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michael_collins
12-03-2002, 02:16 PM
The concussion rifle in DF and JK are practically two differnet guns, in DF they pretty much focus in on enemies and engulf them in blue flame, while in JK they fire somewhat similar to the Merrson missle in JO, how will the mod team address this ?

ImmolatedYoda
12-03-2002, 04:39 PM
in JK the primary concussion blast, yes, is basically like a missile since you can see it (although it is different too) but the secondary fire (single pellet thing) is quite different. DF doesnt have this problem as there is no secondary concussion fire i believe

Darth_Linux
12-04-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by michael_collins
The concussion rifle in DF and JK are practically two differnet guns, in DF they pretty much focus in on enemies and engulf them in blue flame, while in JK they fire somewhat similar to the Merrson missle in JO, how will the mod team address this ?

answer: we'll address it as best we can ;-)

Emon
12-04-2002, 06:30 PM
I would imagine it will be like JK's, but because of the Merr-Sonn (assuming you replace that) it'll be like JK's, but it will home...

michael_collins
12-05-2002, 03:37 PM
Id hope it to be more in the vein of the original one, i never was fond of the old one, JKs was by far less efficent, is it codable (that a word?) to do it like the old one

Katarn07
12-05-2002, 05:07 PM
They're both the same excluding the whole secondary fire thing. DF's however fires different amounts of shots withg auto aim on. Say there are stormies 50 yards apart and you fire straight down the middle, they'll roast in their own pool of blue fire!
With autoaim off in JK, it only produces one pool of fire.

Emon
12-07-2002, 02:09 PM
That's just the problem, you can't code a DF style concussion rifle.

JorBo
12-11-2002, 11:45 PM
You could just to damage to everyone in view...

MilesTeg
12-12-2002, 11:49 AM
I always thought that force lightning could be a good start for coding the concussion rifle....

michael_collins
12-12-2002, 02:51 PM
how you figure that?

Emon
12-12-2002, 10:54 PM
All that would work except for the fact that you CAN'T code. AT ALL.

michael_collins
12-13-2002, 11:02 AM
All that would work except for the fact that you CAN'T code. AT ALL.

Is that directed at me ? or MilesTeg?

The_One
12-14-2002, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Emon
All that would work except for the fact that you CAN'T code. AT ALL.

Emon, we have coders who are adapting the WLS code to function as the SP game code - we can then bring our MOD into the game. They will be introducing AI etc.. into the code.

Soon enough we will have a proper SP mod for JKII that gives us freedom within the source code etc...

Katarn07
12-14-2002, 01:09 PM
So pretty much enemy AI and these bad, big n buff weapons won't require that SDK?

Will the blast look like the Repeater's secondary fire, only will be bigger and shoot differently?

Emon
12-15-2002, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by The_One


Emon, we have coders who are adapting the WLS code to function as the SP game code - we can then bring our MOD into the game. They will be introducing AI etc.. into the code.

Soon enough we will have a proper SP mod for JKII that gives us freedom within the source code etc...

You cannot adopt the WLS MP code for SP. You do not have the sourcecode for singleplayer JO, and you can't just throw in some WLS MP code, overwrite the old DLL and hope that there's some divine intervention and it happens to work. The WLS code has absolutly nothing to do with singleplayer, and cannot be adopted, ever. Sorry guys, you just can't do it, it's impossible. As much as I'd like it to work, it won't.

And that statement was meant for everyone, in that no one is able to code since we CAN'T code for SP. We've got ICARUS that we can use for puzzles and cutscene, but outside of those ext_data files, we cannot do any modding, not in the sense you can for MP. We can never change the way the guns function, we can't code new AI, we can't make adjustments to the saber system, we can't even adjust the accuracy of the guns!

michael_collins
12-15-2002, 06:37 PM
Im willing to forgive the limitations of the existing code, go out on a limb thats hairfine and say that regardless of coding problems and issues, and with the demo being a taste of things to come, that even with the problems Emon has raised, Darth's team can pull this off, and besides, coding limitations was not the reason i started this thread. The reason i started it was to find out (from one of the team members point of view, since theyre making this mod, and thou are'nt) which of the two firing styles (Jedi Knight and Dark Forces) the concussion rifle will resemble.

Emon
12-15-2002, 09:31 PM
The problems I pointed out make it absolutly IMPOSSIBLE to do any kind of REAL weapon coding for JO SP. You can change the way the weapons look and sound, and change a LITTLE of their functionality. You can change the fire rate and ammo, that sort of thing. If you just reskin the Merr-Sonn, primary fire could look like JK's concussion rifle, but secondary fire would still be seeking.

The best possibly solution is to replace the weapons with the other weapons, like the things for the AT-ST and emplaced gun. Perhaps you could edit the menu files so that hitting 9 or whatever gives you that TIE-Fighter weapon, which you could maybe slightly modify to be like the JK conc. I dunno, just an idea.

