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Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 05:17 AM
Bruce Lee vs. Mike Tyson, who would win, and why? I put my money on Tyson. I respect the whole Bruce Lee martial arts thing, but I just don't think the legend that surrounds him could match up to real life. Look at the Lennox vs. Tyson fight, sure Tyson got beat, but he went 8 rounds, taking a horrible beating from Lennox, and even after he went down, he was up within minutes chatting. Without a glove on, the destructive power of Mike Tyson's punches would be unimaginable, very literally lethal. A full force punch from Tyson with no glove would easily disable Lee, if not kill him. So, the question is, could Bruce Lee dish out enough damage to Tyson to disable him, (I.E. As much as damage as Lewis did to him in 8 rounds), without being hit once. Now remember, since this is a street fight, Tyson also gets to forego the rules of boxing, and is free to grabble or do as he pleases. I think Bruce Lee, with all due respect, would be a grease stain by the time Tyson got through with him. I just cannot imagine Lee being able to do anything that could stop a 300 pound (or however much he weighs) psycho like Tyson before he could get in one blow, which is pretty much all it would take. What do guys think? And don't just be like, Bruce Lee, because he knows pressure points and would use his one inch burning dragon death fist. Give me good arguments. Alright, GO!

Taos
11-11-2002, 05:24 AM
Bruce Lee......I just think the speed and moves he has would destroy Mike Tyson. He's also too fast for Tyson to try and bite off his ear! :D

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 05:28 AM
Bruce Lee is faster, but what is that going to get him, unless you mean he could probably outrun Tyson, which is one skill you may want to have whie fighting him. You say Lee is too fast for Tyson, explain what that entails. Do you think Lee could damage Mike so much that he would be unable to fight, before Mike could get a hit in. If so, explain how.

P.S. Also, if you vote, please post your opinion as to why you voted the way you did.

JediNyt
11-11-2002, 05:29 AM
Duh Bruce Lee was one of if not the greatest martial artist in the world. He could kill anyone with one hit. Hes too fast, too smart, too strong, so many more moves than Tyson would ever think of, you name it. You ask about speed? Speed in moves and reflexess and the strength to back it up. Lee was the best, period.

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 05:32 AM
Your response has no backup. I want good arguments here, not, "Bruce Lee would unleash 1,000 burning dragons and blow Tyson's head off." Bruce Lee could kill anyone in one hit, where did you obtain this information. Are you guessing?

leXX
11-11-2002, 06:35 AM
Fact is, we don't need to back it up with arguments. Bruce Lee was a martial artist and not just any martial artist but the best known to date. You simply cannot compare a boxer (who got his a$$ whopped by Lenox Lewis btw :D ) to Bruce Lee.

puuuuhhhhllleeeeeaaasssseeee :rolleyes:

:xp:

Luc Solar
11-11-2002, 06:39 AM
I say that Karelin would tear Tyson apart. He is one touch sob! :D

One good hit is all it takes. If Lee kicks Tysons knee-caps into smithereens, that's just about it. A boxer who can't stand up = end of fight.

I'd like to see the Graycie's or other shoot-fighters try beating Karelin. Jiu-jitsu against a wrestler..now that would be interesting! :cool:

Oh yeah: I vote Lee! No wait: Tyson! No...Lee! Boxers only know how to use their hands.
I "fought" a boxer once and he was totally confused and helpless against kicks or sweeps and such.

But isn't this like one of those paper-scissors-rock-scenarios?
-->
Paper beats rock (that makes no sense btw!) but scissors beat paper even though they lose to the rock which gets pwned by paper easily...you know? :D

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 06:39 AM
Once again, a reply with no date to prove it. I think the legend of Bruce Lee has saturated some of you people, to the point where fact doesn't matter, He would simply win because he is Bruce Lee. If that is your opinion, I will respect it, so long as you can given me reason to validate your opinion. (I.E. facts) You guys keep saying that Bruce Lee was the greatest martial artist ever. Can you tell me why? I bet you can't. :)

leXX
11-11-2002, 06:45 AM
I bet I can.

The skill you saw on screen was the skill he had in real life. If you have seen any documentaries or anything on Bruce Lee then you would know this. During filming once, he kicked a guy 20 feet. Now that is power. I know the essence of martial arts because I'm a black belt in karate and let me tell you this, you put any half decent martial artist up against any boxer and the martial artist will win every time. What has a boxer got? Hands. What has a martial artist got?

exactly

nuff said.

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 06:48 AM
Luc Solar,

Once again, im not arguing what style is stronger, that is pointless. There are no superior martial arts, only superior martial artists. Do I think Bruce Lee could of mopped the floor with a large cross-section of boxers? Of course. But had I asked, who would win, Mike Tyson vs Any Competent Jeet Kun Do student, most of you would be geared towards Tyson. (at least I should hope). It's Tyson's sheer destructive force, and ability to take punishment that would ultimately allow him to prevail over Lee. You say Lee would take out his kneecaps? How would he do this? The only thing that Lee could be concentrating on is not getting hit by Tyson. If Tyson charges, and Lee skips in for a lower leg attack, the angle of his leg would put Lee inside Tyson's punching range. Result, Tysons limping, Lee's head is all over the ground like a smashed pumpkin. What Lee would have to do is keep him outside Tyson's punching radius, using full length extension kicks such as side kicks, or completely staying on the outside. I am a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and an avid competetor in olympic style Tae Kwon Do sparring, and it has taught me a lot about danger zones, and staying outside the reaches of others. I believe if Lee were able to stay out of Tysons danger zone, he would be unable to attack Lee himself.

leXX
11-11-2002, 06:51 AM
Why are you asking about Tyson anyway? Shouldn't you be asking about Lenox Lewis? He is the current heavyweight champion and made Tyson look rather silly. :xp:

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 06:57 AM
Lexx, I believe your Karate background may be the reason you have some misconceptions about the way real fighting works. Tae Kwon Do sparring is a game, wholly different then real street fighting, but it has one aspect that teaches you important fundamentals that point sparring styles used in Karate omit. It never stops. The improvision taught by non-stop combat is important, and is the basis to which I draw my opinion in the case of Tyson vs. Lee. Mainly, it isn't all level and skill. I've seen canidate black belts, not even to their first Dan (degree), make fools of 4th degree black belts in sparring matches. Bruce Lee's style of martial art isn't geared towards fighting a brutish monster like Tyson, moreso, a very elgant and intelligent form of combat. You still aren't able to tell me why Bruce Lee is the best martial artist on earth. He kicks a guy 20 feet you say. This is irrelevant. Where did you see this footage, was it correographed, or was it impromptu fighting, or a tournament of some kind. I stick to my conclusion that as tough and skilled as Lee was, he would not be able to tip the damage balance with Tyson and would ultimately succumb to a fighter who is more conditioned to take and dish out damage then he is. Also, you keep making references to the limits of boxing, such as, boxers have only their hands. I repeat that in this street fight, Tyson has it all, anything he wishes to use, (Albeit falling back on his boxing training, he would mostly be using his hands, but, what more does he need?) I'd really like to argue about this subject, but Im afraid I haven't gotten much in the way of a valid point, (with the exception of the Knee-attack post, which I attempted to address in an earlier post.) Keep those replies coming.

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 07:06 AM
Lexx, in response your last post. Lennox beat Tyson using mainly the restrictions of boxing. Elongated reach, (Which Lee does not have, as we wasn't a large fellow), the ability to Tie up,(Which pretty much cost Tyson the fight), and of course the other restrictions of boxing. Since Lennox was able to Tie up with Tyson most of the fight, peppering him as he apporached, and rushing in to be inside of Tysons devestating punch radius, he was able to dominate the fight. When boxers tie up, they are not allowed to push eachother away, or hit eachother in the back of the heads, ect. Lennox use the rules to beat Tyson, so, Superior Boxer? Maybe. Could he take Tyson in the parking lot, I doubt it, but thats not were trying to debate. If Bruce Lee and Tyson were to box, with all those rules applying, I might give it to Lee, because the damage factor would be less, and there is always the descision win to consider. Lee could probably weave, dodge, and tie his way up to a descision victory. Could he knock him out? I doubt it. But since were talking a street fight, everything changes. If Lennox tried to tie up with Tyson on the street, the far bulkier and stronger Tyson would put Lewis to the ground, and proceeded to land unimaginably powerful blows while he was on the ground. That is why I chose Tyson and not lewis. If it were a boxing match, I might take Lewis to fight Lee, because of the reach factor. Hope that answers your question Lexx.

leXX
11-11-2002, 07:06 AM
ok dude, you just keep telling yourself that Tyson would win. You believe whatever you wanna believe. Why did Lewis kick his a$$ if he's so 'powerful'?

btw: the footage of Lee kicking that guy wasn't choreographed, it was real, I'm surprised you havn't seen it and I have no misconceptions about how 'real' fighting works, I've been in plenty of street fights.

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 07:14 AM
Lexx, I'm not "just telling myself that Tyson would win." I've been going out of my way to negate points given by others, which have been few and far between, and telling you why I think he could win. Most of what I heard from others is, Bruce Lee would win because he's fast, or simply because he is Bruce Lee. I explained, in more then sufficent detail I might add, my reasons for drawing my conclusion. Yet you haven't given me too many reasons why you've drawn yours? I believe I've addressed all of your points, and If you believe I have failed to do so, then by all means point out which ones you'd like me to address. But don't expect me to value your rebuttal if you simply say, "Your just telling yourself Tyson would win." I could just as easily state that you are only telling yourself that Bruce Lee would win. (And be, in my opinion, more validated in doing so, as I have attempted to use fact and date to back up opinion). Also, you never addressed my question, "Why is Bruce Lee the world's best martial artist?" And I'd like it in the format of, "Bruce Lee is the world's best martial artist because........." Keep em coming.

Luc Solar
11-11-2002, 07:17 AM
It's one thing to take a hit when someone is using boxing gloves. It's a whole different story if the opponent tries to BREAK you, not score points or knock you out.

(f.ex: I'd like to see Tyson fight after Lee has poked his eyes out.)

People are fragile when they're hit in the right way.

Boxers in general would beat the crap out of regular yellow-belt martial artist wannabees.

But:

An experienced martial artist has such a large arsenal of techniques that boxers are in big trouble.

Btw - I agree 100% with what you said There are no superior martial arts, only superior martial artists.

Anyways.. Go Karelin GO! :D


http://www.karelin.ru/image/portret/03.jpg

Who wants to mess with Karelin?

leXX
11-11-2002, 07:21 AM
I've said my bit already, I ain't going into no more detail because I truly can't be arsed. Like I said, I believe any half decent martial artist can beat any boxer, end of story, that's my view, fullstop.

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 07:25 AM
Well thats not my Line solar, so I take no credit for it, it was on a website somewhere. To address your points, I understand that martial artist would have a lot more "moves" at his disposal, but I believe that point is moot. My point is that Mike Tyson only needs the moves he has to put Lee to the ground. Tyson is a machine, built to take damage, and dish it out. (Moreso the latter then the Former.) I find it hard to believe that Bruce Lee had some "special technique" that would turn an ill tempered Tyson on his ear. I think the grittiness of what would be Tyson's street style would be extremely hard for Lee to counter. I believe his fighting focus would have to be too geared towards either doing damage, or avoiding it, to give much thought to either other. Tyson on the other hand, in my opinion, who has been hit his whole life due to his boxing career, would be able to take a few shots from Lee on his way in, while Ultimately smashing through his defenses and landing one, if not multible devastating, fight-ending blows. Solar I must say, you are doing the best arguing out of this group so far, keep it up.

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 07:30 AM
Well Lexx, as I've said before, you've truly failed to address any of my points, while I've taken thought and responded to all of yours. If you simply cannot answer and you concede, fine, but I can't stand the "Your wrong, I'm leaving" approach. It really doesn't get you or I anywhere. Good arguing skills are good life skills, as it is important to be able to convey your point rationally and backup your opinions. I asked you answer my question, which can be read a few posts up. You say I'm wrong and your leaving. I truly believe that you cannot do what I have asked. If you can, please do. Otherwise, admit you can't. Cheap shots on the way out the door don't suit anyone :D

leXX
11-11-2002, 07:35 AM
Your tone is very arrogant, I would watch it if I were you! Ask anyone around here if I can argue a point or not, believe me I can, I can argue until the cows come home. Just because you started this thread and wish to discuss it at this moment in time doesn't mean I do, so don't EVER talk down to me again.

ok, I will argue this out with you.

*argument to follow*

Luc Solar
11-11-2002, 07:40 AM
*skuttles away and takes cover waving a Go-Karelin-Go! -flag* :p

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 07:46 AM
Lexx, you call my reply arrogance, yet, were you the one saying, "Dude, your just telling yourself Tyson would win." This statement is attempting to undermine all the reasons I've given for my opinion being what it was. You did not attempt to rebutt or address anything I said, but rather merely blow me off. You say you have a reputation for being able to produce a good argument on these forums. I don't doubt it. Show me.



P.S. While I don't want this to turn into a flame war, or begin to draw too far from the subject, a quick argument about this topic is acceptable so long as it is professionally done. But other then that, let's attempt to keep this headed in the direction of Lee vs. Tyson.

leXX
11-11-2002, 07:53 AM
You say a full force punch from Tyson would disable Lee, I disagree. That is the basis for you argument, the power of Tyson and his ability to take a punch. Lee could take a poweful punch the same as Tyson could and I believe had just as much power. In a street fight, Tyson would be ducking and weaving and choosing his shots but Lee would be doing the exact same thing and that is where the marial arts skill come in. Lee was way more agile on his feet and I very much doubt Tyson would even get a punch in. The counter skills of Lee were just too great. Lee would break him down slowly and I believe his endurance skills were superior to Tysons. Now we come to weapons. In a street fight, ppl pick up weapons. Lee was trained in the use of many weapons and Tyson was not. Lee would knock 10 kinds of $hit outta Tyson if they both had weapons.

