates -which means they're too clunky and CPU hungry to be very usable.

Another GREAT one is "Coruscant Promenade" by Starunner.web1000.com . It's great for ALL the same reasons that "Imperial Installation" (CTF_WLS4) is great!

These two are without a doubt 'A-List' maps -worthy of the ProMod Community of Elite Jedi :slsaber: (Grrrroovy, baby!)

Guardian Omega

11-12-2002, 08:38 PM

Tribes 2 jetpack style?
Heheheheh, prepare to see me and my repeater collecting frags.:D

Of course, with the demigods (Lazarous, I'm pointing at you), then it might be a different story.:p

DeTRiTiC-iQ

11-15-2002, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas
The most impressive map I've seen so far has been "Imperial Installation" (CTF_WLS4) by Expandable at Wired Lamp Studios. It's just first rate work!
It's big, without wasting space.
It's well detailed and interesting to look at.
It makes great use of ambient sounds to give the map 'atmosphere'.
The BOT support is the best I've seen.

Best of all, I can play up to 10 BOTs on my 2 year old computer and STILL get a decent framerate and great gameplay! A LOT of maps can't say that! None of the other maps in the Wired Lamp Studio Map Pack play nearly as good as this one. And they all have choppy framerates -which means they're too clunky and CPU hungry to be very usable.

Pretty map, badly designed. The best CTF maps i've seen are the two recent releases over at Massassi

As for the bot support, its VERY easy to make bot support if the map has no complicated areas, my open request for botroutes for Bespin Towers has yet to be answered :(

Syfo-Dyas

11-15-2002, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

Pretty map, badly designed.

my open request for botroutes for Bespin Towers has yet to be answered :(

Well let's all hope that it gets answered soon. Nice map!

As for "Pretty map, badly designed", help me out here. What are the short comings?
I claim stupidity on this issue...
_:nut:_

:wstupid:

DeTRiTiC-iQ

11-15-2002, 05:13 PM

The main problem is the fact that the only way to get the flag is by the jumppads or force jump. This has two repercussions:

1) The map encourages pull-whores which for me and a lot of people removes the fun from the game, its the general consensus that you should at least need to use a weapon to defend in CTF, not just tap one button repeatedly.

2) The elevated position of the flag platform means its very difficult to check it for mines, and also quite difficult to shoot the mines if you actually see them. This is a rare example of a map where its TOO easy to defend.

CTF maps are rarely good (mine isn't particularly good) especially in JK2 because of two factors: flag-room layout and item placement.

Flag rooms have to be designed so that its neither too easy nor too hard to take the flag, difficulty of capture should be proportional to the skill of the enemy.

With Bespin Towers I got lucky, it was my Radiant learning map and the only reason its popular is because it has interesting vertical gameplay, that being said the flag-area was very badly designed.

Incidently I am planning to remake Bespin Towers with a new layout, flag-room etc but i'm going to try and retain the vertical gameplay.

Syfo-Dyas

11-17-2002, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
The main problem is the fact that the only way to get the flag is by the jumppads or force jump.

I don't think we're talking about the same levels, Detritic. There aren't any jumppads that I am aware of in Imperial InstallationCTF_WLS4. I think you may be talking about CTF_WLS3. I don't care for that one as much. Plus, the bot support sucks, and the framerate is too choppy on my machine!

DeTRiTiC-iQ

11-17-2002, 08:38 AM

ah yes, my bad. Imperial Installation was actually the only reasonably decent level in the pack, but the flag room could have been designed a little better. The overall layout is nice though.

pakmannen

11-18-2002, 11:05 AM

If you are adding a jetpack to the mod, i would suggest the map "Sand Arena 2".
The people over at TheForce.net discovered that this was a great combination.
You can read a review of the map (together with the already existing jetpack mod) here:
http://www.theforce.net/games/jo/game_01_fan_reveiw.shtml

and you can get the map here:
http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=859

ArtifeX

11-18-2002, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by pakmannen
If you are adding a jetpack to the mod, i would suggest the map "Sand Arena 2".
The people over at TheForce.net discovered that this was a great combination.
You can read a review of the map (together with the already existing jetpack mod) here:
http://www.theforce.net/games/jo/game_01_fan_reveiw.shtml

and you can get the map here:
http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=859

Looks interesting from the review. The balance should be a bit better without the jetpackmod-style jetpack. Promod's is more like Tribes 2 in physics and fuel management.

