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C'jais
10-20-2002, 12:04 PM
The article below reveals some interesting things about people's general opinion on rape and murder in the states, not to mention the laws POV too.

Personally, I think murder is far worse than rape - but then again, I've never been raped OR murdered (though I had a friend who died, and a friend's friend who got shot).

Your mature opinions please.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,799312,00.html

Jah Warrior
10-20-2002, 12:29 PM
murder:- life in prison, no parole, no release ever.
rape:- life in prison, no parole, no release ever.

nuff said

Darklighter
10-20-2002, 12:31 PM
I think rape is worse than murder...I know that at first it would not seem like it, but consider the effect that rape has on the psychy of a person: with murder, the life is lost forever, and the people who deal with the pain are the victim's loved ones and close relations. Rape is very different. The victim is condemned to live with the experience for the rest of their lives. I know they are alive, but they will certainly not be well: they most likely will never be the same person again.

C'jais
10-20-2002, 12:56 PM
Yes, you're both right IMO.

Another thing worth noticing:

In computer games, designers can get away with showing mutilation, cold-blooded murder and torture.... but sex and rape? NO F'KIN WAY! Why?

Is it such that a 13 year old kid can "grip" a helpless ugnaught, but it's taboo to show Kyle and Jan do their thing?

Recently though, I've seen games with sex and love as a theme (Baldurs gate 2 and the Sims, fx) and I hope that this trend continues as such.

Madjai
10-20-2002, 01:22 PM
yea id consider rape worse than murder for the reasons stated by Darklighter, and i also agree that both should have the highest punishment (in canada that is, no capital punishment here) of life in prison, no parole no release.

Tyrion
10-20-2002, 01:36 PM
Murder is far worse than rape.

Sure you will feel horrible after a rape,but you can always kill yourself if that happens,which means it is as bad as murder.

I value the human life over the human phyche.

ckcsaber
10-20-2002, 01:43 PM
I'm going with Tyrion. With murder the victim is dead. With rape the victim can go on with their life

Luc Solar
10-20-2002, 02:05 PM
There are a few other things to consider as well.

* What if he/she "didn't do it"?

Life in prison, no parole, no release ever? Sounds kinda cruel. Sounds like no-one should be condemned unless his guilt is 100% certain.

When someone gets raped, the story is usually this:

In court:

She: He raped me!
He: No I didn't.
She: Did too!
He: Umm...did not.
She: Did too!
He: Okay, we had sex, but it was all her idea! She got me drunk and took me to her place. She wanted it!
She: Did not!
He: Did too!

Judge: I hereby condemn you to life in prison, no parole, no release ever you filthy rapist you!

Judge: Oh and btw. --> one day in prison costs the tax payers 500 $. That makes the total cost of this sentence 11.862.500 $ (500 x 365 x 65 years).

:rolleyes:


...let the debate continue... :D


Ps. Oh yeah...my opinion: murder is worse.

Pps. some guy here got a few years knocked off his sentence 'cause the rape lasted for such a short time (a.k.a "quicky-rape").
Who said premature ejaculation is a bad thing?? LoL! :rolleyes:

Breton
10-20-2002, 02:18 PM
Murder is far worse than rape. Sure, rape can change the victims life, but it is better to have a changed life than not having a life at all. Also, murder will really be a pain to all the relatives and friends of the murdered. This may be the worst thing about murder, all the people who have lost a loved one.

C'jais
10-20-2002, 02:37 PM
Yeah, when someone is raped, at least they a *chance* to resume their normal lives, and the friends of the victim aren't as affected.

With murder, the victim is lost forever - no chance of bringing him/her back to life.

...And murder victims can't defend themselves in court, while rape victims can severely affect the judge's opinions.

Guardian Omega
10-20-2002, 02:40 PM
Murder, a life is worth more than the human mind to me. With rape, you got supporters. With murder, you got crying family members.......Rape can be recovered from, while murder cannot.....

Plus on the LUE board in gamefaqs, people in my opinion REALLY act as rape is the devil's crime! (They justified torture to the rapist anyway.........)Not that he probably deserved it mind you, but it kinda scares me that the fact they immediately justified it.....

StormHammer
10-20-2002, 08:10 PM
From my POV, life is the most precious gift above all other things. What are we without life? Nothing. So I'd have to say the taking of life is the most heinous crime.

As others have stated, a person (male or female) can often eventually recover from a rape, and continue with their life, and still contribute to society, and perhaps achieve something that may not have been achieved. It's still a terrible crime, and it's right that it should carry a weighty punishment.

