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razorace
10-13-2002, 08:56 PM
Hi all, I'm just creating this so people can comment on Release 1 of MotF. The main thread for this Mod is here. (http://66.250.145.38/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74456) I'll be continuously checking and commenting in this thread while Release 1 is the current version of the Mod. Currently, Release 1 doesn't exist yet, but it will hopefully soon. Y, ASk, and I have been doing some serious work on the design and we think the results are going to be great. The current plans for Release 1 is to impliment just the Dodge Skill. We could include more stuff if people want, but that would push back the release date.

And, no, I don't know/can't estimate WHEN Release 1 will be finished, DON'T ASK! I don't like making fake release date estimates.

In addition, I'll not be replying to any other Release 1 thread. It's just too much of a pain to go looking thru the Forum for random posts about the Mod.

Anyway, feedback/suggestions/comments are appreciated.

Razor Ace

razorace
11-06-2002, 02:57 AM
Well, sorry for the lack of updates. I've been spending my time on other things than updating all the time. :)

Anyway, Release 1 is well on track. Hopefully, it'll be ready to go in about a week. Release 1 will contain that LEAST the following...

Release 1:

1. Dodge fully up and running
2. (1) Super Secret Easter Egg (Two Words: Justice Zone)

Anyway, that's all for now.

Razor Ace

acdcfanbill
11-07-2002, 04:14 AM
*waits patiently*

hehe, anyway, i like you design idead razor, this mod sounds like it will shape up to be a great thing:D

razorace
11-09-2002, 08:01 PM
Progess Report 11/9/02:

Got a second compile version of MotF up and running. The easter egg appears to be fully working except for a possible minor bug. As for Dodge, dodge IS operational except I must have screwed up the math SOMEWHERE because both Dodge and FP was regening a LOT faster than they should. This makes everyone invincible to player damage but I should have it fixed soon.

As for the visuals of dodge, I don't feel it's looking as good as I want it to. You only dodge once per saber swing so the blade still passes thru your body most of the time. :P In addition, I don't think the dodge is moving fast enough. On the plus side, it's got a cool real-time, matrix-style motion blur to the dodges that I didn't expect.

So basically, things are well on the way and progessing well. :)

Razor Ace

razorace
11-14-2002, 05:53 AM
Progress Report 11/14/02

I now have a bug-free version of the early Release 1 code up and running. Things are taking longer than anticipted to get everything to work/look the way it SHOULD.

Mathmatically, the dodge code is perfect (except for map damage), but right now the visuals don't look "right". A saber swing will still pass thru the body (visually) due to the code only dodging once per attack (due to the way damage is dealt). I'm going to attempt to make the character hop back a little bit, in addition to the visual dodge, to eliminate the problem. Of course, this adds the problem of it being possible to suicide by dodging your way off a cliff. However, it shouldn't be too much of a problem as it's only a slight hop back AND dodge will work for fall deaths as well. On the plus side, this will add a additional point of realism (since you can in fact accidently reflexively dodge your way off a cliff) and encourage players to keep a slight distance from any bottomless pits.

In addition, the current dodge animation priorty is too low. You'll rarely do the dodge animations unless you're not attacking and not have your saber ignited.

As for map damage, the best solution I can think of is to have the game deduct a sizable amount of DP/HP and have the player teleport to a random respawn. This sims the concept of the character surviving the fall (ether thru the Force or a gadget (like a jetpack) and running back up to the combat area). For now this will apply to everyone, but it should be refined later. For example, some characters obviously can't survive a fall like that (like a Storm Trooper) and others can (Jedi/Boba Fett/etc.) In addition, we'll probably create some new map triggers to make this ability more beleivible. Like a trigger location for fall death dodge (like an elevator or a ship that flies up whenever a player dodges the fall death) and a "undodgeable" fall death trigger for locations where you couldn't probably survive the fall (getting knocked out of a airlock or falling off the edge of Cloud City).

If anyone has a better solution to these problems please let me know.

In summary, things are still coming along, so please don't think the project has been abandoned. :)

Razor Ace

razorace
11-18-2002, 09:09 PM
Progress Report 11/18/02

ok, people. I got the animation priorty problem fixed as while as various new additions to the system. I'm going to need everyone that wants to be a REAL betatester to contact me. There's a lot of new varibles that need to be twicked for the better feel/balance. Release 1 will be completed soon. :)

Razor Ace

Juveli
11-20-2002, 05:14 AM
I really like this new division into Fatigue/Dodge. I've always considered the personal shield a bit silly.

Keep up the good work!

razorace
11-20-2002, 01:58 PM
Thanks!

razorace
12-11-2002, 12:02 AM
Progress Report 12/10/02

Sorry about the lack of updates, I was on vacation for turkey week and haven't gotten back into the swing of things until now. Great progress has been made. I'm sorry about the constant pushing back of estimated release dates. Things just keep coming up that just BEG to be messed with (such as the new true lethal weapon damage rates).

Anyway, I'm going to stick to my guns and get this bad boy's Release 1 out the door before Christmas if I can. :)

Razor Ace

razorace
12-16-2002, 07:16 AM
Well, I got good news and bad news.

Good News:
I'm confident that the team will have Release 1 ready and out the door by Xmas. Probably before the end of the week.

Bad News:
I screwed up the code, BAD. I've got at least 1 really weird cvar crash bug and the bot animations are screwing up.

Good News:
In progress of screwing up the code, I figured out how to get Dodge Attack to work. For those who don't know what Dodge Attack is, it's the ability to be able to fire your weapons while dodging. It's complicated to get working because I'm dealing with animations/code that were never meant to be used this way. The biggie is making it look good. Fortunately, when me and ACDCFanBill tested the prototype it worked/looked great, so that's not a issue. I was planning to release some screenies but the code got screwed up before I could get the shots. :P

Bad News:
I gotta rewrite the Dodge Attack code.

Good News:
I backed up the code right before I started to mess with the Dodge Attack concept so no good code was lost. (in fact, I didn't 'loss' any code, including the broken stuff. I just have to go back to the latest backup and start from there to insure that I get the stuff to work without bugs.) I should be able to get it working again tomorrow and will hopefully prevent the serious bugs that were plaguing me.

