On the possibilities of an expansion pack:

[ArtifeX]

There's been several threads posted here about expansion packs. Be careful what you wish for.

Point 1: The people who would bring you such an expansion are most likely the same people who brought you such community-destroying products as the 1.03 and 1.04 patches. The developers responsible for these have proven twice that their ideas on game features and balance are not based on their own exhaustive playtesting, but on what they read in these forums, and on emails that they receive from players.

While that may sound good at first glance, consider this: most players that leave feedback in the forums (or send emails to developers) about gameplay do so to voice a complaint. People who are satisified with the same aspect of jk2 will happily go about playing the game for the most part, and remain silent in the forums (if they even see it as necessary to register in the first place). Therefore, if you base your changes to the code too heavily on feedback from forums and email, you end up taking only the opinions of the disgruntled into account, while ignoring those who think the game was fine to begin with, and you end up with a game that makes changes too often and too severely. This is what happened with 1.02 to 1.03.

Solution? The developers should spend their time playing their game rather than reading forum posts and emails. The dev team should become so proficient in playing their game that they should be able to beat the snot out of 99% of the people playing it. It is only when you reach that point that you can see which posts and emails are truely valid, and which are just the voices of players too unfamiliar with the game to grasp it in its entirety.

Had the top competitive ladders been strewn with Raven employees, the 1.03 patch would have been the last.

Point 2: You guys do realize that an expansion pack release that included multiplayer changes would totally screw over any mods on a long term dev cycle, right?

If they release an expansion that was comparable in scope to the changes from Jedi Knight 1 to the "Mystery of the Sith" expansion (which was a big jump), then all mods currently in development would have to be ported to the new codebase in order to support the new functionality. At the very least, all mod teams would have to halt coding until the source code for the expansion was released, or face their mod being seen as feature-poor before it was even complete.

I've got months of work in my mod. So do many others. I doubt any of us would feel too keen about recoding all of our work. I have a feeling that many mod teams that have made significant progress up to this point would simply disintegrate.

There's enough pressure on modders to give up jk2 and move on to a more accessible and mod-friendly engine. The ridiculous lack of the single-player game code and the animation tools are the big ones. The infighting between Raven and Lucasarts is another. Pile on top of that the deafening silence received from Raven or Lucasarts when asking about expansions or sequels and you have a recipe for an imploding game community.

If they do release an expansion, then it had damn well better include every line of source code along with it, and every tool necessary to duplicate all the new features in the old code base with a minimum of work. Otherwise, said expansion would sink 90% of the mods currently being developed.

So ask yourself this before you clamor too loudly for an expansion pack from Lucasarts: which would be better--an expansion pack, or complete disclosure or the source and tools?

End rant. For now.:bot2:

[zerowingzero]

I totaly agree, i've been saying this all along, no matter how much they try, i doubt raven will even get close to fixing and ballanceing the game, it's up to mod makers to do it, and releasing a new patch would slow them down or turn them off.
If developers DO read the forumsm, please NO NEW PATCH!!!

[icefox98]

I've been saying this for a long time too. But people kept saying,"Oh man, I hate light stance, medium, heavy, the swinging of the saber, etc etc,"..... and then we got 1.04.

I dunno...but Raven to me is a glorified Total Conversion mod team...they really never made anything on their own engine...

I really hope they don't come out with an expansion...maybe they should cut their losses, and let the people who know how the game works fix it.

Great job so far on the Pro Mod betas, Artie. :)

(I just wish more servers would run them). =(

-Rosco: The Prince Of Space

[Lazarous]

Hi,

I don't post much on these forums (read: at all) and seldom browse them. However, i try to help out artifex with testing his mod and he pointed me to the entire expansion pack issue.

I have a lot of respect for Art; he single handedly rebuilt the saber combat system from disfigured monstrosity known as 1.03 and 1.04 into a very fun, intuitive and skill-based compeition.


However, i have to disagree with him here.

My reasoning is as follows, and is purely from the perspective of a gamer.

What is the single biggest complaint i have now with the jk2 multiplayer community? Two really: its fragmentation and size. I like promod a lot...i still miss the animations that came with 1.02, but that is beyond art's ability to change without support from raven. The problem lies in the fact that i have to play against bots almost exclusively if i want to play using that mod. There is almost never anyone playing on any of the promod servers that i can find (using qtracker). Promod 3 might fix this if it gets enough publicity, but i fear that the community has passed a point of no return in regards to its playerbase. People who bought the game (and there were many of them, according to sales figures) no longer play the game. In many cases, they no longer check news about the game or really much care what is going on in the community. No matter how good a mod may be (and several out there are of very high quality) there simply arne't enough people playing regularly to create a community where you can quiclkly and easily find a game against other people using one of them.


In this respect, an expansion might give a much needed shot in the arm to jk2 multiplayer, and bring many people who stopped playing the game back.


Now, this brings up the issue of quality and gameplay style. As mentioned before, i find the 1.03 and 1.04 patches gross overreactions to minor gameplay flaws in the original 1.02 system. My complaints with 1.02 could be listed as follows - slightly overpowered drain, slightly overpowered heal, the red dfa kills people while the saber is buried in the ground and blocking is a *little* too weak. Maybe add that push/pull are a touch overpowered, but i was debating this way back when. The patches that were supposed to fix these problems totally destroyed the fun of the game for me, because i could no longer reliably predict when any given attack i made would actually have a chance of hitting the opponent. This brought about a sort of spammish style of play that wasn't fun for me.

Given this, would i trust raven to either a.restore the saber combat to something near its 1.02 level (or promod if they were feeling ambitious) or b.create a new system that isn't too reminiscent of 1.04 and would bring back some of the fun that i find lacking from that iteration? I'd have to answer with a qualified yes. Remember, raven brought the original 1.02 system into being. For all its flaws, the game was damned fun in that iteration. Assuming that raven realizes it made a mistake with 1.03/4, i would give the team the benefit of the doubt that they'd be able to create a fun system (or plagarize someone like art's ideas).

If they do not realize that 1.04 is a problem, my answer would be different.

With respect to the current crop of mods and the possibility of them becoming useless if an expansion came up...i may sound callous, but i would encourage that sort of action if it brought back a fun combat system that most of the people playing used. As a player, being able to find a game with other people under a reasonably good system rather than NOT being able to find ANY games with a well balanced, extensively tested system would be a welcome trade (and yes i realize that all the man hours of work modders put in would be wasted).


So, my opinon, for all that its worth.

Laz

[Toonces]

Well, they could just hire ArtifeX and sit him at a box and say "fix our game please" ;)

Lucas Arts seems to have a rather poor record of support of the mod community, it's unfortunate too because all it is doing is driving modders, and customers away. Their reason for not being more supportive? Your guess is as good as mine, there is no logical reason for this. I agree with you Art when it comes to all the coding work you've already done, if LA/Raven are indeed planning an expansion they really should keep that fact in mind, but I fear that there would be little chance of that since the mod community is but a speck of dust to them, and Raven's hands are tied completely by them.

I would like to see some sort of expansion someday, I just think they did a great job with MotS and think that JO still has an alful lot of "potential" That being said, if LA/Raven gave us a choice, signifigantly expanded SP and Multiplayer tools, (Including the ability to add and modify animations to our hearts content) or an expansion, I would hands down take the tools over the expansion. Some here might think I'm insane but icefox98 makes a good point while I don't completely agree with his statement that Raven is just a glorified mod team, (glorified=lots of coinage) it's pretty much an accurate discription. Expanded tools should be released, there is little danger that one of us is going to make a game better than Raven/LA would, and even if we somehow did, they own the code, they could just pack it up and sell it and make loads of money off of everybody.

Anyway, I didn't mean to rant, but I'm really dissapointed by the lack of support we have received. I'm sure there are some who will say what we have now is enough, the truth is that thoes who beleive that are sadly mistaken and have no real clue what brilliant things the community can come up with the proper support

Anyway, chins up, there is always hope :)

[Raze]

you just talk too much Artifex and most of what you say is just besides the point.. with astonishing regularity ...

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Lazarous
...

If they do not realize that 1.04 is a problem, my answer would be different.

With respect to the current crop of mods and the possibility of them becoming useless if an expansion came up...i may sound callous, but i would encourage that sort of action if it brought back a fun combat system that most of the people playing used. As a player, being able to find a game with other people under a reasonably good system rather than NOT being able to find ANY games with a well balanced, extensively tested system would be a welcome trade (and yes i realize that all the man hours of work modders put in would be wasted)...


The first sentence is the core of my argument. I actually had an email from one of the dev team that said, "[the current gameplay in 1.04] worked just fine for us...". I think that says it all.

As far as trading the current mods for an expansion goes: I think that the community modders/players that have buried themselves in the game for the past several months for no other reason than to improve the game have a much better chance of producing quality multiplayer content than coders that have been working on entirely different projects ever since 1.04 was released. I doubt those same coders have been playing much jk2 lately, either.

[Jolts]

I would say number 1 reason lucas arts isn't more supportive is money. It costs money to be supportive, any time raven sits down to look at jo it costs lucas arts money. They are a cheap company and always will be.

[Syfo-Dyas]

Man, some of the 'Doom & Gloom' I read here is just ridiculous!

The solution to the expasion pack compatability issue is fairly simple: Install JO twice on your hard drive.

I do understand where ArtifeX is coming from though, and it makes sense.
Hey, why don't you post the email you mentioned about 1.04 playing fine for them. I know I'd like to read it!

I could also suggest that if you want Raven or LucasArts to know your feelings, why don't you email them or copy the post and send that to them. Be specific about what you like and don't like, and what you want to see.

I don't think there's any question about an expasion pack coming out, it's just a matter of when.

Don't be too close minded about the developers though. You might find yourself surprised at what they end up releasing! Let's be skeptical, but not cynical about this.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas
Man, some of the 'Doom & Gloom' I read here is just ridiculous!

The solution to the expasion pack compatability issue is fairly simple: Install JO twice on your hard drive.

I do understand where ArtifeX is coming from though, and it makes sense.
Hey, why don't you post the email you mentioned about 1.04 playing fine for them. I know I'd like to read it!

I could also suggest that if you want Raven or LucasArts to know your feelings, why don't you email them or copy the post and send that to them. Be specific about what you like and don't like, and what you want to see.

I don't think there's any question about an expasion pack coming out, it's just a matter of when.

Don't be too close minded about the developers though. You might find yourself surprised at what they end up releasing! Let's be skeptical, but not cynical about this.

I'm not trying to be a nay-sayer here. I'm just trying to let it be known exactly what I'm after: the full toolset. I don't want them messing with the multiplayer aspect of the game--I don't think they have the money/staff or playing experience to do a good job. If they want to release a single-player expansion: fine. Just don't screw with the multiplayer unless you want to release ALL the tools to us!

[Spider AL]

While I'm comfortable playing 1.04, I'd consider certain changes improvements, reversions to 1.02: force power de-nerfing for example. Heal and drain are just silly, as everyone knows. Also, Mind-trick is useless at all levels as long as level-one Force Sight is a universal counter to it.

But, when all's said and done, that's just my opinion. Whatever happens re. an expansion pack, we can be sure of only one thing: Some people will love it, some people will hate it, and most people will love parts of it and hate others.

So the best thing for an expansion would be to introduce new game modes, maybe even add a few powers/weapons if they're feeling brave... but whatever they introduce should be toggleable. MOTS was excellent in one respect- it was separate from JK. One didn't have to play MOTS after buying it if one didn't want to. Because if they re-patch the game with the expansion we'll all have to play the latest version. Unless of course we want to be sad outcasts playing 1.02 or 1.04 on some nowhere server in Bolivia. ;)

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

I had always thought it an established fact that JK had awesome multiplayer add-ons and MOTS had awesome singleplayer add-ons.

I want to see this trend with JK2. An expansion should add new maps (read: A LOT of new maps), maybe a new gametype or 2, but shouldn't alter the fundamentals of the game. However they should feel free to do whatever they want with singleplayer, I just hope they make it more editor-friendly.

I'm also thinking it might be nice if an official "mod" was included that boosted movement dynamics to that of Quake 3, give the game more flow, but only as a mod of course.

[Darth Kaan]

If an expansion pack is released, I agree it should be for single player only.

If it ventures into multi it should be only to add more maps and the SAGA game type, not change anything exhisting and damn sure not take anything away.

I personelly think the spsc has not been released because they know an expansion pack = more $$$$$$$ and that is all gaming companies are concerned with, after all, their in the buisness to make money.

ArtifeX does have valid points about the modders. After all look at what Dest did with Jedimod and what Promod is doing. Stuff that LEC should have had Raven do in the first place, ADD to the game to enhance it and fix the problems, not nerf things and/or take them away.

One thing I learned from the 1.04 patch (remember hardly anyone thought there would be another patch and Arti even retired from the game) is that you never know what they may do and yes....be very careful what you ask for...

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Spider AL
...

But, when all's said and done, that's just my opinion. Whatever happens re. an expansion pack, we can be sure of only one thing: Some people will love it, some people will hate it, and most people will love parts of it and hate others.

So the best thing for an expansion would be to introduce new game modes, maybe even add a few powers/weapons if they're feeling brave... but whatever they introduce should be toggleable. MOTS was excellent in one respect- it was separate from JK. One didn't have to play MOTS after buying it if one didn't want to. Because if they re-patch the game with the expansion we'll all have to play the latest version. Unless of course we want to be sad outcasts playing 1.02 or 1.04 on some nowhere server in Bolivia. ;)

You're right. The best thing to do for an expansion is make it a completely different mod directory, much like Q3 Team Arena was, so that you can switch it on and off like any other mod.

They'd still need to release the tools if they created any new multiplayer content. Otherwise, all of the mods being developed right now would be seen as feature-poor by people who bought the expansion. That's not the way to encourage the mod community to code for your game.

[Darth Kaan]

Why wouldnt they? They released them for multi before...

[FatalStrike]

I dislike the idea of having the gullible boys at Raven make an expansion pack which will no doubt change the game again. I see a list of whining that has come since the last patch that I am sure they will address and then tell us that they were bugs in the first place (i.e. kicks, self-kill, blue lunge, etc.). In the name of "bug fix" and balance they have brought they have starved this community of its greatest players, clans, and servers. A expansion would simply finish us all off and I don't plan on playing with servers full of white names everyday.

Instead of balance they brought us the old "separate but equal" logic that has never worked. They successfully separated gunners and saber users in apparent hopes to satisfy them. Those hopes went out the window and you now have gunners and saber users threatening each other on forums since neither is willing to give an inch.

Well folks many people dislike when I say this but the game is going downhill. It has been for months. The "valley" which used to have so many new post that keeping your thread on the first page for longer then a day was a stroke of luck, now has so few posts that I could start a "just wanted to say hello" thread and it would be on page 1 for the next week.

If you look at loss of active players and servers you can plainly see that after each "patch" you lost a chunk of the community an expansion pack would add a few players for a while but only at the risk of the remaining quality players. No game should force its players to re-learn it every few months.

BTW I agree with spider al on the force power changes, drain and heal are pathetic, and mind trick only works against white names.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Darth Kaan
Why wouldnt they? They released them for multi before...

They didn't release them all. They've still not released the animation tools, which is why no mods have any truly new animations in them. They're not planning to release them, either, just like the SP code.

[Toonces]

That's all we really want too. Give us the tools to import new animations, and just expand the sp editing options, right now true sp support is virtually non existant

[ArtifeX]

As fatal says, the patches have done nothing but punish the community, but there's a point I'd like to add to that. That is, that the people who are being punished the most harshly are the game's most avid, and dedicated fans.

Those of us who have been playing the game since it was released remember how comparitively balanced 1.02 was to its successors, 1.03 and 1.04. People who bought the game after the 1.03 or 1.04 patches don't even know what it was like, and so are more likely to be content with the current official version. Weakened sabers, out-of-control auto-blocking--all of that is par for the course to anyone buying the game mid-summer. To all of us old-schoolers, these patches were a travesty; a disgusting obeisance to the throng of whiners who refused to dedicate the time to learning how to play the game.

So what are we left with? The community is now made up of old-schoolers, such as myself, who are stubbornly hoping the game will be made better through mods, and those new enough to the game to not realize how shallow and broken the multiplayer gameplay is.

This is why Jedi Knight 2 multiplayer is an online revolving door, with gamers dipping their toes for a few weeks and then leaving when they find the temperature not to their liking.

My message to Lucasarts: Give us the tools to make the game what it should be, then either help us promote our mods, or leave us the hell alone.

[FatalStrike]

I brought up these very concerns long time ago and was immediately shot down.

In order to have a successful community you must be able to add players instead of losing them and replacing them. If you go to the most highly populated public servers you constantly find people that are fairly new to the game. Many of the old vets are scattered and nearly extinct. The reason I still play 1.02 is simpley because the average player skill is high and the level of competition is fairly level.

Think of it this way, had raven stuck to fixing bugs and left the game alone the new players would have still come in, and the old players would most likely still be around. That is far better then losing most of your original fan base so that a few whiners would quiet down. Worse yet is that once the damage was done they abandoned the community and refused to give us tools to fix it.

After so many on-line MP success stories and failures you would think the blue print was fairly clear. Raven ignored it and have insulted their own community. I will stick to more experienced companies in the future when I buy computer games.

I hope that the folks at raven read this thread and get angry at all of us "know-it-all's." They have so much programming talent and such little business sense.

[Spider AL]

Hmm. I'm not sure if I'm the only one who finds a lot of bile and venom distasteful, but there it is. I don't think demonising Raven will accomplish anything constructive. Actually I'm quite thankful for a lot of things Raven did. 1.03 was abysmal. 1.04 is an improvement over it, which- I have little doubt- took a lot of effort on the part of Raven's people to bring it forth. Having said that, they were at least partially to blame for the problem in the first place, so the least they could do was fix it. But still, six of one and half-a-dozen of the other dont'cha know.

Where Raven really fell down IMO, was in suffering from the still relatively new disease of game developers: listening to the "community." Unfortunately, the whiners are the only portion of the community that speak up usually. It's happened to a lot of games, a whole list that has already been gone over by myself and others.

Now, it's worth remembering that JO isn't the only game that hasn't become as successful as it perhaps deserved, this year. There are loads. The whole FPS world is going through a bad patch, seemingly. Perhaps because it went through a golden age; the various successes of CS, T2, UT, Q2/3 were quite simply unbelievable. In the tiny space of a few years, online gaming went from being a fringe activity to one of the world's most enjoyed and lucrative enterprises. So nowadays, we all expect games to sweep us off our feet in the same way that CS and UT did. It's not a guaranteed thing though. Who's to say that Quakes, CS and UT weren't one-offs? Maybe nothing will ever match their success.

The real tragedy for me is that I considered JO 1.02 to be a truly world-class game. And I spent the time to become good at it because I believed it could achieve that sort of success.

As a matter of fact, I think 1.04 is a damn great game. Not quite as good, but still truly breathtaking.

I think it deserved better. More success.

But when people state categorically that they know exactly why JO didn't become the next CS, I take it with a pinch of salt. JO's membership could have petered out with or without the patches, and LEC's games have never welcomed the advances of modders. Nobody will ever know what the game would be like if the patches hadn't been released, and assigning blame isn't going to help matters at all, nor will it get anything done that could help the game as it stands now.

[Jolts]

I think the lack of raven support boils down to the fact that they won't touch JO unless they are paid for their time. And now they have new games to work on.

As far as popularity of the game, I personally think if someone did an exact copy of sof2's mp the game might get a portion of the players back. There's just something very addicting about any game with round based objective gameplay...something about watching those last 2 people hunt eachother down or escape with the plans...just my feelings anyways.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

over at the Massassi thinktank we've got one project in planning stages, but we need an expert coder :)

I think the problem with the modding community is the lack of coders. I would be perfectly willing to code a gameplay modfication if I knew where on earth to begin. There are no shortage of tutorials for mapping, modelling and skinning. But tutorials for icarus and actual multiplayer coding are sparse at best, so come on people. If you know how to code, share the secrets.

[Syfo-Dyas]

Originally posted by FatalStrike

Instead of balance they brought us the old "separate but equal" logic that has never worked. and you now have gunners and saber users threatening each other on forums since neither is willing to give an inch.


Oooh! I like the way you've tied Raven's treatment of Guns & Sabers to Southern Racism!!! ;)
You're right, brother -testify!!! When we gonna be able to play this game and NOT be hassled by da man!!!??? :eek:

"This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine"...


Originally posted by FatalStrike
Well folks many people dislike when I say this but the game is going downhill. It has been for months. The "valley" which used to have so many new post that keeping your thread on the first page for longer then a day was a stroke of luck. If you look at loss of active players and servers you can plainly see that after each "patch" you lost a chunk of the community

I don't really agree with that. Not everyone wants to devote their lives to a computer game (the guys at Massassi being the exception :p). I think the main reason for the drop in activity has been school and college resuming a couple of months ago. I noticed a HUGE decline during that time.



One of the things I'm reading here is a lot of 'Us and Them' talk. If you believe that Raven and Lucasarts don't care about what the community thinks, you'd be wrong... I think it matters a great deal to them what WE think. THEY know that nobody knows their games like WE do. THEY know that WE are a huge asset. WE keep these games alive for them!

I was just at Best Buy yesturday and noticed JO being featured on an isle end-cap with a $45 price tag on it. A LOT of games are showing an far more advanced life-cycle 6 months after they're released. I can remember buying games for $40, and seeing them 6 or 7 months later selling for $25. Obviously, they weren't moving too fast at the $40 price point... That's a good sign for JO, and our community. And havn't the Mac and Console versions just been released within the last couple of months??? I think the game is still popular. That HAS to be -at least in part- due to the strong community support it has received.

Back to my original point: I wouldn't be surprised if the developers regularly lurk these forums to get a feel for how things are being accepted. I think it is important, however, for us to make our voices heard by BOTH Lucasarts and Raven. If you want them to know how you feel, you need to tell them. I think a VERY effective way to tell them how WE feel would be by *COLLECTIVELY* sending them an email. Something easy to read, that represents what we all want -or don't want-, and has all of our names (eg signatures) on it.

To do that, we simply need to agree on something and then draft up a document, make whatever revisions are needed, and send it off. This would not be a difficult thing to do, and it's better than sitting around on the forums whining about possible outcomes of expansion packs, or the death of the community.

[Rad Blackrose]

Remember a month or two ago when the Valley was filled with posts along the line of "JKII is dead?" I'm getting bad vibes that this is where everything breaks down. LucasArts is probably one of the most upnosed companies in terms of licensing as well as modification, and this is pure evidence on it. I wouldn't doubt for a second that Raven might go back to look over the patch, see what some modders are producing, and then release the good points and eliminate the bad. It isn't Raven that is holding them back. It is LucasArts.

If I can go fetch it... ahh, damn... lost it. Anyways, it was an issue of Computer Gaming World, the cover story being the return of "Star Wars Gaming." The issue had previews of multiple Star Wars games, including JKII. However, the one thing I did want to cite from it was the interview with the new CEO of LucasArts. It was in this article in which he stated along the lines of: "We want to give gamers the feeling that any LucasArts title they pick up will bring gratification."

So tell me, where is my gratification? Where is my supposed enjoyment of fencing a combatant to the death? I don't find having to use kick or lunge over and over to penetrate an almost impenetrable defense gratifying. I don't find having to roll over the place to an exposed back, only to be defended because of faulty animations gratifying. In CTF, I ESPECIALLY don't enjoy seeing the same two weapons used over and over again while saberists are left in the cold.

Mods out there such as JediMod and ProMod finally strike balance into the coding errors of Raven's part, as well as deliver a slap across LucasArts' face for not taking a nanosecond of the time to realize that there is talent beyond "the best programmers and game designers in the market" (read: another potshot cited from the article). While I honestly do await Knights by the Old Republic (being the Baldur's Gate and NWN fan I am), I am leery in terms of how far LucasArts will allow BioWare to go. I will admit proudly that BioWare has some of the best talent out there, period. However, if LucasArts becomes the old hag who rants on each little detail like Mrs. Atkins in "Beyond the Horizon," KotR is doomed to failure right off the bat.

Perhaps it is time to start giving credit to those who said JKII was dead. They were right after all. If LucasArts and Raven want Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast profitable as well as memorious, then they need to release the code. I'm honestly not sure if they are still hung up on what happened to Quake after the coding was released *cough speed hack cough*, but those days are gone. Look at Counter-Strike. They have endured things like OGC, bad graphics, etc. They still have multiple servers online that have players, unlike the dying JKII player base. It is time both companies took a long look at what CS did for Half-Life and realize that only the modding community keeps a game alive a lot longer.

[Homosexual Ewok]

Did the patches suck?
Yep.
Did the reason we got the patches suck?
Yep.

Did *some of us not give up, deal with the changes made, and continue to prosper?

Yep.


Bring on the expansion, the more new content the better.

As for mods?
Well...

Sorry to say this and it is not meant as a cheap shot, but I think it is kind of selfish for any mod maker to say that new content should be denied to the community just so their mod can be left in it’s current form.

[taboo]

Sorry to say this and it is not meant as a cheap shot, but I think it is kind of selfish for any mod maker to say that new content should be denied to the community just so their mod can be left in it’s current form.

I think you missed the point of the orginal post. If the jk2 multiplayer module is changed in the expansion, it will break and depreciate the current jk2 mods (and those under developement). This will discourage future modding and thereby further hobble the jk2 community. Artifex is therefore asking that the source code to the mp changes be released so that modders can fix and add the new features to their mods. I think that this is a reasonable request.

I guess the best possible scenario would be that Raven fixes the mp component in the expansion and releases the source code. Will this happen? Judging from 1.03 & 1.04, I have my doubts. So, in the meantime, it's ProMod all the way for me.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Perhaps it is time to start giving credit to those who said JKII was dead.

Heh. Maybe it's just because I played JK1 for a long time, but the word "dead" obviously means something completely different to me than it does to you.

iIn my terminology, when it becomes difficult to get a game of JO, the game will be dying. when it becomes virtually impossible, it'll be dead.

As things stand, in Europe there's a choice of 1.04 servers running all the gametypes that regularly have people in 'em. Good people mind you, no slackers. And long may this continue, and long may I be able to play on them.

As I said earlier in the thread, people seem to expect phenomenal success from all their favourite FPS games these days, success comparable to that of CS. Ain't gonna happen, I'm afraid. It's unfortunate, but it hardly means the end of the world.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Homosexual Ewok
...
Sorry to say this and it is not meant as a cheap shot, but I think it is kind of selfish for any mod maker to say that new content should be denied to the community just so their mod can be left in it’s current form.

