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Wraith 8
01-07-2003, 08:26 AM
Like i said in the "=A= discussion nr.1: Abbreviation" this is also a thread of discussion.

This thread is about how we are going to get around with the money we earn.

Now Gaalgoth and I (helmet to :p) have talked about this.
and i think there are some options for us.
First i want to say.. that i dont think we shouls put every last credit you earn into the PA... cause... well.. you have to have something for yourself. but ill put it in the options.

Option number 1:
Every credit you make will go into the Associates PA bank acount!

Option number 2:
50% Of every credit you make on ONE job goes into the Associates back account!

Option number 3:
20% Of every credit you make on ONE job goes into the Associates back account!

Option number 4:
Every week you donate 20% of your entire PROFIT into the Associates Bank account!

Option number 5:
Every month you donate 20% of your entire PROFIT into the Associates bank account!

Option number 6:
Every week you donate an amount of credits to the Associates bank account depending on how much you earned that week!
if you earned:
10 credits that week you donate 2
20 credits that week you donate 5
50 credits that week you donate 15
100 credits that week you donate 30
150 credits that week you donate 50
200 credits that week you donate 80
500 credits that week you donate 150
1000 credits that week you donate 300
2000 credits that week you donate 500
5000 credits that week you donate 1000
10000 credits that week you donate 2500
(remember, i made these numbers up by thinking what would be fair.)

I think these are the options available to us. If you think you have another one that would be better than the one i listed, please post that option.

On a side note, Lord Helmet has been chosen to be the bank manager of our PA! he will control it and he will keep tabs on every credit you donate and see what you can take out of it.

Gaalgoth? please sticky this thread

-Wraith 8-

Jan Gaarni
01-07-2003, 02:59 PM
Whatever you people decide. :) I'm not known as the math wiz. ;) :p :D

Thew Rydur
01-07-2003, 04:30 PM
I said 20% a week. That way the PA would have a steady income, not just a lump some at the beiginning (or end) of the month.

swediot=)
01-07-2003, 04:41 PM
just my opinon here the percentages are not fair .... because if one guy ok...... say that wraith earns 20 credits and i earn ten ..... then i would only have to give 2 credits where as wraith would have to give 4 which i think is not fair.. what do you guys think

Jan Gaarni
01-07-2003, 04:56 PM
Not really, cause you have 8 Cr left, but Wraith have 16. Still twice as much as you have. :)

It is as fair as you can get it. If there was a set amount, then it would be unfair.
Ex.: While you have to give 2 Cr (20% of your own pocket), Wraith also gives 2 Cr, but that's only 10% of his pocket. You follow me so far? :)
Now that's unfair.
Why should you, who have less, have to pay more than the guy who has more?!? :confused:

Lord Helmet
01-09-2003, 08:05 PM
Now, what I think is that...You should have 20% given a week r month gotta se hwo profits work...Then we we shall see..Thenunder certian circum stances involving a depression lol...we use the special circumstance option...where you either must temporairily pay more or less....read my sig...its true

Mnalar
01-10-2003, 12:37 PM
Just my two credits fer consideration :
First I understand the need n benefit for contributions.
Which is the right method? hmmmmm.
Let us recognize that there will be primarly two different gaming styles, 1. a gamer that is dedicated to aquiring items, uber house, uber items, uber shop all thru credits. 2. Gamer that is dedicated to aquiring uber skills, n power thru combat n experience.
each gamer will have the same level of satisfaction, just different.

A few qustions:
How does/will the banker know how much you have made? is it the honour system ?
If so can honestly reporting your income credits so that the association can take the proper cut become a problem?
Would this method require alot of effort that may take the banker away from their gaming time?

Since we are talking percentages of income, it is best n more commonly know as a tax.
the idea of eg: 20 percent tax is that, yes some people will make less and therefore they have less, and yes some people will make more, and have more. but a middle ground is hoped to be stuck. However any goverment supporting this system has two problems.
1. trying to motivate low contributors to do more to contribute more.
2.chasing around and policing high levels of contributers, eg: IRS

My gaming style is a combination of both so I would be okies for either one.
May I suggest a method that is easy to monitor, requires low level of effort, and fair regardless of gaming style.
A membership fee to " The Association" to be paid weekly or monthly. The amount cant truely be decided untill we are in game and have an understanding of the value in a credit,
1 credit= $10
1 credit= $100 n so on.