Bad News:
My internet connection sucks.

Good News:
That means that there's a big opportunity for people to betatest for the mod. Just contact me and I'll provide you with some contact information. Using that info, contact me in "person" so I can get you set up and ready to beta test. The only requirements are you've gotta be able to keep all team info/files secret, betatest only with bots or other team members, stay in contact with me, and follow instructions well. This is serious betatesting so we're not exactly just playing the mod. The testing needs change minute to minute while I code, so it's critical that you can communicate with me while I'm awake/coding on the #motf IRC channel. I reserve the right to send you packing if I don't like you or you give me crap. Also, this isn't a free way to get the mod. I do keep track of who gets what so I CAN track you down and bust your ass if you try to leak the mod to the public.

Bad News:
This mod's going to be a bandwidth hog.

Good News:
It's only as bad as JK2 is normally. Dodge is damaged based so it can't be predicted by the clients. Wether it's frame skippy or not directly depends on your connection. Dodge happens very quickly and if you blink/lag, you'll often miss it.

Razor Ace

N0V4
12-16-2002, 03:39 PM
So this will be a x-mas present.
Btw, I saw anoterh mod with dodging, can't rememebr wich though, so they can help you if anythign goes wrong i guess ;)


I can't wait till x-mas.

razorace
12-16-2002, 04:42 PM
MotF's Dodge is far more intregrated than Style Over Substance's Force Avoid Power. It's a feature of ALL gamemodes, all players, and at all times, and works against stuff other than the lightsaber.

razorace
12-17-2002, 01:53 AM
Ok-dokie, it's show and tell time. I've very, very quickly whipped up some screenshots for your enjoyment. I'll list each one seperately and add a little commentary to each.

Here we go...

razorace
12-17-2002, 01:59 AM
http://personal.palouse.net/razorace/shot0001.jpg

Ok, there are 3 things I'll say about this screeny.

1. This is the first MotF screenshot EVER. Wooooh!
2. The shot shows Lando in the middle of a Dodge. Note his ducking movement and the afterimage.
3. His shields are flaring because some of the damage got past his Dodge (DP for short). Shields are eventually going to be replaced with more realistic armor. For now, they'll stay.

razorace
12-17-2002, 02:06 AM
http://personal.palouse.net/razorace/shot0002.jpg

This time the shot is of the main player (me) dodging an attack from Lando. I'll point out the new Dodge Meter in the upper-left hand of the screen. Y is creating a bunch of new HUDs for the game so this implimentation of the Dodge Meter is only temp. until we get the new ones in place.

razorace
12-17-2002, 02:11 AM
http://personal.palouse.net/razorace/shot0003.jpg

Another shot of me and Lando. I'm in the middle of doing the Dodge/weapon visuals so the Hit Spark Effect during Dodge hasn't been removed yet. The Hit Spark Effect will only occur when a hit actually lands when I'm done.

razorace
12-17-2002, 02:18 AM
http://personal.palouse.net/razorace/shot0004.jpg

Another Dodge shot.

razorace
12-17-2002, 02:24 AM
http://personal.palouse.net/razorace/shot0005.jpg

This is a shot of what the Dodge/weapon Visuals will look like when I'm done. The biggie here is when Lando dodged this disruptor shot, the beam continued pass him and hit the far wall. (The hit flare is coloring Lando's afterimage because it's transparent.)

A interesting tidbit, the prior 5 screenshots actually take up more space than the actual mod. (it's currently around half a meg in size) The team is being sure to keep all the "extras" out of the mod so you only have to d/l the mod instead of the mod + whatever models the creators like. :)

That's the last screenshot for now. I'll open the thread up for Q & A at this time.

razorace
12-20-2002, 06:20 AM
I've just uploaded Release 1 to my personal webspace, jediknightii.net, and jk2files.com. Feel free to d/l it from the personal webspace until it's up on the two main sites.

http://personal.palouse.net/razorace/MotFR1.zip

http://www.jk2files.com

http://www.jediknightii.net

Enjoy!

Also, I'm heading home for X-Mas so my dedication to the Mod maybe lacking for a couple of weeks. :)

I'm beat. I'm going to bed.

Happy Christmas,
Razor Ace

ArtifeX
12-20-2002, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by razorace
I've just uploaded Release 1 to my personal webspace, jediknightii.net, and jk2files.com. Feel free to d/l it from the personal webspace until it's up on the two main sites.

http://personal.palouse.net/razorace/MotFR1.zip

http://www.jk2files.com

http://www.jediknightii.net

Enjoy!

Also, I'm heading home for X-Mas so my dedication to the Mod maybe lacking for a couple of weeks. :)

I'm beat. I'm going to bed.

Happy Christmas,
Razor Ace

Glad to hear your progress, Razorace! The community is sure to be helped out by another major mod being available. I'll be sure to check it out soon.

razorace
12-20-2002, 02:27 PM
Thanks Artifex. :) I hope so too. A ton of people aren't playing the game anymore.

In other news, I've converted the screenshot images inside the thread into links to keep the thread load time down.

FenixDown
12-22-2002, 04:16 AM
it's excellent...

...saber fighting seems to be more fun when this mod is in use.

tufkal
12-22-2002, 12:40 PM
I love the mod razor. And I agree with FenixDown, sabre fighting IS more fun with this mod on. Huge portions of the game havent changed, its got some simple beautiful changes. Few things id LOVE to see

1)Everything discussed in your dev thread, including the jetpack mod, more realistic shields, a new HUD, and the class-like system u discussed

2)I was told they make no matter in a fight, but some people love em for the look. two sabres, and a dbl sabre

3)Emotes are fun :)


THings IMHO that ruin a mod

1)Hilts hilts hilts wtf, you can barely see the hilts as is, and the default one is fine! Waste of time and messy UI IMHO

Mex
12-22-2002, 01:36 PM
Very nice work RazorAce!
It is quite fun playing with your mod, you feel more 'jedi-ish'

And you can kill people in 3 shots with the blaster now, it makes the game more realistic rather than doing 20 shots to kill someone!