If someone's life is taken prematurely, that individual's light in the world is forever snuffed out.

It's a shame that in some countries, a life sentence doesn't actually mean life, but only 25-30 years behind bars.

I also agree that the evidence against the accused should be compelling...but at least if someone serves a prison sentence and are later found innocent due to new evidence, that person can be released.

Darklighter
10-20-2002, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer
It's a shame that in some countries, a life sentence doesn't actually mean life, but only 25-30 years behind bars.


That is one of the many reservations I have of political punishment in my country. I feel that the sentance 'life' should be literal, for both rape and murder. Though one may be considered worse than the other, they should both result in the same punishment for the accused.

JandoFett1842
10-20-2002, 08:29 PM
That artcl was pubished in England right?

Murder is in my opinons worse than rape, Murder takes the life of human, which can never be returend

Rape is also really bad, but it doesnt take away the life of soemoee, ive known 3 girls who have been raped, but they will cray that baggage the rest of there life, that they were sexualy harssed by someone, and unwanted and will always feal unluved, but rape is still not as bad as murder

Clem
10-20-2002, 08:40 PM
Whats the point of living if your so mentally scarred u can no longer enjoy it?

Darklighter
10-20-2002, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Darth Clem
Whats the point of living if your so mentally scarred u can no longer enjoy it?

My point exactly. Rape is worse, I would not be surprised if a lot of rape victims commited suicide. The thought of people so mentally effected and traumatised by it that they are never the same person again, it's just horrible:(

Clem
10-20-2002, 08:45 PM
some murders are worse

in a way

Someone who is physically and mentally tortured be4 theyre slowly and painfully killed ... for example is worse

whereas being shot in the head from behind is not as bad as rape

its gotta be viewed case by case

as should punishment

Tyrion
10-20-2002, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Darth Clem
Whats the point of living if your so mentally scarred u can no longer enjoy it?

Well, then wouldnt you kill yourself? So doesnt that mean it'll end up as bad as murder,except with the choice of living or not?

Besides, you always can recover from rape, as far as I know you cant recover from death...

Darklighter
10-20-2002, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion
Besides, you always can recover from rape, as far as I know you cant recover from death...

You mean to say that you personally know that everyone can recover from rape? That is just so generalised. IMO, there are no degrees of murder or rape as far as morality is concerned. What's done is done. And ppl evidently accused of murder or rape should be locked away, not for 25-30 years, but for life.

Tyrion
10-20-2002, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by Darklighter


You mean to say that you personally know that everyone can recover from rape? That is just so generalised. IMO, there are no degrees of murder or rape as far as morality is concerned. What's done is done. And ppl evidently accused of murder or rape should be locked away, not for 25-30 years, but for life.

Yes people can recover.

Not big or back to normal, but they cant recover.

You cant recover,nor live even if ya are killed.

Jed
10-20-2002, 10:07 PM
Darky, I'm with you all the way, both should be condemnable by life in prison.

I mean, let's say a man shoots someone in cold blood. He's a murderer. He's taken away the life of someone, and he should have his taken away too. Personally, I think that they should either rot in a cold, dark (no light what-so-ever) cell and die, nothing being provided to them. Or bring out the old Hammurabi Code, eye for an eye, bullet in the head for a bullet in the head.

Now let's say a woman walks down a street and gets raped. Regardless of whether he kills her after he's done, he's also become a murderer. He's taken away some life from someone, the life she would've led if she hadn't been raped. So he deserves the same punishment. Whack his nuts off while he's alive and stick a hot rod up his ass. Then let him rot and die.

Personally, I know many do not agree with me, but for some crimes, capital punishment is alright. Capital punishment is legal for 1st Degree Murders in most parts of the US, and it should be with rape and other crimes like it.

And parole for these sickos isn't right either. Parole, in general, isn't right at all for those kinds of crimes. For a robbery, sure, give him parole, go ahead, but for rape or murder? Hell no.

Tyrion
10-20-2002, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Jedi220
Darky, I'm with you all the way, both should be condemnable by life in prison.

I mean, let's say a man shoots someone in cold blood. He's a murderer. He's taken away the life of someone, and he should have his taken away too. Personally, I think that they should either rot in a cold, dark (no light what-so-ever) cell and die, nothing being provided to them. Or bring out the old Hammurabi Code, eye for an eye, bullet in the head for a bullet in the head.

Now let's say a woman walks down a street and gets raped. Regardless of whether he kills her after he's done, he's also become a murderer. He's taken away some life from someone, the life she would've led if she hadn't been raped. So he deserves the same punishment. Whack his nuts off while he's alive and stick a hot rod up his ass. Then let him rot and die.

