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Darth_Linux
12-23-2002, 04:11 PM
One of the mappers is pretty busy getting the Arc Hammer level finished up and we would like to hear some opinions about how to handle the conveyer belt jumping puzzles in that level.

Should we reproduce them exactly as in the original?

Update them to be less like Super Mario Brothers?

Eliminate them entirely?

Turn it into a knock off of the Geonosis Factory Conveyor Belt scene from AOTC?

let's hear some thoughts!

Katarn07
12-23-2002, 05:11 PM
I say leave it alone. Puzzles are good, especially if they are inventive like the vault and the conveyor belts. However!!!
There is this duck that must be made to proceed (the hardest part of the puzzle) that a ducking JO Kyle may not be able to get through. Just a heads-up-on that!

Perfect Chaos
12-24-2002, 12:12 PM
I say keep it the same exactly. However, there are a couple of things that should be fixed. In Dark Forces, if you fall, it makes you lose like 96 HP. That's really not fair ;) So I say put some extra med kits down there or something... because newer people are definately gonna fall. Well actually, I think in JO Kyle will be able to fall farther distances with little damage. You'll also have to raise the walls a little higher that Kyle has to crouch under, as Katarn just mentioned, because in JO you can't crouch as low. In DF you could crouch and fit into an area with a z unit value of like 16 units above ground... well maybe not that low but it is very low I know that.

Monkey Mania
12-24-2002, 01:23 PM
Map=Same
Gameplay=Change for that map


:D

X-Vector
12-24-2002, 03:03 PM
My opinion is that you should stay as close to the original as possible - this goes for the whole of the MOD.
Only implement changes to the original design if it's absolutely unavoidable.

I must admit that I'm just being selfish here, to be honest I'm not really interested in anything more than a straight port - a Doom Legacy/JDoom type update would have sufficed for me, although I realise this may not coincide with your plans.

The most important thing IMO is that nothing remains that reminds me of Jedi Outcast, which I don't consider a true successor to DF and JK in any way.

It may seem picky, but I even consider something as minor as the status update JO bleep in your demo annoying and unwanted.

Katarn07
12-24-2002, 04:06 PM
JO is indeed the worse in the series for maps/textures/gameplay.
Sure, it looks like the SW universe, but gets really repetitous and bland once you get to the next level pretty much...
But with DF textures on cheezy-puzzle maps that have no logic as to why the heck they're there, that is what makes DF, JK, and MotS so great.
We saw what you could do with the demo, so I have no worries.

Back on point, leave it. Just fiddle around with the problem mentioned above...

Darth_Linux
12-24-2002, 07:04 PM
What are some of your other cheesy puzzle favorites from the first 3 games? Can you all elaborate on why you liked the cheese factor in them? This might give us some more ideas on how to capture that original DF/JK/MOTS feel and not succumb to the JO bland factor.

On a side note, I would have loved to get source code for DF and just do a win32 openGL version ala zDoom or jHexen, but alas, LEC is not releasing it.

Ravensroke
12-25-2002, 01:12 AM
Its just my opinion, but that particular convetor belt always felt sorta static to me, I mean if its a conveyor belt, it should be doing something. That's why I would recommend changing it to something resembling the Episode II conveyor belt scene.

Something with welders and things. Still an obstacle course, but something that feels like its in the 21st century instead of a 1980's arcade.

Personally, I'm all for preserving the original game, but I have a feeling that IF LucasArts were doing a conveyor belt today, they would make it like Episode II, and that's what I think MOD is all about, remaking DF Like it would be made today.

Just my $0.02

Katarn07
12-28-2002, 11:15 AM
Thanks for the update explining the problem.

When I said they were cheezy, I meant there was no purpose in doing such a stupid think.
Level 3 had those doors that were locked, so the puzzle made sense. That isn't a spoiler all, because you'll learn in the breifing right away about the maze.
Later levels, however, had some stupid puzzles of moving stuff, and we had no clue as to what it was we were riding on. Just a big giant platform with a hidden switch guarded by DTs and Gammoreans. Can't think of specific examples...

Emon
12-28-2002, 07:19 PM
DF was an early FPS, and like other early FPSs, had very cheesy puzzles, mostly because there was no other choice. JK on the other hand, had excellent puzzles that made a LOT more sense. JO is like DF again, simply because Raven's level designers suck.

I suggest you change any of those rubix cube type puzzles from DF to things more believable and more realistic. Who cares if it's not staying to the original? If people want the exact original, they should play it. I don't think this mod should just be DF with better graphics, I think you guys should aim to make it into what DF SHOULD have been.

Salv
12-29-2002, 01:39 AM
I agree with Emon here...

Katarn07
12-29-2002, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by Emon
I think you guys should aim to make it into what DF SHOULD have been.


Ummm, when I was playing the demo, I was amazed at what I saw. Don't ruin that by replacing the puzzles, please. Adding details to the level, however, is totally different in all respects.

When you said EPII conveyor belt, I was confused as to what you meant. Sure, add some details to the belts, but don't put welders in, because if you remember, those welders on the Arc Hammer can get quite nasty up close...

Maybe you could put some raw elements on the belt and a ore grinder that crushes the stuff. This would be on level 8, not 14.

For 14, put some exo-skeletons of DTs on the belts, but this may interfere with Kyle's movements... I suggest testing a bunch of different things for the belts.

Is their noise in that level? It's way too quite I think. Add machinery noises to those factory levels and the spaceport level...

The_One
12-29-2002, 09:37 AM
I think we should work out more clearly the different options we have before us, then put it to the poll on the website next week - it's about time we got some useful feedback from that thing :p

Emon
12-30-2002, 05:25 AM
Originally posted by Katarn07
Don't ruin that by replacing the puzzles, please.

Ruin it? That Arc Hammer puzzle was a peice of crap, how would making a better puzzle ruin it? If you want DF's ****ty puzzles, go play the original game.

The story shouldn't be changed, but the puzzles should. Some of DF's puzzles where good, but a lot of them were random rubix cubes thrown into the level. With a modern engine you can create much more realistic puzzles that will contribute to the absortion factor of the environment and make it more fun to play.

Back in 1994, it wasn't possible to make really good, complex and realistic puzzles like we can make now. No one had any expectations other than a rubix cube either. But it's 2002 now, the standards are much different. The DF mod team is trying to keep up with today's standards in graphics, sound, and AI, so I see no reason why not to keep up with the standard for puzzles and challenges.

Katarn07
12-30-2002, 07:55 AM
How would you replace it?
You'd have to mess with the entire architecture of the map? We don't want that!
I'm not sure what was so "stupid" about this puzzle, it was really one of the better ones.
You had to stop the belts to proceed, and to do that, there is a switch to do just that on the wall. Now that is a bit unrealistic I think. To make it realistic, add a worker there or something. But when putting in workers, don't make them kill you (if possible), we don't want new enemies...

Emon
12-31-2002, 02:00 PM
You don't have to change the entire architecture of the map to change DF's silly puzzles, you never would have to.

The reason it's bad is simply that it's rediculous. It was all just a random mess of conveyor belts that served no apparant purpose. To fix this, it should be redesigned into a real construction facility for the Dark Troopers.

And I don't see what would be bad about adding worker NPCs...

Darth_Linux
12-31-2002, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Emon
You don't have to change the entire architecture of the map to change DF's silly puzzles, you never would have to.

The reason it's bad is simply that it's rediculous. It was all just a random mess of conveyor belts that served no apparant purpose. To fix this, it should be redesigned into a real construction facility for the Dark Troopers.

And I don't see what would be bad about adding worker NPCs...

Great ideas Emon - I'll see that the level goes in that direction.

Emon
12-31-2002, 08:06 PM
By the way, there should be things like conveyor belts moving raw materials, welders and assembler things that should make various parts of the Dark Troopers in front of your eyes. With ICARUS in SP it would be pretty easy to do, just some brush entity moving commands and hide the transformation of stuff behind things like welders and presses (raw materials go in, armor comes out, etc). It'll take some more coding if you're using the MP code, but your team is, I hope, up to that challenge.

Katarn07
01-01-2003, 05:00 PM
As long as it doesn't interfere with Kyle's movements, I have no argument. I have suggestions below.
But no raw materials in 14, its a factory for the DTs. Put arms, limbs, and various parts on it. Raw phrik can be in the little hour glass containers (as seen in level 4) on the belts in level 8 and they can then fall into that one pit of gases near the end of the exterior area of the level.

Once again as long as it doesn't interfere and knock me off all the time, I have no complaints. Please don't add new NPCs unless you do the JO enemy update for a 4th difficulty level.

Emon
01-01-2003, 06:32 PM
No, the raw materials should still be there. That thing on level 4 was a processing and testing plant for that stuff, but it still needs to turn into Dark Trooper armor, which would happen on the Arc Hammer.

Katarn07
01-02-2003, 08:58 AM
Make the phrik red in 8, silver in 14???

Also, I realized that your solution of adding more detail doesn't get rid of the fact that Kyle must jump around like the Super Mario Bros, as Darth put it, to complete the level...

And I don't want it to anyways...

Emon
01-02-2003, 09:17 AM
I said they should redesign the puzzle completely so it's not so damn stupid. It's the logical thing to do.

ImmolatedYoda
01-02-2003, 09:28 AM
now that i think about it, an episode II like assembly line would be sweet! like arms swinging back and forth, tweaking parts and stuff, some that would knock you off, perhaps into a great chasm or more belts or something? that would be cool.

Katarn07
01-02-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by ImmolatedYoda
like arms swinging back and forth, tweaking parts and stuff, some that would knock you off, perhaps into a great chasm or more belts or something? that would be cool.

That is what I don't want! That level's puzzle is good as is. Adding details like arms tweaking stuff is fine, as long as it doesn't hurt me.

Perfect Chaos
01-02-2003, 11:33 AM
In my opinion, all the puzzles are fine. I find myself being a purist, but still... honestly, it isn't called a Dark Forces MOD for nothing. This isn't a TC, but still... I hate to be harsh, but if it is better puzzles you want... go look for some other mod/custom maps.

If DF is to be converted into JO with better graphics, better AI, and new detail (simply detail, not new added stuff), none of this will work. In my opinion, any new such things will ruin the feel of the original game; and that's just what Darth and I and many others want this mod to accomplish, and that is to capture the original feel of Dark Forces...

Also in my opinion, but I think that new textures, AI, models, new detail, etc... is completely fine with me to get me to get excited all over again about Dark Forces. I don't need all this extra junk that wasn't even in Dark Forces.

PS - Please do not get offended by this post. I am stating my opinion in the best way I can without offending anyone... if you are offended I'm very sorry, but I tried not to be cruel to anyone.

michael_collins
01-02-2003, 11:48 AM
i like emons ideas, i seem to recall a level in JO that had exosuits of Shadowtroopers in it

same thing with DTS ? like a kinda tube encased DT ready to be launched from a loading terminal?

and if you can make it as imperialistic as possible, then do it :D
remember the imps are decedant as hell.

Katarn07
01-02-2003, 04:36 PM
Although, adding details to the game not affecting over all gameplay is alright with me too.

xcountryman03
01-03-2003, 01:20 PM
I agree with both katarn and emon. There sould be welding arms (what use would an assembly plant be?) but they shouldn't hurt you. But also there should be NPCs working, just maybe they not hurt you. Is there any way to make the panick?:confused:

Katarn07
01-03-2003, 03:59 PM
They shouldn't aid or hurt you though. Just be dead (as seen in demo), sitting/ standing in a cell, or in the workers' case, crouched down on the ground "working".
Suggestion of mine to add to the solving of the puzzle.
It'd be neat for the deactivation switch to be "broken" and a worker working on it.

Master Toddy
01-04-2003, 03:46 PM
Don't change the puzzle unless absolutely necessary. I like all the DF puzzles the way they are, but, go all out when it comes to adding detail.

An episode II-ish conveyor belt would absolutely rock, seeing the creating process of the Dark Troopers would be sweet. Don't forget one important factor though: sound. The conveyor belt should be noisy, with all kinds of working sounds throughout the converyor belt, like the moving of welder arms, etc., constructing the dark troopers.

The welder arms shouldn't necessarily bother Kyle to the point that he is knocked off of the conveyor belts. Also, what would be cool, is if control stations were added throughout the conveyor belts with workers working on them, or, possibly, windows along the walls of the conveyor belts where Kyle could look in and see control stations with workers going about their business (kinda like in SoF2 - in the shop level where you could look into the windows and see people working, but you couldn't enter the rooms where they were working).

Katarn07
01-05-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Master Toddy

Don't forget one important factor though: sound. The conveyor belt should be noisy, with all kinds of working sounds throughout the converyor belt, like the moving of welder arms, etc.

I suggested this above, and totally agree. Very noisy.

Originally posted by Master Toddy
windows along the walls of the conveyor belts where Kyle could look in and see control stations with workers going about their business, but you couldn't enter the rooms where they were working).

I like this idea. I suggest it be done, sorta like (not really a spoiler, just some architecture and secret area info)

In level 8, the Robotics factory had several rooms (windowless then, add some breakable windows in your mod please!!!), only one in which you could enter via a red key. It was full of officers and commandos.
You could have some officers supervising the workers in these rooms.

xcountryman03
01-05-2003, 04:31 PM
i agree with all that. but also one note for this level as well as the others: don't make it so blocky!! DF was because it had to be. the quake 3 engine supports much much more rounded surfaces. take advantage of that.

Katarn07
01-14-2003, 03:26 PM
Where is the stuff on the belt going to go to?

If you remember, if you take the wrong fork in the conveyor belts, you'd fall. Why would they dump ore and DTs onto the ground below???

On Anteevy, however, it's good to see the ore fall into the refing gasses....