Moradivh

11-18-2002, 06:34 PM

Here's a few more decent team skins:

Battledriod MP (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=1018)
Han Solo (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=1026)
Royal Guard, Carnor Jax, Kir Kanos (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=776)
Energytrooper (http://www.digigames.biz/joc_skins_display.php)

Strangely I couldn't find energytrooper on JK2.net, where I downloaded it last week. The skin's fully animated and has a lot of effects, so maybe it confuses some machines. Looks great on mine. Who knows.

On a different subject, I've been chopping bots in beta 3 for the last few days (I find they're more challenging now for some reason). Several "you can't pick up this item" messages later, I get this idea. Would it be possible to make any items you can't use destructable?

This is pretty low priority, but as a saber fighter I'm used to picking up every gun and gadget I come across, simply to rob them from my enemies for a time. It's kinda frustrating not being able to do that anymore, as it saved me a death or two in most games. Besides it's not like guns take forever to respawn.

If you can't let me smash what I don't understand, at least allow me to steal said items. Jedi aren't such neanderthals that they can't even pick up a gadget. :)

zerowingzero

11-18-2002, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by Moradivh

If you can't let me smash what I don't understand, at least allow me to steal said items. Jedi aren't such neanderthals that they can't even pick up a gadget. :)

Ah but you can, found this out while playing laz, simply buy lv1 of said gun and you can take it and it's ammo all you like, very simple and very effective to cut off that supply of det packs ;)

Moradivh

11-18-2002, 09:29 PM

Well yeah, but I'd like to save my skill points for stuff I'll actually use. Though you do have a point... I suppose that's one of the few reasons you'd bother investing in lvl 1 for any skill.

Lathain Valtiel

11-19-2002, 12:04 AM

True... But still, that's a fair waste of points.. Oh well.

ksk h2o

11-19-2002, 05:00 AM

destructible objects would be very very cool. it would finally alow me to destroy those shield and health power ups that are near fighting locations which everyone seems to run for as soon as their health is low. so now when they run for it, I can throw my saber at them and swish... power up no more, time to die like a big old boy now :)

Promod and bot fights are definitely wierd. I found out I can beat mutliple bots at the same time if I allways use yellow and run at them hacking and slashing like a blind bat. If I try to actually fight well though, they kill me quite often. There is this one darth maul bot on a server that really pisses me off :)

happydan

11-19-2002, 10:14 AM

ok, i dont have the time to wade through 150 posts in this thread, so ill just ask now...

is there going to be a hilt selector? i think one of the things that improves gameplay is adding your own touches to the game. also, does the blade colour look fatter now? i hate the one that came with jedimod, its far too thin. looks like you are fighting with a piece of straw.

ArtifeX

11-19-2002, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Moradivh
Well yeah, but I'd like to save my skill points for stuff I'll actually use. Though you do have a point... I suppose that's one of the few reasons you'd bother investing in lvl 1 for any skill.

This was done on purpose. I'd like for jedi to kill gunners by playing well and overcoming them than by denying the gunner resources. This could especially become a problem in TFFA, where one team full of Jedi could just camp the spawn point for each major weapon. Jedi essentially spawn fully armed with saber and force powers, and the gunners spawn with only the bryar pistol.

This is also the gunner's main defense against having his weapon Pulled. If you Pull a gun, but don't have at least level 1 in that weapon skill, then you can't pick up their dropped weapon, which allows them to pick it back up if you let them get to it.

The fact that you'll feel conflicted about buying level 1 weapon skills to counteract this is most definitely by design. Yes, you'll be more effective against gunners, but you'll have a minor disadvantage when fighting against a full-bore Jedi.

ArtifeX

11-19-2002, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by ksk h2o
...
Promod and bot fights are definitely wierd. I found out I can beat mutliple bots at the same time if I allways use yellow and run at them hacking and slashing like a blind bat. If I try to actually fight well though, they kill me quite often. There is this one darth maul bot on a server that really pisses me off :)

The reason your rush attacks are being successful is because your angle relative to their viewing direction changes more rapidly as you get closer. Against a bot, you have to get very close because their aim is nearly perfect all the time. A medium to long range face-to-face saber fight will almost always end in you being defeated because of this.