What is great is how the collective of "The Assosiation" is hammering out many of the details that will allow us to be a successful community in game.

swediot=)
01-10-2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
Not really, cause you have 8 Cr left, but Wraith have 16. Still twice as much as you have. :)

It is as fair as you can get it. If there was a set amount, then it would be unfair.
Ex.: While you have to give 2 Cr (20% of your own pocket), Wraith also gives 2 Cr, but that's only 10% of his pocket. You follow me so far? :)
Now that's unfair.
Why should you, who have less, have to pay more than the guy who has more?!? :confused:

but i wouldnt have to pay more id have to pay the same

Zendjir
01-11-2003, 07:47 AM
but i wouldnt have to pay more id have to pay the same

He means a higher percentage Swediot. that means the poor guy pays comparitively more than the rivh guy. That is unfair indeed.

However I don't think a tax system would work, you can't control it. Someone could say that the made 100 instead of the 1000 that he really made. Who could ever know that he is lying?

I think that an other system is needed, I might have a god idea:

- Everyone pays a standard weekly or monthly fee, a standard amount that even a relatively poor guy can pay.
- For every building or vehicle that the player owns he pays an amount of money per week/month.
- Every member can purchase several "PA-privileges", like extra storage room in a PA facility, monthly free pass to a PA controlled spaceport, places to build inside the PA-city, etc. For these privileges a weekly/monthly pay has to be paid.

What do you think of it, lemme know.

Mnalar
01-11-2003, 10:48 AM
Also for consideration we might try looking at taxing the character based on their level. Someone of higher advancements usually has more means to earn more credits.

Jan Gaarni
01-11-2003, 07:28 PM
but i wouldnt have to pay more id have to pay the same
Ok, slightly different scenario then. :)

The weekly taxation of the members are set to 200 Cr.

You have just managed to spink and save up 200 Cr the past week. This you would now have to pay to the Association.

Wraithy here on the otherhand has managed to make 1 000 000 Cr and pays his 200.

Both of you has made this out of nothing.

He is still left with 999 800 Cr, while you are as broke as anyone can get. :)
Still sounds fair? ;)

swediot=)
01-11-2003, 09:29 PM
seems fair to me because he would have wroked harder than me so he should be rewarded

Thew Rydur
01-12-2003, 12:39 AM
Yeah, but maybe Wraith has more skills and can make more money. Then maybe some of Wraiths money can go to you through the PA so you can make as much as him.

Ingrown
01-12-2003, 12:42 AM
I smell communism in the air...

Ingrown
01-12-2003, 12:44 AM
I say we run a socialist type of system. I live in the United States, so I may not so much as you Europeans, but it seems to work for you guys.

Mnalar
01-12-2003, 01:06 AM
unfortunetly we arent going to have a solution that will accomadate everyone, however this is a democratic discussion and everyone gets to be heard, and all sides will be considered.
I'm also sure that what ever the fee/tax is it will be fair and realistic. we are a few days away from the launch of SWG, so we have plenty to time to sleep on this issue as well as others.
so far I have to say I'm excited about the thought that everyone is putting into the issues, and also that the thoughts are not ego, or selfishly based.

Mnalar

swediot=)
01-12-2003, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by Ingrown
I smell communism in the air...

sniff sniff COUGH COUGH

well atleast were having discussion here so its not a dictatorship anyway :D :p

but serious i dont know why but i really dont like this percentage thing

Mnalar
01-12-2003, 01:09 PM
Quote: Jan Gaari

"You have just managed to spink and save up 200 Cr the past week. This you would now have to pay to the Association.

Wraithy here on the otherhand has managed to make 1 000 000 Cr and pays his 200.

Both of you has made this out of nothing.

He is still left with 999 800 Cr, while you are as broke as anyone can get.
Still sounds fair? "

Okies how about a 20 percent tax rate in the same situation
Wraithy would now pay 200 000 credits
The other would pay 40 credits

hmmmm, prolly wont be long before wraithy starts to ask why he is paying 200 000 compared to 40, and what is worse is the more he hones his skills the more he is going to pay.

Wraith 8
01-12-2003, 03:20 PM
@ Mnalar: I surely hope all of you are honarble? arent you? cause then i would like you all to leave now :D.

i mean come on... im basing this whole system on trust. im putting my (game) life on all of you to protect me / help me.
so where would our PA be without that trust in its members.

Ofcourse Helmet cant see if you did give the percentage ot what ever we choose... but i hope i can count on everybody's hoonesty on this cant i?

So far i havent voted on a system. i havent even looked at the result so far. im going with what ever you guys decide.