As mentioned, I think you missed the point of my post.

I'm not wanting to deny everyone new content. I'm just calling for whoever it is that would be developing one (big if) to take the long term community into mind when they do so. I don't want them to damage it further by releasing something in the vein of 1.03 and 1.04. If they're going to do it, do it right, then release all of the tools to us so that we can take our existing codebases and update them. No holding back the animation tools or the single player code.

I don't want another half-ass patch that further fragments the community.

[WarteX]

This was a great thread artifex! and I love ur work on the promod, its wot jk2 MP should have been from the beginning :D

[Homosexual Ewok]

Originally posted by ArtifeX


I don't want another half-ass patch that further fragments the community.

Agreed.
But to be honest, having a box with "Jedi Outcast: The Expansion" (or whatever it will be called) on the shelves at Best Buy is going to bring in a lot more new players than any mod ever could hope to.

A community will die if new players don't come in. There is no way around that.

And lets be completely honest here, 99.99999% of the people who are currently playing this game are not the serious minded "pro/comp" type of players.

How the damage scales and hit detection work mean nothing to them. The most important thing on their minds is when the new Chewbacca skin will be released.

New content = new players.
New players = new life breathed into the community.

Personally, I would much rather see 800 servers full of newbies and a somewhat "flawed" patch than 300 servers that are almost all completely empty most of the time.

I understand the desire for the release of the code/tools, but if it comes at the cost of no more “official” content, then I vote for the pretty cardboard box.

[Toonces]

I think we all would like an expansion, it would breathe new life into a game that I rather enjoy and hate to see slowly dieing. I don't see why we can't have both.

Asking for the SP source is really not quite what we should be asking for, The Quake II source was only released last Christmas, there is no chance that they SP source for Q3a will be released at least until iD is finished with Doom III. What would breathe new life into the community would be if Raven/LA would give us the Tools to expand the Single Player game, and tools to import new animations, I don't think that is too much to ask. I also would like Raven/LA to address this coment from one of the tutorials that came with the SDK

Q: "How difficult will it be to make our own custom animations?"

A: Michael Gummelt, Raven Software "To make new animations, you’d need a copy of SoftImage… we don’t expect that many people have access to that…"

Quite a few people here have access to SoftImage, so their requirement has been met, now according to that statement it's possible, could you please help us Raven?

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas

One of the things I'm reading here is a lot of 'Us and Them' talk. If you believe that Raven and Lucasarts don't care about what the community thinks, you'd be wrong... I think it matters a great deal to them what WE think. THEY know that nobody knows their games like WE do. THEY know that WE are a huge asset. WE keep these games alive for them! [/B]

I agree, there is an alful lot of talk like that, mostly from people who don't truely understand what they are talking about. Raven is a company commited to the mod community, just look at their past releases, SOF, SOF2, ST: Elite Force, Hexen, Heretic, the list could go on and on, all these games have one thing in common, good comunity support. I don't expect Raven to be quite as open as say Epic is, (check out UT2k3 and you'll understand) but they haven't been nearly as open about JKII as they have been with their previous games. Here's where Lucas Arts becomes involved. I don't beleive they hate the mod community either, but I think they don't truely understand how important the mod community is. This game will never be the next Counter Strike, I never thought for a second that it would be, but it could develop into a great game (still) via more support from LA and Raven.

The true litmus test for Lucas Arts is SW:Knights of the Old Republic. For those who don't know, BioWare is developing it, and they have a extremely solid track record for community and mod support, all you have to do is take a look at Neverwinter Nights and see how commited they are to continueing their games success via the mod community. If that game ships without extensive moding tools, or they never become available via a download shortly after the game comes out, then Lucas Arts will have failed my litmus test, and truely dissapoint me, and thousands of others who will buy their game. I truely hope they do not tie the hands of BioWare like I beleive they may have with Raven

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas

To do that, we simply need to agree on something and then draft up a document, make whatever revisions are needed, and send it off. This would not be a difficult thing to do, and it's better than sitting around on the forums whining about possible outcomes of expansion packs, or the death of the community. [/B]

This is an extremely good idea, I just wish we could know for sure that they would read it and react to it. By reaction I mean an official responce, positive or negative, not just being ignored. I have a contact with Lucas Arts, I am actually under a NDA with them for reasons I cannot discuss, but if we can draft up something reasonable and well written, I will get it to him, and try and get it to Raven. This is a great idea Syfo, now all we have to do is draft the document right and hopefully we can get them to listen :)

Anyway, sorry for making you all read all this speil, but I feel passionate about this :) Hopefully we can get something done

[Rad Blackrose]

Originally posted by Spider AL


Heh. Maybe it's just because I played JK1 for a long time, but the word "dead" obviously means something completely different to me than it does to you.

iIn my terminology, when it becomes difficult to get a game of JO, the game will be dying. when it becomes virtually impossible, it'll be dead.

As things stand, in Europe there's a choice of 1.04 servers running all the gametypes that regularly have people in 'em. Good people mind you, no slackers. And long may this continue, and long may I be able to play on them.

As I said earlier in the thread, people seem to expect phenomenal success from all their favourite FPS games these days, success comparable to that of CS. Ain't gonna happen, I'm afraid. It's unfortunate, but it hardly means the end of the world.

Team Fortress player since the beginning of time, especially when there was only one prime server left before I headed out for Counter-Strike and wound up at Counter-Strike Radio, formerly Mega Team Fortress Radio.

Oh, and excuse me for a second... *taps Beyond the Horizon and KotR comparison* This goes far beyond just standard first person shooters, such as Counter-Strike. LucasArts is the anal retentive old man who does not want to see the younger generations have things they did not *cough Door County, Wisconsin cough*. There are three things I find to be the center of ANY game:

1.) Play/Replay value

2.) Storyline *Single player only*

3.) All the other crap.

I wouldn't give two s***s and a f*** if an old game had the lamest graphics or the worst sound in the world. But if the gameplay is riviting enough, or the storyline gets me hooked, that automatically kills criterion 3 tenfold. Glitz and glamour is the style of the gaming programmers today. We used to have games where if your reflexes were not fast enough, you were toast. Knowledge was power. I will be honest. I have been gaming since I was 7 years old. That is ten years (almost 11) of my life as to where I could have been some place else. My first computer I ever touched was a Commodore 64, and by god I am still addicted to Wizard (read: Yes, I have an emulator installed).

The old games were able to live up to their hype because they weren't outdoing each other in terms of graphics or sound. I mean, what good is the most beautiful game with lifelike sounds, if the gameplay mechanics blow goats? I almost 100% guarantee that if Raven releases an expansion pack, it will be for one of two reasons, in which the latter would be the more likely solution:

1.) Raven wants to address all core problems of the combat aspect and provide a fresh new storyline without LucasArts' incessant bitching.

or

2.) LucasArts is yanking Raven's chain for more money, forcing them to produce a sub-par product that screws up everything. The expansion is so bad, that the lightsaber is replaced with a riot baton and all guns have been reduced to NERF guns.

While I would love to see option one happen, it would be surely a snowball's chance in hell in order of it to happen. Like I stated earlier, it isn't Raven that is the problem; it's LucasArts. Eliminate LucasArts, and we can have the code as well as an expansion that everyone can agree on.

And I agree on another part: Next time some whiners start coming around denouncing some attack because they can't avoid it, then we nail his ass tenfold.

[Darth Kaan]

Originally posted by ArtifeX


They didn't release them all. They've still not released the animation tools, which is why no mods have any truly new animations in them. They're not planning to release them, either, just like the SP code.

That makes sense to me if they are indeed planning on an expansion pack.

[Syfo-Dyas]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Perhaps it is time to start giving credit to those who said JKII was dead. They were right after all.
:violin:
Oh, man I think I'm gonna...

YUP, I gonna haveta puke!





:barf: BLEEEWWWWWWWWWW!!!!! :barf2:



:bored: ughhhh, I'm okay now... :rolleye1: No, wait, not done yet...



:barf: mmmmBLAaahhhhh!!!:barf2:

Pleeeezzz, pleeeezzz, no more!!! :(



Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Like I stated earlier, it isn't Raven that is the problem; it's LucasArts. Eliminate LucasArts, and we can have the code as well as an expansion that everyone can agree on.

Wow! These are certainly some wild allegations you're throwing around as if they were gospel...
This is HOW rumors get started...
Some guy invents this stuff in his head, and then starts spouting off like he'd just got off the phone with George Lucas himself!

Unless you *KNOW* these things, please don't talk about them as though they were true. I'll gladly support your right to be critical of Raven, or Lucasarts, or JO, or whatever. The bit you wrote about "Where's my gradification", was well put -I'm glad you said that.

But some of this other crap your writing, it just got's ta go! It accomplishes nothing. It defocuses our little 'Think Tank' discussion here. It's just a bunch of reactionary pessimism.

Please stop, and work toward something constructive.

[Jolts]

How do you figure it's not lucas arts thats the problem? I'm not saying they are, and I'm not saying they're not. They own JO, they hired raven to make JO for them. They paid raven to make patches and updates. Lucas Arts has complete control over media that is released for the game, patches that are released for the game and anything else.

If you look at what raven has done for sof2 and what raven has done for JO you see a huge difference. New maps and weapons in every patch for sof2, only 1 update for jo came with 1 completely new map, and a few sections of older maps from sp.

I'm guessing a small company like raven depends on the sales of their own orginal game a lot more than a larger company like lucas arts who can dish out game after game thats sucks and generates medium sales and not really be effected too much. LEC has a lot backing from other companies and can afford failure after failure with maybe one medium sized hit title for each year. Thats the way I see at least.

[Spider AL]

While I agree that LEC could do more to make its games successful, I consider the endless reactionary and grossly bile-filled comments, tantamount to claims that LEC's executives are Space-Demons from the planet Xrzx, to be non-productive. LEC is a business, it's a big business. Big business is interested in making big wodges of cash, not in providing a high-quality service. Demonising them is silly though, they cannot escape their own nature. They are what they are.

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
I mean, what good is the most beautiful game with lifelike sounds, if the gameplay mechanics blow goats?

An absolutely valid point, Rad. But such concerns as the quality of gameplay are subjective. I consider JO to have exceedingly good gameplay. You on the other hand,.. are entitled to your opinion.

Many people labour under the misconception that the opinion of the majority should be catered to. This is a fallacy. The vast majority of people in the world are foolish by nature. In the past, there have been majorities that:

[list=a]
Thought the Earth was flat.
Thought the Earth was the centre of the universe
Thought that animals have no sense of pain
Thought the Amiga was better than the Atari
[/list=a]

Also, the opinion of a self-proclaimed majority should be mistrusted by everyone, because the vocal majority is usually both ignorant and self-serving.

So when I say that the only real mistake Raven made was to listen to a self-interested vocal majority of fanboys, it doesn't really matter whether LEC egged them on to do so or not, does it? The mistake was made, the patch released... and even though a lot of us agree that 1.03 was a mistake, shouldn't have been released as early on as it was, ought to have been tested more fully etc...

Even though we think that, there are still people who play 1.03 in preference to either 1.02 or 1.04.

Subjective, see?

Poor Raven. Can anyone blame them for not being involved in the JO community? Since the moment 1.03 was released people have been calling them every name under the sun. I have no doubt they tried to please the community. That's the real lesson to be learned I think, make your game, and then sit back. Bugfix, yes. Gameplay patch, NO. You may want to please everyone, but you can't. Nobody can, and you'll only annoy everyone if you try.

It's unfortunate that JO wasn't more successful, yes. But nobody can pin down the precise, exact, incontrivertible reason why it wasn't more successful. Anyone who claims to is kidding themselves as well as everyone else.

Because it's not just JO. As stated earlier, the whole online gaming community is going through a lull. And nobody can say for sure why this is.

I know why I think it is. I think it's because the games released these days have no soul. They're like McDonalds' happy-meals. All packaging and seasoning, no real meat.

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
We used to have games where if your reflexes were not fast enough, you were toast. Knowledge was power. I will be honest. I have been gaming since I was 7 years old. That is ten years (almost 11) of my life as to where I could have been some place else. My first computer I ever touched was a Commodore 64, and by god I am still addicted to Wizard

Mmkay, mate, I have no idea why you felt the need to wheel out your computing credentials... You really don't need to. They don't add any weight to your argument and your opinion would be just as valid if you'd started gaming last week. Of course, some of us started jumping on the home-computing bandwagon a mite earlier than you, I recall many a bleak day in the early '80s when I whiled away the rainy hours playing "The King" and "Touchstone" on my Dragon 32. Don't mention "Pong" though. Ever.

[ArtifeX]

Regardless of who is in control, or what mistakes have been made with the patches, there is still a chance for LA/Raven to make this game what it should have been.

1. Release the entire toolset.
2. Have a developer able to answer modding questions in less than 2 weeks.
3. If an expansion is released, gather up all of the best community-made addons and put them on the cd.
4. Don't muck with multiplayer unless current mods can duplicate the new features.
5. Have the developers master playing the game.

[Spider AL]

Tee hee! Your first four suggestions seem very mod-maker-friendly Arti, though I'm not sure how they would increase JO's successfulness in either the pro-gaming community or increase the numbers of players playing the game worldwide... Possibly they would increase the successfulness of mod-makers... :D

Your last suggestion is extremely unlikely to be followed, I have to say. Takes time and effort to master the game, and Raven personnel have full-time dev jobs to do as well... Nor does mastery of the game automatically provide one with the wisdom to effect good game-balance. As much as I'd love to create a game to suit my own advanced style of play, I have to grudgingly admit that there are many less experienced people who have as much right to play the game they want, as I do.

I'd welcome any expansion personally, as I agree with those who say that any new JO fare that appears in shops can only enliven our community.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Spider AL
Tee hee! Your first four suggestions seem very mod-maker-friendly Arti, though I'm not sure how they would increase JO's successfulness in either the pro-gaming community or increase the numbers of players playing the game worldwide... Possibly they would increase the successfulness of mod-makers... :D

All fps's that have stood the test of time have done so on the quality of their mods. People play the vanilla, official version of the game, get bored with it, and either quit or go looking for a mod. If the quality of the mods can be kept high, then those players will stick with the game longer, and will tell others about them. That equals a larger, more involved community.

Half-life is the ultimate example of this. UT and Quake 3 are others.

Your last suggestion is extremely unlikely to be followed, I have to say. Takes time and effort to master the game, and Raven personnel have full-time dev jobs to do as well... Nor does mastery of the game automatically provide one with the wisdom to effect good game-balance. As much as I'd love to create a game to suit my own advanced style of play, I have to grudgingly admit that there are many less experienced people who have as much right to play the game they want, as I do.
When trying to balance a game, you have to do one of two things: experience the game in its entirety for yourself by actually playing it often, or have someone whose opinion you trust gain the experience for you, and offer their advice. Of these two, the first is preferable, because you are getting first hand information. Is it practical? In dev shops with a definite deliverable date, probably not. They'll have to rely on a combination of the two. Where Raven screwed up is that they used perfect strangers (the forum-goers and emails) as their advisors. They should have asked some hardcore gamers to closed-beta test it for them.

This is another argument to support my stand on LA/Raven not altering the multiplayer balance. Modders actually can afford to play the game themselves. They don't have any publisher looking over their shoulder saying, "Is it done yet? Is it done yet?" They also tend to care enough about the end product to assure that this is done properly. The fact that they have spent so much of their time working on a mod for no other return than their personal satisfaction is evidence of that.

Making the game balanced at advanced levels does not preclude it being accessible to new players. I'm not advocating a difficult game, just a deep one.

I'd welcome any expansion personally, as I agree with those who say that any new JO fare that appears in shops can only enliven our community.
Yes, it would bring players in the short term, but if the gameplay remains broken, it will be only the short term, unless those players are exposed to mods that improve upon that gameplay.

[WillyWonka]

I was hoping for some real news on an expansion pack. Instead I get a lot of ruffled feathers over its merit.

*sigh*

I never post on these forums but this topic finally dragged me out of the shadows, to play with the philosophical gamers. heh.

Its obvious to anyone that artifex is correct, yes I know that is a bold statement but I will make it non-the-less. What many of you are not taking into account is simple really. A bad game does not last long in fact, it dies out quickly. If an expansion is released that makes the MP of this game any worse, it will only serve to expedite this game’s unfortunate demise. Thusly boxes in the store will not in anyway help any of us if it is done in the same fashion as previous game changes.

All MP games have their fate in the hands of the Mod designers that toil for the rest of us gamers (and a large dose of credit) free of charge. If Raven or Lucas or who ever the heck you all wish to blame, does not assist these few inspired members of our shrinking community, they will no doubt leave. When they are gone so are our servers, the players, and your precious forums.

I am surprised that all of you aren’t joining Artifex in demanding decent support from a company we all keep in business. I noticed one of you mentioned “big business” and that they only care for profit. You sir (or madam) are correct, profit is the key. Now did you want me to tell you who provides the profit for these companies? I think you see where I am going with this…..

Also I would like to tell Artifex that I have played ProMod B2 and found it to be much better then standard 1.04, however it does need to be cleaned up a bit. Keep up the good work, while some of these people don’t recognize your importance, there are many of us that do. Thanks for your effort and hard work.

That is all; please continue with your routine

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Artifex
All fps's that have stood the test of time have done so on the quality of their mods.

Ahh but we obviously measure the success of an FPS in different ways. While you're perfectly entitled to your love of mods, I love different things, notably the utter mastery of the vanilla game. Thus are tournaments played for the games you mentioned, UT, Q3, etc. If the vanilla game is not beloved, it doesn't get played, as in the case of vanilla Half-Life. Only the mods are exceptional, and it's worth noting that the most successful, most admirable mods didn't attempt to "perfect" the vanilla game, but instead were a game unto themselves, as in CS, TFC etc. Completely new dynamic.

So really, while you use HL as an example of how beneficial mods are, the real benefit of the mods made for HL... have been for the mods themselves. HL is not a big success as a game because of its mods. CS fanatics don't play vanilla HL, and while the popularity of CS may cause sales of the HL CD to go up and further line valve's pockets, CS hasn't caused the numbers of people playing vanilla HL to go up proportionately. I love JO itself, and so mods are all irrelevant to me. What care I- a player- for the fact that the engine is malleable?

So the point of all this is: We all want something different from an expansion, right? You're a modder, and so you're interested in the expansion's effect on modders. I'm a vanilla player, and so my interest is in how many players that expansion will attract to the vanilla game, and how it will affect vanilla multiplayer. So here lies the rub, if an expansion is released that pleases me, it might not please you. If it pleases you, it might not please me. If we're very lucky of course, it might please both of us, but there will ALWAYS be someone that an expansion displeases. But let's be realistic here, JO is not a huge world-changing game. If an expansion is released, despite all the prophecies of doom and gloom that litter this thread, it will indeed cause an infusion of players. It may change the gameplay for the worse leaving me high and dry, it may stuff up the mod-making attempts of yourself and others, but it will add players to the community. I consider the risk to be worth the possible gain...

But I still say it would be better if the expansion was a completely separate entity, as MOTS was to JK.

Originally posted by Artifex
When trying to balance a game, you have to do one of two things: experience the game in its entirety for yourself by actually playing it often, or have someone whose opinion you trust gain the experience for you, and offer their advice.

I'm sorry, but that seems to me to be an oversimplification. Being experienced at the game does not give one an innate understanding of "balance." Far from it, if the advanced JO players of the world were allowed to mould the game into what they desire, god knows what hellish game they'd come up with... Rage-afficionados would beef up the dark side, Absorbers would beef up the light side... People become experts because they're willing to adapt to the game. Newcomers just want something that appeals to them from the word go. Experts want challenges, newbies want fun. And every person, EVERY person seems to have a different opinion of what would "improve gameplay."

Balancing gameplay is quite possibly the most nebulous, most baffling task one can undertake in the struggle to create a good game. As one gentleman said earlier in the thread, gameplay matters more than graphics, more than sound, it's the most important element of any game... So what makes most games fail? Logically since all other concerns are secondary, it must be because of gameplay flaws.

Let's take Half-Life vanilla MP as an example again. Relatively poor gameplay. Uninspiring. CS succeeds instantly, peerless great gameplay is the reason. Same engine, after all. It's the same for so many other games, a lot of people at this time are quite disgusted at the uninspiring gameplay of UT2k3. What makes the gameplay of CS better than the gameplay of HLV? Many people have an opinion, but nobody will ever know for sure.

Tried and tested companies are producing games this year that simply don't cut it. This is a testament to the unpredictability of gameplay balancing attempts.

And finally, there's the perrennial concern, that of pleasing most of the people most of the time. A mod that pleases CTFers may not please FFAers. A mod that pleases sabreists may not please gunners. Frankly I'm of the belief that the game as a whole can never be balanced. It may be possible to improve the gameplay of CTF through a mod, it may be possible to improve FFA... but improve every mode with a single mod? Very tough. Veeery tough. That would take a lot of time, and many many releases.

Originally posted by Artifex
Making the game balanced at advanced levels does not preclude it being accessible to new players.

Indeed not, but to achieve that sort of balance intentionally is difficult in the extreme.

One must ask the question "What does an expert want from the game?" If I were to answer for myself, I might say... I want sabre damage to be heavier, I'd like rockets to move a touch faster, I'd like Force Sight to be level-by-level comparable with Mind-Trick, I'd like the Tenloss to use up a touch less ammo, I'd like speed to eat mana in the manner of absorb rather than take a big bite all at once, I'd like Drain to be more powerful and I'd like Heal to be more powerful.

But who can say what effect those changes might have on the community if they were to be irrevocably applied to JO vanilla, in the manner of a patch? It might be a lot of fun for me simply because I've learned to use everything quickly and efficiently, but the newbies might hate it. Everyone but me might hate it.

Detritic popped in last month with the idea that the Tenloss should be able to disintegrate sabreists facing the sniper, if a small target below the blocking range of the sword, like the foot of the target, was hit. This would be great for experienced snipers, but it wouldn't be so great for newbies who have enough trouble avoiding sniper shots as it is. This is the problem: Advanced players want different things from a game than newcomers do, and it's hard enough to stumble onto a gameplay balance that appeals to both, never mind intentionally creating one.

Now you, Artifex, could if you so desired release a new version of Promod every month, each month with a few minor changes. You could gauge it's appeal to the masses over the course of a year or two, and at the end of that time you might have a mod that a high proportion of players in all modes approve of, and a mod that appeals to newcomers just as easily... But Raven don't quite have that luxury, I doubt whether they'll ever be able to release another patch without bundling it in with an expansion, which is why they may do so.

Originally posted by Artifex
Yes, it would bring players in the short term, but if the gameplay remains broken, it will be only the short term, unless those players are exposed to mods that improve upon that gameplay.

Improve is a subjective term, Arti. If a mod existed that was... potent enough to draw players to the game, a "CS of JO" so to speak, I doubt that it would bear much resemblance to JO Vanilla. Seven different types of Half-Life Deathmatch mods would have done little to keep the game popular. Only through complete departures like TFC or CS were HL CD sales boosted, and as I have said previously, CS and TFC did not save HL as an online game, they merely used its engine. For those that enjoyed HL itself, there was a very short, rather bleak future.

Therefore, short-term or not, I consider an influx of players into the JO vanilla community to be a positive thing, because there will always be a certain proportion of those new players that grow to love the game, and stick around long after everyone else has left. That means that I, and people of my ilk, will be able to find games and play games much longer than we could otherwise. Hence my assertion that the risk is worth the payoff.

[Jolts]

On a side note of the possibilities of an expansion and what I would like to see...

Improved physics. Give me ragdoll physics, give me code that supports vehicles

update that rendering engine, pixel shading, bump mapping...

improve the animation system

multiplayer only, I would rather have them focus on one type of gameplay than divide half the time into sp/mp. But thats just my own selfish thing. Face it,who cares about the rest of you? its all about me.

To me expansion doesn't have to stick to the things that other companies have done in the past. Try something new.

[WillyWonka]

I'm sorry, but that seems to me to be an oversimplification. Being experienced at the game does not give one an innate understanding of "balance."

Correct. However not knowing how to play makes achieving "balance" impossible. A poor player that made changes to the game would drop the learning curve and reduce a games replay value.

Also you people are speaking of wants and ignoring reality. Reality is that this game is going downhill, this must be addressed before either of you can go off on the "this is what I want" tangent.

An expansion pack would be great if and only "if" it changed this game either back to its original formula, which worked, or to a better formula which hopefully would work just as well. In its current form it won't matter if you give the expantion away since most of the new players won't stay with it long and many of the old players would leave because of the sudden drop in competition.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by WillyWonka:
However not knowing how to play makes achieving "balance" impossible. A poor player that made changes to the game would drop the learning curve and reduce a games replay value.

I don't think that the level at which people play a game affects their knowledge of what they enjoy about it, nor does it affect their right to continue to enjoy the aspects of the game they already enjoy. As for poor players' right to make changes,.. It depends on your perspective. What does one consider "poor?" Anyone worse than oneself? That sort of definition is unacceptable and jingoistic.

For example, if I were to say to myself "I've been playing this game since the day before its release, I have a 97.4% victory ratio in total, two out of three duel tournaments under my belt and a maximum FFA kills-per-minute rate of 20... I am therefore qualified to decide what changes need to be made to make this a better game," I'd be a completely megalomaniacal fool. The fact that a person has played a game religiously for a period of months simply does not qualify them to decide what sort of game the rest of the community will be playing for the foreseeable future.

You may ask: "Who is qualified then, if not the experts?" Well in my considered opinion, nobody is. I think a lot of the problems in the gaming world over the past few years have owed something to the fact that game companies relentlessly tweak their products with gameplay-altering patches. I believe that a game should be made, and then left alone to find its natural position in the gaming world.

Of course, that's probably not going to happen, because not only do people demand these gameplay tweaks, companies now use such patches to try to improve the mass-appeal of their games, hence bolstering their sales.

Originally posted by WillyWonka:
you people are speaking of wants and ignoring reality.

You say this, but something you said in your previous post is truly ignoring reality:

Originally posted by WillyWonka:
one of you mentioned “big business” and that they only care for profit. You sir (or madam) are correct, profit is the key. Now did you want me to tell you who provides the profit for these companies?