Rating 8.6/10

Could use some emotes, make the new HUD look better, and its quite hard to kill someone with a saber when you have a saber to.

Keep working on this mod, vert good :nod:

razorace
12-22-2002, 04:27 PM
did a little test today and i love it .

unfortunately,a few people were complaining saying duels took to long,oh well for them


1. If they don't complain to me directly, I can't know about it.
2. Duels are SUPPOSE to last a while. When was the last time you've seen a 30 saber duel in one of the movies. :)
3. A lot of the current saber "problems" in inherent to the Raven's mindset for the saber code. I'm planning on redoing that after I finish up some details on Dodge and impliment Herr's better hitzone code.


it's excellent...

...saber fighting seems to be more fun when this mod is in use.


Thanks, I think so too. :)

More replies later.

Alesh
12-22-2002, 07:24 PM
I tried the mod and I think it can be great (for now it doesn't have enough stuff to keep using it, but i'm sure i'm gonna end up using some later version) altough i found a little problem when shootting flechette's secondary fire: it seemed to impact in me (it exploded before even seeing the grenades or whatever they are)

Apart from this little problem (I've never liked this weapon anyway :P) I've had some ideas:

Changes to saber blocking: I think it should spend dodge points (but less than a normal dodge, also dependant on defense level. like -25% lvl 1, -50% lvl 2, -75% lvl 3) and be used instead of the dodging animation when possible (when being attacked in a saber fight, for what i have tested, you dodge even if you could usually block the hit), also if you put in some kind of jedi vs merc kind of game mode, you could make it so the more force you ahve left, the lest dodging/blocking costs (maybe reducing the cost in 1/2 or 1/4 the % force you still have, or something like).

I'd change the lightsaber special moves, except the blue one: you must be already jumping to execute the move, and the move doesn't make you jump any more, you just do the superheavy slash in the direction you are currently jumping, or flip in mid air and do that weird yellow stance cut (unless of curse, it ends up making ppl fly like the blue one did).

I think the force powers would need some changes too to be more movie-like:
-You should be able to jump as high as your force allows (we've seen some really high jumps in the new movies), and something like if you pressed your jump button while falling, make it spend force to avoid damage (should spend something like the cost to jump at the same height, inspired by Mace Windu jumping to the arena).
-Being able to block force lightning with the lightsaber (no dodging) but maybe at normal dodge cost instead of the reduced blocking cost (or spending force instead).
-Some resistance to force powers (push, pull, grip...) depending on how much force you have left.
-Changing Absorption to be something like what Yoda does to Dooku's Lightning (you have to hold the button and aim to absorb things, lvl 1 should just cancel the power, lvl 2 should give you some force, and level 3 should reflect some of the effect).

FenixDown
12-22-2002, 09:05 PM
...so can ya give us a hint about (or to unlock) this semi-secret easter egg?

razorace
12-22-2002, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Alesh
I tried the mod and I think it can be great (for now it doesn't have enough stuff to keep using it, but i'm sure i'm gonna end up using some later version) altough i found a little problem when shootting flechette's secondary fire: it seemed to impact in me (it exploded before even seeing the grenades or whatever they are)
Yeah, we just noticed that. Alt Fire for the Flechette isn't working in Release 1. It's a really easy fix thou. It'll be fine in Release 2.

Changes to saber blocking: I think it should spend dodge points (but less than a normal dodge, also dependant on defense level. like -25% lvl 1, -50% lvl 2, -75% lvl 3) and be used instead of the dodging animation when possible (when being attacked in a saber fight, for what i have tested, you dodge even if you could usually block the hit), also if you put in some kind of jedi vs merc kind of game mode, you could make it so the more force you ahve left, the lest dodging/blocking costs (maybe reducing the cost in 1/2 or 1/4 the % force you still have, or something like).
Actually, saber blocking will take Fatigue Points (FP) in the near future. FP will replace Force Points.

As for adjustable DP/FP costs, we've discussed this and we don't think it's a good idea. It makes things more complicated for the coders and the players, and it's not really nessicarily when we could just change the base DP costs. But anyway, FP will sort of be the feature you want; blocking, attacking, running, etc. will cost FP.

Dodge only occurs if you have already failed your block attempt and are going to take damage. We may or may not use saber block as Dodge. However. changing it would probably make it feel like you're losing DP for no reason.

I'd change the lightsaber special moves, except the blue one: you must be already jumping to execute the move, and the move doesn't make you jump any more, you just do the superheavy slash in the direction you are currently jumping, or flip in mid air and do that weird yellow stance cut (unless of curse, it ends up making ppl fly like the blue one did).
I'm not sure what you're talking about. I haven't messed with any of the actual saber move mechanics. I've only upped the damage.

I think the force powers would need some changes too to be more movie-like.....
Noted, all of those things are already planned. :)

razorace
12-22-2002, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by FenixDown
...so can ya give us a hint about (or to unlock) this semi-secret easter egg?
Not right now. Once we've got a website up and running we'll post it on the site.

Alesh
12-23-2002, 06:18 AM
Actually, saber blocking will take Fatigue Points (FP) in the near future. FP will replace Force Points.

As for adjustable DP/FP costs, we've discussed this and we don't think it's a good idea. It makes things more complicated for the coders and the players, and it's not really nessicarily when we could just change the base DP costs. But anyway, FP will sort of be the feature you want; blocking, attacking, running, etc. will cost FP.

Thats fine too :P

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I haven't messed with any of the actual saber move mechanics. I've only upped the damage.

That wouldn't be much of a change really, it would just change the way the moves are done, so they wouldn't be limited to just 1 exact move (ie you could jump forward and exec the yellow special while turning making something similar to the yellow special in SP) anyway it's not a big change and it might not work well (and some moves could look a little weird).

razorace
12-23-2002, 03:51 PM
So, you want the team to restore the slight yellow special move varation found in MP? Or do you want new moves?

OH, you mean remove the movement lock on the specials. :) uuummmm, no. The saber code handles damage based on a simple touch = damage system. To remove the movement locks only turns certain moves into spin fests to maximize damage coverage.

