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C'jais
11-09-2002, 12:53 PM
What's your take on this?

Is it a result of religious indoctrination?
A cruel and brutal way of taking someone's life?
A question of tradition?
Only appliable to rape victims?
Is it a worse toll on the woman to give birth to an unwanted child, than to have it aborted?
What have the man got to say in this matter?
Is it fair to let the child be born to a poor, homeless mother with no income?
Does pre-marital sex play an important role?

And finally:

Who do you think is generally more pro abortion? Women or Men?

DiRtY $oUtH™
11-09-2002, 01:03 PM
Women are usually more pro abortion. I think its wrong no matter what the circumstances. I would never make my wife have an abortion.(When I get married) And yes i do think premarital sex has a lot to do with it. They have sex before marriage and then when the girl gets pregnant, Oh lets find the easy way out and have an abortion....it's not much, just ending a human life.

Skate Boy
11-09-2002, 01:05 PM
A baby is still a living breathing human. I think it's wrong to kill it because you don't want to deal with it. You can't just go out in the street and murder some one because you don't want to deal with them. Abortion is murder no matter what. I think it's wrong. But that's just my opinion.

Bob Gnarly
11-09-2002, 01:10 PM
no its against my beleifs to kill someone....even if its before there born.....

NerfYoda
11-09-2002, 01:16 PM
I completely support a womans right to choose. IMO (and according to Jewish law) the fetus isnt considered a human until the head and shoulders exit the birth canal.

I'm also a member of the population control camp. People need to have less kids, and if abortion helps so be it.

DiRtY $oUtH™
11-09-2002, 01:17 PM
i agree...killing is killing, and then they try to say that its technically not a human. Gimme a break.

Tyrion
11-09-2002, 01:18 PM
Well technically they'd kill it before it had any nerves...

But it's only appliable if the birth could kill the baby(what's worse,a painful death or unfelt death?)or if the birth could kill the mother and the baby.

And yes, the dad should have a say in it.

Wacky_Baccy
11-09-2002, 01:21 PM
Interesting topic... I hope we can all keep it flame-free :)


I myself am pro-choice; I believe that women should be able to decide what they do with their own bodies, whether that be to keep a baby or have an abortion... It's up to them.

That does not necessarily mean that I will always agree with their reasons for doing so, whichever path they choose, but in all honesty, is it really any of my business if that choice does not affect me in any way? I personally don't think so, which is why I hold the opinion that I do.

There is no definite point at which a baby changes from being a simple cluster of cells to being a conscious human being - that change is part of an ongoing process, and never stops throughout our lives, so I don't think that you can truly put a reliable cut-off point on when abortion should and should not be medically allowed... I do think that it should always be done before the baby's nerve system is developed enough for it to feel any pain, though, but I admit I'm not sure whether we know when this stage of developement occurs or not.

I also think that women are usually more pro-choice, for what I see as obvious reasons.

I'll probably have a fair bit more to say on this, but I'm a little tired right now, and don't feel up to debating at full steam :D

Jedi_Monk
11-09-2002, 01:22 PM
This is about the toughest issue in America today... a lot of people say it should be illegal and should never happen, but then those same people say women should be able to do it in cases of rape and incest. But then, how would the courts decide if a woman was raped or if she was consenting but just didn't expect to get pregnant so she decided to say she was raped to get an abortion?

I'm a Catholic, which means I uphold the Pope's doctrine of life. I do believe that life begins at conception and I would never, ever encourage a woman to get an abortion. And I stress again never. I'm not pro-abortion or even pro-choice because I believe that one choice is wrong, wrong, wrong. I'm anti-criminalization.

I believe that if abortions were made illegal they would still happen, and that, in the climate of our criminal justice system in America, poor and minority women would get prosecuted for having an abortion more often than white women of "higher classes." Also, if abortions were made illegal, it would actually become harder to talk some women out of it.

My cousin was considering an abortion ten years ago, and she brought it up with her aunts (including my mom) and grandma and they basically talked her out of it. Now would she have dared to come to talk to us about that if abortions were illegal? What if she had decided to go through with it and we all knew that she was pregnant, and all knew what it meant that she no longer was? No, she wouldn't've come talked to the people who talked her out of it. She would have been afraid that one of them would have turned her in on the chance that their arguments weren't convincing and that she would have gone to get an abortion anyway. Nobody to talk her out of it and one of my favorite cousins wouldn't be alive today.

This also goes for priests. I'm sure many Catholic women contemplating abortions go to their priests, and many priests probably save their babies from an abortion doctor's machines. Project Rachel helps women who have had an abortion to cope with the physical and emotional aftermath in a religious and forgiving environment. Project Rachel would be gone if abortions were made illegal, because there is no statute of limitation on murder.

And yes, it would have to be murder if abortions were made illegal. A lot of Republicans say they would only prosecute the doctors. Can't do that. At its heart, it would be a contract killing. You cannot say you would ignore the crime of the woman if abortions were illegal.

I think that this is an issue that needs to be dealt with morally and not politically. This is an issue that is older than time, and no laws imposed in this or any nation will fix the problem. I've read that 80% of women have tried to abort their own pregnancies before going to a doctor. We need to change the way people look at the unborn child, need to make them respect its life. Only by a change of outlook can any progress on this issue be accomplished. We also need to support programs that help single and poor mothers, as well as adoption agencies.

http://members.aol.com/dannilalfletch/Jedi_Monk.jpg

_NinjaGaiden_
11-09-2002, 01:39 PM
abortion is wrong no matter how you look at it end of story

C'jais
11-09-2002, 02:04 PM
If abortion is murder, you have to define what "taking a human life" is - and to do that, you need to define what "human" is.

I prefer the biological explanation:

Let's say I take a blood sample of you - each cell has the DNA provided to make a new human being. Now, if I were to destroy those blood cells, I'd be destroying the ability to make new life - I'd be destroying cells. The same can be said about egg cells - if I were to destroy them, I'd be halting the advancement of human life. But are your cells what makes you human?

At the moment of conception, the embryo is no more advanced than a cell from your finger nail - and it holds the same genetic information as one, except it has been mixed with another person. The embryo is unable to think or experience sensations - it isn't human in my book.