In fact, this borders on the naive. We, a small group of JO players, mean almost nothing to LEC. They have a sizeable and untouchable market out there, the Star Wars fans. No other company can release SW games, and even if we knew before we bought JO what we know now, I have little doubt that most of us would buy the game anyway, just for the SP and the poor, ephemeral MP experience.

Really, it's important to realize that LEC have NEVER had a good customer satisfaction record, they've never been accomodating to modders or editors. While people are starting to become dissillusioned with LEC now, the sales for their next game will no doubt be healthy.

Yes, what you say SHOULD be correct, we SHOULD have the power and the motivation to force big businesses to produce higher-quality products, but the reality is that we do not. Those who see a problem are a small minority. Those who have the inclination and the energy to lobby for that problem to be fixed are an even smaller sub-group, and therefore our voice is a tiny tiny whisper amidst the din.

If anyone believes for a moment that we as consumers have the power to engender a negative impact on LEC's market, think again. I foresee it'll be at least a few years and several duff games from now before Lucasfans stop buying their products en masse. ;)

This does not mean we shouldn't try, of course. It's important that we at least start the snowball rolling down the hill... But it's equally important that we be realistic. It's unlikely that LEC are interested in listening to us at this point.

Originally posted by WillyWonka:
this game is going downhill, this must be addressed before either of you can go off on the "this is what I want" tangent.

My friend, I have tried my best to convey throughout this thread the important notion that what we want as individuals is subjective, personal to each of us and, perhaps most importantly, unlikely to happen. It's unlikely that an expansion would cater to either dedicated vanilla players, or dedicated modders. It's more likely that it would cater to LEC's pocket, and have one positive effect, that of injecting a certain amount of new blood into JO's tired veins.

As for what I personally want, I'd like any expansion released to be a seperate entity from JO, as MOTS was to JK. Who knows whether that will come about? Not I.

[Jolts]

The way I like to think of lucas arts...

They have contracted out their games to other game developers, but would another game developer ever contract out a game to lucas arts because of their quality reputation and top notch game engines?

maybe since they are a publishing house also you can't think of it that way, but I still do.

[zerowingzero]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you Al, i thing that pro players would have a better oppinion about the game then others.

I'm not saying those that are better in the game can make decisions, i'm saying they are probably the ones that know the game inside and out, if not the most. They would be a better consultant about ammo usage for a certain gun as they would have tested everything out.

Now i see your point that some might be selfish and have horrible suggestions, but through your logic even the ones that know the most about that game's oppinions are no greater than the casual fan or average player. you don't see a flaw in that argument?

[Lathain Valtiel]

I'm not sure there ZWZ.. Spider_AL has a bit of a point there. If the game was catered to the will of the 'pros', the newbies would be left in the dust... Said newbies wouldn't bother playing to become pros themselves methinks.

Plus, the term pro is actually an opinion... How does one define pro-ness? Where's the threshold?

Err.. I'm going opff on a tangent here. I'm basically saying that if this game was molded to the wishes of the 'elite', newbies would be turned off to the game, and there would just be less players.

One thing bothers me though.. If we thus listen to oeople new to the game, we'd lose the elite.. (Read: Look at 1.04).

So my question is, where do we strike a balance?

(End ramble)

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by zerowingzero:
through your logic even the ones that know the most about that game's oppinions are no greater than the casual fan or average player. you don't see a flaw in that argument?

Well ZWZ, in answer to that, I can only give the IQ test example... It's been postulated by various people in recent years that people who score high in IQ tests are not necessarily more intelligent than people who score lower then them. In lieu of this idea, it's been postulated that scoring high in IQ tests... means that one is good at IQ tests. Nothing more.

Likewise it could be surmised that if one is good at the game, one kills a lot of people, or is an excellent duellist, or can cap a flag like nobody's business,.. one is good at those things. Nothing more.

I've taken a particular path towards my own skill level. I've actually used principles from classical eastern strategy works to supplement my development of an intuitive, innate strategy.

How sad am I? :D

On the other hand, I've played eleven year olds who can't form a sentence, who scream "LOLOLOL" after every kill and who lose more unpleasantly than an alligator on acid, who were actually very skilled opponents. I mean, these guys think Musashi is a chinese seafood dish.

One doesn't have to be clever to be good at JO. One doesn't have to be male, one doesn't have to be a certain age. One doesn't have to be a pleasant person to be elite, none of these things are necessary.

All you need to be good at JO, is an ability to learn to be good at JO.

So why should the leets have the right to decide how a game ends up? We hardly ever agree about anything, 75% of us are evil-minded vindictive swines with all the charm of a dead ****roach and by and large we don't care what other players think of the game, as long as we win it.

I'm frankly sick and tired of kids with six months' experience of a game looking down on kids with one month's experience. It's ludicrous, we're all here for the same reason, to have fun. In my opinion, nobody has the right to take other peoples' fun away, and so nobody, not leets, not game developers, nobody, should alter the gameplay of a game after its release. That's what mods are for.

Ahh, I pine for the days when one could read a magazine review of a game, wait two months, buy the game, and expect it to be the same game the magazine reviewed.

But no longer. Sadness.

Originally posted by MMXP:
So my question is, where do we strike a balance?

Well that's a difficult, difficult question MM. I wish I knew the answer. I'd be rich then. I'd be the next Peter Molyneaux. But I'm only a lowly Spider. My only attempt at an answer to that question is:

When a game's released, leave the gameplay be. If it has the balance, it'll become popular and stay popular. If not, bleh, it will fizzle and die, and no harm done.

Maybe JO would have fizzled even if 1.03 had never been released. But we'll never know, and we'll always wonder what might have been.

But hey, there are still some good lads playing the game (here in Europe, at the very least) so let's look on the bright side.

[zerowingzero]

There was a point i forgot to convey, i didnt mean that EVERY pro player can make better decisions and EVERY pro player knows the game to it's fullest, but i would have to say that a good ladder goer might have tested every aspect of the game first, and worked with diff gun combo's so see what worked and didnt.

Comparing to someone who just uses any gun they find, or uses the same strat for every situation, i would say they would have a better oppinion, not the RIGHT oppinion on how to ballance the game. Preferably, i would want someone who tested every aspect of the game making and informed decision, not the person who can score the most in ffa's or whatever.

[Moradivh]

I didn't read every word on this thread, so if I say something redundant feel free to ignore my entire post (like you wouldn't without my permission :))

To start, I'd like to say that ArtifeX's mod is the best thing that could've happened to this community, short of world peace and the ultimate Chewbacca skin.

But Arti, let's be fair to Raven here: their vanilla JK2 is probably the most sophisticated online swordfighting game on the internet today. Doesn't say much, but considering that multiplay wasn't even the main focus of JK2's design, I think Raven did pretty good.

Now, ProMod is picking up where Raven left off, turning JK2 into a deep, long-living competative Star Wars extravaganza. I've been wanting to play something like that for years, so I'm very happy. And I pray for the day that I find a ProMod server that's perpetually full. Hopefully all the new features coming in version 3 will help.

But Promod was made by people with a lot of free time. JK2 wasn't sold as an online-only game like Quake 3 Arena, and it wasn't intended to be the next Counter-Strike. JK2 was a great sequel with a decent singleplayer story and some sweet Jedi moves, as well as a strong multiplayer component (see above: best swordfighting online), which is more than can be said for most games.

It's not productive to point fingers at Raven or Lucasarts. I'm clueless as to why they didn't provide the animation code, but no matter how many rumors we hear about the company's internal workings, we don't really know what's going on. And most of us can't speculate, since we don't have much experience working at a game company.

Making games ain't easy. To quote a developer: "Everyone always thinks they can do it better. It is very important to remember that your predeccessor made a decision and that decision most likely resulted in a shipped product. Do not discount the power of a decision that actually solved a problem. Just because it is not optimal doesn't make the decision a bad one." -(Mark Dochtermann, fall 2002 Game Career Guide magazine)

But I agree with your most recent stance, Artifex: the best thing that can come out of this thread now is a very large plea for the animation code, as well as increased support for modders in the event of patches/expansion patcks. But I heartily suggest you discard your bitter feelings towards the developers. It just makes you appear unreasonable.

Oh, and Spider AL, to my memory all of Peter Molyneaux's most recent games had even crappier multiplayer than Jedi Knight 2, so if you ever figure out the secret to "ultimate game balance in 5 minutes," let Pete know. :)


- Blind Moradin, always lurking...

[Rad Blackrose]

If anyone believes for a moment that we as consumers have the power to engender a negative impact on LEC's market, think again. I foresee it'll be at least a few years and several duff games from now before Lucasfans stop buying their products en masse.

...or another bad movie. ;)

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by zerowingzero:
Preferably, i would want someone who tested every aspect of the game making and informed decision, not the person who can score the most in ffa's or whatever.

Well that's fine, but there's no way to separate the people who would make an informed decision based on all the facts, from the rest of the leets. How could one do that? It would end up being a nazi thing, with a group of beta testers picked because they agree with the general concensus, or the company line, or perhaps on grounds of age or professional success. There is no "right" decision, only an opinion that other groups of people happen to agree with at the time.

The more I think about this, the more it seems to me that patching a game's gameplay after its release is like trying to genetically engineer the perfect farm-animal after it's been born. Any attempt to manipulate its DNA post-gestation would just end up in horrible mutations.

Game developers IMO, should do all their manipulation before a game is born, and let it develop naturally after birth. ;)

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose:
...or another bad movie.

Precisely.

In fact, the only way the next film could possibly make up for the sins of Lucas and his progeny, would be if it was entitled:

Star Wars: Episode III - The Mutilation of Ambassador Binks. :D

[WillyWonka]

Originally posted by Spider AL

I don't think that the level at which people play a game affects their knowledge of what they enjoy about it, nor does it affect their right to continue to enjoy the aspects of the game they already enjoy. As for poor players' right to make changes,.. It depends on your perspective. What does one consider "poor?" Anyone worse than oneself? That sort of definition is unacceptable and jingoistic.


I am sorry but when did I write that being good would allow you to create worthwhile game changes? I agreed with you point but added that not knowing the game well would make quality game changes impossible. Thus your diatribe on definitions and how good you are meaningless.

If you for example are a poor player you would have thought "Heal" and "Drain" were almost insurmountable in the games original version. However a quality player knew that was an incorrect analysis.

My point is that in order to judge if something is a bug one must be able to play "well." Otherwise what you may end up attempting to fix is not a flaw in the code, but a flaw in your ability as a player.



In fact, this borders on the naive. We, a small group of JO players, mean almost nothing to LEC. They have a sizeable and untouchable market out there, the Star Wars fans. No other company can release SW games, and even if we knew before we bought JO what we know now, I have little doubt that most of us would buy the game anyway, just for the SP and the poor, ephemeral MP experience.


Do not forget that this community that you believe means so little, did in fact shape the changes of the JKII MP game. It appears that this small community has gotten more attention then you may think.

Precisely.

In fact, the only way the next film could possibly make up for the sins of Lucas and his progeny, would be if it was entitled:

Star Wars: Episode III - The Mutilation of Ambassador Binks.

heh. Its sad but the kids out there think of these new movies as equals to the original. Poor youth of today.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Spider AL

...HL is not a big success as a game because of its mods. CS fanatics don't play vanilla HL, and while the popularity of CS may cause sales of the HL CD to go up and further line valve's pockets, CS hasn't caused the numbers of people playing vanilla HL to go up proportionately. I love JO itself, and so mods are all irrelevant to me. What care I- a player- for the fact that the engine is malleable?

I have to 100% disagree here. Halflife would have long since faded into obscurity if not for Counterstrike, Day of Defeat, TF Classic, and Firearms. The fact that you can buy Halflife and be able to play all of those for free is a massive bonus for shelling out the cash. You can only play through SP Halflife so many times, and the MP, as you said, is totally uninspiring.

So the point of all this is: We all want something different from an expansion, right? You're a modder, and so you're interested in the expansion's effect on modders....It may change the gameplay for the worse leaving me high and dry, it may stuff up the mod-making attempts of yourself and others, but it will add players to the community. I consider the risk to be worth the possible gain...

Awesome mods will also add many players to the pool. Making such mods is dependent on LA/Raven's willingness to release all of the tools. If they release an expansion pack with great features that cannot be duplicated in the existing mods, then those mods will die a quick death. Doing things to deliberately hamper mods will only damage the player base.

I'm sorry, but that seems to me to be an oversimplification. Being experienced at the game does not give one an innate understanding of "balance." Far from it, if the advanced JO players of the world were allowed to mould the game into what they desire, god knows what hellish game they'd come up with... Rage-afficionados would beef up the dark side, Absorbers would beef up the light side... People become experts because they're willing to adapt to the game. Newcomers just want something that appeals to them from the word go. Experts want challenges, newbies want fun. And every person, EVERY person seems to have a different opinion of what would "improve gameplay."

While being highly skilled at a game may not necessarily give you the ability to know what "balanced" is, not being skilled absolutely precludes it. You must know the game from every angle, and must be as familiar with all the major strategies if you intend to balance the game. If you are only familiar with 50% of the tactics in a game, and make an attempt to balance what you are familiar with, then you are doing so at the risk of unbalancing that other 50%.

This is exactly what happened with 1.03. Raven was totally ignorant of the effectiveness of the backstabs/sweeps in combination with Push/Pull, and attempted to balance the game by nerfing normal saber damage, and other things. That part that they had no familiarity with was totally ignored. Had they had more experience playing the game at a high skill level online, they would have recognized that flaw very quickly.

...
And finally, there's the perrennial concern, that of pleasing most of the people most of the time...
[size]
"Most" of the people aren't experts at the game. If you attempt to balance the game according to "most" people's feedback, then you will get conflicting suggestions and complaints, with an occasional consensus on very obvious flaws. Whenever you are new to a multiplayer game, many things will seem out of balance, because you aren't familiar with their counters yet. As you do become experienced, the game, if designed properly, should seem to become more and more balanced.

Remember that only very few people send in feedback. The majority of players never say a word.
[size=1]
...
Improve is a subjective term, Arti. If a mod existed that was... potent enough to draw players to the game, a "CS of JO" so to speak, I doubt that it would bear much resemblance to JO Vanilla. Seven different types of Half-Life Deathmatch mods would have done little to keep the game popular. Only through complete departures like TFC or CS were HL CD sales boosted, and as I have said previously, CS and TFC did not save HL as an online game, they merely used its engine. For those that enjoyed HL itself, there was a very short, rather bleak future.

The mods that you're speaking of would be impossible to create with the current tools released by LA/Raven. Without them, there will be no, "CS of JO".

Therefore, short-term or not, I consider an influx of players into the JO vanilla community to be a positive thing, because there will always be a certain proportion of those new players that grow to love the game, and stick around long after everyone else has left. That means that I, and people of my ilk, will be able to find games and play games much longer than we could otherwise. Hence my assertion that the risk is worth the payoff.
You're assuming that an expansion would be a positive influence on the multiplayer scene. I have no doubt that a SP expansion would be a great draw, but based on past experience I have little faith in their ability to alter the MP in a positive way.

Also, as you say, you're a fan of the vanilla version, and you want an expansion to the MP that you're comfortable with. Creating such an expansion without releasing the full toolset used to make it would leave all the people who like playing mods rather than the vanilla version out in the cold. People who gnash their teeth at all of the glaring flaws of the vanilla version have to rely on mods to make the game fun for them. If all the new players are just playing some expansion pack that has some neat new features, but fixes none of the problems, then the player base for the mods will suffer, and collapse.

So, LA/Raven has a choice before them:

1. Release an expansion that tries to be all things to all people (which you said yourself is extremely difficult and time consuming, and which they have an extremely poor record for), and not release the tools.

2. Release an expansion pack that increases the visibility of the game by adding new features, and also releasing the tools so that modders can adopt, and continue to expand on, these features.

I can't believe that anyone given the choice would opt for #1.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Spider AL


I don't think that the level at which people play a game affects their knowledge of what they enjoy about it, nor does it affect their right to continue to enjoy the aspects of the game they already enjoy. As for poor players' right to make changes,.. It depends on your perspective. What does one consider "poor?" Anyone worse than oneself? That sort of definition is unacceptable and jingoistic.

For example, if I were to say to myself "I've been playing this game since the day before its release, I have a 97.4% victory ratio in total, two out of three duel tournaments under my belt and a maximum FFA kills-per-minute rate of 20... I am therefore qualified to decide what changes need to be made to make this a better game," I'd be a completely megalomaniacal fool. The fact that a person has played a game religiously for a period of months simply does not qualify them to decide what sort of game the rest of the community will be playing for the foreseeable future.

You may ask: "Who is qualified then, if not the experts?" Well in my considered opinion, nobody is. I think a lot of the problems in the gaming world over the past few years have owed something to the fact that game companies relentlessly tweak their products with gameplay-altering patches. I believe that a game should be made, and then left alone to find its natural position in the gaming world.

What is important here is that the "experts" are more qualified than those who are not experts. Someone who has invested the time to learn the game, and learn it well, is imminently more qualified than someone who has played it only casually. To think otherwise is folly.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Spider AL

...
Likewise it could be surmised that if one is good at the game, one kills a lot of people, or is an excellent duellist, or can cap a flag like nobody's business,.. one is good at those things. Nothing more.
...


I wouldn't consider someone whose skills are so overbalanced towards a single focus a good candidate as a game balance advisor, except in their own area of expertise.

If they were an expert duellist, then they might be able to expose some balance flaw such as, "I can use this one saber swing to break through defenses and hit twice every time from X range." A casual gamer would never notice anything like it. An observervation like that only comes through great experience. The casual gamer that you are so worried about would never notice the difference if that was fixed, but experts certainly would.

In general, minor changes are not a big deal to beginners, but they are a big deal to experts. Likewise, most of the flaws in jk2 aren't readily apparent to a casual player, but are glaringly obvious to an expert. Altering these problems to achieve game balance for the experts will not affect the experience at all for a casual player! They most likely won't even realize there has been a change!

Granted, ProMod goes much farther than small changes. That's because jk2 has some very bad flaws that are apparent after even a short MP session. The uselessness of the saber in CTF comes to mind. This is why I'm pushing so hard to have ProMod replace the vanilla version: newbies are coming into MP with expections (such as the usefulness of the saber) and are being badly disappointed. The further you get into the gameplay, the more disappointed with it you get. Most new saber enthusiasts are resigning themselves to being banished to duel and saber-only servers to enjoy themselves.

This is not how it should be! This is not how it was intended to be! LucasArts will not fix it. Raven will not fix it. That leaves modders. Me. I am going to fix it. If LA/Raven isn't going to help, then give me the rest of the tools, get the fu** out of the way, and keep your half-ass patches to yourself.

I'm going to go have something very alcoholic now.

[Lazarous]

This is not how it should be! This is not how it was intended to be! LucasArts will not fix it. Raven will not fix it. That leaves modders. Me. I am going to fix it. If LA/Raven isn't going to help, then give me the rest of the tools, get the fu** out of the way, and keep your half-ass patches to yourself.

*hands art something very alcoholic and then gets out of his way*

[FatalStrike]

Hello I am back from my 24 hour ban!

I see arti is going insane with this odd topic but I agree with him.

The 1.04 saber v guns is just silly. 1.02 sabers had a disadvantage to guns, but 1.04 made the gap too wide.

The spirit of the game at the beginning was that you could use sabers against guns to limited success. SP even seemed to be designed around this concept.

Then came the whining. This is too strong that is too strong blah blah. Now we have a train wreck and the folks that drove it off its tracks refuse to fix, and worse yet, they refuse to give our moders the tools to fix it.

Then again I play 1.02 and laugh at you fools that followed the whiners path to "balance" Muhahahahah

laters!

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by Lazarous


*hands art something very alcoholic and then gets out of his way*

*notices lazarous distracted and swings saber at his back*

*still loses in the end*

*joins arti for a drink*

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by WillyWonka:
I am sorry but when did I write that being good would allow you to create worthwhile game changes? I agreed with you point but added that not knowing the game well would make quality game changes impossible. Thus your diatribe on definitions and how good you are meaningless.

Ahem. Firstly, my "diatribe" was a response to your statement that:

Originally posted by WillyWonka:
not knowing how to play makes achieving "balance" impossible. A poor player that made changes to the game would drop the learning curve and reduce a games replay value.

And my response boiled down to the idea that while people who have been playing for a longer time than others may consider their point of view to be more valid than the point of view of others who have not, it's really just arrogant presumption to do so. What is a game for? To engender that most insubstantial, indefinable quality of "fun" in the player.

So what must a game be, to be successful? It must be fun. In other words, its gameplay must be fun and well-balanced. When people suggest changes to the game, they are looking only at, and caring only for, their own sense of fun. This is not a flaw in their characters, because we can ONLY judge by our own experiences. But it does mean that any changes made to the game will displease another group of players somewhere.

My argument is this: That no group of players (whether they be a majority or a skilled minority) has the right to make decisions that could irrevocably alter the gameplay, taking the fun away from another group.

THAT, is what mods are for. The game should have been completely left alone after release. No gameplay-changing patches... AT ALL.

Originally posted by WillyWonka:
If you for example are a poor player you would have thought "Heal" and "Drain" were almost insurmountable in the games original version. However a quality player knew that was an incorrect analysis.

Ah, so you believe the opinion that most of the skilled and experienced players held about Heal and Drain before the release of 1.03 was "correct" and the opinion that other players held was "incorrect." Well, from your perspective, possibly, and from mine, definitely.

But some people found the game more fun after the unjustified nerfing of Heal and Drain.

So was the nerfing bad, or good?

Here's the answer: It was both bad and good. It was bad for us and all the others who felt it spoiled the game, and it was GOOD for those who felt that Heal and Drain spoiled the game.

You can call them what you will, newbies, fools, short-sighted buffoons... but that doesn't alter the fact that they had an opinion, and their opinion was as important to them as ours is to us, and hence it was valid.

The concept I'm trying to convey is that fun is subjective. One cannot say "this is fun, and that is not." You can only say "I find this fun, and I find that not-fun."

So the best thing for the game would have been if it was left completely alone after release, with no gameplay changes, so that it could find its natural place in the gaming world.

Originally posted by WillyWonka:
My point is that in order to judge if something is a bug one must be able to play "well." Otherwise what you may end up attempting to fix is not a flaw in the code, but a flaw in your ability as a player.

There is nowhere to draw the line. Many experienced players felt, and still feel that the light lunge hovering bug was in fact, not a bug or a flaw. I and other experienced players feel that it was obviously a bug and a flaw. In my opinion, it was absolutely undeniably silly to be able to slow a fall to a crawl simply by poking one's sabre about.

So who is to say which opinion is "correct?" That is my point. Nobody can say, and nobody has the right to change the game to conform to their opinions, even if they are in a majority. Thus games should never have gameplay-altering patches.

I hope I'm making my ideas clear, it's difficult with a relative, subjective principle like this...

Originally posted by WillyWonka:
Do not forget that this community that you believe means so little,

My friend, you must either read my posts with a touch more care, or form your own posts with more care, to avoid typing misleading statements like this.

I stated that I believe this community means little to Lucasarts. That line makes it sound as if the community means little to me, which is unacceptable; the community is important to me.

As for the amount of impact this community has had on the game, that is more Raven's doing than the community's. Raven took notice of the posts of a vocal majority when they made 1.03. They took notice of the posts of the disgruntled remainder, when they released 1.04. In both cases it was Raven's decision to listen. Therefore they had the power. We cannot TELL Raven what to do, we can ask, and they may see fit to grant us our requests. We do not have the power.

But LEC has even more power than Raven. They can tell RAVEN what to do when it comes to JO, and they certainly don't care about what we think of them, nor do they care what we say about them.

Now do you see what I was saying? This community is not high on LEC's list of "things to listen to whether it suits us or not." I hope this clarifies my statement.

Originally posted by Artifex:
Halflife would have long since faded into obscurity if not for Counterstrike, Day of Defeat, TF Classic, and Firearms. The fact that you can buy Halflife and be able to play all of those for free is a massive bonus for shelling out the cash. You can only play through SP Halflife so many times, and the MP, as you said, is totally uninspiring.

I'm afraid you missed my point. Half-Life HAS faded into obscurity, in that- as you say- very few people want to play HL vanilla multiplayer. I am a JO vanilla player. So as I said before, what do mods matter to me, or those like me? What would it matter if the JO CD was in every household... if nobody played vanilla anymore.

Originally posted by Artifex:
Awesome mods will also add many players to the pool

No, they will add many players to the modded servers. They will not assist the life-support of JO vanilla, which as I stated before, is my primary concern.

Originally posted by Artifex:
While being highly skilled at a game may not necessarily give you the ability to know what "balanced" is, not being skilled absolutely precludes it.

As I said above in reply to Willy, even if that statement was true, who is to decide what "skilled" means? Who will pick which "skilled" players have the intelligence to make informed balance-choices? You?

Well that's fine when you're working on your own mod, your mod belongs to you... I don't think anyone has the right to decide how to alter JO itself post-release though. 1.02 should have been left in peace...

Originally posted by Artifex:
Also, as you say, you're a fan of the vanilla version, and you want an expansion to the MP that you're comfortable with. Creating such an expansion without releasing the full toolset used to make it would leave all the people who like playing mods rather than the vanilla version out in the cold.

Which may happen, sadly. Or it could happen that vanilla fans are the ones disadvantaged by a patch. Both possibilities are unpleasant.

Which is why I still say the best expansion would be a separate entity from JO, as MOTS was separate from JK. That is the third possibility you didn't mention in your post.

However much we try though, by signing petitions, or mailing LEC or Raven... we must face the possibility that an expansion could be released which would shatter my group, your group, a different group, or ALL groups at once. Thus faced with a choice, I say that an expansion would still be worth the risk, because since the numbers of people playing JO is already declining, and as you say you and other modders are currently unable to produce really world-changing mods, what exactly do we have to lose, other than maybe a few months playing time?

Originally posted by Artifex:
In general, minor changes are not a big deal to beginners, but they are a big deal to experts. Likewise, most of the flaws in jk2 aren't readily apparent to a casual player, but are glaringly obvious to an expert. Altering these problems to achieve game balance for the experts will not affect the experience at all for a casual player! They most likely won't even realize there has been a change!

Well, who can say what effect a minor change may have? That's the idea I tried to convey to Detritic when he suggested that one should be able to hit someone in the foot with the tenloss even when they're facing you, sabre drawn. Initially, such a change WOULD be minor. But give it a month, and we experts would be hitting people in the foot nine times out of ten. There would no longer be any defence against the tenloss, and it would be the dominant weapon because of its long range. Beginners would probably hate such a situation.