But agree on it will yah :D

Jan Gaarni
01-12-2003, 08:10 PM
Okies how about a 20 percent tax rate in the same situation
Wraithy would now pay 200 000 credits
The other would pay 40 credits

hmmmm, prolly wont be long before wraithy starts to ask why he is paying 200 000 compared to 40, and what is worse is the more he hones his skills the more he is going to pay.
I never said it was 100% fair, I said it is as fair as you can get it. :D
The only thing fairer than that is if noone payed. ;)

swediot=)
01-13-2003, 12:24 AM
well i guess so but to put a tax everyweek is abit extreme it should be more like verymonth and we could have a system where the more you earn the smaller percentage of your earnings you have to pay .....

say 1 guy ears 10 in one month and the other earns 20 the 10 dude would pay say 20% where as the 20 dude only pays 15% or something like that .... that could be an option couldnt it?

Zendjir
01-13-2003, 06:28 AM
No Swediot, it would not. If we should go with a % tax, the amount should be the same for everyone. However, I'm not a very strong supporter of a % tax. Wraith says that it is all based on trust, I want a bit more assurance than that.

Someone mentioned basing the amount you pay on your level, that won't work....cuz there are no levels. But it would be a good solution to base the tax on your ingame "status". This status can be measured in the ways I have mentioned before, but other options are what kind of skills someone has (someone with money skills paysmore than medics) or howmuch influence they have in the PA (a mayor pays more than a simple member).

There are different options for taxing:
A % Tax option based on trust will be fair IF everyone follow the taxing rules strictly. It's based on trust. That would mean that every member has to keep a record of his income and be totally honest. Howmany players actually keep detailed records of their ingame info (ie. income) and are totally honest. I'm honest, but I dont keep records. So this system would be uncontrollable and often unfair.

A tax option based on status will be fair IF:
- The status of someone can be checked (This is possible by status indicators; Number of houses/ skills/ number of NPC's/ Etc.)
- The amounts of money your have to pay for that status is fair, so that most people will be willing to pay.
Can a status be checked? Yeah, to a certain extent; some indicators of a player may remain hidden and some kind of recordkeeping is neccesary (however, much less than the % option). The amounts that have to be paid can be decided democraticly. This option isn't perfect, but I think it's better than the % option.

When making a decision, think about the GAME, not real life. In real life the % tax option works perfectly...it's won't work ingame because there is no control.

Wraith 8
01-13-2003, 01:20 PM
Well Helmet is our Bank manager... and he will look into the thing of who payes his tribute.

if you keep paying your tribute as a member.. you can use the money like a back account... ok .. we dont put interest on it :p... but you can use it :D

swediot=)
01-13-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Zendjir
No Swediot, it would not. If we should go with a % tax, the amount should be the same for everyone. However, I'm not a very strong supporter of a % tax. Wraith says that it is all based on trust, I want a bit more assurance than that.



ok i was just putting it up there as a possibility. If there were accountants in this game it would be so much easier ...... see this is why i was saying that we should all pay the same amount because then no one can be dishonest about how much they have earned if we just set an amount we could run it as a test for like 1 or 2 weeks and then balance according to how much profit everyone has left because we will probably need to do some balancing anyway i suppose just as the devs need to do balancing in the beta testing

Zendjir
01-14-2003, 10:39 AM
Well Helmet is our Bank manager... and he will look into the thing of who payes his tribute.

Ok Lord Helmet....let us know how you want to do it. And Wraith...he doesnt decide it 100%, we are associates, not a dictatorship. ;)

swediot=)
01-15-2003, 01:38 AM
well thats what i was saying its good to have democracy we knew at the start that everyone wouldnt agree about everything but as long as everyones voice gets heard i think we will be very successful as a pa because we will build a very trustworthy and an understanding environment just to let you know i will be wookie and like han solo said the wookie will rip your lims off if he doesnt win:D :D

Zendjir
01-19-2003, 08:54 AM
I think Í'll "let the wookie win", I agree with you Swediot, Democracy is the way.

Therefore, it seems odd that lord helmet has not spoken yet.....where is he?

setsuko
01-19-2003, 12:37 PM
Ha! I'm about to commit the cardinal crime #1: posting in a discussion without having the time to read all prior posts. Oh well. Moahahahaa!

Q:What is most important when thinking out a fair taxation?

A: Realizing that all occupations won't have the same possibilities to earn cash. Who will have the easier time? Dunno, haven't played the game yet.

Q: How high will the percentage be?

A: Depends on one thing mostly: what are the money collected supposed to contribute to? Think about that for a while, and it should be easier to figure out. If we want to have communal houses, equipment and even ships, then we need a lot of money. Which means higher taxes. Advantages: we will all have access to a lot of neat things. Disadvantages: you won't have money left for the cinema.

Q: But what about if someone cheats, and doesn't pay properly?

A: Then the rest of us are screwed. It is easy enough in the real world, and a cakewalk in a world without the IRS. Live with it.

Q: Shouldn't everyone pay the same percentage?