Well, the plan is to add additional "Finishing Moves" at some point. We're going with the concept that there's no such thing as a truely "special" move in saber combat. If you make any move "better" than the others, people WILL spam it. All the saber moves will be even and fair in MotF.

Razor Ace

razorace
12-23-2002, 04:02 PM
One more thing,and im not sure if its a bug.

I joined a MotF server,and all the elements were there(dodge etc),but there was no dodge meter in the top left.

So i left and went to another server that was running it,and low and behold,it was there. Is this just a glitch?

I'm not really sure what the problem is. Did you d/l and install the game before you playing that first time? MotF has some client components that are required for the Dodge Meter and some other things to work. I'm not sure if the autod/l runs these files on the first game or not. (AKA you may have to restart the game first.) OR maybe the server you were playing on had the game install in a non-standard folder.

What servers are running MotF and how do most of you people locate them? Filters?

Alesh
12-23-2002, 06:35 PM
I wasn't speaking about turning around (which isn't that bad unless abused) but the movement (in the yellow special: jump up & a little forward while doing the move, in red: jump forward while doing the move), my idea was being able to control the moving direction and speed, the move should only make the model do the animation (and damage).
It would be something like doing an emote in mid air, it wouldn't change your jump or anything, you would just move in a strange way in mid-air (try breakdancing in mid-air, it looks weird but might show you what i mean).

razorace
12-23-2002, 06:41 PM
Oh, ok. Well, I probably could disable the side strafe movement lock. Obviously, the ability to change the way you're pointing the saber couldn't be unlocked due to abuse. I'll mess with it when I get to it. :)

ryudom
12-23-2002, 07:03 PM
whats an emote? you know you can already do a mid air medium special right? (in 1.04 anyway)

razorace
12-23-2002, 08:54 PM
An emote is an animation that shows an expression, like waving to a person, nodding, etc. They're normally totally unimportant to gameplay.

Hekx
12-23-2002, 09:14 PM
Lovely mod :)

The dodging does make it more like the movies since Luke does some dodging laser blasts in ROTJ on Jabbas Sail Barge and during the duel with Vader in ROTJ, there's some ducks and dodges there :)

Maybe if you implemented some of the features from JediMod (emotes / hilts / tck saber code) it would also be more like the movies since in basejk2 everyone has the same hilt and has limited colours while Jedi's hilts and sabers colours are personal to them. Plus emotes make the game more fun :xp:

Maybe you can also add the mod_skillmode command to the actual gameplay for instance: if someone got hit in the head with a saber; they would die. In JK2; it'd mostly do the same damage as if you hit them in the leg.

You may also want to add the ability to dismember hands / disable weapon hands so they are unable to shoot (Jango / Mace in EPII)

The possibilities are endless :)

I personally would like to see some of the JediMod features added to make the game more bright aswell as adding new features similar to the SW universe.

Alesh
12-24-2002, 03:12 PM
Just a little question i have... what's the plan for force sight? I mean, seeing mine beams and dodging sniper fire is a lot less useful with the dodging system. Is it gonna do something else? (maybe lessen the dodge cost because you "see" the future and have more time to react?)

razorace
12-24-2002, 03:28 PM
The hit location-based damage is planned but the current hitzone code is REALLY crappy. Until I install Herr's improved hitzone code, it's not worth doing. The current code is SO bad that you can hit a player in the back from the FRONT with the saber!

Weapon destruction is also planned but I haven't explored it yet.

However, maiming will remain a death only feature. There are too many gameplay/technical issues to make it work while being alive. The saber combat system isn't accurate enough to be able to aim for hand hits anyway. You're always out of the fight when you get maimed in the movies, anyway. :)

I'm going to type officially on the record here. THERE WILL BE NO CUT AND PASTE MODDING IN MOTF!

The objective isn't to be JediMod with Dodging. While JediMod is cool, it's really just a gimmack mod for JK2. The MotF has no intention of being the same way. This isn't a diss to Dest or the other JM/JP+/Forcemod modders. I really respect the things Dest, TCK, and others have done with the code.

We're aimming for new features that actually change the gameplay to be more movie-like. That means that emots, RGB sabers, sabers out of the ass, etc will be implimented when we can make them truely part of the gameplay, near the end of the project, or as we feel like it.

This doesn't mean that we aren't listening or enjoying your feedback. We just don't want people to expect us to bend over backwards to impliment stuff that screws up/has not relivence on the gameplay.

Thank you,
Razor Ace

razorace
12-24-2002, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Alesh
Just a little question i have... what's the plan for force sight? I mean, seeing mine beams and dodging sniper fire is a lot less useful with the dodging system. Is it gonna do something else? (maybe lessen the dodge cost because you "see" the future and have more time to react?)

That's a good question. We're still in the concept stage but the general plan is to replace Force Seeing with Force Sense which is basically represents your ability to use the Force to see/feel things that you can't normally see. How this will work in practice is still up to the design team debate. :)

Alesh
12-24-2002, 06:24 PM
Well whatever it ends doing, judging by the name i'd say it should be a passive power (you dont need to activate it).

More questions:

What about heal? when 90% of the weapons kill you in 1 shot or don't hurt you at all it starts to be a little unuseful... the only idea i have about this one is making your dodge points recover at a faster rate or something like.

And drain? won't it be too useful? (if you turn force into fatigue points or whatever)

Some ideas:

Lightning: In the movies it doesn't seem to do damage really, it seems to stun people (it hurts but it seems like it would take some time to kill somebody with it), so i'd say it should destroy the target's fatigue points, slow him down, and when he's low on fatigue points, throw him to the ground , and maybe after the target reaches 0 start to hurt, but not too much, the main use for this should be to stun (dooku seems to be able to move the target of his lightning but i think this would be too much).

Drain: darining energy from blasters, wookie crossbows... (maybe even turning off a lightsaber for small periods of time?) and turning it into fatigue points is the only thing which i can think of (i think i read somewhere somebody does it in the expanded universe).

Grip: I've never seen a jedi gripped in any movie, so i think they are kind of inmune, so i'd make the effect of grip dependant on the reamining fatigue points (i'm guessing jedi would have more than an imperial admiral...).