Now, I agree that some changes would be minor enough for the beginners not to feel the effect... but one cannot know what effect a change will have unless it is implemented. So suppose you sit and think for months about what minor changes to make to JO vanilla, and at the end of this time, you make the changes, and release them as 1.05.

You wouldn't know the effects of those changes until maybe a month, two months later. What then? Make another patch? 1.06? What effect will 1.06 changes have? One can release many such tweaked versions of a mod, but one cannot do so for the main game. Some people found it hard to keep up with HL patches, for example, and they weren't overly common.

It's a slippery slope.

Originally posted by Artifex:
jk2 has some very bad flaws that are apparent after even a short MP session. The uselessness of the saber in CTF comes to mind.

Oho. Well, you may consider them to be flaws my friend, but don't be too quick to demand their removal. Even the removal of a hideous flaw like the 'blue lunge hover' p**ses some people off. One man's strafe-jump is another man's bunnyhop. Do those who dislike guns have the right to remove all guns everywhere so that they can play on every JO server in the world without meeting a gunner?

Nope.

Originally posted by Artifex:
The further you get into the gameplay, the more disappointed with it you get.

Hm, this may be true for you and many others Arti, but it is not true for everyone.

Originally posted by Artifex:
This is not how it should be! This is not how it was intended to be! LucasArts will not fix it. Raven will not fix it. That leaves modders. Me. I am going to fix it.

Eep. Hide the silver, Matron. :D

Now, I feel it's important that you acknowledge the fact that, while JO may not be what you thought it was intended it to be, this does not mean that JO vanilla should be altered to accomodate your expectations. That's what mods are for, and that's what you're doing a great job of in promod. Replace JO vanilla though? Hmm, sounds a little authoritarian to me.

Originally posted by Artifex:
What is important here is that the "experts" are more qualified than those who are not experts. Someone who has invested the time to learn the game, and learn it well, is imminently more qualified than someone who has played it only casually.

I've explained above my reasons for saying that this is not so, but they're worth a recap:

Firstly, who will define who is an expert? Secondly, who will decide which "experts" possess the intelligence to make an informed and logical choice? Finally, since not all suggestions made by these "experts" will work together in harmony, who will be appointed to choose which of the suggestions will be implemented?

Me? You? Gonkh8er? Detritic_IQ?

Frankly I don't think anyone has the right to claim kingship of the realm of JO vanilla gameplay. Sure, I'd like changes made. And yes, I've been playing longer than most, and I've won more than most. But I know deep down that any attempt to force my opinions onto others would be arrogant and fascist.

You are currently doing your good work in the creation of Promod, which is your idea (and many people's idea) of improvement on vanilla JO. And good luck to you, and may Promod achieve success. But it's your mod, and so you get to make the decisions. But can any of us claim that JO vanilla is ours alone? No... Not even Raven can claim that, because from the second it hit store shelves, it belonged to the people who bought it as well.

Thus nobody has a right to decide what should be changed about JO's gameplay.

Originally posted by Artifex:
To think otherwise is folly.

Mm. You're entitled to think that.

[Lathain Valtiel]

*Chuckles at Fatal, knowing tht it's true, gotta give Laz creds for being a damn good player. Tosses a bottle at Artife's drunken head... Said bottle happens to be pure, 100% ethyl alcohol, but what you don't know can't hurt you... (It can only kill you)*

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Spider AL
My argument is this: That no group of players (whether they be a majority or a skilled minority) has the right to make decisions that could irrevocably alter the gameplay, taking the fun away from another group.

THAT, is what mods are for. The game should have been completely left alone after release. No gameplay-changing patches... AT ALL.
Actually, the dev team has this right. It's their work, their vision. If they don't like it, they can change it, and community be damned. I don't think its wise to deliberately piss off your customers, but that is their right.

...
So the best thing for the game would have been if it was left completely alone after release, with no gameplay changes, so that it could find its natural place in the gaming world.

Gameplay imbalances are bad. They make people quit the game. Developers don't want people quitting their game. They sell less copies when that happens because the quitters tell their friends bad things about that game. To avoid this, they patch the game. Hopefully, the game is better afterwards. Your assertion that no game should ever have its play altered after release is an extremely bad game development decision.

So who is to say which opinion is "correct?" That is my point. Nobody can say, and nobody has the right to change the game to conform to their opinions, even if they are in a majority. Thus games should never have gameplay-altering patches.

Ideally, the developers should have played their game enough to know what needs fixing long before it is published. After it has been released, they should keep playing it to reveal any minor gameplay changes that need to be made for optimum balance.

I'm sure you will argue that no one knows what "optimum balance" is. Please go here: http://www.oculis.org/asc and read my two strategy guides. That is the kind of depth that I am talking about is required to know when something is balanced or not. With the amount of research there, I can with 99% certainty say things like, "Tactic w beats tactic x. Tactic x beats tactic y. Tactic y beats tactic w. Tactic z has no counter, therefore tactic z is overpowered."

Every tactic should have a counter. If there is no counter, then the game is imbalanced and needs to be adjusted. This is not subjective. This is not an opinion. This is researched and backed up by quantitative data.

If one tactic has no counter, then all other tactics are inferior, and will not be used except by those who are unaware of their inferiority. I won two tournaments in 1.02 using tactics with no counter.


...
I'm afraid you missed my point. Half-Life HAS faded into obscurity, in that- as you say- very few people want to play HL vanilla multiplayer. I am a JO vanilla player. So as I said before, what do mods matter to me, or those like me? What would it matter if the JO CD was in every household... if nobody played vanilla anymore.

Vanilla Halflife is inferior to its mods, therefore it is not played as much as its mods. Jk2 vanilla will be inferior to its mods eventually. It will be played less than its mods. Mods continue to grow; the vanilla game does not. An expansion will alter this if it increments the version number to 1.05. If the tools used to make the expansion are not released, then mods will be seen as inferior to the expanded vanilla game. The mods will be played less; the vanilla game played more. If gameplay flaws still remain in the expanded version, then we will get a further split of the community, with less people playing mods and less people playing any vanilla version.

I think there will be flaws, and lots of them. The patches stand as a testament to this. How will you enjoy your vanilla version when the community is so fragmented that its hard to find a server running the version you like that is actually populated?

No, they will add many players to the modded servers. They will not assist the life-support of JO vanilla, which as I stated before, is my primary concern.

Again, you are assuming that the expansion will have a positive influence ("life-support").

As I said above in reply to Willy, even if that statement was true, who is to decide what "skilled" means? Who will pick which "skilled" players have the intelligence to make informed balance-choices? You?

The developers will. They are the ones ultimately responsible for the state of the game. They are the ones who must decide which feedback to listen to, whether it be from someone "skilled" or "experienced" or completely new to the game.

They've botched it thus far. 1.03 and 1.04 are evidence of that. Yes, I know you like 1.04 just fine, but there are bugs and gameplay flaws in 1.04. You cannot deny them. They are not subjective. They are fact. You can swing a saber at someone from directly behind and have their saber magically block your strike while your saber cleaves directly through your back. This is not an opinion. This is reproduceable; verifiable. Anyone, regardless of experience, can be shown that this is a problem.

By your philosophy, this should be regarded as part of the game and never changed. Folly.

Well that's fine when you're working on your own mod, your mod belongs to you... I don't think anyone has the right to decide how to alter JO itself post-release though. 1.02 should have been left in peace...

Same response as above.

Which may happen, sadly. Or it could happen that vanilla fans are the ones disadvantaged by a patch. Both possibilities are unpleasant.

Which is why I still say the best expansion would be a separate entity from JO, as MOTS was separate from JK. That is the third possibility you didn't mention in your post.

Such a release, if it had expanded multiplayer features, would still cause mods to be seen as feature-poor if they could not duplicate popular new functionality.

...
You wouldn't know the effects of those changes until maybe a month, two months later. What then? Make another patch? 1.06? What effect will 1.06 changes have? One can release many such tweaked versions of a mod, but one cannot do so for the main game. Some people found it hard to keep up with HL patches, for example, and they weren't overly common.

I don't think your example is sound. Hitting someone in the foot with a charged tenloss shot consistently while they are on the run, jumping and flipping would be nearly impossible, even for a sharpshooter. But I understand what you are trying to say.

You are also assuming that the dev team did a poor job of testing before release. Something this obvious should be picked up before the public ever gets it.

Oho. Well, you may consider them to be flaws my friend, but don't be too quick to demand their removal. Even the removal of a hideous flaw like the 'blue lunge hover' p**ses some people off. One man's strafe-jump is another man's bunnyhop. Do those who dislike guns have the right to remove all guns everywhere so that they can play on every JO server in the world without meeting a gunner?

Nope.

The blue lunge hover was an obvious flaw that did need fixing, but I think its impact on gameplay was minimal. Players gained no significant advantage from its use. Your example of removing all guns everywhere is exactly the kind of thing an experienced player would reject.

Hm, this may be true for you and many others Arti, but it is not true for everyone.

You're right. Those not bothered by flaws and game imbalances should remain quite happy. I stand corrected.

Eep. Hide the silver, Matron. :D

Now, I feel it's important that you acknowledge the fact that, while JO may not be what you thought it was intended it to be, this does not mean that JO vanilla should be altered to accomodate your expectations. That's what mods are for, and that's what you're doing a great job of in promod. Replace JO vanilla though? Hmm, sounds a little authoritarian to me.

Actually, I mean to replace the vanilla version in competition play. Those not interested in it are welcome to whatever version they wish. I have neither the desire nor the clout to force anyone to play anything. But I can be damn persuasive. :)

I've explained above my reasons for saying that this is not so, but they're worth a recap:

Firstly, who will define who is an expert?

The developers, who are responsible for the state of the game.

Frankly I don't think anyone has the right to claim kingship of the realm of JO vanilla gameplay. Sure, I'd like changes made. And yes, I've been playing longer than most, and I've won more than most. But I know deep down that any attempt to force my opinions onto others would be arrogant and fascist.

I'm not planning to package up ProMod and send it off to Raven demanding that they send it out as an official patch. I'm just trying to produce a better game than the official version. If I accomplish that, then people will switch of their own accord.

You are currently doing your good work in the creation of Promod, which is your idea (and many people's idea) of improvement on vanilla JO. And good luck to you, and may Promod achieve success. But it's your mod, and so you get to make the decisions. But can any of us claim that JO vanilla is ours alone? No... Not even Raven can claim that, because from the second it hit store shelves, it belonged to the people who bought it as well.

Thus nobody has a right to decide what should be changed about JO's gameplay.

I would say that the dev team has a definite responsibility to the people who bought the game to make it the best product they possibly can. Failing that, find someone else who can improve upon it, and allow them to do so. Either way, the interest of the customer is served.

The idea that the game becomes untouchable as soon as someone buys it is false. You buy the right to play the game, not the game itself.

(stretch, crack) Man, i'm getting carpal tunnel syndrome from this thread...

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Artifex:
Actually, the dev team has this right. It's their work, their vision. If they don't like it, they can change it, and community be damned.

If you feel that way, it's your prerogative. I however believe that once a game hits the streets, gameplay-altering patches are likely only to do harm. JO is not the only game to have suffered a malady of this type.

Originally posted by Artifex:
Gameplay imbalances are bad. They make people quit the game.

Opinions of what constitute gameplay imbalances are subjective. If a game does not appeal to certain people, then those people should not play the game, or they should create a mod that plays the way they want the game to. However these days, game developers try to appeal to EVERYONE by releasing gameplay-changing patches that go far beyond bug-fixes. I view this as desperate and ultimately self-defeating, as each gameplay-changing patch alienates a section of the playing public.

Originally posted by Artifex:
Ideally, the developers should have played their game enough to know what needs fixing long before it is published.

As we have all been shown over the past six months, opinions of "what needs fixing" vary greatly from person to person. While you may consider your viewpoint to be "correct," others feel differently, and their opinions are just as valid.

Originally posted by Artifex:
I'm sure you will argue that no one knows what "optimum balance" is. Please go here: http://www.oculis.org/asc and read my two strategy guides. That is the kind of depth that I am talking about is required to know when something is balanced or not.

I've already read your documents my friend, and while I understand that you must feel pride in the depth of your research, nowhere on your site is there an there an exact formula for producing "fun." There are lucid, well-constructed musings about the nature of the game, and what YOU want from the game, but considering your viewpoint to be the right one is a different matter altogether.

Originally posted by Artifex:
If one tactic has no counter, then all other tactics are inferior, and will not be used except by those who are unaware of their inferiority. I won two tournaments in 1.02 using tactics with no counter.

Yes, I won two tournaments using tactics with no counter as well... However, my opponents were attempting to use those tactics too. The reason I won, was that I used the techniques more effectively than the other combatants. And indeed, I had a lot of fun doing it. In fact, during those tournaments I didn't change out of red once... I didn't have a problem with this. The fact that 90% of sabre strikes in JO vanilla are inferior to the other 10% does not take my fun away.

I'll give you an example: Instagib. One shot kills. It's extremely popular in both the UT and UT2k3 communities, and yet once one is shot, one is dead, and the opponent has a point. One respawns and goes at it again.

Does the fact that it's a one-hit-kill mean the game is less fun? Not really... For some people possibly. Many people find it tedious and one-dimensional. Still, many people find it fun.

Many people find vanilla JO fun too. Are they wrong? Is anyone who doesn't hold a certain viewpoint about what makes a game fun "wrong?"

Are you "right?"

Originally posted by Artifex:
Vanilla Halflife is inferior to its mods,

An awful lot of Half-Life players, myself included, agree with that statement...

But there were some who didn't. Not many, but some. Were they intellectually inferior because they enjoyed vanilla HL?

Originally posted by Artifex:
An expansion will alter this if it increments the version number to 1.05. If the tools used to make the expansion are not released, then mods will be seen as inferior to the expanded vanilla game. The mods will be played less; the vanilla game played more.

This could be an ideal situation for me, I have to admit. I have no interest in mods, and so my fate would depend on whether I enjoyed the hypothetical 1.05 or not. I realise this would be a bad situation for you, and so I think the best compromise would be an expansion that is a separate entity, as MOTS was to JK.

But as I've said throughout the thread, nobody can tell what effect the patch will have, or what they'll release with the patch.

Originally posted by Artifex:
If gameplay flaws still remain in the expanded version, then we will get a further split of the community, with less people playing mods and less people playing any vanilla version.

If 1.05 was not fun for many people, that would be the nightmare scenario, the scenario in which nobody would win. It is however only one possibility in amongst many. And since our community is going slowly downhill already, I consider the release of an expansion to be worth the risk.

Originally posted by Artifex:
Again, you are assuming that the expansion will have a positive influence

No I'm not, my friend... maybe I wasn't clear enough.

I hope that if an expansion is released, it is a separate entity from JO.

If it is NOT a separate entity, then I hope it has very few gameplay changes.

If it HAS gameplay changes, I hope that many people find them good.

Those are, successively, the things I hope for from an expansion. But assume? No. As I've said many many times now, nobody can predict the content or effect of an expansion until they know what's in it.

Originally posted by Artifex:
I think there will be flaws, and lots of them. The patches stand as a testament to this. How will you enjoy your vanilla version when the community is so fragmented that its hard to find a server running the version you like that is actually populated?

Well you're free to hypothesise... However, since 1.04 was an improvement over 1.03 in terms of its Guns FFA and CTF dynamic, I don't think the past effects of both the patches totally support an all-doom-and-gloom prediction. I know you have certain issues with Raven, but perhaps they may learn from 1.03's mistake. We just can't say.

Originally posted by Artifex:
there are bugs and gameplay flaws in 1.04. You cannot deny them. They are not subjective. They are fact.

Heh-heh, oh my friend, having posted here for as long as you have, can you doubt that EVERYTHING is subjective? I gave the example earlier of the 'blue-lunge-hover.' Some people still bemoan the fact that it was removed... it seems blindingly obvious to me that it was a bug AND a gameplay flaw... some people still dispute that it was a bug. Regardless of how I felt about it, others felt differently. I could sit here and argue my case to them for a year and a day, and it would have no effect on their point of view, because they simply did not see anything wrong in being able to hover by prodding their sabre about. They found it fun.

What am I to say to such people? What about: "No you didn't find it fun!" Should I put them in a box marked "stupid fewls, do not open till hell freezes over?"

When all's said and done they have a right to think whatever they wish, and they will find fun, what they find fun. I cannot alter that.

Don't misunderstand me, I hold strong opinions about the bugs and gameplay flaws in JO. But after deep reflection I have come to the conclusion that the "cure" for percieved problems can have a worse effect on player numbers and player satisfaction, than the disease.

"Okay, you can walk now!"

"Great Doc!"

"Oh, but you'll die in about five minutes time."

:D

Hence, not worth the risk.

Originally posted by Artifex:
You can swing a saber at someone from directly behind and have their saber magically block your strike while your saber cleaves directly through your back. This is not an opinion. This is reproduceable; verifiable. Anyone, regardless of experience, can be shown that this is a problem. By your philosophy, this should be regarded as part of the game and never changed. Folly.

You have the right to think it folly if you wish, Arti... But in my previous paragraph, I waxed lyrical about how not all people share the same view of what constitutes a problem.

Originally posted by Artifex:
I don't think your example is sound. Hitting someone in the foot with a charged tenloss shot consistently while they are on the run, jumping and flipping would be nearly impossible, even for a sharpshooter.

Heh-heh. Impossible? Ever faced a really good UT sniper? Ick, horrible. Some folks can hit a dime at 2,000 yards by tarnation. ;)

Originally posted by Artifex:
You are also assuming that the dev team did a poor job of testing before release. Something this obvious should be picked up before the public ever gets it.

Ahh I'm very glad you reminded me, I have utterly forgotten one important point to my argument throughout this thread:

If companies were not gameplay-patching constantly throughout a game's life, they would have to make more of an effort to bugfix and balance the game prior to its release.

In fact, this is one of the major things the gaming community is pleading for at the moment, a a game that's actually finished when it's sold.

Originally posted by Artifex:
The blue lunge hover was an obvious flaw that did need fixing, but I think its impact on gameplay was minimal.

Well, it had a certain impact in that experienced players no longer worried about falling damage, and indeed on maps with long falls and gantries such as Nar streets FFA, the 'blue hover' saved many a player from falling to their doom when they misjudged a jump or were pushed off their perch.

But I use it as an example more because both you and I considered it to be a flaw... but others did not. You may wish to label them as inexperienced or stupid, but frankly the longer I wade around on servers, the more I realise the importance of leaving players alone to have fun in whatever manner they wish. I too believe 1.02 had serious flaws, and yet if I had the power, I would forbid and erase any and all JO patches, because of the damage that they may have done to the player demographic.

Originally posted by Artifex:
I'm not planning to package up ProMod and send it off to Raven demanding that they send it out as an official patch. I'm just trying to produce a better game than the official version. If I accomplish that, then people will switch of their own accord.

Good, and good luck. Nobody would be happier than me if you truly succeeded in creating a "better" game with promod.

Originally posted by Artifex:
The idea that the game becomes untouchable as soon as someone buys it is false. You buy the right to play the game, not the game itself.

The idea that the game should become untouchable as soon as someone buys it is good, precisely because one also buys the right to play the game:

With 1.03, something was taken away from a lot of players. Their fun was taken away. In my view, this infringes upon their rights as players. I know I felt a certain sense of betrayal. Let's be honest, if 1.03 was the version the game was released at, and if I knew what I was buying, I wouldn't. I simply wouldn't buy it. I hated 1.03 that much.

Since it is not possible nor ethical to attempt to choose a group of players that automatically "know best" to assist a dev team, the only possible course of action is not to attempt gameplay-changing patches post-release at all.

Then no player who enjoys the game would ever have to feel betrayed, and nobody would ever lose anything they'd come to enjoy.

[Moradivh]

Wow Spider, you're quite the philosopher (http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame17.html), but I think this thread is passing the point of usefulness. You and ArtifeX really don't disagree on all that much, and this suffocating duel of words is giving the majority of forumers here a headache.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Moradivh:
You and ArtifeX really don't disagree on all that much, and this suffocating duel of words is giving the majority of forumers here a headache.

Is it? Personally I'm delighted to finally have a civilised discussion with someone on here without it degenerating into a slanging match...

As for what we disagree on, we seem to disagree on some fundamental points, but that should be apparent. I certainly hope nobody is given cranial pain by my posts. :(

PS. I'm clearly a Kung-Fu Master (http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame22.html) anyway.

[Moradivh]

PS. I'm clearly a Kung-Fu Master anyway.

Ha, everyone thinks they're the master, but ArtifeX would be dead by now if you were. ;) Lazarous is definitely one in ProMod.

But seriously, I de-lurked because I want Arti to stop debating cheap game philosophy with you and get back to finishing his mod. There, I said it. Now I'll go mind my own business.

**re-lurks and disappears**

[Lazarous]

*screams in agony and vainly tries to stop the flow of blood from his eyes*


too....many....words.....



Laz

[Darth Kaan]

Saying only the top ladder players truely understand the mechanics of the game is just an Elitest attitude revolving around self-importance. Most likely why LEC and Raven care less about your self appointed expert opinions. LOL! I am not aiming that statement at anyone specifically, but if the shoe fits...

You DO NOT, have to be a top level player to realize or understand that from the time of JKO's release, many players that prefer the saber, mused over the fact that Merc's could even use force powers. This fact, by itself, gives cappers a HUGE advantage over saberists in all Full force all weapons games.

From 1.02 to 1.04, saberists have had to spend force points to have a saber but Merc's have not for guns. Thus giving Merc's more points to apply to force powers that they should not have in the first place. Any weapon wielded with skill, should be viable. However, this was not the case in 1.02, nor is it in 1.04.

This advantage was expounded upon with the 1.04 patch nerfing saber damage values for the worse, removing every aspect of 1.03 that made it a more effective weapon. Thus, leaving Force powers as the only viable weapon for a saberist by making it 99% useless vs force wielding cappers. The imbalance is just staggering and has effectively removed one of the two unique aspects of the game...the lightsaber.

This has further split the remaining Multi-player community, (just as much as the patches did causing many to leave the game entirely), into Saber only or guns only factions. This is not a problem for those that are happy playing SO Duel or FFA mode. But, many people bought JKO to enjoy it's unique aspects of sabering against other force/Saber wielding Jedi/Sith and Merc's with guns, in multi-player. Alas, thanks to the patches of nerf, it is not happening.

The number of CTF players in JKO has dwindled rapidly and the small remaining CTF community has accepted the guns rule type of play. No wonder so many have left for UT2K3.

While Promod may be attempting to fix the imbalance issues, the current CTF elite will never accept it, because they DON'T want the saber being viable, because they don't want to relearn skills they have refined and have now. They fear those skills may not transfer into Promod. They realize the Saber will be made viable, returning its unique aspect into FF all weapons games.

However, these are soley a multi-player thing and only a part of the game as a whole. It's a known fact that while Multi-player is why many buy the game, just as many if not more buy games for SP and don't even care about Multi-player. Also most likely why 1.04 did not affect the SP portion of the game like it did MP.

Bottom line, is an expansion pack means money for LEC and Raven, or whoever makes it. That is what gaming companies are in the buisness for, to make money. They are going to do what makes sense to them to continue making money. They obviousely don't care about the self appointed elitest's opinions. They know SP is why most people buy their product. That is why they release the source code and tools for multi-player mods, but ultimately keep the single player source code under lock and key. Even If they do release it, it's because they are moving on to making another game to make more money after milking the current one dry.

These are my opinions and no one elses. I do not agree with the thought process that brought the community the patches of nerf, or that gave us the imbalanced gameplay in the first place. It is just the reality of the way things are as I see it.

I will keep playing JKO everday and enjoying it, despite its flaws, until another game comes along that has the saber and force powers and is better. Just like a lot of other people that they know will buy their next game when it comes out.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Moradivh:
Ha, everyone thinks they're the master, but ArtifeX would be dead by now if you were.

My son, if this were a battle someone may indeed have lain dead by now. Refreshingly, it is not. ;)

Originally posted by Moradivh:
I want Arti to stop debating cheap game philosophy with you

Tut tut, if you believe this discussion to be purely philosophical in nature you're deluding yourself... There's a serious practical issue being debated.

And Darth Kaan, an excellent post, succinct and to the point. I agree with most of what you say.

[FatalStrike]

This display of who can master an old and dead style of writing is boring.

Spider you made very good points and so did Artifex, congrats guys you both kick ass. I agree more with WW then I do with either of you. If the game dies then we all lose, but I think Willy has fallen off his rocker if he thinks we can do anything to get LEC's attention.

Spider play ProMod sometime, Arti Go play shoot around with Spidey sometime. Maybe it will help you guys see eye to eye.

Laters

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Spider AL

...

Then no player who enjoys the game would ever have to feel betrayed, and nobody would ever lose anything they'd come to enjoy.

I started to write another long response to this, but decided against it. You're adamant in your opinion, and so am I. I'll leave it with this:

You:
1. Only care about the vanilla version of the game. Mods be damned. Quote: "I have no interest in mods..."
2. You think that gameplay balance is subjective, and therefore no one is qualified to ever adjust it. Quote: "Opinions of what constitute gameplay imbalances are subjective."
3. You think that all gameplay patches are bad. Quote: "I however believe that once a game hits the streets, gameplay-altering patches are likely only to do harm...I view this as desperate and ultimately self-defeating..."

Me:
1. I care about expanding the player base for mods and the regular version. They are both compatible. I don't want one to kill the other. Releasing an expansion pack with better functionality than the tools released allow would kill mods. This is unacceptable.
2. I believe that some aspects of gameplay are subjective. Other aspects are not. If I made all guns to 1 point of damage, and the saber a 1-hit kill, then I have just created a non-subjective gameplay imbalance. Examples that are not so extreme must be judged by those best able to do so. Somebody must ultimately make a decision. This person must have a thorough knowledge of the game to make decisions on balance issues which affect the entire game. Someone who does not have a thorough knowledge of the game is not qualified to make judgements about changes that will affect the entire game. The idea that everyone's opinion is valid in this context is illogical and socialistic.
3. Not all gameplay patches are bad. If they correct objective imbalances in the game, they cannot be bad--if you accept the principle that gameplay imbalances are bad. They are. No, really. They are. If you think there are no objective game imbalances, please refer to #2 above.

[Spider AL]

Fatalstrike's become a mediator?