Personally, I know many do not agree with me, but for some crimes, capital punishment is alright. Capital punishment is legal for 1st Degree Murders in most parts of the US, and it should be with rape and other crimes like it.

And parole for these sickos isn't right either. Parole, in general, isn't right at all for those kinds of crimes. For a robbery, sure, give him parole, go ahead, but for rape or murder? Hell no.

this is what I think should happen.

Murder- get's beat up every week by wreastlers
Raper- Give him majuwana laced with acid every week.

Not too harsh...

Jed
10-20-2002, 10:16 PM
I've been known to be a little harsh.

But I'm glad ppl agree with me.

obi
10-20-2002, 10:27 PM
To me, Crime or hate is all the same. What makes Rape worse then Murder, or murder worse then rape? What makes An armed robbery better then an unarmed one? etc.

If people would stop being jackasses, we would not even be having this dicussion right now. Unfortunatly, The stubberness of manking will not be gone any time soon. Though I see us maybe one day reaching this goal, not everyone does. They let Greed and lust blind them.

Jed
10-20-2002, 10:35 PM
I know what you mean obi, but does it make sense to sentence someone to life in prison cuz they shoplifted?

But with the crime and hate being the same, I agree with you there.

obi
10-20-2002, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Jedi220
I know what you mean obi, but does it make sense to sentence someone to life in prison cuz they shoplifted?

But with the crime and hate being the same, I agree with you there.

Well look at it like this. A very old woman gets a very precious heirloom stolen in the night as a theif beats her and runs. She is so upset about it, she cries for years.

A young teenaged female(or male) gets raped. He/she is so upset about it, he/she cries for years.

Surely, both of them feel violated. What makes one case more special then the other? Both feel bad, and turning your attention on one and ignoring the other is not going to help the other. But if you divide your attention between the two, no one is left out, and both of them get help.

Darklighter
10-20-2002, 10:49 PM
It's like I was saying before, that there are no degrees of criminal offences...they all effect people in different ways, but you can't question the difference in morality between them.

Goten583
10-20-2002, 10:59 PM
Seems like we have to determine the difference in morality between them. Thats why their are different degrees of murder, not everyone involved in a murder should be penalized to the fullest extent of which the actual killers are given.

Jed
10-20-2002, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13


Well look at it like this. A very old woman gets a very precious heirloom stolen in the night as a theif beats her and runs. She is so upset about it, she cries for years.

A young teenaged female(or male) gets raped. He/she is so upset about it, he/she cries for years.

Surely, both of them feel violated. What makes one case more special then the other? Both feel bad, and turning your attention on one and ignoring the other is not going to help the other. But if you divide your attention between the two, no one is left out, and both of them get help.

Ok, I understand what ur gettin at now. I sorta thought that the rape victim deserved more attention because the offender knew the severity of what he was doing, where as the theif did not, but I guess that they both would deserve a hot rod up the ass.

Luc Solar
10-21-2002, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by StormHammer
It's a shame that in some countries, a life sentence doesn't actually mean life, but only 25-30 years behind bars.
I also agree that the evidence against the accused should be compelling...

* In my country "Life sentence" means 12 years in prison. :confused:

* if people start waving around penalties like "life in prison", they'd better be damn sure that the accused did it.

It's better to let 9 quilty men walk free than lock one innocent man behind bars. ...so sayeth...some wise dude who's name I can't recall at the moment. :D

* you have to consider what is reasonable. There are differences between rapes and even murders. A basic date-rape is far from the worst crimes imaginable.

* if a kid (f.ex 12-17yrs old) screws up while drunk & high, does someone really think he should be locked away for life?
(And I quote myself: Judge: I hereby condemn you to life in prison! Oh and btw. --> one day in prison costs the tax payers 500 $. That makes the total cost of this sentence 11.862.500 $ (500 x 365 x 65 years).

* Life is tough. Almost everyone will have to deal with their parents dying, their husband or wife dying. A lot of people get injured & have to live in a wheelchair, get cancer, get robbed, get beaten up, get raped.
In short: sh!t happens, sometimes life's a bitch...deal with it and get on with your life.

Being raped is not cool. Men can get raped too, though.
So would you guys think it was better if you got murdered than were left alive after getting raped?! And getting buttraped is IMHO wwaaayyyy worse than a regular rape. The humiliation and all... but I'd have absolutely no trouble choosing.