A: I'd say no. A beginner needs more resources, because he/she has a harder time gaining new resources. However, a really rich person can easily tire of a PA if he/she has to pay 80% of their profit. Now HERE is what I propose (and sort of the point of this rant):

Rich and/or influential players shouldn't necessarily pay a sum of creds . Oh no! But then the poor players has to pay for everything, right? No. The rich and influential players get responsibilities. For example, if I became a wealthy player, the PA could ask me to stop paying taxes, and instead make sure that I supply new members with basic equipment. Or that I am responsible for building and maintaining a store facility to all members. Or that I arrange interstellar travel for members. This could either replace taxes entirely, or substitute parts of the payment. It would also be a good alternative for occupations that have a hard time earning cash, but who can perform valuable duties.

Ouch. Too long post. Anyway, am I only rambling, or is parts of it reasonable?

Lord Helmet
01-19-2003, 02:27 PM
wow setsuko when did you come back??? anyways good to see ya

Jan Gaarni
01-19-2003, 07:26 PM
Ha! I'm about to commit the cardinal crime #1: posting in a discussion without having the time to read all prior posts. Oh well. Moahahahaa!
Yes, you're a bad girl. :D

Ouch. Too long post. Anyway, am I only rambling, or is parts of it reasonable?
It's 12.30 am now, so I don't know. ;)

setsuko
01-21-2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Lord Helmet
wow setsuko when did you come back??? anyways good to see ya

Hm. I am sort of semi-back. From like, last week. After this week, I might be back fo' real.

Wraith 8
01-27-2003, 04:34 PM
*views results*

Hmmmm... this will be a discussion for later on.... this thread will stay stickied in case old members decide to poke their heads in here.

Wraith 8
01-27-2003, 04:35 PM
oops... double post

setsuko
01-27-2003, 04:52 PM
A wise decision, Wraith. I think the financial decision should be made after we have at least a bit of experience of the game. After that, we'll know how money will be made (i.e who will get money easy and who won't), and how much money our PA will need to run smoothly.

Zendjir
01-28-2003, 04:41 PM
Yeah, maybe it's best to let it rest (yay! that rimed! (sp?))

Maybe we should focus more on things that we can arrange pre-game (now). Like some basic rules for =A=.

Wraith 8
01-29-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Zendjir
Yeah, maybe it's best to let it rest (yay! that rimed! (sp?))

Maybe we should focus more on things that we can arrange pre-game (now). Like some basic rules for =A=. All ready working on it :D

Lord Helmet
02-02-2003, 10:31 PM
zenjdir...the spelling is rhymed :P

Zendjir
02-04-2003, 10:29 AM
I'm learning something everyday here :)

Wraith 8
02-04-2003, 02:38 PM
hey.. dont bad mouth the dutch in here Helmet :p

Gaalgoth
02-05-2003, 11:33 PM
I'll tell you what lackeys....scratch the whole bank idea and just give your money to me.

Lord Helmet
02-06-2003, 04:05 PM
yea...and me!...err um..yea..

arguile
02-16-2003, 10:01 PM
i just spent about thirty minutes putting in an eloquent reply, then the reply thingy asked me to log in for the third time, then it said i didnt specify a link and lost my AWESOME reply.

now im frustrated and youll never know what i was gonna say

Lord Helmet
02-16-2003, 10:23 PM
try it agian...im really bored and want to hear your wonderful post! TRY goddman you TRY!

swediot=)
02-17-2003, 03:38 AM
no dont give into the darkside

arguile
02-17-2003, 09:14 PM
ok ill give it one more shot.

your plight amounts to the simple and age old question of which is better: capitalism or communism. on one end of the extreme you have capitalism where the gov't (in this case the chosen leaders of the various sections of the PA) has a very limited amount of control, thus, to get the benefits of the gov't, one only has to pay a percentage on ones total assets. on the other end of the spectrum youll have communism, where the success of one member of the PA amounts to the success of the entire PA.

now, to relate this to SWG let's take a look at some historical gov't forms of taxing/instituted economic systems:

first off you have the articles of confederation which loosely allied the 13 original colonies. in this system, the gov't relied solely on the donations of states. this system resembles one of the methods for payment to the PA bank account suggested in a previous reply. clearly this system would fail again, simply because no one is realistically going to pay their profits out of the goodness of their hearts.

secondly, you could look at "communist" Russia under joseph stalin. this system was not actually communism ,however, in reality it was a system known as totalitarianism. through violent practices the masses were controlled by gov't military police. though brutal, these tactics produced staggering results. the soviet union finally had an induced industrial revolution and its productivity increased 25% in a mere five years. now, this system would represent option one given by wraith: pay every cent you make to the PA. of course, i doubt anyone here wants to be ruled by one person, greg g in particular.

now, since ultimately these first two options must be rejected, the only real option left is capitalism. keep in mind that the cities with the highest standard of living are the ones with the lowest amount of red tape. hong kong specifically is arguably the fastest growing city in the world, largely due to the ease with which entrepreneurs can start businesses. in SWG terms, that means the more rules you make and the more complicated you make your systems the harder it will be for your current and prospective members. to be more specific, you should run your system like a simple business. your members should pool ther money as they see fit, which is essentially their donation. however, when you reap your rewards, you should pay back a percentage based on the amount donated. thus, if someone risks more and donates more, that person would make a higher profit. basically, you would get your own little stock system going.

...or you could make a simple flat tax, but there would be no way to moniter that as opposed to an investment system where records would be easier to keep...and what would be the fun in a flat tax? theres no hard math there....

if you made it this far youre my hero for listening to my history/economics lesson. next time i will talk about new members as "investments."

swediot=)
02-17-2003, 10:55 PM
i said dont turn to the darkside and what do you do? you walk straight in and sit in its lap

setsuko
02-18-2003, 07:29 AM
That was a long post, yes, Arguille, but I have to point some things out about communism:

First, Stalinism is sort of out of the picture, yes. Noone were planning it, perhaps Greg, but noone else! :D And Actually, those times a communist setup does work, is in smaller groups (if you don't count Cuba, which has a litteracy percentage that is way, way above all comparative countries, a health system that puts even sweden to shame, and who sends out far more doctors to Médicins Sans Fronterières than any other country. And all this under strict trade embargos). I've seen quite a few collectives with 5-50 members, working very fine. Why? Because one simple fact: these groups are volountary. Living in a country isn't. This means that everyone in the group cares about each other, and are interested in the groups survival. Also, on an historical note, most early Christian groups (like, 100- 500 AD) worked on the communist model, mostly because it is promoted by the Big J himself. Anyway, that's just a footnote; I'm not that interested in creating such an economical model in SWG, mostly because I don't think everyone's interested in it, and thereby, it's not fair to force it on them. In Real Life though, it's a totally different situation ;).

Recently, I've been thinking of how the Armed Forces could work oiut their tax payment. For instance, it would be possible to have us pay 10 percent of our income from =A= sanctioned raids and hunts to the bank, or something like that. What I mean is that if each group gives an amount proportionally of their numbers to the bank, then how they aquire that money isn't as important, right? And other than that, I think that a simple solution is to go for the idea presented earlier, that a group that has a history of paying a lot can withdraw a lot, and the leader of the group knows who pays a lot (keeping track on this with a paper at your desk is easy), he/she knows who he/she can trust to pay back. Of course, the larger amount, the stricter the rules. For a withdrawal to give a new member a proper starting gear, now that's easy. For setsuko to buy that lyxury yacht.... now, that's easy. All we gotta keep in mind is that these money doesn't exist for the sole purpose of existing, and neither are they paid for the sole reason to piss people off: they are there to help members with financial needs, and to help new members to quickly be a productive member of the =A=. With that in mind, I wouldn't mind to pay a few creds now and then.

Jan Gaarni
02-18-2003, 04:06 PM
if you made it this far youre my hero for listening to my history/economics lesson.
Yay, I'm a hero. :) But am I still a hero even though I didn't understand any of it? :D
j/k. :p

Greg, if you don't hire this guy as your assistant, YOU'RE FIRED!!!!!! :D

About the military branch: If we want them to be as good as they can get, I'm thinking we are gonna have to pay them. :)
At the very least, let them have reduced obligations when it comes to payment, and let their actions and commitment show how they should be rewarded.

Am I rambling nonsence, or does it make sense? ;)

arguile
02-18-2003, 06:16 PM
well, what i said was that totalitarianism wouldnt work, i never said anything about actual communism. on paper, communism is ideal as it consists of all people working together for the good of the whole and each person winding up equal to everyone else (the problem of course comes in when the leaders of this system take 80% of the wealth and leave only 20% for the entire population, which in and of itself is fundamentally not communism). so im not going to argue that communism can work in small groups, as long as no one member is the most powerful and all the individuals are trustworthy enough to share their property.

as for new members as investments, you could make it thusly:
of course new members need their capital to get started easier. so to give them this money , you could give say 1000 creds (maybe twenty to fifty percent of the total amount needed to really get started) and ask for in return, 1100 creds or an equivalent in crafted items or what have you. a ten percent charge on all loans to new members (of course only let out small initial loans to make sure you dont lose too much should something go wrong...) would be a reasonable amount, and avoid any nasty compounding interest. should someone try to make off with the funds, you could send guys like gaalgoth to go and find them to even the score...

hmmm...to pay the armed forces...my idea would be this:
a pay scale based on the best soldier. the one to kill the most enemies would get an allowance of like 2000 (estimated of course) and the soldier to kill the second most would get a hundred less.
basically the idea is to come up with a reward system for doing the soldier duties the best. that way, if one of you is killing everything and maybe one of the others is plundering instead, there would be some sort of balance struck.

setsuko
02-18-2003, 09:08 PM
Hm. Interesting system, Arguille. But if I had to keep track on how many MOBs each of my member has slain in their duties to the =A= in a whole week, I'll go insane. Like, 'cutting pieces of my neighbours mail off with a scissor in the middle of the night, only wearing a beer cap'-insane. It's easier to have the members needing funds to tell me, and then I'll have to consider:

A) If this member is a trusty, regular member of the =A=. That would make it easier to give the player money.

B) How much money the =A= has at the moment. A quick PM to the banker should do this.

C) How much money I have withdrawn for my group lately.

D) How appropriate is it to give money to this member? If he is very rich and has top gear, I migth go for giving the money to an ambitious player who has bad gear.

By thinking these easy things over, I should be able to reach a proper decision. Another great idea would have to have a "PA armoury", wich players could apply equipment instead of paying taxes. This is great both for combatants who finds phat lewt, and crafters. This armoury would be a good way to equip new members, and when you need specialist equipment for a single mission. You could also dump your inferior gear when you find/make a better arm than you have: someone less fortunate might need it.

matt--
02-18-2003, 09:42 PM
setsuko:
how many bankers do we have? If not many, a quick pm could turn into quite a wait.

no phat lewt :(

I love the idea of an armory...I just suggested in another thread that I could provide newer members with combat droids.

swediot=)
02-18-2003, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
Yay, I'm a hero. :) But am I still a hero even though I didn't understand any of it? :D
j/k. :p

Greg, if you don't hire this guy as your assistant, YOU'RE FIRED!!!!!! :D

About the military branch: If we want them to be as good as they can get, I'm thinking we are gonna have to pay them. :)
At the very least, let them have reduced obligations when it comes to payment, and let their actions and commitment show how they should be rewarded.

Am I rambling nonsence, or does it make sense? ;)

all hail jan garni the bringer of low taxes :bow:

arguile
02-19-2003, 12:10 AM
that guy is right about having a long wait with the banker. if there is only one and he isnt on then you wouldnt be able to function right. that armory idea is pretty good since you could potentially control it yourself. however, if your crafters are donating armor and not money you might have a problem. mostly that you wont have hard currency to pay your troops with which will probably be an issue with them. another hump is that if you arent dealing with someone that is "trusted" then it will be an even harder decision for you to decide what to give him or her. your best bet may be a simple allowance program and maybe the equivalent of a signing bonus to get people started.

another option is to play it mercenary style and pay out only for set jobs. that would mean your guys could go out and explore instead of sitting around at the city "protecting." more than likely you would only need more than a few guards for big jobs like mining excursions and goods transports. so really you might consider paying half in advance and half after set amounts based on who youre asking and what job you need done.

matt--
02-24-2003, 04:43 PM
Can we pay taxes in equipment for the use of newbies instead of credits?

Talain
02-28-2003, 04:08 PM
I was thinking along the same sort of lines. Now a smuggler or explorer or other adventuresome type can pay decent taxes because of the high-risk/high-reward style of their profession, but for someone manufacturing things or farming, money is going to be a lot tighter. Instead of setting down tax percentages, set the taxes by profession. A bounty hunter pays x% of each bounty, an explorer pays probably a fee and helps newbies find their way around, a smuggler pays either x% of their profit or x% of their cargo, a manufacturer provides equipment and x% of each sale, a farmer feeds the Associates, etc

setsuko
02-28-2003, 07:57 PM
Having crafters supplying the =A= instead of paying taxes is a good idea. How to make it work ingame is harder, especially when there's a big fat NDA in the way. After all, the taxes are there to make sure that our PA thrives, if we can get all (or most) of the services from within our ranks, we become selfsufficient, a closed economy system. Money is really only needed for the services and equipment that we need yet can't get from within our group. As we grow, the need of taxes diminish. That is, unless we want to build a proper town. Saving up for one house at a time will be faster and way more rewarding than having each player have to save up for a house themselves.

Talain
03-03-2003, 03:53 PM
Yeah, but even that goal might be better achieved with production. For example, not all PAs will have all crafters, and if we can sell them bulk amounts of food/weapons/armor/etc., we could probably make money faster than with taxes. It depends on the specifics of the ingame economy.

By the way, which server are we on again?

Thew Rydur
03-03-2003, 04:11 PM
Starsider, on the east coast.

Zendjir
03-04-2003, 04:40 AM
What about taxes for ppl with multiple professions? Like me; I will become a smuggler/ explorer/ pistoleer. How should taxes be handled for me, and alot of other members with multiple professions?

setsuko
03-04-2003, 05:44 AM
Well, the best thing would be if the person who is affected the most, that is the actual player, gets to decide, yes? So each month/week, I could chose to donate a certain amount, run a PA mission or two, donate some equipment that is on the "PA wishlist" (a list where the members and leaders can post what they need at the moment), or entertain in the bar for two nights etc. You do your duties, or pay hard cash, you get a big fat "approved" stamp, and you're free to go!

Off course, if you know you are offline for the whole week, a quick message to your group leader would let you out of it, though people would become suspicious if someone kept doing this a lot.

Well, for the list, it would propably be made by the group leaders together, hopefully with the help of our clever members (who often comes up with better solutions than ourselves!), and could be updated frequently to make sure the different duties are balanced, and that there's duties for all members. For instance, if one member suddenly learns to cook, we would have to think up a mission or two.

And well, since you can pay your way out of it, there's a way out for those weeks when you just don't feel like doing missions.


Does this sound like a resonable idea?

Zendjir
03-04-2003, 10:14 AM
Sounds ok, im with you.

Thew Rydur
03-04-2003, 06:45 PM
Maybe for the item idea, there could be a quartermaster of something, who takes care of all supplies and that sort of thing.

setsuko
03-04-2003, 07:12 PM
Each group leader should be responsible for keeping an eye on what equipment there is available for the group, and what items are needed. After all, they are the ones who has the most knowledge of the situation in their own groups.

Talain
03-04-2003, 08:54 PM
So that means I'll likely be paying my takes to you then, since weapons would fall under your umbrella.

swediot=)
03-04-2003, 11:04 PM
no i think you should supply the weapons to people who are having trouble getting hold of them like some people who come later and are new or something

Thew Rydur
03-05-2003, 12:34 AM
I think Set means the items would be given to the leaders to distribute to there groups, and therefore new players/members.

Deft Aklin
03-05-2003, 01:46 PM
I am hoping that there will be programmed code fior ease of taxation. i.e. Set tax to specific percentage. Tax is taken off the top of each respective members earned money and depositted directly into the PAs account. In fact, didn't the Devs mention something about this?

(Yes I know I'm invading your private space here, sorry.)

Talain
03-05-2003, 03:49 PM
A flat tax wouldn't be that useful, though. Especially for soemone in a high-expense profession, like myself, we aren't going to make that much money because the market will be fairly filled with crafters. What we can make are massive amounts of equipment.

Lord Helmet
03-05-2003, 07:55 PM
which you sell :)

Talain
03-05-2003, 09:12 PM
Not likely. People only need one blaster, and with the number of crafters around, there won't be that much business for your average weaponsmith unless they work supplying a PA force.

Thew Rydur
03-05-2003, 09:37 PM
I don't think there will be a problem for crafters. First of all, I think most players will have more than one weapon, regardless of how many they need. You will be able to sell your items to NPC
's too. There will be item decay, so crafters will have to keep replenishing the stock. There will also be the constant flood of noobs who are looking for some good player-crafted items.

Lord Helmet
03-17-2003, 08:35 PM
To make it clear. For any fighting profession you need weapons except teras kasi sp? artist. Once you get your weapons and armor, you need polish kits..MANY MANY POLISH KITS. That will probably be done by the PA, for people who can not afford some of their own. the PA's main expenses will NOT benfeit indivual players unless absolutely needed. For example it will help our city buildings (eventually), it will buy Pa vehicles ...i plan to make it rentable or free depending on the situation.

So there will definstealy not a be a flat tax unless we are need for money...we will have a reserve if we need to spend.

There will be a savings account for a PA space ship with exapnsion pack...if anyone was interested in hearing that...a nice one..

Enough with governments..With so many people, we will not have to take away much from anyone to make some mula. Just what we need to get by, and some safety money. So if your making alot of money, and dont need it all, feel free to deposit alot and get some benfeits..

setsuko
03-18-2003, 06:01 AM
Lord Helmet is right.

The PA has been growing like mad since this discussion started, and I fear any sort of tax control would take too much time to make it worth it, considering the amount of people we'd have to check up.

After all, we could have our PA economy based on donations. Then we would simply build our city according to how generous we feel. If you like the idea of a city, then you send Lord Helmet some cash now and then. And, if we really need money urgently, we simply make a fundraiser.

That is also an alternative. You are free to not send a lot of money all the time, though supplying a steady income for the PA will surely give you favour amongs the members.

Feedback?

EDIT:

Of course, members who has donated a lot of money would have more to say about what buildings to make first etc than members who has not contributed.

Sunshine Badass
03-24-2003, 06:16 PM
I would say 20% is fair because whether someone works hard to earn their keep, or someone is incredibly rich, both pay a measly 20% their profit each week. Now this may seem harsh, but the rich have more to contribute and if they give more to The Associates, then that's all the more The Associates can help the underdog to become a contributing member of the PA and donate just as much. Everyone should have a chance and everyone should play by the same rules. At the end or beginning of each week, a report is made by members consisting of what resources are needed. Depending on the severity and trustworthiness of the person, resources may be doled out to those who could use them to boost their business or otherwise make them better contributors to the PA. I know it would be hard for Helmut to keep track of who has borrowed what and who has been squandering the PA's resources and making no advancements to their contributions, but could he not hire out accountants to assist him if it all becomes too much? People he trusts to be honest and people who the PA trusts to be honest? Taxes should be a flat rate for all, but in the interest of moving small businesses forward, we need to spend money to start them off making money, and when they are on their feet, they are making steady contributions to the PA and then smaller, needier business could be focused upon then. I am SURE this would be slow in the beginning, but in the end, would we not have steady incomes that are growing exponentially?

i.e. We can help one person in the start, he starts making income for the PA and we have more money. THEN we can help TWO people get started towards independence from aid, contributing their income and helping even MORE businesses make money. Then we could focus on mass military issues and other expenses. But to start out, the PA needs funding and I believe the way to do that is to aid small business, build profit each week, make steady income untill we can REALLY support ourselves. This PA HAS the intelligence, the orginization, HOPEFULLY the drive, ambition, and means to reach the goal of becoming a formidable PA in the business world. Always start small and work your way up to the Heavens of Badass Industry, so we don't lose it all along the way with hastily made plans, shortsightedness, and overall sense of defeat by some fatal error in something that was overlooked. Test things out, but don't get too attached to one way of doing things. Experiment to see what is MOST effective and rewarding, and The Associates can't be stopped. We are only as effective as we are able to aid one another. I may be wrong in all this rambling... But hell, it sounds damn good to me, bet then again... I amy be a complete idiot. ;)

Please tell me what you all think of this.

Talain
04-04-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by setsuko
Lord Helmet is right.

The PA has been growing like mad since this discussion started, and I fear any sort of tax control would take too much time to make it worth it, considering the amount of people we'd have to check up.

After all, we could have our PA economy based on donations. Then we would simply build our city according to how generous we feel. If you like the idea of a city, then you send Lord Helmet some cash now and then. And, if we really need money urgently, we simply make a fundraiser.

That is also an alternative. You are free to not send a lot of money all the time, though supplying a steady income for the PA will surely give you favour amongs the members.

Feedback?

EDIT:

Of course, members who has donated a lot of money would have more to say about what buildings to make first etc than members who has not contributed.

You've got my vote. Running the PA like a non-profit seems like a good idea. The biggest team players get the most say.

setsuko
04-04-2003, 07:08 PM
As our ol' pal Marx put it: "by each according to their ability, to each according to their needs". The PA funds are there to make our stay in SWG more enjoyable, we are not building a company that has to show of a certain amount of profit to it's stockholders. Simply put, if we want to reap the benefits of a working PA economy, then we'll have to do the dirty work and tithe some of our money into it. We can't both keep the cake and eat it. What we need to find out, though, is how big a cake we're cooking.

Sunshine Badass
04-04-2003, 07:31 PM
Umm... What if we just "clone"the cake? Then would we be rich? Or do we have to take an insurance policy on it? So that after we eat it, we don't have to reclaim it. :D

Mmm, cake.

I say we donate 20% of every cake we bake in SWG to the PA so we NEVER run out of the torta. ;)

setsuko
04-04-2003, 08:03 PM
I can make wicked chocolate cookies instead. Then we will all be rich!

Altus_Thrawn
05-06-2003, 08:55 AM
I voted #6.

It seems fair, but I think we have to wait to see how much things like buildings cost and living expenses before we can really decide.

Ride
05-25-2003, 10:50 PM
Since my idea is not on there, I will throw it out, to see what you all think. I think 10% each week, or 20% every two weeks.

That is the same, but I think it would make a better cash flow for the PA, rather than 20% each month.

-=ReApEr=-
05-25-2003, 10:54 PM
I would pay about 30% a week. :) We should sort it out, once we understand the vaule of money within the game. ;)