:explode:

It's a shock, but I like the new you, Fate. :thmbup1:

One or two final points I'd like to clear up before we adjourn for tea and biscuits:

Originally posted by Artifex:
You: 1. Only care about the vanilla version of the game

Let us say that... vanilla is the only kind of server that I currently enjoy the flavour of. It's merely my personal preference, and I have nothing against mods or mod-makers. Thus, the state of the vanilla game is my primary concern, just as the state of promod is yours.

Originally posted by Artifex:
I believe that some aspects of gameplay are subjective. Other aspects are not. If I made all guns to 1 point of damage, and the saber a 1-hit kill, then I have just created a non-subjective gameplay imbalance.

In my opinion that would indeed be a game imbalance, and beyond debate... but I've met and played with people to whom such a change would be an improvement. While most people wouldn't agree with them, it remains a fact that not all people find what we would consider a perfectly balanced game... fun. Thus, judgements on the improvement of gameplay are relative and subjective.

Originally posted by Artifex:
Releasing an expansion pack with better functionality than the tools released allow would kill mods. This is unacceptable.

As I stated earlier, I recognise that this would be a bad situation for you and other mod-makers, and I absolutely empathise, and I absolutely hope that it doesn't come to pass. I do say, however, that if the vanilla game ends up being improved (that is, made more universally fun) through an expansion, it would spell good things for the scope of our community.

Originally posted by Artifex:
3. You think that all gameplay patches are bad.

Not quite, it would be more accurate to say that I consider gameplay-altering patches to be more likely to do harm, than not, as I said above: "I however believe that once a game hits the streets, gameplay-altering patches are likely only to do harm." I consider the more probable risk of alienating huge portions of game-players to outweigh any possible benefit to the community.

And I agree that we seem to have reached an impasse Artifex, though I think we have at least accomplished this: That we have conveyed our ideas lucidly and clearly enough for everyone to understand them, and hopefully everyone will take these points of view into account in future. That's the possible, positive product of civilised debate, as opposed to rampant flame war. Take heed, everyone.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Spider AL
...
Let us say that... vanilla is the only kind of server that I currently enjoy the flavour of. It's merely my personal preference, and I have nothing against mods or mod-makers. Thus, the state of the vanilla game is my primary concern, just as the state of promod is yours.
ProMod is my primary concern, but not my only concern. Your only concern is with the official version. You would regard damage to the mod community as unfortunate, but wouldn't care one way or the other. I want both improved.

In my opinion that would indeed be a game imbalance, and beyond debate... but I've met and played with people to whom such a change would be an improvement. While most people wouldn't agree with them, it remains a fact that not all people find what we would consider a perfectly balanced game... fun. Thus, judgements on the improvement of gameplay are relative and subjective.

I challenge you to produce any player that will honestly state that they think all guns doing one point of damage and sabers being a one hit kill would be an improvement on gameplay. Someone with that opinion would be in an infinitesimal minority, and should be discounted.

As I stated earlier, I recognise that this would be a bad situation for you and other mod-makers, and I absolutely empathise, and I absolutely hope that it doesn't come to pass. I do say, however, that if the vanilla game ends up being improved (that is, made more universally fun) through an expansion, it would spell good things for the scope of our community.

If it was an improvement, and if they released the tools necessary to update the mods, then it would be good for the scope of the community. Without the tools, mods die. You seem to keep forgetting this when you restate your points about how much you want an expansion pack. One more time for the rear seats:

Jk2 + Expansion - Tools = Good for Spider/Bad for all mods.
Jk2 + Tools = Bad for Spider/Good for all mods.
Jk2 + Expansion + Tools = Good for everyone.

Why would anyone argue for anything but #3?

[Spider AL]

I thought we'd finished here... Ah well, once more unto the breach.

Originally posted by Artifex:
I challenge you to produce any player that will honestly state that they think all guns doing one point of damage and sabers being a one hit kill would be an improvement on gameplay. Someone with that opinion would be in an infinitesimal minority, and should be discounted.

Oh gosh, there have been so many people who have stated to me categorically that they think the presence of all guns is lame and feeble... On guns servers. As for producing one right now,.. It might take some time. I've tried very hard not to socialise with such people. ;)

As for your assertion that someone who holds that kind of view would be in a minority, possibly so.

Yet, you say they should be discounted because they're in a minority? Very authoritarian. You're deciding whose opinions of what constitutes a fun game are valid now?

Experts are in a minority, and yet you say their opinions of what constitutes fun are in some way MORE valid than the opinions of a majority cross-section?

Strange... I don't quite understand your reasoning on that front.

Originally posted by Artifex:
ProMod is my primary concern, but not my only concern. Your only concern is with the official version. You would regard damage to the mod community as unfortunate, but wouldn't care one way or the other. I want both improved.

Well good for you, and may you have success. I, on the other hand, don't play the mods that are available right now, they don't really set my teeth alight, so to speak. So I fear sympathy would be the only reaction on my part if the mod community was damaged, it's true. If I enjoyed a mod, I might fear to lose it, however since the community's running out of steam anyway, I don't think that ANY of us have that much to lose from an expansion. You may predict doom and gloom from it, but I'll reserve judgement until it's released, if indeed it is.

Originally posted by Artifex:
If it was an improvement, and if they released the tools necessary to update the mods, then it would be good for the scope of the community. Without the tools, mods die. You seem to keep forgetting this when you restate your points about how much you want an expansion pack.

Why, I'm not forgetting anything, I don't think... If the vanilla game was improved by an expansion, there might be hope for an influx of players. As things stand, there is no influx. Certainly, it's possible that an expansion could ruin everything for us all, but it could also save us all.

Originally posted by Artifex:
One more time for the rear seats:

Jk2 + Expansion - Tools = Good for Spider/Bad for all mods.
Jk2 + Tools = Bad for Spider/Good for all mods.
Jk2 + Expansion + Tools = Good for everyone.

Why would anyone argue for anything but #3?

Why indeed? I certainly don't. :) In fact, nowhere in the above thread have I argued for any one of those three options... I've stated that no.3 would be ideal, but I've also stated my fears that it will not come to pass.

What you may have confused with such a sentiment is my statement that the possible positive effects of an expansion may be worth the risk of damaging either your camp, or mine. I say this due to the slow decay of the community. In my view, none of us have that much to lose, and we have everything to gain.

[zerowingzero]

Originally posted by Spider AL



Yet, you say they should be discounted because they're in a minority? Very authoritarian. You're deciding whose opinions of what constitutes a fun game are valid now?

Experts are in a minority, and yet you say their opinions of what constitutes fun are in some way MORE valid than the opinions of a majority cross-section?

Strange... I don't quite understand your reasoning on that front.





From what i gather, there is NO group that can honestly ballence the game, therefore, noone should try? I'm not grasping this.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by zerowingzero:
From what i gather, there is NO group that can honestly ballence the game, therefore, noone should try? I'm not grasping this.

Well ZWZ, this is just my personal opinion, but I think that gameplay-altering patches have one major effect: the effect of alienating sections of the community because they take away things that people have gotten used to, and had fun with.

For example, 1.03 alienated a lot of people because it disempowered guns, force powers and the sabre.

1.04 alienated a lot of people because it disempowered the backswing. (Personally I view 1.04 as an improvement over 1.03, so I was one of the lucky ones who weren't alienated by it)

Now, regardless of any improvements to the game through minor bugfixes, it cannot be denied that the patches alienated a lot of people.

Now, if Raven had not released those gameplay-altering patches, who knows what JO would be like now. It might be better, it might be worse, nobody can say...

But my belief is that attempts to alter the gameplay of a game after it's been released for some time, and people have settled into their respective patterns, is just cruel to those people that will be alienated.

Thus, every effort should be made to balance a game before its release, but I don't think the gameplay should be altered at all after release.

My point is not simply that no group has the right to decide what to balance, my point is also that no group has the right to deliberately alienate another group, regardless of how long they've been playing.

[zerowingzero]

I understand what your saying, but if the company did not playtest enough, and the game had some great flaws, would you say the whole community would adapt and not care?

That's why i'm supporting mods, even though they may be inballenced, with the maker still around, they can be alterd till it's right. forinstance, in promod beta 1, the yellow stance dominated all the others, the speed and damage were too great, so in beta 2, the damage was slightly reduced.
I doubt raven would do much playtesting, if any if they released a 1.05 or an expansion, using past patches as examples. I would rather have raven make a sp only expantion, coupled with the latest maps/models plus the most popular mods as options, that way there would still be the vannila game, jedi mod, promod, and maybe some of those tc's that are to be released.

The least they could do is maybe point to recomended mods/models on their site, or make a pak that everyone could download. Right now it's pretty much random to see the model you just dled on servers. How much work would be requred to do this? A few people to look at the mods/models/maps for bugs, zip them or make a .exe, then but it on thier site for dl, no coding required. But this isnt the ut developers here that release bonus packs for a game that's older than a few months...

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by zerowingzero:
I understand what your saying, but if the company did not playtest enough, and the game had some great flaws, would you say the whole community would adapt and not care?

A good question... My answer would be: If a game isn't good when it's released, it shouldn't succeed. As for the fans who want the game to be a certain way... Modmakers used Half-Life to make their great mods even though the vanilla game wasn't the greatest MP experience, and they were the some of the most successful mods ever made for any game.

Originally posted by zerowingzero:
That's why i'm supporting mods, even though they may be inballenced

And I support mods too in my way, in that I hope they succeed. I've been talking about how gameplay-altering patches are bad though.

As for predictions of what Raven would release in an expansion, they're all moot... Nobody can predict the effect of an expansion until its release, apart from one factor: Most people here seem to agree that there would be an influx of new players if an expansion was released. That is what I've been terming the "positive effect" of such an expansion.

And I think Raven may have been scalded by all the kiddies calling them names on the boards. It's unsurprising they haven't involved themselves deeper in the community.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

The thing that confused me is the continued insistance of people to think of the game as Guns vs Sabers, this (imo) is precisely the reason why half these arguments start. The "elite" CTFers don't just run riot with guns, they appreciate the power of the saber, but IT HAS A TIME AND A PLACE, saberists want to be able to be a one man army using just one weapon, gunners wan't to be a one man army using a multitude of weapons adapting depending on situation. Now in terms of balance, who SHOULD win? I think the gunner should win, they have far more ability to adapt. If you hadn't noticed, in the movies, the Jedi win because George tailors every single battle to allow them to do so, if the battle-droids used rocket launchers instead of blasters, the entire jedi order would have been wiped out in AotC.

Here's something which may confuse some of you, this is a game not a movie. If it was a movie the Jedi would HAVE to win, afterall they are some kind of uberbeing.

The second someone makes it so that Guns vs Saber is balanced instead of Gun vs Gun vs Gun vs Saber vs Gun, they basically remove the need for guns entirely from the game, afterall you can defeat anyone with a saber. Gunners use guns AND sabers because it is the optimal combination, what right do people who deliberately restrict their arsenal have to complain when they can't win against those who use everything?

An earlier post suggests that CTF is dying, to me its the only game-type which is actually beginning to flourish, a lot of players who'd moved on to ut2003 and such games have returned to play CTF alongside the newer games.

As for an expansion, I think its essential that an expansion is produced in order for this game to survive, but it should be stand-alone or at least loaded via the mod-menu. We need the influx of new maps, players and ideas that an expansion would provide. Afterall the JK2 editing community has hardly taken off, we have a couple of hundred maps and a few dozen mods which change hardly anything. The only real mod to date is Hydroball which died pretty quickly due to lack of server support.

[Darth Kaan]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
The thing that confused me is the continued insistance of people to think of the game as Guns vs Sabers, this (imo) is precisely the reason why half these arguments start. The "elite" CTFers don't just run riot with guns, they appreciate the power of the saber, but IT HAS A TIME AND A PLACE, saberists want to be able to be a one man army using just one weapon, gunners wan't to be a one man army using a multitude of weapons adapting depending on situation. Now in terms of balance, who SHOULD win? I think the gunner should win, they have far more ability to adapt. If you hadn't noticed, in the movies, the Jedi win because George tailors every single battle to allow them to do so, if the battle-droids used rocket launchers instead of blasters, the entire jedi order would have been wiped out in AotC.

Here's something which may confuse some of you, this is a game not a movie. If it was a movie the Jedi would HAVE to win, afterall they are some kind of uberbeing.

The second someone makes it so that Guns vs Saber is balanced instead of Gun vs Gun vs Gun vs Saber vs Gun, they basically remove the need for guns entirely from the game, afterall you can defeat anyone with a saber. Gunners use guns AND sabers because it is the optimal combination, what right do people who deliberately restrict their arsenal have to complain when they can't win against those who use everything?

An earlier post suggests that CTF is dying, to me its the only game-type which is actually beginning to flourish, a lot of players who'd moved on to ut2003 and such games have returned to play CTF alongside the newer games.

As for an expansion, I think its essential that an expansion is produced in order for this game to survive, but it should be stand-alone or at least loaded via the mod-menu. We need the influx of new maps, players and ideas that an expansion would provide. Afterall the JK2 editing community has hardly taken off, we have a couple of hundred maps and a few dozen mods which change hardly anything. The only real mod to date is Hydroball which died pretty quickly due to lack of server support.

I agree with most of what you said except three things;

1. In High level CTF, it is a guns/force only game. Period. Sabers are useless against force weilding cappers. It is not a matter of them being an all the time effective weapon, it's the fact they are not effective 99% of the time.

2. Merc's use force powers without having to invest some of their force points to weapons. This gives them more points for force powers they should not have in the first place, one of which increase their weapons rate of fire.

3. Movies or not, giving Merc's force powers in the game afforded them even more advantage than they already had mid and long range. While I am only average at CTF, all I have seen that dominate use guns and force only. I can't and don't blaim them, why use a useless weapon?

The travesty in all of this is the fact that the decision to give cappers force powers, not require they apply points to weapons (guns), while one must to even have a nerfed saber, removed one of the two unique aspects of this game, in CTF mode which in this game should be called , Bounty Hunters: Mercs with the Force.

Just my opinions, everyone is entitled to their own.

[Spider AL]

Although it means my running off on a canonical tangent, I have to say that I agree with what Detritic says about the eternal sabs vs. guns debate, and I've said similar things in old debates with sabreheads.

To me, the problem seems to be the fact that so many SW fanboys equate carrying a lightsabre with being a Jedi.

And of course, this is just because they think IT SI KEWWLLL!11

A Jedi isn't his sword. His sword isn't powered by the Force. HE is powered by the Force. A Jedi without a sword is only marginally less dangerous than a Jedi with a sword. A Jedi is a Jedi because of his mastery of the ways of the Force.

Anyone can wield a lightsabre, lit:

Qui-Gon Jinn - "Perhaps I killed a Jedi and stole it (his lightsabre) from him."

A lightsabre is not a magical Jedi-Only weapon, nor is it greater than a gun in killing power, as one sabre-hit can kill someone, and one blaster hit can kill someone.

So unless you're playing on a JvMerc server, ALL players on all servers are JEDI. Whether they carry a sword, a gun, or a corkscrew!

[Moradivh]

Okay, long post coming... shield your eyes Laz.

Seems this topic is moving from expansion-pack discussion to general criticism of what promod tries to do. I can understand how people write the mod off as a saberist's wet dream, something unappealing to the majority of players. I might agree if I hadn't tried the mod myself, but I think some of you underestimate the scope of ArtifeX's thought on the subject. His mod isn't trying to be one big gun nerf, or a bunch of stupid little changes that no-one but a hardcore saberist would notice.

There are almost limitless un-tapped gameplay options and opportunities in JO that most people take for granted, things Raven implemented but didn't polish enough to be noticed. In theory, if all of these systems functioned at top efficiency, not only would all game types be more fun, but you'd see a steady reunification of all the fragmented playing types in the community.

How successful ArtifeX will be is still unknown, but that's one of the things he's trying to do. He hopes the mod will be accepted by his own caste of hardcore, competative players, and that eventually the other community types will catch on as the mod evolves and gets new features.

Now, some have argued that ProMod couldn't appeal to the masses because it doesn't alter the game on a grand enough scale, like CS did with HL. To this I answer: give it time. ArtifeX is already building his own unique jetpack system, a new neutral force power, and soon completely new saber styles (double-bladed/twin/one-handed). He's compiling all the best multiplayer maps and skins made by the community to ensure their compatability. And if his mod takes off even a little bit, these changes might only be the beginning. I don't really mean to compare the two, but CS wasn't made in a day.

But is it too late? Is the JO community too weak, fragmented, and eclipsed by the more popular and epic FPS games of today? Can it be re-vitalized by some upstart saberist-turned-modder with delusions of grandeur? I don't know. But I doubt the Half-Life multiplayer community was in the best of conditions either, before CS and TFC came along. Granted, JO wasn't as initially popular as Half-Life, but who can be sure? I can't.

And now for the "realism" debate (heh heh). Some people think promod's approach to saber-vs-guns is unrealistic, that a Jedi Master with a rocket launcher is better than a Jedi Master with a glowstick. Whelp, there's one weakness in promod -- gunners who are absolutely set in their ways won't like the lack of force powers. But if they have even a shred of curiousity, the smallest sense of adventure, they may want to try promod's "improved" gun strength at skill level 4. That's right: guns are uber-deadly in ArtifeX's system, and can kill even more tyranically when in the right hands. And I won't even mention the jetpacks. ;)

And if gunners ever feel force withdrawl while they're rocket-sniping n00bs, they can try any number of gun/force hybrids that are possible in the skill set. Class-based, like all the most popular FPS online games today, except even more versatile.

And let's be honest here folks: what makes JO multiplayer stand out from all the brilliant online shooters today? Is it the ho-hum maps Raven made? The somewhat-interesting gun types? The force powers that work like glorified powerups, jetpacks and weak guns? Just about every other shooter has this stuff already, in some form.

But what about that sword with several dozen unique moves and abilities attached to it?

Yeah, I'd say the lightsaber is the biggest innovation. Too bad it's only used 10% of the time in most game types. Doesn't really feel like Star Wars anymore, does it? More like some weak quake mod. So why not just play CS, or better yet Battlefield 1942, where you have all these cool vehicles and battleships and stuff? Why play JO just for the guns?

Get my drift? So... in one shot, ArtifeX is trying to bring the spirit of the movies back to JO multiplayer, plus make the game itself more fun and more supportive of new maps and skins, and in doing so help heal the splits in the community. And maybe, just maybe, help JO multiplayer compete with other online shooters in its own Jedi fashion.

Can Arti pull all this crap off? Probably not, but having played his mod and been impressed by his clarity of vision, I have a small hope.

And if you don't like the changes he makes, still think he's full of himself, then don't worry: it's just a mod. Vanilla JO will be there until the last of us move on to clearly better games.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Moradivh:
Seems this topic is moving from expansion-pack discussion to general criticism of what promod tries to do.

...

I don't know what thread you've been reading my friend... Nobody mentioned Promod at all in the last four posts before yours. :confused:

What I talked about in my previous post, and what, after concentrated reading I deemed that Det was talking about, is the constant partitioning and segregation of portions of the community by a group I term "sabreheads." Those are people who believe that only Jedi should use the sabre, and Jedi should not use guns. They say that those who use guns... are not Jedi.

In my post I was pointing out the canonical and realism flaw in the argument of the sabreheads, and Detritic appeared to be pointing out the technical and game-related flaws in their arguments.

These concepts have nothing to do with Promod IMO... You may be a little too ready to leap to the defence of the thing, when it isn't currently being debated, much less attacked.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Moradivh
...
Get my drift? So... in one shot, ArtifeX is trying to bring the spirit of the movies back to JO multiplayer, plus make the game itself more fun and more supportive of new maps and skins, and in doing so help heal the splits in the community. And maybe, just maybe, help JO multiplayer compete with other online shooters in its own Jedi fashion.
...

At last. Someone understands why I'm doing this.

I'm speechless.

[Moradivh]

These concepts have nothing to do with Promod IMO... You may be a little too ready to leap to the defence of the thing, when it isn't currently being debated, much less attacked. I was worried I'd be instantly accused of that. But ArtifeX's motives in this argument are so closely tied to his mod that I thought talking about them couldn't hurt. I admit you never made a direct attack, but it seemed an inevitable clash if you were to continue these endless rebuttles. Besides, you guys DID bring up the "realistic inferiority" of the saber, out of the blue, a statement which flies in the face of promod whether or not it was an "official" attack. So why can't I try to shed some light on ArtifeX's point of view? Which of us was more outside of the debate?

I like try to address the undercurrents of any misunderstanding during an argument. Debates tend to be rather ineffective otherwise, in my experience. I also have strong opinions on this subject. Accuse me of being overly defensive if it makes you happy. I won't deny it, but neither will I wholly aknowledge it.

Whew, I'm in the wrong line of work. I oughta be a politician.

I'm speechless. Being a cowardly lurker most of the time, speechlessness is something I respect greatly. :D

Anyways, good luck. I mean that. Get Promod back out there pronto, I'm getting bored with vanilla. Less talk more mod. ;)

- Blind Moradin

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Moradivh:
ArtifeX's motives in this argument are so closely tied to his mod that I thought talking about them couldn't hurt.

Certainly you can post what you wish, but not only did you erroneously leap to the defence of Promod when it was not under attack, you labelled myself and Detritic as attackers of Promod. This is unacceptable and misrepresentative of my views, and probably Detritic's as well, though I can't speak for him.

Originally posted by Moradivh:
I admit you never made a direct attack

By that you imply that I made an indirect attack? Keep your angry-hat and your combative terminology for another day my friend, this is a civil debate, not a flame war. And, I don't think reactionary posts of the type you've been making help to keep it as civil as it currently is. You may have been aware of that before you made your post of course, but regardless I will inform you of the fact.

The merits of Promod have never been the subject of this thread. Also, the debate over the question of whether the sabre should rival the guns in power is an old one, older than Promod itself.

Furthermore game modifcations are mediums in which the mod-maker has the right to pursue whatever line of game balance he or she wishes, and it would be not only pointless but idiotic to debate its merits. It is as Artifex wishes it to be, and that is the end of the story.

Originally posted by Moradivh:
Besides, you guys DID bring up the "realistic inferiority" of the saber, out of the blue, a statement which flies in the face of promod whether or not it was an "official" attack.

You may not have been here to witness the many flame wars and debates that raged over the balance of power between the sabre and the gun, and whether the Jedi carries only a lightsabre or not, and whether Kyle Katarn is a real Jedi, all of which occurred immediately after the release of JO, and you may not be aware that similar debates went on in the days of JK1. Regardless, it's an old debate.

As for the more recent advent of Promod, Promod is what Promod is. It is not an issue for debate, as stated above.

If I can be perfectly honest at this moment, I'd like to ask you to calm down. Your opinions may well be strong and you have a right to them, but you don't have to express them in terms so strong as to cause offence, which you have done so far.

Originally posted by Moradivh:
Accuse me of being overly defensive if it makes you happy. I won't deny it, but neither will I wholly aknowledge it. Whew, I'm in the wrong line of work. I oughta be a politician.

Mm-hmm. If you can find anything positive in the type of peculiarly transparent and yet annoyingly obtuse behaviour practiced by politicians, then your sigline nickname may be more apt than you realise, and I'd recommend that you re-evaluate your view of the people in question. ;)

[Moradivh]

Ouch, that was harsh. Attacking my nicknames now? :)

Anyways, I don't feel like playing this game of endless quotes and rebuttles, as you'd surely drown me and everyone else eventually.

I hate to say it Spider, but people don't care that much about what you have to say, not enough to keep reading chapter after chapter of your private views on game patches. Not even the overly-threatened crazies like me really care that much. :D

But there are worse things you could do, and I'm honestly not angry. In fact, at the beginning of this thread I agreed totally with your views. And if we ever met I'd guess you'd be a pleasant, enlightened person. Unfortunately, for some reason you've locked someone I know (who is rather busy at the moment) into a tireless, grinding, vaporous debate with no end in sight and no reconciliation that I can perceive, and I'll risk the assumption that few people besides you are enjoying themselves.

In any case, I don't feel like getting trapped in the same game, so my presence on this thread ends here. Have fun picking apart and twisting my words at your pleasure, but please satisfy your ego with having the last word and mend this stupid argument soon.

And no hard feelings. We all got our eccentricities, if I spelled that right.

- Blind Moradin

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Moradivh
Ouch, that was harsh. Attacking my nicknames now?

The only person who has attacked anything in this post is you, my son. It would have been remiss of me not to point out the curious coincidence of you calling yourself "blind" in your sig, and actually exhibiting a certain short-sightedness at the same time.

Originally posted by Moradivh
Anyways, I don't feel like playing this game of endless quotes and rebuttles, as you'd surely drown me and everyone else eventually.

I empathise, some people can't function in a drawn out debate without either losing sight of their original purpose or becoming childish and unpleasant through frustration.

Originally posted by Moradivh
I'm honestly not angry.

This is a good thing. anyone who becomes emotionally involved in an online debate is behaving foolishly, to say the least.

Originally posted by Moradivh
Unfortunately, for some reason you've locked someone I know (who is rather busy at the moment) into a tireless, grinding, vaporous debate

Short of tying them to a chair, there is no way to "lock" someone in a debate, my friend. Either one debates, or one does not. People may feel some sort of imperative to continue a debate due to emotional involvement, but as stated above, emotional involvement in online debate is misguided.

And anyway, I'm not going to go into exactly who's kept this debate going for as long as it has. If someone poses a question to me, of course I'll answer it, and if someone misrepresents my arguments or statements- as you have done- I will put the record straight. Up to now many people, including yourself, have seemed eager to put their oar into the water, so I don't think I can quite carry the can for "forcing everyone to debate." :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Moradivh
I'll risk the assumption that few people besides you are enjoying themselves.

Up until your involvement, I found this thread to be without fail mature and informative. I think there's a lot of constructive things to be gained from a discussion like this, so I'm afraid you have completely the wrong attitude to appreciate debates of this kind. This thread has given me an insight into the views of others that I simply couldn't have gained otherwise. And I've made my views clear enough so that others hopefully have the same understanding of them, and the views they represent.

Originally posted by Moradivh
people don't care that much about what you have to say, not enough to keep reading chapter after chapter of your private views on game patches.

Ah, you can speak for "people" at large can you. That's quite a gift.

Regardless, I have no doubt you're correct for most people... but what's important is that we all express our views so that those of us with the maturity to listen and to take those views into account, can appreciate them, and learn from them.