It's ok to waste millions of sperm cells (millions of men do it every day), and likewise it is alright to waste egg cells (millions of women do it every day). If put side by side, it is still alright to destroy these cells. The moment that these cells interact however, nothing magical or holy happens - the cells exchange genes, and they change to a single cell, but nothing else happens. Via mitosis, this cell duplicates itself - but it's still just cells we're talking about, just as if we were talking about 50 sperm and egg cells for example. If you want to assume that something extraordinarily holy or divine happens at that instant, then go right ahead, but we're still talking about something as natural as taking a leak or bending a knee. If I kill 37 cells I'm a murderer, if I cut off a microscopic amount of tissue I'm a doctor.

I'll say that when a child is born, it's able to sense and experience the outside world, think, and support itself without a womb.

Whatever your opinion is, we're far too many people already on this planet. Reproductive cloning or having far too much sex without protection and no abortion isn't going to lessen this problem.

You may think I'm a cold hearted killer, but know this: I'd rather have women complete the pregnancy and adopt their child to someone who can't have one - unfortunately, women develop quite a bond with the child during the pregnancy, and it's often hard to let go, even though it's more practical.

Matt-Liell
11-09-2002, 02:59 PM
No way! its cruel and every human has the right to live provided they didnt do something terrible!

-s/<itzo-
11-09-2002, 03:22 PM
nay in my heart but yay in some extent. i mean it's not my baby let the mother do what she wants with her baby. you gotta put your feet in their shoes. especially those who gets pregnant in an early age. i can undertand what they are going through. they are not mature enough to handle that kinda responsibility.


plus who i'm i to judge, i don't want to be one of those people who go as far as killing the doctors, setting bombs and what knot.

JediNyt
11-09-2002, 03:52 PM
Even though I try stay out of the controvercy I believe in pro choice. Almost all the problems in this world can be traced to overpopulation. War, hunger, poverty, you name it. Overpopulation plays a big part. To avoid the abortion thing all together people just need to not get pregnant. Whether it be abstenance (sp?), or any form of safe sex that works. But if unwanted pregnancy does happen, the parents, mostly the mother, should be able to choose what to do. Pregnancy is hard on a woman. A huge burden. And abortion is also merciful to the baby that would grow up in poverty, abuse, hunger, or any other kind of misery. Death is better than misery. For both sides. For people who really want kids, they should only have one. World population must be reduced. And its not like abortion is painful to the fetus. Hey if I was aborted, oh well. I wouldnt know Im missing anything. And thered be plenty of other people out there whod turn out better than me.

Kstar__2
11-09-2002, 04:00 PM
i don't think it is my right to judge those who do it, but if you have a baby, you cannot go saying halfway there "ow i don't want it anymore" (this is different with rape, than i fully understand it)

Rogue Nine
11-09-2002, 04:05 PM
I've written a number of papers on this topic...couldn't find all of them, but here's a little snippet from one of them.

My personal beliefs on the topic of abortion have gotten me some strong opposition. I’m pro-life all the way, except for extreme circumstances. I do not oppose abortion out of any religious standpoints since I myself am far from pious. (But I'm working on it). Rather, my pro-life motivation stems from my upbringing and my own conclusions from my wide and varied studies on the subject. Many of my friends are pro-choice and that is understandable, since I live in New York, which is the heart of liberalness. But I find the arguments for abortion specious and wholly heartless. First off, the statement that abortion is a good thing because it is a way of controlling world population demonstrates how much value for human life has depreciated. We see abortion as a means of making sure we don’t overpopulate. Preposterous. That's like equating ourselves to animals. We kill them off in a flash, just to control population. Then there are the arguments that state that the developing embryo is not human, just mere tissue that is growing. This I find especially loathsome in its reasoning. The embryo is in the process of becoming a human being. It will not grow to become a cow, a pig or any other animal. It will grow into a living, breathing human baby. Terminating it before it has the chance to develop into one is a horrendous thing to do. And then there is the issue of increased promiscuity. Women who are sexually promiscuous and don’t care how many times they get pregnant see abortion as a way out of the problem of raising a child. This just demonstrates how far we have come along as a society. When women can have sex and not deal with the consequences of their actions. In my opinion, if you have sex, you must be able to deal with the consequences of it. Only in rare, very isolated cases must abortion be allowed. If the mother’s life is in severe danger, an abortion should be an option, but the decision should be up to the mother. In cases of rape and incest, abortion is an option as well, but even so, it is not the child’s fault that the mother was raped, so why should it have to pay for the consequences of something it had no part in? Then you have that whole disgusting practice of taking live fetuses, fresh from being aborted, and literally ripping them apart for research. As I read this as I was researching, I was appalled. Ever since I heard that babies were being killed right in their mother’s womb I’ve been ardently against abortion, but after reading about what happens after the abortion has been done, I’m so much more against it now. Pro-choice advocates and supporters of research may condone it, saying there is some marginal benefit. I for one, will not. I cannot and will not support the butchering and killing of innocent human lives who are not even given a chance to live and breathe on their own, thanks to the politics and skewed ethics and morals of our nation.


Abortion is an issue that will continue to be a topic of much heated debate for many years to come. It is not something that will just disappear. It tests the grounds of so many people’s beliefs and morals that there will probably always be conflicting opinions on it. We can only hope that our society will be able to drag itself out of its moral and ethical quagmire.

Darklighter
11-09-2002, 04:38 PM
I am for Abortion. It is not simple to conclude if you do or don't agree with it, but in the end I do agree that it should be carried out in certain circumstances. In this day and age, we all know that the number of pregnancies, especially among teenagers, is constantly on the increase. Things are only getting worse, where I live anyway, and it is resulting in teenage single parents unable to support there children, of whom they did not necessarily want. Is it fair to say that these people should be put through this, and then sentanced when something happens to the child after it is born? I believe that people should have the choice to keep their baby or not. Nowadays, without Abortion, things will only get worse.

Bob Gnarly
11-09-2002, 04:41 PM
Darklighter

tsk,tsk,tsk

if you dont want the baby then you shouldnt...well...do it...There is a reaction for everything you do and if you dont want the baby atleast you could but it up or something EVERYONE deserves a chance!

Elijah
11-09-2002, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Tyrion
(what's worse,a painful death or unfelt death?) When it comes down to it, its STILL DEATH.


Abortion is wrong, I dont even think i'll try to post in this thread because i know many people will post saying stuff like
"If its not alive how can you kill it?" The Second the Sprum his the Egg it becomes a living Organ, there for it lives.


Period.