With some cheap hacks like that you could pull off maybe a JK style concussion rifle, MAYBE. But beyond a few cheap hacks and tricks, you're kinda screwed for coding.

Darth_Linux
12-15-2002, 11:04 PM
I don't know if you missed this Emon, but the full version of the Dark Forces MOD is technicallyl a Multi-Player game. It will use jk2mp.exe, and an adapted WLS Coop code for it's base. We aren't modifying the SP game any further now that the demo is out.

The demo was done in SP as a proof of concept, and to see how much interest it generated. Now that it's out, I'm already working on moving all the resources into the format required for MP and the code team is DIFFing the original MP source and Wired Lamp's mod. We are also borrrowing from the JetPack source.

cheers!

Geoffrey S
12-16-2002, 11:21 AM
I was under the impression that the co-op mod failed mainly because the WLS coding couldn't support the amount of entities needed for a SP level. And DF contains more enemies/doors than the average JO level.

The_One
12-16-2002, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Geoffrey S
I was under the impression that the co-op mod failed mainly because the WLS coding couldn't support the amount of entities needed for a SP level. And DF contains more enemies/doors than the average JO level.

Yes, but we have a way round that. We will be using spawn triggers at certain points in the map, which will keep the entity numbers right down. WLS couldn't do this with the SP maps as they don't have the actual .map files for the SP levels. So, any user-made level has an advantage over WLS.

The Count
12-16-2002, 07:04 PM
NOOB question but couldn't WLS just get the .map files from the pk3 file (I know they probably thought of this, but I'm curious)

Darth_Linux
12-16-2002, 08:47 PM
the .map files are not in the pk3 files (except for a couple samples like Kejim Post). That's the problem, without being able to edit the original maps they couldn't make it work.

As Rich pointed out, since we are starting from scratch, we can design our maps with those limits in mind.

Bartolo_JCS
12-17-2002, 12:11 AM
this is where we ask ourselves the same question as before, why didn't they put deadly sight in Jedi Outcast... or a multip player hitting offensive type force/weapon,

the best thing to edit here in my opinion would be team heal or team drain which effect more than one target like the old concussion rifle in DF

any thoughts?

Emon
12-17-2002, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by The_One
Yes, but we have a way round that. We will be using spawn triggers at certain points in the map, which will keep the entity numbers right down.

That's impossible. The problem lies with the func_entities. You can only have 256 func_doors, func_rotatings, func_plats, func_statics, etc. And there is NO way around this. You cannot create and remove these type of entities with triggers. The average DF level had a lot more than 256.

There's also the problem of the MP code being simply buggy beyond all hell, a lot of which you aren't able to fix without the full engine source code. Half the shader stuff doesn't work, half the entities don't work right, func_breakables only break into rock (although you may be able to fix this)!

Your AI is also going to be limited as a result. The AI used in SP is very complex, there are tons of factors that effect the reactions of the NPCs. And for scripting, how are you going to manage to code ICARUS into MP, if it's even possible? Having to code a bunch of entities for each objective is going to suck, A LOT...

And all this just so you can make a few new weapons? It's really not worth it.


Sorry if I sound negative, but I'm just being realistic. I also don't want to see a great mod go down the tubes because all the modifications they wanted to do to make MP like SP turned out to be either not possible or extremely inefficient.

MilesTeg
12-17-2002, 08:03 PM
@Emon:
ok, I know this is not a full reply to you answer but I asked TheSnerd (maker of the Coop code) about this some time ago:


Iīve heard that a map that uses your code is limited to 256 models.

Itīs very important for me to know if you really meant "models" or all
entities in the level (e.g. info_player_start, light entities, triggers
etc.) !?

Answer:
yes, models - why would I have meant entities?

Emon
12-17-2002, 10:57 PM
I swear they said something about brush entities (func entities)... Someone might have quoted them without directly quoting them and I took their word for it. *Shrug*

The_One
12-18-2002, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Emon
I swear they said something about brush entities (func entities)... Someone might have quoted them without directly quoting them and I took their word for it. *Shrug*

Emon, also bare in mind that it is not just weapons we have to code. If you play the original DF you'll realise there are a bunch of things not possible without some form of source code. We are prepared to put the time into this to get it right. Hell, the mod would suck if you had JKII weapons and none flying Dark troopers ;)

Emon
12-18-2002, 07:42 PM
Dark Troopers are something I hadn't considered... I suppose it would be better to use the MP code for that.

All I can say is good luck coding it, 'cause it's going to be really difficult. I hope you get it to turn out well.

(Sorry if I sounded negative earlier; I just didn't want to see this mod go down the tubes because of goals set really really high like many other mods and TCs)

Albinoman
12-19-2002, 11:55 AM
Dont forget the flying Boba Fett too.

Ravensroke
12-25-2002, 01:18 AM
Yah, one of the things that JO lacks are really big bad ugly bosses.