The fact is, the speed of Lee was far superior to the speed of any boxer and that is what would win him the fight. Yes, Tyson was light on his feet but was he as light on them as Lee? No. It is the block/counter that will win any fight and that is where Lee's skill vastly outweights that of Tyson.

C'jais
11-11-2002, 08:09 AM
This is rediculous IMHO.

One hit well placed hit from Lee in the milt or liver would knock out any man - humans are surprisingly fragile.

When all you need is one hit - the faster is going to win.

You're saying Tyson is a machine built to take damage. An expert martial artist can kill a bull with one punch or kick.

Tyson would be dead before the fight started.

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 08:11 AM
Your points are valid and I will address them in a moment, but first I must address the weapons issue. I believe we should leave weapons out of this because that turn's the whole argument on his head. The thread could be very well be called Me with an MP5 vs Bruce Lee. (And if you guys still put your money on Lee, well, then your beyond help. :))
Now your other points. it's difficult to actually prove that Tyson could take more punishment then Lee, or if Lee could dish out as much damage as Tyson, but i will give you my opinion. I believe Tyson could take more punishment because of his boxing career. Boxers with glass jaws dont stand the test the time, Tyson did. He was taking shots from Holyfield, Lewis, and a myriad of other heavyweight boxers that would pound you and me into apple sauce. Bruce Lee's acting career couldn't provide him with expierience like this. True, Bruce Lee was a fighter, (Though not to the extent that his legend portray's him in my opnion). But there is a substantial difference between merely fighting other martial artist's in the street or in the dojo or whatever to better yourself, and the kind of punishment that Tyson or any other boxer (Especially heavyweight, and especially Tyson, as his success as a fighter has landed him in the ring with many tough hombres) must endure to make it to the top. Again, the speed issue becomes a bit a moot point. If you are saying that Lee could probably avoid being hit by Tyson, then I agree. But I think in doing so, (Due to Lee's short range) Lee would not give himself any oppurtunity to attack. As I said, the only safe (and I daresay that even this would be slightly risky) attack on Tyson would be fully extended leg attacks, such as side kicks to keep Tyson far enough away that you would be out of his danger zone. While these attacks may work for a little while, I don't believe that they would be sufficient in stopping Tyson, and that Inevitably, Lee would have to get in closer to due any real damage, and would be overpowered by Tyson's punches. It truly doesn't matter how fancy your style is, indeed, simpler is far better when fighting, less can go wrong the simpler your technique is. If you are trying to argue whether or not Lee could take Tysons punches and keep fighting, I cannot prove it one way or another. All I can say is this, people can and have died of head trauma in the boxing ring. Tyson is considered one of the most devestating punchers in boxing history. Take the gloves off, and the brutality of his blows are upped substantially. I think to presume Lee could take many, (if any!) shots of this caliber is far-fetched, he is after all, just a man.

Jah Warrior
11-11-2002, 08:26 AM
Listen this is the way it is i am not open to negotiation on the matter. I am the one telling you the way it IS!


Tyson:- pure brute strength. trust me this dude is psychotic, i doubt he uses one Mhz of his brain power on strategy. He simply bludgeons people. He has no control or finnesse. I would liken this fella to a JK2 player that only uses red stance, simply mashing the oponent until a hit finally lands. I think if Tyson "managed" to land a punch that connects properly he could probably knock any man out.

Bruce Lee:- Strategic fighter, he understands the philosophy of combat and how to exploit weaknesses in the opponent and make the opposition work against themself. This is a tactical fighter and similarly can be likened to a yellow/blue stance fighter in JK2. His small stature could be a weakness but i would be confident to wager that Lee would use this as his strength and utilise a flowing speedy technique to simply work around the more cumbersome swings of a fighter like Tyson.


This fight would be amazing, i can picture it now....

Tyson goes straight for the kill, Lee hangs back watching for the opening. Tyson starts to swing wildly in the hope that one of his club fists actually connects, Lee dodges every swing with ease almost toying with tyson. Tyson finally makes his last and ultimately flawed swing throwing himself off balance. Lee sweeps tyson decking him in one and finishes him off with a punch to the throat leaving Tyson gasping for air, incapacitated. The referee counts to 10 Tyson is out. Bruce Lee bows to the referee, and then bows to Tyson who has regained his feet, tyson swings at bruce as he bows, Bruce dodges and counters with a one inch punch throwing tyson in a crumpled heap to the floor...

"Never take your eyes off your opponent, even when you bow" Bruce Lee - Enter The Dragon

leXX
11-11-2002, 08:26 AM
Bruce Lee's acting career couldn't provide him with expierience like this.

Oh I see, you are basing your argument on Bruce Lee's film career! :rolleyes:

Have you got even the slightest idea what Lee went through when he was training to become a martial artist? I don't think you do. I think you should do some research into the 'real' life of Bruce Lee before you continue with this argument.

To train to become a martial artist, you don't simply learn how to duck and weave and power punch like a boxer, there are many many facits to obtain. You seem to have this image in your head that Lee didn't do any actual real fighting in his life! He trained damn hard every day and took many a punch, so don't think that his jaw is any weaker than Tysons.

ok, so you want to avoid the weapons issue, I don't blame you but lets just call it a fight with sticks, who would win?

The only safe attacks on Tyson are not leg attacks, indeed, the closer Lee is to Tyson, the more advantage he would have. He would block with his vastly superior blocking skills, and then come in close to attack him. Tyson would have a mirriad of punches and kicks on him before he even knew what hit him.

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 08:26 AM
Cjais, I really think you are over-estimating these techniques. Do you do any kind of martial arts? I can tell you, that landing martial arts techniques, especially kicks, is much harder then it looks, and moreso to do it effectively. A punch however, is far more simple to land, and if you are arguing that Lee had more punching power then Tyson, you are letting legend triumph of truth and really just fooling yourself. These techniques that you speak of, "Death Touches", if you will, have you ever seen Bruce Lee put any of these into practice? Have you seen him physically kill a man, or a bull? Because while you speculate, I believe that an ungloved Tyson has this, "Death Touch" you speak of, and so revere. He uses it every time he boxes, hundreds of times, for nearly 20 years of boxing. And you think I'm wrong, go watch a tape of a heavyweight bout with Tyson, especially in his prime, and imagine no gloves, and no mouthpieces. The mouthpiece alone absorbs most of the blow in boxing, and most concussions are caused by teeth striking together. Consider this, and fathom how deadly Tyson's power would be in an uncontolled enviroment. I am attempting to be realistic. Let me ask you this, if Tyson was rushing you, punches swinging, how prescise could you be? How much thought power could you allott to other actions beyond surviving? Because I'm not kidding, a solid blow from Tyson without and restraint or protective gear, would kill you. And that is a combination of his boxing skill, his physical strength and size. So you say Tyson would be dead before the fight started? I say, if Lee got close enough to Tyson to perform one of these alleged, theoretical, "Death Touches", Lee would find himself with a mouth full of Mikes fist.

Jah Warrior
11-11-2002, 08:37 AM
Right as far as the one inch punch is concerned:-

I have seen bruce do this in a documentary about his life, no joke this guy he hit flew at least 10 feet the other directionand this fella was bigger than bruce too.

go figure...

Also i know nuff folk that do kung fu karate Tang soo do and all that jazzz and ALL of them say that Bruce Lee was the ruffest martial artist in history. Its just a fact i'm afraid.

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 08:41 AM
Lexx, I am dying of exhaustion and really need some sleep so I'll keep this rebuttal short and sweet.
I didn't say Lee did not really fight, I actually said that I realized he was an avid street fighter and competitor, but as a martial artist myself I know the difference between martial arts training and what boxers must go through. Boxers only have to learn to duck and weave? I think that you had better do a little research on boxing before you continue this argument. Boxers not only go through rigorous physical training, but (unlike most martial artists) get most of their expierience in the ring. I don't doubt that Bruce Lee took some rowdy shots in his lifetime, but could it compare to a lifetime of trading blows with professional heavyweight boxers, whose only goal in life is to hit you so hard that you cannot continue to fight? I don't think so, I think once again, Bruce Lee's actual life, and the one that the numerous rumours and legends surround his life don't actually coincide. Now am I saying that Lee wasn't a tough cookie? Of course not, as a martial artist I have deep respect for all that he was trying to do and where he was attempting to take the art. But I still believe that between the Acting Career, and being a teacher, (which is not only quite time consuming, but I imagine quite unchallenging to him, as I doubt any of his students could put up a fight), that he couldn't match the fighting expierience that Tyson could of. Fighting is not only Tyson's passion, but his career and vital to his livelihood. Anyways, I'm going to continue this argument tommorow, I'm beginning to get really sleepy, and I have a feeling it's going to be Typo city in about 5 minutes, lol. Don't think I'm done with you guys yet, but good night for now.

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 08:44 AM
Jah, all I can say to that is, regardless of how far Bruce Lee sends anyone flying, or what your friends say, it really doesn't address any of the points that me and the others have brought up. So im confused when you say, "It's just a fact I'm afraid.", when your post contained no real fact, (unless you were referring to the fact that you saw a video where Bruce Lee sent some guy flying ten feet, to which I can only assume you actually saw the video, constituting a fact).

Jah Warrior
11-11-2002, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Woodrodius
These techniques that you speak of, "Death Touches", if you will, have you ever seen Bruce Lee put any of these into practice?
this is the point to which i refer dont you even read your own posts?

FatalStrike
11-11-2002, 10:24 AM
Bruce Lee was the best.

However there are such things as weight classes in all fighting events. Do you know why? Yes you see where I am going.

Even the ultimate fight chmpionship put in these divisions becasause the smaller much more highlyskilled fighter were getting destroyed. Weight matters.

Also Tyson wouldn't box Bruce Lee, he would street fight him. I am 100% sure tyson could take a hit from Lee, and I am equally sure that Lee would not be able to take a hit from the much bigger Tyson.

This isn't a movie or a video game, small guys DO NOT bounce back after getting hit by guys twice there size.

Also Bruce Lee never knocked someone 20 feet, thats a myth and sad that anyone believes it. If you think about it you will see that it is not possible...

Average Male - 140lbs
Distance traveled - about 7 meters
Impact force required - X

Now I won't bore you with formulas but lets just say the impact would kill the human.

Also please note that Lennox Lewis defeated Tyson at the downward slope of Tysons career. Had Lewis been around before Tyson's bogus rape charge Lewis would have lost his accent and spoken with a lisp after Tyson rocked him.

Darth Groovy
11-11-2002, 10:36 AM
You know, the very content of this poll makes me question what your real motive was in posting. Were you looking for an argument?

First of all Bruce Lee is dead as fried chicken and has no way to proove or defend himself. If he was alive he would own Tyson's fat head faster than you can say Evander Hollyfield.

Second of all Mike Tyson is an ape who deserves to spend the rest of his natural life behind bars and contemplate what a waste his life was. He has had so many second chances and I have watched piss it all away time, and time again. I don't feel sorry for the bumb anymore, and I question any state that would allow this meathead to box again even in the minor leagues. He is nothing but a commen thug who has tasted the world's riches and abused every power that has been given to him. To listen to him speak makes me cringe.

Maybe you can do your next poll on Mike Tyson Vs cartoon characters, he'll still loose.:rolleyes:

C'jais
11-11-2002, 10:40 AM
Woodrodius, you aren't very good at arguing this matter.

What are you going to do with a kick that can break your neck? Oh, Tyson might be strong and tough, but his damn bones won't last. I don't think Tyson is as strong as a bull.

Do you know how much pain it involves if your knee caps are broken? Just as lexx said, this would disable the poor man.

If Tyson indeed would be as foolish as simply switching to "meat grinder mode" as start charging at Lee with fists swinging, Bruce would utilize his body weight and leave him crumpled on the floor with a broken arm. I guess you can it a "death touch" if you end up with a broken spine - not much can fix that.

Have you ever seen how fast Bruce Lee can punch and kick? It's friggin' amazing, Tyson doesn't even come close. With that speed, he can do whatever he really wants because with his kicks alone he can outgun him. Speed = force, so even if Tyson is very strong, Lee's speed, training, and sheer muscle power can take him down. Lee is pure muscle really.

Fatal, even if the lighter, more skilled fighters were getting destroyed, we are still talking about Bruce Lee, he's not a legend for nothing - he started his own school.

If there ever came a fight involving these two dudes, it'd be very short, and very messy.

FatalStrike
11-11-2002, 10:55 AM
Enough about this strength crap!

Fact will bite you in the @ss again!

FACT: Bruce Lee trained in the late 60's. He would not have been NEARLY as powerful as today's athlete's with todays conditioning techniques.

FACT: Bruce Lee never fought guys as vicious as....

Royce Gracie
Bas Rutten
Ken Shamrock
Don Frye

These guys average 6 feet and 200+ pounds, all of them know much more then one martial art and are proven international fighters.

Against this class opponent, Bruce Lee would not stand a chance. At most he would wins one year before never being able to fight again.

This is what your prized fighter never faced in his life, so lets stop the Bruce Lee was soooo awesome crap. The fact is if it wasn't for Hollywood none of you would even know who he was.

Darth Simpson
11-11-2002, 11:27 AM
Me with an MP5 vs Bruce Lee.

I think it's pretty obvious that you wouldn't stand a chance.