Originally posted by Moradivh
In any case, I don't feel like getting trapped in the same game, so my presence on this thread ends here. Have fun picking apart and twisting my words at your pleasure, but please satisfy your ego with having the last word and mend this stupid argument soon.

My my, what a mature "parting shot" to use your own combative terminology. Most distasteful.

[Moradivh]

**bows**

Touche. :)

[Spider AL]

Yet another post, and this time you use a fencing term? Must everything be a battle with people like you?

:tsk:

[ksk h2o]

and all this relates HOW to the expansion pack? and releasing the necessary tools to the modders for their work not to get nerfed?

[opusvi]

First of all I should lay out that I'm one of those poor, unskilled players whom you have made it clear, is imminently not qualified to have an opinion on serious and critical issues of gameplay.

I love JK2. I think it's the best 3-d adventure game I've enjoyed since DS9: The Fallen. However, I have a hard enough time beating the game on the second difficulty level without quick-save. Still, developing cat-like reflexes is not an option I have and spending five or six hours a week honing my skills so I could precisely execute four succesive saber swipes to end in a perfect fatality or whatever.

I tried MP for a bit and needless to say I died, early and often. I don't see the allure behind repeatedly getting blown up in stupid nonsense games like CTF or FFA. Honestly, what's the big deal about getting a beatdown from (or delivering one to) an annoying 12 year old or smug 32 year old in the current MP? Someone pointed out to me that after the patches, the weapons, lightsabers, and force powers have been changed to balance out the blah blah blah... So what? That would mean I last 30 seconds while chasing a guy with a Ysalamander or whatever?

Unless there's a subscription fee or an aspect of their business model that I'm not familiar with, LA charges ~ $50 USD of your purchase of JK2 of which they likely see a substantial profit. There is no additional software purchase for MP; the patches are free, the servers are free. Why would they care what you liked or didn't like about it's MP gameplay? Why would they even care if you're not going to play MP anymore? This isn't like UT2000, a game specifically designed for MP competition. It's a stand-alone first player adventure in the Star Wars universe.

Does anyone honestly think that LA will lose a significant number of first-time customers or even second-time expansion pack buyers based on some self-proclaimed elitist expert's derision of the MP experience? The number of "master saberists" or whatever surely can't make more than a small percentage of the total number of people who purchase this game. Heck, until I see some stats, I'll wager that the very percentage of JK2 owners who've even played MP (like SUV owners who take them off-road) is a minority of itself.

And even if it's a sizeable minority, for every disgruntled Jedi Master there's any number of young kids born well after the original trilogy who will buy the game and expansion pack regardless of your opinion or mine. If they redid MP so that everyone ran on the celing with force speed and double-edged stun batons I still wouldn't play it because it's hard to get excited behind ctf, which frankly wasn't even all that much fun in elementary school to begin with.

The expansion pack will come out in a year or so with four or five average to good new levels and it will sell quite nicely. Perhaps not as well as JK2 itself, but respectably nonetheless. Whatever changes they make to MP won't amount to squat since it will still be a pointless competition of who's got the fastest fingers.

If LA & Raven truly wanted to get the most out of MP they would set up a giant server system and run movie-inspired objective-based scenarios with huge teams such as putting down a rebel insurrection, stopping a commando alliance infiltration into an imperial base or something along those lines. There would be specific player classes, abilities, and weapons, limitations on the number of jedis each side could have, strategy-based objectives etc... Heck, an AOTC conversion sounds pretty darn good on paper.

LA could then charge on a subscription basis or an access pass per scenario format like pay-per-view. "Friday at 9:30 EST join hundreds of players from both sides to reenact the attack on Hoth!" Sure, I'd cough up money to be a part of that, as long as there weren't stormtroopers force gripping rebel commanders or something equally inane.

Yet this concept (and escapist level of authenticity) is what will become a large draw for SW: Galaxies. Unless combat turns out to be terrible in Galaxies and action-seeking subscribers flee in droves, LA has no reason to care that John Doe can no longer impale the flag carrier backwards and upside down as a result of the latest JK2 patch.

The only argument that I would accept is if each person who is most adept and proficient at the game could through their opinions, truly persuade a number of people to buy or not buy copies of JK2. Ironically enough, I as one of the mediocre players with some disposable income, can afford to do one better. I bought several copies of JK2 to give out to people for their birthdays or whatnot. I will probably stuff some stockings for my console friends come the holiday season as well.

Their revenue stream from JK2 is a result of one-time (or in some cases like mine, multiple-time) purchases of the game. If anyone actually come up with a good enough idea with enough draw, quality, and interest to become a popular mod with substantial following it like CS for HL, will get yanked by LA and their cadre of lawyers, sued for damages, and worse yet, have their ideas ripped off for use in an expansion pack or sequel. LA doesn't have to lift a finger to help out mod-makers and they don't have to care. Modders everywhere should be happy they're fending off whiny people who want watered down MP instead of cease and desist court orders.

[Moradivh]

Wow, that's the best speech I've ever read here. Kudos. Wish I could verify your last paragraph, but I don't know the intrigue behind famous mods like Counter-Strike and couldn't give an opinion.

Okay, I'm gone for real this time, no fooling, just wanted to applaud opusvi's post. I guess this thread isn't so hopeless after all. :)

[MrCrusher]

If Lucas Arts is intending to release an expansion then it would be a Huge mistake for them not to take a serious look at ProMods implementation of saber combat - and expand on that.

I suspect Raven only gets paid so many man/hours to work on JK2 and that is most likely why there is lukewarm interest for further enhancements and lackluster patching. The folks that coded the game probably do not share in its profits. Fortunately for both Raven and LA someone came along and fixed the game - FOR FREE - at least ProMod demonstrates to them how it should be done.

I've been around ...played all pc melee/combat games since Die by the Sword, only two games stand out - Raven's Heretic 2 and JK2/ProMod. These two play with almost identical tempo and control. If Raven does get coding again on JK2 it would be wise of them to talk to the small dedicated H2 community and the JK2 community as well. They would most likely find both communities saying the same things.

It would be nice to see everyone playing a ProMod/H2 like combat system in the next expansion.

[Lazarous]

Opusvi is in many ways right. We, the multiplayer community of jk2, are an extremely small percentage of the total number of people who bought it (and becoming smaller by every indication). Furthermore, jk2 is not really a game that sells a lot based on its multiplayer component...most people play the single player campaign and are quite happy with it. Lots of new sales almost certainly are not going to be generated because its multi component gets an overhaul and becomes 'fun' to us grognards again.


Despite these facts, raven made 2 patches the gameplay of the multiplayer component already. Not only that, it seemed to make these changes based on the gripes and bitching expoused on this very board, by many of these very people. It overreacted, in the eyes of many, but still...things changed because of discussions here.


Now, i know of only one game that actually started getting more sales because of the mods associated with it - half life. Many other games have some very nice mods, but in general this doesn't catch the eye of the vast gaming public. I fully expect this to be the case here, even though promod makes great strides towards creating a very comprehensive and fun multiplayer combat system.


However - I don't KNOW that this will be the case. It may be that promod catches hold of many peoples imagination, starts spreading like wildfire and then eclipses counterstrike in the number of servers running it and the number of people playing it. Likely? No, but for a company to willingly throw away that sort of extra revenue possibility because it didn't want to make the MINIMAL outlay of resources, such as the things artifex mentioned - animation source code, multiplayer source code, stuff like that - is just acting...well, stupid is too weak a word for it.


Laz

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Lazarous:
for a company to willingly throw away that sort of extra revenue possibility because it didn't want to make the MINIMAL outlay of resources, such as the things artifex mentioned - animation source code, multiplayer source code, stuff like that - is just acting...well, stupid is too weak a word for it.

Well absolutely Laz, but you must remember that big, ponderous corporations like LEC are run not by imaginative executives... but by accountants. And accountants are misers, not to put too fine a point on it. "Dog in the manger" is the order of the day, etc.

Originally posted by opusvi:
Whatever changes they make to MP won't amount to squat since it will still be a pointless competition of who's got the fastest fingers.

Opusvi, good post, I agree with most of it as you may have guessed... But from one decrepit oldie to another I have to say... the buzz one gets from winning these games through skill is unparalleled. Well, let's put it this way, it's the best buzz you can get while fully dressed. Also, I recall that once, one of the best clans in the UK (I think it was Quake 3...) [4K], declared that they only practiced for a few hours at weekends, so it's not about how much you train at the game, it's about how much you concentrate while training. And there's always the hope in the back of the gamer's mind that a game they like will become a pro-gaming standard, so that they can have a shot at making money from playing it. Those are some of the benefits.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by opusvi
First of all I should lay out that I'm one of those poor, unskilled players whom you have made it clear, is imminently not qualified to have an opinion on serious and critical issues of gameplay.
...

I'm not arguing that you need to be possessed of great manual dexterity to have what I consider a valid opinion on jk2's game balance. I'm saying that you need to have a thorough understanding of the game. The best method for finding someone who has a good understanding of a game is to find someone who has practiced enough to become successful in a proven tournament structure.

i.e.: If I wanted to talk to someone about Quake 1 game balance, I'd go talk to Thresh.

Keep in mind that game sales can be affected by the quality of mods available. I assure you that Counterstrike sold many, many copies of Halflife, just as Urban Terror probably did for Unreal Tournament. Enough so that they released CS and Urban Terror as their own retail products to capitalize on it.

My main argument is that, if an expansion is released, then the full toolset needs to be released so that mods aren't cut off at the knees. This will mean real money to LA in the long run if quality mods are produced.

[ksk h2o]

pffff, what a load of crap that was...

justifying poorly done SW by thaking the dinosaur industry's point of view.

wake up (http://www.the-underdogs.org/scratch.php)

We're supposed to be the consumers and DEMAND.

Mod makers are building the future of gaming.

And it looks like in this thread they are being told: "No, I like paying 50 bucks for buggy broken software and I dont care If you guys innovate, create and make something horrible into something fun for some people. I'll just say f*ck you and your work, I want to spend more on something thats even more broken, because I can. I'll also opt for protecting the suits that sold me this mod of a two year old game for money rather than back up people that are making it for free with not even the tools to do it properly. I'll also challenge your reasons for modding in the first place even if that has no merit whatsoever."

You guys have managed to sum up the horrible behavior of todays gaming industry and make it sound OK. Sorry but the defense of this point of view, coming from the consumers and not the companies, is baffling for me to listen to.

And what a horrible thing to say was those last few sentences Spider Al. You have obviously strayed far from the topic and have sucessfully replaced what gaming is all about with moneymaking.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by ksk h2o:
And what a horrible thing to say was those last few sentences Spider Al. You have obviously strayed far from the topic and have sucessfully replaced what gaming is all about with moneymaking.

Not only are you out of line, you obviously didn't bother to read my post thoroughly enough to understand it.

You, like many people before you, seem to reflexively confuse stating the obvious truth with supporting the unjust status quo.

Because people SEE that LEC doesn't care about its customers, doesn't mean they SUPPORT LEC. Just because people can see that most players aren't interested in the deeper aspects of gaming, doesn't mean they themselves shun those aspects.

And the question of whether and how much LEC cares about its customers is very much part of the topic being discussed.

As for the pro-gaming moneymaking statement, it's absolutely true and just... and rightly so. What could be better than making money out of something you already enjoy? Making money from something doesn't take the fun out of the game. In fact, it often adds an adrenal spice that keeps players interested when they might otherwise have moved on.

So just save your angry-hat for another day my son. I'm sure you're all tense over LEC's behaviour, but just take it out on them, mmkay? Don't look for enemies where there are none, just because you can't fight the real ones. Nobody here loves LEC.

Originally posted by ArtifeX:
Keep in mind that game sales can be affected by the quality of mods available. I assure you that Counterstrike sold many, many copies of Halflife

As I've said above in this thread, this did nothing for Half-Life itself. There was no explosion in HL vanilla player-numbers due to CStrike's success. CS deserved to succeed because it was great, but it wasn't the saviour of HL. It was only the saviour of CS. ;)

Originally posted by ArtifeX:
My main argument is that, if an expansion is released, then the full toolset needs to be released so that mods aren't cut off at the knees. This will mean real money to LA in the long run if quality mods are produced.

Indeed, it would be great if the toolset was released, it would help mods and mod-makers. However an expansion could have a positive effect even if the toolset was not released.

[ksk h2o]

Uh Vader?

I'm not your son. :)

You and I obviously do not share the same concepts on gaming and moneymaking. I try to respect other peoples philosophies, but I wouldn't stereotype and apply a particular philosophy to all intense gamers, which was what that last post did.

Stating the obvious truth, in this thread, has turned into a means of discouragement. Rather than saying "this is how it is, and this is what wee need to challenge" we are being told; "this is how it is, so theres no point in fighting it... your cause is hopeless... uh... my... son"

Read my post whichever way you want it; either as a tongue-in-cheek smirking pointer or as a yelling two year old's rants, but dont go telling me I am "out of line" becaue you'd be taking yourself way too seriously.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Spider AL

...
As I've said above in this thread, this did nothing for Half-Life itself. There was no explosion in HL vanilla player-numbers due to CStrike's success. CS deserved to succeed because it was great, but it wasn't the saviour of HL. It was only the saviour of CS. ;)

I was attempting to link sales of a game to the availability of good mods for same. I wasn't talking about CS increasing the number of players for HL DM. LA's accountants wouldn't give two sh*ts whether the sale came from someone wanting to play the official version or a mod--it's still a sale.

Indeed, it would be great if the toolset was released, it would help mods and mod-makers. However an expansion could have a positive effect even if the toolset was not released.

A positive effect for you; a negative for anyone playing or creating mods.

[FatalStrike]

Atri is correct when he state that mods can help a games money making potential. The more you get out of a game the more likely you are to look forward to future games made by the same company. I for example am frothing at the mouth for some upcoming FPS games, because of the experince I have had with them in the past. I will put any future Raven-LEC joint projects on the bottom of my list in the future, simply because I know that I will get more from other games then I will from anything these two make in the future.

Spider is correct when he says that mods did nothing for half life. However he didn't go into the whole "what will customers do in the future" line of thought. He is also correct in stating that an expansion would have a positive effect on the JKII community as a whole, even if it doesn't for Mod makers. That being said I don't believe any postive effect can last without the release of crucial tools.

I will also point out that Spider is not support LEC money crazed ways he was stating them as a reality that must be considered when addressing certain questions.

Now for heavens sake lets spell out what the conclusions of this thread are so we can end this circular discussion.


1- Expansion pack would be good.

2- Expansion pack + tools for Mod makers would be better

3- LEC is a company that has paid us little attention as of late.

4- FatalStrike is waiting for Unreal 2

5- You will also buy Unreal 2

OK time for coffee.

[opusvi]

Well, I wouldn't say that I particularly love LEA right now but I'll revise my opinion when I get my hands on the new, ever so tasty Sam & Max game. While I don't think I'd particularly want to invite any of them over to my house for dinner, I sure wish I could trade my flagging AOLTW shares for stock in anything Lucas-related.

KSK, if you want to make a more cogent defense of mods you ought to post something more relevant than some convoluted, whiny, technopunk, marxist diatribe about "scratch" software. Although I shouldn't be doing your research for you, articles like the following support the viability of mods more effectively:

http://www.redherring.com/mag/issue96/1370019137.html

http://www.business2.com/articles/mag/0,1640,43489%7C2,FF.html


Artifex is right in pointing out that CS shipped many boxes of HL. But Half-Life was an average game who only benefitted from an above average mod, CS to extend its expiration date. Spider is right in pointing out that CS survived on its own merit and only incidentally helped HL. Because again, HL was a essentially a paint-by-numbers game. Thinking man's Quake? Er...No. More like Quake with big nasty bugs in it. That canadian guy who made CS in his spare time didn't even charge for his mod and doesn't to this day. Do you know how he makes his money? By essentially pressuring Valve to pay him for doing work on CS due to the profits he brings in for HL sales.

Mod makers might possibly be the future of gaming, but right now they're nothing but an amusement. All this talk of "keeping the community alive" doesn't change the fact that JK2 expansion packs will sell by the truckload. JK2 sells for SP first and MP as a distant second. SW fans who want a better MP experience will just have to wait until SW:Galaxies.

As a matter of fact, I don't particularly like paying $50 for the average game even if I can afford it, and I'm sorry if that's too steep for your pockets. But that's what it takes for companies to recoup their losses. You may not like the business model but that doesn't change anything about it any more than complaining about snow makes it go away.

I'm not telling anyone to go and "f" themselves. I think that in all truth, Artifex and his contemporaries probably have good reasons, motivation and means to make their projects come to life. But for the most part, and I speak for the majority of game buyers in this regard, I'm not all that interested in what they have to sell/rent/give away for free. On his own description of ProMOD, Artifex clearly states that his "is a system that rewards great player skill, and conversely punishes those of lesser abilities." :(

Well, being one of those MAJORITY of players with decidely "lesser abilities", who doesn't like MP to begin with, why is it that I'm supposed to be popping cartwheels about his idea exactly? Not that I don't respect Artifex's obvious skill and technical know-how and such, but this is just not something I'm ever going to want. Will most n00bs want to download a mod that will allow old-timers like him and Spyder to more easily cream them in MP? Do you think they'd ever want to pay for that? :confused:


(http://www.3dactionplanet.com/features/q3dmhellchick/small/)


Actually, I don't think that challenging someone's reasons for modding is wholly without merit. In fact, I think it's essential to realize that it's not. I mean, you're basically taking someone else's intellectual property and fudging with it (for better or worse) and then distributing it as your own work. How is that different from re-writing the end to a book because you like it better and then give out copies to anyone who wanted it? Or from covering a song from an artist because you didn't like the way they sang and then giving it away for free? It's copyright violation, trademark infringement, and arguably steps all over reverse-engineering laws and standards. Oh, but this is done under the auspices of the companies who make them. Ah, well... If Raven et al are going to look the other way while you rip off their product then I suppose it's all right...

On principle, do I approve of mods? Short answer is yes with an if and the long answer is no, with a but. From a player perspective, heck yes if you can provide something interesting to me, like the Battle of Hoth or AOTC conversions. However, if it was my company or I was a shareholder, of course not. But if I can inherently profit from them then I'd make an exception. Telling me that nasty, bad capitalist scum make the world a nasty, bad place to live isn't going to change the fact that it's the way things are.

I doubt Artifex or anyone else would truly turn down a big fat advance from LEA and we could only hope that he gets an offer and has the opportunity to prove me wrong. But he's still making an unrequested, unauthorized, voluntary amount of extraordinary work on his own. Success alone should in fact be measured by the fact that he's not being sued. If people like Promod and it does well, then great more power to him.

But that doesn't change the fact that an expansion pack which makes mods harder (or even prohibitive) to put out will doubtlessly sell 100K's of copies. CS ripped off HL which in turn mooched from it to make profits. But HL was a mediocre game at worst and needed that shot in the arm to stay afloat. Lest we forget, this is indeed STAR WARS. Trust me when I say this, with their history, brand name recognition, multi-million dollar marketing and product placement, SW can do just fine without modders. JK2 sells not necessarily on the strength of its games as much as on the strength of STAR WARS.


Point being that little 14 year-old Johnnie Gamer from Riverdale, Missouri will still hop on over to Walmart and buy JK2: Super Mario Jedi or whatever LEA decides to sell us next. Whether it's derivative, too linear, boring, buggy, is completely besides the point. George Lucas could crap in a brightly colored box, shrinkwrap it, slap a $49.99 sticker on it, call it an expansion pack and I can assure you that droves of eager fanboys will rush to stores to get one. You may not like it, but again that's the way it is. It's a fact KSK. The majority of us who are stupid mindless drones of the evil capitalist hegemony (or whatever your commie epithet du jour is), will still buy into their twisted schemes of oligarchic marketplace domination and blah blah blah...

However, if anyone can tell me of a good, i.e. professional quality, mod (preferably SP) that I'd possibly be interested in, I'll definitely look it over and see if it's worthwhile. Heck, if it's something good enough to be in an expansion pack, I promise to PayPal the author for it. :D

[ArtifeX]

Man, another entertaining post from opusvi! Keep 'em coming!

One quick thing though:

It really isn't unlawful to make mods. It's only unlawful to make mods and then sell them for profit without the consent of the company (LA).

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by ksk h2o:
I try to respect other peoples philosophies,

Ah yes, because posting something like, umm:

Originally posted by ksk h2o:
pffff, what a load of crap that was...

Is obviously respectful of the point of view of others, isn't it.

Or not. Frankly, out of line.

Originally posted by ksk h2o:
but I wouldn't stereotype and apply a particular philosophy to all intense gamers, which was what that last post did.

Paranoid. The last sentences in my post were explanatory of the reasons one might wish to become "expert" at a game, for the edification of Opusvi who claimed not to see the benefit of becoming expert at the game. I listed some possible benefits, hence the last words "those are some of the benefits." All you need to do is read more carefully... Almost everything you've posted in reaction to a 'perceived stereotyping' has been of no use to either you or anyone else.

Originally posted by ksk h2o:
Stating the obvious truth, in this thread, has turned into a means of discouragement. Rather than saying "this is how it is, and this is what wee need to challenge" we are being told; "this is how it is, so theres no point in fighting it...

Nobody has said anything of the sort, quite frankly. And just because people haven't flocked quickly enough to your particular brand of fire n' brimstone "fight LEC on the beaches" banner, doesn't make them conchie pacifist traitors now, does it?

Originally posted by ksk h2o:
Read my post whichever way you want it; either as a tongue-in-cheek smirking pointer or as a yelling two year old's rants, but dont go telling me I am "out of line"

Actually, you're still pretty much out of line. :tsk:

Originally posted by Artifex:
I was attempting to link sales of a game to the availability of good mods for same. I wasn't talking about CS increasing the number of players for HL DM. LA's accountants wouldn't give two sh*ts whether the sale came from someone wanting to play the official version or a mod--it's still a sale.

Of course this is correct Arti. What I was remarking on was the fact that regardless of whether mods succeed or fail, they are rarely the "saviours" of the games whose engines they use. If a 'CS for JO' was created, it wouldn't save JO, just as CS didn't save HL. Thus, what is good for JO mods is not inextricably linked to what is good for JO.

Originally posted by Artifex:
A positive effect for you; a negative for anyone playing or creating mods.

Well a positive effect for me and many others, but the important point is that what is good for modmakers is not necessarily good for anyone else. JO players, for example. So the reverse of your statement is also true.

An expansion could favour us both, only one of us, or neither of us. But the possibility that it may have a positive effect outweighs any such risks, since both our communities seem to be fading away right now.

Opus, once again I agree with most of your points.

And Fatal, you're good at this succint mediation thingy! Keep it up.

[ksk h2o]

Actually there is a large difference between respecting philosophies and respecting everything said. The post I was refefing to as a "load of crap" was mainly the post of opusvi which had mostly to do with it was acceptable for todays companies to act in the illogical and self destructive methods of operation (hence the industry-wide crisis and bankruptcies). So that had nothing to do with any philosophy that could be respected. I dont know if I need to write novels for posts like you do in order to make my posts clearer but just for the sake of clarity and redundancy: "illogical and self destructive methods of business" (I quoted myself, yes, :)saved you the work there) can not qualify as a philosophy which I could respect, just like the link of the scratchware manifesto: can only be be classified as propaganda and aggresive activism and not as a philosophy either. So my comments of the "load of crap" were directed at such. If it was "stating the obvious" and nothing else then it was quite a useless and redundant post anyway. Stating the obvious is by its very definition redundant and pointless.

People are entitled to shoot down the activist link I had posted. And them not agreeing with it has nothing to do with them being, what was it "conchie pacifists," the reason for which I had posted the link is the only point of criticism here not wheather or not they agree with it.


And yes stating the obvious truth was used as discouragement in this thread, there aren't many reasons one would state the obvious as it would be a waste of time.

"paranoid, out of line, ..." I suggest we take direct attacks to character and behavoir to a private channel since these points of view and weather or not you think I'm out of "your line" bare no significance whatsoever to me.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Spider AL
Of course this is correct Arti. What I was remarking on was the fact that regardless of whether mods succeed or fail, they are rarely the "saviours" of the games whose engines they use. If a 'CS for JO' was created, it wouldn't save JO, just as CS didn't save HL. Thus, what is good for JO mods is not inextricably linked to what is good for JO.

Come on man, don't argue minutiae. You know what I'm getting at here.

Well a positive effect for me and many others, but the important point is that what is good for modmakers is not necessarily good for anyone else. JO players, for example. So the reverse of your statement is also true.

An expansion could favour us both, only one of us, or neither of us. But the possibility that it may have a positive effect outweighs any such risks, since both our communities seem to be fading away right now.
...

You make me weary...and remind me of some philosophy majors that I've known that will argue until they're blue in the face just because they enjoy it. :/

Your arguments are extremely anti-mod. That's what got me started on this whole argument in the first place. You don't care about how the mod community fares because you've spent all of your time mastering the vanilla game, and are probably very insecure about whether your skillset will transfer over into mods if the mods become more popular than your current game. This is compounded by the fact that ProMod is aimed directly at serious, competitive players and the tournaments they participate in. You don't want this to happen, so you're here in the forums trying throw support behind an expansion pack that would be released without tools so that your flagging official version of the game will get a much needed shot in the arm. At the same time, this would cripple mods and mod-makers and thereby forcing players back into the official version if they want to play JO anymore at all. This would be a best-case scenario for you.

Were you truly as magnanimous as you're trying to make yourself seem, you would have stopped this argument long ago by throwing your support behind an expansion pack that would be good for all players and modders, not just you and your ilk. You have stated numerous times that you care nothing for the mod community, and only want to see an increase of players for the regular game. Your attitude is one of one-sidedness and malice towards a group of people who have proven that they care much more about the future of the game than you do (witness the donation of months of mod-maker's time--for no pecuniary return, nor promise of one). We are fixing and expanding on the community, while your influence is one myopia and selfishness.

I truly hope that no one in a position to control the fate of jk2 has read your posts and agrees with you.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

I'm relying on an expansion in order to achieve my modding aims. You see Artifex, your arguments are extremely biased, you only actually care about the multiplayer. JK1 was a great game because it had awesome MP as well as awesome SP.

Now, believe it or not if Raven were to be the ones to make an expansion there is a good chance they would use non-compiled data for some of the singleplayer game. What's so good about this? Well it means a greater proportion of the singleplayer game would be moddable, allowing for more unique singleplayer mission.

