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View Full Version : Thoughts that keep me up at night


ET Warrior
01-13-2003, 07:29 PM
I've had two thoughts that have been running through my brain recently due to what we're covering in physics.....and well.....they're just WEIRD. First of all, space, as we know it, does not exist outside of the universe...the universe is expanding, but what is it expanding into? WHAT? And then, there is also no time as we know it that exists outside of the universe......It's all very weird and the more i think about it the less sense it makes.

El Sitherino
01-13-2003, 07:33 PM
i think about that too. and what was there for the universe to be expanding in.

C'jais
01-13-2003, 07:39 PM
As you already said so yourself, the universe itself is space and time.

Asking these questions can be compared to asking a religious person who made his God. It makes no sense, is completely irrelevant and cannot be answered.

Not many people can grasp the concept of eternity. To most, it's just a really, really, really long time.

ET Warrior
01-13-2003, 07:46 PM
Yes, the universe is space and time...but what is outside of the universe? And if you like the big bang theory, then what was surrounding the speck that exploded out into the universe?

Another thing that is REALLY weird is how all speed is relative EXCEPT for the speed of light. If you are on a bus going 75 mph and you throw a ball forward at 40 mph, to you it looks like it's going 40 mph, to a person standing on the side of the road it looks like it's going 115mph, to someone GOING 115 mph it looks motionless, and to someone traveling at you at 75 mph it looks like it's going 190 mph.

But if you are traveling at nearly the speed of light, because traveling AT the speed of light is impossible (or at least we think so) and you turn on the headlights on the front of your spaceship, the light from those lamps will move away from you at the speed of light, and if somebody observing this from a stationary position measured the speed of the light of your headlamps, it would only be moving at the speed of light. And if someone passed you in a spaceship goign the other way at the same speed as you, and they guage the speed that the light from your headlights were headed at them, it would only be moving at the speed of light, and it would not seem to be going any faster.......

C'jais
01-13-2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
Yes, the universe is space and time...but what is outside of the universe? And if you like the big bang theory, then what was surrounding the speck that exploded out into the universe?

I do not "like" the Big Bang theory. It's the currently best model for what happened. Show me one that is more probable, and I'll reconsider.

Now, I'm obviously not qualified to answer this, but "my" big bang theory is slightly different: Whenever a black hole is created, a new universe is born inside the black hole. Universes are branching on each other. There's no need for a beginning or an end. No paradox.

ET Warrior
01-13-2003, 07:58 PM
i didn't so much mean LIKE the big bang theory....i more meant....if you belive in it.....bad wording on my part ;)

I dunno about universes being born inside black holes....because it has been proven that our universe is expanding. And we know that IF black holes do exist, which hasn't been COMPLETELY proven, then they are not that big...and since they are sometimes created in the middle of universes, then to have another universe created in there would be ripping a hole in the universe, and there would be two universes existing in the same place and expanding INTO each other....i hope my post makes sense there..

And there STILL has to be and end to the universe SOMEWHERE, even if they are branching off.

C'jais
01-13-2003, 08:06 PM
ET Warrior: Yeah, I get you. As I said, I really know zip about astronomy, so I'll probably come off as a rambling moron if I try to continue this any further :p

i didn't so much mean LIKE the big bang theory....i more meant....if you belive in it.....bad wording on my part

Hmmph...... "Believe in" doesn't come off much better you know :D :p But hell if I really give a damn about that. I guess intention is where it matters ;)

Reborn Outcast
01-13-2003, 09:39 PM
I think about thigs more down to earth. I am very afraid of having people come into our house at night and if I am the last one to go to bed... I scare the crap outta myself lying in bed and jumping at every noise.

ET Warrior
01-13-2003, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
I think about thigs more down to earth. I am very afraid of having people come into our house at night and if I am the last one to go to bed... I scare the crap outta myself lying in bed and jumping at every noise.

I dont worry so much about things like that.....although my town is only 10,000 people big....;)

Xylan
01-13-2003, 11:17 PM
Interesting, I think about these things alot. Anyone read a book called, Universe in a Nutshell? It relays alot of things, also it explains alot of things about universe so simply that you wouldn't have to get a degree in astrophysics to understand the concepts, I would suggest that some of you guys look at it. But, not if you plan to get a full night's sleep......
;)

Wacky_Baccy
01-14-2003, 09:31 AM
Posted by Xylan
Interesting, I think about these things alot.I am sooooo glad it's not just me - I was beginning to worry... :D
Anyone read a book called, Universe in a Nutshell? It relays alot of things, also it explains alot of things about universe so simply that you wouldn't have to get a degree in astrophysics to understand the concepts, I would suggest that some of you guys look at it.I started reading that one last year, but lost interest in the subject as a whole for various reasons... I read and loved "A Brief History of Time" a few years ago though (understood it, too! :p:D), so I think I'll have to give 'Nutshell' a go again soon...
But, not if you plan to get a full night's sleep......
;)That's so true it's almost not funny :D
Posted by ET Warrior
Yes, the universe is space and time...but what is outside of the universe?There is no 'outside' - the universe creates the space we exist in as it expands... I'm sorry I can't explain it any better than that :(
And if you like the big bang theory, then what was surrounding the speck that exploded out into the universe?Nothing. At least, not matter as we understand it... I don't really know enough about the theories concerned with this to say anything credible, but my own opinion from what I've read and assimilated is that it was pure energy... I need to do a lot of serious thinking on this subject...
Another thing that is REALLY weird is how all speed is relative EXCEPT for the speed of light. If you are on a bus going 75 mph and you throw a ball forward at 40 mph, to you it looks like it's going 40 mph, to a person standing on the side of the road it looks like it's going 115mph, to someone GOING 115 mph it looks motionless, and to someone traveling at you at 75 mph it looks like it's going 190 mph.Fun, isn't it? :D
But if you are traveling at nearly the speed of light, because traveling AT the speed of light is impossible (or at least we think so) and you turn on the headlights on the front of your spaceship, the light from those lamps will move away from you at the speed of light, and if somebody observing this from a stationary position measured the speed of the light of your headlamps, it would only be moving at the speed of light.Correct - I've always particularly been fond of that one :D

I even understood it for a few seconds once...
And if someone passed you in a spaceship going the other way at the same speed as you, and they gauge the speed that the light from your headlights were headed at them, it would only be moving at the speed of light, and it would not seem to be going any faster...Isn't it just wonderfully mind-boggling? :D

I've always been interested in this sort of thing, and reading/replying to this thread has re-awoken my passion for it... I thank you all for that :)

*goes to dig out all the books he meant to read last year on the subject*

Wacky_Baccy
01-14-2003, 09:33 AM
Also posted by ET Warrior
i didn't so much mean LIKE the big bang theory....i more meant....if you belive in it.....bad wording on my part ;)

I dunno about universes being born inside black holes....because it has been proven that our universe is expanding. And we know that IF black holes do exist, which hasn't been COMPLETELY proven, then they are not that big...You have a funny definition of "big" :p

It's at least thought that there are black holes at the centres of almost all galaxies... And bloody HUGE ones, too... Of course, this could conceivably have been proven false since I last read up on it... :animelol:
and since they are sometimes created in the middle of universes, "Sometimes" created in the middle of universes...? :confused:

I thought that all the ones we believe to exist were created in this universe...
...then to have another universe created in there would be ripping a hole in the universe, and there would be two universes existing in the same place and expanding INTO each other....i hope my post makes sense there..Vaguely :D

And there wouldn't necessarily be a 'hole' between the two universes - they could co-exist in the same space, without interacting with each other in any way... :)
And there STILL has to be and end to the universe SOMEWHERE, even if they are branching off. Not necessarily ;)

Ya know, a worrying amount of random thoughts about mathematics being at the heart of everything and fractals having a lot to do with the creation/development of the universe(s) are flying through my mind right now... I think I'm going to have to expend ridiculous amounts of effort trying to understand even what I'm trying to get at, let alone others... :confused: :(

ET Warrior
01-14-2003, 01:08 PM
mmm, i was meaning big on a galactic scale. Those black hole aren't big enough to contain an entire universe unless you ascribe to the Men in Black theories..........which i dont.

I know what you are saying when you say there is nothing outside of the universe, which is the thing that i'm getting at. THAT is what keeps me up at night. NOTHING is past the universe, yet what are we expanding into? It's not something.....it's NOTHING....and that's just amazingly weird. There is an infinite expanse of nothing outside of our universe..but say someone were to travel INTO the nothing...there would be no space and no time there........weird weird weird

I even understood it for a few seconds once...
:D I know what you mean by that....there have been multiple instances in my life where I've been thinking about things like this when suddenly everything is so clear and makes perfect sense....and then the next moment it's gone and i have no idea what i just realized.....:D

Wacky_Baccy
01-15-2003, 10:24 AM
Posted by ET Warrior
mmm, i was meaning big on a galactic scale.
Ahh... Okay then ^_^

Those black hole aren't big enough to contain an entire universe unless you ascribe to the Men in Black theories..........which i dont.Neither do I :p

I think you've missed the point - the theory was that black holes create new universes, but that those universes cannot interact with this one... I think :D

I know what you are saying when you say there is nothing outside of the universe, which is the thing that i'm getting at. THAT is what keeps me up at night. NOTHING is past the universe, yet what are we expanding into? It's not something.....it's NOTHING....and that's just amazingly weird.I know - it's fantastic :D

There is an infinite expanse of nothing outside of our universe..There is no 'outside', though ;)

...but say someone were to travel INTO the nothing...there would be no space and no time there........weird weird weirdYou couldn't travel into the 'nothing' without automatically creating a 'something' to exist in... Wonderful stuff, isn't it? :D

:D I know what you mean by that....there have been multiple instances in my life where I've been thinking about things like this when suddenly everything is so clear and makes perfect sense....and then the next moment it's gone and i have no idea what i just realized.....:D I know... So wonderful, yet so phenominally frustrating afterwards :( :D

It makes me wonder if I should start seriously looking into meditation to try to gain a bit more control over those "moments of clarity"... Hmmmz...

(Jais is peeved with me anyway, so I may as well add 'going off on a tangent' to his list of "things to kill Wacky for" :D)

C'jais
01-15-2003, 10:33 AM
Wacky is right. The whole notion of expanding into something is wrong. We are not expanding into anything, we are just stretching reality, so to speak.

And no, none of you are going off a tangent here.





Damn I'm tired today.... I wonder what kept me up all night....

Wacky_Baccy
01-15-2003, 10:50 AM
Going back to one of your earlier posts Jais, where did you get the idea about universes being created inside black holes? I'm curious to know if that was from a scientific source that I can research myself, or if it was just your personal view :D
Posted by Cjais
Wacky is right. The whole notion of expanding into something is wrong. We are not expanding into anything, we are just stretching reality, so to speak.It doesn't make it any less mind-boggling and fascinating though, does it? :D
And no, none of you are going off a tangent here.Awww... Tangents are good - they lead to new threads :D
Damn I'm tired today.... I wonder what kept me up all night....Yes, well... It was your own fault for ever posting the thing in the first place :p

But I am truly sorry for hounding you like I did last night... I was too tired to think straight, and once I get started on something I tend to stick with it to the bitter end when I'm tired... Sorry, Jais :(

Jedi wannabe
01-15-2003, 03:38 PM
What if the universe is 'expanding' into itself so: you got to the edge and you reapper at the opposite side, like pac man.

it's like
|-------A--------|
|______________|
|_____.________|
|______________|
|-------B--------|

so you start at the dot in the middle you travel to A and keep going, you think you are still going but you are actuall now at B and eventually you will go to where you started from, like a gigantic circle.

edit:had to use underscores because spaces did not work.
should be easy to understand.

griff38
01-15-2003, 06:41 PM
Wacky is right. The whole notion of expanding into something is wrong. We are not expanding into anything, we are just stretching reality, so to speak.


You see, thinking about the universe expanding into something comes from you a ego centered (not flamming we all are ego centered) lifeform seeing the universe through your eyes. Everything you or anybody else has ever seen expand, expanded into something. So naturally thats how you first think of it. Keep thinking about it and you will get it. Destroy the self,ego when in thought.

But what Jedi wannabe says about it expanding into itself is a good 1 too.


Heres one for you.

What is time? Time is the measurement of movement. Which movement? The movement of the expanding universe. Everytime you look at your watch you are seeing the universe expand.

ET Warrior
01-15-2003, 06:53 PM
I dont think that time is a measurement of the universe expanding, because time is not constant for everything. If I were to travel at relativistic speeds then maybe an hour would pass for me while people lost years of their life.....so according to the motions of MY watch the universe barely expanded at all, but according to everyone ELSE the universe expanded a LOT.
It doesn't make it any less mind-boggling and fascinating though, does it?
In fact it makes it MORE mind-boggling if you think that we are expanding, but we're not expanding into anything,

griff38
01-15-2003, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
I dont think that time is a measurement of the universe expanding, because time is not constant for everything. If I were to travel at relativistic speeds then maybe an hour would pass for me while people lost years of their life.....so according to the motions of MY watch the universe barely expanded at all, but according to everyone ELSE the universe expanded a LOT.

In fact it makes it MORE mind-boggling if you think that we are expanding, but we're not expanding into anything,


OK I agree it's not constant, but if two obververs share an experience but have different interpretations they can both still correct. Relativity?. The Universe is not expanding uniformly I believe.

But I really like the "we are expanding" thingy.