=)

Jah Warrior
11-11-2002, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by FatalStrike
Enough about this strength crap!

Fact will bite you in the @ss again!

FACT: Bruce Lee trained in the late 60's. He would not have been NEARLY as powerful as today's athlete's with todays conditioning techniques.



man, fatal everytime i think you couldnt say something dumber you go and surpass yourself...

what the funk has decade or time got to do with anything...

kung Fu practices havent changed in thousands of years he would train in the same way now as then.

And if we are going for all round fighters we may as well mention Roy 'pretty boy' Shaw or Lenny MacLean who came over to the states battered the so-called hardest bare knuckle fighter in america (in 2 punches) and flew home the same day...

I tell ya if someone made a thread saying its brighter in the day than at night you would argue the opposite just for a reaction...:rolleyes:

Jah Warrior
11-11-2002, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by FatalStrike
Bruce Lee was the best.

However there are such things as weight classes in all fighting events. Do you know why? Yes you see where I am going.

Even the ultimate fight chmpionship put in these divisions becasause the smaller much more highlyskilled fighter were getting destroyed. Weight matters.

Also Tyson wouldn't box Bruce Lee, he would street fight him. I am 100% sure tyson could take a hit from Lee, and I am equally sure that Lee would not be able to take a hit from the much bigger Tyson.

This isn't a movie or a video game, small guys DO NOT bounce back after getting hit by guys twice there size.

Also Bruce Lee never knocked someone 20 feet, thats a myth and sad that anyone believes it. If you think about it you will see that it is not possible...

Average Male - 140lbs
Distance traveled - about 7 meters
Impact force required - X

Now I won't bore you with formulas but lets just say the impact would kill the human.

Also please note that Lennox Lewis defeated Tyson at the downward slope of Tysons career. Had Lewis been around before Tyson's bogus rape charge Lewis would have lost his accent and spoken with a lisp after Tyson rocked him.


OMG i didnt even see this post. Ive seen the video of the one inch punch man, do you even read the posts? Hence its true, he did it and its "fact"

and wtf has lennox lewis got to do with this?

as for bogus rape charge?!?!? well we all know the american justic system is a joke but really you are kidding? Tyson innocent? do me a favour!

FatalStrike
11-11-2002, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Jah Warrior


man, fatal everytime i think you couldnt say something dumber you go and surpass yourself...

what the funk has decade or time got to do with anything...

kung Fu practices havent changed in thousands of years he would train in the same way now as then

Its been 35 years and the training knowledge we know today produces much stronger athletes then before.

Think about what any major strength and spped record was back then and what it is today. More importantly however is that in this day and age atheletes are more on par with eachother.

Bruce would not have had a strength advantage like he did.

Also I wasn't refering to his Kung Fu Training I was reffering to his conditioning which he did in many ways.

Originally posted by Jah Warrior
And if we are going for all round fighters we may as well mention Roy 'pretty boy' Shaw or Lenny MacLean who came over to the states battered the so-called hardest bare knuckle fighter in america (in 2 punches) and flew home the same day...

I don't think america has the best fighters, nor did I claim we did.

Originally posted by Jah Warrior
I tell ya if someone made a thread saying its brighter in the day than at night you would argue the opposite just for a reaction...:rolleyes:

Yeah well I would rather argue for reaction then believe Lee broke the laws of physics cause he was "that good" :rolleyes:

FatalStrike
11-11-2002, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Jah Warrior



OMG i didnt even see this post. Ive seen the video of the one inch punch man, do you even read the posts? Hence its true, he did it and its "fact"

Well I have the video of Darth Vader gripping someone. However I am more inclined to believe the accepted laws of physics and not what you or I saw on a video.

Originally posted by Jah Warrior
and wtf has lennox lewis got to do with this?

as for bogus rape charge?!?!? well we all know the american justic system is a joke but really you are kidding? Tyson innocent? do me a favour!

Lewis is a reply to an earlier poster who commented on Lewis being better then Tyson.

I don't believe the rape charge because of lack of physical evidence and because of the "victims" behaivor minutes before and after the "crime." Mike is a monster, to that there is no doubt, but he is also open to wild accusations because a jury won't give a damn about evidence, since they hate him.

Mex
11-11-2002, 02:12 PM
Know what I think?

Bruce Lee vs Mike "The raper" Tyson

I can see it now

_____________________-
Bruce Lee = I hope you fight with honour
Mike = shut up and fight
*Mike punches wildly*
*Bruce Lee counters and sweeps Mike off his feet*
*Mike gets back up*
*Bruce Lee gets the numchuks (I cant spell it, lol)
*Mike runs in trying to hit Bruce*
*Bruce Lee hits him in the chin and the legs*
And in the end, Mike leaves with two broken legs and a broken nose :D

The winner BRUCE LEE!

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 03:44 PM
Alright I'm awake now.

First of all Groovy, yes, I did post this poll just to argue, or debate as I prefer to call it, because it is a hobby of mine. If you don't like to debate, you don't have to.
Fatal, thanks for backing me up. I think me and fatal are both on the same level in agreeing that the various "moves" of Bruce Lee, would prove pretty useless against such a powerhouse as Tyson. I don't want to say that Lee is all legend, but I believe a lot of myth surrounds him and has built him up considerably, whereas Mike Tyson's fighting prowess and destructive power cannot be denied by anyone. As a martial artist, I have witnessed first hand the myths surrounding martial arts fade away. A lot of kids have all these crazy ideas about getting your black belt and being able to beat up 6 or 7 guys at the same time and make it look cool. Fact of the matter is, in a normal street fight, against a normal opponent, the best thing to do is to punch them in the nose, so that their eyes water up, not go into crane stance or use your fanciest kick. Martial arts is a hard thing to fathom if you've never participated in it, or you are taught poorly. Now im sure Bruce Lee got into a few scraps in his lifetime. But he wasn't constantly fighting devestating opponents like Tyson, and if you think he was your fooling yourself. People have this idea in their heads that Bruce Lee went around constantly getting into huge martial arts battles with anyone he could find, and this is just false. He opened a school to "teach" Jeet Kun Do, whereas he was actually using the students as human practice dummies. This is a fact. He was attempting to perfect his technique, (I.E. The one inch punch) which is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't all translate over into a streetfight situation, whereas the easily accessible moves of Tyson almost seamlessly do. So you say he's got a one inch punch that will send Tyson flying, but as I have said before, you CANNOT get within arms reach of Tyson, let alone an inch, or your a gonner.
Cjais, saying that I am not good at arguin this subject is a pretty bold statement. Yet when I asked you whether you had witnessed Bruce Lee killing a person or a bull, you answered me with another question, "You think Tyson is stronger then a bull?" While I'm not sure what the ultimate goal of this question is, I can only address that, while Tyson probably does not have the towing capacity of the bull, I'd venture to say it would tougher to knock out Tyson then a bull. But you are being rather undescriptive about the whole alleged situation where somebody knocks out a bull, which leads me to believe this is something you just heard. Mike Tyson could knock out a silver back Gorilla if it were tied down. Thats not the point. The point is, could Lee damage Tyson so substantially that he could not fight, before Tyson could do likewise to him. In my opinion, there is no way he could.

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 03:48 PM
Also, Im not sure about which one inch punch video you guys are describing, but outside of his movies, I saw footage of him knocking a man down into a chair with it. It was more like 2-3 feet, and the man got right back up, and I believe shook his hand. The same technique, in my opinion, would just about barely cause Tyson to momentarily stumble, and then he'd be right back on you, and not to shake your hand.

On a side not, groovy, we aren't here to discuss Tyson's moral issues or his general conduct. (Though in my opinion, after seeing the lewis fight, he deserves a pat on the back for cleaning up his act and remaining very well behaved.) If you wish to discuss Tyson's moral shortcummings, you are more then welcome to start your own thread on the subject. But we are here to discuss Lee vs. Tyson, so lets keep it on track alright? Thanks.

C'jais
11-11-2002, 05:26 PM
Wood, I'm saying you are bad at arguing this, because you've got this neat idea in your head that Bruce can't beat Tyson, then you go to a forum to stir up some debate - but, you will not give way to any sort of arguments. You're always proclaiming we don't have any real evidence, when you in fact don't have either. You are hellbent on your idea though, and won't disagree with yourself. Check the evolution thread for comparisons.
Of course we don't have any real evidence because Lee is dead, and all we have are his myths, videos, training techniques and a certain thought that he was perhaps the most gifted martial artist in the last century.

Now, make some paragraphs in your posts so that it is easier to read as well.

I have witness of great martial artists killing bulls with one punch, yes - and I think it's safe to assume Lee would be able to do that too.

Fact: Bruce had more training than that urban gorilla Tyson.
Fact: Human bones can break.
Theory: Tyson's hands aren't accustomed to fighting without gloves on, his knockles aren't hardened etc.
Theory: Bruce would snap Tyson's spine with his far superior training.

However, this isn't a fair fight - You're comparing a dead fighter to a live one. Let's make it more equal by saying Lee versus Cassius Clay, for example.

FatalStrike
11-11-2002, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by cjais

I have witness of great martial artists killing bulls with one punch, yes - and I think it's safe to assume Lee would be able to do that too.

One- this is BullSh^t

Two- Leave the damn bull alone, you shouldn't kill something to prove you are good.

Originally posted by cjais
Fact: Bruce had more training than that urban gorilla Tyson.

So what? Have you ever seen a real fight? One without rules and all kinds of garbage? I give you this question.

How far do you think Tyson could throw 120lb. Bruce Lee?


Originally posted by cjais
Fact: Human bones can break.

Yes they can and both of these fighters can break them, the only difference is tyson hits MUCH harder.

If you think Bruce Lee hits harder then Tyson call me I have a nice bridge I want to sell you.


Originally posted by cjais
Theory: Tyson's hands aren't accustomed to fighting without gloves on, his knockles aren't hardened etc.

Wrong, Tyson was "found" not trained. He was a street fighter that had a rep for beating the life out of anyone who messed with him with his bare hands. This means ol' Mike doesn't only know how to take out boxers.


Originally posted by cjais
Theory: Bruce would snap Tyson's spine with his far superior training.

Superior training means a lot, but Tyson lands one hit, yes ONE HIT, and Bruce would be out cold. Also please note that superior training has NEVER been seen as enough to overcome a GREATLY larger opponent when both are very well trained.


Originally posted by cjais
However, this isn't a fair fight - You're comparing a dead fighter to a live one. Let's make it more equal by saying Lee versus Cassius Clay, for example.

Cassius Clay is M. Ali......and he is alive FFS!

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 06:14 PM
Intenet in my area is going down a lot, so If I'm not replying much for a bit, that's why, Fatal, I'd like to thank you again for bringing some more points into the subject, particularly that Tyson was found as a streetfighter and not trained right off the bat. Caijus, I've been trying to debate with you and I don't think it's fair to say that I've just been refusing all your arguments. I've been taking your points and addressing them with my own, and I haven't once said, "Well your wrong and I'm right." I derive no satisfaction from that, I like to debate about subjects that interest me. I've been going out of my way to consider all points given to me, and I don't think I've blown anybody off, but if you think I have done so, please give me an example. I don't want to be that kind of guy who disagrees with someone and just tells them to go $@#$ themselves, that is both unintelligent and pretty non-productive. (Plus it's not pithy, and nothing makes people flustered like pithiness :)) So, again, if you feel I haven't been taking your points seriously and just blowing you off, I apologize, as this was not my intention, and please bring to my attention the points that you think I have not given adequate response to. Thank you.

C'jais
11-11-2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by FatalStrike
Cassius Clay is M. Ali......and he is alive FFS!

Ooooops! :lol: Sowwwwy!

Really, I thought he was dead - but let's assume Lee versus M. Ali in his heyday then....

Or any other dead fighter versus Lee or whoever else, that's the point anyway.

Edit - no no, Wood - you haven't blown me off or anyone else, and you've always given good reason... ...it's just I'm starting to believe you won't change your mind no matter what we say. And this is a weird debate after all, Lee is dead - we can talk theories till forever comes, but we'll never find out for sure who the greatest is. Better make this a brutal theory versus theory matchup by having it involve to dead guys. If one of the combatants are alive, he'll always be lauded as the greatest because the dead dude's prowess always can be dismissed as mere myth - and in this case, we have never seen real fights of Lee at all (I believe), only movies where his goal wasn't to kill, but to look spectacular.

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 08:32 PM
Cjais, I see your point about the living vs the dead thing, though i thing no matter what it's all going down to opinion. I used Tyson vs Lee because they are the epitomy of two facets of combat, Speed (Lee), and Strength (Tyson), and nobody can disagree that both have skill. The goal of this forum debate is not to figure out who is right or wrong, it's just to give your opinion of why you think your right. I'd like to keep going with the Tyson vs Lee debate, but If anyone would like to drop in any other fighters, I don't see why we cannot debate them all, I'm not going to be the forum Stalin telling you guys what to post and what not to post lol.

-s/<itzo-
11-11-2002, 08:43 PM
are you guys serious.

bruce lee with out a doubt.

don't get me wrong iron mike is probably my fav boxer of all time. but common now its two different style of fighting. boxing only uses fist and Jeet Kun Do consist of every part of your body from head to toe.

yeah mike is stronger but with bruce lee's speed and versitile moves it will be over within a minute. and also lee wins because he got the smarts (fighting wise). i guarantee mike wouldn't even connect with one single punch.

Unl0rd
11-11-2002, 08:58 PM
With all due respect to Bruce Lee, "Iron" Mike Tyson would destroy him. Sure, Bruce Lee was an excellent fighter and was very famous, but his fighting skills were highly exaggerated by the movies. He was not even close to one of the best fighters in the world. Mike Tyson would only need to connect one punch to his face and it would be over.