Lets look at this even more, MOTS expanded on JK1s cog verbs, adding more functions and generally allowing a lot more customization, the MOTS engine allows quite a lot of enhancements such as extra weapons, greater capacity for player-input etc. Did these enhancements kill the JK1 modding community? NO. Why should they?

How is an expansion pack going to affect the JK1 base, an expansion would likely be a seperate game much in the same way that MOTS was, which merely requires the JK2 cd. Within a few months of an expansion release, all copies of JK2 would be bundled with the expansion. I honestly don't see the problem.

The vanilla JK2 players are accused of being uneasy about having to transfer our skill to a different play-type, this is probably true. But it seems like the modding community (if Artifex's view is truly representative of it) is afraid of a little bit of code debugging and tweaking in the MINOR POSSIBILITY that an expansion makes changes to the base code. Modders believe that JK2 editing has developed to such an extent that it would suffer from IMPROVEMENTS to the game engine and code? Reality Check: There have been zero revolutionary mods for JK2, with the possible exception of Hydroball were it to still be in development. Raven aren't so evil that they would make all old mods completely incompatible with new code.

TAKE A CHANCE.

[MrCrusher]

Opusvi,

I'm not telling anyone to go and "f" themselves. I think that in all truth, Artifex and his contemporaries probably have good reasons, motivation and means to make their projects come to life. But for the most part, and I speak for the majority of game buyers in this regard, I'm not all that interested in what they have to sell/rent/give away for free. On his own description of ProMOD, Artifex clearly states that his "is a system that rewards great player skill, and conversely punishes those of lesser abilities."

Well, being one of those MAJORITY of players with decidely "lesser abilities", who doesn't like MP to begin with, why is it that I'm supposed to be popping cartwheels about his idea exactly? Not that I don't respect Artifex's obvious skill and technical know-how and such, but this is just not something I'm ever going to want. Will most n00bs want to download a mod that will allow old-timers like him and Spyder to more easily cream them in MP? Do you think they'd ever want to pay for that?


For someone who loves to here themselves talk, you aught to take some time to make sense.

A game without competition is nothing more than a pillow fight - a whole lot of puffing and fluffing (kinda like your last post). Online gaming is 99.9% competition nothing more - nothing less. ProMod is primarily intending to improve the competitive quality of JK2, thus the game overall. Improving JK2 is in the best interests of moders, developers and ultimately gamers alike.

And please stop presuming that you are speaking for the Majority of gamers. You speak for yourself only. Using presumptuous qualifiers to prop-up your argument is feeble to say the least.

You seem to have blurred the lines between rationalization, pontification, presumption and blatant supposition.... In all honesty that's an achievement in itself.

Take this not as a flame but as merely constructive criticism from an average gamer that does not wish you to be his gaming representative ;) ;) ;)

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
I'm relying on an expansion in order to achieve my modding aims. You see Artifex, your arguments are extremely biased, you only actually care about the multiplayer. JK1 was a great game because it had awesome MP as well as awesome SP.

This is completely untrue. When I call for "all tools" to be released, I'm talking about the single player source as well.

Now, believe it or not if Raven were to be the ones to make an expansion there is a good chance they would use non-compiled data for some of the singleplayer game. What's so good about this? Well it means a greater proportion of the singleplayer game would be moddable, allowing for more unique singleplayer mission.

Lets look at this even more, MOTS expanded on JK1s cog verbs, adding more functions and generally allowing a lot more customization, the MOTS engine allows quite a lot of enhancements such as extra weapons, greater capacity for player-input etc. Did these enhancements kill the JK1 modding community? NO. Why should they?
Because if new animations were added to the expansion pack without the animation tools being released, then all jk2 mods would be utterly incapable of duplicating the features(animations) of the expansion pack. What if they added a true double-sided lightsaber stance and a dual saber stance? What if they renamed some of the existing animations? That's not some minor code fix to support the new feature. That's totally impossible without the tools.

How is an expansion pack going to affect the JK1 base, an expansion would likely be a seperate game much in the same way that MOTS was, which merely requires the JK2 cd. Within a few months of an expansion release, all copies of JK2 would be bundled with the expansion. I honestly don't see the problem.

If after 3 pages of this thread, you still don't see the problem, then I can't help you.

The vanilla JK2 players are accused of being uneasy about having to transfer our skill to a different play-type, this is probably true. But it seems like the modding community (if Artifex's view is truly representative of it) is afraid of a little bit of code debugging and tweaking in the MINOR POSSIBILITY that an expansion makes changes to the base code. Modders believe that JK2 editing has developed to such an extent that it would suffer from IMPROVEMENTS to the game engine and code? Reality Check: There have been zero revolutionary mods for JK2, with the possible exception of Hydroball were it to still be in development. Raven aren't so evil that they would make all old mods completely incompatible with new code.

TAKE A CHANCE.
I'm not worried about minor changes. I'm worried about impossible changes. The one I mentioned above falls into that category.

Argh. Have you actually read this thread? Maybe you need to reread it. Nobody here is afraid that the jk2 modding community is going to suffer from the basic game being improved through an expansion pack. What is a problem is if these improvements fall outside the capabilities of the current released toolset. That means that no current mods will be able to duplicate the new features. That will lead to many mod makers receiving emails like, "Wow, I like your mod, but I can't use the cool new saber moves from the expansion pack in it, so I never play it. Can you put those in?"

The mod author's answer: "Sorry, it's impossible without the animation tools."

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

You also seemed to have missed my point. You seem to equate "expansion" with "mod", now OBVIOUSLY if an expansion were released which was just a mod and had new features such as animations which can't be duplicated it might be a problem.

But expansions very rarely work this way, they are either standalone games or they build on the existing features of the original game.

So what if they add new animations? BIG DEAL. If you are really that bothered about animations decompile the model viewer and work out the algorithm which allows it to display the animations. Then work backwards and make your own rudimentary animation tool, JK1 had one after-all.

The problem with this community is that we keep expecting Raven or LEC to do everything for us, this community has a severe lack of ingenuity. Where are all the user-made tools to assist on mod-making?

What gives you this strange idea that Raven are so STUPID that they would even CONSIDER messing with the saber after the uproar after two patches. The most likely shape an expansion would take is as follows:

Singleplayer: New Missions/Storyline, possibly new features, force powers etc.

Multiplayer: New Maps, possibly a new game-type, NO GAMEPLAY CHANGES.

Don't you see? Just about everyone is against gameplay changes to multiplayer, that's the modders job. An expansion pack is supposed to EXPAND on what already exists without changing the basic shape of the game.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Artifex:
Come on man, don't argue minutiae. You know what I'm getting at here.

Actually Arti, my point was pivotal. You are constantly predicting doom and gloom effects from an expansion and despite the many and varied ways I've put my point, you still don't seem to grasp the fundamental fact that an expansion has a chance of helping the JO community. A community which is dying already. If you are interested in the JO community, I'm sure you want what's best for it.

If, on the other hand you're only interested in the modding side of the community, which we've already established is unlikely to help the rest of the JO community just as CS never helped the HL community... then that's rather short-sighted and provincial, isn't it.

Originally posted by Artifex:
You make me weary...and remind me of some philosophy majors that I've known that will argue until they're blue in the face just because they enjoy it. :/

I wondered whether you would become slightly unpleasant, Arti... I must say I'm saddened.

I debate, because I believe in what I'm debating about. And frankly, as long as you are here posting replies and comments about my posts, I will continue to reply to you. If you're accusing me of delighting in argument for its own sake, then you are assuredly accusing yourself as well as you have been posting here longer than I, and your viewpoint is far more inflexible than mine.

Originally posted by Artifex:
Your arguments are extremely anti-mod.

Actually mods are irrelevant to my arguments, as I've explained to you before. I don't play your mod, I don't play any mods. There are many people who don't play mods. Your portion of the community is not the whole community, nor is it the only part of the community that matters. I care about JO. That's what I care about. It is that simple.

I don't care about Unreal Tournament. Does that make me a bad person? No. Mods are separate from the games they use. They are different games, without the box or price tag.

I care... about JO.

Originally posted by Artifex:
You don't care about how the mod community fares because you've spent all of your time mastering the vanilla game, and are probably very insecure about whether your skillset will transfer over into mods if the mods become more popular than your current game.

Ah, Artifex the amateur psychoanalyst. I could say "You're wrong, the reason I became the player I am is because I was willing to adapt to all patches, 1.05 would be no different, whatever its contents." But, you would probably choose not to believe me anyway. Your head, your rules, and your own prerogative.

Besides, I find "you only care about your own silly vanilla game you bad bad man" tack somewhat rich, coming from someone who throughout his arguments and despite a protestation to the contrary, only seems to care about how an expansion would affect his own mod.

Not that there's anything particularly bad about that... but there's nothing bad about caring about the vanilla game either. QED. We're both good guys. ;)

Originally posted by Artifex:
This is compounded by the fact that ProMod is aimed directly at serious, competitive players and the tournaments they participate in. You don't want this to happen

"Ahh! SPID0r si out to GET ME!!!1"

I realise you've spent a lot of time making your mod and expended a lot of effort to make it your vision of what the game should be like... but acting as if Promod is the only possible saviour for JO is both pre-emptive and somewhat arrogant.

I'm sure Promod is very good and fun, but the fact remains that it's your game. It's your interpretation of what the game should be. This does not mean it's guaranteed to improve on JO Vanilla.

And I'm not out to get you, btw. I have no doubt your mod is good, and deserves to succeed. But I am interested in JO vanilla.

Originally posted by Artifex:
you're here in the forums trying throw support behind an expansion pack that would be released without tools so that your flagging official version of the game will get a much needed shot in the arm. At the same time, this would cripple mods and mod-makers and thereby forcing players back into the official version if they want to play JO anymore at all. This would be a best-case scenario for you.

You persist in attempting to paint me personally as some sort of mod-eating monster who hates mods and modders...

But for the final time, The question of mods survival is separate from the question of an expansion's merit in that the tools you want could be included in the expansion, or not, and that would not affect the expansion's effect on any other portion of the community except modders. Now it would be regrettable if modders were inconvenienced by an expansion, but since the game is dying anyway, don't you think it's worth the risk?

My portion of the community could be damaged by an expansion just as easily as yours could. I'm willing to take the risk, however. It's worth it.

Originally posted by Artifex:
Were you truly as magnanimous as you're trying to make yourself seem, you would have stopped this argument long ago by throwing your support behind an expansion pack that would be good for all players and modders, not just you and your ilk.

Hmm. Have I, or have I not stated categorically on no less than three occasions that an expansion that favoured everyone would be an ideal situation? Yes, I have.

Read more carefully, please. You missed it no less than three times.

Originally posted by Artifex:
Your attitude is one of one-sidedness and malice towards a group of people who have proven that they care much more about the future of the game than you do (witness the donation of months of mod-maker's time--for no pecuniary return, nor promise of one). We are fixing and expanding on the community, while your influence is one myopia and selfishness.

While mods are good and wholesome, you are not "fixing" the community. Mods are standalone products that merely use the engine as a base. To fix the community would require official sanction and official patches.

Nor do mod-makers care about the game more than dedicated players. Mod-makers think they can make something better or different, players play the game daily and grow very fond of it. On the other hand, players do not necessarily love the game more than mod-makers.

You seem to be saying that modmakers are in some way superior to other people. This is, of course, untrue. We are all equal.

And, sorry, but "malice?" :confused: Have I not stated categorically that since I don't play mods, I have no negative nor any very positive feelings on the matter?

As far as mods are concerned, I'm thoroughly neutral. Sorry if my neutrality offends you, but that's the way things are.

Originally posted by Artifex:
I truly hope that no one in a position to control the fate of jk2 has read your posts and agrees with you.

Well well, how vindictive and childish. I do not share your sentiments however, and hope that if anyone's opinions are taken into account by Raven or LEC, I hope yours are, as well as mine and everyone else's.

Originally posted by ksk h2o:
I suggest we take direct attacks to character and behavoir to a private channel since these points of view and weather or not you think I'm out of "your line" bare no significance whatsoever to me.

You confuse personal attacks with descriptions of your blatant behaviour on this forum. "what a load of crap" is a good example of insulting, though.

And I'm sorry, but why would I want to get involved in an argument with you in a private channel? I don't particularly enjoy reading your unpleasant posts here.

Originally posted by ksk h2o:
If it was "stating the obvious" and nothing else then it was quite a useless and redundant post anyway. Stating the obvious is by its very definition redundant and pointless.

Well actually, many people, you for instance, seem to be either wilfully or unknowingly blind to the obvious.

You seem to find it so threatening that you claim it's attacking you. Go fig, I certainly can't ascribe any logic to such a sentiment.

Detritic, good posts, I agree with most of what you say.

[zerowingzero]

Spider, from what i'm reading, you want an expansion pack, not to fix the game in particualar, but i'm sure you would, but to in effect spark new interest and new players.
But using past patches as what to expect from the future, chances are The game won't be ballanced and/or as fun as it could be.
Now you talk about taking a chance with a new expansion, in hopes that it will spark interest and raven might tweak the game in a positive way, now considering that chance, lets look at the other "chances" of patches 1.03 and 1.04 (I am calling them "chances" because they were apparently not tested well enough to be a sure thing), these may have attracted new players out of curiosity, but, how many of them stayed, and morever, how many of the previous players remained?
I am supporting mods not out of some personal reasoning, but that with mods, the game has hopes of being ballanced and fun, likes of which from a patch i don't expect to happin.
While a mod will probably won't attract as many new players as an expansion would, it would probably keep the ones that are still there.
Now the question is, do you want to attract a whole lot of new players that will be turned off by game inballances and lack of inovation over other games, or keeping the existing community frm dieing off?

[opusvi]

Crusher, I was only trying to speak from the pov of someone who does not play JK2 online on any kind of frequent basis. Were you assuming that I was speaking for the player with average skills who regardless spends at least some amount of time on JK2 MP? If that was the impression I gave, I should clear up that I wasn't. I mean to say that I was one of the majority of players with lesser abilities; I also happen not to engage in MP gameplay.

But I still maintain that I'm right in pointing out that the majority of JK2 owners do not in fact play online MP. If this is not indeed the case (which I doubt) then obviously my pov would be a minority. But for most JK2 players, Promod is not a vital concern. JK, for now, sells and appeals to consumers primarily on the basis of STAR WARS, not the strength or weaknesses of MP gameplay. If it had no MP gameplay, I can assure you that JK2 would have had robust sales nonetheless. Moreover, JK2 MP is free for users so LEA has little incentive to perfect it as opposed to working on SW:Galaxies which will incidentally include fighting, though hopefully not for the sole advantage of people with fast reflexes.

I jumped into this thread because the conversation here is mostly between hard-core gamers who by their own admission, have a far superior skill set than the average player. Some of them seem to think this makes them uniquely qualified to judge critical aspects of gameplay. I disagree. I think that goes back to what Spider was saying about making the game fun and what fun means to people. MP debates about fun don't mean much to me because I don't play.

I would doubtlessly agree that only someone like Artifex could possibly be qualified to decide whether or not thrusting with an open line should somehow deflect a high outside, be followed by a compound parry from the fourth position, and then have the optional right to ripost.

Promod is an MP mod only and will not affect the SP experience. More importantly, I fail to understand how a mod which by the author's own admission makes gameplay more demanding and benefits players who already have an edge in experience by making them more powerful and "punishes" poor players can make my SP experience of JK2 better? Frankly, I find it hard to believe that making the game's combat mechanics significantly more difficult so that an even smaller percentage of players can dominate over everyone else will have a positive effect on the community at large. That is unless of course, only the hard core gamers like Artifex and Spider are indeed meant to benefit from this.

I'm assuming that you instead meant to say that it benefits the game as a brand name and thus will ship more boxes of product. Well, I could see why LEA would care, but not why I should be all that concerned. My main interest is the expansion pack which is going to come out anyways and which will sell regardless of your opinion, mine or that of anyone besides some Wharton MBA in a $2000 suit who does the cost-benefit analysis. And if anyone thinks that my comment that George Lucas could crap in a box and sell it as a game product was mere hyperbole, you should pick up a copy of Force Commander.

If they include anything interesting in the way of MP when JK2: Kyle Kills Some Ewoks, is released then that's great for online players. And it will be even better if this coveted modmaking toolset is released, both for those who want it the vanilla MP game and and those among them who play online mods. However, it doesn't matter to JK2 buyers, like myself and many others, who do not do so.

Saying that 99.9% of online gaming is competition is just stating the obvious and I fail to see what it has to do with my argument. Also, more interesting question is just what is it that the other 0.01% think they're doing? Maybe some of them have indeed are indeed on a "Bedtime Battles:Pillowfighting Mod" server. I've been online for a while now and though I have six different games which I could play competitively online, I don't. I have many different reasons running the gamut from my admittedly poor skill set, poor internet connection, time limitations, lack of interesting MP gameplay, etc... It's disingenous to simply assume that the majority of JK2 players are eager to take each other's heads off online for the sheer fun of it.

While you didn't like my post with it's ingenious combination of "rationalization, pontification, presumption and blatant supposition", you haven't actually told me why you disagreed with them. If you honestly wanted to give me serious constructive criticism I'd really appreciate it. It could be that I'm not reading it right, but all I seem to get out of your post is that you think I'm stupid and I should shut up. Needless to say, I disagree...but that might be simply because I am in fact quite stupid and thus should indeed shut up. Hmmm... :eek:

If I truly loved to hear myself talk, I'd get a job in radio. Also, thank you for pointing out that your post was not, in fact, a flame. See, I was really confused :confused: about that point, since all those pejorative comments and personal attacks really threw me off for a loop. It's a good thing you cleared up that confusion for me! :)

[MrCrusher]

opusvi,

Online gamers and games are currently setting most industry trends. Most major releases are internet dependent. To presume otherwise is nonsense.

Actually, ProMod makes gameplay far easier, your only assuming it makes game play harder. Get a bit of playtime, then let me know what you think. Artiflex has removed randomness and luck from JK2mp and replaced it with control, intent, and cause-effect. Greater control is nothing more than efficiency and an easier time playing, thus more fun. :) To play ProMod you do not need fast reflexes so much as intelligent strategy. Reflexes come second to strategy. You assume to much. And it is this simple assumption of yours that leaves your opinion hollow and senseless - albeit humorous.

"Stupid..." did I think that?! I consider someone that has so much fun rationalizing about nothing far from stupid. To fill so much space with air is truly an art. ;)

Any expansion to JK2 will most likely be single player. This thread may be much to do about nothing. If LA and Raven do touch upon JK2mp then I'll "presume" this time, or take a guess, that they'll give us online players what we want - a combat system done properly - alla ProMod - with a few new maps.

In all honesty I had hoped that JK2 would be an improvement on Raven's Heretic2 combat system. Many features were added but the fundamental core of the JK2 combat system fell short with many flaws. Artiflex has fixed that. I can now only hope that LA and Raven will take an honest look at these improvements.

Flame or no, you set yourself up when you pretend to know something you don't. ;)

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Of all the arrogant things i've seen on these forums, the previous post comes very close to topping the list.

Opusvi's post wasn't about Promod, it mentioned it because its a popular example nothing more, believe it or not some people's lives don't revolve around plugging Promod at every possible moment.

MrCrusher, your own argument is self-defeating. You say Promod makes gameplay easier, yet in the same paragraph you say that it emphasises control, accuracy and strategy. These are precisely the factors which seperate a good player from a bad one. Your argument is essentially saying it makes it easier for good players to win, which is precisely the point opusvi was making. His point was that this isn't necessarily a good thing, lower-skilled players NEED some aspect of the game to grasp onto from which they can elevate their own poorer skills.

As a "more skilled" player, I get increasingly frustrated by excessive use of force push and pull. But here's the thing, without this one ever-present obstacle that even the weaker players can use, the good players would just win every game without breaking a sweat. It may not be "fair" for good players that weaker players hold a lethal weapon against them no matter their skill level, but it gives the weaker players something to work with.

You talk about reflex and strategy, how in promod strategy takes the centre stage. What exactly is your point? Ask any "elite" player and they'll say that overall strategy plays a far more important role than the odd kill you may get from superior reflexes. I would say that my reflexes are pretty fast in terms of JK2 Guns, but I still get beaten by players with higher accuracy and better strategy. So I would say that reflexes take a 3rd place not just 2nd.

As it stands this "randomness and luck" talk I hear so much about means absolutely nothing to me and i'm guessing many other CTF players, we've spent a long time figuring out just when each attack works and how effective they are, i've yet to hear one complaint along the lines of "arghhh stupid randomness meant he took less damage", in fact the only noticable random factor in Guns gaming are the spreads of the stormie rifle, repeater and flechette.

On a final note, all the comments myself and Spider_AL have made are based on opinion, or logical derivation from known facts. Yet MrCrusher's post whilst having many inaccuracies is put across as fact, in fact it seems his entire purpose of posting was to try and prove Opusvi wrong. It reminds me of a little thought I came up with a couple of months ago, I didn't think i'd have a real opportunity to use it so soon.

"The world is just a forum of people waiting for the opportunity to prove each other wrong"

[MrCrusher]

DeTRiTiC-iQ,
Did I say, think or imply the word "fact" somewhere. My previous post was 100% unadulterated opinion. There is no right or wrong in opinion... just plain ol opinion. Maybe my opinion sounded a bit to forceful, but I type what I type without malice, with an occasional harmless fireball thrown in. Sorry to have hit or... torched a nerve. :)

There is no fact, or right and wrong in a forum - only opinion.

My apologies if I upset you.


P.S.
believe it or not some people's lives don't revolve around plugging Promod at every possible moment.
Actually, I was thinking of challenging Artifex to a duel.... Once I've cut off his head I shall become supreme Ruler of ProMod. :devsmoke:

[zerowingzero]

Originally posted by MrCrusher


P.S.

Actually, I was thinking of challenging Artifex to a duel.... Once I've cut off his head I shall become supreme Ruler of ProMod. :devsmoke:

That would be true if ArtifeX hadent lost his edge from programing too much :(

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
You also seemed to have missed my point. You seem to equate "expansion" with "mod", now OBVIOUSLY if an expansion were released which was just a mod and had new features such as animations which can't be duplicated it might be a problem.

But expansions very rarely work this way, they are either standalone games or they build on the existing features of the original game.

So what if they add new animations? BIG DEAL. If you are really that bothered about animations decompile the model viewer and work out the algorithm which allows it to display the animations. Then work backwards and make your own rudimentary animation tool, JK1 had one after-all.

The problem with this community is that we keep expecting Raven or LEC to do everything for us, this community has a severe lack of ingenuity. Where are all the user-made tools to assist on mod-making?

What gives you this strange idea that Raven are so STUPID that they would even CONSIDER messing with the saber after the uproar after two patches. The most likely shape an expansion would take is as follows:

Singleplayer: New Missions/Storyline, possibly new features, force powers etc.

Multiplayer: New Maps, possibly a new game-type, NO GAMEPLAY CHANGES.

Don't you see? Just about everyone is against gameplay changes to multiplayer, that's the modders job. An expansion pack is supposed to EXPAND on what already exists without changing the basic shape of the game.

Believe it or not, I totally agree with the last part of this post. If the expand on the game, as you say, rather than changing it and making it inaccessible to modders, then that would be great for everybody IMO. We'll have to wait and see what happens--if anything.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by zerowingzero


That would be true if ArtifeX hadent lost his edge from programing too much :(


LOL. How true. Lazarous and I have some good saber battles that are give and take for the most part, but Laz always seems to end up with the higher score. :D

It's pretty ironic that I started coding to make the game more fun for me to play, but the end result is that I'm playing less now that I ever did. I will say that when I do play, it's much more enjoyable.

Let me clarify something to everyone:

I made ProMod to increase the depth and accuracy of the game. This makes outcomes much more predictable, no matter what your skill level is. I did not intend to make it less accessible to new players. All facets of the game which are more complex than normal have very clear visible feedback that lets you know what's going on. The CSC, the Bonus Meters, and now the Weapon Proficiency Alerts and the Jetpack Fuel Gauge. You'll always know why something happened, bad or good.

If there is anyone out there who feels that ProMod is too inaccessible to new players, then email me an explanation as to why, and I'll try to deal with the oversight.

One final thing: you do not have to be highly skilled to do well in ProMod. You only have to be more skilled than the person that you're fighting against. No, you should not expect to jump into a ProMod server and start wiping the floor with people your first time out. There's a learning curve with any new situation, game, whatever. I've done my best to make that learning curve as quick and gentle as possible, and to deviate as little as possible from the skillset of the official version. Again, if you think I've somehow missed something, email me and let me know.

[opusvi]

originally posted by MrCrusher
Online gamers and games are currently setting most industry trends. Most major releases are internet dependent. To presume otherwise is nonsense.

You're making an elitist argument as well by supporting that a minority of online players should dictate how everyone else should play. Most major game releases are not in fact, internet dependent and to assume that they are is incorrect. Last time I checked, only online MMORPG's games like Evercrack, and SW:Galaxies are "internet dependent". Most people without an internet connection could still install, play, and thoroughly enjoy eight out of every ten games. As an example let's look at the ten most popular games from GameSpy's PriceGrabber:

1) Warcraft III: Blizzard has long history with good MP gameplay. MP lacks ability to match players with similar skill levels. MP optional though it probably ships more boxes.

2)Battlefield 1942:Intensively done and authentic MP design based on interesting historical scenarios with objective based matches possible. MP optional and probably ships more boxes.

3)Unreal Tournament 2K3: Designed almost exclusively for MP gameplay.

4)Metal of Honor: Allied Assault:See #2 above.

5)Grand Theft Auto III: No MP gameplay. Ships prodigious amounts of product anyways.

6)No One Lives Forever 2: Co-op MP available only. Sells well regardless.

7)MOH:AA Spearhead: Same as #2, 4

8)Hitman 2:No MP gameplay. Still one of the most eagerly awaited sequels ever. Sells well regardless.

9)Age of Mythology:Focus on SP gameplay. MP gameplay that has a superior skill rating system. MP will sell a great deal of boxes.

10) Neverwinter Nights: Almost exclusively meant to be played online.

So MP gameplay is by no means essential or dependent to the majority of games. It is at best an added bonus for those gamebuyers who are able to and want to play MP online. Games for the most part, are not being designed with MP gameplay as the sole focus of development. Companies which package some form of MP gameplay do so for financial profit and not because they want to make a better gameplay experience for a small core of die-hard players.

(http://www.gamegate.com/news2.jsp)

Companies who keep a community alive by pandering to their MP gameplay requests do so because:

"Sites Can Derive Auxiliary Value from Offering Online Games
Large general-interest portals have demonstrated that games programming is effective in attracting and retaining the general-interest population. Game channels are among the most popular channels on major portals. Offering games on genre and affinity sites will broaden the base of online game players and offers sites a method of collecting data, retaining audience, and tapping into viral marketing potential.

Sites should therefore devote greater resources to developing their casual games in order to differentiate them from other sites' games programming. This type of improved narrowband game play can also act as a teaser to retain consumers for eventual broadband play. Online games based on TV game shows (e.g., Wheel of Fortune) or other licensed entertainment (e.g., Star Wars or Dawson's Creek) can also widen the appeal of playing online games via narrowband. Traditional media properties offer cross-media programming opportunities for online games as well as a potential retention incentive for online consumers who are also fans of the off-line entertainment entities."

Meaning in short, what I had already stated. LEA makes no money from JK2 MP aside from a modest increase in sales. The real income comes from demographic gathering, targeted advertising, and possibly subscriptions to services like GameSpy's or other gaming portals. It is those parties who truly benefit from MP gameplay and not LEA. You could argue that it's a vicious cycle because JK2 with it's lackluster MP gameplay and relatively small number of online players receives a significantly lower review on Gamespy than CS with its several thousands of players. It's not good business to steer MP players towards a game with subpar
gameplay.


JK2 was released with an emphasis on SP development and gameplay. MP was added later as an afterthought and imho is a dissapointment. With all of the exciting possibilities available in the rich and engrossing SW universe, we got Quake with force powers. There is no draw to exploring new areas, no cooperative gameplay, no objective-based scenarios. MP gameplay is poor because only people who are interested in their skills and ability to have quick reflexes and can master the right sequence to perform a mid-air, roundhouse decapitation really benefit from it.


originally posted by MrCrusher
To play ProMod you do not need fast reflexes so much as intelligent strategy. Reflexes come second to strategy. You assume to much.


Artifex's mod description (which again is a MP mod and does nothing to enhance SP gameplay) specifically states on his website: "The end result is a system that rewards great player skill, and conversely punishes those of lesser abilities." I'm not pretending to know something about the Promod gameplay (which I admittedly haven't tried) because I don't have to assume anything. He states his intentions in a clear and unequivocal fashion by openly proclaiming his mod to be geared towards players with "great ...skill". These are veteran players who already posses superior skills in comparison to the average JK2 MP gamer. Promod gives already experienced JK2 players yet another edge in competitive gameplay. N00bs who don't even know what a blue lunge or how to perform a backstab will find that competition in Promod against established Jedi Masters even more discouraging than the already poor vanilla MP gameplay.

If Promod was marketed differently so that it said that it indeed "nothing more than efficiency and an easier time playing, thus more fun." then you could fault me for assuming too much. As it stands now, if the mod description was changed to say that, it would be misleading copy since this is a mod intended to benefit experienced players more by Artifex's own admission.

originally posted by ArtifeX
This makes outcomes much more predictable, no matter what your skill level is.

Yes it certainly does. Good players will indeed predictably beat poor players. By eliminating "randomness and luck" Promod ensures that a player who is more skilled in vanilla JK2 MP gameplay will never again have to worry about his superior abilities somehow being impinged by a rookie's fortunate and improbable saber swipe. In vanilla JK2 MP a newcomer may have had at least the dim possibility of occasionally besting a Jedi Master through sheer luck and pluck. Under Promod playing, a veteran player is now ensured of regular and consistent victories over lesser oponents.

The only gameplay that will not become overly lopsided is in tournaments between expert players. They doubtlessly will be in a far better position than I to appreciate the additional finesse, speed, and power which I'm assuming Artifex coded into Promod. (See, I can make an assumptions that something being good.) :)

This is good news only for online gamers who are adept at JK2 MP combat. Which is great for them and I wish them lots of luck. Maybe some average players will find that with Promod, they become above average players. That would certainly be a measure of success for Artifex. Heck, if I were a great player I'd probably love the this mod as much as you do. But since it's only a MP mod and I'm a average player this is not something I'm interested in. Artifex has probably put in countless hours of his voluntary hard work and effort into this project. I'd be remiss if I didn't have a great deal of respect for him in that regard. But I can still admire his commitment and dedication to his original intent even if I respectfully disagree with him in that I think the probable effects of his mod will not be overwhelmingly positive for JK2 MP and will not affect SP gameplay.

If his ideas of more complex swordfighting routines become more popular, I would hope that in JK3 or an expansion pack these become optional and not hardcoded into the games since it would discourage sales. Average players when confronted with a much more difficult saber learning curve might simply opt out of buying it.


I really believe that more JK2 owners would consider even the poor existing, non-objective, based MP (either vanilla or Promoed) however, if there was a way of somehow linking combatants up with players of similar skills so that no one person in a server could dominate all the other ones. I really think that might help to draw more average players into MP gameplay. Since I'm not familiar with the process, I don't even know if there a any way to establish one server for n00bs and another one for l33ts so if I'm missing out on something which already exists let me know.

:bounce1:

[zerowingzero]

I'm not understanding the basis of your argument, players of a lower skill should have a good chance to beat one of higher skill? I don't see why this would encourage playing a game knowing that anyone joining a server could be just as good as you even if you have more experence.
As far as i'm concerned, there isnt ANY online game that rewards luck over skill, i don't really see why it should, just because one weighlifter can't lift as much as another, does that entitle him to lift less weight in a compitition?
Any game that doesnt reward skill with a higher ratio of scoring/ wining would be really fustrating to play.

And also, your argument that mp is an optional conponent in games, is pretty much wrong. Most of the games that you listed that had sp only would not work feasably with mp. Think of maxpayne, all battles would last as long as one bullet time press, or WC3, The AI could be ok for awhile but MP is where the game really shines.

And i do suggest playing the mod and not relying on the descripion to judge the mod, it doesnt really do it justice.

[ArtifeX]

opus:

wait for version 3.0 to come out, and give Promod a shot. I think you'll find that your misgivings about it being an elitist-only mod will be put to rest.

Promod is easy to play, but hard to play well. Just as any good game should be.

[Nill the Mean]

Wow, it has been ages since I came here...
This game is dead as disco.

[zerowingzero]

Originally posted by Nill the Mean
Wow, it has been ages since I came here...
This game is dead as disco.

mmmk.....

[MrCrusher]

opusvi,

Maybe I can help clear up your misunderstandings a bit. The concern in this thread is primarily MP. As few folk will Mod for SP this threads real concern is Mod compatibility for MP. Since you do not play online much I can begin to understand your difficulty connecting here.

When Jk2 first released it had several thousand players at any given time in MP. At times it was the third most populated game listed at GameSpy.com. I bought JK2 with MP in mind as did many others. I read many of the reviews and for the most part MP was highly rated. Some reviews suggested that you get two games in one - a great SP game along with great MP game. MP was not an after thought. The jk2/Q3 engine is a MP engine. Once again your assumptions are groundless.

But MP popularity was a flash in the pan. To many problems. A Star Wars game that provides poor control, unpredictable saber combat, and random chance luck is a flawed game in my estimation - and I'll suppose any one with common sense would feel the same way.

I'm an average player and I don't have an esteem problem when beaten by a better player. You should play with whom you choose - noob, average or elite. Play for fun. And when you do lose using ProMod, at least you'll know why. You control how you play the game, the game does not control you with random variables.

There is another inherent flaw with vanilla JK2 - the duel game-type does not allow you to choose your fight, thus it pits noob against elite. I think ProMod intends to change that by allowing multiple challenge-duels per server. Thus you can choose who you fight and when. This will be the single greatest noob friendly feature JK2 has.

Your posts are very persuasive (but far to long). And, once again based on loose assumption and twisting of logic.

Since you state that you are unfamiliar with the process of how JK2-MP works then you ARE in fact missing something - A valid argument. ;)

It would be a shame if LA did release an MP expansion that was five steps back from ProMods excellent combat system. I understand the concerns of this topic, as well you should - had you taken time to play JK2-MP.

:rolleyes:

[opusvi]

Artifex,

All right, I'll bite. I'll give the latest build of Promod a fair try and then make a more informed opinion.


originally posted by zerowingzero:
I'm not understanding the basis of your argument, players of a lower skill should have a good chance to beat one of higher skill? I don't see why this would encourage playing a game knowing that anyone joining a server could be just as good as you even if you have more experence.


I wasn't saying that players of low skill should have a sure-fire way to fend off higher-rated players so that everyone is on an equal playing field. I'm a firm believer in equality of opportunity, not of condition. However, currently that is the way things are. It's been brought up by people who know of such things that as it stands now in vanilla JK2 MP, it can happen on occasion that a lesser player may infrequently best a more skilled player through dumb luck related to the saber routines or cheap use of rorce powers.

I haven't experienced it, but I'm pretty sure that slaying someone with 200+ kills after he's already owned everyone else in that server must be a huge high for a 12 year old Johnnie Gamer. Promod largely removes that possibility, as per Artifex’s intent. Before the teen community flames me I should in fact acknowledge that there are plenty of 12 year olds with the hand-eye coordination of jet fighter pilots and concentration of a kendo master who could give anyone a run for their money in either vanilla or Promod MP.

I think we could agree at least that Promod is the best place for a newcomer to JK2 MP to start. I don't even think it's the right place for someone who does not necessarily crave better competition or who has no serious intention of increasing their skills. The casual gamer may in fact feel intimidated by the above average skill level likely to be found in a Promod server. As Aritifex has pointed out, this all depends on the player though. Maybe when Promod takes off someone can approach him and suggest starting a Promod-based Jedi Learning Academy for people who want to learn how to improve their skills on a gradual basis and not just jump into the fray unprepared.

:max:

[MrCrusher]

Before the teen community flames me I should in fact acknowledge that there are plenty of 12 year olds with the hand-eye coordination of jet fighter pilots and concentration of a kendo master who could give anyone a run for their money in either vanilla or Promod MP
Its very satisfying to tactically out smart these youngsters. Kinda like real life ....the thoughtful fighter usually wins. You can tell their young when start griping then log off.

I'll admit that it has been my experience that Melee style games have a greater learning curve than FPShooters. This does indeed add greater separation between the noob and the experienced. There are ways to separate the high score players from the not so high score players in the Duel-1on1 game type... but the code hasn't been written yet. :(

Best one can hope for is to find a server with good ping and players of equal skill. Sometimes find myself playing down to help new players get the hang of things.
Promod-based Jedi Learning Academy for people who want to learn how to improve their skills on a gradual basis and not just jump into the fray unprepared.
Funny you should mention this. I posted a suggestion when JK2 first went into development years ago. Something about ranking players per server. The better your kill/loss ratio the higher your rank. A simple prefix on the name tag e.i. Jedi Adept JonDoe for lightside and Sith lord BoBo for darkside etc. I think I even suggested something like... teaming with a padawan at anytime during a match to combine your scores and increase your padawan's defense rating. An advantage to both Master and padawan. The way ObiWan and Anakin team up. Could be used in all game types as well. A learner could wear his Masters skin... If the padawan's kill ratio improves greatly then he releases from the Master/Leaner team but leaves behind a few kills on his masters score count. Maybe a 2 to 3 level disparity to allow an alliance. Could use a simple join "j" key similar to the challenge "k" key.

Adding support for a player skill disparity is far more sensible than dumbing down the game in general.

[opusvi]

originally posted by zerowingzero:
And also, your argument that mp is an optional conponent in games, is pretty much wrong. Most of the games that you listed that had sp only would not work feasably with mp. Think of maxpayne, all battles would last as long as one bullet time press, or WC3, The AI could be ok for awhile but MP is where the game really shines.

I haven’t played WC3, but I played StarCraft since the beginning. I never played online because it took too long, unless you got paired up with a rusher which had predictable consequences. Give me the AI over a zergling horde bitch any day. Also, I disagree with the idea that the SP games are not adaptable to MP. I think GTA3 would make a fantastic MP game as would Hitman 2 if done properly. I haven’t played Max Payne yet, but why couldn’t bullet time work the same way slow-mo animations in JK2 are done.?


But let’s look at some of the best-selling PC games in the past couple of weeks:

http://pc.ign.com/articles/377/377288p1.html


The Sims and all their permutations thereof far and away outsell everything else. It has no MP gameplay and likely won’t since anytime soon Sim Village got canned. It’s been selling strong for a couple of years now. UT 2k3 is the only game in that list geared exclusively towards MP gameplay.

MP is in fact for most games optional just as Must See TV on NBC is, in fact very much optional. You don’t have to play it unless you have a game like Neverwinter Nights which is designed, built, and marketed to be played online. Many, heck I would even say a slim majority of all gamers people actually try online MP gameplay. But most do not become regular online gamers.

That the SP games I mentioned might not work well as MP games is beside the point. The list was meant to highlight that MP gameplay along alone gameplay is not behind the steering wheel of the gaming market. Some of the best selling games of 2002 like The Sims, GTA 3, Roller Coaster Tycoon (wtf?), Hitman 2, do not have MP gameplay at all. Certainly, many of the top-selling games of the year will have MP components, but not at the sheer core of gameplay save for UT2k3, Neverwinter Nights, etc…

The majority of gamebuyers do not buy a game and then immediately rush home to play it with (or against) hundreds or thousands of their closest friends. Clearly, many will probably do so. But it’s not everyone for various reasons. MP helps market a product and keep its owners interested “just long enough” in the game to buy an expansion pack or a sequel. But in over 80% of cases MP gameplay is not an integral or essential component of a video game.It is a mistake to presume that the icing IS the cake.

:max:

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by zerowingzero:
While a mod will probably won't attract as many new players as an expansion would, it would probably keep the ones that are still there. Now the question is, do you want to attract a whole lot of new players that will be turned off by game inballances and lack of inovation over other games, or keeping the existing community frm dieing off?

Good question ZWZ, and easily answered... The reason I'm still playing the game is because it has its own flavour, (which appeals to me) as all games do. If an expansion attracts a decent number of players, there will be a portion who feel as I do and will continue to play and contribute to the community in whatever way they wish. It's really that simple. As for the existing community dying off, well it's already dying off at the moment. But it takes a long time for a game to die fully. Look at JK...

But of course this point is moot. The ideal situation would be an expansion that doesn't negatively affect modders, making all sides happy and doing nothing but good. But how can we know whether that will come to pass or not? It's worth a shot either way.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by opusvi
Artifex,

All right, I'll bite. I'll give the latest build of Promod a fair try and then make a more informed opinion.

Once 3.0 is ready for release, I'll be posting here in the Valley to that effect. Feel free to drop by my official server once that is done.

...
Maybe when Promod takes off someone can approach him and suggest starting a Promod-based Jedi Learning Academy for people who want to learn how to improve their skills on a gradual basis and not just jump into the fray unprepared.

:max:

Not a bad idea. I know some people involved with the jedi academy hosted by jkii.net. I'll drop them an email to see if they'd like to see this happen.

[opusvi]

originally posted by MrCrusher:
The jk2/Q3 engine is a MP engine. Once again your assumptions are groundless.

Yes, you're correct in that technically the JK2 game engine is from Q3 Arena. That engine was itself modified by id to better fit MP gameplay specifically dealing with things like latency in Q3 MP. But JK2 was not designed with MP at the core of gameplay but as an additional selling point. Notice first off, the lack of a JK2 MP demo as opposed to AVP2 or MOH:AA which did have them. Look at the comparitive time and effort which resulted in a high quality SP gameplay and the piss-poor performance of JK2 MP gameplay. Time spent on JK2 SP gameplay and time spent on MP gameplay designwise was probably 4:1. So they just imported everything over and made a “mod” of Q3 multiplayer.

Secondly, there are only exactly two things that’s actually different between Q3A and JK2 MP gameplay, sabers and force powers. That was part and parcel of the SP experience because Kyle as a quasi-Jedi must have A) a saber, and B) force powers. Even though it was built using an MP engine, JK2 wasn’t designed with MP gameplay expressly in mind and that’s why MP gameplay is as much of a letdown in the first place. They didn't even see the force powers imbalance when they cut and pasted the same dull Q3 MP routines into JK2. When they finally decided to do something about it, the patches just upset and fragmented the online gaming community. Would everyone complain so much about JK2 MP if it had been originally designed as a real MP-based game instead of just a marketing plus? In comparison, CS servers are still popular (at 62 thousand alone tonight) because that was indeed, a game optimally designed for MP gameplay, and not just slapped together in the last few weeks before it went gold.

Further, the only “new” component of JK2 MP is to have CTF with a force-negating Salamander on top so that the carrier has a handicap. That’s really not a whole lot of originality to sell a game mostly on the strengths of MP gameplay. JK2 MP was added by Raven without the thought and consideration it they really should have given it. The reason JK2 MP became so popular is solely the enthusiasm of JK2 MP players and the vitality of the community who succeeded despite anything Raven did wrong and not because of anything they did right. To wit, the patches debacle. JK2 may have been spun off by marketers and overly enthused reviewers as a great MP experience but game clearly wasn't designed that way. MP gameplay was incidental, not integral. You point out to that it may have been advertised as a great MP experience with two games in one. Yet at the same time you admit and express your disappointment with the JK2 MP. If the JK2 MP experience had really been that great and impressive then the community wouldn't be dying off today and counting on mods to save them.


originally posted by MrCrusher:
Since you state that you are unfamiliar with the possess of how JK2-MP works then you ARE in fact missing something - A valid argument.


Very true. But there’s nothing in current JK2 MP gameplay that I find appealing since there no objective-based, SW canon-themed, CS-like mods and gameplay is essentially recycled Q3. As far as the SP/MP argument is concerned, I really don’t think that that simply because I like to come home at the end of the day and defend/storm the Normandy beachhead bunkers for hours on end in MOH, everyone else wants to do the same or at least SHOULD want do so as well. First of all, you really need a decent (i.e. non-aol connection for any decent kind of online MP gameplay because of basic latency issues.On MOH this is not AS crucial as it is in JK2 because all characters move slower than and the weapons fire is not quite as frantic.

When playing SP, latency (the amount of time between pressing a key and the corresponding action onscreen) is limited only to processor speed, memory available, and game engine dynamics. Essentially, it's negligible even for Jedi Masters in SP. When playing online your connection speed (both up and down) becoms part of that equation. On a 56k that delay can be as much as ten times higher than the average SP latency . It might not seem like much, but over the long run a few tenths of a second delay can be frustrating. A quarter to half second delay however, can easily turn even the finest gameplay into mush. Raven did not change the engine for JK2 to significantly improve latency issues when it modded the Q3A MP gameplay. JK2 MP was thus built using two year old latency features. This is a game with a force speed power and frenetic swordfighting that sometimes suffers because of lagtime.

Thus a ISDN line or better is the minimum standard for any serious online gamers. But how many DSL/CableModem/T1 subscribers are there in America? Ten million last year. That’s a litle over 20% of over 50 million total people online. Even we were to assume that gamers are more computer savvy than the average population, and thus more likely to have a fast internet connection, it’s important to note that a significant chunk of those 10 million fat data pipes are business and college connections.

Further, if there are around 25 million “regular” online gamers in the US. It’s obvious the majority of gamers are not on broadband. Let’s say that online gamers are more likely to be broadband users (or viceversa), then even if we assumed that all 10 million broadband users were online gameplayers they would be a minority. Still let’s be generous and assume that 25% of all 25 million online gamers are broadband users or 2.5 times the national average. That’s still a lot fewer LPB’s than HPB's.

Further, LPB’s are more likely to become experienced players because since they have a reliable, fast internet connection, they are more likely than someone with a unreliable, slower connetcion to spend more time playing and practicing a particular game. They also have an added edge in that their lagtime is significantly less than HPB narrowband counterparts and use their speed to their clear advantage. There are a lot of l33t players in any game today who are actually great and some who are just somewhat above average and merely exploit their speed superiority, especially by tweaking the game just like there are a lot of players who would be excellent in an even playing field but whose performance suffers from lagtime. Interestingly enough, the community at large pounces on the latter group while not even acknowledging the former.

Competitive online action gaming in (as opposed to say online chess) is thus at least as much about speed as it is about skill. Hardcore gamers very much benefit from their high speed connections and a vicious cycle may develop. Yet this minority of broadband using online gamers are the ones who consistently dominate the online community here and elsewhere. Online games like Quake, UT, or CS revolve around intense competition and when having a broadband connection often makes the difference between being last man standing and a smoking body on the ground. Since most online gamers are not broadband users, many an upsetting defeat because of lag and superior practice time and skills of broadband opponents is enough to dissuade an occasional online gamer from becoming a regular online gamer. Who is really making the money here? Maybe it's broadband providers cajoling the games industry for more MP gameplay in hopes that they can sell more pipes to gamers.


originally posted by MrCrusher:
Adding support for a player skill disparity is far more sensible than dumbing down the game in general.


On the whole, I agree with you just as long as any changes made do not scare n00bs away in droves and there are lower sales of the expansion pack or sequel as a result. For example if the expansion pack were released next month with all of Artifex's changes to saber and weapons combat and sales flagged badly that would be bad for everyone concerned. It would be poor for the online MP community since the numbers of players would drop and it would be bad for the SP enthusiasts since there would likely be diminished incentive for LEA to produce a sequel.

An EGM article once mockingly pointed out that hardcore online gamers (and SW fanboys alike) share a lot of traits with religious fundamentalists. They are a small group of near fanatical enthusiasts utterly convinced of their own sense of rightness who get a level of attention that is wildly disproportionate to their actual numbers. Many pundits and "industry experts" consider these early adopters to be “the riding crest of online gaming, shapers of our destiny, and harbingers of things to come, blah blah blah…”, I disagree.

Even IF it were true, why should they be running the show? Again, going back to an argument that Spider mentioned earlier in this post, having a small minority elite of players decide the future of online gaming for everyone is folly. Tailoring a game to please a 10-20% base of hardcore gamers is not good business, unless you charge them extra. It’s imho, inappropriate to let a self-appointed cabal to decide what fun is and worse yet, what fun should be for the rest of the players. Many people in this post have voiced that wildly catering to the masses and dumbing down the game is wrong and stupid while favoring a course of changes proposed by the a small elite. We should realize that both of those things are wrong, although strictly speaking dumbing down the game for the masses is at least democratic.

I respect Artifex, and am now intrigued enough to try Promod, and even willing to pay for it if I do like it. Still I would rather not see all of his ideas incorporated en masse into JK3 unless a majority (or at least a clear plurality) of players truly wanted it that way. Even then I would rather JK3 have a complex/simple saber routine available as a check box in the set-up screen as an optional game setting instead of just hardcoded in. First of all, it would complicate the SP experience for non-veteran players and discourage sales. Also, in MP it might put someone who’s more skilled with the complex (a la Promod) style of swordfighting at an advantage over someone opting for simple saber routines with it’s integral randomness. Of course, they can always learn to play Promod style or maybe servers can be divided into simple and complex saber fighting so everyone would find a fit for their style of playing. But people should have the choice. N00bs and casual JK3 players can get a fluffy game with pretty SW mythos and serious competitive players can have the more intense and dextrous swordfighting they want.

:max:

[Lathain Valtiel]

Very true. But there’s nothing in current JK2 MP gameplay that I find appealing since there no objective-based, SW canon-themed, CS-like mods and gameplay is essentially recycled Q3.

I have ONE word for you. Saga. Assuming ArtifeX HOPEFULLY stuffs Saga support into ProMod 4, and Saga maps REALLY get off the ground, you'd be sorta happy to see objective based MP added in.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

my hope was that Raven would fully implement saga if they made an expansion which is why I haven't been keen to jump on the bandwagon just yet.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by MMXP


I have ONE word for you. Saga. Assuming ArtifeX HOPEFULLY stuffs Saga support into ProMod 4, and Saga maps REALLY get off the ground, you'd be sorta happy to see objective based MP added in.

Yes, after I finish 3.0 and any bug fixing patches (3.1, etc.), then I will work on adding Saga support for 4.0. I will also either solicit new Saga maps from some of the best mappers out there (who will no doubt come from my picks for the Promod Media Pack), or I'll do them myself if no one steps up to the plate.

My final vision of Promod will be a much more tactical, objective-based game that will necessitate teamwork and communication over run-and-gun lone wolf heroics.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
my hope was that Raven would fully implement saga if they made an expansion which is why I haven't been keen to jump on the bandwagon just yet.

Yes, this was my assumption as well. Which is why it annoys me to no end that LA/whoever is being so damned secretive and not giving modders/mapmakers any warning.

I say "whoever" now because I have sufficient reasons to convince me that Raven will not be involved in an expansion if there is one. I could open up a bunch of conjecture on what this could mean, but it's all moot until we get some word from LA/whoever.

[zerowingzero]

No you fools don't put ideas in his head! Ahh who am i kidding, he has already started v4 in his head.

RIP ArtifeX actually playing promod :(

[XylanKasshu00]

Well, you know. We should get some of these Mods and TC's done, that'd definitly keep players around. I love JKII as much as the next guy here. But with a wide range of games and in favor of keeping game intrests alive I say just play a few games, come back to JKII and continue that pattern. This has been posted so many times here I can't count. The topics are always about a new patch or JKII dying. We don't need a new patch, we need people to stop saying the game is dead!

[opusvi]

Since aside from MP gameplay there haven't been a lot of points about improving JK2 in an expansion pack, does anyone have anything else they would like changed?

I'd like to see the jumping puzzles toned down, or at least get more creative. I don't even think Mario Sunshine is quite so leap intensive.

Also, what's up with all the building-sized, near bottomless rooms and shafts in Imperial levels? What about stormtroopers with vertigo? Do they just get sent to Tattoine as punishment? Tattoine itself would be nice as a level, though I'd pass on the pod racing.

I'd like to see if maybe the sequel or expansion pack can have a level which has to be completed from two or more separate angles like DS9:The Fallen. It would be interesting to play the first part of the level can be completed from Jan's perspective and the second from Kyle's.

More humanoid droids to fight like AOTC. Maybe a light saber wielding robot-jedi that can keep fighting even after losing limbs.

The weapons are ok, but I'd get rid of a couple and get new ones. I'm not all that fond of the wookie blaster really but can't think of anything in specific to replace it with.

A difference in skill levels with the imperials. Soldiers with epaulets should have better AI not just better weapons.

I dunno. Those are just some of the top of my head. I'm sure there are better ideas.



:max: