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View Full Version : Force forbid! Did I find a contradiction?


JediNyt
11-17-2002, 01:48 AM
We all know in Ep5 Yoda says the Dark side is not stronger. Well Luke asked him if it was stronger and Yoda answered no. Now I really dont think Yoda would lie and why would George just have him lie if he didnt know for sure if he was gonna make Ep 1, 2 and 3?

Heres what Im getting at; in the Ep2 dvd commentary George says the Dark side is stronger! WTF? It was during the scene of Shmis funneral. He said to have the most power you must turn to the Dark. But ultimately it corrupts and leads to distruction. Now hold on before posting! There is to be no Dark side fan boy posts raving "I told you so I told you so! Hahaha noob! I was right! I knew!" STFU! You fan boys out there have no basis for posts like that. You didnt know. No one knew until George said so. You just had a corrupt hunger for power and the "cool" abilities of Dark side users. Thats it.

George recently stated the Dark side is more powerful. Now of course hes not saying its better. He didnt just say its more powerful and thats it. As I said before he stated (As all Jedi say) Its power corrupts, dominates and destroys the user. Those arent the exact words of course but thats the jist of what George says. Like nuclear power. More specifically nuclear weapons. They are the most powerful weapons that humans have ever created. But they like the Dark side are not good things. The Death Star is not a good thing. But its still the most powerful weapon in the galaxy. You all see what I mean. The Dark is bad and should not be used. Or like Lotr. The one ring of power is too great and terrible to be used. It corrupts and destroys. Bad thing.

So anyway what this thread is mainly about is why George supposedly contradicted a huge part of Star Wars. :eyeraise:

Listen to the commentary and think about it before posting please.

No ****ty Dark fan boy dork posts I remind you. :tsk:

Boba Rhett
11-17-2002, 05:38 AM
He just didn't elaborate on his thought, I imagine.

The way I've always understood it is that with the dark side, you get a rush of power basically right up front. With the light side, you can grow more powerful than any dark sider could but it takes a lot of time.

Count Dooku 2
11-17-2002, 07:59 AM
I told you so! Oh... hang on...

I must agree with you, JediNyt: although the dark side may be more powerful, it's not better. I'm glad George Lucas did point out that the dark side is stronger, though, because this will stop those annoying arguments saying "The dark side rules!" ect.

Jedi_Monk
11-17-2002, 03:16 PM
In what context did Lucas say that the Dark Side was stronger? Was he explaining part of Anakin's thought process, was it a relative statement, or a difinative one from the mouth of the Star Wars god?

I'm thinking two things:

1) Rhett is right. Power in the Light Side takes devotion and sacrifice. Your will is not what you let control your actions, but the Will of the Force. You have to listen to what the Force wants you to do, and have the fortitude to do it. This sets limits on your powers, and what you can do for personal gain. With the Dark Side, the sky's the limit. You can do whatever you want, whenever you want and use it to get anything you want. Power comes very quickly with absolutely no inhibitions.

2) Yoda might be telling a half-truth in ESB. "Is the Dark Side stronger?" Well, we can surmise that the Dark Side doesn't have the support of the Will of the Force from the fact that every vergance we've seen didn't turn out well for the Dark Siders. Anakin Skywalker brings Balance to the Force, wiping out the Dark Side, and Luke is led to the Emperor and Vader by a vergance which was the catalyst for Vader fulfilling his destiny. So in that respect the Dark Side is not stronger.

However, Yoda might have just been trying to encourage Luke by downplaying the power of the Dark Side. Remember that Luke's only trained in the Force about a week-and-a-day at this point. If Yoda said "Yes, you're gonna get slaughtered", what would Luke have said? Maybe Yoda was counting on the fact that a vergance was coming that would help Luke. Remember also that Yoda tells Luke not to underestimate the Dark Side.

Those're the thoughts that occurred to me while I was reading that post.

http://members.aol.com/dannilalfletch/Jedi_Monk.jpg

JediNyt
11-17-2002, 05:01 PM
Well to get what Lucas said first hand listen to the commentary. Im sure most everyone here has it. But to those of you who dont. Lucas was talking about Anakin and how he thought he should be all powerful. How he promised to be the most powerful Jedi ever. How Dooku said he was more powerful than any Jedi.(Which hes not, but hes close.) To become most powerful you must turn to the Dark. But ultimately it destroys you. Thats pretty much the context Lucas said it in.

Taos
11-18-2002, 01:26 AM
Yeah, that's right JediNyt. The darkside is so powerful that it takes a toll on your body. Anyone forget what Anakin Skywalker looked like when Luke took off the mask in the hanger? O.O

The wear and tear of the darkside isn't too friendly. Powerful, it is.

STTCT
11-18-2002, 07:30 AM
Maybe he just meant that in Episode 2...the darkside has the upper hand? Right now the dark side is clouding everything and is apparently stronger. However...than why did our Yoda friend kick the Dark sides butt (dooku)? Maybe he didn't mean "Stonger" as in strength of powers but rather a stronger pull. Its harder to stay on the Light Side because the pull of the darkside is stronger...

don't know just throwin out ideas.

Purple_Tentacle
11-18-2002, 07:53 AM
my thoughts :

the darkside makes a sith powerful quickly, but a jedi would be more powerful than a sith after a long time of training.
so someone using the darkside would be stronger than most, but once a jedi became equal in power with the darkside user, the jedi could surpass them, and the darksider would stay the same.

Count Dooku 2
11-18-2002, 01:02 PM
I think Yoda was telling a lie when he said the dark side was not stronger.

If Luke said "Is the dark side stronger?" and Yoda replied "Yep, stronger it is." or something then Luke would be tempted to the power that the dark side offers. By saying "No", Yoda stopped all thoughts in young Luke's head about turning evil and using the power to become a big player in the galaxy.

Count Dooku was boasting a little bit when he said "I've beocme more powerful than any Jedi... even you!", but there is a hint of truth in his statement. The perks of the dark side included that trademark Sith lightning, and the Jedi posses no Force power equivalent to the destruction caused by the lightning. Power can be measured by destructive capabilities, and this means that the Sith are more powerful than the Jedi in this respect.

Kryllith
11-19-2002, 01:13 AM
For all the power of the Lightning, it certainly seem to be pretty worthless against Yoda...

Kryllith

boinga1
11-21-2002, 10:39 PM
I think lucas just means in epii it's stronger...

"The dark side clouds everything."
-Yoda


But, none of us can really know, only lucas

Purple_Tentacle
11-21-2002, 10:50 PM
ok, i see what you are saying. so the darkside is stronger in the sence that it is more destructive.

but yoda doesnt see destructive powers as being stronger in terms relating to the force. possibly an eternal afterlife is a perk associated with the jedi. hence making the jedi stronger in terms other than destructive power.

"war does not make one great" - Yoda

PowerBroker
11-24-2002, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Purple_Tentacle
possibly an eternal afterlife is a perk associated with the jedi.

Actually, Jedi are supposed to become one with the force, not retain their identity. Only a vergence in the force allows Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin to retain their identities after death.

Plo_Koon_27
11-24-2002, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by JediNyt
We all know in Ep5 Yoda says the Dark side is not stronger. Well Luke asked him if it was stronger and Yoda answered no. Now I really dont think Yoda would lie and why would George just have him lie if he didnt know for sure if he was gonna make Ep 1, 2 and 3?

Heres what Im getting at; in the Ep2 dvd commentary George says the Dark side is stronger! WTF? It was during the scene of Shmis funneral. He said to have the most power you must turn to the Dark. But ultimately it corrupts and leads to distruction. Now hold on before posting! There is to be no Dark side fan boy posts raving "I told you so I told you so! Hahaha noob! I was right! I knew!" STFU! You fan boys out there have no basis for posts like that. You didnt know. No one knew until George said so. You just had a corrupt hunger for power and the "cool" abilities of Dark side users. Thats it.

