View Full Version : More units/less canon OR more canon/less units?

Admiral Vostok
09-22-2002, 09:08 AM
Would people rather lose completely non-canon units such as the cannon, pummel and air cruiser in favour of a more Star Wars-y feel? Or does the fact that they provide different strategic options merit their inclusion merely to make the game interesting? On the one hand, I think the Star Wars environment would be more evident without these units of which we find no trace of in the movies (and I'm not talking about Gungan fighters... NO civs have anything like a pummel). On the other hand, the strategies and playability are drastically different with these units.

Personally, being a Star Wars purist, I think the cannon, pummel, air cruiser, sea cruiser and destroyer don't really belong. What are others' opinions?

Crazy_dog no.3
09-22-2002, 11:52 AM
Sea unit are Star Warsy. I mean, exept for air units, how does the Empire expect to wage war on, say, Mon Calamari?

09-22-2002, 01:43 PM
A canon only game is boring...and of course the startegies are very different but i am in favor of removing ''too forced'' units like for exemple the gungan fighter.

09-22-2002, 01:48 PM
Somethings dont make sense, but since they have strategic benefits, keeping them or finding a more cannon approach would be your best bet.

Admiral Vostok
09-22-2002, 08:30 PM
Sea unit are Star Warsy. I mean, exept for air units, how does the Empire expect to wage war on, say, Mon Calamari?

I'm not saying get rid of all Sea Units. I think a better example of their existence comes from the movies (not EU, which is what Mon Calamari is) in the fact that the Trade Federation was able to invade Otoh Gunga. My problem is that some units are just left over from AOK because of their stratiegic use. The destroyer is just the fire ship. In fact, I think even though we only see a Gungan Bongo, all civs should have submarines. Why wouldn't they? The destroyer is a different story, because it's just a fire-ship in disguise.

Crazy_dog no.3
09-23-2002, 02:51 AM
More units will create more strategies.


09-23-2002, 09:24 PM
I vote canon units over non-canon units. More realistic units from the star wars universe. Just like some other people I am a Star Wars fanatic and stick close to the 5 movies. Pummels, air cruisers, cannons and artillery and some of the sea units shouldn't be there. I am no RTS fanatic. I don't buy games like Warcraft, Starcraft, Age of Empires, etc. I buy Galactic Battlegrounds and it's exp. pack because it is Star Wars. That is why I am a canon person. I realize to video game people especially RTS gamers it is important for balance and gameplay but being realistic in a star wars game is important. Who would actually play a RTS game labelled star wars that was all or mostly non-cannon units that were made up for that game. I certainly wouldn't. Star Wars fans and Non-RTS gamers and first time RTS gamers who buy this game usually buy it because it has characters, ships, vehicles, locations, weapons, technology of the star wars universe not age of empires, warcraft or command and conquerer units. I do agree that non-cannon units like pummels, anti-air mobiles, air cruisers, undeployed cannon, artillery and various sea units were brought over from other non-star wars RTS games. I know alot of you hate my ideas because I want a more realistic game. All I ever wanted in my life was to play a realistic star wars game or at least close to it. None of the star wars games have been that realistic. Galactic Battlegrounds was another step closer in the right direction. Maybe Lucasarts can make the next RTS game closer to the Star Wars Universe. That would make me happy. It would be so cool to build Star Destroyers, B-wings, Tie Advanced, etc. in a RTS game. If you get the right person to make the game, you can make a balanced game with the realistic star wars units and still not make the empire or the rebels stronger over the civilization. A realistic star wars game is not only cool but exciting not boring like many of you have said. I hope they make a sequel as soon as possible or an expansion soon! I would lose interest in Star Wars RTS games if they waited till Episode III to come out to release another one.

Admiral Vostok
09-25-2002, 08:16 AM
I couldn't have said it better myself. That's exactly how I feel about the situation. If you want a strategic RTS, there's plnty out there. If you want an authentic Star Wars RTS experience, it just doesn't exist.

I enjoy many of the LucasArts games. They are a fine company. But quite often I find some of their Star Wars games a bit silly.

The Jedi Knight games, for example. Even back in Dark Forces, things were dodgy. Especially in light of the new movies, the notion of the Empire creating Dark Troopers is just wrong. First, their robots, and the whole reason stormtroopers are human is because they're superior to droid troopers. Second, the Empire's strength is in a small number of really powerful units, and a large number of really weak units. They have heaps of TIE Fighters, and they're crap. They have only two Death Stars, and they kick ass. They have heaps of Stormtroopers, and they're crap. At the largest ground battle in the civil war they only deployed about 5 AT-ATs, and they kick ass. So having a heap of powerful troopers is against the Empire's logic.