Bob Gnarly
11-09-2002, 04:45 PM
GOOD SAY ZDawg I AGREE WITH YOU 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000%

if you think the washington DC sniper is wrong for killing people WELL SO IS Abortion in a way!

Tyrion
11-09-2002, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by ZDawg
When it comes down to it, its STILL DEATH.


Yes, but y'know, there are different ways to die..I am sure the baby would love to have a nice,quick,painless one...

Kjølen
11-09-2002, 04:47 PM
Nay! Definatly, the moment the egg is fertalized, a sould is born, thats what i was taught. Think how sad it would be to kill a soul 2 months into its life.
:-(

Bob Gnarly
11-09-2002, 04:47 PM
I am sure the baby would love to have a nice,quick,painless one...

(IM ALSO SURE THE BABY WOULD LIKE TO LIVE ITS LIFE IT COULD LIVE AND ONE DAY....CURE CANCER FOR ALL WE KNOW!

Rogue Nine
11-09-2002, 04:47 PM
I'm pretty sure the baby would like a shot at life even better.

Elijah
11-09-2002, 04:49 PM
Agreed, Death is not an Option.

Tyrion
11-09-2002, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Rogue Nine
I'm pretty sure the baby would like a shot at life even better.

I guess....

Bob Gnarly
11-09-2002, 04:56 PM
yeah everyone deserves one chance




(ATLEAST!)

Darth Simpson
11-09-2002, 05:02 PM
Women should be allowed to choose. That's my opinion, and it's final.

Jed
11-09-2002, 05:24 PM
I understand what people are saying on both sides, so I remain standless.

Yes, it's completely wrong to kill any type of life at all, and the baby should at least have a chance.

BUT, the woman should have a choice in the matter.

BUT, the woman should think about that before going and having sex.

BUT, the woman could have gotten raped.

So, there's too many views on things.

I'll just stay out of it.

TheWhiteRaider
11-09-2002, 05:28 PM
If abortion is murder, you have to define what "taking a human life" is - and to do that, you need to define what "human" is.

Life
Any object that breathes, is made up of one or more cells, and requires food to maintian it's well being.

Every thing of a baby is living. The sperm and egg that made the baby were living cells and if people don't want babys they shouldn't have the fun. And also abortions cause cancer! You double you chances for cancer every time you have a abortion.

If your chances were 5% it would then be 10%. Next time it would be. 20% and keeps on going so after 4-6 abortions you will have cancer no matter what.

So it is just bad all together it is moraly wrong, it is the end of a life, and it endangers the mother.

Here is all something.... IF YOU DON'T WANT THE BABY PUT IT UP FOR ADOPTION!!!!!!! That way you don't have the baby on your hands someone that can't have a child can have one and it is safe.

C'jais
11-09-2002, 05:37 PM
Within my generation's lifespan, all of my cells will be capable of becoming a new, human individual - given time.

Rogue Nine, if we overpopulate, a large percentage of humans will die due to famine, mainly those living in third world countries.

Kjølen, what is a soul? DNA? An egg cell in meiosis with a sperm cell.... how gross.

KingPin: Maybe pre-marital sex is bad, but that's how the world is these days. It might have been convenient centuries ago, but not now.

Elijah
11-09-2002, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Darth Simpson
Women should be allowed to choose.
Lets say i dont like my naboor next door... If i had my *right to choose* than i can go kill him because he is annoying? he calls the cops every time my dogs bark... should i go snap his neck and say "OMG he bothered me... i didnt like him/didnt want him around me" so it was my choice/opinion to take his life... I mean.. i have a choice dont i?

Everyone is given a choice, You must choose the right one... and murder is not a right answer. BY ANY VIEW OR CURCIMSTANCE


I Can see how people my say its only ok if the girl was raped, However... even if she was raped, does that give her the right to kill that baby? was it the babys fault that some sick pervert to advantage of his mother? NO.

C'jais
11-09-2002, 05:51 PM
Ok ZDawg:

I know it's utterly, completely, unacceptable, morally wrong TO TAKE LIFE.

Well, how do you ethically justify bashing a mosquito or ****roach? Or, maybe you don't?

Did you know that millions parasites and midget live on your body? Every time you brush your teeth, you kill hundreds of them? So, your life, weighted against theirs? Is that fair?

Elijah
11-09-2002, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by cjais
Well, how do you ethically justify bashing a mosquito or ****roach? Or, maybe you don't?

Did you know that millions parasites and midget live on your body? Every time you brush your teeth, you kill hundreds of them? So, your life, weighted against theirs? Is that fair?
God gave man the right to rule the animals and creatures of the earth.
No, i do not get convicted when i smash a spider walking across my keyboard :rolleyes:

I'm not gonna go pushing relgion onto you guys.

NerfYoda
11-09-2002, 05:57 PM
Sorry Rogue Nine I have to disagree with you.. :)

Since the times of the Industrial revolution larger families have bercome a drain, not an addition to a families resources. Nowadays children arent bred to help out on a farm (aka be directly productive). Theyre bred to be productive later in life (aka a drain on resources until they make their own way, and contribution to the family after that may or may not happen).

I tend to think of humans as animals. The only thing separating us from animals is our autonomy. If an animal population acts on instinct and breds until that population consumes all resources available then that animal population will die out. We as humans have a choice against instinct, which in this case will save us.

I think safe sex practices and family limiting should be supported and abortion encouraged in the case of an unwanted pregnancy. It can do us nothing but benifit.

As for the whole "disgusting fetus" thing. I can't imagine a situation where removing a fetus from a mother would appear rosy and pleasant, its an abortion, its not a cheery subject. :) If it's determined that this particular fetus should never become a baby then you might as well put it to good use.

C'jais
11-09-2002, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by ZDawg
I'm not gonna go pushing religion onto you guys.

But you are when you outlaw abortion.

People need to have the choice in this matter, just as they need to have the choice in religion.

Elijah
11-09-2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by cjais
But you are when you outlaw abortion.

People need to have the choice in this matter, just as they need to have the choice in religion.
By the LAWS of My country *USA* IT IS WRONG TO KILL SOMEONE/TAKE A LIFE. There is not *maby* in the matter. IT IS WRONG.

JediNyt
11-09-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by NerfYoda
As for the whole "disgusting fetus" thing. I can't imagine a situation where removing a fetus from a mother would appear rosy and pleasant, its an abortion, its not a cheery subject. :) If it's determined that this particular fetus should never become a baby then you might as well put it to good use.