Here's a hint to winning in that situation: try not to hit their saber. Your defenses are much weaker when a saber connects with your body rather than your saber. Quite a bit weaker. So, try to swing at them where their saber isn't.

The same goes for fighting another human player.

ArtifeX

11-19-2002, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by happydan
ok, i dont have the time to wade through 150 posts in this thread, so ill just ask now...

is there going to be a hilt selector? i think one of the things that improves gameplay is adding your own touches to the game. also, does the blade colour look fatter now? i hate the one that came with jedimod, its far too thin. looks like you are fighting with a piece of straw.

No, there won't be a hilt selector in 3.0. It's a nice feature that will probably get added in a later version. So far, the dual-glow RGB sabers are my only capitulation to eye-candy-only changes.

Yes, the blades are much different from regular jk2, or jedimod. They much more closely resemble the blades from Episode 2.

Moradivh

11-19-2002, 04:59 PM

Here's a hint to winning in that situation: try not to hit their saber. Your defenses are much weaker when a saber connects with your body rather than your saber. Quite a bit weaker. So, try to swing at them where their saber isn't. Very true. Unfortunately the sabers of some faster bots tend to be everywhere at once.

I think I know the Maul bot you're talking about hsk, he's a toughie. But the hardest ones I've ever encountered are Ki-Adi Mundi and Emperor Palpatine. Top offense and defense, and they almost exclusively use fast stance, blocking pretty much any swing you make while landing 2-3 of their own.

I've developed a point-blank "wall of death" combo that usually takes em down. It's not perfect and takes a lot of concentration and accuracy, but if you rapidly strafe-swing from left to right you can create a kind of bladestorm that deflects all their swings -- heavy, medium, light, doesn't matter. Makes sushi out of bots if done correctly. You can do it in any stance, but fast style is probably the best for 1on1 conflicts. The other stances are deadly and better ranged, but your timing has to be really good.

In desperate situations it's also a good combo to use against real players, since you can land a ton of hits very quickly. Plenty of drawbacks though... your movement is restricted, you get no attack bonus and you leave yourself wide open to ranged and surgical attacks. So you better not expect to cut up Lazarous with this move. Believe me I've tried. ;)

I usually fight 10-16 bots at once, FFA. I only let myself use the saber but the bots use plenty of guns. With the kill limit at 40, I'm usually able win by 18-22 points. Yay me!

Lathain Valtiel

11-19-2002, 05:57 PM

Wait, I just realized something. How will the bots' have theor points doled out to guns?

Moradivh

11-19-2002, 06:23 PM

I don't think the promod skill tree applies to them. The bots I fight now use all the same weapons/items/force powers they were programmed to before I got beta 3. Damn cheaters.

But they DO use the extra strong swings in promod 3... somehow their A.I. has taken the saber adjustments into account. Plus I can't seem to block their flechette projectiles with my saber as good as I used to. And I swear I've never had so much trouble with these vicious fast-style bots... they're really hard now. Or maybe I'm just superstitious. :)

ksk h2o

11-20-2002, 05:03 AM

Thanks for the tips Atifex, I allways thought the reason the bots were so deadly was due to the fact that their aim is as you said nearly perfect. If they ever start using heavy stance though, as you said, their sabers are above their head or to the side a long time, allowing for multiple slashes druing that time :)

I also agree with your point about guns being indestructible and non-jedi spawning with only the bryar. How about the shield/medpac/bacta powerups?

There are plenty of maps that have just HORDES of powerups lying right by the flag-points or main combat areas, that essentially make the game a chase-the-looser game. Nowadaws I really piss people off on some servers since, as soon as they go for the mega-uber-shield powerup, I start pull-kicking them to death. Of course the natural response to this are the whiny "laaameeer, neeeeeoooob, or-place-your-insult-here" but hey, if there are all these shileds lying around and kicking and your feet happen to be the best moves/weapons in the game that bypass shields then I'll be usnig and abusing it on the ones that run away :)

I know the saber is a LOT deadlier in promod and thank god for that! I haven't been able to play promod as an FFA against many other humans but would like to know if the "runners" are as annoying as in vanilla. since if they start running around 40 health a saber throw wont kill them and you definitely can't catch up to them (or pull) to land a heavy blow or a finisher.