I never played Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight, except for in multiplayer mode, and I was blown away with how rediculous some of the Force powers available were. I did play a fair bit of Jedi Outcast though, and although they made the Force Powers better, they still think the Imperial Remnant would make such powerful things as Reborns. It is wrong, in my eyes.

That's just my rant about how non-canon games can be a bit lame. Canon all the way!

09-25-2002, 08:42 AM
I agree - it would be nice to see an authentic Star Wars RTS game - joesdomain and i have been chating about this in my Capital Ships Poll, and the idea is to move towards a more space-rts with more authentic units such as the TF Battleship, Star Destroyer, etc.

This is exactly what i would like to see in a SWGB sequel...

Oh, and i do play other RTS as well - but i'm also a Star Wars fanatic!

09-25-2002, 11:12 AM
Just to clarifiy a point, artillery is canon in Star Wars. The Gungan used catapults in TPM, the Ewoks used them RotJ, and both the Republic and Confederacy had a form of artillery in AotC. Heck, for that matter we could possibly consider the satellite dish-like lasers the Rebels used in the Battle of Hoth as artillery, although they still weren't effective against the AT-ATs


KoL ShadowJedi
09-25-2002, 11:30 AM
ahahahahaahaha :laughing: admiral u make me laugn so much!!

Jedi Knight 2 is excelent Reborns are only powerful because they had the for "injected" in them by crystals similar to the ones in sabers! yes sabers have the power of the force inside them!
Stormtroopers are excelent....they are not crap For instance EPISODE 4 quote from obi wan -"these blast points are to accurate for sandpeople, Only imperial stormtroopers have this good aim" or sommet similar :D

TIE Fighters are not crap as they are as fast as X-Wings they can beat down Y-Wings easily and other things.
u think Hoth was the largest battle in the civil war?....I'm not sure but there was a lot of "inner wars" which involved mass armies including the empires
The Remnant is strong! dude only half of the imperial fleet was at endor.....Less than that even...Just because something didnt happen in the movies doesnt make non-less of a starwars game!

Crazy_dog no.3
09-25-2002, 12:26 PM

How would u guys like to play an unbalanced game. If the game would be realistic, then the Empire, Republic, Trade Federation and Confideracy would always win. What fun will that be if u were playing as the realistically weak Naboo, for example?

09-26-2002, 03:28 AM
Well, i think the Naboo are pretty weak in the game - although they do look pretty.

09-28-2002, 06:12 AM
Naboo Rules :(:cool:

Keep the canon units :)

Admiral Vostok
09-29-2002, 08:46 AM
KoL, I think you missed my point:

Reborns are only powerful because they had the for "injected" in them by crystals similar to the ones in sabers! yes sabers have the power of the force inside them!

That, to me, is not Star Wars. It's just a bit too silly. It is Star Wars Expanded Universe, but not Star Wars.

And I didn't say that Jedi Outcast was a crap game, I love it. But to consider it on a par with the Star Wars movies is blasphemy to me.

Crazy Dog, where does it say a game has to be balanced? I won't say "winning isn't everything", because that is crap. But winning with a disadvantaged civ, now that would be fun. It's like Jedi Knight, although I didn't play it often. The Dark Side powers were way better than the light side powers, but I always had a light side Jedi to rise to the challenge.

Empire, Republic, Trade Federation and Confideracy would always win

Actually, the Empire was defeated at the Battle of Yavin and the Battle of Endor, the Trade Federation was defeated at the Battle of Naboo and the Confederacy was beaten at the Battle of Geonosis. So making them win all the time wouldn't be realistic.

09-29-2002, 12:44 PM
Having one civ that was made to be weaker wouldn't make the game better or more fun. I play some one and choose that civ they would think i was arrogant. It would be used as an excuse "i was weak civ you were empier give me a re match!!" and even worse no body would use the weak civ if another civ where better. It's like playing someone and never going to tech 4 just silly.

Crazy_dog no.3
09-29-2002, 04:58 PM
Of course they lost all those battles. However there it was skill on the opponents side.

I mean realistically, compare the Rebels to the Empire. The Empire have some 75 % of the Galaxy. Rebels have some 20 %. The odds are against the Rebels.

Now then the Empire, Republic, etc. are going to be n00b civs now. Everyone but the skilled players will be using them. What if a 10 yr old n00b wants to play as Gungans. He is pretty much gonna lose. Skill aside, the Ganguns are an unbalanced civ.

09-29-2002, 05:02 PM
Skilled players will still use the strongest civs.

09-29-2002, 07:05 PM
Having a bad civ would be just like not including it at all, because, aside from a few newbs and the occasional expert looking for a challenge, the will be neglected. Whats the point of LA designing and balancing a whole civ if no ones gonna use it? Thats the problem that Ensemble ran into late in AoK:TC. There was like 5 civs out of 18 being used, so ES practically wasted their time making the other 13(Fortunately, in AoM, there are only 9 civs, and each has about the same amount of followers). This is a problem that all games with lots of civs run into, and one that LA has basically been able to avoid for now.