* Why a punishment? Three reasons:

1) Revenge (dirty bastard raped me! Rot in hell!!)
2) General prevention (if people realize that they'll get life in jail if they rape someone, they won't do it. They're afraid of the punishment and don't think raping is worth the risk)
3) Deterrence (he's locked up, can't harm anyone anymore.)


1) --> The American Way, huh? :D Won't get anyone un-raped or un-murdered, but aaaaaahhhhhhh....sweet revenge! Die scumbag DIEDIEDIE!! MWAHAHAHAHAA!

2) ---> A more civilized way to look at things. But if the punishment is not scary enough, it won't work. Life in jail is overkill. 10-20 years is surely enough for just about any crime. (Not murder)

3) ---> Makes sense, but can't really be used unless someone is clearly a person who'd go on raping everyone in sight every time he got out.

* what happens to people who go to prison? Prison is often called The University of Villainy. They get out; learned some new skills and got a lot of new "friends", no money, no job, a nice criminal record to keep you from getting one....you do the math.


Ummm... *blackout* ...

Datheus
10-21-2002, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
There are a few other things to consider as well.

* What if he/she "didn't do it"?

Life in prison, no parole, no release ever? Sounds kinda cruel. Sounds like no-one should be condemned unless his guilt is 100% certain.

When someone gets raped, the story is usually this:

In court:

She: He raped me!
He: No I didn't.
She: Did too!
He: Umm...did not.
She: Did too!
He: Okay, we had sex, but it was all her idea! She got me drunk and took me to her place. She wanted it!
She: Did not!
He: Did too!

Judge: I hereby condemn you to life in prison, no parole, no release ever you filthy rapist you!

Judge: Oh and btw. --> one day in prison costs the tax payers 500 $. That makes the total cost of this sentence 11.862.500 $ (500 x 365 x 65 years).


I didn't actually get past this post, but if there was anyone who contested his little make believe convo...

It's true, by law

There are a few states, I believe Cali is one of them, where if a man has sex with a woman while the woman is drunk, rape charges can be pressed against the man It doesn't matter if the man was drunk also. Rape charges can be pressed over soberity, and they have been.

And I have heard that the cost of one prisoner is ridicously high. Maybe they shouldn't have cable TV and internet access
-------------

Now, I do think murder is worse than rape. Argue all you want... "Ohhh, they have to live with those horrible thoughts for the rest of their life when they're raped!" The fact of the matter is, you can choose whether or not you want to let go. Now, I'm not saying we should so no pity for these people that are raped, it's a horrible thing, but when you break it down, it's their own choice whether to move on or dwell on the past. Mind over matter here, people. When you're murdered, there's not much you can do to go on with your life, seeing it's over

-edit- By the way... I don't believe in the death penalty... You can never ever be 100% sure you're putting the right man to death, even if they confess. It's been proven plenty of times people confess to crimes they did not commit. Also, if justice slips up, an innocent man goes to death. Granted, it's years before someone on death row is ever actually executed, but if they sit in prison for the rest of their life, at least at SOME point, they may be able to prove that they did not do it. Besides, prison life isn't all that bad now-a-days. Bums commit crimes to get sent to prison because it's better than the street life. And for those of you that argue that it's too expensive to keep a prisoner in jail for his life... an execution isn't all that cheap either. And if you still have a problem with cost, go urge your Senator to make a motion in Congress to take away some of the privliges that criminals have in jail.

And also, everything I've said, is based solely on US situations, I don't know ANYTHING about foreign law or situations

Luc Solar
10-21-2002, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by Datheus
"Ohhh, they have to live with those horrible thoughts for the rest of their life when they're raped!" The fact of the matter is, you can choose whether or not you want to let go.

Well, that was a bit harsh ;)

I do agree, though. You can wallow in self pity or anything you want for the rest of your life...if you choose to do so.

And there are always professional people, shrinks, to help you out if you think you can't deal with what happened.

Btw - it's kinda funny; where I come from people go see a therapist when they start seeing pink elephants 24/7.
In the US people rush to their (note: "THEIR", not "A") therapist the second something horrible happens. Like "Oh no! It started raining! I can't take it! I get so depressed when it rains. Can't...handle it...need...help....must...call...therapist..."


Sorry, but....LOL....Americans... :D :rolleyes:

/me gets ready for the :flamethro

Ps. don't you find it weird that the US still keeps on executing people while the rest of the civilized word (except for some underdeveloped countries and China) thinks it's a horrible violation of the most basic human right? :rolleyes:

:fire11: :p :blaze6:

C'jais
10-21-2002, 10:38 AM
Wow - many posts since last...

I won't reinforce my opinion on rape vs murder any more, since the topic have been dealt with, but the punishment has garnered a lot attention.

A lot of you claim to be Christian, and so does America itself last time I checked. Now, cutting someone's balls off and sticking a hot rod up their arse shows more about you, than it does about the crime commited. Chances are, when such violent thoughts twirl in your head, you'll one day commit the very same you so furiously hate. Let's be honest: I bet you at least once have thought of doing harm or killing another person - only you've been able to restrain yourself (or not).

Death penalty does nothing. If the perpetrator can at least repent and one day learn that what he/she did was bad, it's one life saved. I believe that the ability to live and repent your "sins" is far better than an immediate desire for sweet revenge. Then, your desire for revenge has forever damned the person if he is later found guilty, and you will never be able to talk things through with him, if that may have helped.

*points to bible* j/k.... someone kick me off my high horse now, please...

FatalStrike
10-21-2002, 10:59 AM
To enter this odd topic.

IMHO crimes should take in the mind set of both victim and accused. lets start with Murder/Manslaughter

1- Man comes home finds wife in bed with another man, he goes nuts and shoots him.

2- Man finds out that some guy is sleeping with his wife and follows him home and shoots him to death

3- Man is sleeping with another mans wife and shoots the husband so that he can be with the women.

4- Man is sleeping with Wife when husband walks in, the husband tries to kill him and the man shoots him in defence of his own life.

These four scenerios all result in the death of someone who obviously does not deserve to die. However I think punishing all these crimes the same way is not justified.

In scenerio 1 you have a husband that is enraged by the immoral actions of his wife and another man, it is easily argued that this is an extreme situation, without which the man would not have commited the crime. There was no Pre-planning, thus this would be manslaughter. (this is of course if you have a good lawyer)

Scenerio 2 and 3 you have premeditation and the accused has decided on killing as the best course of action. This shows the accused to be a very dangerous person to have roaming the streets. Life no parole.

Scenerio 3 you have a immoral snake killing someon in sefl defense. He shouldn't have been there and it was his own actions that lead to the bad situation and death. Life with parole.

These are just four examples on a small scope and yet you see how things can be very different. Thus the idea of saying should rape and murder all be life with no parole is insane. Everything should be looked upon in a case by case situation.

Other things to keep in mind for Rape. There are these kinds

Statutory Rape
Violent Rape
Pedophilia
Date Rape

and more.... If you ask me there are many kinds of rape that are straight BS and the supposed victim should be thrown in prison (those chicks that tell you their 20, and then the cops tell you that they were 15) You think that should be life in prison? I think not.

BCanr2d2
10-21-2002, 12:24 PM
Fatalstrike,

Technically, and in a Utopian way, the law isn't really meant to distiguish between alot of different things. A man kills, therefore he should be punished - according to law. Then they decided to allow for people to defend themselves, and so on and so forth, which has lead to all the technicalities people can get off crimes for.

Secondly, laws aren't written for a specific sex, man is interchangable with woman. Do we ever hear of the cases where a woman forces herself onto a man? Still rape, but how often do people actually believe it?

Just like sexism/sexist, so many people have that word distorted, that it is reverse sexism when it discriminates a man - it is still sexist when it discriminates one sex over the other.

Murder is murder, rape is rape - both immoral, both illegal, both punishable. As to what extent, I haven't the brainpower to come up with an answer at 1 AM in the morning that is what I really think of it......

Edit: Not all was aimed at you fatal, just the first paragraph....

FatalStrike
10-21-2002, 12:37 PM
I used "man" as an example, I wasn't saying that laws applied to man and man only.

BCanr2d2
10-21-2002, 12:52 PM
How come physical injury is being considered different to mental injury?

Some of you assume people can recover from rape, where it will leave mental scars, for the rest of their life is the usual case, no matter what kind of therapy they have..

Boba Fife
10-21-2002, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Darth Clem
Whats the point of living if your so mentally scarred u can no longer enjoy it?

Exactly. Rape or murder: one is not less abhorant or inexcusable than the other. Ever. Mitigating circumstances make one murder less heinous than another. Certain events make one rape more violent, but no less severely damaging than another. Both are reprehensible crimes against humanity.

Murder is sometimes committed under the guise of passion or rage. Toss in a few drinks and a conveniently-located weapon and, well, you get the idea. In murder, there is a victim and a perpetrator.

In rape, there is a victim, but sometimes the "black and white" image is somewhat skewed and out of focus. Sometimes the rape is only reported due to the vindictive nature of the victim. I'm not sure which is worse when a woman wrongly accuses a man of rape because she wishes harm upon him or when a rape is actually committed. I digress. How many men have been sent to prison because she felt scorned and wished to seek vengeance?

A murder is pretty 'cut n' dry' though. Take this sniper in the Virginia, Marlyand are for instance. What should we do with him/them? Should we exact the same punishment upon him that we'd gladly give to the man who, in a drunken state, had sex with an equally intoxicated young woman who, the next morning regreted it? Or, conversely, should we give the same sentence to a man who came home, saw his wife having sex with his best friend, grabbed the gun from the drawer next to their underwear and blew them both away as we'd give to the man who had been caught and identified by seven brutally-beaten women as the serial rapist? Mitigating circumstances.

I cannot imagine the complete mental anguish that a woman, or man for that matter, endures after being sexually-violated. It's easy for us to say, "they can go on with their lives". Totally and utterly wrong. Their trust is never repaired. Their paranoia is forever solidified. Every facet of their life is completely affected. Forever. "Just get over it!" doesn't apply here.

One crime is no less of a toll on humanity than the other, but in my opinion, the punishment should remain the same: life, no parole, no cookies. :D

FatalStrike
10-21-2002, 03:28 PM
I think that anything is cut n' dry. If you got shot while sleeping with someones wife, I figure you had it coming. I give the guy a couple years and some parole. I have no pitty for a home wrecking moron.

A violent cold blooded killer and a violent rapist both get life and no parole in my book.

Anyone who lies to get someone convicted of rape or murder and is caught should get life in prison. I am saying if it is a plot that becomes exposed, then that person should get what they tried to give.

I think that some killing should get less time in jail then others. If a guy shoots a guy that shot his wife, I would NEVER find him guilty if I was on the jury. That's just me. If you got it coming, well.....sucks to be you.

Datheus
10-21-2002, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by BCanr2d2
How come physical injury is being considered different to mental injury?

Some of you assume people can recover from rape, where it will leave mental scars, for the rest of their life is the usual case, no matter what kind of therapy they have..

Bah

The human mind is capable of things that even itself, the human mind, cannot even begin to fathom. If they someone cannot move on from a traumatic expeirence, then they truely do not want to. It's their choice... The power and ability is there... You simply have to choose to use it

Jed
10-21-2002, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by cjais
Wow - many posts since last...

I won't reinforce my opinion on rape vs murder any more, since the topic have been dealt with, but the punishment has garnered a lot attention.

A lot of you claim to be Christian, and so does America itself last time I checked. Now, cutting someone's balls off and sticking a hot rod up their arse shows more about you, than it does about the crime commited. Chances are, when such violent thoughts twirl in your head, you'll one day commit the very same you so furiously hate. Let's be honest: I bet you at least once have thought of doing harm or killing another person - only you've been able to restrain yourself (or not).

Death penalty does nothing. If the perpetrator can at least repent and one day learn that what he/she did was bad, it's one life saved. I believe that the ability to live and repent your "sins" is far better than an immediate desire for sweet revenge. Then, your desire for revenge has forever damned the person if he is later found guilty, and you will never be able to talk things through with him, if that may have helped.

*points to bible* j/k.... someone kick me off my high horse now, please...

*Does a flying kick and slightly hits cjais, but falls on ground, breaking many bones and causing much pain to himself*

Damn, that's one high horse....

But enough puns.

Do you think I'm postin from juvinile detention? Well, I'm not. And to my mistake, I forgot to add a :D or a :p beside my thing about the rod. I'm just kidding! Don't take me so literally, I'm not a very literal person. I'd really never take the life of someone else, or do any of that other sh!t I mentioned.

Now, FatalStrike does bring up a great arguement, that each case should be looked at on an individual basis. It usually is, but some times or more it is more generalized. And, with saying that, I reserve my opinion to say that the death penalty is right for certain crimes. A conviction of cold blooded, premeditated murder is one of them. Again, usually this would imply good hard core DNA evidence, forensics, yada yada yada. For the innocent people that have and might be killed because of this, may they forever be long, nasty scars on mankind's reputation as being a non-barbaric, civilized group.

Parole should only be given to cases where the evidence is slim, it is a light conviction, etc. Again, the individuality of each case depends on the punishment.

But one question FatalStrike: In your scenario 3, you said the person should get life with parole. I think that he should get life no parole because it was premeditation, and not self defense. Or were you talking about scenario 4.....never mind.


I implore all of you to poke holes in my arguement. I will usually change my opinions on the encounter of a good one that proves mine wrong. :D

But accusations that I am a current/future killer/criminal.... :eek: :mad:

Datheus
10-21-2002, 05:01 PM
I really hope he wasn't talking about Senerio 4 for life with parol... You can't punish someone for defending their own life. Defense and all out slaughter are also pretty easy to prove with ballistics testing

C'jais
10-21-2002, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Datheus


Bah

The human mind is capable of things that even itself, the human mind, cannot even begin to fathom. If they someone cannot move on from a traumatic expeirence, then they truely do not want to. It's their choice... The power and ability is there... You simply have to choose to use it

I agree to an extent with this, although I also happen to think that some people might not have the power to get over it. Yet, even to have the ability to recover, makes rape less punishable than murder in my book.

And taking the law into your own hands is to be utterly avoided - it will hurt yourself in the end I believe.

C'jais
10-21-2002, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Jedi220
Do you think I'm postin from juvinile detention? Well, I'm not. And to my mistake, I forgot to add a :D or a :p beside my thing about the rod. I'm just kidding! Don't take me so literally, I'm not a very literal person. I'd really never take the life of someone else, or do any of that other sh!t I mentioned.


Hey, that wasn't targeted at you solely, nor an attempt to to hurt you or anything. I know you were joking, but I just wanted to express my opinion on how I feel about the whole "taking the law into your own hands" I described earlier....

All is forgiven, though there were nothing to forgive in the first place... :p :D

Datheus
10-21-2002, 05:13 PM
Yes, the law is always best dealt by the Govt.. I have my own opinions on how they handle it, but you'll only end up in trouble if you take it on your own...


And yes cjais... I guess I didn't get specific enough... EVERYONE has the ability to let go and move on... You just may not be able to do it on your own. That's why we have spiritual leaders and therapists. Personally, I would think it more beneficially to yourself to manage it on your own, but that is a very overwhelming task.

We not only have spiritual leaders to help us have peace of mind about what will happen to us after death, but they also play a large role in how we cope with life. It could be something hands on, such as your local priest, or something more remote, like Buddhism.. solely studing the teachings of Siddhartha Gotama to help wrap your mind around your life.

Everyone can move on, some just need a little push here and there to get started :)

-edit- But I'm glad someone out there at least remotely agrees with me... I tend to be so liberal and extreme in my beliefs, it pisses people off;)

C'jais
10-21-2002, 05:26 PM
Datheus, your views are far from extreme (judged by me, o' course :D), and I'm really happy how the thread turned out.

I sort of feared the minute I thought about it, that it might become a huge flame war spanning several pages....

Keep it cool, as usual, guys :)

FatalStrike
10-21-2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Jedi220


But one question FatalStrike: In your scenario 3, you said the person should get life with parole. I think that he should get life no parole because it was premeditation, and not self defense. Or were you talking about scenario 4.....never mind.



I was talking about scenerio 4. I am sorry for the typo. I meant that he should get life (40 years before parole I think) because while he was acting in self defense, he put himself in that bad situation by doing something that he should not in any way have been doing.

TheWhiteRaider
10-21-2002, 08:44 PM
A crime is a crime. All crimes are bad. The only reason we punish differently is because some can be repaid.

Also depends on what type of murder. 1st or 2nd. I say if you plan to kill someone you shouldn't be on the street, but if you never intended to kill someone it would depend on the person. Rape is just as bad as murder. It may give the person a child(which they may not want or be ready for.), emoting damage, and other thing. Then they are point where they chose to get a abortion or not.(Which many have a moral objection to, Including me.) And all screwing up their lives. So both are just as bad either way they take a life . Only difference is one you stop breathing and one you still breathe.

Datheus
10-21-2002, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by FatalStrike


I was talking about scenerio 4. I am sorry for the typo. I meant that he should get life (40 years before parole I think) because while he was acting in self defense, he put himself in that bad situation by doing something that he should not in any way have been doing.



Maybe, but it's not even a crime to sleep with a married person. So, he may have been doing something MORALLY wrong, but he never broke the law. He defended his own life. If he's getting life for defending himself, that's like saying he should get life for sleeping with a married woman. Now think about this. If you could go to jail for breaking someone's heart... how many years would you be in for?

The husband shouldn't even flip out at the guy, he should be mad at his WIFE for doing such a thing. Self Defense should never be punished, I don't care the circumstances

TheWhiteRaider
10-21-2002, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Datheus




Maybe, but it's not even a crime to sleep with a married person. So, he may have been doing something MORALLY wrong, but he never broke the crime. He defended his own life. If he's getting life for defending himself, that's like saying he should get life for sleeping with a married woman. Now think about this. If you could go to jail for breaking someone's heart... how many years would you be in for?

The husband shouldn't even flip out at the guy, he should be mad at his WIFE for doing such a thing. Self Defense should never be punished, I don't care the circumstances

Self Defense isn't punish (In the USA that is), but murder in the 2nd degree is. Self Defence is only work if attacked. Say someone comes to kill you on the street and you kill him. If you didn't try to pick a fight with him it is Self Defence, but not if you both sort of started fighting at the same time(Bar fight when you both started the fight).

Datheus
10-21-2002, 09:07 PM
...I know what self defense is

I have no idea what you're arguing, my post was in response to one of FatalStrike's earlier posts

TheWhiteRaider
10-21-2002, 09:27 PM
I was just saying what is court's definition of Self-Defence isn't punished. I also quoted the wrong post.

Jed
10-21-2002, 09:50 PM
Cjais, sorry I took you wrong. No hard feelins.

The law is something that should be dealt with by the government only. Anyone who does otherwise is a complete and utter fool.

Now, TheWhiteRaider, you're right, the US does not charge you with murder if it is proven it was self defense. And, like Datheus, I strongly encourage that, even if (FatalStrike's Scenario 4) the man put himself in that position. The honest man who is trying to murder the cheating man always has the option of not killing him, so the situation wouldn't always suggest a murder. Now, I'm from the US, and I know all of our opinions are going to be different due to us all being in different countries. It might be easier if we got down who was from where. I know Cjais is from Finland, so the laws are different from country to country.

So, just an idea, give what country you live in the next time you post, and as always, let's keep the debate friendly and sociable ;) :D

Luc Solar
10-22-2002, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by Jedi220
Now, I'm from the US, and I know all of our opinions are going to be different due to us all being in different countries. It might be easier if we got down who was from where. I know Cjais is from Finland, so the laws are different from country to country.
So, just an idea, give what country you live in the next time you post, and as always, let's keep the debate friendly and sociable ;) :D

Ehm... no he isn't! Cjais is Danish! :D

Check out his sig: "Don't mess with Denmark, or Denmark will mess with you - Small country, Big attitude." (LoL!)

I'm from Finland!. Thats is my location...below my avatar. (That's what I thought it was for anyways...but I guess I'm not accustomed to being such a wise-ass, that I'd choose something like: "Behind you!" or "2 steps ahead of you" ;) )

Just thought I'd clear that up :)

C'jais
10-22-2002, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Jedi220
I know Cjais is from Finland, so the laws are different from country to country.

hehe, I was just going to remind him of that Luc, but it really doesn't matter that much... I mean, one scandinavian country is as good as the others no? :D

Really, sometimes I wished in Finland, where there's nothing of this "jante law" stuff going on...

But nevermind, I agree with you J220. Also, I have the same view as Datheus when it comes to the court judging "heart break crimes".... The law should stay out of that matter entirely, lest it becomes far worse.

FatalStrike
10-22-2002, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Datheus




Maybe, but it's not even a crime to sleep with a married person. So, he may have been doing something MORALLY wrong, but he never broke the law. He defended his own life. If he's getting life for defending himself, that's like saying he should get life for sleeping with a married woman. Now think about this. If you could go to jail for breaking someone's heart... how many years would you be in for?

The husband shouldn't even flip out at the guy, he should be mad at his WIFE for doing such a thing. Self Defense should never be punished, I don't care the circumstances


The law takes into account who provoked the incident. Going into a man's house and sleeping with his wife, means that you instigated the incedent which lead to the fatality.

If you are sleeping with someones wife the crime scene has three people to look at. The wife, the husband, and you. Now of those three who is obviously not supposed to be there? Thus that person aggrevated the situation and caused the situation to take place.

If you cause a bad situation, you can't later claim self defense. It's your fault that you were defending yourself in the first place.

FatalStrike
10-22-2002, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Luc Solar

(That's what I thought it was for anyways...but I guess I'm not accustomed to being such a wise-ass, that I'd choose something like: "Behind you!" or "2 steps ahead of you" ;) )

Just thought I'd clear that up :)

Don't make me beat fly to your little silly country and beat you down. ;)

Luc Solar
10-22-2002, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by FatalStrike


Don't make me beat fly to your little silly country and beat you down. ;)

Oooh...now-now Fatal... that little slip-up couldn't have been intentional.. :angel:


... :D