ZBomber
11-11-2002, 09:00 PM
I say Bruce Lee, cause he didn't bite anyone's ear off... (unless he did.... :D )

ZBomber
11-11-2002, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Unl0rd
With all due respect to Bruce Lee, "Iron" Mike Tyson would destroy him. Sure, Bruce Lee was an excellent fighter and was very famous, but his fighting skills were highly exaggerated by the movies. He was not even close to one of the best fighters in the world. Mike Tyson would only need to connect one punch to his face and it would be over.

welcome to the swamp unl0rd

*pokes the noob* :jab:

have fun!

:)

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 09:03 PM
Skitzo, posts like that aren't really furthering the argument. I have addressed the speed issue on multible occasions, so telling me, "it would over in a minute" won't cut it. Why would it be? What tactics would Lee use? Again, I stress that under no circumstances would Lee be able to damage Tyson, who has been brutaly beaten his entire life due to his career, to the point where he would not be able to fight, let alone before Tyson popped him one. And again, this is NOT a boxing match. We are not arguing boxing vs. Jeet Kun Do. There are boxers that can pummel Jeet Kun Do'ers, and Jeet Kun Do'ers that can Jap wap the crap out of many competent boxers. We are talking about Lee, and Tyson, for reasons that I have already mentioned. Tyson's background a streetfighter must be taken into consideration as well. Bruce Lee was a great martial artist, but I think the myth that surrounds him is the origin of this strength that everyone is so convinced would allow him to prevail.

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 09:06 PM
Zbomber, throw me a bone, give me something I can work with. If anything I think Mike Tyson's obvious ferocity and ability to use his teeth as a weapon would only further my argument.

ET Warrior
11-11-2002, 09:45 PM
Bruce Lee, hands down. I wont go citing facts or whatnot, because nobody seems interested in changing their minds. Bruce lee would break tyson in half and laugh at him while dancing on his broken-ness. :D

gorganfloss
11-11-2002, 09:50 PM
Bruce Lee would kick Tysons ass.

Sorry, but I dont have an explanation.:rolleyes:

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 09:54 PM
lol, few do my friend, few do.

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 10:02 PM
I guess this whole thing for me, as a martial artist was an experiment of Fantasy vs. Reality. While myths and legends about Bruce Lee's greatness are inspiring, I truly believe that most of it was little more then exaggerated rumours, where as Tyson, a master of the martial art of boxing, (And this is what gets everyone, martial arts kids for some reason despise boxing and all that it stands for, while I believe that like many other martial arts, boxing is a deep, well thought out form of combat that is difficult to master. Those kids out there that say Tyson has no finesse need to put on some gloves and box a bit, and see how hard it is, I've boxed, and in my opinion it is far more difficult then olympic style Tae Kwon Do sparring) has proven himself an extremely competent fighter, able to improvise and to dish out devestating amounts of damage. Does anyone disagree that an ungloved Tyson, fighting an opponent without a mouthpiece, (Which absorbs most of the blow in boxing or any other sparring sport) would be utterly lethal? What would happen if Tyson went into the UFC? I can't even imagine it. People would die, and I'm not exaggerating in the least. A punch with that much power, is, in the most real of ways, would mean death. Does anyone disagree with at least that portion of my argument?

JediNyt
11-11-2002, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Woodrodius
Your response has no backup. I want good arguments here, not, "Bruce Lee would unleash 1,000 burning dragons and blow Tyson's head off." Bruce Lee could kill anyone in one hit, where did you obtain this information. Are you guessing?

No. I was in the martial arts and learned a few death moves. Did you know that a back punch if done right can have more stopping power than a .45 bullet? In special seminars I trained under a master who knew Lee. He told us about how knowledgeable, intelligent and intuitive Lee was. Lee in a demontration did a famous 1 inch punch on 3 phone books and tore right through them. Now if that sounds stupid think about it. 3 phone books. Punching them in half. 1 inch punch. Ya that it amazing. If I was able to break 3 bricks with my hand then just try to imagine what Lee could do. My agruments have back up. Its called common sence. Its common knowledge Lee was one of the best. Just watch his movies. He didnt use fake movie tricks. Like Jackie Chan it was all him.

Tyson is a great boxer but thats about it. I dont know what your personal feeling toward Tyson are but I think hes just a big dumb thug with no respect for anyone. Lee had respect. He was cool headed, smart, intuitive, and deadly. I rest my case.

-s/<itzo-
11-11-2002, 10:32 PM
To Woodrodius comment:

just think about it. if a fighter only limits himself with mostly punches wouldn't you think a master of Jeet Kun Do will adapt and find a weakness easily.

I mean boxers are not use to getting kicks. How are they going to counter something that they are not use to especially to someone like Bruce Lee whos very versatile???

If you're stuck in only one or two ways of thinking or acting (or reacting) you will be predictable. and a watchful adversary will use that against you.

yeah tyson is stronger but do you really think hes that much stronger than bruce hitting wise. with enough force and accuracy bruce lee punches can be as devastating as mike tyson's. plus he can kick. and i think bruce lee's kick is much much more lethal than tyson's punch.

and also stamina wise tyson will loose. plus its a fact, bigger people get tired much easier. and everybody knows tyson doesn't do good in the late rounds. cuz i think he uses all of his energy in the beginning of the fight. and that will not be a good stragedy against bruce lee. Bruce can use that to his advantage. with his speed he can probably dodge most of tyson's hits. he will tire him down to a point where he can just predict every movement. Tyson will be vulnerable and in one good oppurtunity bruce lee will find a chance, an opening and it's over.

"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
-- Bruce Lee

nuff said

Guardian Omega
11-11-2002, 10:43 PM
You say he's been in the streets when young, I'll give you that. But right now, I'd say most of his experiences compared to his street ones are dominantly boxing. He'd probably forgotten quite a bit of his street fighting techs when confined to the rules of boxing. Human minds seem to forget what is not needed, and focus what is needed, in Mike's case, boxing. It would be wise to develop tactics specifically for boxing, not street fights, since he's probably never gonna be picked on ever since he got famous and there's rules, wherever street fighting isn't.

I'm pretty sure Bruce could outlast mike, as agility demands more stamina.

TheWhiteRaider
11-11-2002, 11:17 PM
Gie-Koon-Do (That is not how it is spelled that is how it is pronuced I have only heard it.) is what Lee's style is. And there is more to a street fight than Punching. I voted for Lee. He has speed and style.

Also to put to rest the street fight argument. My teacher (Who has 15 black belts, knife training, gun training, and a few Navy seal tricks,) Said that the only problem with Karate is that most classes have you only punch air you never try anything on hard surfaces. Which hitting hard surfaces(AKA People) can change the recoiling of you fist or leg. And some style teach you dances, but I don't think you are going to all this when someone attacks you. When they have these "all style" type exibition games. You know who wins? Not boxers, not Karate guys, and not Kung Fu. It is the guys who grapple and don't do all the dances. Those who don't only punch. So there is more to fighting than being strong or fast.

Woodrodius
11-11-2002, 11:20 PM
The last 3 posts were excellent, and brought up some of the best counter points to my argument yet. We are getting closer to having the debate turn into strictly opinion but I will say this.
A.Tyson being mentally gearded towards boxing-Of course he would be, but he obviously isn't completely geared towards boxing, since he bit off Holyfields ear in a boxing match! But I still think that his boxing background gives Tyson all the tools he needs for victory.
B.Tyson's stamina-I'll give that one to you, Tyson would definetely tucker out before Lee would, but to be frank, I'm not sure Lee would last long enough to see him tire. To assume tyson would get tired, you have to assume that he would be swinging alot! If he is swinging a lot, he's going to either hit Lee, ending the fight, or if he continues to miss, pull back and let lee bring the fight to him, which I think would be a devastating turn of events for Bruce. Everyone assumes that Mike would always be on the offensive, but i dont believe this is all true. Mike isn't dumb, if he was a dumb fighter none of us would know who he is. We know who he is because he is a smart boxer, and a successful one. I think he's know when to change gears on the fight and let Bruce bring the pain. i'd write more but im going toa movie, I'll keep responding when i get back, thanks.

Eldritch
11-11-2002, 11:28 PM
If it weren't for the fact that this is a completely impossible matchup, I'd almost be upset.

When Bruce was still alive, Tyson was really young (or hadn't yet been born, i'm not sure how old he is). So no matchup there. When Tyson was at his peak, Bruce was long dead, so no matchup there either.

If you took both men at the peak of their careers, I'd have to say Bruce would come out on top. Throw out all the stuff about strength, power, reach, technique, etc. The reason Bruce would win is simple : Bruce trained in the martial arts as a way of life - he took it very seriously. He practiced with full focus and concentration, as if his life depended on it. It was his whole life, from the time he started studying Wing Chun kung fu under the great Sifu Yip Man when he was a young boy.
Tyson, on the other hand, started his training much later in life, and it wasn't his main focus in life (although he did train very hard). He also trained for a sport - the techniques he practiced were useful only in the ring... as far as I know, he has nowhere near the amount of experience fighting outside the ring as Bruce did.

Woodrodius, you weren't looking for opinions when you started this thread. You were looking for an argument. You've been trying to change people's opinions, and no amount of arguing can do that. You have valid points, as does everyone who's posted here. The fact is we'll never know who'd win a fight between Bruce and Tyson, so why do you argue as if you know there's a fight between them coming soon on Pay-Per-View and you've just GOTTA be right? You're not going to convince anyone otherwise so just let it go.

TheWhiteRaider
11-11-2002, 11:54 PM
Though I agree that we can't prove this. We can debate it. So let us have our fun JEDI_Anakin_S.

Eldritch
11-12-2002, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider
Though I agree that we can't prove this. We can debate it. So let us have our fun JEDI_Anakin_S.

I'm all for having fun, but some people are taking it a little too seriously, so I was just trying to remind them of that.

TheWhiteRaider
11-12-2002, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by JEDI_Anakin_S


I'm all for having fun, but some people are taking it a little too seriously, so I was just trying to remind them of that.

Ok. One thing I hate about typeing is you can't tell the type of tone like talking. Anyways back to topic.

Darth Homer
11-12-2002, 01:47 AM
I voted for Bruce because I have seen videos of him fighting...he was so fast the camera could not keep up with him. Also, I agree with all the others who stated opinions about kicking. Lee's was especially damaging, many people have equated Lee's side kick w/ getting hit by a train. The "Death Punch", which I've always heard as the "One inch punch" is real. Bruce was capable of focusing all of his body weight into a single point and then would hit you in the chest with it. The only difference is, this was something he had to prepare and made it impossible to do in combat.

Jeet Kune Do, translated means "The Way of the Intercepting Fist." It's design was to stop someone from attacking by intercepting that attack with one of your own...Tyson would be worn down by Bruce's agility, speed and interceptions; then finished off with a side kick for good measure. If it was limited to punches, Tyson would win easily.

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 02:01 AM
Jedi Anakin, I'm not trying to tell anyone that they are wrong, simply why I think I am right. If I didn't care about the method of doing so, I would of just said, "**** All Y'all, Tyson 4ever, Boyeeeeeeee!" As a martial artist this topic interests me, because while I am confident that my martial arts training, (1st Dan black belt in Tae Kwon Do) coupled with my ring expierience as a competitor, would do much to aid me in a combat situation. But I also concede to the fact that no matter how hard I train, someone can beat me. And it isn't always that they trained harder then me, or that they were stronger then me, it's they they were designed to win. That's what makes fighters like Lee and Tyson so interesting, not so much that they were master's of their arts, but that they are so designed to win at what they do.
http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/bruce.html
this website does much to give real data and fact, and compare it to the myth of Bruce Lee. Please read and reply.

Eldritch
11-12-2002, 02:15 AM
Not reading, not replying, not arguing any more. It'd be pointless (for me at least) from here on out.

And you say 1st Dan Black Belt like it's supposed to impress someone. It's the lowest ranked black belt in Tae Kwon Do.

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 02:20 AM
Perhaps if I were interested impressing you or anyone else on these forums Jedi, I'd of said I was a 5th Dan. :) But I am a first Dan black belt. It's all I needed to fight in the black belt division. A black belt is a black belt in olympic style sparring, it doesn't matter what degree you are, you are fighting eachother, and thats when you witness the myth and mystery of martial arts fade away with your own eyes. It's not about charging up to the top of a mountain to meditate, or running across burning coal to make yourself more "raw". It's about how good you are, how hard you work at it, and ultimately, how good you can be. I've fought all types of degrees of black belts, some higher some lower, some better some worse. Yellow stripes on your belt don't matter, all that matters, is you.

Eldritch
11-12-2002, 02:24 AM
Aww, that's so inspiring. :rolleyes:

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 02:29 AM
Jedi, I'm not turning this into a flame war, if you dont like the subject, bounce. If you want to be courteous and debate about it, debate your heart out. Otherwise stop being rude or I'll give Tyson the link to this forum and your address, and I don't think we need a poll to figure out who'd win that one.



P.S. I dont really know Jedi's address or have any way of getting in contact with Mike. (Nor would I really want either, lol)

Eldritch
11-12-2002, 02:33 AM
Ooooh, not Tyson! Anyone but Tyson! What's he going to do, bite my ear? :rolleyes:

And since we're on the Tyson kick, why'd you pick Tyson anyway? He's hardly who I would pick to represent the cream of the boxing crop...