Rage: seeing luke in RotJ i'd make it give you speed (only for slashes, not for running) and attacking without spending fatigue points (i'm not sure if attacking is gonna cost a lot, but it looks like something similar to this when luke hits vader repeatedly).

Mind trick: i can't really think of any way to putting it here and looking like in the movies, my only idea is to make it passive and counter Force Seeing (or Sense if you preffer).

Protection: like rage but free (cheaper?) dodging? I'm really unsure about this one, the only similar thing i can think of is vader stopping han's blaster with his hand, but i think it has more to do with his arm being robotic than his powers with the force (not to mention he's a sith...).

Absorption: as i said, must hold the button to be effective, turns the "incoming" force into fatigue points for you and maybe reflects the % which exceeds your fatigue limit to the attacker (lvl 1 33% converted/rflected, lvl 2 66% lvl 3 100%, maybe?).

Healing: I don't think theres anything similar in the movies, I'd stick to the faster fatigue regen idea (and maybe at lvl 2 and/or 3 some health regen too, although it won't be noticed a lot).

Force seeing: maybe it could enable some kind of radar, which has a diferent radius and shows diferent stuff depending on level (lvl 1: mines & det packs, short radius; lvl 2: other players, med radius; lvl 3: "slow" projectiles (missiles, thermal det, repeaters alt fire...), long radius).

Saber throw: I think the saber should take some time to throw, for now this hits faster than any of the blue style slashes.

razorace
12-24-2002, 09:44 PM
Heal: Gone, HP shouldn't be recoverable in any sort of reasonable. And, it's basically useless with lethal weapon damage anyway. Probably replaced with a FP recovering "sit"/"Meditate" etc. "emot". Of course, you'll be totally open to attack while in this rest emot.

Rage: Gone, but "Call on the Dark Side" servers the same concept you suggested.

Absorb: probably replaced with some sort of general Force Skill for Force Power deflection. Not sure how this will work yet. We gotta have a setup so light-siders can deflect lightning, grip, etc.

Protection: Gone

Mind Trick: Probably just generate a noise whereever you point the crosshair.

Saber Toss: will act much more like as if you TOSSED the saber. Add a bit of a wind up, and make the saber drop to the ground on collision.

Anyway, I do agree with most of your assessment, a lot of that stuff is already planned to some degree.

willum_10
12-28-2002, 09:16 PM
I just wanted to let you know man, I can't even play JK without your mod on anymore...thanks so much for this, and best of luck in the future improving on this already amazing mod and concept.


once again, thanks.:)

C'jais
12-29-2002, 03:42 AM
Fantastic work thus far!

Blaster rifle/Bryar

I appreciate very much the work you have done to the bowcaster - it's really great now and actually feels useful now that the shot's speed have been upped considerably.
It appears you have done the same to the bryar and blaster, which is all fine and good.
However, the bryar is now just as good as the blaster: same attack speed (ROF), lethal damage (the blaster's may be slightly higher but that's irrelevant since it's very high in the first place) and same shot speed. The Bryar has become the blaster, the blaster previous advantage of increased rate of fire is now negated, making me prefer the bryar any day.

Increase the rate of fire on the blaster, make it superior to the bryar, make it more of a "basic weapon" than the bryar. It doesn't help either that it costs more to fire the blaster in ammo.

In short: The blaster rifle should be the basic weapon of most gunners IMHO - true movie/SW style.

DEMP

The DEMP gun is lethal. Very lethal. It's shots cannot be blocked, making it a futile effort to close the distance to a gunner wielding this weapon as a saber wielding jedi: the dodge animation will continually disrupt any action you make, be it moving, attacking or even trying to pull the damn thing out of his hands.

This is a general problem with most guns in this mod - spamming the enemy will cause him to dodge and stop him firmly in his tracks - the dodging animation becomes more of a hindrance than a help, since you cannot move closer or attack the gunner.

No saber parrying

Another problem closely connected with this is, is that you rarely block shots with your saber now - it seems as if the jedi is content with letting the dodging do its work, and forgetting to use his saber, which doesn't drain force. I don't know what causes this, but I suspect it to be that its a vastly lowered blocking radius' fault. The answer might just be to increase the blocking radius, which means dodging will only be used for shots that are coming from the side or behind. A jedi shouldn't need to dodge blaster shots from the front - in the movies they solely use their saber for protecting the front.

Sabercombat (no dodging)

When it's saber vs saber combat, however, the dodging is rarely used - I just played an hour of FFA with bots, and not a single time did they dodge attacks in sabercombat. More dodging in sabercombat (though not as much as when currently facing a gunner), a little less blocking to mix the two.

Another gripe with sabercombat is that it's über lethal. Enemies fall like flies before a single swipe of yellow stance. I don't know what you meant with "sabercombats shouldn't last 30 seconds" -but for me, they don't even last 10 seconds.

That is all, I can see you're on the right track, and I really hope you continue improving this great mod :thumbsup:

razorace
12-29-2002, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by willum_10
I just wanted to let you know man, I can't even play JK without your mod on anymore...thanks so much for this, and best of luck in the future improving on this already amazing mod and concept.

Woah! First groupie. Sweet! :D

razorace
12-29-2002, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Cjais
[B]Fantastic work thus far!

Blaster rifle/Bryar

Increase the rate of fire on the blaster, make it superior to the bryar, make it more of a "basic weapon" than the bryar. It doesn't help either that it costs more to fire the blaster in ammo.

In short: The blaster rifle should be the basic weapon of most gunners IMHO - true movie/SW style.

Well, there were some balance issues with the secondary fire on the blaster. With the boosted bolt speeds, secondary fire would actually hit the player faster than they could react/saber block. Death was near instantanous after you started hitting the target. We've been discussing if we should go to a semi-auto gun triggering system (manual trigger pulling but with an added accuracy penalty for movement/rapid firing) but there's nothing final yet. There's also an issue of the rifle/pistol relationship in the movies. The heroes seem to have no difference in weapon performance between using a blaster rifle and a blaster pistol.


DEMP

This is a general problem with most guns in this mod - spamming the enemy will cause him to dodge and stop him firmly in his tracks - the dodging animation becomes more of a hindrance than a help, since you cannot move closer or attack the gunner.


You stop in place? That shouldn't happen. You're suppose to move at x .9 normal speed while dodging. Are you sure you have the client part of the mod running while playing the game?

Anyway, yes, dodge does screw you up but that's sort of a game feature. When you are dodging out of the way of an attack, you do drop everything you're doing.

Anyway, I do have a workaround of sorts. It's called Dodge Attack. It enables you to attack while dodging. It looks pretty cool but I'm having some crash issues. It will probably be up and working for Release 2. However, there'll have to be some sort of penalty for attacking during a dodge. probably an accuracy loss for guns and a damage loss for the sabers. This is an game changing feature so it will probably be the first officially approved togglable cvar.


No saber parrying

I haven't made any changes other than damage levels for the saber combat. We'll be working on that at some point in the future.

Well, my lunch is ready. gotta go for now!

Razor Ace

Alesh
01-02-2003, 02:05 AM
Some more questions:

What about kicks and punches (in case you add them, but since maul "punches" qui gon i thought you would), can you dodge them too? or even better... can you block a kick & cut the kickers (or punchers if it's a punch) leg? (pretty obious i don't like kicks? :P)

razorace
01-02-2003, 09:21 AM
Kicking and punch can probably be done with some animation remixing. We'll probably set it up so you can only melee attack an opponent (without getting hit with the saber) when he's off guard from a parry (maybe make punch/kick be part of a combo) or when he's holding a non-saber weapon.

Alesh
01-03-2003, 07:20 AM
So... any guess on when are we going to see release 2?

razorace
01-03-2003, 08:18 AM
Not tomorrow. :D

Seriously, I won't even start on it until I'm done visiting my family for the holidays. (sometime next week.) After that, I gotta get with the rest of the team and figure out what we want to do next. So, I honestly don't know at this point.

Alesh
01-03-2003, 01:34 PM
I think i liked the mod too much :P

SeiGFReiD
01-04-2003, 12:45 AM
hey...just downloaded the mod...I love it...there's a few things that could use tweaking though (take these with a grain of salt though...testing done with bots since I cant find a server that runs MOTF yet...if anyone has one please post it!) Blue stance is WAYY to powerful in MOTF...just throw saber once or twice to drain dodge and then run up and n00b away...1-3 hits and person goes down...red stance is exact opposite...way too weak because the other person dodges your hits and since you cant unleash a madd furry of attacks then they seem to never loose their dodge meter enuf to hit them...not really sure how to balance these things out...but I'm sure you'll think of somethin' also...crossbow seems useless completely now since everytime you dodge it makes you stop firing your weapon like the reload...so it kinda never fires if you get shot at alot...umm...other than that I havent noticed too many things...other than the Darth Sidious bot I have loves to n00b spam the lightning :) hehe...kinda appropriate...but thats off topic...keep up the good work...I might become completely addicted (still love runnin' around with maul with dual saber and tryin to kill yoda's :) hehe...) l8rz!

acdcfanbill
01-04-2003, 09:19 AM
Well, this is a very early release of motf, and for the final version, the saber combat will be so changed i doubt you will recognise it... :D this is just to give you an idea of the dodge power Razor implimented i believe...

razorace
01-04-2003, 12:45 PM
Bill is correct. I haven't messed with the saber code much yet. As is, it's pretty crappy since Raven's saber code isn't designed for Dodge and other new game changes. We're planning some pretty heavy duty changes to the saber system at some point in the future.

I know there aren't any servers. I simply don't have the money or hardware to host some. If anyone really likes the mod and have the hardware, I'm sure servers will pop up eventually.

Razor Ace

SeiGFReiD
01-06-2003, 02:50 AM
ooh...sounds good to me :) saber combat is lacking in realism...I've really become addicted to u guy's mod...been playin the BFP mod for q3a to hold off my insanity of not being able to play anything but bots...so hopefully in the next week or so server's will start poppin' up...until then maybe I can find a good programmed bot...didnt think about that one...anyways...you guys rock and keep it up!

Alesh
01-06-2003, 07:18 AM
A few more ideas:

Make the "off" hilt stay in the belt, I'm tired of carrying it in the hand :P

Maybe Force Sense (replacement for Force Seeing) could give some kind of Spiderman's danger sense, showing the force sight icon or something when somebody is aiming at you, or there's a projectile going to your direction, or, the harder (I think) idea, would be showing the path of the projectiles (ie a blue line, like the mine laser seen with force sight) so you know where will they go so you can dodge them.

I think animation priorities should be reworked, ie. is a little weird when someone is trying to hit you with a heavy slash, you cut them with a fast slash, and they almost don't notice (i know they sometimes do, but not always, and this is in the case they are not able to dodge and they don't die from 1 hit), i think i said it before but the dodge animation seems to almost always replace the blocking animation,

razorace
01-06-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Alesh
A few more ideas:

Make the "off" hilt stay in the belt, I'm tired of carrying it in the hand :P

Maybe Force Sense (replacement for Force Seeing) could give some kind of Spiderman's danger sense, showing the force sight icon or something when somebody is aiming at you, or there's a projectile going to your direction, or, the harder (I think) idea, would be showing the path of the projectiles (ie a blue line, like the mine laser seen with force sight) so you know where will they go so you can dodge them.
That's a good idea. I'll look into it but it might be too much of a cpu hog to impliment that many additional trace calls. As for the blue line thing, I think it would screw up the look too much. You'd have 50 zillion lines in the air at once. Plus, with the new bolt speeds it won't help you much anyway. :)


I think animation priorities should be reworked, ie. is a little weird when someone is trying to hit you with a heavy slash, you cut them with a fast slash, and they almost don't notice (i know they sometimes do, but not always, and this is in the case they are not able to dodge and they don't die from 1 hit), i think i said it before but the dodge animation seems to almost always replace the blocking animation,
That's mostly a hit detection issue more than anything. The saber is visually swinging thru the player's body but it's not registering a hit. I might fix that at some point.

However, I'll see if I can make the system make blocking scans during a dodge. The current system makes it too easy to get dodge comboed to death.

Alesh
01-06-2003, 04:51 PM
I forgot another one:

Force Speed, i think the 50 (i think) force points cost just to activate it is really weird, id make it just like a toggle, and when its on, it spends force depending on the move you do (ie: standing still costs 0 fp, running costs x/second, attakcings y/second and so on), I think it would be more """realistic""" this way.

P.S: ...until then maybe I can find a good programmed bot...
the best Bot i've found (for saber combat at least) is the QuiGonVM3, for guns id go with Jango Fett from the mandalorian pack.

razorace
01-06-2003, 06:38 PM
I agree. All continous force powers will have a simple per second FP cost.

Alesh
01-07-2003, 11:34 AM
I've been thinking about something... a Die by the Sword like sword system is not very likely isn't it? :P (If you don't know what I mean there's a demo of the game at http://ftp.interplay.com/pub/demos/dbtsdemo.zip)

razorace
01-07-2003, 12:22 PM
Die by the Sword had an interesting system but it wasn't very useful in it's freestyle mode. It was ether too sloppy or overally sensitive. It might work good if there was some sort of varible resistance on the control system but it would require some serious play testing.

However, it's not really doable in JK2. It would require a total code rewrite. And that's a bit above the call of duty for our mod. :) Now, if we had access to Id's source AND had some financial support, yes. But, unless pigs start flying suddenly, I don't think that's going to happen. :)

Alesh
01-07-2003, 12:55 PM
That's what i thought... damn i want an improved die by the sword (even better with lightsabers :P)

razorace
01-07-2003, 01:05 PM
Sorry. I think our current concept system will probably be better than that anyway. :)

Alesh
01-07-2003, 01:26 PM
Now you really got my interest (plus moving the sword however you want seems to be better for RV...).

Any hints on what are the changes gonna be? (or how is the collision system different from raven's)

razorace
01-07-2003, 03:09 PM
RV?

I haven't checked out the current hit detection system so I'm not sure I can do much to improve it.

Anyway, the plan is to totally "redo" the saber system into "Stances" and "Aggression Modes".

Stances will be different style/school sets of moves (NOTE: These will probably just be rehashes of the current moves until someone figures out a way to add new animations.) ALL stances will be pretty much the same (-+ 25% stat difference, tops) so this will be more of a style choice than anything else.

Aggression Modes are the new bread and butter of the saber system. Aggression is made up of three modes (Defense/Neutral/Attack).

Neutral:

The Basic mode. This mode is for beginners or people that don't want to do the whole Attack/Defend strategy. While in Neutral mode, you can attack and defend (auto-blocking). The special ability of this mode is to be able to "block" attacks while doing attack moves (See the arena fight in Episode II.) (To make this look good, we'll probably have to make bolts that are "blocked" autotrack to blade. This shouldn't be noticeable at the current bolt speeds.) This mode is best for fighting in a gun battle.

Defense:

You CAN'T attack in this mode. Instead, you use Primary to do Active Blocking. Active Blocking is where you boost your combat stats (block, deflection, parry, etc rating) by clicking Primary just as an attack is coming it. The closer the click is to the impact time, the more your stats are improved. This abilty will obviously have a recharge time to prevent spamming.

Attack:

In this mode, the autoblock rate will be little to none. However, your attack skills are boosted in exchange (damage, defense break, saber lock, etc.). There will probably be some other advantages (say, make "finisher" moves only work in this mode.)

These changes are set up to make saber more rythmic (based on changing aggression postiers than a rock-paper-scissor or red beats all system.) Neutral lets "lite" players still enjoy the game while Attack/Defense provide deep gameplay for the experts.

Other changes will probably involve slower saber swings, a total redo of the unrealistic, unbalances "specials", Saber Clashes (replaces Saber Locks with a more tactical system based on reflex and smart thinking instead of button mashing), and "Finishers" (basically "cool ways to kill your defeated foes")

Note that this is all long-term planning that won't all be done tomorrow. The project will gradually go in that direction as things progress.

Razor Ace

Alesh
01-07-2003, 06:32 PM
I meant VR (virtual reality).

And that system looks really good, i just hope you can change defense/neutral/attack withowt having to cicle (in all 5 stances mod i end up taking less saber offence just to be able to switch faster :P).

Just a question, will the clic in defense mode be from server's view or from client's view? since it can be a little hard to clic on the right moment with lag.

razorace
01-07-2003, 07:15 PM
Oh, ok. :)

Toggling will probably be handled by 2 to three buttons. Personally, I think an Attack/Defense button and a Neutral toggle would be the best system.

As for the Active Blocking, it has to be server side. Otherwise it would be WAY too easy to cheat and would add more lag to the game. With it server side, lag shouldn't be anymore of a problem for Active Blocking as it is for aimming.

razorace
01-08-2003, 01:22 PM
Since people seem interested in the design process, I'll remind everyone that most of the MotF Team hangs out in #motf on the IRC server gamesnet.net (www.gamesnet.net). We do our mod communication and design work there.

Hekx
01-12-2003, 08:32 AM
Here's some things I noticed a while ago when playing the mod..

Changing the alt-fire on the Blaster was a very good idea. I kept gettings bots spam alt-fire at close range making it quite impossible to block with a saber. Alt-fire was too powerful and I've never seen any blasters in the SW movies fire that fast (Chewie does fire a blaster quite fast in ANH, but it didn't have the punch and speed of the current games alt-fire) On most occassions the alt-fire on the blaster was able to push DFAs backwards due to the power of the blasts.

The only thing I dislike in the 1st release is gunners being able to dodge. The dodge animation seems more Jedi-like than the whole SW universe being able to manipulate the Force and dodge Matrix-style. I think the idea of adding a class-based system like ProMod; in which you can give points to selected abilites. Dodge could be apart of Level 3 jump? Who knows, but it would be a lot easier if Jedi could only dodge. Having bots with rocket launchers dodge every DFA that comes their way can be tedious and unfair.

This doesn't mean having dodge as a force power, maybe having it like roll and kick. Gunners can't roll or kick while holding weapons; but saberists / Jedi can. Luke does quite a fair bit of ducking and dodging in ROTJ apon Jabba's Sail Barge, while most of the 'bad-guys' stand around getting killed, not dodging.

Gunners / Mercs / Bountys / Whatever they call themselves ;)
should have a targetting system since the Jedi get dodge. Maybe a meter which can control the power of the attack. I think a good example of this is Jango Fett. In EPII, we see him eliminate Colman Trebor with his Westar blaster. Could he have increased the power of the blasts? It didn't seen him changed the range or speed of the blasts, so maybe a power meter would be benificial for both Jedi and Mercs.

On a good note, the dodge is very useful and a nice addition to the game. It does make lightsabre dueling more challenging and keeps you alive a lot longer against gunners. ;)
If you miss a DFA, other special, or a strike with your saber; the dodge is usually there as backup. I don't see any problems with the dodge system so far.

One more thing. This maybe a bug; but it happened while testing the mod out...
Is this (http://www.hekx.cjb.net/stuff/MOTF.jpg) meant to happen?
(No damage and 100% accuracy ;))

razorace
01-12-2003, 04:17 PM
Well, Dodge is really a gameplay compromise. Players without dodge die instantly. While that would be more realistic, it simply wouldn't be very fun to play, especially for nonjedi characters. We will eventually have hitzone specific damage and Dodge levels based on your stats (where Jedi get more Dodge Points than nonjedi characters). Both should help the problem to a degree but every player will still have at least some level of Dodge.

As for your "bug", that isn't actually a bug. I had to disable idle saber to get Dodge to work good. Previously, it was possible to screw your opponent up by poking him with the saber, triggering his dodge (for 1 point of damage!) and then striking him down mid swing. I know it's not very realistic, but it wasn't realistic the old way ether. An added bonus of this change is that you can stand all posey-like when dueling. (without the sabers constantly blocking each other when you get remotely close)

razorace
01-14-2003, 04:14 AM
Ok all. I'm back from break. I've got a new hitzone set up based on Herr's idea/notes. However, I need betatesters to fill in the gabs in my "surface to hitzone" code. I need people to test the mod by firing weapons at a still kyle model player (since all the ghoul 2 stuff is based off him) and matching the hitzones to the reported surface #. It's really simple and easy to do. :) Please contact me if you're willing to help.

Razor Ace

razorace
01-14-2003, 04:26 AM
My review of that mod:

It's good. The dodging system was thoughtful. At first, I was imagining that this mod would have some slow mo stuff going on like Style over Substance. I figured every dodge would just slow the game down.
1. Unfortunately, timescale alterations simply don't work very well in the JK2/Q3 engine. It causes numberous lag and error problems.

2. Slo-mo is cool as a gimmack but the game has to be playable. No one wants to be constantly going into slo-mo, especially when you can't even see the dodgee in a FFA fight!

It would be possible to do a game with playable slo-mo (in fact, I have basic idea for one) but we'd have to built an engine from the bottom up with good timescalability and a totally different design mindset.


It was pretty cool. I was playing bots though, so to say that I've seen everything there is to see about MotF is a falsehood. My saber battles were really long, mainly because our dodge meters lasted pretty long. Of course, I'm so saturated by the promod system of fighting, I wasn't very good in this one. It's an interesting mod, however my attention span is pretty much hooked. However, I commend it for its freshness.
Yeah, I know about the Dodge Meter and Saber Combat issue. It will go away once I've implimented the Fatigue system.


Most mods kind of add glitz and glamor. Like the old mods of JK, where everything was turned into a mega tank gun (interesting how they never modded the lightsaber. I swear, more "star wars" fans are buying the "star wars games" but go in wanting nothing to do with dramatic gun versus saber combat. They want their jedi armed with tank guns). MotF didn't add a jetpack, or a grappling hook, it just did something you don't normally see. It wasn't overbearing, just some plain and thought out changes.

Of course, I assume MotF is still a work in progress, it would be intersting to see where the mod goes from here.

Hekx
01-16-2003, 09:31 AM
What news of Gondor 2nd Release?

I hope in the final stages, some emotes and a custom hilt selection is added. The RGB is good, but seems to stray too far away from the movie's saber colours; maybe just adding some extra saber colours would be good; Light Blue etc.

razorace
01-16-2003, 03:46 PM
Well, the big news is that I got the new surface-based Ghoul2 hit detection mostly working. You actually have to hit the surface of the model to score a hit. This translates to better visual Dodging and reasonable hitzone based features like hitzone specific damage. Look for it in Release 2.

Hekx
01-16-2003, 10:08 PM
Ah, sounds good. I can't wait for the next release. :)
Hopefully that will save me from rabid ugnaughts with stun battons and the ability to avoid every single red strike I throw at them. :D

Are you going to add any extra fancy additions to the mod; like custom hilt selection, emotes, RGB saber colour?
I believe you said about putting that in the final version, but what's your take about adding them to the mod?

I personally like the custom hilt selection, but the RGB makes it less SW-like due to having 5 jedi with 5 different shades of blue. Maybe just adding some extra colours to the originals would be nice; white, grey etc.

Emotes are nice, but it seems they can be abused (just like 80% of the game so far..) You can cut-out of move animations; avoid being hit (blasted sit and crossarms emotes..) so maybe emotes are a bad idea. But they do add a nice touch. Plus there's loads of unused animations in the animation.cfg file; so making some of those into emotes would be cool.

razorace
01-16-2003, 10:41 PM
Our standing is that gameplay comes first. Everything else comes if/then we feel like it (not often). If we didn't, we'd have to spend all our time on grimacky stuff instead of the important stuff.

razorace
01-19-2003, 03:21 PM
Ok, the new MotF Forums (http://66.227.96.58/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=449) are up. Please post all MotF related stuff there. I'll have this thread transferred there when I can find a mod for the Valley.

razorace
01-21-2003, 06:37 PM
Ok, this has been transfered. I'm going to close the thread to encourage use the of the new forum. Me and several other MotF team members will be watching the forum for messages and such. We'll try to reply as much as possible. :)