09-29-2002, 07:47 PM
Agreed about the civs, that was the main reason I stopped playing AoC. The civs were very unbalanced. It seemed every balance patch they released actually made it worse. I think any sequel to GB should put balance and fun ahead of realism. The worst thing LucasArts could do is overpower units/civs for the sake of realism.

General Nilaar
09-30-2002, 03:48 AM
Whose to say there isn't pummlers, air cruisers, or whatever in the Star Wars universe? What's the fun of constantly playing with the same units in sequel after sequel? Yes the canon units HAVE to be there. That doesn't mean that we can't have other units as well.

I wouldn't mind getting rid of farming and such, because I can't imagine the Empire taking the time to plant farms as their setting up a command post and launching a planetary invasion ;)

It's not the UNITS that I mind it's all the other conventions of typical RTS games that don't belong. Not that I want to get rid of the economy aspect of the game. I'd just like it changed somewhat so it fits in the universe better.

That's a completely different subject though....

09-30-2002, 05:38 AM
No offense meant Ewok, i also like the Naboo - especially in the Movie, but i like it even better when i am TF and blasting pretty Naboo to pieces! hehehehe:D

Admiral Vostok
09-30-2002, 06:30 AM
Okay, I was wrong about the balancing. Still I think you could still have a great game without the cannon, pummel and air cruiser.

09-30-2002, 11:48 AM
How could i Air Cruiser rush with No Air Cruisers !?! :p

Without cannons, Air cruisers and pummels games would just make it take longer to finish games. Late games already take too long in my opinion. Keep them all :)

One of the funniest strats is when you drop loads of Pummels on someones base and watch all the buildings die. Then you panic and makes Strike mechs to kill his Mountys :D

Cannons are probally the most cost effective building destroyer except for maybe Mounted troopers.

As for MadtrixTF Naboo Rule hehe :amidala::naboo:

10-01-2002, 01:15 AM
I am sticking to my opinion. Get rid of the pummels, air cruiser and cannon. More canon units, less non-canon units. I am a star wars fan who goes by the star wars movies. Those are the official story, units, characters, vehicles, and ships. EU is made up by someone other than George Lucas.

General Nilaar
10-01-2002, 02:17 AM
I'm a huge Star Wars fan but I have nothing against non-canon units if they add to the gameplay. And I don't think EVERY canon unit needs to be in it when they don't belong in that type of game.

Star Wars fans need to realize that there's only one more movie left to go. That's all there will EVER be. Better start accepting new stuff from other sources or the Star Wars universe is going to get stale REAL fast.

KoL ShadowJedi
10-01-2002, 04:37 AM
well said general!!! i agree totally with u, and the expanded universe was accepted by George Lucas

10-01-2002, 06:55 AM
Joesdomain, i have to agree with General Nilaar, the game needs pummels and canon's. I use those undeployed canons all the time they are great for destroying a base. If they were to remove these units then they would have to replace them with similar units to keep the balance of gameplay.

Imagine how long it would take to destroy a base without canons or pummels, etc.

10-01-2002, 11:05 AM
You can actually level a base fairly quickly with a number of assault mechs, but I'd still rather have the other units. Of course, if people are so against pummels we could replace them with cheap-to-produce demolition droids (from the Leia campaign). They'd work like AoC Petards...


10-01-2002, 11:42 AM
They're not as cost effective as Pummels and cannons but if you're in a good position getting like 30 and it's all good.

KoL ShadowJedi
10-01-2002, 12:26 PM
leia campaign?????? is it on heavengames?

Crazy_dog no.3
10-01-2002, 04:50 PM
No. It's the Rebel campaign.:rolleyes: :D

10-02-2002, 04:55 AM
Kryllith, i like your idea about the Demolition Droid, but how much damage do they inflict compared to Pummels and Cannons? Although, i must confess i don't use Pummels much, i prefer Cannons and Assault Mechs...

Ewok, have Naboo improved in CC expansion? i played against them yesterday on Hardest (i was Confeds) and they were much stronger than i remembered...? I like those mounted knights or whatever they are called...

10-02-2002, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by MadrixTF
Kryllith, i like your idea about the Demolition Droid, but how much damage do they inflict compared to Pummels and Cannons? Although, i must confess i don't use Pummels much, i prefer Cannons and Assault Mechs...

Ewok, have Naboo improved in CC expansion? i played against them yesterday on Hardest (i was Confeds) and they were much stronger than i remembered...? I like those mounted knights or whatever they are called...

Yeah they are much stronger. They have a massive holocron bonus. Big nova mining bonus. Royal Crusaders just own all. Jedi are stronger now both Padawans and masters. Strike mechs are stronger versus workers. Lots of things helped the Naboo in CC.