ArtifeX

11-20-2002, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by MMXP
Wait, I just realized something. How will the bots' have theor points doled out to guns?

Currently, they all have level 3 in every weapon skill. Their bot personality dictates which weapons they will use. If you load up Lando, you'll notice he never touches a lightsaber. He'll blow the crap out of you with the guns if you're not careful though.

ArtifeX

11-20-2002, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by ksk h2o
...

I know the saber is a LOT deadlier in promod and thank god for that! I haven't been able to play promod as an FFA against many other humans but would like to know if the "runners" are as annoying as in vanilla. since if they start running around 40 health a saber throw wont kill them and you definitely can't catch up to them (or pull) to land a heavy blow or a finisher.

No, runners won't be as much of a problem. A Jedi running away will be susceptible to projectiles (especially the sniper rifle), and a gunner running away can get Pulled multiple times to slow them down.

If your plan in CTF is to run in lone-wolf-style, grab the flag, and run out without dealing with any of the defenders, you're going to have a nasty surprise in store with version 3.0.

The Truthful Liar

11-20-2002, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by ArtifeX
If your plan in CTF is to run in lone-wolf-style, grab the flag, and run out without dealing with any of the defenders, you're going to have a nasty surprise in store with version 3.0.

In one way I'm glad to hear it, however it'll most likely dash my entire technique playing CTF matches. To tell you the truth I've only played ProMod 2.0 a couple times even though I liked it very much I didn't have the patience to learn something new. Will it be an easy switch from normal 1.4 to ProMod 3, or is it going to be overly complicated? It seems to me that it is, however will there be a good number of ctf servers running the new promod?

ArtifeX

11-20-2002, 12:23 PM

New stuff that's done:

I've implemented a fuel gauge for the jetpack (no, not the force meter--that's lame), the ability to save your force/weapon skill config using the same file saving mechanism as the old force configs (yay!), and server side validation of your weapon skills (no cheating).

What's left:

Jetpack bolted model (if possible), jetpack sound effects (shouldn't be difficult), jetpack thrusters effects (not sure how difficult this will be yet), and of course, the new force power.

I'm teetering on the edge of releasing this as soon as all the jetpack code is in, without the new force power. The power won't affect gunner/jedi combat much anyway, and would probably require another week or more to complete. There's so much new material in this patch already that I think that adding the new power would be just too much. Saving it for 3.1 would probably be a good idea.

On another good note, all bugs that have been found in the current feature set are gone. Everything is super stable now, thanks to some help from my beta testers: ZeroWingZero, Lazarous, Fatal, and Blind Moradin.

Yeah, yeah. When's it going to be released?
Assuming everything goes well for the rest of the jetpack coding and I leave out the new power, I could be done as early as tonight or tomorrow night. At that point, I'll have a large beta test on my server with some former members of dsbr clan, and likely some members of SM, if fatalstrike can convince them to come along. After that, I'll shake out any bugs that were uncovered and publicly release.

Mex

11-20-2002, 12:31 PM

Erm, what about people in CTF, with guns, but use force powers, and a saber? They could resist force pull, [and push] and then you get their gun, [pull] and then they can switch to saber and fight!

Thats not very reallistic for a Gunner to use a Lightsabre, [or is there a mercinary option, if there is, I havent payed much attention :D]

ArtifeX

11-20-2002, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by AB_Legion
In one way I'm glad to hear it, however it'll most likely dash my entire technique playing CTF matches. To tell you the truth I've only played ProMod 2.0 a couple times even though I liked it very much I didn't have the patience to learn something new. Will it be an easy switch from normal 1.4 to ProMod 3, or is it going to be overly complicated? It seems to me that it is, however will there be a good number of ctf servers running the new promod?

Remember, Promod doesn't require you to do anything that you shouldn't have already been doing in 1.4. The CSC concept is very similar to the way that saber damage is scaled in 1.4, where you have to hit someone in the exact middle of your swing animation to do full damage (this just happens to be squarely in front of you for most swings). So, if you've been trying to maximize your damage in 1.4, then you've been sharpening your Promod skills all along.

The other facets of Promod saber combat are as simple as you want to make them. Moving forward gives you an offensive bonus, moving backwards or crouching gives you a defensive bonus. Blue stance trumps Yellow trumps Red trumps Blue. That's pretty much it. The bonuses are small enough so that they're only useful when fighting a very evenly matched player, in which case they are going to decide the outcome most times.