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 02:36 AM
Been asked, Been addressed, but I can resum it up for you late bloomers.:rolleyes:
Tyson, for his Ferocity, destructive punching power, streetfighter background, long and successful career, size, strength, and total fight expierience. My favorite boxer is Holyfield, but he just doesn't have that animal look in his eyes. And don't talk trash about Tyson, you and 10 of your you clones couldn't come close to taking him down so please, show a little respect.

-s/<itzo-
11-12-2002, 02:40 AM
common guys stick to the thread.

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 02:42 AM
Word that Skitzo, I like the way you think. :D


I didn't start the fire, it was always burning since the worlds been turning.....

TheWhiteRaider
11-12-2002, 02:43 AM
Superior training means a lot, but Tyson lands one hit, yes ONE HIT, and Bruce would be out cold. Also please note that superior training has NEVER been seen as enough to overcome a GREATLY larger opponent when both are very well trained.

Not completely true. If they both have the equal training or close to equal. Then strength and speed are big factors, but also they both have different styles. Lee would block with his elbows. Which the harder Tyson hits the more likely he is to break his fist. Blocking with your elbows is a good way to stop a punch( And it will hurt even with gloves on). And also different style have what are ranges. Boxing range is a little ways away from the person so you can trade blows. Jeet Kun Do range is further than boxing range. And then there is also Traping range which is where you almost lock horns(Or if the other guys is in pain where you move in and finish him.) So Lee would try to stay back from Tyson to stay out of Tyson's range. So Tyson would have a hard time getting in a range where he can punch Lee and when he does Lee would attack and counter-attack.

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 02:53 AM
Sorry to BREAK it to you Whiterider, (Oh yes, Pun definetely intended) but a 200 ppsi blow from Tyson would not be something you wan't to be blocking. In boxing they can do it because they are wearing huge, padded gloves. Blocking a shot from Tyson, especially in the elbow where so many of your nerves are contained, would cause your entire arm to go numb, if not break outright. So he could do that twice, one for each arm, and maybe Tyson, granted, has some bloody knuckles at this point. But at this point, being that all tha lee's got block the next shot with is kisser, well, you get the picture.

TheWhiteRaider
11-12-2002, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by Woodrodius
Sorry to BREAK it to you Whiterider, (Oh yes, Pun definetely intended) but a 200 ppsi blow from Tyson would not be something you wan't to be blocking. In boxing they can do it because they are wearing huge, padded gloves. Blocking a shot from Tyson, especially in the elbow where so many of your nerves are contained, would cause your entire arm to go numb, if not break outright. So he could do that twice, one for each arm, and maybe Tyson, granted, has some bloody knuckles at this point. But at this point, being that all tha lee's got block the next shot with is kisser, well, you get the picture.

Sorry to break it to you, but all of that is not true. Yes it would if you had your arm at a 180 degree angle. Put your arm at a 90 degree angle and you will see what I mean. Your nerves are not exposed only the bone. And I use this to block and trust me it hurts to punch the end of the elbow even with gloves on(And I was not punching at full power either). A punching bag isn't even as hard. You would need a lot more ppsi punch to damage the elbow when the arm is at 90 degrees. Even if Tyson got Lee's arm numb Tyson would not be able to punch because his fist's bones would be broken. Hitting the elbow is almost like hitting a wall.

Also the nerves are on the top if I recall correctly.

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 03:18 AM
I understand your points, but I still believe you are over analyzing. 90 degree angle, 180 degree angle, none of that is going to matter when Tyson hits you. I'm not sure if your fathoming how destructive a blow this would be. And I just dont think that 143 pound Lee could block one, indeed, I don't even think he would try and block one, as Lee was a competent fighter and he would of known when he was in over his head power wise. I'm pretty sure Lee would of attempting dodging more-so then blocking, as is concurrent with the Jeet Kun Do style. The best block is not to be there. But again, for reason's I've stressed, I don't believe his dodging abilities would be enough either.

TheWhiteRaider
11-12-2002, 03:45 AM
The elbow block itself is called a "Destruction" Navy Seals are trained how to use it. It is Illegal in friendly fights. It is used incase of a stronger attacker. Heck I recall that in a match a boxer who punched at 178 ppsi broke his hand by nailing the elbow while the person who blocked only felt the impact, but no pain. It has been a time tested method. Even Tyson's punches can't beat the method, but if Tyson gets you in the face or chest that is a different story.

And the 90 and 180 degree angles do matter. You want your elbows facing the attacker at all times unless you are punching with that arm. Try shooting a watermellon at 60 mph to a wall. Which will break the wall or the mellon? The block is just like that doesn't matter how much power and speed the result is the same.

Though I think you are right when you say Lee will dodge.

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 03:56 AM
Also, boxers mix up punches, and the punching style of boxers is actually one of the hardest to block. The combination of quick straight jabs, and arching crosses make blocking with something as precise are a 90 degree angle, extremely diffucult. Tyson's no dummy either. When boxers are constantly keeping their faces in their gloves they drop downstairs, when the glove drop, they go upstairs. Tyson can improvise extremely well. I stand by my statement that pugilism is an art form, and isn't something you can just muscle your way through. But now im getting a bit away from myself since I've said that were not arguing styles, but fighters. Anyways, thats my 2 cents.

TheWhiteRaider
11-12-2002, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by Woodrodius
Also, boxers mix up punches, and the punching style of boxers is actually one of the hardest to block. The combination of quick straight jabs, and arching crosses make blocking with something as precise are a 90 degree angle, extremely diffucult. Tyson's no dummy either. When boxers are constantly keeping their faces in their gloves they drop downstairs, when the glove drop, they go upstairs. Tyson can improvise extremely well. I stand by my statement that pugilism is an art form, and isn't something you can just muscle your way through. But now im getting a bit away from myself since I've said that were not arguing styles, but fighters. Anyways, thats my 2 cents.

If you broke your fist would you be able to punch quickly? I would think unless he is superman he would pull his fist back. He only needs to hit it once to be in pain. And I am sure even Tyson would have trouble with a broken fist.

C'jais
11-12-2002, 10:51 AM
Lee would win.

If Tyson came rushing against Lee, he'd be stopped in his tracks. Why?

Because Bruce Lee trained with 200 lbs sand bags (amongst other things) that he sent flying into huge curves like a pendulum. And, he didn't just do this when the sand bag was stationary, he did it when it came swinging back at him with full force - he sent it swinging upwards again, not just stopped it. Even if Tyson could take such a punch, he'd be pacified for at least a half to one second - leaving Lee to do to some nasty follow up techniques against his head, for example.

If Tyson took it more slowly, searching for tactical advantages like an opening, he'd still have to do some kind of punch eventually - An arm is shorter than a leg, so Bruce would be in a position/distance to hit Tyson with a kick before Tyson's punch struck home. We aren't talking snazzy flying kicks against the head here either, we're talking about doing an effective kick against his thigh or knee, and then he'd be able to follow up again. Tyson, of course, doesn't know any proper kicks - if he tried some kind "street fighter kick", he'd be partly dodged by Lee who would perfrom a block and a counterattack at the same time. This is a fact that he trained specifically on this technique.

With regards to the arm being shorter than the leg, try this yourself: Put your leg on a table (stretched) and stretch your arm along the leg and see for yourself. None of both Tyson or Lee are especially big, Tyson may be very heavy but he's also very squat. Strengh isn't everything - Tyson may hit very hard, but since he strikes slower than Lee, Lee would be quite able to do a counterattack and some follow up techniques.

And it's not just Tyson who's been into street fights, Lee has as a fact been into street fights too, though not as many.

If you look at Tyson's leg positions/movements (and boxer's in general), you'd see that they aren't used to protecting their thighs. If you aren't used to that, you wouldn't know how to block or absorb a kick against the thighs - you as a tae kwon do-fighter would know how much it hurts when a kick against the thighs hits home without being blocked or absorbed properly.

Tyson's knuckles aren't hardened like Lee's were - no matter how many street fights Tyson have been in, he wouldn't have nearly the same hardness as Lee, who trained intensively to harden his knuckles, finger tips, edge of hand and lower arm. This is a fact.

Sosai (Sensei) Mas. Oyama founder of kyokushinkai karate, with the nickname "God-hand", would stand a chance against Lee. It's a fact that he killed 47 bulls in his lifetime, three of them with his first hit. The others, he chopped off their horns with his bare hands at first. Practically his entire life he spend hardening his knuckles - they eventually became so deformed that you couldn't distinguish each knuckle from each other (index and "****-finger") and forming an effective hammer.

These are all facts, my friend who does karate (kyokushin) knows this from books, internet and his black belt superiors (Shihan (Sensei) Jan Bülow and Sensei Jesper Trier) have actually met Sosai, and have been graduaded by him. Links: www.roskildekarateklub.dk -> instruktører -> their names.

-s/<itzo-
11-12-2002, 12:22 PM
hey Woodrodius it seems like you keep saying the same thing over and over.


this is a thread base on our opinions, this is not a debate.


please get over it.


one more thing, bruce lee's kick is much much more lethal than any of tyson's punches. i guarantee it.

Boba Fife
11-12-2002, 01:14 PM
Some compelling arguements on both sides of the coin.

I watched Tyson fight when he was just a kid right up through his teen years and early 20's when he was at the top of his game. You wanna talk about fast? Most of his opponents don't remember their knockout, only the temple-splitting headache the next morning!

He had an uppercut and left hook that was so fast and so powerful that men bigger, stronger and heavier than him with a longer reach were kissing the canvas within the first minute of the first round!! Yes. Bruce was lightning fast and incredibly adept, but the fact of the matter is that his only chance for success would be to deliver the same "first round knockout punch" to Tyson. Tyson was tough as a slab of concrete sustaining punches to the face and body that would break the ribs and shatter the cheekbones of a "normal" person. But he never gave his opponent the opportunity to finish him off.

His style was not unlike Lee's: an intercepting fist. He saw that split-second "blink of an eye" opening in the opponent's defenses and that's when he/they would fire off a salvo of punches to down their foe. However, I feel that strength, power and endurance would favor Tyson. You have to understand, professional fighters are not merely relegated to throwing punches, but train for thousands of hours on how to dodge and immediately counter a punch which is not unlike a martial artist such as Lee. Their conditioning is almost inhuman. They are so strong and powerful that they literally should be registered as "lethal weapons".

Let's not assume that Lee's speed alone would win the fight. He would have to get close enough to deliver a blow and that's when Tyson would throw a combo of hooks and uppercuts and then it would be "lights out" for good ol' Bruce.

Don't get me wrong, I think Bruce Lee was one of the most incredible fighters of all time, but I really think we're comparing apples to oranges here. I also think that given a second chance to brawl on the street that Lee would beat Tyson as he was someone who learned and absorbed everything that made him a more effective fighter. He adopted the styles of grapplers, Judo champions, Muhammed Ali, wrestlers, etc. to hone his style of Jeet Kune Do: Way of the Intercepting Fist

Boba Fife
11-12-2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider


If you broke your fist would you be able to punch quickly? I would think unless he is superman he would pull his fist back. He only needs to hit it once to be in pain. And I am sure even Tyson would have trouble with a broken fist.

You're assuming that Lee would block each and every one of Tyson' punches. How is it that 35 professional heavyweight fighters in succession could not do this? He was 35-0 when beaten by Douglas never having been so much as knocked down in all that time. I think we may be giving too much credit to the martial arts as the ultimate form of fighting.

Lee wasn't invincible and everyone has their "off" days. See if you can't track down some past fights of Tyson's (Trevor Berbick, Frank Bruno, Michael Spinks) and you'll see what I mean about intense power coupled with blazing fast speed. There's one fight where Tyson hit his opponent so hard in the face that the other fighter actually moved sideways like he was sliding on ice!! He never saw it coming either.

Darth Homer
11-12-2002, 02:59 PM
One point that has also been missed...or maybe not, I haven't read the last couple posts, but oh well...ANYWAY...when Bruce Lee designed Jeet Kune Do, he incorporated boxing into it, Jeet Kune Do was designed as an adaptive style (or as Bruce, put it, "styleless fighting")...since Bruce already knew about boxing he would also know the best way to adapt and defeat it. Also, Jeet Kune Do does not have blocking, or at least Bruce's original version did not...he wouldn't be blocking anything, he'd anticipate the punch and stop it before it started or dodge it to begin with.

Boba Fife
11-12-2002, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Darth Homer
I haven't read the last couple posts.....

Maybe you should as I in part discuss how he devised the Jeet Kune Do style. ;)

Are my posts too long? Is this why no one ever reads them? :confused: Or am I just being ignored completely? ;)

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 04:29 PM
Darth Homer, once again, we arent arguing Jeet Kun Do vs. Boxing or any style against any style. I'm simply arguing that Lee would be unable to stop Tyson from beating him senseless. Watch a Tyson fight, watch how graceful he is, avoiding, dodging, weaving, then he explodes. He's extremely fast, and precise, and has the power to back up those aspects. All he'd need to do is get in close, and Lee would be simply overpowered. Nothing more complex then that. No style, no matter how complex, fancy or flashy, would give Lee the tools to stop Tysons onslaught, it simply couldn't be done.

C'jais
11-12-2002, 04:32 PM
Adress this:

Originally posted by cjais

If Tyson took it more slowly, searching for tactical advantages like an opening, he'd still have to do some kind of punch eventually - An arm is shorter than a leg, so Bruce would be in a position/distance to hit Tyson with a kick before Tyson's punch struck home. We aren't talking snazzy flying kicks against the head here either, we're talking about doing an effective kick against his thigh or knee, and then he'd be able to follow up again. Tyson, of course, doesn't know any proper kicks - if he tried some kind "street fighter kick", he'd be partly dodged by Lee who would perfrom a block and a counterattack at the same time. This is a fact that he trained specifically on this technique.