10-02-2002, 06:09 AM
Ewok, which country do you live in? This is the first time i have received a reply in my day timezone...?

Yes, those Royal Crusaders are powerful and look great, but i don't like their Mechs - they look like surfboards with lasers attached...

Try using Confed or TF - then you will see what REAL Mechs look like, I especially like the Confed Assualt Mech...

10-02-2002, 09:39 AM
I'm GMT timezone, English. I had 30 mins to kill before college cos i had a late start.

The naboo Assult mech is definatly top of the ugly chart lol

10-02-2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by MadrixTF
Kryllith, i like your idea about the Demolition Droid, but how much damage do they inflict compared to Pummels and Cannons? Although, i must confess i don't use Pummels much, i prefer Cannons and Assault Mechs...

Ewok, have Naboo improved in CC expansion? i played against them yesterday on Hardest (i was Confeds) and they were much stronger than i remembered...? I like those mounted knights or whatever they are called...
To be honest, I'm not sure. In AoC, the Petards were available along side rams, so petards could be more expensive (even when it's gone, you could still have a ram left to do damage). If we removed pummels completely (and perhaps cannons as well) then a 1-shot unit like the demolition droid might be quite cheep (since you couldn't have a pummel leftover to back it up). On the other hand, since you wouldn't be spending resources on pummels and cannons, you'd have more to spend on demolition droids so they might not be so cheap after all.

IIRC, the petards were like 50 of one resource and less (25-35 perhaps) of another. I figure top end the demolition droids might cost that high, and at the low end maybe around 20/20-25/25. They can't fire, so they can be taken down decently by troopers before being able to contact anything which would make them a wasted unit. Combined with a transport though, they can be very effective. I can't remember quite how much damage the droids did in the campaign (I'll have to play it again), but I think 1 droid could destroy a power core, and maybe 3 destroyed a mech factory. They were probably comparable to hitting a building with a cannon blast, maybe more. In the campaign I usually had enough to take out both nearby power cores, inflict a bunch of damage on the nearby CC (usually enough so that workers couldn't garrison in it) and still have a few left to hit (or even take out) a turret or a troop center/mech factory... depending on how many I lost to troopers/mechs.

If you're interested in checking them out for yourself, I think it's the 3rd (or 4th) scenario in Leia's campaign. It's the one where you're large asteroid with space and you team up with wookies to retrieve the artifact from the Empire (it's the scenario where Vader kills Echuu Shen-jon at the end.)


10-02-2002, 06:22 PM
Personally, I think you still can have more canon and more units at the same time. I am sure there are ways to have lots of kinds of troopers, mechs, aircraft, ships. I am no Ca++ programmer and I know nothing about making RTS games but I am sure we have the technology to make a Star Wars RTS game like that. It would be nice to be able to choose from a list 5-7 troopers, 5-7 aircraft, etc. Maybe if they have a sequel they add more units per civilization. The only disappointment in clone campaigns expansion pack was the number of new unit per civilizations. I recommend at least 5-6 new units per civilization. I personally want to see Imperial Navy Troopers and Imperial Officers with blasters as a empire trooper option for example.

10-02-2002, 08:21 PM
I loved petards. Esp. vs the comp (who had no way to counter them), these babies could wipe towns clean in large numbers. Petrad massing was one of my favorite late game strats vs turltes.

Admiral Vostok
10-02-2002, 10:49 PM
I disagree with you, General. The Star Wars Universe will never become stale in my eyes. Let's take the example of the Lord of the Rings novels. They were written before Star Wars and they are still popular. Even if the movies hadn't been made, they were wonderful peices of literature that needed no expanded universe to keep from being stale. Sure there was plently of supplementary material produced, but it was all created by Tolkien, unlike Star Wars EU and Lucas. Contrary to what some believe, George Lucas does NOT approve the Expanded Universe. He only ALLOWS it. In my opinion, Star Wars is just like Lord of the Rings in that it's strong enough to remain great on it's own. What about the average person who doesn't even realise the EU exists? When I used to read the EU novels people would say "are they about the movie?" and I'd say "no, this one's set five years after Return of the Jedi" and they'd give me a strange look as if "why would you care?". They defenitely don't think Star Wars is stale, that's why the Special Edition movies did so well when they were re-released.

Let me clear up a few things. I'm ONLY against the non-canon units that go AGAINST what we see in the movies. I'm even willing to make allowances for the cannons because the Republic's SPHA-T is more like a cannon than artillery.

I'm not against gungan air units, non-gungan sea units, grenade troopers, anti-air troopers etc. because although they aren't in the movies they could exist in the Star Wars Universe. They fit in with the way the Star Wars Universe wages war.