I've been speaking with several different CTF clans, and they seem very interested in where Promod is going. I think 3.0 is going to be big, but we'll just have to wait and see how well everyone spreads the word once its released.

ArtifeX

11-20-2002, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by Abarath
Erm, what about people in CTF, with guns, but use force powers, and a saber? They could resist force pull, [and push] and then you get their gun, [pull] and then they can switch to saber and fight!

Thats not very reallistic for a Gunner to use a Lightsabre, [or is there a mercinary option, if there is, I havent payed much attention :D]

Promod 3.0's skill system only allows you to use either guns or force at full effectiveness--not both. For instance, choosing level 4 weapon skills will disable all force power ranks, while having level 2 weapon skills will only disable level 3 force powers. Check the other Promod 3.0 thread for the pictures of the new Skill setup screen and you'll understand.

ksk h2o

11-20-2002, 12:53 PM

quite impatient for the relase. And since I do not know what the new force power is, I could not say if it will be a major impact. However, if it can be done in a few days or a week. I think it would be best to get one release instead of two consecutive ones :)

Moradivh

11-20-2002, 01:44 PM

I'm teetering on the edge of releasing this as soon as all the jetpack code is in, without the new force power. The power won't affect gunner/jedi combat much anyway, and would probably require another week or more to complete. There's so much new material in this patch already that I think that adding the new power would be just too much. Saving it for 3.1 would probably be a good idea. I concur. The masses have waited long enough. Time for war. ;)

I can't wait to have a big beta 3 game going. Not sure which time zone you're all in (Eastern for me) but I'll lurk around the server tonight all the same. And I look forward to the new media pack whenever it comes out, as I've fallen in love with the Kit Fisto skin. He sounds like a mutant porpuse when he talks, best taunts I ever heard. Might change my name to Flipper just for that. :D

btw, though I did get into the beta very late, I haven't found much of any bugs. The only one that slightly annoys me is that I have to re-open my player setup screen every time the map changes, to remind the game which items I can pick up (can't pick up any otherwise). I never bothered reporting it though, as it's a global bug that happens no matter what build I use, so I assumed you had found it a long time ago and was on your fix-list, Arti. Lemme know if I'm wrong. First time I've ever tested a game/mod that wasn't mine.

ArtifeX

11-20-2002, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Moradivh
I concur. The masses have waited long enough. Time for war. ;)

I can't wait to have a big beta 3 game going. Not sure which time zone you're all in (Eastern for me) but I'll lurk around the server tonight all the same. And I look forward to the new media pack whenever it comes out, as I've fallen in love with the Kit Fisto skin. He sounds like a mutant porpuse when he talks, best taunts I ever heard. Might change my name to Flipper just for that. :D

btw, though I did get into the beta very late, I haven't found much of any bugs. The only one that slightly annoys me is that I have to re-open my player setup screen every time the map changes, to remind the game which items I can pick up (can't pick up any otherwise). I never bothered reporting it though, as it's a global bug that happens no matter what build I use, so I assumed you had found it a long time ago and was on your fix-list, Arti. Lemme know if I'm wrong. First time I've ever tested a game/mod that wasn't mine.

Ok, so that's 1 vote for and 1 against so far.

The bug you noticed is something i'm aware of. It's a result of not having a weaponprofs cvar value set when you join a server for the first time. If you drop connection and then reconnect, jk2 will write your weaponprofs value to your jk2mpconfig.cfg file and it should be fine from there on out. I've looked into this in depth, and it has to do with the q3 engine not reporting user-defined UserInfo cvars upon connection. It's weird. I came up with something sneaky earlier today that I might use as a workaround though. I'll give it a try when i get home.

ArtifeX

11-20-2002, 01:57 PM

One other thing:

I can't wait to get a huge game of CTF going in 3.0. It's going to be a f*cking blast! The strategy is going to center around travelling in gunner/jedi pairs for maximum effectiveness. Jedi are the going to be the best flag carriers, as they aren't going to be easily Push/Pulled and can use Force Speed or Rage to cover ground quickly. Gunners will be great for base defense with their gadgets and explosives, and will do just as well rooting out the other team's dug-in defenders.

