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TheJackal
11-12-2002, 10:39 PM
If you are watching the news, you would know that Bin Laden has released an audio tape. He stated his support to recent activities such as the Moscow hostages, the resort bombing and the French oil tanker in Yemen. In the tape, six countries are singled out as targets of al-Qaeda: Great Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Australia and Canada. Each country is accused of supporting "the White House gang of butchers."

This is a wake up call. I mean, the whole world just forgot about this idiot and turned attention to Iraq.

Its sorta odd because in the last month Canada has been defending most muslim countries because some Canadian citizens from muslim origins have been deteined by American officials. And now we're targeted.

I'm gonna be scared just to go downtown or even public places for a while now since I live in the Nation's Capitol.

Tyrion
11-12-2002, 10:41 PM
Sorry to hear that Jackle.

It just seems that Bush goes on wars only for the glory....that and for greed...*coughoilinsteadoffindingosamabinladencoug h*

Sad world we live in....

Cry with me.

*sniff*

Elijah
11-12-2002, 11:04 PM
This is bad... but it's also a wake-up call for all the non usa people out there who say that us Americans are over reacting...

Taos
11-13-2002, 12:37 AM
I hadn't forgotten about the man named Osama. I was kinda wondering when he was gonna poke his rat face back out into the world......

Scary thing with this guy still alive...:(

That is just a testament to the news media coverage.......for some reason they just like to focus on one event at a time. Or so it seem anyways......

Rogue15
11-13-2002, 01:29 AM
why don't the retards [read: people who he is seen with in video tapes] just kill him? they must be rich.

TheWhiteRaider
11-13-2002, 01:32 AM
like to focus on one event at a time

Bingo! The main line media only finds one story and sticks with it for months. You almost have to go to other sources just to find something else going on in the world.

Kylilin
11-13-2002, 01:36 AM
I'm gonna be scared just to go downtown or even public places for a while now since I live in the Nation's Capitol.


I understand your fear, i live in New York City, and being a New Yorker has meant something different since that September day. But you can't give in to your fears, thats how they win.

Darth Groovy
11-13-2002, 07:20 AM
I think Gee Dubya is trying to finish what his dad started. Fine by me, but fix the economy and get Bin Laden first, unless that is his sales pitch for the next election.......



*puts on flame retardent suit and hides*

Taos
11-13-2002, 12:01 PM
You know what 007.......I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that was gonna be used for his next election campaign....:(

Politics is politics and he has to get back into office somehow.........he could say that it is beneficial to have him in office because he's "been there" he also "knows what's happening" in the Middle East.

I just want things to get done and this is the order IMO:

National priority: Economy

International priority: Finding Osama

International priority 2: Iraq.


But then again....this could be the total wrong way to do it because maybe there is something big happening over in Iraq that they just can't tell us......

Whatever happens, I hope for everyones sake it is a correct decision.

Elijah
11-13-2002, 12:19 PM
They may be fakeing that tape so that we still think he is alive...

Mex
11-13-2002, 12:21 PM
Erm...

I'm scared...

I DONT WANNA DIE, :( :( :( :( :( :(

NerfYoda
11-13-2002, 12:25 PM
Thats just the reaction they want you to have. They want you to hide in your homes. My way of saying f*uck off to Osama is by going about my daily business uninterrupted.

FatalStrike
11-13-2002, 12:28 PM
The Middle East countries have been getting away with too much nonsense for too long because of their oil supplies. I saw this whole scenerio coming long ago.

The Middle East:

- No democracy
- Human rights violations are common and supported by the governments
- No womens right
- Support for extremist groups

With those facts its a wonder the middle east wasn't dealt with long ago. I am not saying the US is correct in all its actions but that region needs to get out of the stone age, and has to stop causing massive problems for the rest of the world.

Frankly I am sick of the governments not meeting their responsibilities. They can't keep "trying" to stop terrorists from using their countries as bases of operations. In no other place on this planet would countries be allowed to say "we are trying" and not be bombed to oblivion when it becomes obvious they are not.

Iraq is a non issue to me since they have a choice. They either allow inspectors to go anywhere as dictated by the treaty they signed long ago or they get attacked and forcefully disarmed. The ball is in their court, they can't cry victim this time.

Jedi_Monk
11-13-2002, 01:42 PM
This is bad... but it's also a wake-up call for all the non usa people out there who say that us Americans are over reacting...
No... we're overreacting to Saddam "the devil" Hussein and way underreacting to Osama bin Ladin. It's time to get smart. A war on terrorism is impossible, just like a war on drug use. A war is declared between two countries. What are we gonna do? Invade every nation where terrorists are hiding? Become the New World Order? Heck, there are terrorist cells in America! We should declare martial law and get the concentration camps set up! I'm sure there are some people who would actually love to see that. Just throw away the freedoms our forefathers and veterans have fought for because we're too scared to be real patriots.

International police action is the only solution. Forget the war talk, forget the damn doublespeak! War is peace, ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery!

and on edit for today: On March 13, 2002 Bush said:

"[Osama bin Laden is] now a person who's been marginalized ... You know, I just don't spend that much time on him, to be honest with you. I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned with him."

http://members.aol.com/dannilalfletch/Jedi_Monk.jpg

Breton
11-13-2002, 03:09 PM
FatalStrike, far from all middle east countries are that bad, it may be 1 or two countries, but nothing more. You should not say that all middle east is like that (PS: Israel is in the middle east too)

Also, you know as well as I that Bush will go to war on Iraq anyway, even if they should let the inspectors see everything. So they don't have that much choice, expect US will look really bad if they attack Iraq totally without reason.

Goverment changes can be done without a war, you know.

acdcfanbill
11-13-2002, 03:28 PM
There has been a lot of fighting and bloodshed in the Middle East area for thousands of years, and i fear that it will continue for many more. It seems to be the nature of some people to be genocidal maniacs...

C'jais
11-13-2002, 04:03 PM
What are people going to do with Osama once they get hold of him? :rolleyes:

One of you mentioned that "I thought he was dead by now..." - Do you believe he'd get his throat cut by those soldiers finding him, or do you think they could restrain themselves so he can get a proper trial? Do you think he even needs a trial? hmm?

Jed
11-13-2002, 04:18 PM
I highly doubt that if he is found he will be taken alive. Despite what is "technically" correct, I think he'll get killed on the spot.

But, as someone has already said, this might be some fake message to make us think he's alive...

And we can hold Iraq off for awhile. Osama dead should be our national priority.

Arreat
11-13-2002, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by ZDawg
This is bad... but it's also a wake-up call for all the non usa people out there who say that us Americans are over reacting...

the world is coming to an end!!! :eek:











damnit why did we canadians have to get involved ... we shoulda kept our hands to ourselves :P :bdroid1:

Darth Talliusc
11-13-2002, 05:10 PM
i dont understand why al-queada has chosen those 6. i guess some of it makes sense from his twisted view but really by doing that hes making it worse for himself. as jackal said the canadians have been doing a fair bit of good recently. im sure that the other countries mentioned have been doing good too but i dont really hear about it as much as i get the canadian news and american news only. id be more worried living in toronto then in ottawa (i live in kingston btw). and no not because i suspect that osama is as dumb as the character john candy played in canadian bacon (if you saw the movie you'd understand) but because of population difference. toronto is widely acknowledged as THE major canadian city. sure decisions are made in ottawa and its probably more important to the country but i dont expect ppl halfway around the world to understand our political processes etc.

fact is that if that maniac gets hold of anything big enough to hit a large city with then it probably will be aimed at the US, (i dearly hope that he doesnt though).

i dont know too much about the subject (mainly because all the news on TV is majorly skewed and i choose not to watch much of it), but i recognize that that maniac needs to be stopped. he's trying to make life better in the middle east by killing people everywhere else? im sorry but if he thinks that this will help the middle east at all then he really doesnt understand how the UN reacts to assaults on its member countries.

nerfyoda has the right idea imo. osama's main weapon is fear. after 9/11 airlines went down the tubes. everybody was afraid of flying and that had more of an impact (economically) then the loss of so many people's lives. i disagree with much of what the US has done in wake of that day last september but i agree with a fair bit as well. they are taking charge and doing what needs to be done. there have been attrocities made *i once saw a commercial selling "commemorative plaques" made from the metal salvaged at 9/11 talk about horrible* and the bombs that were dropped on civillians (and allied soldiers). but war is never pretty and can never be without loss. i just hope that it ends soon and we can go back to living freely, without fear of some middle eastern whacko with entirely too many people supporting him.

StormHammer
11-13-2002, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by TheJackal
[B]This is a wake up call. I mean, the whole world just forgot about this idiot and turned attention to Iraq.[/i]

I disagree. Just because it hasn't been the focus of the media, doesn't mean to say that governments world-wide (nor the people of those countries, for that matter) have lost focus on the key issues, including Bin Laden.

I have never believed that he was dead. He probably escaped - and part of the reason for that, unfortunately, was the time it took to actually get troops on the ground hunting for him. If they are 98% certain the voice on this tape is geniunely Bin Laden, I don't doubt it. They could be right that he has changed his appearance, and doesn't want to go on video this time around for fear of exposing his disguise...although having said that, he could just as easily stick a sheet over his head.

I'm gonna be scared just to go downtown or even public places for a while now since I live in the Nation's Capitol.

Don't be. That is what terrorism is all about. Unless there is an imminent threat, and places are cordoned off, I recommend you go about your life as usual.

For example, about 19 years ago, I visited my sister in London, and we went to see the Royal Guard (they are mounted guardsmen who dress up in polished dress armour etc...). Anyway, I took a photo of these guys riding down the street, and it was all great. I had a great time.

A week later, all those same guys were dead...killed in a terrorist bombing. Around the same place I'd photographed them. I missed it by a week. Did it stop me from going back to London to visit my relatives? No. Because that would have been giving in to terrorism.

Originally posted by TheJackal
This is bad... but it's also a wake-up call for all the non usa people out there who say that us Americans are over reacting...

Well, isn't that what you are doing now? Over-reacting? If we all knew the threat of Bin Laden had not gone away, then why should we be surprised at this latest move? The problem has not gone away. If you don't hear from him for 10 years...the threat still has not diminished - if anything, it's increased, because you don't know what he's been up to.

Anyway, I have to disagree that it's a 'wake-up call' for non-USA people. You have to remember that many countries...including the Middle East, European countries, and Great Britain...have suffered the consequences of terrorism for many, many years. I can't speak for residents of other countries, but in the UK, we are all too well aware that a bomb or other device of terrorism could go off anywhere, any time...and whenever you walk down the street, you take a risk. Part of the key is remaining vigilant...but you should never bend to the primary demand of terrorism...fear. If you give in to fear...you give them what they want.

The stakes are a great deal higher than ever before...as shown by the tragic incident on September 11th...but the fundamental situation is the same. It is not enough to get the terrorist in your gun-sights...you have to look long and hard at the root causes, and however painful it may be...deal with them.

Jedi_Monk is right. However much spin politicians may want to put on this situation, and declare 'war' on terrorism...it is a false notion. There are many, many varied terrorist organisations around the world, each working to their own agendas, and the only common denominator is that they utilise actions of terror to draw attention to their causes. But those causes vary from group to group...and those causes are formed within the cultural and socio-economic climate of the countries in which these terrorist cells operate.

So you have to ask yourself...are you really going to attempt to police the entire planet? Are you really going to try and resolve every single incidence of unrest by dealing with the root causes of that unrest? It doesn't seem all that feasible to me, because you can't succeed without asking for the permission and cooperation of the governments of those other countries to become involved. It is a dangerous path to simply take matters into your own hands, and do what you feel is right...because then you tread a very thin line between your ideals, and becoming the thing you despise.

There is no single antagonist...but many. There is no single country...but many, including our own. You cannot engage them on a battlefield and say the one with the most left standing at the end wins. Unless the situations within countries where terrorist cells operate changes...which will take policy decisions, negotiations, and a lot of listening on both sides of an argument...then terrorists will continue to crawl out of the woodwork. They will see the justification if the causal effects remain. The leaders may be fanatics...but they can only remain in their positions of power if they can exploit unrest to their own advantage. If there is no unrest...then how can you rally others to a cause?

Unfortunately, matters are complicated by our perceptions as human beings. One man's paradise is another man's hell. And it is impossible to please everyone, no matter what your policy decisions. There will always be causes to fight for...and so there will inevitably always be fanatical idealists to exploit those situations to their own personal advantage, and wage their own war of terror on their perceived oppressors.

So...am I worried about this new threat to Great Britain, and all of those other countries mentioned? Yes, I'm worried. But the thing is...I never stopped worrying. And I will never stop worrying, because I believe such threats will never go away in my lifetime.

FatalStrike
11-14-2002, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
FatalStrike, far from all middle east countries are that bad, it may be 1 or two countries, but nothing more. You should not say that all middle east is like that (PS: Israel is in the middle east too)

Far from? I will say 90% are absolute pieces of sh^t. I am not saying it to be mean, but the evil war mongers that run those countries care nothing for their people.

Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Also, you know as well as I that Bush will go to war on Iraq anyway, even if they should let the inspectors see everything. So they don't have that much choice, expect US will look really bad if they attack Iraq totally without reason.

That remains to be seen, also I have 10 bucks that says Iraq doesn't let the inspectors go where ever they want just like they did last time.

Iraq is hiding a lot, and it may not just be weapons but human right violations as well. We shall see soon enough.

Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Goverment changes can be done without a war, you know.

Really? Tell that to Fidel Castro.

ShadowTemplar
11-14-2002, 03:25 PM
Now that the thread caption mentions it: Am I the only one who has noticed how many (un)holy men have been laying down radical views in the recent (and not so recent) conflicts.
The Middle East is dominated largely by theocracies (including Israel BTW) and in Northern Ireland catholic and protestant priests have a strong say in things. Tjetjenia I don't know about. Russia seems anxious to keep things closed.
BTW: Bad living conditions/governmental treatment is not the only cause of terrorism, as some did suggest, as there has been neither in Northern Ireland (the army was sent in to suppress the biased protestant police force and paramillitary groups and ensure equal treatment of both groups. So the IRA hits against the army was essentially "friendly fire."

FatalStrike
11-14-2002, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
Now that the thread caption mentions it: Am I the only one who has noticed how many (un)holy men have been laying down radical views in the recent (and not so recent) conflicts.
The Middle East is dominated largely by theocracies (including Israel BTW) and in Northern Ireland catholic and protestant priests have a strong say in things. Tjetjenia I don't know about. Russia seems anxious to keep things closed.

I have noticed this as well but would like to add that relegion just a tool that is being used to make certain leaders seem more justified. Its just politics over there. They are no different then Red China and the former Soviet Union. They use whatever method will get them in power and opress the poeple once in power.

Like I said the ENTIRE middle east (including Isreal) have been causing trouble and getting away with it for too long. It is time they are dealt with by the rest of the world and made to understand this......

"HEY YOU AREN'T THE ONLY ONES ON THIS PLANET SO STFU AND GET YOUR SH^T TOGETHER "

After they take a good @ss kickin and some governments tumble the world will be better for it. Freedom will only help the situation over there, and once those people are free and realize that it was their own leaders that were responsible for their misery, they will be able to heal and grow.


Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
BTW: Bad living conditions/governmental treatment is not the only cause of terrorism, as some did suggest, as there has been neither in Northern Ireland (the army was sent in to suppress the biased protestant police force and paramillitary groups and ensure equal treatment of both groups. So the IRA hits against the army was essentially "friendly fire."

No its not the ONLY reason but it does cause people who other wise would be peaceful to be consumed with hate.

In Ireland you have a bunch of idiots causing problems, but you don't have the locals middle class strapping bombs to their chests and running into cafe's. Only extreme misery will allow a human mind to be weak enough to allow such an idea to take root.

Breton
11-14-2002, 05:29 PM
Like I said the ENTIRE middle east (including Isreal) have been causing trouble and getting away with it for too long. It is time they are dealt with by the rest of the world and made to understand this......

Really FatalStrike?

Then tell me why Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Western Sahara and Yemen are all evil countries led by warmongers who cares nothing about your people.

And before you say that 90 percent of the middle east is led by evil warmongers - wouldn't it be wise to notice the evil warmonger leading your own country?

ShadowTemplar
11-15-2002, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by FatalStrike


I have noticed this as well but would like to add that relegion just a tool that is being used to make certain leaders seem more justified. Its just politics over there. They are no different then Red China and the former Soviet Union. They use whatever method will get them in power and opress the poeple once in power.

My point is that they sometimes don't even need to oppress anyone: They have a mandate from heaven.

Originally posted by FatalStrike
No its not the ONLY reason but it does cause people who other wise would be peaceful to be consumed with hate.

In Ireland you have a bunch of idiots causing problems, but you don't have the locals middle class strapping bombs to their chests and running into cafe's. Only extreme misery will allow a human mind to be weak enough to allow such an idea to take root.

I don't think that there is any middle class on the West Bank anymore. Anyway, during the First Crusade the entire population of Jerusalem was put to the sword for no logical reason, save the zelotism of their conquerors.

And the 'bunch of idiots' that you refer to in connection with Northern Ireland would have lost their breath long ago if they hadn't been supported by the locals: They recruit from almost every layer of society, and they wage gurillia war. Not easy if they are just 'a bunch of idiots'.

Anyway, I won't go into the Religion: Good/Bad debate, as that will get an otherwise good thread shut down faster than you can type "flame war". Now you know how I think about it, and I will continue to read this thread with interest.

This is ShadowTemplar signing out.
The shadows will have eyes...

BTW: What does it mean when there is a little black dot on the envelope next to a thread.

Clemme w/Stick
11-15-2002, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Tyrion
Sad world we live in....



You said it Tyrion!! Well, I dan only agree to that!!

-Clemme