However, units like pummels and air cruisers go AGAINST what we see in the movies. I might also point out that apart from in SWGB, such units don't even exist in EU as far as I know. Close combat building destroyers and weapons of mass destruction (apart from mega mass destruction like a Death Star) just don't fit in Star Wars in my opinion.

As for a petard like unit, I think a unit more like the SEALs in Red Alert 2 would be fitting with Star Wars. They run in and plant an explosive, then run out and boom! Han Solo's taken out your Endor Sheild Generator Bunker.

I sure type a lot.

General Nilaar
10-03-2002, 02:00 AM
Yes, but how many games have there been based on Lord of the Rings? Except the ones coming out because of the movie there hasn't been any since the early 90's. The original books may never get stale but after reading the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and Silmarion there isn't really anything else to experience. Nothing new will ever happen on Middle Earth.

I want to see stuff that Lucas doesn't have room for in the movies. There's plenty in the SW's universe that can't be fit in the movies. Yes, the pummlers might not really fit. I think it's the only unit that doesn't really fit though. And it isn't really that bad. I have no problem with the Cruisers though. I think they make perfect sense.

I agree on Lucas not really approving of the expanded universe. He hasn't read any of the books and I bet he only has a vague idea what they are doing there. But Star Wars has moved beyond George Lucas to be honest. He could die tomorrow but Star Wars would continue. I'd stack up the Heir to the Empire and Hand of Thrawn series against any of the movies. Thrawn is one of the best villians in the SW's universe but he wasn't created by George Lucas.

There's only one Wookie in the series after all, but I don't see anything wrong with showing what their army looks like. The same goes with other alien races like the Chiss, Trandoshans, ect.

10-03-2002, 04:00 AM
General Nilaar: Forgive my ignorance, but where can i get hold of these EU series? (i'm assuming they are books)

I would like to take a look at Heir to the Empire and Hand of Thrawn series... Also, the author of these series might help a bit in finding them...

As for Ewok: I managed to defeat Naboo last night using Republic on Hard setting - it was great fun!


10-03-2002, 05:01 AM
Ahh, but that was a computer controlled Naboo and not an Andy controlled Naboo :p

10-03-2002, 05:13 AM
Ewok, it would be great to have a battle on the Zone against you, but i am firewalled at work and at home the bandwidth is just plain rediculous - i live in South Africa, still very much 3rd-world in terms of Telco infrastructutre, etc. But they have just recently launched ADSL - but it's still very expensive...

Is it possible to play this game over the Net at 56K analogue?

10-03-2002, 06:49 AM
I think it should be quite clear that although a canon-only game would be fun in one way- ie the fact that, well, it's Star Wars (yay!), it would be completely not fun in another. That 'another' is that you basically wouldn't be able to play the game. Certain civs would suck, other civs would rock, etc.

(Oh, btw, I'm mostly 'talking' to those who support canon-only units. Just making sure random people aren't offended.)

Example that somebody else used in a debate against joe:
"Oh, right, the Empire will have a really big death star (which CAN be built!) and is invulnerable, but the Rebels can defeat it if they build Luke Skywalker (X-Wing mode) and send him against it."
I'd like to add a bit: To be truly canon, Imp airbases would be huge and common, would pump out TIEs like hell, and would be in space, most of the time. The death star destroys "planets," but to be truly canon, you'd end up destroying the entire map. But you couldn't see the map, because the Death Star (to scale of course) covers the screen.

This is of course extreme to the extreme extremist parameters, but it just shows how bad a game like this can be. If you forget, for a moment, that it's 'Star Wars,' as such, don't you think the books and game and units are good?

Canon would only work to a certain extent. To include the spacecraft that joe loves, you'd have to have huge space maps, or have everything to scale (ie everything but big ships remarkably small). Many pivotal battles in the movies were decided only by fate (there is no fate, there is the Force!) and the skill of the heroes. The Death Star's wouldn't have been destroyed if Luke didn't exist, and he can't exactly be a unit now, can he?

Many essential unit classes and so on are not in the movies. For example, there is the oft-debated class of the Dinosaurian Gungan Starfighters. These were, of course, not in the movie. Neither were Gungan AA troopers. So, to be canon, the gungans would have no defense against air, and would be desecrated (that's not really the right word...) by the mass-TIE tactics of the canon Imperials.

The entire Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series was great. Outcast is one of the best first-person shooters I've ever played. Dark Forces 1 was 'accurately' representing ground combat in the SW universe, and anything can happen in EU... even crazy droid troopers..... and actually, many of the Empire's troopers during the MOVIES were droids!
Those who've read Tales of the Bounty Hunters will get it. But wait, that's not canon. Oh deary me.
Jedi Knight had rather nice force powers. Which exactly were bad? The dark powers were especially like Vader in the movies, if that's what you like, and the light were basically true to those shown by the heroic canon Jedi. If the powers were any different, the game would be unbalanced therefore too hard/too easy therefore boring therefore not fun at all. (I'm not going to mention Mysteries of the Sith, as it was basically the same as JK1. Please don't argue with me on this- I know it was different, but it doesn't relate to my argument about canon etc.)
Outcast improved on the story and force powers. The idea of the Reborn was a rather nice plot twist, providing for some remarkably exciting gameplay. Sabers don't have the 'force,' it was the Valley of the Jedi that created Reborn, but those crystals (I forget the names) ARE the ones used in the movies- check the Visual Dictionaries.

I don't see how these games- and others, eg. X-Wing Alliance and XvT (which you haven't started on yet) 'lame.' If you think this, then why are the movies and other EU books not 'lame'?

Pummels may be a trifle silly, but if they weren't considered to be a 'leftover' from AoK and were present in the movies, what would you think? The concept is good, and it fits in with gameplay (even though I personally don't use them much).

How about just changing the artwork? I'm guessing these ideas are designed for an SW:GB 2, and if you look at the ideas for SW:GB 2 thread, it's clear how many of the proposed unit types could have canon artwork.

Hah. Admiral reckons he has long posts. Time to add another chapter to my 'book'.......

10-03-2002, 06:58 AM
Oh, and I just remembered. About Lord of the Rings games: There have been plenty of board games, all based on the books of course, but come on, they're board games...... There have been several games made and more in progress; two seperate computer game companies have rights to the movies and the books respectively, so there will be competitive games coming out every Christmas or so. (For the years that the movies are released, of course).
I've been checking them out, and it's clear that the movie-based ones are incredibly movie based; they recreate the locations in loving detail, and the characters look practically perfect. But note that they are accurate to the movie characters. Where in the movies did it say that Aragorn looked precisely like Viggo Mortensen? That Balin's Tomb had pillars in each corner? (Or whatever they had). And of course there are the parts that Peter Jackson made up for the movies, including a whole new main character(Lurtz), and the expansion of a small book character (Arwen) into practically the female lead.
A company has purchased the 'table wargaming' rights to LoTR, and have created many units and battles which are not mentioned at all in the books or movies. This is a prime example of how good games must not be entirely canon.

It's now clear that I'm a bit of a LoTR fan as well. :D Um... This may seem a little off-topic, but basically it shows that LoTR does well enough without following the books.

Crazy_dog no.3
10-03-2002, 12:55 PM
Actaully the Gangun's fighters were in the movies (Watch AoTC, or go to the SW Databank (http://www.starwars.com/databank) creature section ;) )

10-03-2002, 01:55 PM
what's the name of it in the creature section? I don't have time to wait for each one that I don't recognize to load...


Crazy_dog no.3
10-03-2002, 02:35 PM
I believe it is the aiwha.

10-03-2002, 05:32 PM
If they can't put capital ships in as a patch or expansion pack or a sequel then at least add ground and air units that are canon units. They are so many units from the movies they haven't used yet. I figure if they do an update on the game it will be to the scenario editor so people can make better, more realistic campaigns and scenarios. It would be cool to have toy box units in the scenario editor like snowtroopers, rebel snowtroopers, endor rebel troopers, imperial navy troopers, imperial officers like the moffs (But don't make them up, use ones from movie like Tarkin or Jerjerrod), .........etc. Maybe add eye candy units like certain droids to add realism, but don't make them combat units (Maybe add them to the gaia).

10-03-2002, 07:23 PM
Yeah, I think that Gungan thing is the aiwha. There was a discussion about that in another thread, I forget which one...

Joe, do your ideas have any reasoning behind them other than 'realism'? Because if there isn't, then we can pretty much destroy everything you say straight off.

Having random droids wandering around doesn't increase realism anyway. It detracts from the SW atmosphere more than anything else would. How can you explain an R2-D2 standing around near a Wampa in the frozen wastelands of Hoth? And note that you sorta can't explain it, considering that people would just play the game, see a droid and say "What the hell..... is this a bug!?"

Admiral Vostok
10-04-2002, 01:07 AM
I think some people missed my point about Lord of the Rings. I'm not saying there was no extra games etc released, I'm saying that these games and what have you didn't need to make up extra things to keep Middle Earth interesting, unlike the Star Wars EU.

CorranSec, I actually play the table top LOTR game. What are you referring to that isn't in the books? There is nothing I can think of that Games Workshop has totally made up.

And I don't think a strictly canon game (with masses of TIEs and no Gungan air defence) is the way to go, but again I stress these don't go AGAINST the movies unlike the pummel and air cruiser. I should also add I'd have no problem with the air cruiser if it's attack looked like a fortress' attack when it's full off troopers (multiple laser beams). It's just that single solid shot that I don't like, it's like nothing in the movies.

I also want to say that while I enjoyed the Thrawn books, it was the Jedi Academy Trilogy that turned me off Star Wars EU for good. That series was the biggest load of crap I have ever read. So many things in that just contradicted the movies. I haven't read it for about eight years so don't ask me for specifics, though.

10-04-2002, 01:42 AM
The majority of the tabletop LoTR game's scenarios were not part of the movies or books. Also, some of the characters require leaps of imagination; the "Kings of Men" and "Dwarf Kings" especially. The magical powers are also remarkably different.

I sorta enjoyed the Academy trilogy, though of course Thrawn and many others were better. It's a real pity you don't know the specifics, because now your argument counts for naught. :eek:

Well, if it's just a few things that you don't like- I personally don't really like the Air Cruiser attack either, a true turbolaser beam would be better- then that's easily changed.

About pummels- read my earlier post.

Admiral Vostok
10-04-2002, 09:43 AM
Okay, maybe the game mechanics are a bit of a stretch, but every model created for the game is canon, in that they are mentioned in the books. The "Kings of Men" are "Dwarf Kings" are based on the ones we see at the start of the film during Galadriel's monologue. Yes, I know we don't see them fight, but they are still CANON characters, which is what this debate is about.

Too bad I can't name specifics, but I'm not willing to subject myself to those books again just to back up my argument. I'll say this, though my details may be wrong and no doubt someone will correct me if I am. One of the main strengths of the Death Star was it's sheer size, and the terror that could inflict. When they take the death star superlaser and put it in the Sun Crusher, it totally goes against the Empire's doctrine of war, which is rule through fear. The EU illustrations of the Sun Crusher don't look scary at all.

I thought of another bad piece of EU - most of the stories in Tales of the Bounty Hunters, Tales from Jabba's Palace, and Tales from Mos Eisley Cantina. If they are to be considered "fact", then just about all of these insignificant characters actually played a minor part in the destiny of the galaxy. Come on! They're background and nothing more.

I also thought of a good peice of EU to illustrate my point. The Han Solo Trilogy is by far my favourite EU. This is because it doesn't conflict with the movies at all, and in some places it even compliments them. Reading the books and then seeing the Jabba the Hutt scene in Special Edition A New Hope, they really work well together. Sure, there are the odd dodgy bits, like Han always resenting the "scruffy" remark before he's even met Leia, but on the whole it works well.

10-04-2002, 07:23 PM
Matrix the answer to your question is Timothy Zahn, who wrote the original EU book series. The trilogy was Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, and The Last Command. I have those books in my room since sixth grade, when i liked star wars alot, and i have been to lazy to get rid of them:D

EDIT:POST 400!!!!! Yahoo!!!

10-05-2002, 06:53 AM
Vostok- your ideas and arguments are based on actually ignoring everything that was stated in the EU material.

About the Sun Crusher- Fear, terror and so on were the tactics of the Emperor and Darth Vader, and basically the tactics of the dark side. Seeing as they were/are... um....... dead, and times have changed, tactics have changed too.
Now it's Daala's tactics. She rules differently. She thinks differently. She acts differently. I think there's even a couple of pages/chapter (a kind of monologue) in one of the books about how Daala's ideas of warfare greatly differ to the brute-force tactics of Palpatine and Vader.

The "Tales Of" anthologies were actually quite good, in my opinion. It's an intruiging fact of any literature that everyone has a story to tell, and the "Tales Of" added depth and flavour to the otherwise faceless 'scenery' characters.

They also filled in bits of the story (the canon story, of course... mostly in Bounty Hunters). We never got to know what Dengar, IG88, Zuckuss and 4LOM did in the intervening time, and what their background story was.
I do agree with you about Boba Fett's story- even though it was well written and action-filled, it was one of the- no, make that THE- most contradictory piece of EU ever published. Other than the fact that it ended with the possible death of Han Solo, it brought in the whole Jaster Mereel thing which was summarily disproved by Episode II.
Take notice, though, that this is the exception, not the rule.

About the "Kings" in LoTR- I was assuming you'd say something like that. This takes more than a stretch, it takes a leap. We neither see them fight nor do we see them do anything other that stand looking at rings. And if the "Kings of Men" are actually the Ringwraiths, how can you explain battles between them? And why do their rings not grant them in-game powers?
As you can see, if it followed totally canon, it would be rather stupid. It's fine the way it is, and so is Star Wars.

Admiral Vostok
10-06-2002, 08:27 PM
CorranSec - okay, I'll give up my argument about the Jedi Academy Trilogy because it appears if repressed those memories. And I'll agree that some of the stories were good, I particularly liked the Zuckuss/4LOM story that showed you the devastation after Hoth. However, some are not. The IG-88 story was worse than the Boba Fett one I reckon. IG-88 uploads his brain to the Death Star? Come-on, he's a minor character. It's just an attempt by the author to make their characters seem more important than they are.