George recently stated the Dark side is more powerful. Now of course hes not saying its better. He didnt just say its more powerful and thats it. As I said before he stated (As all Jedi say) Its power corrupts, dominates and destroys the user. Those arent the exact words of course but thats the jist of what George says. Like nuclear power. More specifically nuclear weapons. They are the most powerful weapons that humans have ever created. But they like the Dark side are not good things. The Death Star is not a good thing. But its still the most powerful weapon in the galaxy. You all see what I mean. The Dark is bad and should not be used. Or like Lotr. The one ring of power is too great and terrible to be used. It corrupts and destroys. Bad thing.

So anyway what this thread is mainly about is why George supposedly contradicted a huge part of Star Wars. :eyeraise:

Listen to the commentary and think about it before posting please.

No ****ty Dark fan boy dork posts I remind you. :tsk:

it's not that the dark side is actually stronger what lucas meant is that the power of the dark side is more seductive and easier to use making a younger force wielder like say anikin as powerfull as Obi-Wan

Plo_Koon_27
11-24-2002, 02:34 PM
another contradiction between the prequels and the original movies is this: watch The Empire Strikes Back and listen to what ben tells luke and i quote "luke, you must go to the dagobah system and there you will learn from yoda the jedi master who instructed me" end quote. now in episode I it is revealed that Ben is actually instructed by Qui-Gon-Jinn NWTF why is there so many contradictions??????????????

:koon: :duel: :lsduel: :naboo: :syoda: :aobi: :kiadi: :lightning :saberb: :saberr:

Jedi_Monk
11-24-2002, 02:58 PM
watch The Empire Strikes Back and listen to what ben tells luke and i quote "luke, you must go to the dagobah system and there you will learn from yoda the jedi master who instructed me" end quote. now in episode I it is revealed that Ben is actually instructed by Qui-Gon-Jinn NWTF why is there so many contradictions??????????????
And as SW2 revealed, Yoda teaches the Younglings the ways of the Force before they are taken as the Padawan Learner (apprentice) of a Jedi Knight. Yoda teaches them the basics, and their Jedi Master teaches them how to put their learning to the test in the galaxy at large, in real-world situations before they are Knighted themselves. Therefore, Obi-Wan was trained by Yoda.

And he couldn't very well have said "Seek out Qui-Gon..." since Qui-Gon was dead. There's no contradiction here.

This is one of the major plot-points in the Prequels... Yoda thought that Anakin was too old to begin the training and so refused to teach him. Anakin lost out on all of the knowledge that could be given by somebody who had been training Jedi for almost 800 years. He went straight to the rank of Padawan Learner under Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan said that he thought that, "...I could teach him as well as Yoda..." because he was essentially taking Yoda's place, trying to teach Anakin all of the basics (something that Jedi Masters don't generally have to do because Yoda does that).

http://members.aol.com/dannilalfletch/Jedi_Monk.jpg

Plo_Koon_27
11-24-2002, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Jedi_Monk

And as SW2 revealed, Yoda teaches the Younglings the ways of the Force before they are taken as the Padawan Learner (apprentice) of a Jedi Knight. Yoda teaches them the basics, and their Jedi Master teaches them how to put their learning to the test in the galaxy at large, in real-world situations before they are Knighted themselves. Therefore, Obi-Wan was trained by Yoda.

And he couldn't very well have said "Seek out Qui-Gon..." since Qui-Gon was dead. There's no contradiction here.

This is one of the major plot-points in the Prequels... Yoda thought that Anakin was too old to begin the training and so refused to teach him. Anakin lost out on all of the knowledge that could be given by somebody who had been training Jedi for almost 800 years. He went straight to the rank of Padawan Learner under Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan said that he thought that, "...I could teach him as well as Yoda..." because he was essentially taking Yoda's place, trying to teach Anakin all of the basics (something that Jedi Masters don't generally have to do because Yoda does that).

http://members.aol.com/dannilalfletch/Jedi_Monk.jpg

there is a contradiction cause from the special edition trilogy George revealed that yoda was Obi Wan's Jedi Master till his knighthood not another jedi master like revealed in episode I but it is a good idea you had jedi monk.

JediNyt
11-24-2002, 04:38 PM
Where in the Special Edition did you supposedly find this out? All that we know from the special edition is in the movies.

Jedi_Monk
11-24-2002, 05:29 PM
there is a contradiction cause from the special edition trilogy George revealed that yoda was Obi Wan's Jedi Master till his knighthood not another jedi master like revealed in episode I but it is a good idea you had jedi monk.
You're talking about the interviews with Leonard Maltin? Well, George Lucas also once said (via a script treatment) that Obi-Wan and Owen Lars were brothers. We listen to Lucas to get a look at his thought process, what he's trying to say in the movies. We also extrapolate from what he's said and written and create theories based on these things. Star Wars, as Lucas' story has gone through many drafts over the last 28 years (I believe this was when the first draft was completed, 1974), and like all stories it evolves over time. At the time of the Leonard Maltin interview, he hadn't even started writing the script for Episode I. There is no continuity contradiction so long as the movies square with eachother.

edit: I was just listening to the Eipsode I commentary and here's Lucas commenting on this subject (Chapter 28, The Jedi Council): "Plotwise, we're dealing with the insistance of Obi-Wan taking on this young kid [Anakin] and train him even though, in theory, the child should've been trained by Yoda until he was about seven or eight years old. And then, when he was seven or eight, he'd be given a Jedi, he'd become the Padawan Learner to a Jedi. So here we have Qui-Gon wanting to skip the early training and jump right to taking him as his Padawan Learner, which is controvercial and ultimately the source of much of the problems that develope later on..."

http://members.aol.com/dannilalfletch/Jedi_Monk.jpg

Purple_Tentacle
11-24-2002, 07:42 PM
as if lucas is going to spend that much money and not have someone proof read the script! there is no contradiction mahn.

(but i still dont know how pademe knew they were at a "hanger" in ep.2)

"Pademe, do you have any Jedi in you ?" - Anakin
"No" - Pademe
"Would you like some?" - Anakin

hey do u guy recon that Obi-Wan would have trained luke a little as he grew up in tattoine ? like a little bit of swordfighting skills here and there? he must have had some input to his growing up.

lukeiamyourdad
11-24-2002, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Purple_Tentacle

hey do u guy recon that Obi-Wan would have trained luke a little as he grew up in tattoine ? like a little bit of swordfighting skills here and there? he must have had some input to his growing up.

I think luke only knew who Ben was and not Obi-Wan. He couldn't have thought him any swordfighting skill. In epIV, luke sees a lightsaber for the first time. I think Obi-Wan looked over luke and visited him occasionnally.

JediNyt
11-24-2002, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by Purple_Tentacle

(but i still dont know how pademe knew they were at a "hanger" in ep.2)

"Pademe, do you have any Jedi in you ?" - Anakin
"No" - Pademe
"Would you like some?" - Anakin


:eyeraise::lol: Wtf? Methinks you a bit perverted.:giggle1:

As far as the hanger thing, how else would Dooku escape? A ship that is probably in a hanger. Duh. Or if not that, perhaps they saw the hanger when they were coming to Geonosis.

Purple_Tentacle
12-02-2002, 09:47 AM
As far as the hanger thing, how else would Dooku escape? A ship that is probably in a hanger. Duh. Or if not that, perhaps they saw the hanger when they were coming to Geonosis.

quite possible, but i wish they had inserted the line " He is headed for that hanger "

Kain
12-02-2002, 06:34 PM
when'd this turn into a genosis hangar debate? but ne ways, the dark side is really offensive in most aspects. but not saying light sided jedi's cant use it. dooku, if u read the rp darkside handbook, it talks about how when he was a jedi was talking about a Jedi who wuz pure could use the dark side without fear of repcution, and in the rp game, u can use the dark side and by purifying urself by spending force points and spending time meditating. overuse of the dark side destroys u and makes u look like emporer palpatine and vader. its all about balance and self control to make a good jedi