And this:

If you look at Tyson's leg positions/movements (and boxer's in general), you'd see that they aren't used to protecting their thighs. If you aren't used to that, you wouldn't know how to block or absorb a kick against the thighs - you as a tae kwon do-fighter would know how much it hurts when a kick against the thighs hits home without being blocked or absorbed properly.

Hate to cut it out for you, but since you won't reply to it, I will.

Bruce doesn't need to "get in close with a blow" - he will use his kicks and Tyson can't do a damn thing about it.

Lee would most likely do a slightly curved frontal kick against his thigh, leaving the poor man in immense pain. Boxer's legs are practically screaming "HIT ME! OH GOD PLEASE HIT ME!"....

Tyson's blows might be very fast, but when we're talking about an open fight, with no holds barred unlike in boxing where it's illegal to hit below the belt, not to mention kicks, grapples and bone breaking "death attacks" that do exist - Tyson won't last 20 seconds.

This is a debate about two different persons, not two different fighting styles - please keep that out of here.

And don't give me the "35-0" score thing - Denmark has a boxer with a score on 49-0 versus international champions - but you don't see me trying to compare him to Lee.

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 04:54 PM
This is where it mainly breaks down to opinion. In my opinion, even if Lee manages to get a kick in on Tyson on his way in, im not so sure it would begin to even slow him down, let alone really hurt him. Your putting to much faith in this alleged power of Lee. Lee was actually known more for his phenominal upper body strength (Phenominal for his size, not in general) and not particularily devastating kicks. Could he dish it out with his legs? Probably. I have a hard time taking your argument seriously for long, because in between giving me good points, you also drop stuff like, Tyson wouldn't last 20 seconds. Thats where I start to think that you may be a a little mixed up in the "Bruce Lee legend" Personally, although I acknowledge that Lee was a great martial artist, I don't think he was the fighter that everyone says he was. I think much of these rumours comes from his mysterious lifestyle, fantastical feats, (Such as the 1 inch punch which IMO is mainly aesthetic) and his acting career. Break it down to pure physics, and it should be obvious to anyone that there isn't any way Lee could stop Tyson from coming in close and finishing him off. And I think even Lee would aknowledge this. It's a romantic thought to think that skill and discipline could allow the small guy to beat the huge guy, and sometimes it's true. But in this case, I do not believe it to be the case. Watch a Tyson fight, watch him back his opponents into the corner and begin to pummel them, and then try and visually imagine defense against this. It wouln't be possible. It's fantasy vs. reality. I dont have any misconceptions about my martial arts skill. No matter how hard I train, I can't dodge a bullet, I cant kick a train so hard that it wouldn't run me over, and If I got hit by Tyson without a glove, just like anyone, including Lee, I'd be dead. End of story.

C'jais
11-12-2002, 05:15 PM
Not end of story.

If you honestly think as a Tae Kwon Do fighter that Tyson could take a well placed hit on his thigh and not even flinch for a second, then maybe you're the one being to mixed up in the Mike Tyson legend.

Lee's movies were for pure show, they didn't depict the way he'd fight in reality in any way what so ever. You obviously judge Lee based on his fancy movies and compare him to some sort of ballet dancer with nothing to back it up - Lee has on numerous occasions utilized his art of self defense against dudes much larger than himself, and the result was always very messy, and very short.

Tyson has never fought against a guy using kicks to the effect of Bruce. Again, bruce can hit a 200 lbs sandbag coming down on him and send it swinging right back. Tyson wouldn't for the love of God know how to defend against kicks, he wouldn't know when to tighten his muscles etc.

Notice my remark about the bull fighter - it's very much possible to kill a 400 lbs bull with one hit.

Yes, it's very romantic to imagine this Hulk monster vindicating the noble art of boxing, but it's just not going to happen against a person as trained and skilled as Bruce.

Boba Fife
11-12-2002, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by cjais
the Mike Tyson legend.

His fight record is no legend. It speaks for itself as do the films of the fights.

Lee's movies were for pure show, they didn't depict the way he'd fight in reality in any way what so ever.

Absolutely and utterly false. He was incredibly meticulous when it came to choreographing his fight sequences adhering religiously to his style and to the way he would've reacted had the scenario been actual.

You obviously judge Lee based on his fancy movies and compare him to some sort of ballet dancer with nothing to back it up

No one is saying that. This is how you interpret it albeit an incorrect summary.

Lee has on numerous occasions utilized his art of self defense against dudes much larger than himself, and the result was always very messy, and very short.

The exact same thing could and can be said when refering to Mike Tyson who only stands at 5'10" tall whereas many of his opponents were 6'4" or taller with a much longer reach

Again, bruce can hit a 200 lbs sandbag coming down on him and send it swinging right back. Tyson wouldn't for the love of God know how to defend against kicks, he wouldn't know when to tighten his muscles etc.

But, Lee said himself, "Boards don't hit back...." Neither do sandbags. Yes. A well-placed kick would be potentially devastating, but to say that boxers legs are basically two pillars from which to support the torso has no validity. They train their legs just as intensely as any other part of their body by running, jumping rope, doing leg presses, etc. as they know that their legs are the base of their attack: they use them to launch their blows just as a martial artist does. They may not use them to kick, but who's to say that Tyson might throw one of those pillars towards an opponent? Would you wanna be kicked by him??? His thighs are like tree trunks comprised of solid muscle.

Notice my remark about the bull fighter - it's very much possible to kill a 400 lbs bull with one hit.

A good analogy, but not applicable here as Tyson wasn't a "raging bull" (no pun intended). His moves were as calculated as Lee's were. I think you may be unfairly painting heavyweight fighters as monodirectional lummoxes which is completely untrue.

Yes, it's very romantic to imagine this Hulk monster vindicating the noble art of boxing, but it's just not going to happen against a person as trained and skilled as Bruce.

Well, it's apparent that your mind is made up and we're just going to have to agree to disagree. The training of a world champion fighter is no less rigorous or intense than the Lee's was. I hate to break it to you, but it's true. I don't dispute Lee's ability or his capacity to obliterate just about anyone who stood in front of him, but I think that, in this case, might would triumph over speed and technique only because Tyson's might was coupled with speed and technique.

Lee was no more a "ballet dancer" any more than Tyson was a "charging bull". :)

C'jais
11-12-2002, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Boba Fife


His fight record is no legend. It speaks for itself as do the films of the fights.

Absolutely and utterly false. He was incredibly meticulous when it came to choreographing his fight sequences adhering religiously to his style and to the way he would've reacted had the scenario been actual.


The Danish boxer I said had a record of 49-0 wouldn't last against Lee. Records doesn't prove anything.
Once again, Tyson has no experience fighting guys like Lee, whereas Lee has plenty of experience fighting almost any style, maybe excepting capoeira (sp?).

One of us got our sources wrong about his choreographing his movies, 'cause I've been told the opposite from a guy that has Lee as a hobby. Regardless, there's a huge difference between using semicontact hits and full force with the intention of killing - particulary when it's being caught on film.

But, Lee said himself, "Boards don't hit back...." Neither do sandbags. Yes. A well-placed kick would be potentially devastating, but to say that boxers legs are basically two pillars from which to support the torso has no validity. They train their legs just as intensely as any other part of their body by running, jumping rope, doing leg presses, etc. as they know that their legs are the base of their attack: they use them to launch their blows just as a martial artist does. They may not use them to kick, but who's to say that Tyson might throw one of those pillars towards an opponent? Would you wanna be kicked by him??? His thighs are like tree trunks comprised of solid muscle.

Sandbags don't hit back no, but it's a fair indication of the power of his legs.

Tyson's kicks.... yes, they would be fatal - for him. Tyson has no skill or experience in kicking compared to even a basic karate fighter. Lee would make good use of Tyson's attempts at kicking, and disable his ability to do just that pretty quickly. When you say that Tyson uses his legs a solid base for his attacks, you are exactly right - and this is the difference between boxing and martial arts focusing on kicks. A boxer spreads his legs so as to better stabilize his body for those long, arcing blows, whereas Lee would place them closer so as not to get hit. The thing is, when your left or right leg is spaced out to better support the jabs and swings of boxing, it's being wide open for abuse by an opponent who knows how to kick.

I can cut it out for you: Tyson's complete lack of experience against martial artists (other than boxing), his complete lack of kick and the way they're employed and his lack of understanding of how much further a kick can hit compared to a punch will leave him in a very bad position to say the least.

I was merely using the "raging bull" analogy to simplify Lee's defence against Tyson if he were as dumb as to charge straight at him "meat grinder style" - that's where the comment on the bull and the sandbag comes in. Do you know how much more dangerous it is to be charged by a bull than it is to be charged by Tyson? And when a martial artist less great than Lee can kill such a charging bull with one hit... well... I wouldn't want to be Tyson in this case.

Yes, a boxer's training is very hard, but it's only being geared towards fighting other boxers - not kick boxers or judo specialists with the intention of breaking your neck.

Of course, you can always say that Lee was pure myth no matter what I say, and I can always say that I have yet to see Tyson fight against a black belt in karate or kung fu.

Boba Fife
11-12-2002, 06:33 PM
Well, I never said that Lee's ability was pure myth. I fancy myself as one of those who immortalize his legacy and his ability as one of the world's great pioneers in fighting whatever the style or technique from bar room brawling to champion Muay Thai.

I hear every word you're saying when it comes to his kicking ability. "His" meaning Lee's. One kick to the right area for anyone would mean lights out! :eek: I don't dispute that, but let's not assume that he'd get a good one in before receiving an uppercut that would lift him off his feet.

Opinion is the only thing we have here as this is a completely fantastic scenario as Bruce is, unfortunately, dead and Tyson is, well, an idiot. But you shoulda seen him in his early 20's when Cus D'Amato was his trainer. Truly awe-inspiring as much as watching Bruce in a fight sequence. I'm always completely amazed at how some people can be that much in touch with their bodies where the mind and physical vessel are one.

By the way, your friend couldn't be more wrong about Bruce Lee and his staged fight sequences. He was so anal about each and every swing of the fist and dodge of the head, etc, that he would film every single sequence numerous times until it was completely perfect. There are archives that document his sketches of the choreography. After all, who was gonna tell Bruce Lee how to "fight"? Steven Spielberg? Quentin Tarantino? That'd be like my giving Mario Andretti driving tips. :)

You really should see if you can get your hands on some of Tyson's fights. He, like Lee, was an amazing person to watch in action. It might make you nod your head and say, "Yeah, I can see where he's comin' from." Even if you still disagree, you'll be amazed at his ability.

Neither one of us are qualified to say with any certainty who would win such an altercation. It'd be one hell of a night to have the buds over with some pizza and beer to watch the tape of it though!!

C'jais
11-12-2002, 06:54 PM
Yeah, I would like to watch Tyson fight, "back in da day" - though I have to settle with the "Tyson versus Danish boxer" :D

I'll tell my friend that, thx :)

However, as my parting word, I'll still claim that one of Lee's low kicks could hit before Tyson's jabs hit in return.....

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 06:55 PM
Word that fife.

Cjais, while you stress that Mike only trained to fight other boxers, I would like to point out that Lee may have never trained to fight anyone as explosive as Tyson. Jeet Kun Do is very analytical of angles of punches and kicks coming in at you, the positions of two fighting bodies in combat with eachother, the movement of feet, the shifting of stances. This is also true in my sport, Tae Kwon Do sparring. I once saw a very skilled Tae Kwon Do sparrer get into a ring with some big bruiser. As soon as the match started, the bruiser rushed and and was pretty much just boxing and throwing a few kicks in here and there. It totally threw off the sparrers game. Some things just don't transpire well into real life situation, and when you have an explosive power house such as Tyson rushing you, I think even Lee would be hard pressed to think his way through it, which was in fact what Lee did and what made him such an innovative fighter. He thought his way through it. Check out some Tyson fights like fife said and you may get a better idea of what im speaking about, I've been downloading some Lee video to get a better point of view from your perspective.

C'jais
11-12-2002, 07:05 PM
Agreed Woodrodius, let's call this one quits shall we?

I can recommend checking out the K-1 tournament to you both btw - it's a no holds barred tournament, where every style of fighting can participate. It gives a very intense view of how the masters of martial arts would perform if they went up against another. It's held in Japan, and very big.

Not to mention a Danish karate fighter has won that tournament several times.. heheheh ;)

Woodrodius
11-12-2002, 07:07 PM
I'm not going to call it quits persay, if anyone wants to drop in anymore feed backback or just to vote, im keeping the thread open. Otherwise I will be posting less. :D

C'jais
11-12-2002, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Woodrodius
I'm not going to call it quits persay, if anyone wants to drop in anymore feed backback or just to vote, im keeping the thread open. Otherwise I will be posting less. :D

Oh, I meant for me only - I'm really tired of arguing this, the time is nearly 12 a clock and I still need to study for tomorrow :(

TheWhiteRaider
11-13-2002, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by Boba Fife


You're assuming that Lee would block each and every one of Tyson' punches. How is it that 35 professional heavyweight fighters in succession could not do this? He was 35-0 when beaten by Douglas never having been so much as knocked down in all that time. I think we may be giving too much credit to the martial arts as the ultimate form of fighting.

Lee wasn't invincible and everyone has their "off" days. See if you can't track down some past fights of Tyson's (Trevor Berbick, Frank Bruno, Michael Spinks) and you'll see what I mean about intense power coupled with blazing fast speed. There's one fight where Tyson hit his opponent so hard in the face that the other fighter actually moved sideways like he was sliding on ice!! He never saw it coming either.

You guys are not thinking of the block I talk about. 90 degree angle fist up in the air. When you have it like this feel how hard your elbow is(The part that is sticking out.) That is pure bone with tissue to act as a a comforter. It is not possible to break the elbow with the fist when the elbow is like I told. The fist is softer so it will break before the elbow does.

This is my last post in this thread.

Bungalow
11-13-2002, 04:28 AM
I think Lee would win:

Sure one hit by Tyson can probably knock out Lee
but he has to land that punch. Because Lee is faster he could land a hit on Tyson's legs right away, and because Boxing requires a strong base consisting of the legs, Tyson wouldn't be as effective after the each hit he takes to the legs.
I would think that Lee would continue to press attacks on his legs, and Tyson wouldn't be able to do anything about it (due to the range factor) since by then he'd have slowed down, and if he went for a knockout punch, Lee would anticipate it due to Tyson's reduced speed, and because of the amount of damage taken to the legs, Tyson would be left wide open since it would take him longer to recover.

I see where your coming from you think Tyson would come running at Lee and even if Lee gets the first hit in, Tyson would at least get in a hit before he feels the effects, but if Lee moved out of the way or better yet kick him in the groin Tyson would be screwed.
(Note that: Lee developed Jeet Kun Do after learning from Wang Chun's school, who was a student of the legendary Wong Fei Hung, who used cheap tactics like finger in the eyes, and kick to the groin, and throat shots to beat his opponents (Hung Gar))

Rad
11-13-2002, 09:09 AM
to Boba Fife:

I am Cjais's friend, who he wrote one of his post with.
I assume that you know quite a lot concerning (sp) B. Lee, and that you have seen at least a few of his movies, and chances are that you have seen the one where Lee is fighting Chuck Norris in Colluseum. It is a quite impressive fight, good-loocking and it is (as you said about his movies in general) at first glance pretty realistic.

Rememer, this is just an example: at a certain piont, late in the fight, Lee rapidly fires off three kicks with his right leg against the head of Norris. Looks awful - but not very realistic. Lee was a way too good fighter to do that in a "true" fight. I agree that he did the choreography himself, was really concerned about doing it good but not realistic like in a street fight.

BTW I heard that the scene was taken out from some copies of the film due to the violence(!?) :confused: but you should be able tho find an uncensored copy some place.

Respect, I enjoy a good conversation / debate. :D

Boba Fife
11-13-2002, 09:56 AM
Rad, have you ever watched any of the biographies on Bruce Lee? They document with vivid explicity that everything was planned. Every kick, swing of the fist, dodge, etc. Lee was responsible for this orchestration and refused to "Settle" for anything less than perfection and would film the fight sequences dozens of times to achieve that level of perfection.

I realize that in a "real fight" choreography takes a back seat to instinct and reaction, but, for the most part, Lee wanted his fight scenes to appear explosive and energetic so as not to appear as a "dance" as is so common in other martial artist's movies.

The History Channel and the Arts & Entertainment Network are where I've seen two different biographies where his wife and former students and colleagues are interviewed and they all concur that his film fights were really no different than how he would've flattened opponents out on the street. That was his goal. :)

I just watched a two-hour biography about a month ago on the History Channel that had me so riveted that my mac n' cheese got cold on the table in front of me because I couldn't take my eyes off the screen!! :D Good stuff indeed. They even show about a 20 minute sequence from 'Game of Death' where Lee and his two cohorts penetrate the seven levels of the Dark Pagoda advancing upward through each floor as a different opponent with a unique fighting style awaits them on the next floor. :ninja1: I don't think I blinked for that whole 20 minutes!! (my eyes still hurt) ;)

That 20 minute footage had never been shown before that special on the History Channel. Ya know the silence and the chill ya get when the narrator say, "This footage has never been shown before now and never made it into the final cut of the movie." I was like, "DAYUM!! Sign me up 'cuz I ain't movin' from this seat!!!!!!!" :freakout:

Arreat
11-13-2002, 06:04 PM
GO LEE!!!
anywayz, i think lee could beat the cr*p out of tyson ive heard he can break stones and other stuff so his fist may pierce through tyson face :D

Woodrodius
11-14-2002, 03:48 AM
lol usetheforx, that post was by far the silliest.

Anyways, after watching 120 minutes of UFC, I am reminded of how sloppy fighting becomes when two non compatible styles are pitted against eachother. In the UFC matches, even martial arts that are practiced with grace, such as Ninjitsu, Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu, usually degenerate quickly in an all out attempt to subdue their opponents. Punching power comes into play heavily, take Tank Abbot for example. At first glance, he appears to be a heavy, sluggish, biker guy who goes around to bars and pick fights. But it's his explosive punching power that has made him so successful in UFC. Now I dont think anyone would debate that Tyson's punching power is easily 3 to 4x that of Abbots, and Abbot wins most of his matches through KO or TKO. Basically, the way techniques are designed, and the way they are actually executed are very different. Even the muay Thai kickboxers in the UFC generally don't land many solid kicks, and only on a few cases in UFC matches have I seen kicks be the fight-enders. Watch some UFC matches and you may see what Im talking about, I don't think that Lee could utilize all the grace and fluidity that he had in his films in a real fighting situation. After you watch some Tyson footage, and some UFC footage, you may start to get an idea of where im coming from. (If not agree with me.)

Boba Fife
11-14-2002, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Woodrodius
Anyways, after watching 120 minutes of UFC, I am reminded of how sloppy fighting becomes when two non compatible styles are pitted against eachother.

Exactly. The champions who continually defeat their opponents use a combination of "12th round" punching salvos and grappling. Karate and Kung Fu masters are no match for people like Ken Shamrock who just charges forward and wraps up his opponent like an octopus around a bluefish. Then he'll just start pounding wildly upon their head forcing them to submit.

Why is that people like Shamrock are perpetual winners of these sanctioned "street fights" whereas the Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu masters never win? The proof's in the pudding. Give Tyson some Gracie-style grappling training and, in the day, he would've been world champion at that as well as having three different championship belts.

C'jais
11-14-2002, 12:14 PM
May I remind you guys that the K-1 tournament was won by a Danish karate fighter for some times in a row (dunno about latest though) - he utilized some very graceful kicks throughout it all, and won the last fight with a pretty impressive kick.

FatalStrike
11-14-2002, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Boba Fife


Exactly. The champions who continually defeat their opponents use a combination of "12th round" punching salvos and grappling. Karate and Kung Fu masters are no match for people like Ken Shamrock

So true yet these "kicks work in real fights" fools still don't get it.

Watch Ultimate fight and notice what happens to anyone that throws a kick. It goes like this....

Fighter 1 Kicks

Fighter 2 takes or blocks kick then tackles fighter 1

Fighter 1 taps the ground in pain

That fancy kicking crap works against poor fighters and in hollywood.

Back to the thread topic how do you think Bruce "120lb" Lee would have done in Ultimate fighting against the heavy weights? I say he might win a match or two before getting beaten like a rag doll.

FatalStrike
11-14-2002, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by cjais
May I remind you guys that the K-1 tournament was won by a Danish karate fighter for some times in a row (dunno about latest though) - he utilized some very graceful kicks throughout it all, and won the last fight with a pretty impressive kick.

Thats nice but we are talking about the best of the best and K-1 doesn't have the best grapplers. You need brazilian fighters for that.

Never forget that Royce Gracie is thin as a reed and has beaten almost everyone. He didn't use anything Bruce Lee ever invented, in fact his family made this technique. It doesn't just work in the movies this technique has actually been tested against the very best HUGE fighters.

Fight pretty and you will leave ugly. Words to live by.

C'jais
11-14-2002, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by FatalStrike


Thats nice but we are talking about the best of the best and K-1 doesn't have the best grapplers. You need brazilian fighters for that.

Neither Lee or Tyson are grapplers.

In order to grapple, you need to get close, something that severe pain from a kick is preventing you from.

Boba Fife
11-14-2002, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by FatalStrike

Fight pretty and you will leave ugly. Words to live by.

My new sig!!!!

Luc Solar
11-14-2002, 01:24 PM
Ooof... I'd be so dead if I ended up in the ring some day.

I've been practising a dozen different sports from track and field to soccer and karate, and all my coaches keep telling me:


GOD DAMN IT! QUIT THE FANCY STUFF!! :swear:


:( *sigh*

lllKyNeSlll
11-14-2002, 03:34 PM
first

tyson would not be able to touch bruce lee

second

lee's stamina is much greater than tyson's

****
however, lee is not the best martial artist in china though he is one of the most well known. becase, the best martial artists do not go to do movies.

the best known martial artists in the world are the graduates of the Shaolin Shi (shaolin temple). however, even these do not compare anymore to the martial artists in the past.

those people who goto most tournaments are martial artists for sport. the best do not practice martial arts as a sport.
and however, weapons and fist are different.

FatalStrike
11-14-2002, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by lllKyNeSlll
first

tyson would not be able to touch bruce lee

second

lee's stamina is much greater than tyson's

****
however, lee is not the best martial artist in china though he is one of the most well known. becase, the best martial artists do not go to do movies.

the best known martial artists in the world are the graduates of the Shaolin Shi (shaolin temple). however, even these do not compare anymore to the martial artists in the past.

Yes yes we have all heard the myths. When these mystical warriors enter and win the global fighting competitions then maybe I will believe. However every martial artist that tries to rely on his speed and kicks in real fights gets his @ss kicked.

lllKyNeSlll
11-14-2002, 03:50 PM
first
a kick is pretty much unblockable by weak people.
a upward kick is powerful but slow. it has greater range than a punch
cuz listen people squat more thn they bench.
kicks are naturally more powerful
chinese martial arts are naturally superior to japanese and korean stuff no offense but it just is.

becuase taikwondo, karate, judo, jutjitsu stress more power. they are more similar to sports.

however, kicking is best stopped by avoiding since they are much too slow in close range to help alone. just like a dfa a kick is less blockable


and btw LEE"S FIST STYLE IS NOT KICKS. HE IS MORE PUNCH BASED. SINCE HE USES 32 STANDARD STYLES OF GONGFU BUT HE USES KICKS

FatalStrike
11-14-2002, 05:12 PM
Watch a real fight between fighter that are NOT OF THE SAME STYLE, and see how immediately useless kicks are in 90% of all fights. If you try to kick a grappler you only play into his game plan and lose faster.


Also is Bruce Lee got in a punching match with Tyson he would be knocked out in seconds. Tyson trained to hit an object hell bent on avoiding you, and showed many times that when he lands its lights out. Bruce never fought anyone as explosive and powerful as Tyson, in fact there are few people that have ever been that strong with punches.

C'jais
11-14-2002, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by FatalStrike
Watch a real fight between fighter that are NOT OF THE SAME STYLE, and see how immediately useless kicks are in 90% of all fights. If you try to kick a grappler you only play into his game plan and lose faster.


Also is Bruce Lee got in a punching match with Tyson he would be knocked out in seconds. Tyson trained to hit an object hell bent on avoiding you, and showed many times that when he lands its lights out. Bruce never fought anyone as explosive and powerful as Tyson, in fact there are few people that have ever been that strong with punches.

Lee most likely wouldn't be hell-bent on avoiding Tyson, he'd be hell-bent on kicking his kneecaps out of their frame, before Tyson's punch would reach it's target.

Regarding grapplers, legs once again have superior range to punches/grapples and can be delivered with just as much speed.

Boba Fife
11-14-2002, 06:08 PM
I had heard from a well-known sports commentator who was at one of Tyson's fights that when Tyson was warming up, he was throwing some punches in the air and in a split second punched a brick wall actually loosening and partially dislodging the brick in the wall!!! Are we still gonna argue about power? ;)

Cjais, I can see you're one who, like me, likes to have the last word in a given situation. An admirable quality, but I find myself having to concentrate on the other person's commentary so as not to appear as if I've already formulated my opinion without having fully absorbed the other's thought.

I'm not saying, "Hey, you're not listening!" But, by the same token, I call 'em like I see 'em. I've seen the "kickers" in the UFC and they don't win!! They land a few good shots to be sure, but then they find themselves in a chokehold or being pummeled by two large fists in no time flat. Every time. Their style goes out the window when their adversary runs right in and grabs 'em and tosses 'em to the mat. Game over. Watch the next Ultimate Fighting Championship and you will see that the grapplers always win, not the ones who use their extremities as projectiles with exclusivity.

C'jais
11-14-2002, 06:24 PM
I'm not saying Tyson doesn't have power, but Lee most likely had that as well.

I've heard of the UFC but never seen it - perhaps I should ;)

In K-1 though, the kickers tend to win, so that's what I've based my opinion on...

Bungalow
11-14-2002, 09:35 PM
You guys keep saying how Lee wouldn't last facing UFC guys but this isn't a thread about Lee vs Shamrock or any other UFC guy, its about Lee vs Tyson, Tyson can't grapple for nothing

Woodrodius
11-15-2002, 01:50 AM
I will admit that I have seen UFC fights won with kicks, but extremely rarely, and only because of some horrible mistake on the part of the person being kicked, (I.E. Slipping) Tank Abbot, who relies mainly on punching power, has never (too my knowledge) been beaten with kicks. All the fighters that reky more heavily on punching power were subdued with wrestling moves, or overpowered by a more powerful puncher. The one guy I saw that got taken out with a kick, was this super fat sumo guy, who dove for his oppenents waste, slipped and fell. Of course, being a fat guy, he slowly began to getting up using his arms, face down. (The worst way to get up from a fall) The other guy skipped in with a round to the face, and the doctor ended it because of the cut it made. So kicks work in very special case scenarios, but on the whole, they arent as useful as punches. And to the comment on Shaolin fighters. Once again, overrated fantasy stuff. As long as they stay up in the mountains and remain mysterious, people will always think they are invincible, and thats a cool thought, but if they stepped into the octagon, I think you'd be let down. :(

TheWhiteRaider
11-15-2002, 02:46 AM
Ok I lied about last post.


I just came back from Self-defence class. My teacher showed me some of Lee's styles. He showed me a block attack. Where you would block and attack at the same time. The block was not one to stop the punch it was one to knock it from the side with a good amont of force(This would throw the other person person off balance) and also you would be punching at the same time. Lee's style was one which teaches you how to take on a bigger attacker even if you are not strong.

Rad
11-15-2002, 09:48 AM
To Fife:

Every kick, swing of the fist, dodge, etc. Lee was responsible for this orchestration and refused to "Settle" for anything less than perfection and would film the fight sequences dozens of times to achieve that level of perfection.

I realize that in a "real fight" choreography takes a back seat to instinct and reaction, but, for the most part, Lee wanted his fight scenes to appear explosive and energetic so as not to appear as a "dance" as is so common in other martial artist's movies.


I can not agree more with you, but please notice that you say that he would not settle for anything but perfection.

But:

his film fights were really no different than how he would've flattened opponents out on the street.

As soon (or next day ;) ) as I had read your post i went to the library to find some books (which I had read before).

Now I quote(I translate from Danish to English, everything in italics is emphasized by me):

"When you begin to use kicks in gung fu it is impertant that you keep the kicks low. When you are practising it is O.K. to kick as high as you can, but in a real fight it is more important to kick as fast as you can, and never let your leg reach higher than your waist. It is way to easy to get knockef off balance by such gradient of toso and legs. And also, your kicks has to correspond with your hand techniques (that means simple, dirrect and effective without any ornamentation nor any attempts to do sophisticated moves).

It is also important that your kicking foot snaps right back after landing the kick, and do not try to use high nor flying kicks in a real fight ."

This was from the introduction to the chapter "Gung fu kicking techniques" from the book "Tao of gung fu", author: Bruce Lee

Just to have his movie-fighting-style fresh in mind i saw "Way of the Dragon" just now. Lee used many high kicks in this movie.

Remember, what you said was that Lee would use the same moves on the street and in his movies.

I belive my last qoute speaks for itself. Thus ends our conversation.

C'jais
11-15-2002, 02:05 PM
What Rad said is true - I just watched Way of the Dragon with him, and Bruce is kicking people's heads like there's no tomorrow...

Boba Fife
11-15-2002, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Rad

I belive my last qoute speaks for itself. Thus ends our conversation.

The "conversation" started when Cjais stated that you had voiced your opinion on how Lee's fighting in his movies

Well, I can certainly admit when I'm wrong as I am apparently in this case. I have not read his book as you've obviously taken the time to at least perouse it for this piece of information. Nothin' like careful research to illustrate your point?

However, I prefer when someone presents pertinent and useful information in a way that enlightens me as you started out. Here's where you lose my respect and make me say, "Was that really necessary?" "Na na na! Got you!" We're not kids in a playground. :)

There's no need to be snide or sarcastic, big guy. ;) I mean, after all, are you trying to enforce your arguement simply by "rubbing someone's face in it", so to speak? Think about that for a few.

On a different note, good job on finding the info. It would've been useful to the entire conversation if we had this nugget of knowledge on the outset! :D

C'jais
11-15-2002, 02:28 PM
Oh, thanks for replying Fife - Rad intended to adress your sig-line (why it's wrong) and also didn't have enough time to "prove" that grapplers aren't going to win versus a kicker.

The discussion on whether Lee would use the same technique he used in his movie when it was for real was closer to his heart I believe - He did know he was right all along, he just didn't have the books rented at that time.

Boba Fife
11-15-2002, 02:41 PM
Actually, Cjais, given Rad's findings, my sig line is dead on the money: "that means simple, dirrect and effective without any ornamentation nor any attempts to do sophisticated moves."

Couldn't this easily be translated as "fight pretty and you will leave ugly"? Or, in more basic terms; keep it simple without all the flash and fancy stuff.

I'm only stating my opinion's as everyone else has. If I've said anything to insult anyone, then I apologize, but can we dispense with the "tag team" now? :)

I've already fallen victim to 2 on 1 and 3 on 1 fights in my life. They're no fun.

As far as proving that grapplers won't win against kickers, let's just watch the next UFC. MY objective isn't to prove you, or anyone else for that matter, wrong. I feel that your intention, however is to do just that rather than to just plain see for yourself. :)

Can we stop now before this trainwreck turns into a flame? No need for that. :)

C'jais
11-15-2002, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Boba Fife
can we dispense with the "tag team" now? :)


:lol: :rofl:

Nah! :D

Well, I think me and Rad reached the following conclusion:

Bruce certainly didn't intend for his fightingstyle to be "pretty" or like a beautiful ballet - the fact the he can strike so fast and rapidly, and that he has an ungodly flexibility simply makes him look pretty doing his fights. Of course, Tyson with his "Rhino tactics" can't do the same thing, and as such will have to settle for an equally effective fighting style - but also an ultimately ugly one, IMHO.

Boba Fife
11-15-2002, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Cjais
Tyson with his "Rhino tactics" can't do the same thing, and as such will have to settle for an equally effective fighting style - but also an ultimately ugly one, IMHO.

Well, that's another conversation unto itself: whether or not heavyweight boxing is an "ugly" style. This is purely opinion just as much as someone who would say that martial arts styles, such as Kung Fu, are a "pretty ballet". I don't feel as if either statement is true. I only wished that you felt the same. :(

C'jais
11-15-2002, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Boba Fife


Well, that's another conversation unto itself: whether or not heavyweight boxing is an "ugly" style. This is purely opinion just as much as someone who would say that martial arts styles, such as Kung Fu, are a "pretty ballet". I don't feel as if either statement is true. I only wished that you felt the same. :(

Boxing is about who can slug it for the longest time while wearing protective rubber gloves. Other martial arts, such as gung fu, are way more graceful and still remain effective.

Boba Fife
11-15-2002, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Cjais


Boxing is about who can slug it for the longest time while wearing protective rubber gloves.

Unfortunately, Cjais, your understanding of "the sweet science" is almost nil. There is so much more to boxing than two individuals punching wildly until one either tires or until the other hits the mat.

That's like saying that Formula 1 racing is no more than small European men getting into cramped over-powered four-wheeled jet fighters trying to get to the finish line without running out of gas.

There is just as much strategy and attention to action and reaction in boxing as there is in martial arts. Without it? You could be killed. Do you think boxers spend 1000's of hours in gyms merely to see how many punches they can throw before being knocked out? You obviously haven't really taken the time to research boxing as Rad has taken to study Bruce Lee's techniques. ;)

One could say, "Yeah? Well karate is all about tryin' to kick or punch the other guy and knock him out! And Jiu Jitsu is all about gettin' people in chokeholds and that's it!!" And you would groan in disbelief. Same thing, man! :) It's clear you don't like boxing. That's fine. It doesn't appeal to everyone. But, I can have esteem and respect for things I don't necessarily agree with or like. Capice'? :cool:

lllKyNeSlll
11-15-2002, 03:43 PM
boxing has a lot of reflex involved to it. avoiding punches and being quick while not being tired is it. however, boxers usually don't deal with anything below the thighs which make that a disadvantage.

but lee v tyson isn't really that impressive. since tyson isn't the best boxer and lee is far from being the best martial artist

C'jais
11-15-2002, 04:05 PM
Fife, now you're getting nasty and have ceased to understand me.

Of course, what I said about boxing was an exageration - what I find silly in boxing is that they train hard to fight in a simulated environment with built-in rules: What if I suddenly try to hit you below the waist, take off my rubber gloves or use kicks?

Yes, you can say that karate or jiu jitsu is about dealing kicks and punches, and getting hold of your opponent in a headlock, but boxing really *is* about slugging it for the longest time since you're not fighting for your life (again, generalizing, but since it's a sport, not self defence, it will always be about abiding the rules even though tactics still play a large role).

Whether boxing is graceful is a personal question, as I expected you to understand - but I can provide arguments if you feel like it: Boxing is dull compared to self defence since you're not utilizing your whole body, you merely walk around in a ring and fight by using rubber gloves to bash your opponent with, sometimes resorting to sweaty hugs. I simply find self defence martial arts more good looking and stylish.

Boba Fife
11-15-2002, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Cjais
Fife, now you're getting nasty and have ceased to understand me.



Not true. I'm not getting nasty. If anything, I feel as if my points about boxing as being as strategic as martial arts are being totally ignored. How is that being nasty?? I could say "you haven't ceased to understand me because you never started!". Now that would be nasty. ;)

Your last sentence is the crux of your arguement: "I simply find self defence martial arts more good looking and stylish." Again, a matter of opinion. You look at a Picasso and see one thing whereas I may see it a completely different way. Am I being nasty again? ;)

Do you know who Roy Jones Jr. is? You wanna talk about stylish? He is so fast with his jabs and so quick to block or dodge a punch that it's indescribable. What about Fernando Vargas? A lightweight champion. Lightweights win more by decision or TKO than by KO because their strategy is about speed and perserverence coupled with movement and precision rather than relying on sheer punching power.

True, boxers don't use their legs to kick or block, but what has that got to do with it? You're getting stuck in the "the guy who kicks is the guy who wins" thing again. I think you're ignoring everything that anyone else, including myself, is saying and simply believe what you want to believe. That's fine. I can't try to sway you away from your beliefs. All I can do is present evidence or examples to help you see it another way. If you choose to throw my thoughts into the trash and simply see it the way you want, then the point is moot.

As I said before, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. :)

Trust me, Cjais, if I were being nasty, you'd surely know it, but what good would that do? I'm too warm n' fuzzy to be nasty. :D

C'jais
11-15-2002, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Boba Fife
Your last sentence is the crux of your arguement: "I simply find self defence martial arts more good looking and stylish." Again, a matter of opinion. You look at a Picasso and see one thing whereas I may see it a completely different way. Am I being nasty again? ;)

True, boxers don't use their legs to kick or block, but what has that got to do with it? You're getting stuck in the "the guy who kicks is the guy who wins" thing again. I think you're ignoring everything that anyone else, including myself, is saying and simply believe what you want to believe. That's fine.

Trust me, Cjais, if I were being nasty, you'd surely know it, but what good would that do? I'm too warm n' fuzzy to be nasty. :D

If you were really warm and fuzzy, you wouldn't keep coming with snide remarks.

As I stated before, I already said that how we perceive grace and "style" is entirely subjective. Look through my previous post and you will see.

I will ignore the flaming for now.

Boba Fife
11-15-2002, 06:54 PM
Cjais, we're getting off on the wrong foot here. Unfortunate. My comments are no more snide than yours or Rad's. Interpretation and context are the keys here. :)

I'm not flaming and wish to avoid that completely. Nothing is gained in flaming.

I think we should let this die as clearly we're the only ones left and this has taken a somewhat negative turn. Obviously, this subject is something that hits a bit close to home for both of us, however I feel as if my rhetort is coming across as an attack on you. Again, unfortunate and unintentional.

There's really no need to threaten me with "I will ignore the flaming for now." :) Totally unnecessary. I'm not one to back down from a fight when I feel conflict exists, however we both suffer from the same affliction: thin skin. And, in this case, there is no need to fight. None whatsoever. :)

Listen, it's late, I have to cruise and the weekend awaits. Enjoy yours and we'll both come back refreshed and ready for some more "light-hearted" conversation, k? K. :)

C'jais
11-15-2002, 06:59 PM
Wise words - let's let this drop.

I do think Rad intends to say a few more words about this, but I won't, unless it's absolutely necessary - and right now I'm beginning to interpretate a lot of things unnecessarily negatively.

Rad
11-15-2002, 07:55 PM
Fife, I did not intend to bug yu nor irritate you. Sorry for that :(
Thanks for the compliment about finding info.

I can see that I have to specify what Cjais said about you sig: I can see your poin in why you think that it is true, but I would not see it as the ultimate truth. I would more say like: train hard: fight easily. Train easily: fight hard (troubled) - and die :)

And just a short reply to the grabler - kicker / puncher discussion. I have a very fine friend who is doing judo (me doing karate). We have excactly the same discussion:) , and to sum up: we think that it depends on the situation: if we stand right next to each other I do not stand a chance. But if I have some space, then he will not get near me. In that way I could keep him away and kick / punch him down.

C'jais
11-15-2002, 07:59 PM
Rad, wtf are you doing up right now? Where are you? What are you wearing right now? :naughty:


j/k :D

Pierre the Frog
11-15-2002, 08:18 PM
Hi! I'm the FINE buddy!!!!

Anyways, my experience tells me that Judo only works in regulated fights, as soon as you grapple someone, there going to have the opportunity to do something very unpleasant to you (grapping your balls being the worst). I don't know what the UFC are, but if its anything like Judo, you wont be able grapple for long!

(I'm not saying judos bad here, it is one of the most effective techniques I know for immobilizing your opponent, but in a street fight you're simply too exposed when you grapple someone)

Woodrodius
11-17-2002, 04:26 AM
Sorry I haven't posted in a while. Bruce Lee's ghost decided to strike back since I've been talking **** and decided to blow up my power supply on my comp. No joke, the capaciters on it blew up and were leaking this goo inside, it was crazy. So, thats where I've been, and it's an excuse to bump my thread to get more people to post :D