The big thing will be that one-man armies are no longer going to be as effective as they were before. Seriously, if one-man armies are your thing, why bother playing a team game in the first place? Everyone's going to have a weakness of some sort that can be exploited, so they'll need to rely on complimentary teammates to accomplish goals.

taboo

11-20-2002, 02:25 PM

A new force power Promod needs not ... yet. The force power isn't really needed for balance (as far as I know) so as soon as the jetpack etc is stable, release the damn thing! Lookin' forward to it!

Doctor Shaft

11-20-2002, 02:46 PM

I'm just curious as to what it is. Since you're so excited to release it, and you figure that it'll take you another week to get the force power, then that means you must know that you can put the force power is.

My opinion depends on what the power is. What does it do? If it's like force throw pie in the face, then go ahead and release 3.0. But if it's something cool, I can wait a week, I've been so busy just doing school work that I can calm those random cravings for..... pro.....mooddd..... AR..ti..f..e....x..... i.... must.......hav.....po....mod......nau..........agh ..........

::sPlaT::

Toa Tahu

11-20-2002, 11:11 PM

Ah,ArtifeX,will there be a option for saber/guns teams,like there is for light/dark teams??And when ProMod 3 comes out let's have a big CTF party for 3 nights?I'll be online about 9-12pm EST.Lol,my time is 12 hours ahead of EST,so I can adjust my time more properly.

Right ArtifeX(about the big CTF party)?

Syfo-Dyas

11-21-2002, 02:25 AM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

No, there won't be a hilt selector in 3.0. It's a nice feature that will probably get added in a later version. So far, the dual-glow RGB sabers are my only capitulation to eye-candy-only changes.

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. That was something I was looking forward to. I like the idea of each person having the ability to heavily customize as many aspects of their character as possible. Hopefully we'll get to that point in the future. I'll vote for it!

ArtifeX

11-21-2002, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
I'm just curious as to what it is. Since you're so excited to release it, and you figure that it'll take you another week to get the force power, then that means you must know that you can put the force power is.

My opinion depends on what the power is. What does it do? If it's like force throw pie in the face, then go ahead and release 3.0. But if it's something cool, I can wait a week, I've been so busy just doing school work that I can calm those random cravings for..... pro.....mooddd..... AR..ti..f..e....x..... i.... must.......hav.....po....mod......nau..........agh ..........

::sPlaT::

There's actually three of them that I'm thinking about, but the one that I had originally planned to implement would have limited usefulness against a gunner. I still don't want to let any of them out of the bag, because I'm still not 100% sure which one I'm going to put in; don't want to get anybody's hopes up/let them down.

Update

I will say that I played with Avatar and Blind Moradin last night for a couple of hours at least, and had an absolute blast! I really can't sit on this any longer. It's just so much better than the regular version of the game. As soon as the jetpack cosmetic stuff is complete and I work out whatever bugs crop up, I'll be releasing it.

What's really odd is that CTF and FFA maps are looking to be the ideal choice for saber vs. gunner duelling. With so much space and equipment, the Gunner has time to equip himself (he hopes), and the Jedi can make good use of Mind Trick and Force Sight. Blind Moradin and I had some really great battles on CTF_Bespin. I was playing as a gunner and was having to use all inventory Gadgets, explosive charges and weapons that I had available to beat him. The experience is very similar to playing a Marine(gunner) versus an Alien (Jedi) in Aliens vs. Predator 2. The Jedi has superior tactical information and options in the form of Force Sight, Mind Trick, Dark Rage and other Powers, while the gunner has superior firepower, range and equipment. As you can imagine, the gunner experience is very reliant on resource management. All the firepower potential in the world doesn't matter if it's laying on the floor 10 meters in front of you when you meet the business end of a lightsaber.

It's great to see this culminating in what I wanted all along: a fast-paced, but tactical shooter that demands cleverness and depth of strategy to succeed.

A couple of balance things I'm planning on putting in: 75% self-damage from your own projectiles. This is currently way too low at 50%, which encourages spamming the floor underneath your feet when a jedi gets too close to you. I'm also considering having the Golan alt-fire shoot only one ball per shot instead of two, but at a faster firing rate. This would stop the one shot kills that are pretty rampant with it currently, and reward those who have the skill to land two consecutive shots. It's much too spammy firing two shots at once, especially with level 4's enhanced firing rate.