Stemcell research.:) Learn to fix things like paralisys. Nothing but good can come from that.

TheWhiteRaider
11-09-2002, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by cjais


But you are when you outlaw abortion.

People need to have the choice in this matter, just as they need to have the choice in religion.


Hey there are athieist that think abortion is wrong too. It is not only religion.

Bob Gnarly
11-09-2002, 06:13 PM
It is not only religion.

to some people it is

Kjølen
11-09-2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by cjais
Kjølen, what is a soul? DNA? An egg cell in meiosis with a sperm cell.... how gross.


no, you are thinking scientifically, thats why abortion is still alive today. Think Religiously.

TheWhiteRaider
11-09-2002, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Kjølen


no, you are thinking scientifically, thats why abortion is still alive today. Think Religiously.

Though I agree with you. You shot yourself in the foot there Kjølen. That isn't the best argument for this subject. He doesn't have a religion so he can't.

Kjølen
11-09-2002, 07:22 PM
Argh i see....

Darth Simpson
11-09-2002, 07:25 PM
If i had my *right to choose* than i can go kill him because he is annoying?

Totally different cases. I guess it depends on how you look at it. Personally, I don't consider it murder at the earliest stages. It's not a human being yet. It can't feel, it can't think. It can become a human being, yes, but it isn't one yet.
Later, at the more advanced stages, I'm not so happy about it though. If a woman chooses abortion, she should do so at the earliest opportunity.

Some of you mentioned that premarital sex has a lot to do with abortion. I agree. But how can you justify bringing a human child into this world by say, a 16-year old mother, who has no means of supporting her child?

I'm finding it hard to choose my words correctly, simply because I know that most of you won't agree with me on this, and I don't want to provoke any of you.

DiRtY $oUtH™
11-09-2002, 07:25 PM
well, think about this...where would the world be right now without religion?

Darth Simpson
11-09-2002, 07:28 PM
Your point?

Elijah
11-09-2002, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Darth Simpson


Totally different cases. I guess it depends on how you look at it. Personally, I don't consider it murder at the earliest stages. It's not a human being yet. It can't feel, it can't think. It can become a human being, yes, but it isn't one yet.
Later, at the more advanced stages, I'm not so happy about it though. If a woman chooses abortion, she should do so at the earliest opportunity.


If I Pull a tree out of the ground wile its still in the seed form and has barley started to sprout does that not me i didnt kill it?


Some of you mentioned that premarital sex has a lot to do with abortion. I agree. But how can you justify bringing a human child into this world by say, a 16-year old mother, who has no means of supporting her child?

The 16-year old mother has the choice to have premarital sex... every action has a reaction.
If you dont want a baby and you have no way of supporting one than keep your pants on untill you do.

Luc Solar
11-09-2002, 07:41 PM
Okay...I admit, I didn't read the stuff posted here.

All I got to say is this:

It's nothing but a few god damn cells. Why the hell would it not be okay to terminate the process?

Perhaps because something in a certain 2k old book could be interpreted in a way that abortion is not a cool thing to do?

Yeah right... and all gay people should be stoned to death and all you guys should be busy cutting the throats of lambs and rubbing the blood on pretty little golden trinkets.

If all you got to lean on is some ridiculous argument based on something that someone thinks that the bible says, then... I pity you fools.

Use your brain. Disregard the silly interpretations of the bible. Let common sense rule.

Darth Simpson
11-09-2002, 07:43 PM
I don't want to keep my pants on until I can support a child. But that's not the point. Accidents do happen you know. Even the best protection fails at times, and what's a poor girl to do then?

If I Pull a tree out of the ground wile its still in the seed form and has barley started to sprout does that not me i didnt kill it?

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here...

Look, I know I'm not going to agree with you on this, so I'm just going to stop the argument before this turns into something ugly.

CagedCrado
11-09-2002, 07:49 PM
An embryo has the potential to become human, so if you kill it you are destroying its future, end of story. Abortion is wrong, you want to control population DONT HAVE SEX. You cant afford a baby DONT HAVE SEX. If you get raped and you cant afford a baby the government should put it up for adoption. If you are saying it is alright to kill something with the potential to live a long happy life, you are also saying it is alright to kill a 5 year old because he isnt developed yet. cjais, you make me sick. cjais has a disgusting view on the subject and seems to be some what nazi to me.

C'jais
11-09-2002, 08:59 PM
Without abortion, men have a powerful tool to dominate women with and keep them out of the workforce. This has been done for centuries and is one of the main causes of sexual inequality.

How?

When a women is pregnant, she's preoccupied for at least 5 years taking care of the child. If a man can constantly keep her pregnant, he can constantly keep her from working - dominating the home with his income and leaving his wife to taking care of the kids.

Why, can't the wife just give her babies away? Well, for one, the mother develops a strong bond with the baby during pregnancy - it's not just something you just do. Secondly, the husband is sure to have a say in this matter.

Let the woman have the choice in pregnancy.

Crado: I'm not the one being narrowminded here.

acdcfanbill
11-09-2002, 09:05 PM
Some Good discussion going on here people, make sure to keep it civil and respectful... :D

C'jais
11-09-2002, 09:21 PM
Thanks ACDC, if this gets more out of hand or degrades to name calling, I'll personally close this thread.

Elijah
11-09-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by cjais
Why, can't the wife just give her babies away? Well, for one, the mother develops a strong bond with the baby during pregnancy - it's not just something you just do. Secondly, the husband is sure to have a say in this matter.

If she has bonded to it so much how can she go and abort it?

C'jais
11-09-2002, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by ZDawg

If she has bonded to it so much how can she go and abort it?

Because you abort it early in the pregnancy.

As far as I've heard, we're talking about a major psychic backlash here, but who am I to know - me being just a boy.

OnlyOneCanoli
11-09-2002, 10:59 PM
My personal view is that it's wrong. I believe that when you abort a pregnancy, you are destroying the possibility of life. I would much rather see a woman accept the responsibility for her actions, and put the child up for adoption if she cannot support it.

There are cases, of course, that abortion should be allowed. If the mother's life is in danger, if she was raped, if it was incest, etc.

If I accidentally impregnated my girlfriend, I'd be ashamed to have an abortion. That's my personal belief. I would, however, not stop her from making the final decision.

If you can't figure it out yet, I do not support state laws against abortion (i.e. illegal abortions). The woman should have the right to choose (in accordance with Roe v. Wade), even though my personal beliefs (non-religious, being an atheist myself) are against it.

StormHammer
11-09-2002, 11:17 PM
It's good to see there's some reasoned debate going on about this topic...because the question at the top of this thread is really hard to answer, especially if you are of the male gender. By that I mean, until you actually become a father (i.e., your partner becomes pregnant, which I view as the beginning of parenthood), you have absolutely no frame of reference on such a decision.

Ten years ago, I would have said...hey, the woman carries the baby, it's her body and it should be her choice what to do with it.

I can't say the same today. One single event totally changed my perceptions and feelings on the matter...the day my wife had a miscarriage. We had both decided to start a family...and we were overjoyed when we learned she was pregnant. Things were going great until about 12 weeks in...and then it all went totally, horribly wrong.

It's not until your unborn child dies that you can fully appreciate life itself. And yes...I do view it as a child, not a lump of cells, or a fetus, or whatever else you want to call it. To view it as anything other than my child would be a betrayal of it's struggle for life and eventual demise, IMHO.

I can tell you, plain and simple, that loss tore my guts out...as a father. It takes two people to make a baby...and both should be prepared for their eventual responsibilities as parents. I know I was... You see, although that baby grew in the womb, and was going to be my wife's responsibility for the first 9 months until it was born...that child was also a part of me. I helped to create that life...and as it's father, I perceived that I had a right to some say in what happened to it. Except any decisions were totally taken out of our hands.

Yes, there are occasions (such as rape cases) where a child is not wanted...where it is forced on someone, and that is truly regrettable. I still can't decide where I stand in that scenario...it doesn't seem right that a woman has to bear that kind of responsibility after such a trauma.

But if we're talking two mature adults seeking parenthood...and the woman decides to have an abortion...I just can't agree with that any more.

Also, when we lost our first child, I was totally appalled by the lack of emotion or dignity the medical profession afforded it. Because their view is that it was not really a child at all, simply a fetus (a bunch of cells), they treated it like a piece of meat. The only good thing that came out of that experience, is that afterwards I wrote the hospital a letter, telling them how I felt as a father...and some of their processes in dealing with such situations actually changed.

So, from where I'm sitting now, as the proud father of two boys, I can't agree with the taking of a life...no matter how early, or at what stage...and perhaps, even, for what reason.

Of course, that's just my opinion, and I'm not trying to foist it on anyone else. I just feel that a lot of people make a decision based on what they think is right, without having a true frame of reference for such a decision.

TheWhiteRaider
11-10-2002, 04:19 AM
It can't feel, it can't think.

And how would you know? I don't know about you I can't remeber anything much in my mother. But then I can't remember when I was 2 or 3. A little around 4. It might still think in it's mother.

TK_Nutritious
11-10-2002, 04:19 AM
Another question to pose to you, what do you base your beliefs on what is right and what is wrong? Why is murder wrong? Because that's how you were taught? that's what the law says? If you say it's ok to kill because it hasn't developed nerves, does that mean it's ok for me to kill someone in their sleep? They probly won't feel it, besides they're gonna die anyway it's better this way isn't it? I disagree.

If a parent does not wish to take the responsibility for their actions adoption is always an option to take. You say this option is ruled out because mothers tend to develop an emotional attachment to the child during pregnancy. This is the natural order of things, I say the more love in the world the better. To say it would be better to destroy the possibility of falling in love with a life created within/via (female/male) you, rather than allow it the chance at a long and happy life is a flawed logic.

In closing I'm glad my mother had the conviction and love for me that she didn't decide to terminate my life before I had the opportunity to lead my own life. For one to support the destroying of others' lives before those had their chance, yet enjoy the fact that their own life was allowed to progress seems to me to be the biggest form of selfishness and hypocrisy.

TheWhiteRaider
11-10-2002, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by cjais
Without abortion, men have a powerful tool to dominate women with and keep them out of the workforce. This has been done for centuries and is one of the main causes of sexual inequality.

How?

When a women is pregnant, she's preoccupied for at least 5 years taking care of the child. If a man can constantly keep her pregnant, he can constantly keep her from working - dominating the home with his income and leaving his wife to taking care of the kids.

Why, can't the wife just give her babies away? Well, for one, the mother develops a strong bond with the baby during pregnancy - it's not just something you just do. Secondly, the husband is sure to have a say in this matter.

Let the woman have the choice in pregnancy.

Crado: I'm not the one being narrowminded here.

You know how she gets to chose..... SHE DOESN'T HAVE SEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!
Rape you say? Oh please though it does happen 75% of abortion come from people who had the fun and did not want to pay for it.

ondrahosek
11-10-2002, 04:38 AM
Agree with you, TK_Nutritious. People who abort the pregnancy don't realize that there are also some people who DO want to have a baby. So they can adopt it... Easy as anything... And if you want to prevent pregnancy, there are other "tools" (makes me feel like a pervert :o) to do this...


I am human. I have a life. I have feelings. And those feelings can easily get hurt. Never try to hurt them, for then they turn cold-hearted against you.
Religious people call the life and the feelings the soul. It can be poked or hurt, but it will be always there.

I am quoting myself here. I know a lot abot psychology, and parts of it have to do with religion. Though I am not religious, I am not discriminating religious people.

Er... how old are you, TheWhiteRaider?

ZePhyR
11-10-2002, 04:39 AM
I'm not even going to read this thread. But is it really nessecary to talk about this on a forum where there are mostly young teenagers browsing around? Is this something they really need to discuss? I don't think so.

ondrahosek
11-10-2002, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by ZePhyR
I'm not even going to read this thread. But is it really nessecary to talk about this on a forum where there are mostly young teenagers browsing around? Is this something they really need to discuss? I don't think so.

This is the future, ZePh... Nowadays, all this is a subject even of teenagers... No one knows why... Or do you? I don't think so. Today it's just as normal as girls talking about the new albums of Shakira (analogy)... The one whole subject, sex, IS what teenagers are mostly interested in... Do you disagree, ZePh?

This post means no offense to anyone. If anybody does not like it, feel free to delete it, but please don't ban me...

TheWhiteRaider
11-10-2002, 04:58 AM
Er... how old are you, TheWhiteRaider?

16 on Janurary 11 why?

ondrahosek
11-10-2002, 05:02 AM
16 on Janurary 11 why?

Well, people have sex mainly for pleasure...and I thought you would know it...
Getting banned in 12 seconds....

TheWhiteRaider
11-10-2002, 05:09 AM
Yes I do know. That is the problem. Well a news flash. That is not what sex is for. So it doesn't matter what you have it for you are getting all of it even if you don't like it and maby you can think of that before you have sex.

Redwing
11-10-2002, 07:12 AM
I believe abortion is wrong. I don't understand the saying "It's a women's right to choose". It doesn't have anything to do with abortion inherently. It just gets women to instinctively shut up by making them afraid they'll be taking away their own precious hard-fought rights just by this one issue, and the same for men afraid of infringing on women's "right to choose" period - implying that if you take away abortion no women will be able to choose anything. It's a silly psychological trap. (I know when I first heard "women's right to choose" I thought I was totally in support of it! Until I knew exactly what the choice was.)

Without abortion, men have a powerful tool to dominate women with and keep them out of the workforce. This has been done for centuries and is one of the main causes of sexual inequality.


That's an unfair argument. Inferring from that, pregnancy is a great evil. Except none of us would be here without it. You would have been right, say, fifty years ago, when men controlled their wives in marriages, but it isn't like that anymore. My mother was pregnant four times while in the workforce, and she never left it. She has had two abortions and...well...when you have as many children as her, and love them as much as she does, there's always the knowledge that the two babies she chose to abort could have been children like us...and knowing that how could you say an unborn baby is not a life? What about the baby who was denied life so her/his mother could have fun an extra nine months??


*Handy Topic Switch Alert!*

I'm not even going to read this thread. But is it really nessecary to talk about this on a forum where there are mostly young teenagers browsing around? Is this something they really need to discuss? I don't think so.

:confused: Where do you come from all holier than thou and attack us out of the blue? If you aren't going to use freedom of expression, it doesn't give you the right to squelch ours. grrrrr. -.-

C'jais
11-10-2002, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider


And how would you know? I don't know about you I can't remeber anything much in my mother. But then I can't remember when I was 2 or 3. A little around 4. It might still think in it's mother.

It can't think because it doesn't have a brain, nor a nervous system.

Of course, this involves aborting the child before it has developed such things.

C'jais
11-10-2002, 08:53 AM
I do not regard life as holy. Nor is marriage some holy union - it's a practical commitment in many ways though.

Women need to have the choice because a pregnancy is not "fun" for the woman, and the man couldn't care less from his own point of view.

All this comes down to that you shouldn't have sex before marriage and that sex is something only done to procreate. It's not going to happen and humans have developed to such a stage where they do practice sex for pleasure and nothing else.

Some countries are already nearly dead religiously speaking and abortion is freely used in them.

Ireland, being the most religious european country are constantly shifting their opinion towards abortion toward yes. Many people are each day realizing that times have changed and that we are deep down animals that have needs - sex without having to worry about the child afterwards being one of them.

Stormhammer, I know I'd feel the same way as you, and that when my time comes to have a child, my opinion might change. But maybe the 16 year old girl won't feel the same way - maybe she think pregnancy is hell, and that she isn't ready to cope with a child just yet. Give her the choice, don't enforce your view of the world onto her.

StormHammer
11-10-2002, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by cjais
I do not regard life as holy.

Nor do I...but I value life above all other things. :)

...and the man couldn't care less from his own point of view.

This may be true of some men...but not all. Don't tar everyone with the same brush. Many men are extremely supportive of their partners throughout pregnancy. Given the choice, I'm sure some men would prefer to stay home and look after their partners throughout the term of pregnancy...but society doesn't work that way. Just because you're not carrying the baby around, going through morning sickness and all the rest of it...doesn't mean you don't care, and can't empathise.

All this comes down to that you shouldn't have sex before marriage and that sex is something only done to procreate. It's not going to happen and humans have developed to such a stage where they do practice sex for pleasure and nothing else.

Well, you're entitled to your viewpoint...but I'm entitled to disgree with it. Yes, people have sex for pleasure...but your inference is that it's solely for the purpose of self-gratification. I have to disagree...because if you are mature enough, you understand the consequences of sexual activity, and you plan for when you are ready to have a child (if ever). :)

Stormhammer, I know I'd feel the same way as you, and that when my time comes to have a child, my opinion might change. But maybe the 16 year old girl won't feel the same way - maybe she think pregnancy is hell, and that she isn't ready to cope with a child just yet. Give her the choice, don't enforce your view of the world onto her.

Therein lies the crux of the problem. As far as I'm concerned, a 16 year old (male or female) is still not mature enough to deal with the consequences of sex...and I don't just mean pregnancy. Teenage pregnancies are increasing, and people are exploring sex at younger and younger ages...which is one reason why I totally agree with sex education in schools. However...sex education should not be conducted in isolation...because it doesn't look deeply enough at the consequences of pregnancy and parenthood. Some of this is now changing...and in the UK at least some schools are now exploring responsibilities as parents, and real-world living.

Personally, I don't think someone is ready for parenthood until they're about 20. They've finished growing themselves by that time, and hopefully they've left their parents home and got real-life experiences under their belt by then, and should have a more mature outlook on the world in general.

I don't mean to preach, but I'll offer a little advice. Don't even contemplate having a child...until you have left your parents home, and have assured yourself that you can stand on your own two feet, and are willing to shoulder the responsibilities of your own destiny. If you're comfortable managing your own affairs, then you're ready to start looking at managing the affairs of others, namely a child. If you can't manage your own affairs, you're opening yourself up to a world of hurt when a baby comes along.

I see too many people planning to get married, and raise families, and they haven't even left their parent's home yet. Which means they have not yet even tried to manage a house (or apartment) on their own, and all of the responsibilities that go with it. That can be hard enough on it's own when you set out.

Anyway, back to the point of the 16 year old girl...yes, I agree that she should be in charge of whether or not she gets pregnant. That's not to say that she is solely responsible for contraception...but she should be ensuring her partner is mature enough to take responsibility for that as well. If someone is pressuring you in any way, at any time, to have a child, and you're not comfortable with it, then for God's sake tell them, and ask to sit down and discuss it. If they're not willing to do that...walk away.

All I can say is...if you're going to have sex with someone at a young age...then make sure you both fully understand what you are doing, and the consequences if your contraceptive measures fail.

C'jais
11-10-2002, 10:18 AM
Well said Stormhammer.

While the age of puberty is decreasing with time, I'll say any day that you do need a certain amount of experience before you go off impregnating or marrying someone.

It doesn't matter if you're physically capable of having babies if you're not mentally ready for it yet.

Just to clarify:

While I do not view life as holy, I'm very much against killing or harming any one - I won't even go as far as swatting mosquitoes if that makes you feel more comfortable. Life is to be respected and revered, I just don't agree with it being a religious matter.

TheWhiteRaider
11-11-2002, 10:33 PM
Do any of you know how the way they kill babys?

Here. Ones in bold are how far into the carrage. Ones in Italic are the methods.

--
1-2 months(Only the brain and and a few vital organs. The baby does have nerves after 6 weeks.)

Suction Method

A vacume tube is put into the mother's womb. The force created by the suction tears the baby into pieces and sucks it into a jar.

D & C(Dilation & Curettage)

This is where they take a circular knife and cut the baby into pieces and they drain them through the birth cannal.
--
3-5 months(All systems are there.)

D & E (dialation & evaculation)

A pair of forceps are out in the womb to cut the baby to pieces and then pull the pieces out. The piece are put together again to make sure everything is out.
--
5-6 months

Salt poisoning
Salt is put into the womb to choke the baby, put it into shock, destroy the baby's skin, and some other details.
--
7-9 months(The time where a baby is just getting to full size. The baby can live out side of the mother. 10,000 - 15,000 of these happen a year in the U.S.)

Hysterotomy Abortions
The baby is removed like a C section, but is laid aside on a table to die.

Parcial Birth Abortion
Just like normal birth, but when the baby starts to come out they stab it and suck out the brain.



Now you tell me if this cruel or not. Is that quick and painless? There have been times the baby crys during some of these. Mostly the later abortions.

mswanmmiv
11-11-2002, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider
Well a news flash. That is not what sex is for.

What?!

I know you are a Christian, WhiteRaider. Have you never read the Bible?! In Song of Solomon... well... have you read it? Go read now! The whole thing is about sex. And it's in the Bible. Why would God have made it feel so good, if it was not for ( in some part ) pleasure!?

Eldritch
11-11-2002, 11:01 PM
I think what a women decides to do with her body (including the baby, which is part of her body until birth) is her own business. When all these pro-lifers say that they will adopt the babies that will otherwise be aborted, I'll sing a different tune. I don't see any Christian pro-lifers lining up to adopt HIV or drug-addicted babies that would've been aborted. They don't want to help, they just don't want the babies to die.

And 3rd trimester (7-9 months) abortions are TOTALLY illegal in the USA, so I'm not sure where you got that 10-15,000 number, WhiteRaider. If they do happen, they're illegal and the offenders would be prosecuted just like any other crime.

TheWhiteRaider
11-11-2002, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by mswanmmiv


What?!

I know you are a Christian, WhiteRaider. Have you never read the Bible?! In Song of Solomon... well... have you read it? Go read now! The whole thing is about sex. And it's in the Bible. Why would God have made it feel so good, if it was not for ( in some part ) pleasure!?

I know. What I mean is that it is not only for pleasure. I believe that he made it feel good so we would not be afraid to have it. But it is not made for pleasure. And dispite what people have it for it is ment for reproducing.

mswanmmiv
11-11-2002, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider

And dispite what people have it for it is ment for reproducing.

Tell me, where in the Bible is it said that it is only for reproduction?

TheWhiteRaider
11-11-2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by JEDI_Anakin_S
I think what a women decides to do with her body (including the baby, which is part of her body until birth) is her own business. When all these pro-lifers say that they will adopt the babies that will otherwise be aborted, I'll sing a different tune. I don't see any Christian pro-lifers lining up to adopt HIV or drug-addicted babies that would've been aborted. They don't want to help, they just don't want the babies to die.

And 3rd trimester (7-9 months) abortions are TOTALLY illegal in the USA, so I'm not sure where you got that 10-15,000 number, WhiteRaider. If they do happen, they're illegal and the offenders would be prosecuted just like any other crime.

Illegal you say? Drugs are Illegal, but how many O.D.s still happen? How many people still die from them? It is more like 12 million for 1-4 month abortion. So those numbers aren't radical. Other countrys it is perfectly legal though.

TheWhiteRaider
11-11-2002, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by mswanmmiv


Tell me, where in the Bible is it said that it is only for reproduction?

Where does it say that it is only for pleasure? We can go on for hours, but either way you put it a baby is made by it. That is my point.

When all these pro-lifers say that they will adopt the babies that will otherwise be aborted,

I did not say that I would. There are people out there that try to adopt babys. And lately it has been harder and harder to find babys to adopt(I wonder why). So just because we don't take them doesn't everyone will not. And there are some Pro-life people that can't have their own babys so they adopt.

TheWhiteRaider
11-11-2002, 11:31 PM
It can't think because it doesn't have a brain, nor a nervous system.

I didn't see this post before.

It gets a nervous system at 9 weeks. Most abortion happen after this time. The brain is the first thing to form in it at 4-6 weeks.

Eldritch
11-11-2002, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider

I did not say that I would. There are people out there that try to adopt babys. And lately it has been harder and harder to find babys to adopt(I wonder why). So just because we don't take them doesn't everyone will not. And there are some Pro-life people that can't have their own babys so they adopt.

I know for a fact that's bullsh*t. My sister is a social worker and she knows how many babies need adoption. It's absolutely not gotten "harder and harder" to find babies to adopt. Next time check your facts before you try and argue.

And as an extra note to you : Your opinion or what you think does NOT count as a fact, no matter how much you want it to. There are plenty of babies suffering because no one wants to adopt them. Just because they're all not healthy WHITE babies you can't say there's a shortage of adoptable babies. You're extremely uneducated in the matter, so shut your mouth - you're just making yourself look silly.

Weapon X
11-11-2002, 11:39 PM
ya know, don't flame me or nothin, i haven't read all of the posts on this thread, but from what i did, you all hate abortion, i don't care, it's the woman who has to deal with that decision, and i'm sure whatever they choose they are torn apart in the process, what if they want to have kids, just not yet? just cuz a woman has sex doesn't mean they should be required to give birth to a child that developes in 9 months, at the stage when they kill the fetus, it is just cells that's all, it doesn't feel pain, it doesn't know what life is, it has no way of knowing what anything is, it doesn't know what it's missing, so it's even less than killing an animal, all of you who eat cows, why is it wrong to kill cells instead of something that knows what life is? a cow knows what life is more than a new fetus, so what do you say about that? you have no problem killing insects or other animals, then why do you have a problem with killing something less developed than a plant? it makes no sense to me, any smart woman that gets raped would have a rape kit done, you should all know what that means, since most of you are older than 16 and I know what it is, and then if two people really love each other, let's say they're married, and they aren't ready for kids yet cuz they're both going through school, should their child live in a house where the dad has to work so much more cuz they had no built-up money? and the mom can't get a job cuz she had a kid too early in life? or should their child be entitled to what the parents are fully capable of? where both parents have degrees and saved up money, and better jobs than what they would've had, killing someone who is already alive and has been for even an hour is TOTALLY, COMPLETELY, AND UTTERLY different than killing a 2 week old fetus or even a 6 month old fetus, why the mother would wait that long is beyond me, but it happens, abortions are not wrong, it's not as bad as killing an insect, cuz the insect at least knows what life is, the fetus is just a bunch of cells replicating and trying to form a human life, just cuz it will one day be a human being you think it's wrong, but you don't care whether an animal, insect or plant dies, you people disgust me, cuz you only look at our species, but when you think about it killing a fetus isn't anywhere near as bad as shooting any kind of animal that has been alive if for only 2 weeks

TheWhiteRaider
11-11-2002, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by JEDI_Anakin_S


I know for a fact that's bullsh*t. My sister is a social worker and she knows how many babies need adoption. It's absolutely not gotten "harder and harder" to find babies to adopt. Next time check your facts before you try and argue.

And as an extra note to you : Your opinion or what you think does NOT count as a fact, no matter how much you want it to. There are plenty of babies suffering because no one wants to adopt them. Just because they're all not healthy WHITE babies you can't say there's a shortage of adoptable babies. You're extremely uneducated in the matter, so shut your mouth - you're just making yourself look silly.

Social worker in what state? And your failure to be informed doesn't make me stupid or uneducated. The same works the other way. And I do not only say it is true because of what I believe. I have heard alot of this from the mouth of respected doctors.

NerfYoda
11-12-2002, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider
Do any of you know how the way they kill babys?

Here. Ones in bold are how far into the carrage. Ones in Italic are the methods.

<snip various abortion methods>


Don't you think that's a little sensational? How else would you get an unwanted fetus out of someones uterus? I don't think asking nicely would work. :)

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 03:02 AM
I haven't read all the posts, but I am confused at the title. Abortion, Yay or nay? It's a common misconception, that all pro-choicers are pro-abortion. Indeed, Pro-Abortion would literally mean that you believe all women should get an abortion regardless of what they think. But the fact of the matter is, Pro-Choice simply means that you think a women or whomever, should be able to formulate their own opinions on the subject. So for example, you could be a nun, and think that abortions are horrible and immoral, and yet still be pro-choice in that you cherish being able to come to your own conclusions about abortion, and think that others deserve the same oppurtunity. Ironically, Pro-Lifers opinion, is that you shouldn't have one. I find it hipocritical, that they use the same power given to them, which allows human beings to think abstractly and formulate opinions, and try take that power away from others. Absolute nonsense. Rant and rave on the sidewalks about baby murder all you like, you have that right. But keep your laws off other womens bodies.

TheWhiteRaider
11-12-2002, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by NerfYoda


Don't you think that's a little sensational? How else would you get an unwanted fetus out of someones uterus? I don't think asking nicely would work. :)

You could always try it never hurts to ask.:D J/K

I know it. Just seems awful.

Here is something else. It is harmful to the mother. The chemicals in the body that gets a mother ready to feed, care for, ect. the baby of course don't know what to do when the baby is not there any more. So they just stay put, move, or leave the system. You know how women go through mood swings during carrages right? Sometimes it will mess up the system up there if the baby is gone. Also some of these can cause cancer. The later someone waits to worse off they are going to be. Unless they go through all the way untill the baby is out.

Also a woman only has so many eggs(they have them from birth). So if she did want a child later she is messing up here chances everytime she has a abortions.

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 03:22 AM
I do not smoke. Smoking causes cancer. I tell my friends they shouldn't smoke. Smoking is disgusting. Am I glad I have the right to smoke? Yes. See where I'm going with this?

Elijah
11-12-2002, 03:37 AM
Originally posted by Woodrodius
I do not smoke. Smoking causes cancer. I tell my friends they shouldn't smoke. Smoking is disgusting. Am I glad I have the right to smoke? Yes. See where I'm going with this?

Frankly your making yourself look rather foolish... When smoking you are dangering yourself (sometimes others)
Abortion you KILL the baby and endanger yourself... see where I’m going with this?

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 03:42 AM
I suppose it all depends on your definition of murder Zdawg. For example, If I jerk off, and shoot my load all over the floor, or my bed sheet, or whatever happens to be within range, I forfeit all chances for those sperms to become children. When a woman has her period, she is doing the same thing. When you use a contraceptive, again. Where's the cut-off point? Children don't learn abstract thought till the age of 5. If you shot a child of 3 in the stomach, and it was bleeding to death, it wouldn't know it was dying, or what death is. Now of course, that would be very wrong IMO because it's outside of the womb. But when it's inside there, it's not aware. Where do you draw the line?

Elijah
11-12-2002, 03:44 AM
When the sperm and the egg mix it becomes a human the moment it is fertilized. It’s that simple really.

IMO... I’m not telling you to agree with me, I’m just giving my opinion.

NerfYoda
11-12-2002, 03:46 AM
I draw the line at the point of birth still. It's not alive until its out. Up until then its just a bunch of organic matter that has the potential to be alive.

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 03:48 AM
More power to you Nerfyoda. And I understand what you were getting at Z, just get a little miffed when someone calls me foolish when I'm attemping to express myself. Courtesy, courtesty, courtesy.

STTCT
11-12-2002, 05:45 AM
Hey there- thought I'd put in my two cents on this debate.

Until you placed in the position of having to decide whether or not to abort - you really can't judge or know how you would react. Abortion is a VERY hard choice, and not to be made lightly. I think both the man and the woman should both take mutual part in the decision unless the circumstances are such that one or the other does not want to abort. I think there are too many people out there that make the decision lightly - and I think these people should be sterilized ;) but for those that are put in the position where this is the seeming only option for them - then they should be given the choice. I think though there should be like some sort of limit. Like you get one screw up and thats it.