A first look at ProMod 3.0 [Archive]

Doctor Shaft

10-27-2002, 10:20 AM

You're a genius Artifex. It's amazing how simple the fix for balancing things out is. We all just accepted that in order to wield a lightsaber, we'd have to put skill points into it, lest we want to fight just with crappy blue stance all day. But we took forgranted the fact that we could also wield over 10 weapons, all of which were different designs that functioned differently from each other, especially the higher up models, with maximum proficiency. I could fire a blaster all the way across a level and accurately bombard someone with it, but I wasn't able to master certain lightsaber styles just because I wanted more force powers? Your system, as you've promised from the beginning, brings all skills and puts them into the equation.

Two things though. First, what about that new force power. I'm guessing it's not going to make it into version 3. Also, i'm assuming the jetpack, which will also come later, will also take skill points, or perhaps that will be at the maximum levels of gadgets. If so, I think that's a pretty good price to pay to have, considering that at the end it's like seven points. That's a whole lot of skill points, leaving you pretty much with one good gun skill and then a whole lotta mess.

Anyway, your system finally allows the true 'jedi wannabe' be a master of the jedi ways, and not have to worry about 'you have to use all tools sam' out doing you because he not only has your same master force configuration, but he likes to use all the guns too. Now, if he wants to rule with guns, he can't share the same mastery of the force at the same time, meaning that I can finally play my way and be a threat to his way. He can't just have both ways and choose which one is easier or more efficient.

Lastly, please give me the force power. If anything, with all this new system stuff, I'd love to try out a little new force power stuff. You da man Artifex.

ArtifeX

10-27-2002, 02:12 PM

If I don't add any more functionality, then b3 is about 95% done. I have a small server side bug left to fix, and support for saving your weapon configurations in the same manner you save your force configurations. No, i'm not going to add a separate list box for force configurations. I'm going to just use the one that's currently there. You'll end up with two files for each "configuration": one for the force powers, and one for the weapons, but with the same name and two different file extentions. Both files will load when you load from the force config list box.

Glad you guys are pleased.

I'm probably not going to put the new force power in before I release 3.0 (no more betas!). I'm going to release a 3.1 version very shortly after 3.0 that will include the new force power and the new jetpack. After that, I'm going to work on getting some Saga support, and putting some cool Saga maps together.

I consider the core game now pretty much fixed. I don't see anything left over from 1.04 that's still broken. --aside: man, that pushable blaster bolt thing was so stupid...--- Anything that I'll be adding from this point on will be to solely add to the gameplay value. Twin sabers and model scaling will factor in at some point, but not before the jetpack and new force power.

The athenagt.net tournament going on in Italy right now has been beta testing for me a bit (if you can call 5,000 people a beta test), and from the feedback, they're having a ball with the current build. ZWZ, Laz, or Fatal, feel free to answer anyone's questions about the gameplay that you've seen so far.

zerowingzero

10-27-2002, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by Break_dF
Is kicking double jump or single?...in promod of course

Kicking and sidekicking are single tap, while wall kicking is double-tap.

The difference in promod beta 3 is that you can backflip off the wall as long as you are still going up, which leads to spending the first 5 min doing nothing but wall jumping :P

Doctor Shaft

10-27-2002, 04:51 PM

Well now I can no longer contain myself. I know I told you to take your time, but when do you think beta 3 will be released. At this point, no one is playing beta 2 or 1 or whatever. there's only four servers running it, all of which i can only get a good ping from on a like a friday night. I need to start playing again.

zerowingzero

10-27-2002, 04:58 PM

Belive me, you'll want to wait to put more stuff in, the more things added, the more interest will be sparked and the more servers will run it.

Toonces

10-27-2002, 05:08 PM

Yeah, I'm very intregued by this new balanceing system, but extra time will only make it that much better :D

I wish this game had more coders with a great vision like you do ArtifeX, there are far too few

zerowingzero

10-27-2002, 05:13 PM

I tryed to learn C! i really did! :(

I had to settle with beta testing and making a bot for his server which neither of us know how to use.

Anyone know how to add custom bots to a deticated server with min players set at 2?

Toonces

10-27-2002, 05:19 PM

heh, I can't code a lick either, I just don't like all that logic, besides, I've been an artist my whole life so I figured why not learn how to do art in 3d? ;)

no idea on the bot problem, I think all bots have to be client side too so you probly have to include them in the mod. I've made plenty of custom bots, but I'm not sure exactly how to do what you guys want

zerowingzero

10-27-2002, 05:23 PM

The bots are done, and they will only be on ati's server, the problem is we don't know the commands for adding custom bots to the server, only random ones. The one i made are part of the Promod "staff" and "help" people out.
heh heh heh

DeTRiTiC-iQ

10-27-2002, 05:33 PM

I thought Artifex was supposed to be trying to win the CTF Pro's over with Promod, so why go the wrong way?

All the CTF Pro's have spent months building up a mastery in ALL the weapons, now in order for use to stand a chance in a CTF match we have to forfeit nearly all the weapons and powerups just so we can use the necessary force powers?

I haven't put any force points into saber (except level 1 offense to get the actual weapon) for several months, i've spent ages refining my force config. As intriguing as this mod looks, I don't see it winning over the CTFers with its current direction.

zerowingzero

10-27-2002, 05:46 PM

as of now, you can be:
a lv3 jedi with lv1 guns, (slow, primary only)
a lv2 jedi with lv2 guns,(inproved, secondary)
a lv1 jedi with lv3 guns,(regular)
and jetpack (pending) with lv4 guns (kickass)

Heh, it may seem guns get the bum deal out of this, but me vs artifex proved that either the new guns rock or he sux :P

Syfo-Dyas

10-27-2002, 06:14 PM

Why don't we just call it Version 1.05!!!:D

NOW, why am I not playing??? Oh! that's right, it hasn't been released..... :mad: C'mon! gimme, gimme, gimme! :bounc5:

Originally posted by zerowingzero
the more interest will be sparked and the more servers will run it.

You make a good point, but right now we don't need more servers running ProMod. We need MORE players on the servers that are already running ProMod.

Yeah, I want to see more servers running it, but lets give some props to the guys who have kept ProMod going on their servers even though their servers have been empty for the most part.

From the moment I started playing beta 1.0, I could tell that ArtifeX was on to something significant that the guys at Raven had missed (I have never felt that JO was finished. I think Raven had to hurry up so that JO could be released with EpisodeII ). I think ProMo---errr Version 1.05:D could be the important thing to happen for JO since the release of JO itself! And I wish JO, the JO editing community -who have put in so much work making great maps, skins, and models- and ProMod, a long and substantial life.

I also want to give a shout to the good folks and Lucasarts, and Raven for releasing the source code, so that things like ProMod can be created that will add new life and new dimensions to their games! How 'bout it guys? You help the community, the community helps you! Now how about releasing the animations or the SP source?

Looks great ArtifeX! Can't wait to take it for a spin!

Doctor Shaft

10-27-2002, 06:23 PM

In response to the being good at ALL weapons, keep in mind, while the players are good with ALL weapons, there's really no way to balance those weapons out without limiting what you can use, or making everything have a long range, explosive secondary ability.

Promod has certainly gone a different way about things, and I think it's for the better.

First, it will get rid of the common "put my points into speed and jump, ignore all saber skills, have max defense force measures, charge with guns stradegy". You can't beat that setup, it's the best way of doing things, unless you exchange the pull push thing for absorb, or better yet, add it in. You can't balance that system out. By it's very nature, if players want the best possible performance, it's max force defenses, speed, and your favorite explovsive gun of choice. People say you get good at all the weapons, but that's really saying, "I have good aim with all the weapons, I use the lightsaber as a shield mostly because that's what it's best at, but in the end we're all using the flechette at high competetive levels".

As I said before, we've all taken forgranted that you need force points in the saber ability in order to defend and attack, and yet we just didn't care that you could also pick up every other weapon in the game and use it like a madman.

In CTF, tons of people, at least the ones who most often excelled at CTF, or had half a brain, would have only one level of saber abilty. Why have more, it isn't going to do much against the other weapons and the speed and defense abilities everyone posseses. But you may also be right, CTFer's now may not like that style of play. But in my opinion, that's an indication that they aren't seeking Promod, and probably don't need it. 1.04 is just fine for that kind of action. If you like stronger sabers and more speed as well, try JK2++. I like the direction promod is going though. If you want your high speed and explosives, you have to sacrifice a few things. It was getting ridiculous that guns were so heavily favored. It's not that they did too much damage, had too much ammo. It was just that you got all of their fantastic abilities, and then you didn't need the force, at least offensively. So you just pump up your speed and defenses, and fire away. This balance system will force you to make choices. I like it.

Lathain Valtiel

10-27-2002, 06:59 PM

..I have only one thing to do now.

*Proceeds to worship ArtifeX*

Syfo-Dyas

10-27-2002, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
I thought Artifex was supposed to be trying to win the CTF Pro's over with Promod, so why go the wrong way?

As intriguing as this mod looks, I don't see it winning over the CTFers with its current direction.

My first thought is that ArtifeX isn't trying to win anyone over with ProMod. It's not his job to win people over, it's the games job. What I see ArtifeX doing is trying to correct the serious flaws in the games original design.
I haven't played verson 3.0 yet, but as of version 2.0, I was impressed with how I was actually able to use a light saber as a primary weapon, and not just be target practice for every gunner out there.
Keep in mind Detritic, you aren't the only person who has worked for months to fine tune their skills...

Secondly, it appears to me, that ProMod isn't saying there is anything wrong with mastering ALL of the weapons. What it's doing is asking you to specialize. You CAN have it all, just not all at once.
It makes sense that you don't get to play both light and dark sides of the force. And even within the two sides of the force, you have to specialize by distributing points. The philosophy behind that is pretty simple: You aren't allowed do EVERYTHING well at the same time. What do you think the game would be like if you could have max points for every force power (both light and dark)?
It seems to me that any gunner can have any gun any time. The philosophy that has guided Force powers has never applied to guns. Well, now it does.
This doesn't scrap the skills you've worked to aquire in the game thus far. It looks to me like it's asking you to develop and fine tune them to a higher degree. This way, you don't need to rely on every gun to win. Instead, you can be a formidible opponent with few guns -or even just one gun.

DeTRiTiC-iQ

10-27-2002, 08:04 PM

The flaws are only evident in the game if you play it for the sabers. The majority of saberists play sabers because they like the whole role-play feel to it, hence they are in favour of having point-allocations to as much as possible, ie to create a unique character with unique abilities.

Gunners however play in a different way, they utilize the level and the weapons to their fullest potential. This is precisely why the majority of levels, no matter how good they look aren't favoured by Gunners. Its very hard to make a map that works well for FFA since too many people focus on eyecandy. In my time i've made about 10 maps, only one of which I think was of high standard, and that was a JK1 map for MLP4.

This new weapons point-allocation system is bringing the game closer to being an rpg and further away from being an FPS. Hence the reason why you will never be able to satisfy both the gunners and the saberists.

Now don't get me wrong, I love RPGs, especially ones such as BG2, Fallout etc, I will probably buy KotOR and SWGalaxies if I can get my hands on a broadband connection. But I don't think multiplayer JK2 was ever meant to be an RPG, if it wasn it wouldn't have been based on the Quake 3 engine.

I mean just look at the first screenshot, almost nothing in Saber abilities, yet choosing weapons, all of which are essential in a CTF game (yes, even the bowcaster) means you literally are about as useless as an inflatable dartboard in CTF.

JK2 is about utilizing Saber, Force and GUNS. Kyle is a mercenary and supposedly a very good marksman. JK2 is about KYLE, so therefore the game is about the saber AND the guns.

DeTRiTiC-iQ

10-27-2002, 08:08 PM

I missed out a point, Imagine you have decided to be a gunner, now in order to survive in CTF you need level 3 in pull and push to prevent being knocked to your doom. So that's already some points you've got to find from somewhere. Now, at least one enemy will have Force Speed, so you need force speed in order to stand a chance. What i'm getting at is that if the CTF community were to play this mod, they would nearly ALWAYS choose speed, rage, pull, push and jump over any specific weapon.

However the CTF community LIKE using guns, so as a result there is no incentive to play the mod.

zerowingzero

10-27-2002, 08:17 PM

I good gunner can take out a good force user, and the crouch option is still in effect for both gunners and force users, all this means is that it will be harder to be a one-man team in ctf, and that SOME teamwork is neccisary to play effectivly.
Now that force users can't jsut grab a repeater and turn on speed+range to get the flag carrier, their job is a lot harder. If you saw a jedi using speed, would you go "oh no i can't use speed so i'm doomed" or easaly use your flecette or tripmines to kill him? all level 4 weapons are harder to block and or are more powerfull, so gunners CAN hold their own. This is not "Jedi vs merc" here people, force + guns can still exist, if not as godlike as before.

FatalStrike

10-27-2002, 08:43 PM

Gunners will whine, but too bad.

In 1.02 I could DFA and recover quickly and a simple step wouldn't help you. This is gone.

In 1.02 I could pull bunny hopping gunners to the floor with easy and kill them with a very strong saber. This is gone.

In 1.02 I could Jump at you and BS you before killing you or hurting you badly. This is gone

In 1.02 I could strike quickly with heavy without a slow down. This is gone

I could move in any driection quickly which SERIOUSLy aided in dodging weapons. This is gone

I could Drain you from Far away to ZERO force in 1 sec. Thus leaving gunners vulnerable to other forces. This is Gone.

I could grip you far more effectively. This is gone

Now some of these things caused HUGE exploits in Saber -V- Saber. However regardless of how you feel about the things I named they DID HELP SABERS -V- GUNNERS.

They are gone, and people do not want them back. However there is a large outcry for a return of sabers use in CTF matchs that have guns enabled. As it stands a saber is a shield and very little more.

This new system provides a different balance while allowing 1.04 saberist to keep there silly weakened special moves.

Gunners frankly would like nothing better then to keep this game gun > saber in all situations but in order to cater to the MAJORITY of players this must be changed.

Most of the servers are Duel NF (saber only) and FFA FF (saber only) thus one must address their concerns. Gunners may or may not like it, but the fact is all they don't like is making things fair.

The End

Flame away.

ArtifeX

10-27-2002, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by Toonces
heh, I can't code a lick either, I just don't like all that logic, besides, I've been an artist my whole life so I figured why not learn how to do art in 3d? ;)

no idea on the bot problem, I think all bots have to be client side too so you probly have to include them in the mod. I've made plenty of custom bots, but I'm not sure exactly how to do what you guys want

Hey, don't think that because you're an artist that you're fated to not be able to code. I've got a freakin Fine Art degree! I actually heard a figure one time that 98% of all degreed artists end up doing something other than art. Guess I'm a slave to the trend, eh?

ArtifeX

10-27-2002, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
I thought Artifex was supposed to be trying to win the CTF Pro's over with Promod, so why go the wrong way?

All the CTF Pro's have spent months building up a mastery in ALL the weapons, now in order for use to stand a chance in a CTF match we have to forfeit nearly all the weapons and powerups just so we can use the necessary force powers?

I haven't put any force points into saber (except level 1 offense to get the actual weapon) for several months, i've spent ages refining my force config. As intriguing as this mod looks, I don't see it winning over the CTFers with its current direction.

What this is doing is twofold:

1. It's no longer allowing gunslinging to totally dominate the game, to the complete exclusion of the saber. Jedi Masters flying through the air wielding Rocket Launchers and toting high explosives flies in the face of the entire Star Wars universe. Learning to be a Jedi is a demanding, exclusive calling which does not allow the student to deviate from his study of the Force in order to learn the finer points of the use, maintenance, and other finer points of the E11 Blaster Rifle, or the Golan Arms Flechette Rifle, or any of the other weapons.

If you want your character to use guns, then you shouldn't expect them to have dedicated as much time to their mastery of the Force Powers. Raven's decision to allow the Jedi to use all of these weapons and the Force simultaneously was a grievous error, and one that has, in my opinion, proved to be very self-destructive.

2. It forces players to think much more about their role in the offense or defense in a CTF game. Currently, every player is an Uber Jack-of-all-Trades. With unlimited access to the weapons, and nearly unlimited acces to all the Force Powers at Jedi Master level, you barely need to pay attention to how you configure the Force Setup screen.

I would be willing to bet that nearly every current, competitive CTF player has a force setup that is almost identical to the one that everyone else uses. You said it yourself, nobody puts any points in the saber because the saber is useless in CTF. That everybody takes Level 3 Force Sight is no mystery. Mind Trick and Grip are almost totally ignored because they're so easily countered. With all those points freed up, you've got enough left to buy nearly every other power at level 3. That means, that if everyone follows this formula, that everyone is just a clone of everyone else. The only exception being choosing Light or Dark side.

IMO, everyone being the same is boring. This new system ensures that hardly any two players' configs will be the same, as every player will have to think much harder about which configuration best suits their playing style.

I don't doubt that those players at the top of the CTF ladders will resist using ProMod 3.0. Nobody at the top of their game ever wants to have the deck reshuffled. They're just going to have to realize that letting go of their winning hand in a simplistic game of War is much more preferable than missing out on an intense game of high-stakes Poker, even if they have to risk losing.

Rad Blackrose

10-27-2002, 09:40 PM

I'm sorry if this is going to look like comparing apples to oranges, but in all honesty it is not. You want to know what this reminds me of? Counter-Strike, pacth 1.4. For those who don't know about what the patch specifically did, besides screw with pistols, it screwed bunnyhopping. What happened afterwards? Most of the CS population was in a uproar. Why? Because their little "technique" that helped them win was disappearing... fast.

It does not surprise me that some of the JKII CTF community is feeling as though they are being backed into the same corner as the Counter-Strike players thru ProMod. Sure, while you need the latest version of CS to continue playing, you don't in terms of ProMod. It is just a mod, and you can go back to standard 1.04.

I've been playing since 1.02, and I will tell you flat out that I believe that CTF has to be the most boring mode in Jedi Knight II. Why? No individuality. Want to use a saber? Too bad the team of all gunners will hunt your arse down and riddle you with holes. Think Mind Trick is great? Not when everyone has force sight 3. Grip, great tool, eh? Not when someone either pushes you, absorbs, or just discharges in your face. The gunner is the god of JKII right now; ProMod is putting gunning in its rightful place.

Instead of just dropping your force points into speed, absorb, push, pull, and sight while neglecting all the saber aspects, you have to *THINK* where your points are going to go. That means *STRATEGY* and *TEAM COORDINATION!* No more of this one man army bulls*it that makes you think you can tread into an opposing team's base, grab the flag, and light up speed/absorb while your flechette is doing the talking. Now you have to think to yourself: "Am I going to get that force power or should I put more ammo in my powerful gun to support my teammate who is running for the flag."

In all honesty, I don't care if the CTF scene is left in the dust with the same ol' donkey poo. ProMod is going to be the way to go, and at last we get to ditch the Beta tags!

ArtifeX

10-27-2002, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
This new weapons point-allocation system is bringing the game closer to being an rpg and further away from being an FPS. Hence the reason why you will never be able to satisfy both the gunners and the saberists.

Now don't get me wrong, I love RPGs, especially ones such as BG2, Fallout etc, I will probably buy KotOR and SWGalaxies if I can get my hands on a broadband connection. But I don't think multiplayer JK2 was ever meant to be an RPG, if it wasn it wouldn't have been based on the Quake 3 engine.

This isn't getting closer to being an RPG. It's getting closer to a class-based, tactical Star Wars shooter. Oops, did I say that? :D

I mean just look at the first screenshot, almost nothing in Saber abilities, yet choosing weapons, all of which are essential in a CTF game (yes, even the bowcaster) means you literally are about as useless as an inflatable dartboard in CTF.

I think I can leave it to my beta testers to argue this point.

[size=1]
JK2 is about utilizing Saber, Force and GUNS. Kyle is a mercenary and supposedly a very good marksman. JK2 is about KYLE, so therefore the game is about the saber AND the guns.

You make my point perfectly. Jk2 is about using all three of these effectively. There is no player anywhere that can successfully argue that the Saber is of any use in a CTF game other than a shield. That means you're only using 2 of the 3. I personally know many former competitive players who quit specifically because the Saber sucked ass in CTF. This is an unforgivable gameplay flaw. Neither Lucasarts or Raven is concerned with fixing this problem. I've taken it upon myself to remedy this.

I hope you'll give it a try with an open mind before you cling too tightly to what is, unarguably, a badly flawed game.

ArtifeX

10-27-2002, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
I missed out a point, Imagine you have decided to be a gunner, now in order to survive in CTF you need level 3 in pull and push to prevent being knocked to your doom. So that's already some points you've got to find from somewhere. Now, at least one enemy will have Force Speed, so you need force speed in order to stand a chance. What i'm getting at is that if the CTF community were to play this mod, they would nearly ALWAYS choose speed, rage, pull, push and jump over any specific weapon.

However the CTF community LIKE using guns, so as a result there is no incentive to play the mod.

It's going to be difficult to push a gunner to his doom with a jetpack strapped to his back. :D

Lathain Valtiel

10-27-2002, 09:55 PM

QUESTION! How will you incorporate the Jetpacks without making it look absolutely hideous on most models?

ArtifeX

10-27-2002, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
I'm sorry if this is going to look like comparing apples to oranges, but in all honesty it is not. You want to know what this reminds me of? Counter-Strike, pacth 1.4. For those who don't know about what the patch specifically did, besides screw with pistols, it screwed bunnyhopping. What happened afterwards? Most of the CS population was in a uproar. Why? Because their little "technique" that helped them win was disappearing... fast.

It does not surprise me that some of the JKII CTF community is feeling as though they are being backed into the same corner as the Counter-Strike players thru ProMod. Sure, while you need the latest version of CS to continue playing, you don't in terms of ProMod. It is just a mod, and you can go back to standard 1.04.

I've been playing since 1.02, and I will tell you flat out that I believe that CTF has to be the most boring mode in Jedi Knight II. Why? No individuality. Want to use a saber? Too bad the team of all gunners will hunt your arse down and riddle you with holes. Think Mind Trick is great? Not when everyone has force sight 3. Grip, great tool, eh? Not when someone either pushes you, absorbs, or just discharges in your face. The gunner is the god of JKII right now; ProMod is putting gunning in its rightful place.

Instead of just dropping your force points into speed, absorb, push, pull, and sight while neglecting all the saber aspects, you have to *THINK* where your points are going to go. That means *STRATEGY* and *TEAM COORDINATION!* No more of this one man army bulls*it that makes you think you can tread into an opposing team's base, grab the flag, and light up speed/absorb while your flechette is doing the talking. Now you have to think to yourself: "Am I going to get that force power or should I put more ammo in my powerful gun to support my teammate who is running for the flag."
...

Well said, Blackrose, well said.

Doctor Shaft

10-27-2002, 10:06 PM

This is going to be so much fun when all of this stuff gets released.

I think you should hold off and release the pack and the power and the whole lot Artifex, if that means a week or two I guess. Putting out a 3.1 might just confuse people, and they could possibly outright reject some of the newer aspects. It's best not to get the promod community, of whatever it is composed of, all broken up over versions. I'm sure no one would just return to 2.0, but if it were a 3.0 versus 3.1, the possibility exists.

And to all you future version 3 players, you can expect that no matter what gun load outs you have, I'm looking forward to having some instense saber vs gun battles. I've got some experience doing this playing JK2++, but by now I might be rusty, if not completely lost. We'll see. I can't wait for a jetpack either, that will be fun to fight against, not use.

I of course don't plan on using any gadgets, etc. I always wanted to be pure jedi, cuz I'm a dork like that. I want everyone else to use their gadgets on me, just to give me the exhiliration when I know I actually have a decent chance of winning with what i've got too.

Just a few force questions though Artifex. What force changes, if any, are you making for 3.0? Here's a list of things that crossed my mind.

1.)Force Grip: Now that we have this advanced weapons system, and the possibility of jedi who have no other weapons besides his saber and the force, what effectiveness will grip have. Theoretically, in Promod, a gunner or any other person just carrying a gun could pull the trigger to destroy you. JK2++ gave grip one saving grace - you could move the person at level 3 like crazy. No movement restriction, just throw your mouse around like crazy. It made it harder to push off, allowed you to force jump in the air and then drop the person, doing fall damage.

2.)Force Protection: we already had this discussion. Annoying against the saber sometimes, almost useless against some guns. I would be a person who would approve changing its function altogther, but that's probably not going to happen.

3.)Push/Pull: From what I think I know, we should be able to pull someone into a knockdown should we be behind them, and they are in the air, or whatever. Just wondering, will there be a more frequent appearance, or better yet, defineable situations in which we can cause knockdowns. I didn't like that knockdowns were random before, in early versions too often, later versions almost never.

4.)Lightning: Okay, we've got this new weapon system again, but we're still left with jedi that run around with pretty lame force powers. I know you've said that the lightning/drain trick works wonders. Well, what if I just want lightning, then what? You shortened the range, and we know the damage at level 1, and maybe even 2 are practically negligible if you're fast enough or have a counter power. It would be nice if the power was dangerous, but slowed the person down, or put them stationary altogether.

I think that's it. You gave mind trick it's due. If i'm correct, even if my opponent has lvl3 sight and i have lvl3 trick, he still has to be close and looking at my general direction. Also, with this new system, people who choose a whole lot of guns may not have the points left to get the sight needed to see the jedi wannabe's. That's a good thing.

Oh wait, Saber throw. I think that does forty points of damage, right? Any bonus against non saber carrying opponents? well, whatever, you're probably tired of my constant questions/suggestions. Lataz.

Lathain Valtiel

10-27-2002, 10:26 PM

Dr. Shaft, I think the suggestion you placed on Lightning should be applied to Drain too, however methinks it emight be slammed down as a severe nerfing, and ArtifeX has already said no to nerfing anything.

thehomicidalegg

10-28-2002, 12:33 AM

i think you should release 1 patch instead of 2 in such a short time, because that may cause confusion and confliction.

Lathain Valtiel

10-28-2002, 01:06 AM

Homicidal Egg is right, look what it is doing to JediPLUS.

Toa Tahu

10-28-2002, 03:29 AM

Currently I don't like the idea of 'non-weapon find-force-proficiency',or the last force power(I forgot the name,yeah).

Items should be for everyone.Other than that,the pics show great promise for a nicely heralded mod.

Do I need previous versions to run it,and,will there be bot support?

Toonces

10-28-2002, 03:55 AM

Your right ArtifeX, that's a crazy statistic, and very true, I might just find myself writing code someday. I was a computer science major so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch from what I'm doing now :D

Originally posted by MMXP
Homicidal Egg is right, look what it is doing to JediPLUS.

I would aggree with you if this wasn't anything but Promod. Compareing Promod to JediPLUS is like comparing old rusty Chevy to a Porche :) That being said, ArtifeX can take all the time he needs, I'll still be here, I can wait a little longer :D

L3onheart

10-28-2002, 04:28 AM

Why play with guns? It's a SW based game with a lightsaber, provides an unique playing experience. Want guns? Go to Q3A, UT(2k3), CS, DoD, RtCW or what not.
Playing a CTF match with saber-only and full-force, now THAT'S SURREAL SKILLS!

Darth Kaan

10-28-2002, 05:21 AM

After six months of playing NF Duels and FF/SO FFA and TFFA games, I wanted to try something new. So I ventured into the world of CTF.

At heart in this game, I am a Jedi, therefore a saberist/force user. I was interested in CTF game mode because I like TEAM BASED games. It did not take long for me to realize that to play CTF in its current state and be good at it, I would have to lose the Saber, learn to use guns and re-learn when to use certain force powers. Basically for a Saber purist, it is starting all over again and it is NOT Jedi vs Merc because the gunners have full use of the force powers as well.

This was a major turn-off to the game type for me, because the saber/force powers I had learned to use effectively, were a joke vs The guns/force powers combination. So I realized that The anti-saber attitude I encountered amoung the better CTF players was not so much their personel dislike for the saber itself like I originally thought, but instead, an essential one for success in the current CTF game type.

Still and all, this just did sit well with me, based on the fact the two things making JKII unique amoung all FPS games is the Saber and the force powers. In my opinion, with only the force powers being useful to a saberist in CTF mode, the game type is broken. Team based games should be balanced enough that all weapons should be effective when employed with skill.

So as an alternative, I set up my server for FF SO CTF, using Promod Beta 2. While myself and many others liked FF SO CTF, many people did not. So back to all weapons it went.

As a saberist, I like what I am seeing develope with Promod. I can also see why gunners don't. However, unlike the current situation where saberists not only have to relearn force power usage to play CTF effectively AND give up their preffered weapon entirely, gunners won't have to do that with Promod.

I think it will boil down to:

1. Those that want the Saber to be effective again will use Promod.

2. Gun's only players that do not want to be limited as the saber players are in vanilla 1.04 will not.

There may indeed be two different types of CTF arenas in the future...

DeTRiTiC-iQ

10-28-2002, 06:18 AM

Ok, here's the current situation: The Saber ISN'T USELESS in CTF atm, its not used much by the pros because in matches the players move incredibly fast, however that isn't to say it couldn't be used in matches. Its a matter of preference.

Even though I have no trouble killing saberists, all it takes is one with force seeing and a DFA lined up when I come round a corner to stop me. Sure I don' t get killed a lot by the Saber, but then I don't get killed much by the bryar, bowcaster or disruptor.

So here it is, plain and simple: The Saber ISN'T useless in 1.04, its just some people seem to have this idea in their head that they should be able to play CTF using NOTHING BUT sabers in a Guns game, hence the complaints. If you use a saber when the situation dictates, the same as with any other weapon you will likely come out on top of someone who just uses guns.

Now a little extra, GUNS don't dominate CTF, force pull and push do. There, i've said it. I hate the lack of skill required to push and pull someone. To kill a decent player, even if they've got a saber out, is still a challenge, anyone who's played Spider_AL would know this. But its far too easy to kill someone just by tapping pull or push repeatedly.

Oh, and a JETPACK? What a great idea, lets allow players access to all the errors and glitches in maps so that they can shoot but not be shot.

Darth Kaan

10-28-2002, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Ok, here's the current situation: The Saber ISN'T USELESS in CTF atm, its not used much by the pros because in matches the players move incredibly fast, however that isn't to say it couldn't be used in matches. Its a matter of preference.

Even though I have no trouble killing saberists, all it takes is one with force seeing and a DFA lined up when I come round a corner to stop me. Sure I don' t get killed a lot by the Saber, but then I don't get killed much by the bryar, bowcaster or disruptor.

So here it is, plain and simple: The Saber ISN'T useless in 1.04, its just some people seem to have this idea in their head that they should be able to play CTF using NOTHING BUT sabers in a Guns game, hence the complaints. If you use a saber when the situation dictates, the same as with any other weapon you will likely come out on top of someone who just uses guns.

Now a little extra, GUNS don't dominate CTF, force pull and push do. There, i've said it. I hate the lack of skill required to push and pull someone. To kill a decent player, even if they've got a saber out, is still a challenge, anyone who's played Spider_AL would know this. But its far too easy to kill someone just by tapping pull or push repeatedly.

Oh, and a JETPACK? What a great idea, lets allow players access to all the errors and glitches in maps so that they can shoot but not be shot.

Good points and I agree about push and pull, but the use of rage to enhance the fire rate of weapons also seems to be a deciding factor. But thats another topic.

Force/guns beats Saber/force hands down 99 percent of the time. I know I can not weild my Saber to any positive effect for my TEAM's score in CTF, other than cutting down an opposing teams flag carrier when I catch them by surprise. Maybe it is just because I suck at CTF, I most certainly have not ruled that out as a possiblility.

Maybe I am wrong and missing the point, but it seems to me that the biggest imbalance in all weapons, team games, is that Gunners have more points to devote to force powers to further compliment their long and mid range advantage.

With Promod, all players will have to deal with saberists more often as the selection of points will be spread out more now for gunners. Will this make the saber more viable? Not sure, but I can't wait to find out.

If I am wrong, please explain the error in my way of thinking. I want to understand.

ArtifeX

10-28-2002, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by MMXP
QUESTION! How will you incorporate the Jetpacks without making it look absolutely hideous on most models?

Well, to begin with, probably not much. The jetpack itself won't be visible unless you use a model that has the jetpack already in it, like the Mandalores. I'm going to try to use the missile smoke trail as a visual indicator for the time being.

I need to find a good modeller to help me create a jetpack that I can bolt onto the player model when that player has access to the jetpack.

FatalStrike

10-28-2002, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Ok, here's the current situation: The Saber ISN'T USELESS in CTF atm...........Its a matter of preference.

OK I was ready to except this statement until you wrote...

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Sure I don' t get killed a lot by the Saber, but then I don't get killed much by the bryar, bowcaster or disruptor.

So now you have equated the "lightsaber" with the weakest and most utterly useles guns in the game.

You have made everyone elses point for them DeTRiTiC. You first make a claim to saber use being a preference, then you pretty much admit that it is a detriment.

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
So here it is, plain and simple: [b]The Saber ISN'T useless in 1.04, its just some people seem to have this idea in their head that they should be able to play CTF using NOTHING BUT sabers in a Guns game, hence the complaints.

DeTRiC what are you thinking?! This is not a way to simply use sabers all day. This is a way to allow players to choose their advantages, instead of picking up the strongest gun and having them all. What this does is allows players to customize their game plan, decide which guns are important to them and how much of what they are willing to give up to use it.

It levels the playing field for EVERYONE.

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
If you use a saber when the situation dictates, the same as with any other weapon you will likely come out on top of someone who just uses guns.

This is a lie. If you use a heavy repeater in Golan in EVERY situation you still stand a very good chance of winning.

If you based your use of the saber on when the situation dictated in CTF you would only use it as a shield and nothing else. You yourself have said that you do not put any more force points into a saber other then just enough to have one.

Fact is gunners like to having all the advantages and not having to use a saber. This doesn't change the saber part but it does allow saber users to have advantages of their own. That's fair play.

Raven destroyed the Saber, and Artifex brought it back.

The End

ArtifeX

10-28-2002, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
This is going to be so much fun when all of this stuff gets released.

I think you should hold off and release the pack and the power and the whole lot Artifex, if that means a week or two I guess. Putting out a 3.1 might just confuse people, and they could possibly outright reject some of the newer aspects. It's best not to get the promod community, of whatever it is composed of, all broken up over versions. I'm sure no one would just return to 2.0, but if it were a 3.0 versus 3.1, the possibility exists.

Several people have brought this up. I'm beginning to agree. Adding the new power and the jetpack would probably take a couple of weeks to get implemented. The plus side of that is that my closed beta testing of 3.0 would make it pretty rock solid by that point.

Just a few force questions though Artifex. What force changes, if any, are you making for 3.0? Here's a list of things that crossed my mind.

1.)Force Grip: Now that we have this advanced weapons system, and the possibility of jedi who have no other weapons besides his saber and the force, what effectiveness will grip have. Theoretically, in Promod, a gunner or any other person just carrying a gun could pull the trigger to destroy you. JK2++ gave grip one saving grace - you could move the person at level 3 like crazy. No movement restriction, just throw your mouse around like crazy. It made it harder to push off, allowed you to force jump in the air and then drop the person, doing fall damage.

Grip is going to be mostly useful in a team situation. Grabbing an enemy and effectively stunning him for a second is going to provide a teammate with a stationary target for a brief second. Grabbing someone out of the air (while they're using a jetpack) could also get interesting.

2.)Force Protection: we already had this discussion. Annoying against the saber sometimes, almost useless against some guns. I would be a person who would approve changing its function altogther, but that's probably not going to happen.

I'm expecting this power to become one of the premier choices for saber purists. It's going to be one of the best defenses against level 4 guns.

3.)Push/Pull: From what I think I know, we should be able to pull someone into a knockdown should we be behind them, and they are in the air, or whatever. Just wondering, will there be a more frequent appearance, or better yet, defineable situations in which we can cause knockdowns. I didn't like that knockdowns were random before, in early versions too often, later versions almost never.

TK attacks are going to knock people down from behind at a longer range than normal. You'll still be invulnerable to them while crouching on the ground. What's going to be really interesting is that I'm going to put a very high speed limit on the jetpack, but I'm going to enable crash damage if you hit a wall going too fast. So, you'll be able to use Push and Pull to knock a Jetpacker off course and ram them into a wall, resulting in much owwie.

4.)Lightning: Okay, we've got this new weapon system again, but we're still left with jedi that run around with pretty lame force powers. I know you've said that the lightning/drain trick works wonders. Well, what if I just want lightning, then what? You shortened the range, and we know the damage at level 1, and maybe even 2 are practically negligible if you're fast enough or have a counter power. It would be nice if the power was dangerous, but slowed the person down, or put them stationary altogether.

I'm thinking of some things with the new force power that may allow me to lengthen the range just a bit on both drain and lightning. Have to see how it goes.

I think that's it. You gave mind trick it's due. If i'm correct, even if my opponent has lvl3 sight and i have lvl3 trick, he still has to be close and looking at my general direction. Also, with this new system, people who choose a whole lot of guns may not have the points left to get the sight needed to see the jedi wannabe's. That's a good thing.

Oh wait, Saber throw. I think that does forty points of damage, right? Any bonus against non saber carrying opponents? well, whatever, you're probably tired of my constant questions/suggestions. Lataz.

I'm proably going to allow the DEMP2 to reveal any Mind Trickers in its blast radius.

The normal saber throw damage is 30 points. With ProMod's 50% bonus against non-saber wielders, that's 45 points.

ArtifeX

10-28-2002, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Toa Tahu
Currently I don't like the idea of 'non-weapon find-force-proficiency',or the last force power(I forgot the name,yeah).

Items should be for everyone.Other than that,the pics show great promise for a nicely heralded mod.

Do I need previous versions to run it,and,will there be bot support?

No you won't need a previous version to run it, and the bot support is already in and working. Lando will consistently use guns against you, and bots like Desann, Tavion, and Luke will continue to use sabers and force powers against you. Lando's freakin deadly now, btw.

Bot makers won't have to do anything special to their bot files, either. The system uses current information to figure out their skills.

ArtifeX

10-28-2002, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
...
Oh, and a JETPACK? What a great idea, lets allow players access to all the errors and glitches in maps so that they can shoot but not be shot.

If one person with a jetpack can get somewhere, then someone else with a jetpack can get there as well, and shoot them.

If there are maps with glitches out there that could be taken advantage of, then I'm sure that anyone running a ProMod 3.0 CTF competition server will remove them from the arena list if they become a problem.

Doctor Shaft

10-28-2002, 10:32 AM

Keep in mind, this will probably not be as bad as the grappling hook of jedi vs merc servers. The hook thing was a good idea, but the counters against it are non existant. You can smack into any wall you like without consequence, hang indefinitely, and no one could use the force or anything else to manipulate how you move I think. Even if they could, the chances of it are limited.

In this version, I'm sure having a jetpack will be a costly endeavor points wise. I'm sure Artifex won't allow a jetpacker to also be armed to the teeth with multiple high level guns. Hopefully the jet pack will not have indefinite flying ability either. It would be cool if it drained something, and rather than just insta recharge, the packer has to pick up shield units or something.

But anyway, we can force pull and push them, and their velocity will hurt them. In CTF, I don't see this exploit being incredibly damaging. Places like the nar shadaa ctf map have plenty of high spots, but when you're moving fast trying to get that flag, he's not going to be completely successful in his perch, and other jetpackers can get to him. If you have no jetpackers, in some cases you can actually just do a piggy back system and hoist yourself up there. I've seen people grip their buddies up places too. In FFA... well, you'll just have to live with the fact that there are probably going to be some players that will perch themselves in a stupid spot. Just avoid them, watch for their attacks, and let them have a boring game by themselves.

DeTRiTiC-iQ

10-28-2002, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by FatalStrike

So now you have equated the "lightsaber" with the weakest and most utterly useles guns in the game.

You have made everyone elses point for them DeTRiTiC. You first make a claim to saber use being a preference, then you pretty much admit that it is a detriment.

Well Done, you well and truly fell into my trap.

The Bryar, Bowcaster and Disruptor are THE most powerful weapons in the game. I get almost as many kills with the Bryar as I do with the flechette, repeater and rocket launcher.

The Bryar, Bowcaster and Disruptor are the hardest weapons to use well, which is why everyone thinks they are the most useless weapons in the game. But as soon as somone with any proficiency with them starts attacking you, you're in serious trouble.

DeTRiTiC-iQ

10-28-2002, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by L3onheart
Why play with guns? It's a SW based game with a lightsaber, provides an unique playing experience. Want guns? Go to Q3A, UT(2k3), CS, DoD, RtCW or what not.
Playing a CTF match with saber-only and full-force, now THAT'S SURREAL SKILLS!

Because the CTFers play this game for the Force, not for the Saber

FatalStrike

10-28-2002, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

Well Done, you well and truly fell into my trap.

:snear:
Expect to hear from my lawyer! Who the hell do you think you are leaving traps all over the place!!!

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
The Bryar, Bowcaster and Disruptor are THE most powerful weapons in the game. I get almost as many kills with the Bryar as I do with the flechette, repeater and rocket launcher.

:snear:
Bryar? :lol: Look man I understand your little point here but lets step back into reality for a minute. If you and a player as good as you are are having a little gun battle. You have a bryar :lol: he is armed with a Heavy repeatter, the end result is you lose.

Killing a less skilled player then one self does not show your weapons effectiveness as much as it shows your superior skill.

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
The Bryar, Bowcaster and Disruptor are the hardest weapons to use well, which is why everyone thinks they are the most useless weapons in the game. But as soon as somone with any proficiency with them starts attacking you, you're in serious trouble.

Oh yeah FEAR THE BRYAR!!! I'm sure the top teams in TWL are all working on strats to combat Bryar users :rolleyes:

All you have shown is that the saber is SOOOOOO weak that peole have actually started to own with a bryar. Dear God what has Raven done.

FatalStrike

10-28-2002, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

Because the CTFers play this game for the Force, not for the Saber

I agree with you here. However gunners will have to decide which guns and what force, instead of simply all force and all guns.

No one is saying you don't get force and guns, we're just saying that if you choose to be the gunner and have all advantages that come with the longer range and power, you will have a disadvantage in other areas.

DeTRiTiC-iQ

10-28-2002, 01:12 PM

You really think a repeater user will always come out on top over a bryar user? You are more misguided than I thought.

ArtifeX

10-28-2002, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Keep in mind, this will probably not be as bad as the grappling hook of jedi vs merc servers. The hook thing was a good idea, but the counters against it are non existant. You can smack into any wall you like without consequence, hang indefinitely, and no one could use the force or anything else to manipulate how you move I think. Even if they could, the chances of it are limited.

In this version, I'm sure having a jetpack will be a costly endeavor points wise. I'm sure Artifex won't allow a jetpacker to also be armed to the teeth with multiple high level guns. Hopefully the jet pack will not have indefinite flying ability either. It would be cool if it drained something, and rather than just insta recharge, the packer has to pick up shield units or something.

But anyway, we can force pull and push them, and their velocity will hurt them. In CTF, I don't see this exploit being incredibly damaging. Places like the nar shadaa ctf map have plenty of high spots, but when you're moving fast trying to get that flag, he's not going to be completely successful in his perch, and other jetpackers can get to him. If you have no jetpackers, in some cases you can actually just do a piggy back system and hoist yourself up there. I've seen people grip their buddies up places too. In FFA... well, you'll just have to live with the fact that there are probably going to be some players that will perch themselves in a stupid spot. Just avoid them, watch for their attacks, and let them have a boring game by themselves.

One other thing to note is that the perched player wouldn't be helping his team out much. The strategic value of that perch you're talking about is minimal. The player roosting there would just be forcing his team to play minus one player. I doubt any competitive CTF teams are spending much time standing in one spot. :]

ArtifeX

10-28-2002, 01:39 PM

Easy. Let's not turn the thread into another flame war.

Lathain Valtiel

10-28-2002, 01:45 PM

I can see what Fatalstrike is getting at... Weaponwise, the Repeater beats the living piss out of the Bryar.

Repeater has:

Rapid fire, decent damage, formidable non charged secondary that does what, over 40, with splash damage as possible bonus? Someone verify this. This can stack thanks to rapid fire. Accuracy? Who cares if you can send a maelstrom of whatever the hell that thing shoots out?

The Bryar has got:

Excellent accuracy that's for sure. However it's primary damge is what, 20 per primary? Nowhere near as fast as the Repeater in primary killing fire rate. Secondary fire needs a charge time of what, 2, 3 seconds? Damage over 60? I need to check my numbers, I can't remember. Someone verify.

I'm sorry, but if I saw two gunners of equal skill going at it, one with either weapon, I see the Repeater winning often if the guy bothers to MOVE. The trouble with the Bryar is that you 'NEED' spot on accuracy to kill things with bigger weapons with it. The Repeater... Needs far less accuracy, so if it's equal skill, I see the Repeater guy getting most kills.

FatalStrike

10-28-2002, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
You really think a repeater user will always come out on top over a bryar user? You are more misguided than I thought.

Misguided? WTF are you insulting me for you stupid son of a.....hehe just playin :D I won't make this another flame war.

But in all honesty with two player of even skill levels the player with the superior weapon does have a large advantage. You must admit that.....well you don't have to....but you should!

BTW always is too strong a statement I prefer "most of the time" or "most likely"

FatalStrike

10-28-2002, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by ArtifeX
Easy. Let's not turn the thread into another flame war.

was anyone talking to you? LoL!! :D

Lathain Valtiel

10-28-2002, 01:55 PM

*Snicker* Heh... Err.. Missed your post there before I blew my mouth off.. Sorrt Artife!

Lathain Valtiel

10-28-2002, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

Well, to begin with, probably not much. The jetpack itself won't be visible unless you use a model that has the jetpack already in it, like the Mandalores. I'm going to try to use the missile smoke trail as a visual indicator for the time being.

I need to find a good modeller to help me create a jetpack that I can bolt onto the player model when that player has access to the jetpack.

Well, that will look awakward on models WITH jetpacks already.. As a last resort, if you care about looks, why not make a Force that lets you float horizontally, to be combined with Jump? However, that'l suck up Force SOOOO badly...

Doctor Shaft

10-28-2002, 02:27 PM

We might as well stop the discussions about 1.04 elements.

In the end, despite all of our personal discrepencies with the game, it is a strong build. Granted, we can find things about it that we don't like, but overall it is a working game. Yes, lightsaber battles may be less than exciting, dynamic, or the lot for some of us, but in the end, it still works, and definite stradegies exist in terms of making it work. Some of us just don't like it.

I personally have had enough of old school JK2 ctf in any form, whether it's .02, .03, .04, or JK2++. I had the most fun JK2++ style, but it was still an endless one man army most of the time. Unless you had a well meshed team, but even then, the common stradegy was to have a runnner, a flag guard, a middle man, and a floater, or just another runner. Good game, but since you're mostly playing with a random assortment of people, this kind of structure doesn't usually exist.

Promod is going a different direction, but I like it. It's finally taking away all the super hyper dynamic adrenaline rush that previous versions of JK2 have brought at high levels. Some people enjoy that, I find it enjoyable to a point, but the skill levels and styles all eventually migrate to one point. I think promod has the potential to have multiple successful styles.

It's like a preference for either Marvel vs Capcom 2 (a street fighter game) or Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike. By no means does MVC2 have no stradegy or elite skills involved, but the basic mechanics of it are about speed and overrunning the opponent OR using that speed and super powers to keep the person away. 3rd Strike is a much slower game compared to MVC2, but also has multiple layers of game play. Some people can parry their opponents' moves to death, while others rely more on creating pressure and faking the guy out with another type of character. I liken Promod to that style.

FatalStrike

10-28-2002, 02:41 PM

Shaft makes a good point.

This new style will force players to specialize their set up for where the plan to play in CTF. No more one man team.

zerowingzero

10-28-2002, 05:56 PM

The bryar and repeater can be deadly to those not holding a saber or swinging a saber, the secondary charged can do about 100 damage, but compared to other guns in terms of firing rate, speed, and damage it's outclassed. a lv4 bryar does 100+ in promod...

DeTRiTiC-iQ

10-28-2002, 06:31 PM

Well actually, the bryar can get past people even with high saber defence, it just requires a bit more skill and agility.

The bryar isn't outclassed by any weapons, since you can easily avoid a stream of high frequency shots ie the repeater and stormie rifle, and you can easily avoid the slower moving explosive attacks. However the Bryar shot is accurate AND deadly, and its the shot that you can't predict.

Lathain Valtiel

10-28-2002, 06:40 PM

Lv. 4 Bryar does over 100 in secondary I HOPE.. Heh.

Doctor Shaft

10-28-2002, 06:51 PM

100+ Wow. That's great. Here's hoping that red stance will do 100 damage instead of 90, off hand.

Anyway, if the briar can do that, I can see a jetpack bryar combination being deadly. That would be cool to try.

zerowingzero

10-28-2002, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Well actually, the bryar can get past people even with high saber defence, it just requires a bit more skill and agility.

The bryar isn't outclassed by any weapons, since you can easily avoid a stream of high frequency shots ie the repeater and stormie rifle, and you can easily avoid the slower moving explosive attacks. However the Bryar shot is accurate AND deadly, and its the shot that you can't predict.

Bryar is outclassed, don't know who you've been playing. If every weapon was equal, why are AOE guns better?
BTW, only way to get someone with the saber is from behind or when they are swinging their saber, don't know how agility works in geting threw lv3 defence.

Lathain Valtiel

10-28-2002, 07:21 PM

Artife, will you eventually grant Forces a fourth level of power, like the guns?

zerowingzero

10-28-2002, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by MMXP
Artife, will you eventually grant Forces a fourth level of power, like the guns?

I'm gonna have to guess that he won't as the reason for the gun point system was to ballance out the fact that you didnt need to put any points in guns in order to use them, i'd rather have tweaks to existing powers than another level to worry about.

DeTRiTiC-iQ

10-28-2002, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by zerowingzero

Bryar is outclassed, don't know who you've been playing. If every weapon was equal, why are AOE guns better?
BTW, only way to get someone with the saber is from behind or when they are swinging their saber, don't know how agility works in geting threw lv3 defence.

I've been playing the best, how about you? Agility works quite simply, it helps you get behind the person in order to shoot them, the faster and more agile your jumping ability allows you to be, the greater your chances of beating someone with level 3 saber defense.

I honestly believe that the bryar is one of the best weapons if you are patient enough to learn how to use it, I'm by no means a bryar master, since my accuracy sucks, but I can kill quite a few people with it no matter what weapon they are using, the same in fact with any gun, except the DEMP which i've only ever used a couple of times :p

zerowingzero

10-28-2002, 08:04 PM

The problem with the bryar is that although it can kill people good, the rate at which it fires and the ease of avoiding it's blast is much greater than other guns, which really means you might be a killing machine with the bryar, but the odds are the person will kill you first with th other gun.

And it does do wonders againsed saber weilders who think it's a useless weapon.

Lathain Valtiel

10-28-2002, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by zerowingzero

I'm gonna have to guess that he won't as the reason for the gun point system was to ballance out the fact that you didnt need to put any points in guns in order to use them, i'd rather have tweaks to existing powers than another level to worry about.

Ah.. What I can't help but notice though is that it takes more points to fully upgrade a gun profiencency compared to Forces, which I find slightly unfair to the gunners to a point. Granted, the guns are better then, but I think such a higher proficency should exist for Forces as well. (Plus, I dare say it's highly unrealistic to be able to master a Force Power more easily than a gun...)..

..Holy, I'm a saberist and I'm defending gunners. What;s wrong with me?

zerowingzero

10-28-2002, 09:12 PM

Level 3 guns are exactly like their current counterparts, while lv 4 are the same with some "bonuses", like ammo consumption and damage, a.k.a jedi's had better run.

Doctor Shaft

10-29-2002, 12:39 AM

there's no point in putting a fourth level of force powers. Granted, if we look at the whole system as being based on points, then force powers should take a whole buttload, and guns not so much.

But remember, the point is to remove the possibility of a style of play that really has no competition. The high speed gun fights of old, unless you put in some totally new complicated fighting system in between all of it, you can't really beat the Quake 3 style of play. People will say it's not Quake 3, but let's face it, it's Quake on crack with Star Wars-esque guns. Artifex put a higher value on those guns because we know from experience that those weapons are extremely versatile, some of those guns work well in all situations of combat.

Also, less points on the force powers means that a pure, complete jedi can exist to fight the awesome gun power. If a level 4 gun gets less ammo consumption, AND more power, then I better have the ability to have a slew of force powers at my disposal to counter.

My only concern is that with the powers as they are, they are kind of ineffective against gunners. I already mentioned my concerns previously about certain powers. I still think stuff like grip and lightning are seriously useless when it comes down to fighting guns, and while I don't want to be running around with a 'force gun', i certainly wish those powers were more versatile, like stunning, slowing a target down, etc. I wouldn't mind seeing all the force powers have some sort of twist. Promod mind trick has one. i don't want the twist to be an extra level though. Just something that makes force powers more part of the game. Whatever, it's good as it is. We'll see.

ArtifeX

10-29-2002, 09:06 AM

I'm sure there will be some work to do with the balance of the new system once it's released. Some of the Force Powers/Weapon Skills will probably need a boost/minus. Currently I'm looking at Grip, Push/Pull, Flechette and the Demp for some adjusting (yes, I want to make the Demp not suck).

Update:
I'm ironing out the remaining bugs, and looking at how I'm going to implement the jetpack and the new force power. I'm pretty confident that I can pull them both off.

With adding both of those, I'd say 2 weeks for a public release. The new force power will be especially sticky, as the current number of force powers is so heavily integrated into so many places in the code. Surprisingly, I think the jetpack will be really easy to code. Now I just need to find a modeller...

Lathain Valtiel

10-29-2002, 10:34 AM

Wait, last I checked the DEMP 2's secondary can't be blocked... And has splash damage with a fairly nice radius.. I say it does NOT suck, but eh...

First, ZWZ, I knew that already, but the logic goes, why is there a mastery level above the former counterparts for guns, yet not for Forces? That's my ONLY hitch with this. In fact, I can see a creative way of how to use a 4th Level mastery of Sabers going, after all, aren;t THEY weapons too?

Here's a nice example.. I remember hearing Arti here say that if and when he does a 2 saber style, it will be designed for pure offense. Well then, if there was a 4th Force level, why not make it so that this specialized offemsive style gets in the hands of people who raise say, Saber Attack to 4? I daresay that makes sense, a specialization in Attack getting you a, surprise, purely offensive style.

Same goes with Arti's Lightstaff idea, but for Saber Defense.

I think it's reasonable for Sabers at least, considering they are weapons just like the Guns...

FatalStrike

10-29-2002, 11:31 AM

The Demp 2

- Its primary fire is slow, easy to dodge, and weak.

- Secondary Fires is instant hit with a huge splash, but is weak relative to the time it takes to fully charge

- This weapon is rare, since very few maps have it available.

If you wanted to make it better, make the secondary fire result in a greater knock back when fully charged. Increase it rate of fire in Primary. However these changes willnot mean much since its so rare.

Toonces

10-29-2002, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by ArtifeX
Now I just need to find a modeller...

I replied to your inquery via PM ArtifeX, I'm not sure if you got it or not

Doctor Shaft

10-29-2002, 02:10 PM

Push/Pull and Grip eh?

Oh yeah, I could agree with Fatalstrike's idea, although that would lend to some major kiddie spam "haha, i knocked you all down again!!!" Perhaps make the final charge eat great deals of energy, i don't know.

In terms of push/pull, right now it's obviously almost impossible to knock down unless you have a higher level of push/pull. But how often is that going to happen? Not much.

Anyway, it would be good if the following would happen, pending the person isn't crouching, and you have equal levels of the power.

1.)Person's force pool is at 25% or less, equals knockdown. Or maybe like 15%, although I like it when I have to be very careful about what I do.

2.)If a person has back turned, close range, knockdown (I assume that would be too complicated to code accuratel).

3.)Person gets jump, close range knockdown.

4.) I don't know if you actually changed much in terms of the saber combat mechanics besides the trump system. But what about the possibility that during csc match ups, ie when a saber clash comes and the csc check goes in your favor, and you knock the person back or whatever, allow a knockdown their as well, or at least the possibility.

5.) If you are being gripped, and say the person succesfully gets in like two full seconds, or three, then if they decide push at the end, knockdown.

6.) For the light side users, a person uses the darkside powers, you absorb that stuff, you get a small window to take the energy you earned to knockdown, regardless if they're crouching or not. So you'd actually counter rather than just stand there. Or you could just stand there... standing there is cool.

7.) Using push/pull, in order to put some danger into using a more dangerous power, should leave you, saber AND force power wise, defenseless for a second or two. You get a huge csc penalty -- i.e. you're helpless -- and you can't just jump or speed yourself away. Oh, and you're knockdowns all have to occur with both feet on the ground, no launching yourself in the air and pushing everyone off their feet.

Of course, this will lend to people getting all push/pull happy virtually every swing. Something clever would have to be done to make a person pay for taking that chance. I have no imagination

Grip is a hard one. I'm not concerned about damage. It does good damage if you manage to hold it long enough on someone. It would be nice if you could get rid of the ability to fire weapons while gripped. Maybe it won't make much sense to people, but that's like a freebie right there. "oh, i'm gripped, that just makes it easier to shoot you". Also, it is completely useless escept at level 3 when you can move them off a ledge. Even then, it's mostly a suicide drop tool, or a ctf suicide drop tool, nothing more.

If you were to increase the damage that grip does, maybe you could give grip a kind of lock on thing, like the rocket launcher. Right now, it's basically press the button and wait, and then people take like 2 damage and end up hurting you more. If it did more damage off the bat, you try to lock on, but the lock can be busted by getting hit, blocking another lightsaber attack, using another force power of your own, including force jump, having a push or pull being used on you, etc. etc. etc. It would be hard to get the lock, but if you got it, you could do something pretty annoying.

If not that, then just do what JK2++ did. At level 3 you were able to move you opponent as fast as you could fling your mouse. Some people were able to keep you from getting a succesful push or pull quite well, some people would fling you around, then jump in the air and drop you. It worked to a degree, but wasn't extremely effective, just annoying.

And the new force power should be Force Beg for Mercy. This way, when someone has me near death, I can hear my model scream and cry in agony before it's destroyed. ahahahahahah... no.

Oh yeah, and when your server finally goes back up with the offical 3.0 release, please put dismemberment on. I just gotta see the torsos, the bottoms of legs (which i most frequently get), and arms come off.

Mex

10-29-2002, 02:20 PM

Grip is sooo annoying, some stupid child comes on, "look at this!" *drops down hole* "ahahahhahahahhahahahaha! LOLOL" .... Haha, not...

FatalStrike

10-29-2002, 02:25 PM

as for push pull, you all do realize that in 1.02 you could not be knocked down by push/pull if you stood still correct?

In 1.02 people anticipate your pull and/or push and stop for a sec and attack you while you recover. I really don't understand the use of "Pro" in "ProMod" with so many people having noobish worries. Honestly people if you can't dispatch a spammer with ease, you shouln't have your name associated with the 3 letters P-R-O.

Spamming is the concern of a noob. Good players shouldn't give a rats ass about a spammers since the conern of a good player is winning and not "making it real" or having it "look cool" A spammer = easy target so please lets not worry about that crap.

Also I would it be possible to up the animation speed of a back stab? I have noticed that falling in ProMod happens less often then sprouting wings, and don't see the harm in my being able to use a BS when some noob attemps to go around me. I could simply strafe turn BAM! You could NOT ass fight due to the deadly saber and the no ass blocking. Seriously a quick BS is a great and difficult to execute attack against annoying circle around you fighters. Problem is the BS is so slow that you couldn't catch a a one legged cat with it.

Lets put the Pro into ProMod and make this more then a simple saber swing Mod. Return the special moves but eliminate one hit kills. That way we all have wonderful attacks, but none of those lucky kills that pissed off duelers.

FatalStrike

10-29-2002, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Flanders
Grip is sooo annoying, some stupid child comes on, "look at this!" *drops down hole* "ahahahhahahahhahahahaha! LOLOL" .... Haha, not...

Be careful your statement has put you on a "noob watch"

I don't know of any good players that have trouble braking out of grip unless they have 0 force remaining.

Mex

10-29-2002, 02:31 PM

I was doing an example Mr.Ithinkiknowitall unless you are brain damaged and think otherwise, I have the common sence to use absorb, but some other people.... Do not...

Example : Bespin map, On the pad, grip and push, = Goldmine for idiots,

Counter absorb, : Go and saber the gripping idiot while he is still trying to counter your absorb

And I think protection should make the grip do 0 damage.

And I also think, Mind trick should be changed! Once I have finished my dinner, I shall be back :) P.S I am not a noob

Doctor Shaft

10-29-2002, 02:39 PM

Change mind trick? To what? It's a mind trick.

It's fine as in Promod. It's difficult for the person to see you. When you swing or attack, the trick is over. It's great. You need an equal level of force sight to catch the person.

And, since everyone likes guns, it'll be useful for those who don't have enough points to use other powers.

Mex

10-29-2002, 02:46 PM

I think it should perswade another player to think he is another player (or bot) and then when they hit it or use force, it disappears :rolleyes:

Or well in otherwords, a temporary illusion

Syfo-Dyas

10-29-2002, 08:42 PM

Since this is turning into a debate thread about ProMod and guns, I thought I'd try and keep the State of ProMod3 active with stuff that would probably be a little off-topic in this thread.

I posted a question there which you can check out by clicking here (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=885111#post885111) .

Rad Blackrose

10-29-2002, 09:51 PM

Flanders = Idiot. Enough said.

If there is one thing I would like to see altered in grip, it would be the ability to do damage via throwing people into walls, ceilings, floors, etc. I mean come on, we have the bastard lifted in the air already. Why not make him regret it?

ArtifeX

10-30-2002, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Push/Pull and Grip eh?

Oh yeah, I could agree with Fatalstrike's idea, although that would lend to some major kiddie spam "haha, i knocked you all down again!!!" Perhaps make the final charge eat great deals of energy, i don't know.

In terms of push/pull, right now it's obviously almost impossible to knock down unless you have a higher level of push/pull. But how often is that going to happen? Not much.

Anyway, it would be good if the following would happen, pending the person isn't crouching, and you have equal levels of the power.
...

I'm really wary of doing too much to TK attacks at one time. Push and Pull are arguably the most useful force powers right now, even with their inability to knock someone down of equal power level. Just by making them knock an opponent down when close and within the target's rear-facing 45-degrees will make many people start using them a lot more. Once 3.0 is out there, I'll see how that affects things and make adjustments as necessary.

I did turn dismemberment on in Beta 2 by default, but only set the server variable to "1", which hardly ever results in a dismember. It actually needs to be set to "100" to happen every time you get killed from what I hear. I also set the default client side variable to "1", but people's jk2mpconfig.cfg file will probably set this to "0", so they'll have to enable it manually to see the effect.

Mex

10-30-2002, 02:01 PM

Rad Blackrose = stupid idiot nuff said....

And are you going to think about my idea??

Mind trick = Temporary illusion? :)

Doctor Shaft

10-30-2002, 03:55 PM

I believe you do need to set it to 100 to get it all the time. I usually put in some outrageous number like 300 or something, works all the time, looks wonderful.

You're right about tk, as much as I wish it would knockdown at some point, for now it's probably best left as is.

thehomicidalegg

10-31-2002, 03:14 AM

from 100-300 its the level of dismember i believe.... 100 only cuts of arms while 300 allows everything to b cut of i think

taboo

10-31-2002, 04:45 AM

Looks very promising Artifex. As per usual, the devil is in the details so I imagine there will be some adjustments to be made along the way but whoa Nelly, it looks damn good.

Will you be beefing up the DFA at all? I'm not a big fan of the 1.02 DFA but in its current incarnation it seems pretty useless.

ArtifeX

10-31-2002, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by taboo
Looks very promising Artifex. As per usual, the devil is in the details so I imagine there will be some adjustments to be made along the way but whoa Nelly, it looks damn good.

Will you be beefing up the DFA at all? I'm not a big fan of the 1.02 DFA but in its current incarnation it seems pretty useless.

The DFA is a sticky subject. Some people still seeth at the thought of the DFA becoming too useful once again. When it comes down to it, most saber fighting should be done on the ground, with aerial attacks thrown in only in the rare circumstances where they're useful. I think the special moves in general need a slight, and I do mean slight beefing up. Once I get some things that I'm currently working on ironed out, then I'll see about adjusting them.

FatalStrike

10-31-2002, 12:45 PM

What make special attacks cheap?

Lets start with everyone’s favorite the DFA, red stance.

Problems with the Red Stance DFA was obvious, its was buggy and too effective. It was a crushing attack that took out low to medium skilled players with ease. However to go along with its power it had a bug the toe kill. If you stepped on a buried saber, BAM, you died. That is idiotic and frankly more then slightly annoying.

The DFA was “fixed” by Raven with a complete nerf job. Instead of addressing it problems they decided to avoid having to actually fix its buggy coding by making it a silly straight arrow move that is completely without use in high level competition. On top of that they gave it a ridiculous recover time so as to prevent over use. It is my opinion that Raven took the easy way out in addressing this; perhaps they didn’t have programmers that had enough available time to lend to this area. Nerfing it was quick and easy.

My suggestions are simple, allow the DFA to spin, but do not allow it to spin once it has landed. If there is a way to stop the toe kill, that would be great, but stopping it from spinning once it landed would make avoiding a motionless saber incredibly easy. Also I would weaken it. If you want less people to use it, remove its one hit kill ability. This way this does in fact become a finisher, since to use it as an opening move would be unwise. I suggest giving it the attack strength of a single Yellow stance hit. It already has a huge attack advantage since it is harder then many attacks to avoid, so its penalty should be that it is the weakest of all heavy stance hits.

My solution would – stop its over use, since missing would leave you motionless and in ProMod; Standing still = death. It would eliminate over use since it would be too weak to allow you to use it over and over again in FFA. Landing a hit would not guarantee a kill but sitting still in an FFA battle zone would kill you. It would also give us another viable attack option.

Stay tuned for my Back Stab Rant coming soon

FatalStrike

10-31-2002, 12:59 PM

Back Stab Rant as promised!

What made the BS the cheapest of all moves in JKII history? Force Pull and Uber blocking.

Force Pull resulting in so many knockdowns coupled with the no bounce off effect of 1.03 made BS the ultimate killer. Many people blamed the fact that it could spin, but I ask you, how would that have mattered if you didn’t fall down?

Also how would you use a BS if you couldn’t block so many hits? Do you think that you could ass fight in ProMod? No you would get cut in half, as all of us you play ProMod know – if your enemy gets behind you, you die.

So I say allow the back swing to spin, if it doesn’t the animation speed is to slow to actually hit someone. We have already established that you can’t @ss fight, you can’t pull people down, so why not?

Many ProMod players attempt to move around you, and a BS would be a perfect counter for those that come to close when they attempt this. It would be difficult to pull off fast enough so that you don’t get your self killed, and have no (read: Zero, Nada, uh uh, nil, never) spam ability.

Once again we would have another attack without the spam. A very hard to pull off move that one done correctly would result in good damage, but the risk would be very high indeed.

/rant

Also please note that it is important that ALL special moves result in a bounce back effect so they do not end up hitting 2 or more times.

THE END

ArtifeX

10-31-2002, 01:10 PM

Specials with knockback that disallowed multiple hits would cause the specials to do very little damage, especially the DFA. You almost always hit near the beginning of the animation with the DFA, where the damage is very small. If you added knockback to that hit, that would push your target out of range of the rest of the swing, and have him end up with maybe 30-40 points of damage, tops.

The only time I'm going to consider using any knockback effect is when two sabers collide. One player would have to be using a swing that overpowered the defender's block. Such as Strong swing vs. Blue defense.

Just have to wait and see if I can fit it in.

FatalStrike

10-31-2002, 01:12 PM

BS must have a knock back or its one hit and bye bye.

However I see your point with the DFA.

Doctor Shaft

10-31-2002, 04:12 PM

I'm all for the dangerous revival of special moves. I had said it over and over many times myself that the backstab was never a problem in 1.03. Some people, who think the 'balance' of the game was seriously messed up by having a backstab move do so much damage, and perhaps it was odd that 90% of the swings were turned into wiffle bat attacks and then the backstab could do tremendous stuff. But it wasn't the backstab that ruined 1.03, it was the force pull issue, and the incredibly over-the-top blocking system. Some people, now playing 1.04, have gotten good at playing with the low damage, random blocking sabers. Credit is given to them where credit is due, I personally couldn't stand how the system worked, and while I certainly did not suck, my way of thinking and seeing the game did not match what was actually going with the game.

Promod does not have random or over the top blocking, and matches more closely with what I see and think while playing. It also means, as Fatalstrike said, that a powerful backstab is not dangerous or over the top at all. Remember, a blue BS still takes time to animate. The person has to be precisely lined up to get it to activate, and you can still very easily land a shot into their back. Right now, it's utterly worthless. Seriously, back stab actually hurts you more than it does the opponent, and that's just for trying it out. So far, after testing the move, I've landed the hit about six times, good hits. The damage i did was... tada... 30!!! Meanwhile, while I'm going through this whole long animation sequence, looking all cool, sticking my saber through their body, and what not, they proceed to hit my two times in yellow stance and kill me. I'm glad that yellow stance killed me quickly, because I can't stand the general public view that unless we are firing a gun, everything should take several hits to kill us, but it peeves me that I went through all that trouble timing my opponents approach, lining up the attack, and then landing it, only to realize that I should never have tried the attack in the first place. There's never a good reason to use it.

Also, even though I did hit, like Fatalstrike said, there is no knockback, so I not only hit, but I then I just stood there. It was like I had turned my lightsaber off and started typing "hehe, let's see how fast you can kill me". The blocking in Promod is good, in fact, better than good. I used to have trouble ensuring that I would get a block, but after practicing, I can now often ensure myself that I can block a technique. Sometimes, I don't even really run that much, I run in, but then start walking, I like to crowd the person, and the blocking matches my aiming ability. A powerful backstab, i.e one that would do damage like a red stance swing, heck i would go for even higher than that, would be nice. In terms of letting it spin, I fear that would allow someone to literally do a spinning top thing with their backstab out, effectively making the move uncounterable. It would be one of the safest sabering moves in the game. I would like if we could do high damage backstabs, but also if the move had enough delay in it to make a player pay for his mistake, dearly.

For the DFA, having it not do a one hit kill would ge silly looking. You went through all of that effort, only to bear no fruit. Personally, I think the DFA was a silly move ot make to begin with. Making it spin in the air also is bad, because it just causes people to jump all around with it. I'm not afraid of the DFA, in any case, but it also just looks and feels ridiculous compared to the overall saber combat. Rather than make it spin, etc, since it does look like it's a kind of force motivated jump, rather than a realistic one, why not just speed up it's trajectory. Make the lunge of the attack come out faster. I don't know, even shorten the jump length, or the time it takes to get the swing out, but leave in all the recovery time, etc.

I have tons of thoughts spewing in my head, bear with me. If saber combat did allow a person to knock a person off balance in confrotation, like I the idea I had been putting out before with momentum, and such, then the DFA as is would be a good and useable move. Knock person off balance in a block, the opponent goes through his block animation, but he is slowed down and effectively stunned, only to watch as the DFA lands on him. That would be good, but it seems Promod will not be able to have that kind of stunning, so this idea is kind of flat.

Sorry Fatal, I am always a supporter of dangerous lightsabers, but I just can't think of how to implement the DFA and make it useful without basically reverting back to the old style. It's not impossible to beat, but the majority of Promod players would probably reel back and reject the game.

FatalStrike

10-31-2002, 04:21 PM

The only reason I think the DFA should spin is because at the moment it is so precise a attack that most of the time players accidentally dodge it. Which is to say that they can' even see you DFA coming but the happen to flinch and oops you missed. That is gay, plain and simple.

If it is to stay as is the recovery time should shorten. As is you are 5000% (only an estimate) times more likely to die if you use a DFA then if you are the traget of one.

Let the damn thing spin, as long as it isn't a one hit kill who the hell cares! Let them hit you and then kill them. Besides if the only reason we have against it is because some people don't like the way it looks.....thats sad.

zerowingzero

10-31-2002, 06:05 PM

allright what about this:

Backstabs: have them do damage equal to their style, but widen the arc of where it is unblockable, and maybe add a knockback at the end of the animation. Blue should be a parry, yellow should have a faster animation then red and a knockdown if the opponent's csc is low, and red should have a knockdown at the end unless the opponents csc defence is perfect.

DFA: Have it unblockable, unless by a full blue defence, and then, a knockdown at the end of the animation

I don't know if you can actually add knockdowns at certain frames of the animation, but it would be nice. Again, red DFA's should be all but unblockable, because the chance that you actually land one and that it isnt blocked as the other person dodges it is VERY low.

Doctor Shaft

10-31-2002, 06:26 PM

I like your ideas there zero, except with the blue bs damage.

With blue, stance everything is about being defense and then quickly squashing your opponent with quick strikes, and if the backstab, which takes a good amount of timing to execute, only does 30, then there's really no rational benefit. You're better off sticking to the normal, much quicker and easier to use swings.

zerowingzero

10-31-2002, 06:29 PM

The reasoning the damage would be so low, is that blue is about being fery fast, maybe speeding up the animation a tad? If backstabs did regular damage and can't spin, the won't be spamed because it would be more effective to swing normally, and if they can't be blocked, and if it provided a parry or defence breaker, it would serve as a good defence for a sneak attack rather than your main stratagy.

FatalStrike

11-01-2002, 08:58 AM

The main issue is that some like saber swings and some like special moves.

I don't want to "only use it in VERY special situations" I want to use it everytime that my enemy gives me an opening. If he doens't then I won't use it. However I don't want one hit kills of any sort. There is no need for them.

1.04 is still to slow and clunky for me to enjoy basic saber swings, with nothing else to spice it up. Frankly I want to be able to launch the attack the situation calls for, and at the moment launching a DFA gets you killed, and 50% of the time they dodge it BY ACCIDENT. Thats is too gay for me. You call something Pro and you keep the nerfs they made for NOOBS.

Defense is fixed offense should be fixed as well. There is no reason to keep this clunky saber system the encourages front north-south fighting. Your only reward for strafe hits are a slow retarded spin.

Doctor Shaft

11-01-2002, 12:04 PM

Oh yeah, which reminds me. Is it possible that you can return yellow stance back to its 1.02 glory Artifex, or is that too complicated an endeavor?

I figure since you gave red stance back it's former glory, no sense in keeping the slowed down yellow stance. At this point, red stance and yellow stance are kind of the same speed now, except the red swings are wider and have a longer wind up.

It would be nice to have the offensive prowess returned. It would be the base stance. Fighting gunners you have a fast, but long reaching stance. I figure, if we are giving gunners the option of sacrificing force powers, but then also giving them the ability to decrease the amount of ammo consumption and increase their firepower even more (it's already pretty high), then we should at least have once stance that we can depend on should things get tricky.

the current yellow stance I have been using in JK2++ against gunners. The thing is, a lot of the times, it's speed only allows you to kind of joust with the gunners... you can be real close sometimes, but your swings are just slow enough that should you both be using force speed and bunny hopping, your swings are just missing. Sometimes I'm on the money, but meanwhile the gunner is effortless just aiming random explosives. I more aggressive yellow stance return would help a little.

ArtifeX

11-01-2002, 01:24 PM

Good comments all around, here. Keep them coming.

I agree that I've got to modify the backstab/sweeps. The risk vs. reward ratio is way out of whack for them. I've been aware of their disproportionate damage since just after the release of beta 2. I'll be upping them all to around 100 damage before 3.0's release.

The DFA is a different animal. The risk factor with a DFA isn't anywhere near as high as during an attempted backstab/sweep, especially if you're doing it in a confined space such as a narrow hallway. The DFA user is immune to being knocked into a deflection or knockaway animation, so even if your aim is off, you're guaranteed to complete the swing. The recovery time is pretty short, too. You can also jump out of a DFA recovery pretty quickly, avoiding getting hit most of the time.

Allowing the DFA to spin would just make it even more safe to attempt. I really don't think that's what the move needs.

I don't want the DFA to become something that someone could become so skilled with that most of their saber kills come from it. It needs to remain very difficult to land, but rewarding when you do. I think it already meets that requirement. 100+ damage plus the CSC bonuses garnered from the Red stance, and whatever bonus you get for gravity. Used against a Blue stance user, you'll get another +5 to your offense check, and they'll get a -5, yielding another +10 total. That's a possible 15+ points, which gets you halfway to a defense breaker if your aim is comparable with theirs.

ArtifeX

11-01-2002, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Oh yeah, which reminds me. Is it possible that you can return yellow stance back to its 1.02 glory Artifex, or is that too complicated an endeavor?

I figure since you gave red stance back it's former glory, no sense in keeping the slowed down yellow stance. At this point, red stance and yellow stance are kind of the same speed now, except the red swings are wider and have a longer wind up.

It would be nice to have the offensive prowess returned. It would be the base stance. Fighting gunners you have a fast, but long reaching stance. I figure, if we are giving gunners the option of sacrificing force powers, but then also giving them the ability to decrease the amount of ammo consumption and increase their firepower even more (it's already pretty high), then we should at least have once stance that we can depend on should things get tricky.

the current yellow stance I have been using in JK2++ against gunners. The thing is, a lot of the times, it's speed only allows you to kind of joust with the gunners... you can be real close sometimes, but your swings are just slow enough that should you both be using force speed and bunny hopping, your swings are just missing. Sometimes I'm on the money, but meanwhile the gunner is effortless just aiming random explosives. I more aggressive yellow stance return would help a little.

I'm leery of empowing yellow too much. I've already had to move its damage down from 60 to 55 from beta 1 to beta 2 because of its dominance. I am starting to get the impression it needs something else to distinguish itself from Red now that Red has had its 45-degree requirement removed. I'll look at increasing its swing speed, but any adjustment I make will have to be very slight so that Blue won't lose its own speed advantage.

CoreyGH

11-03-2002, 12:28 AM

First, I'd like to mention that I'm very dissapointed that I won't be able to actively participate in the growth of Promod. My ship (in the Navy) just left port and I won't be connecting to any game servers for quite some time.

That being said, I can still read about what's going on and I have a question.

Why can't we force pull items (shields, health, ammo) in Multiplayer? It was in JK1 and I thought it really added to the gameplay. Could we see this added into promod?

ArtifeX

11-03-2002, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by CoreyGH
First, I'd like to mention that I'm very dissapointed that I won't be able to actively participate in the growth of Promod. My ship (in the Navy) just left port and I won't be connecting to any game servers for quite some time.

That being said, I can still read about what's going on and I have a question.

Why can't we force pull items (shields, health, ammo) in Multiplayer? It was in JK1 and I thought it really added to the gameplay. Could we see this added into promod?

Always a possibility, and something I'd like to do. I've got a few other things I have to implement before then, however.

Doctor Shaft

11-06-2002, 11:17 PM

Now everyone with a server is up and running and trying out Promod 3.0. I'm going nuts!!!!! How close are you to completing the package Artifex? I know that you're actually doing me a huge favor and I shouldn't question you... but now I'm too excited. I need Promod. I must become a jedi. I must fail out of the rest of my college curriculum in order to fully engorge myself in the dorky star wars universe. I must wield my deadly lightsaber, or have fun flying around with a bryar pistol and some thermal detonators. I must try out your new force power, which for the past month you have refused to describe to me. I'm dying Artfex, I'm stalking you, I know where you live (not really).

So yeah, any news, still testing maps and such then?

Lathain Valtiel

11-07-2002, 12:09 AM

*Echoes Dr. Shaft;s words to a tee, only emphasizes it with a crazed look in the eyes and a bit of drool hanging from lips*

ArtifeX

11-07-2002, 09:10 AM

LOL

Didn't realize I was going to induce rabies with the delay! Here's how things are going so far:

The past week has been turbulent. I've been looking at selling my house and moving, but that fell through, so I should now have more time to wrap up 3.0.

What I have been doing is working with my beta testers to wring out any bugs with the new weapon skills system. You'd be surprised how something that seems so simple on the surface ends up being a major change to the code. Removing these bugs is a very high priority. I want this release to be as bug-free as possible, as the guys at the athenagt.net tournament in Italy not too long ago are going to be running a ProMod-only tournament with this upcoming release.

I'm also gathering info to better balance the level 4 guns against jedi. I'm going to be making some neat changes to the way some of the guns work in order to make them a bit more sane in how much damage they do, their firing rate, etc. As it stands now, the Golan is way too uber. I've got some adjustments to do with the level 4 blaster-class weapons as well.

How far away is it from complete? Good question. It just depends on how easy things like getting the jetpack model into the game and adding new control keys are. It could be as soon as a week if I have plenty of time to work on it and I don't hit any snags. Worst case scenario would be that I run into something that I can't work around and have to email the dev team at Raven with a question. They usually take a couple of weeks or more to answer mail. I haven't had to do this as yet, but I haven't tried anything quite as complex as adding a new force power and jetpack, both of which will need command buttons bound. Keep your fingers crossed.

Lathain Valtiel

11-07-2002, 02:14 PM

Question.. Will you be doing anything about the Repeater's secondary? After all, last I checked it was quite mighty and sabers/force are absolutely USELESS on it, even Push doesn't do much I think.

zerowingzero

11-07-2002, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by MMXP
Question.. Will you be doing anything about the Repeater's secondary? After all, last I checked it was quite mighty and sabers/force are absolutely USELESS on it, even Push doesn't do much I think.

Heh, here are some tips on fighting someone who has a repeater:

1: Never push, too much force, and even if it goes back to them it's only 1/2 damage (test it yourself, all weapons)

2: Throw may seem like a good idea, but no, you can't recharge and you'll never hit your target

3: Never try to attack, just dodge, roll, dodge, untill their out of ammo, or you can pull their weapon. As of now, because of the 1/2 self damage for all weapons, even if you do somehow close the gap between you and your opponent, there is nothing stoping them from backpedaling and altfireing you point-blank. you take full and the take half.

maybe lower levels of guns should have full or at least 3/4 self damage? ArtifeX?

acdcfanbill

11-07-2002, 06:43 PM

Just my opinion but for realistic guns, if you rocket your own foot, you should take the same amount of damage that anyone you rocket in the foot. :D

zerowingzero

11-07-2002, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by acdcfanbill
Just my opinion but for realistic guns, if you rocket your own foot, you should take the same amount of damage that anyone you rocket in the foot. :D

Agreed. Vanilla 1.04 anyone? (crap it's in Promod also, ah well, at least no speed+absorb)

Lathain Valtiel

11-07-2002, 08:40 PM

The thing is, Push seems to MISS Repeater Secondaries, even with dead on aim... And I agree withb the 'take full damage if you shoot yourself' idea.

As for your strategy ZWZ.. I can't roll, I need a controller to play this game,, not enough buttons.... (I can't use keyboards). I can dodge fairly well, but the splash usually nicks me, and throws me away... Gah.

zerowingzero

11-07-2002, 09:01 PM

heh, i'm using the arrowpad and can find enough buttions to use, you've gotta learn to use the kb if you want to get good at this game, don't see how your controler would have more buttions...

Doctor Shaft

11-07-2002, 10:48 PM

FINALLY, SOME ONE NOTICED THAT GUNS DON'T HURT YOU AS MUCH AS THEY HURT OTHERS.... THIS.... IS.... CRAP.

I'm tired of that myself. Push does work on repeater, just rarely.

My stradegy for fighting repeater (assuming that saber damage is high, rather than meant for nothing but sword fighting).

Force speed, bunny hop, alternate between dodging the shots and charging full speed. Remember, fortunately they can't hop and run backwards as fast as you can go foward, and the running stradegy for gunners against sabers is to just back up and shoot. Force speed and hopping works wonders, hack away. Of course, you need to develop good aim, and predict where they may force jump, speed away, etc., themselves.

Saber throw is quite useless in terms of its use by the way. Yeah, it's good in saber fights becasue with no saber knockaway, it's just an easy, quick power to use. Against gunners, it's useless. I'd like to see something innovative done with it, rather than leave it as the stale and hardly used power that it is.

Also, get rid of that reduced damage crap. Every game seems to have this crap. That's why people are so good with those guns in the first place. It's good at close range for a reason.... they barely get hurt by their own shots. GET RID OF THIS. Force pushing shots is usually not a good idea. You might as well use speed if you're using a lightsaber against guns. This is a itme and time again proven fact in JK2++. Push should only be used like once, and that's if you're trying to retreat or are in a bind. Otherwise, hitting them with their own projectile, except when they are already badly hurt, means little.

Lathain Valtiel

11-08-2002, 12:54 AM

Oh,. I can usually hack someone down with Force Speed and say Yellow in Promod,. but in 1.04 it was a NIGHTMARE. Saber just did not kill em fast enough. I could do it say 1 out of 6 times, and that was on a good day.

Splash almost always nicks me though, Force Speed or no Force Speed... Oh well, need to work on gun dodging, I'm a saberist, even though I COULD use a gun fairly well if I bothered.

And ZWZ, I do fairly well with a controller.. I personally think it allows for more... Hm, I'd say fluid movement. The ONLY essential skill I can't cram in is rolling, but I get by.

On that note, I was WONDERING why me pushing 3 rockets back down the opposition's throat didn't kill them... Now I know.

ArtifeX

11-08-2002, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by zerowingzero
Heh, here are some tips on fighting someone who has a repeater:

1: Never push, too much force, and even if it goes back to them it's only 1/2 damage (test it yourself, all weapons)

2: Throw may seem like a good idea, but no, you can't recharge and you'll never hit your target

3: Never try to attack, just dodge, roll, dodge, untill their out of ammo, or you can pull their weapon. As of now, because of the 1/2 self damage for all weapons, even if you do somehow close the gap between you and your opponent, there is nothing stoping them from backpedaling and altfireing you point-blank. you take full and the take half.

maybe lower levels of guns should have full or at least 3/4 self damage? ArtifeX?
I'm in agreement with both of you on this. There's no logical reason that your own shots should do half damage to you if you shoot yourself in the foot. I think this was just a carry-over from quake 3, where they were concerned about viable rocket-jumping. I don't think that's a concern here anymore. I'll make this 100% self-damage.

Doctor Shaft

11-08-2002, 10:40 AM

Thank you. They don't need rocket/repeater jumps anyway. The common tactic is just to splash the ground underneath your feet. You also witness people firing their golans on the ground and then walking over their own projectiles.

The worst of all is when they use the might golan, and just keep firing. You push enough of their shots to pretty much trap them in their own heavy weaponry, but they can take like four or five of their shots. You of course can only take one or two.

Tell me what the new force power is.

Lathain Valtiel

11-08-2002, 08:02 PM

Agreed, rocket/repeater jumps are utterly useless thanks to one factor.. Force Jump. There's just no point to either in JO. 100% self damage I sa, I'd love to finally be able to waste Merr-Sonners with their own rockets.

ArtifeX

11-09-2002, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
... Tell me what the new force power is.

Honestly, I'd let everybody know what it is, but I haven't coded it yet. I've got all the specifications written out, but it remains to be seen whether the transition to code will go exactly as I plan, so there's a good possibility whatever I told you wouldn't be quite correct.

There's also a second power I'm thinking about, but I've yet to see if it's possible or not. This is one you've seen in the movies, but hasn't been in a jk game yet.

Lathain Valtiel

11-10-2002, 12:24 AM

Can I hazard some guesses? Blaster Bolt Deflection by hands.

zerowingzero

11-10-2002, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by MMXP
Can I hazard some guesses? Blaster Bolt Deflection by hands.

And it's called force "don't attack with the saber out"

Doctor Shaft

11-10-2002, 06:08 PM

Alright, I learn to just be patient and wait for your masterpiece.

Hopefully you can have it done in two weeks or so, or maybe things are harder than you thought. whatever, as long as it comes out the way you intended in the end.

Kainite

11-11-2002, 04:42 AM

Have you guys played the style over substance beta ? Obviously the force foresight is out of the question which makes you dodge all opponents swings, just for the shear annoyance of everyone else slowing down when you turn it on. But, what about ther force safe fall (I think thats what its called) The old spork mod for JK took out all falling damage, this force power doesn't do it to that extreme, but makes you judge when to turn it on, and floats you safely to the ground. Whatcha think ?

ksk h2o

11-11-2002, 04:59 AM

I'd like it to be force-grab-this-medpack-and-beat-you-senseless-with-it... you can replace medpack with bacta, your-gun, this-dude-over-here, or any other object of your liking. :D

perkz

11-13-2002, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

Honestly, I'd let everybody know what it is, but I haven't coded it yet. I've got all the specifications written out, but it remains to be seen whether the transition to code will go exactly as I plan, so there's a good possibility whatever I told you wouldn't be quite correct.

There's also a second power I'm thinking about, but I've yet to see if it's possible or not. This is one you've seen in the movies, but hasn't been in a jk game yet.

MORE force powers?!? ArtifeX - if you keep up with all the new stuff i'm gonna have to buy another keyboard just to be able to map everything in need :p

Oh, and my guess for one of the new force powers is force Throw (old skool JK style, with the jagged pointy rocks too)

ArtifeX

11-13-2002, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by perkz

MORE force powers?!? ArtifeX - if you keep up with all the new stuff i'm gonna have to buy another keyboard just to be able to map everything in need :p

Oh, and my guess for one of the new force powers is force Throw (old skool JK style, with the jagged pointy rocks too)

Hehehehe. Yeah, considering that the new power is going to be a push-and-hold button, some people are going to have to develop yogi-like finger dexterity. :D

The other one I'm considering would be a toggle button.

ArtifeX

11-13-2002, 09:25 AM

Just to let everyone know how things are going:

Lazarous, VeX and I have beta tested the second iteration of the jetpack, and I have to say its turning out really well. So far, the physics, controls, fuel gauge and menu binding has all been coded and is working fine. The balance of fuel to thrust responsiveness seems to be dead-on, so I don't think I'll need much in the way of tweaking there.

We tested it on ctf-bespin, and we found that the jetpack will save you from a fall into the main pit many times, but if you're slow to react or get hit by an especially strong push, you probably won't have enough time to alter your velocity before your fuel runs out.

Next up is adding sound effects, thruster effects and (hopefully) toonces' jetpack model bolted to the back of the player.

Doctor Shaft

11-13-2002, 11:19 AM

Ar....ti....fex.........

I... have... bin..... wachin..... u...... frum..... yor.... bedrum..... windoe............. for....... a ..... munth...... now....... mi..... p.....ashence....... iz..... runnnin.......... thinnnn.........

arti.......fexxxxxssssssss.............. u.... must.... pro.... .vida......... prooooo..... mod..... 3.0..... to........ me........ or.... I..... may...... start...... to................................... combust......... and...... my.... guts...... willl................sppplattter........ on..... yor...... window...................

a....r.......t......i......f......e.......x....... .......

*sPlaT*

DeTRiTiC-iQ

11-13-2002, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by MMXP
Agreed, rocket/repeater jumps are utterly useless thanks to one factor.. Force Jump. There's just no point to either in JO. 100% self damage I sa, I'd love to finally be able to waste Merr-Sonners with their own rockets.

If you weren't completely wrong about rocket/repeater jumps being useless I would agree with you.

ArtifeX

11-13-2002, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Ar....ti....fex.........

I... have... bin..... wachin..... u...... frum..... yor.... bedrum..... windoe............. for....... a ..... munth...... now....... mi..... p.....ashence....... iz..... runnnin.......... thinnnn.........

arti.......fexxxxxssssssss.............. u.... must.... pro.... .vida......... prooooo..... mod..... 3.0..... to........ me........ or.... I..... may...... start...... to................................... combust......... and...... my.... guts...... willl................sppplattter........ on..... yor...... window...................

a....r.......t......i......f......e.......x....... .......

*sPlaT*

ROFL

ArtifeX

11-13-2002, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

If you weren't completely wrong about rocket/repeater jumps being useless I would agree with you.

I can see them being useful for hybrid jedi/gunners, but remember, you'll need level 2 guns minimum to use the alt fire on a weapon. That means you'll lose access to level 3 jump, which gives you twice the height of level 2 jump anyway. If you're a gunner specialist (level 4 guns) then you'll have access to the jetpack (if you buy level 4 gadgets), which will allow you to get just about anywhere.

Of course, the rocket launcher at level 1 will still fire an explosive for a rocket jump, but again, if you've got level 3 jump, why waste the 50 health for an extra few feet of height?

acdcfanbill

11-13-2002, 03:17 PM

dang it, artifex, waiting for v3 is making me all hot and bothered... :p

SPY_jmr1

11-13-2002, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by acdcfanbill
dang it, artifex, waiting for v3 is making me all hot and bothered... :p

yeah, as soon as its out, lets get a forumys only game going....

broadbandbill here can host:D

Toonces

11-13-2002, 04:25 PM

Man, you totally jogged my memory Art, I have to finish up the texture for the Jetpack. I'll send it out to you in a couple days :)

Lathain Valtiel

11-13-2002, 04:28 PM

Can you set i so that the jetpack only appears on SOME models?

Doctor Shaft

11-13-2002, 10:26 PM

*sPlaT* *sPlaT*

Syfo-Dyas

11-14-2002, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

Next up is adding sound effects, thruster effects .

What kind of effects were you thinking of? I'd be happy to do 'em for ya.

ArtifeX

11-14-2002, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas

What kind of effects were you thinking of? I'd be happy to do 'em for ya.

Well, if you'd like to get me some sound effects, that'd be great. I'm after jango's jetpack sound from ep. 2. I imagine that's going to be kinda hard to extract with all the background noise though. Ideally, I'd want the sound to be suitable enough for looping without sounding obvious. Boba's jetpack from ep. 6 would probably work too.

ArtifeX

11-14-2002, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by SPY_jmr1

yeah, as soon as its out, lets get a forumys only game going....

broadbandbill here can host:D

Sounds like a plan. I've got the official server that I can dedicate to a "grand release" party. Once 3.0 is ready to my satisfaction, I'll post a new thread here in the Valley for a time/ip/pw.

I've still got to finish up the cosmetic stuff for the jetpack, and add the new force power, so it'll still be a few days, minimum. The good news is that a bunch of the stuff I figured out while coding the jetpack is pertinent to adding the force power code. That should speed things along.

Syfo-Dyas

11-14-2002, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

Well, if you'd like to get me some sound effects, that'd be great. I'm after jango's jetpack sound from ep. 2. I imagine that's going to be kinda hard to extract with all the background noise though. Ideally, I'd want the sound to be suitable enough for looping without sounding obvious.

It won't be difficult. I'll make it from scratch. It basically sounds like an F-16 jet with some cool sounds layered in for character.

The loop part won't be hard either, but what would really help is if we could do the sound in three parts -just like the saber was done:
1 A launching sound (As in: Turning Saber 'ON' sound)
2 A 'cruise' sound (As in: The saber 'Hum' sound)
3 A shut-down sound (As in: Turning Saber 'OFF sound)

Is this kind of thing possible with the jetpack? It would be very cool if it was.

Lathain Valtiel

11-15-2002, 07:33 AM

Hmm.. I wouldn't be surprised if Arti here could do it.

As for the A-List.. Methinks you should check out the new Han Solo model (And blaster) by Major Clod. It's great looking and has bot support. Very nice.

ArtifeX

11-15-2002, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas

It won't be difficult. I'll make it from scratch. It basically sounds like an F-16 jet with some cool sounds layered in for character.

The loop part won't be hard either, but what would really help is if we could do the sound in three parts -just like the saber was done:
1 A launching sound (As in: Turning Saber 'ON' sound)
2 A 'cruise' sound (As in: The saber 'Hum' sound)
3 A shut-down sound (As in: Turning Saber 'OFF sound)

Is this kind of thing possible with the jetpack? It would be very cool if it was.

Yes, actually. That would be ideal. Go ahead and get me those 3 sounds and I'll put them in to see how it works out. Shouldn't be much more difficult than putting just one sound in.

Syfo-Dyas

11-17-2002, 03:01 AM

OKay ArtifeX, I think I have something that will work well for the jetpack. I'm about 80% done. Sounds like a fighter jet -well, for the most part it is- with engine whine and all that. I still need to clean it up a bit, and reduce the sample rate to something acceptible for game usage.

Basically I wanted to give you an progress update. But I also wanted to know what kind of thrust the JetPack has? Does it catapolt you into the into the air? Or does it work against gravity -thereby making your accent a little slower?

The importants of this has mostly to do with how long my "launch" and "shut-down" samples can be. I'm trying to keep them short, but I need an idea of HOW short?

Depending on if what I have is looking like it will work, I should be able to get the samples out to you Sunday.

ArtifeX

11-17-2002, 08:14 AM

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas
OKay ArtifeX, I think I have something that will work well for the jetpack. I'm about 80% done. Sounds like a fighter jet -well, for the most part it is- with engine whine and all that. I still need to clean it up a bit, and reduce the sample rate to something acceptible for game usage.

Basically I wanted to give you an progress update. But I also wanted to know what kind of thrust the JetPack has? Does it catapolt you into the into the air? Or does it work against gravity -thereby making your accent a little slower?

The importants of this has mostly to do with how long my "launch" and "shut-down" samples can be. I'm trying to keep them short, but I need an idea of HOW short?

Depending on if what I have is looking like it will work, I should be able to get the samples out to you Sunday.

Keep both the start and end sound pretty short. I'd say somewhere between a quarter and a half a second would be all that was needed.

The responsiveness of the thrusters is fairly gradual. If you've played Tribes 2, then you know exactly what the jetpack feels like. Players using it are going to figure out quickly that a jump just before igniting the jetpack is going to help them immensely.

Get those to me ASAP, as I'm at the point where I could definitely add them in.

Toa Tahu

11-20-2002, 01:26 AM

Yeah,about the jetpack sounds,I'd agree with that sound contest.Just change the sound a bit so it doesn't confuse players with the saber being on.

But I have one gripe.No offence,ArtifeX,no offence to anyone,but IMHO I think that to have a force power to even pull the (secodary) trigger would be silly.No jedi ever uses guns,and there is,IMHO,no force power concerning a gun's trigger-pull.And besides,Lv4 guns!No offence,again,but where in the world do you see a Lv4 gun force power!!I know I'll receive a LOT of hate mail for this,but I hope none of you receive any offence,please.

And besides,the Jedi Guardian concentrates more on the saber,not on guns.Anyway,I like the Jetpack idea and the prospects for it.

And,finally,ArtifeX,I hope that you shall put another level for saber force powers.Lv4 Saber Offence would allow you to push harder,and have another stance.(something that has the power of yello and the speed of blue maybe?),Lv 4 saber defense would allow you to defend against rapid-fire guns,IE the repeater.Lv 4 saber throw would let it find enemies to kill(heh,more like a dark side power)

And,I would also like the classic force powers(pull,push) to be upgraded to level 4.Push lv 4 would allow you to create an invisible sphere that would push away anyone in its radius,including repeater shots and rockets.

No offense,just my 2 sen worth,though.

ArtifeX

11-20-2002, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by Toa Tahu
...but IMHO I think that to have a force power to even pull the (secodary) trigger would be silly.No jedi ever uses guns,and there is,IMHO,no force power concerning a gun's trigger-pull.And besides,Lv4 guns!No offence,again,but where in the world do you see a Lv4 gun force power!!I know I'll receive a LOT of hate mail for this,but I hope none of you receive any offence,please.

...

I don't consider the Weapon Skills to be Force Powers. If you take a look at the screenshots at the beginning of this thread, you'll see that what was the "Force" setup screen is now the "Skill" setup screen. Both the Force Powers and the Weapon Skills use up skill points now rather than the old force points. The basis for this is that it takes time and effort to learn to do anything, be it using the force or learning how to use and maintain a mechanical weapon.

Toa Tahu

11-20-2002, 10:15 PM

Ah,I'm sorry.No offense,ArtifeX,but it seems that the game seems to be delving out of the word 'Jedi'.But it's ok,it makes gameplay much more comprehensive,though

Other than that,Promod looks like it's going to be quite good saber mod.Anyway,today I tried protect,but one guy gripped me and then he did damage to me!I was like what the heck?Does protect protects you completely from all those force power again?

Anyway,I heard that ArtifeX is adding saga gameplay to Promod 3.Are you going to?I never heard any mention of it here.But if you are planning to add it,please,if it's a BIG file,please seperate it from the original ProMod,or else we 56kers won't get to download it(those who can play for a time of maybe 45 minutes like me)If it's small,then add it.And,do you think saga will be interesting?

Syfo-Dyas

11-21-2002, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by Toa Tahu
Yeah,about the jetpack sounds,I'd agree with that sound contest.Just change the sound a bit so it doesn't confuse players with the saber being on.

No, it's not the same sound as the saber. I think you misunderstood something I wrote earlier.
It WORKS LIKE the saber. You push a button, and your saber turns on, and it has a special sound, right? And when you are holding your saber that is already on, that has a special sound. And when you turn your saber off, that has a special sound. So that is three different sounds -know what I mean?

So when I was thinking about the sounds for a jetpack, ArtifeX was talking about just one basic sound. I thought it would be cool if it could have a special sound for when the engines ignite, and a special sound for when it's on and you are flying around, and a special sound for when you shut the jet engines down.
So again, three different sounds

I figured it could be done, because the lightsaber already does it. ArtifeX seemed to think it wouldn't be too hard to set up. So that's how the Jetpack works.

But the sounds are not lightsaber sounds. I created new sounds from scratch for the jetpack. My hope is that it will add some excitment to the game, rather than just hearing recycled sounds that are already part of the game.

Hope that cleared up any misunderstandings that anyone might have had.

Kainite

11-21-2002, 04:52 AM

First off I'm a big fan :) and I'm really looking forward to Promod 3. Any even vague ideas on a realse date yet ? Could you update your site as well to say how much you've done and how much you've got left to include, although I understand you're a busy guy. You never know, you could be the first gooseman of JKII :P

(gooseman was the inventor of counterstrike for halflife for anyone who didn't know)

Moradivh

11-21-2002, 11:11 AM

Whelp, last night I got to see the promod jetpack in action for the first time. I suck at using it since I don't have it bound to the right key yet, but the mechanics are great. Artifex kicked the crap out of me with his gunner build, using remotes and turrets to counter my mind tricks, digging in on some small part of the map and setting a horde of explosive traps at every entrance (I won't even mention the medpack incidient... oww). And even without the remotes he always listened for my saber/footsteps/rolls and could usually slaughter my invisible self with heavy weapons. And on the few instances where I got close enough slice at him, his damn jetpack would usually blast him to safety. I'd push him clear off a cliff, and he'd survive falls a Jedi with force jump would die from. It was getting pretty tedious near the end. I'll have to make serious Jedi force adjustments before I try fighting him again... once I master my technique, yeah...

Anyways, I don't think gunners will be disappointed with the new promod.

My one big critique of the jetpack is that it really, really needs some sounds and FX. Without them the effect is just weak. I wasn't even sure Arti was using it at first, till it dawned on me that a lvl4 gunner can't have force jump.

Artifex, I know Syfo-Dyas is working on the sounds, but in the mean time I've made a few temporary ones you can try to use, just till Syfo gets his finished. Didn't take me long with Soundforge and a few Star Wars weapon blasts I downloaded. Granted my sounds aren't the highest quality, but I think they'll be alot better than nothing. Let me know if you're interested and I'll email them.

ArtifeX

11-21-2002, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Kainite
First off I'm a big fan :) and I'm really looking forward to Promod 3. Any even vague ideas on a realse date yet ? Could you update your site as well to say how much you've done and how much you've got left to include, although I understand you're a busy guy. You never know, you could be the first gooseman of JKII :P

(gooseman was the inventor of counterstrike for halflife for anyone who didn't know)

I make frequent updates to my moddb site here:

http://promod.moddb.com/

I can't access my ftp while I'm at work, so I tend to update that site more frequently.

ArtifeX

11-21-2002, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Moradivh
Whelp, last night I got to see the promod jetpack in action for the first time. I suck at using it since I don't have it bound to the right key yet, but the mechanics are great. Artifex kicked the crap out of me with his gunner build, using remotes and turrets to counter my mind tricks, digging in on some small part of the map and setting a horde of explosive traps at every entrance (I won't even mention the medpack incidient... oww). And even without the remotes he always listened for my saber/footsteps/rolls and could usually slaughter my invisible self with heavy weapons. And on the few instances where I got close enough slice at him, his damn jetpack would usually blast him to safety. I'd push him clear off a cliff, and he'd survive falls a Jedi with force jump would die from. It was getting pretty tedious near the end. I'll have to make serious Jedi force adjustments before I try fighting him again... once I master my technique, yeah...

Anyways, I don't think gunners will be disappointed with the new promod.

My one big critique of the jetpack is that it really, really needs some sounds and FX. Without them the effect is just weak. I wasn't even sure Arti was using it at first, till it dawned on me that a lvl4 gunner can't have force jump.

Artifex, I know Syfo-Dyas is working on the sounds, but in the mean time I've made a few temporary ones you can try to use, just till Syfo gets his finished. Didn't take me long with Soundforge and a few Star Wars weapon blasts I downloaded. Granted my sounds aren't the highest quality, but I think they'll be alot better than nothing. Let me know if you're interested and I'll email them.

Sorry, Moradin, but I gotta tell everybody about the medpack incident, as you call it. It's just too freakin funny not to tell!

We were on CTF_Bespin, I was a gunner with level 4 explosives and gadgets skills (among a couple others), and he was a light side Jedi. After fully stocking up on all the different explosives, I ran back to the narrow hallway that looks out to where my team's flag was located, next to the three +25 medpacks. I could hear the distant hum of his lightsaber, and his footsteps, but knew he'd be using mind trick to stay invisible. I quickly placed three detpacks right over the top of each of the medpacks, which were rendered totally invisible. I then turned to face the center of the map, and listened as his saber hum sound got closer and closer behind me.

I can only imagine what a morsel my apparently undefended back must have presented to him. I bet he was feeling mighty bloodthirsty right then. As soon as I thought he was close enough, I ran forward quickly and detonated the packs. BOOM! Dead Moradin! LOL! Moradin's comment was: "What the...?" (or something to that effect)

I don't think I ever laughed that hard playing any game in my life. Not to dis Moradin at all. He really played well, and was starting to figure out workarounds to my tactics when I had to quit.

Moradivh

11-21-2002, 12:27 PM

Bastard... if I knew you woulda made the whole game PUBLIC... and hiding explosives INSIDE medpacks is just evil dude.

Hehehe... though I had my moments of grace too. Like when I killed you in the opposite corridor, that was too perfect... went in with mind trick, turned off my saber to assure stealth. You heard my footsteps and crouched to the floor to try and figure out the direction. Then, RIGHT in front of your field of view I turn visible, my saber ignites and I cut you down in one confident medium swing... it was beautiful, totally Jedi-like, the highpoint of the game for me. :)

The unique tactics needed to survive that game really awed me, like using mind trick to ping your location (it wouldn't turn on unless I fired it in your direction). And I made some nice kills when I pulled your jetpacking self into range of my saber, though you still beat me to a pulp for the most part. It's a testament to your mod that I stuck around that long. 1on1 fights on big maps make incredibly boring games in vanilla.

Anyways, if you're still short on jetpack sounds, lemme know. Mine seem to work fine when looped, and they do sound jetpack-like. I'm not a soundforge pro but they could do the trick, I'm certain.

ArtifeX

11-21-2002, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by Moradivh
Bastard... if I knew you woulda made the whole game PUBLIC...

Hehehe... though I had my moments of grace too. Like when I killed you in the opposite corridor, that was too perfect... went in with mind trick, turned off my saber to assure stealth. You heard my footsteps and crouched to the floor to try and figure out the direction. Then, RIGHT in front of your field of view I turn visible, my saber ignites and I cut you down in one confident medium swing... it was beautiful, totally Jedi-like, the highpoint of the game for me. :)

The unique tactics needed to survive that game really awed me, like using mind trick to ping your location (it wouldn't turn on unless I fired it in your direction). And I made some nice kills when I pulled your jetpacking self into range of my saber, though you still beat me to a pulp for the most part. It's a testament to your mod that I stuck around that long. 1on1 fights on big maps make incredibly boring games in vanilla.

Anyways, if you're still short on jetpack sounds, lemme know. Mine seem to work fine when looped, and they do sound jetpack-like. I'm not a soundforge pro but they could do the trick, I'm certain.

Yeah, we traded some awesome kills last night. Looking forward to another go-'round.

I've actually got a temporary sound built in now that is part of the regular game's sound library. It's sound/effects/flamejet_lp.wav
Seems to work really well, at least until I can get the rest of the code figured out.

DrazMan

11-21-2002, 01:35 PM

Well I haven't really bothered playing JO that much since the server went on lockdown. I'm really hankering to dice again though and it seems no other server is running the mod. Is there any way to gain access to the one on lockdown?

Moradivh

11-21-2002, 02:46 PM

**tries jetpack on server**

Meh, mine sounds way better than that IMO. Made starts and stops, and it's much louder, though not quite as smooth.

Anyways, Syfo's probably about done with his jet sounds, so whatevuh'.

ArtifeX

11-21-2002, 03:23 PM

the sound i'm using now is just a place holder.

One thing to remember though, the jetpack is used quite a bit for short bursts that last less than one second. You don't want to get 4 seconds of sound for a quarter-second burst of thrust.

Moradivh

11-21-2002, 03:56 PM

Thanks, I did think about that. My longest sound is the middle wav, 0.8 seconds. I tried making it shorter but the loop didn't work too well. I would've had to spend several hours searching for shorter references and figuring out soundforge to get it right, so I didn't bother. The start and finish are about 0.5 seconds respectively.

Heh, I can understand how this may be taking Syfo-Dyas a little while. It's harder than I expected, though I'm definitely an amateur. :)

ryudom

11-21-2002, 10:14 PM

Just wondering about saber throw, if anything's going to be done about it. One thing is that the saber is trown incredibly fast, and should really have take twice as long as a normal swing. I don't know if anything can be done or should be done or has been done, so if this is redundant or whatnot just ignore it. It just occured to me today though (because i usually nf duel) how powerfull the pull-throw-kick-throw combo really is.

Syfo-Dyas

11-22-2002, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by Moradivh
Heh, I can understand how this may be taking Syfo-Dyas a little while. It's harder than I expected, though I'm definitely an amateur. :)

Hey! No wonder my ears are buring! People are talk'n 'bout me around here!!! :D

Actually, the samples were completed on Sunday, and I think I emailed them to ArtifeX that same day. But later I realized that they probably wouldn't work since the sample rate wasn't at 44.1khz. So, I resampled them and sent them out to ArtifeX. I'm surprised you didn't hear them, unless maybe ArtifeX is having trouble setting them up or something. But hey... At least you've gotten to see the Jetpack, and play ProMod 3 on a REAL online server with humans and everything! I still here playing ProMod 2 with BOTS. But even BOTs are fun with ProMod! Still, I'm getting itchy to get my ass kicked by real people again!

About your sounds, Moradivh. I'd be interested in hearing what you've come up with. And if your having trouble, I might be able to help you out. I don't work with SoundForge so I don't know if I'd be much help or not. But, two heads are better than one. My rule of thumb is: There is no substitute for hands-on experience. Another is: Something might take you 5 or 7 hours to do the FIRST time, and 5 or 7 minutes the second time. I HATE learning new software, but I find it less frustrating when I EXPECT it to take a long time when there is a learning curve involved.

It's like JO editing/map making. I'd like to tinker with it sometime, but I can't even get Raven's editing software to work right. At some point I just let it go. If I REALLY want to mess with that stuff, then I'll take some time, sit down, and really focus on understanding it. Right now, I have other things that matter more to me.

If you're really wanting to do some sound editing for JO, Moradivh, I can tell an area that could really use some help right now. Cleaning up the samples that people make for the skins/models they release. Most of the time, they just need to have their volume boost 3 or 6db, and maybe boost the treble a little. Other than that, the samples might need to be trimmed a little if they have dead air in them, and they sometimes need to have their MP3 format re-encoded at a greater compression ratio, to reduce the overall size of the file. If you wanted to do that for the skins/models that are going into the ProMod MediaPak 1, I'm sure you wouldn't get an argument from anyone.

Toa Tahu

11-22-2002, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas

No, it's not the same sound as the saber. I think you misunderstood something I wrote earlier.
It WORKS LIKE the saber. You push a button, and your saber turns on, and it has a special sound, right? And when you are holding your saber that is already on, that has a special sound. And when you turn your saber off, that has a special sound. So that is three different sounds -know what I mean?

I know,that's what I meant.I'm sorry,maybe my choice of word made you misunderstand what I wanted to say.Ok?No offence though...

EDIT:Wow.After sifting through all the posts,and seeing ArtifeX's ProMod 3's Beta Test game with Moradivh,I felt so dissappointed that I won't be enjoying this with anyone else save for bots.

Oh yeah,ArtifeX,did you change the scripting for the bots,so that they don't be Jedi and gunner at the same time?For example,the Jedi bots like Luke and Desann.

And,finally,is there a way to have BOTH Jetpack and Jedi Skills at the same time?I'm just curious...

ArtifeX

11-22-2002, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by ryudom
Just wondering about saber throw, if anything's going to be done about it. One thing is that the saber is trown incredibly fast, and should really have take twice as long as a normal swing. I don't know if anything can be done or should be done or has been done, so if this is redundant or whatnot just ignore it. It just occured to me today though (because i usually nf duel) how powerfull the pull-throw-kick-throw combo really is.

In Promod, you can duck to render yourself immune to Pull, so that the pull-throw-kick-throw combo doesn't work on you anymore. :]

ArtifeX

11-22-2002, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by Toa Tahu

I know,that's what I meant.I'm sorry,maybe my choice of word made you misunderstand what I wanted to say.Ok?No offence though...

EDIT:Wow.After sifting through all the posts,and seeing ArtifeX's ProMod 3's Beta Test game with Moradivh,I felt so dissappointed that I won't be enjoying this with anyone else save for bots.

Oh yeah,ArtifeX,did you change the scripting for the bots,so that they don't be Jedi and gunner at the same time?For example,the Jedi bots like Luke and Desann.

And,finally,is there a way to have BOTH Jetpack and Jedi Skills at the same time?I'm just curious...

I haven't altered the bot ai yet. I have tested the bots with the new system and they work fine with a few caveats:

1. Jedi will use guns on you if you're using a gun against them. I'll need to modify this later to keep this from happening.

2. Gunner bots (Lando, etc.) will refrain from using force powers and lightsabers in my experience, regardless of what you use against them.

3. No bots will use the jetpack yet.

4. All bots are assigned level 3 in all weapon skills.

Someone knowledgable might be able to alter the bot behavior files and make it so that the bots won't use guns if they're supposed to be a jedi and vice-versa. If anyone knows how to do this off the top of their head and would like to help me out, then I'd be happy to include the changes in the 3.0 release.

Moradivh

11-22-2002, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas

About your sounds, Moradivh. I'd be interested in hearing what you've come up with. And if your having trouble, I might be able to help you out. I don't work with SoundForge so I don't know if I'd be much help or not. But, two heads are better than one. My rule of thumb is: There is no substitute for hands-on experience. Another is: Something might take you 5 or 7 hours to do the FIRST time, and 5 or 7 minutes the second time. I HATE learning new software, but I find it less frustrating when I EXPECT it to take a long time when there is a learning curve involved. Whelp, I could email them to you or something. I didn't know the required sample rate so they're at 11,025 hz 16-bit stereo, though I could probably change it to anything pretty quick.

As far as I can tell the sounds are solid, very jetpack-like and maybe a bit too loud, though it's hard to be positive with my crackly speakers.

Idunno if I'll get into regular sound editing around here, as I'm busy trying to get a job and making my first 3D demo reel, and promod addiction is time consuming enough as it is. The jetpack was really a "see if I could do it in an hour and make it good" kind of project. But I may consider lending a hand to the media pack in the future if the regular contributors are getting swamped.

Anyways, thanks for the interest. :)

Syfo-Dyas

11-23-2002, 02:44 AM

Originally posted by ArtifeX

I haven't altered the bot ai yet. I have tested the bots with the new system and they work fine:

Someone knowledgable might be able to alter the bot behavior files and make it so that the bots won't use guns if they're supposed to be a jedi and vice-versa. If anyone knows how to do this off the top of their head and would like to help me out, then I'd be happy to include the changes in the 3.0 release.

This is a pretty simple thing to do. It doesn't have any effect on AI, it only balances the BOT's preferences.

Open the PK3 file of your choice, and seek the file with the extension JKB.

Open this file in wordpad and about mid-way down you will see the following:

//Weapons with a weight of 0 will be used in special cases outside of combat

BotWeaponWeights
{
WP_STUN_BATON 1
WP_SABER 16
WP_BRYAR_PISTOL 10
WP_BLASTER 11
WP_DISRUPTOR 12
WP_BOWCASTER 13
WP_REPEATER 14
WP_DEMP2 15
WP_FLECHETTE 17
WP_ROCKET_LAUNCHER 18
WP_THERMAL 9
WP_TRIP_MINE 0
WP_DET_PACK 0
}

The numbers indicate the BOT's desire to use a given weapon. The numbers do not appear to have any restrictions (other than 'zero' having a special function), so I'm guessing that you could go from 1 to 99 and not have problems -though it probably isn't necessary to go to that extreme.

The JKB file above was taken from Luke. In the game, Luke appears to favor the Saber. But you can see above that the Saber is actually his third favorite after the Rocket and Flechette.

It probably makes sense to examine a few JKB files from BOT's you know well, to see how they are set up. It might help take some of the guess work out of assigning new numbers

As a side note: I have altered some of my 'Jedi' BOTs so that they will take advantage of Trip mines and Det Packs. I also sometimes allow them a Bryar Pistol to carry as a sidearm. BOT's aren't known to be too smart, so anything I can do to spice things up is usually worth it.