There's another bit of crap EU that just came to mind, though I can't remember what it's from. Someone goes back to Hoth (God knows why) and sees a Wampa with only one arm.

I also thought of my favourite EU - the X Wing series, because for once the books assumed there are characters who can have adventures NOT relating to the exploits of Luke, Leia and Han.

And about the Kings of Men thing - re-read my post, I'm not denying they don't fight. This debate is about CANON CHARACTERS and UNITS, and the Kings of Men are. You'll note I have no objection to seeing the Rebel Alliance battle against the Gungans, which is against CANON EVENTS, but I would like to see canon units in both the Rebels and Gungans, which relates to CANON CHARACTERS and UNITS.

10-06-2002, 09:18 PM
IG-88: Yeah, I guess it was a rather big step to take. It's OK though, because it really didn't make any difference in the movies, and the entire plan was foiled by the Rebels.

Going back to hoth: I believe this was Luke and Callista in Darksaber. They went back because Luke was 'revisiting all the places where he learned about the Force' so that Callista could possibly regain her own Force powers.
It never showed the Wampa actually dying in the movies, and it's a rather good tie-in with events of the past.

X-Wing: I assume you're solely referring to the Rogue Squadron part of the series, and even in there Luke has a cameo and Wedge is a main character.

Kings of Men: OK, I see what you mean now. Sorry.

10-07-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by MadrixTF
Ewok, it would be great to have a battle on the Zone against you, but i am firewalled at work and at home the bandwidth is just plain rediculous - i live in South Africa, still very much 3rd-world in terms of Telco infrastructutre, etc. But they have just recently launched ADSL - but it's still very expensive...

Is it possible to play this game over the Net at 56K analogue?

Sorry i didn't notice your post untill now, 56k is fine aslong as your computer is goodish. The game engine is a good 5 years old when Broadband wasn't very common. You should be fine and lag free in 2v2's or 1v1's.

Admiral Vostok
10-08-2002, 07:55 AM
Yeah, Darksaber would probably be it. Written by Kevin J Anderson right? The guy who wrote the Jedi Academy Trilogy. I never read Darksaber because after reading the JAT I swore I'd never read any more of his books. Besides, the plot outline for Darksaber also made me cringe. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it involve the Hutts building a Death Star? That seems silly to me. And I don't mind the odd tie-in, but Andersons are a bit too explicit. I mean, going to Hoth would be enough, but instead he has to add the one-armed Wampa. The really lame movie tie-in I remember from JAT was when the Rebels storm some Imperial base, and they hear over the loudspeaker "Rebel Troops have entered the base! Rebel Troops have entered the..." cut off with static. I cringed at that part.

I also thought the Wraith Squadron part of the X Wing series was good, I thought the characters were great and a very refreshing change from Luke, Leia and Han.

10-09-2002, 07:09 AM
Thanks for the advise Ewok, i will give it a try from home. I always tried joining 5 or 6 player games - maybe that was a problem as well - i'll try 1v1.

Sithmaster, thanks for the answer regarding th books - actually CorranSec already helped me out with that on a different thread...
i'll check them out though...

Oh and btw, regarding the title of this thread - What about More units / more canon - i'm sure there are enough units in the Star Wars world ...?

Crazy_dog no.3
10-09-2002, 12:44 PM
The more the merrier!

10-09-2002, 11:02 PM
Yeah, Luke, Leia and Han do get a bit boring sometimes. Star Wars authors seem to be somehow 'drawn' to them, like they have to be the main characters. They do bring in other main characters though, like Wedge, Corran, and so on. Actually, some of my favourite characters are the non-canon chars from the Correlion trilogy (Kalenda, Q9-X2, and so on).
Also, each author potrays Luke, Leia and Han (as well as other canon characters, like Chewie and Lando) differently, so it's almost like a new character with each new writer.
And of course there's the children of Han and Leia, who are central characters in many of the post-Academy books, especially the New Jedi Order.

I can't remember that "Rebel Troops have..." thing. Maybe it wasn't a movie tie-in. Maybe Anderson is just drawing on material. Maybe that's what people normally say.

The Hutts are trying to build a kind of Death Star, but not precisely like the original. Why is this a bad plot idea? Actually, during several of the EU serieses (argh! that word again!), characters try to recreate or reuse their predecessors' weapons. Anderson does seem to have a thing for Death Stars though... Oh well.
And that's just one of the many sub-plots running throughout the book.

Er.. anyway, back to the whole canon thingy....
Madrix is right. I was thinking something like that a little while ago. Why can't we just change some artwork and names, or add in a couple of canon units?
Actually, come to think of it, I'm not sure whether additional units could be successfully incorporated into the current game. Why not just make a stand for a greater number of canon units in SW:GB 2? :confused: