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Luc Solar
01-14-2003, 06:54 AM
Christianity differs from other major religions quite a bit.

When you walk around the streets you don't see anything religious. Go to Islamic or Hindu countries and you see the difference. There everything is controlled by religion: what you wear, where you can go and with whom, what you're allowed to do and when/with whom/where, what you can eat, what you can say etc. etc. etc.

Can christianity even be considered a religion anymore? Am I Christian? I suppose so, technically anyway. I'm Evangelical Lutheran (sp?).

Does religion play any part in my life? Sometimes, I guess. I pray every night, but mumbling through the same litany without even thinking can hardly be considered as praying.

When do Christians pray? I'd say never except if they are in trouble, except if something really bad is about to happen. We pray only when we are scared and need something.

Are most Christians hypocrites? I believe so.

What about the Bible? Do you live by it? Do you believe every word it says or only the convenient parts? Does the Bible form you morals or do you simply use it to back up you opinions when it serves your purposes?

Do you Christians even believe in the Biblical God? Was Jesus his son? Was Maria conceived through the wholy spirit? Does the communion-wine turn into Jesus' blood?

Do you think you must agree with the Bible in order to be a real Christian? Can you be a good person even if you are not a Christian and if so, why would we even need the Bible?

El Sitherino
01-14-2003, 07:02 AM
are you asking us what we say about you or about ourselves?

Luc Solar
01-14-2003, 07:08 AM
Ummm.. I already voted, so you don't need to wonder what I'm all about. :)

The question was directed at everyone. Are *you* a true christian or not?

...or just general dicussion on the subject.

El Sitherino
01-14-2003, 07:11 AM
I'm Buddhist. so i said im not even pretending to be christian.

C'jais
01-14-2003, 11:19 AM
I'm glad my parents didn't Christen/baptize me. Otherwise I would have been officially "Christian" by now.

In our modern society, there are two ways to become Christian:

You parents pass on the tradition. Brainwash, no matter how well intentioned it is. You get no choice in accepting the customs and rituals as real facts. Belief in God becomes a natural thing, senseless and pointless to question. Praying becomes an automated process with no active belief needed.

The other way is done by dying people on their deathbed, who seeks a way to prove that their life wasn't completely meaningless.

How many pick up Jesus in the middle of their lives without haven been presented to him as childs? None that I know of. If it was outlawed for parents to pass on their customs, the world would be secularized in no time.

In real life, I have never ever met a religious young person. Only on the internet.

Wacky_Baccy
01-14-2003, 11:37 AM
Posted by Cjais
I'm glad my parents didn't Christen/baptize me. Otherwise I would have been officially "Christian" by now.I'm eternally thankful to my parents for the same reason.

When I was five or six, however, I felt like an outsider because so many of my friends had either been Christened or Baptised... I'm unbelievably glad I didn't give in to the subtle pressure that was there.
In our modern society, there are two ways to become Christian:

You parents pass on the tradition. Brainwash, no matter how well intentioned it is. You get no choice in accepting the customs and rituals as real facts. Belief in God becomes a natural thing, senseless and pointless to question. Praying becomes an automated process with no active belief needed.I'm actually working on a thread right now about that... It might take me quite a while to post it though, as I'm still gathering sources and info... :(
The other way is done by dying people on their deathbed, who seeks a way to prove that their life wasn't completely meaningless.

How many pick up Jesus in the middle of their lives without haven been presented to him as childs?A few, but they tend to have been inducted into groups at vulnerable times in their lives... I saw a fairly impartial documentary about it a little while ago... It wasn't pleasent viewing, I can tell you, but it did vastly broaden my understading of several things.
If it was outlawed for parents to pass on their customs, the world would be secularized in no time.That would be fantastic, IMO... It'll never happen on a wide scale, though :(
In real life, I have never ever met a religious young person. Only on the internet. Same here... Odd really.


*edit*

And turn off invisible, dammit, Jais! :p :D

obi
01-14-2003, 06:21 PM
I am a christian, and I strongly believe in Christian ethics. That includes not insulting others for what they believe.

C'jais
01-14-2003, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
I am a christian, and I strongly believe in Christian ethics. That includes not insulting others for what they believe.

Sorry Obi, I was thinking aloud. I meant what I said though, I truly do believe that there aren't any other real ways to become Christian these days. That's just how it has always seemed to me, here in heathen Denmark. Over here, anyone who calls himself a Christian has probably never prayed, read the Bible or gone to church apart from the usual ceremonies. Not kidding. They simply believe there's a higher power and leave it at that.

But hey, if it's different conditions over there, I'll gladly listen.

Rogue_Ace
01-14-2003, 08:52 PM
Are most Christians hypocrites? I believe so.

Sadly some Christians are hypocrities. But not as many as you may think. The problem is that people only notice when a Christian is doing something bad. But we as Christians make mistakes too, or else there would be no need for Christ or the Cross. But again I know that there are a lot of Christian hypocrites out there.

Am I Christian? I suppose so, technically anyway.

Respectfully I dont think that anyone can "technically" be a Christian. Either you are or you aren't, period. Its a matter of the heart.

I pray every night, but mumbling through the same litany without even thinking can hardly be considered as praying.

Your right; prayer comes from the heart. If you are just paying lip service to God then in my opinion you should stop wasting your time. You should pray to God because you want to.

When do Christians pray? I'd say never except if they are in trouble, except if something really bad is about to happen. We pray only when we are scared and need something.

:rolleyes: Sadly thats ture a lot of the time. We as Christians have this great tool with which we can speak directly to God and we sometimes forget it is there. :)

What about the Bible? Do you live by it? Do you believe every word it says or only the convenient parts?

Yes. In my opinion, and according to the Bible, every word in it is true. Even the parts we dont like :). No one ever said that life as a Christian is a "bed of roses." But I would not have it any other way.

Do you Christians even believe in the Biblical God? Was Jesus his son?

How can you be a Christian and not believe in the Bible. Its not possible.
Yes Christ was Gods Son and it was a virgin birth.

Does the communion-wine turn into Jesus' blood?

That was and still is a big argument in the church today. In my opinion it is just a symbol of the blood Jesus shed not the actual thing.

Can you be a good person even if you are not a Christian

Anyone can be a good person. But as a Christian you definitely need to be a good person, there is not question about it.


Now after all that :D I want to say that these are just my beliefs and if you believe something different I respect that.

obi
01-14-2003, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by Rogue_Ace

Now after all that :D I want to say that these are just my beliefs and if you believe something different I respect that.

They are not just your beliefs, but they are mine as well. ;) In fact, I cannot think of a better way to say it.

When I talk to people about Christ, some give me a dirty look, or even threaten me. I care not what they think, for I am not trying to please them. The only one I am trying to please is God, and if someone else doesn't like it, well, that is their problem. ;)

Jedi_Monk
01-14-2003, 09:32 PM
You parents pass on the tradition. Brainwash, no matter how well intentioned it is. You get no choice in accepting the customs and rituals as real facts. Belief in God becomes a natural thing, senseless and pointless to question. Praying becomes an automated process with no active belief needed.
No matter that you were baptised at birth, that your parents have raised you on the traditions--there will always come a point in everyone's life when they must decide what they truly believe. I reached that point, and I decided I do believe in the traditions passed on to me, but not every Christian-rased person does--far from it.

How many pick up Jesus in the middle of their lives without haven been presented to him as childs? None that I know of. If it was outlawed for parents to pass on their customs, the world would be secularized in no time.
Every Easter, thousands of adults are innitiated into the Catholic Church. There's not an Easter Vigil service I've been to where there weren't at least a half-dozen people being innitiated. The majority are probably protestant converts, but there are many from non-Christian lifestyles who have decided to join the Church. And if the passage of traditions from parent to child were outlawed, it would hardly be a free society.

In real life, I have never ever met a religious young person. Only on the internet.
I go to youth group every Sunday, and am surrounded by very devout teenagers.

As for me, I follow the New Testament and the Dogma of the Church (and, yes, I believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist). The Old Testament is a history of our faith, which stemmed out of Judaism, and a record of prophesies of the Messiah. But the New Testament supercedes the old for Christians, which is why the Church is against the death penalty, when it was allowed under the Old Covenant. I pray every day, morning prayers and the Chaplat of Divine Mercy (a variation of the Rosary), and I also pray for strength whenever temptation creeps into my mind. I go to Church every Sunday and every Holy Day and it's not a chore for me. I go to youth group after Mass and help run it as well. The Church and religious life takes up a good portion of my life.

Darth Groovy
01-14-2003, 10:51 PM
I do not question my own faith, but I am having some troubles on my walk. I recently got engaged and then she decided to changer her mind in a week's span. I am kind of lost now, and I do have a serious disposition with churches as a whole.

Rogue_Ace
01-14-2003, 11:03 PM
I do not question my own faith, but I am having some troubles on my walk. I recently got engaged and then she decided to changer her mind in a week's span. I am kind of lost now, and I do have a serious disposition with churches as a whole.

Wow that sucks :( . It sounds like you are a believer so you have this before but I'll say it anyway. Everything happens for a reason and although you may not see it now i'm sure that God will reveal it to you in the future. I know that those words are not really that comforting but thats life, it goes on even through the suckey(is that even a word:D ) parts. I know other Christians have felt the same way you do. I have. But looking back on those bad times I'm glad they happened, I learned valuable lessons. So understand that God had a good reason for letting that happen to you even though you may not see it now.:)

Rogue15
01-15-2003, 12:30 AM
I believe in Jesus, and stick w/the morals that are taught in the Bible. I prefer to let my actions speak louder than words when it comes to the 'preaching the gospel' part.

Taos
01-15-2003, 03:31 AM
Now when I was younger, around 8 I think. I was baptised into a methodist church. [I think that's christian *shrugs*]

Obviously, I don't practice it much.....I do think that most christians are hypocrites. I'd go into detail but I'm way too tired and I should be in bed. :o

Luc Solar
01-15-2003, 04:11 AM
I do thinks I can be a Christian without believing every word the Bible says.

The Old Testament is horrible. It is barbaric, cruel, prejudiced. The Old Testament is a symbol for the very opposite of what *my* God and *my* faith represents.

The Old Testament symbolises the sort of religion that is the root of all evil.

* waiting for a bolt of lightning to strike me down *

Okay. Phew!

If you look at the Talebans or other highly religious communities, you see what I'm, talking about.
"Only WE are righteous, everyone else is an abomination to GOD and must be punished/destroyed! Women are but dogs, breeding machines trying to entice our holy Men into acts of sin! Women must never show their faces or walk in public without their husband or brother and when they sit in their room, they are not allowed to open any windows! If a woman opens the window and seduced a man to do sinful acts with her (=gets raped), the Husband must slaughter her immediately in order to maintain the honour of his family."

Hmmm.. enough about that.

The new Testament is a whole different story however. It's a great book with lots of info that is still useful. I just don't think that one should take it literally. An example:

The bible says: No sex before marriage.

What *I* think the bible says here is this:

1) Do not screw around because that may cause emotinal distress to your partner, if you both are not in for it solely for the "fun".

2) Do not screw around because having sex with multiple partners upps the chance of getting or forwarding STD 's.

3) Do not screw around because it might lead to the woman getting pregnant, which leads to a lot of problems.

4) Sex is meant to be a beautiful thing. Only have sex with people you care about, with people you love.

5) Always use protection to protect you and your partner from STD's and unwanted pregnancies.

6) Have childres only at the point when you are both ready for it. The good of the child is your first priority.


But instead the Bible says: "No sex before marriage period"

Times have changed. The point is still valid, but it needs to be interpreted differently now that things have changed (contraceptives etc.).

My god is not the god of Israel or the god of Christians. Simply the fact that we have so many religions in the world proves in a way the fact that none of us is right.
Is the true God an alien race or just a blob somewhere beyond our universe? I don't know. But what I do know is that no damn god takes every drop of community wine and changes it to the blood of a person who allegedly lived some 2000 years ago.
Neither do I believe that God really wants me to bend over and mumble some mantras 5 times per day or else I face his horrble wrath. God must have better things to do.

Perhaps God has given us guidelines, codes that we should strive to live by. But ATM a certain code is passť. It can not be taken literally anymore. That is my opinion.

Religion is the root of all evil in the hands of men. How many wars have we fought that would have been prevented if no religion existed? How much hate and suffering would disappear this day if suddenly the whole world would turn Buddhist?

Think about it.

Rogue_Ace
01-15-2003, 04:22 PM
The Old Testament is horrible. It is barbaric, cruel, prejudiced. The Old Testament is a symbol for the very opposite of what *my* God and *my* faith represents.

I dont think that the Old Testament is horrible at all, have you ever read Psalms. Psalms contains some of the most beautify poetry ever written.

You say that it (OT) is cruel and barbaric, so you are saying that God is cruel and barbaric, not true. The OT is the history of the Jewish people and when you read it you can see that they screw up a lot , yet this cruel and barbaric God does not blast them from the face of the earth like they deserved. Yes He did punish them severly, but when they came back to Him and asked his forgivness.

Yes New Testament Law supersedes that of the OT but that does not mean that we should throw all of its teachings out the window. It is still the Bible, the Word of God and it should be followed. The reason that we are not "struck down by a bolt of lightening:)" is because we now have Christ intervening on our behalf.

If you look at the Talebans or other highly religious communities, you see what I'm, talking about.

Very true. But those communities do not represent the Christian Community, in fact they are the exact opposite.

I know what you are going to say, to just look at the Jews and all the crap that is happening over in Israel at this time. But the Jews are not Christians, they only believe in the OT, they do not believe that Christ was their Savior. They expected that the King would come and fight all their wars for them and make them the supreme rulers of all the word; what they got was a carpender. I dont even consider most Catholics to be Christians, most of them are just "sunday Christians" and go to church for what they believe is "fire insurance," they dont want to go to hell so they figure that good works and going to chruch once a week will ensure them a place in Heavan.

But instead the Bible says: "No sex before marriage periodTimes have changed. The point is still valid, but it needs to be interpreted differently now that things have changed (contraceptives etc.). "

Yes is does and that still stands for today, and not just in the OT. When you start to take the Bible as partially true then you are destroying the whole concept of it. You start to take only the parts that are fun and lovey and get rid of the rest. Whats the point of believing only certian parts that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.


Solar I hope that you dont think that I am singleing you out, you are making some great points that I think I can help add perspective to. So no hard feelings right?:D

Mandalorian54
01-15-2003, 06:09 PM
Yes I am a christian.

I am a Baptist to be exact.

and I don't beleive you should be baptized as a child because you are supposed to be baptized as a public statment that you have faith and want to be a christian. When your a baby you don't have faith you dont even know you exist yet. How many of you remember being baptized? You only know your baptized because you were told.

I strongly believe in the doctrins of grace.
I am against abortion, infant baptism,and women preachers.

I don't believe in speaking in toungs, or a secret rapture. I believe in a very loud and public rapture.

Catholics,and Jehovah witnesses are not christians even though they call themselves christians.

And Christianity is not a religeon its a faith!

And duh you have to believe in the Bible to be a christian, thats like saying I don't believe in Christ but I'm a Christian. not believing in the Bible and still praying and stuff is like saying your an ian with no Christ on the begining.

Maverick Knight
01-15-2003, 06:31 PM
No one should be 'brainwashed', as you put it. No one should follow a religion just because their parents did. No one should 'just believe.' Likewise, no one should discount a belief system because of a bad circumstance (i.e. believing that God is evil because you lost your job.) No one should be afraid of asking questions about religion out of fear of punishment. If you can't ask questions and get logical answers, it's not worth believing in. Everyone should be able to back up their beliefs with arguments. Otherwise, it's not worth believing in.

Now, I have found that Christianity is the only belief system (philosophical, theological, and otherwise) that is able to answer my questions adequately. And yes, there was a time when I doubted the religion, but it was because I was able to get thorough and logical answers that I stayed with it.

The Testaments:
The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies. They go together, and can't be taken seperately. Some of the laws and regulations in the OT were negated by Jesus' words in the NT, and that was because Jesus changed the way man related to God. The OT isn't wrong, per se, it's just the other half of the story; just the way past history is the other half of what is going on in the world today with these international conflicts and whatnot.
And about that 'no sex before marriage' thing: it's still valid. Just because we can do it more safely than in their times doesn't mean that we should. Sex is a precious thing, a sign of commitment to a partner, not just a 'good time.' After sex, what is the most intimate thing a couple can share? Answer: not much.

Hypocrisy:
Sadly there are hypocritical Christians, and they often get most of the publicity. But that is only because they are humans, and humans are flawed. If we weren't flawed, we wouldn't need God. If anyone says they are perfect, it's a sure sign that they aren't.

Summary:
Don't judge Christianity or any other religion by the people who practise it. Judge it by what it says at its core and how well it applies to the real world.

(Whew, sorry about all that...)

Rogue_Ace
01-15-2003, 06:57 PM
And Christianity is not a religeon its a faith!

Right on man!!!:D

Try this one: Christianity is not a religeon its a relationship. :)

The OT isn't wrong, per se, it's just the other half of the story; just the way past history is the other half of what is going on in the world today with these international conflicts and whatnot.

Exactly

C'jais
01-15-2003, 07:02 PM
While I generally don't concern myself with Christian beliefs, I must speak aloud now:

Catholics are just as much Christian as you are. No less. They believe in Christ and the Bibler, ergo the are Christians. This cannot be debated, or you'll have to pervert the current language.

Christianity is a religion. I don't know where you got this from, M54, but the idea of it not being a religion is absurd.

The Old Testament is barbaric. God kills women, kids and innocent people. He is outright violating his preachings in the New Testament. And it contains the worst hogwash known to date - the Genesis. This alone should be reason enough to disregard it completely as nonsense.

And Luc is doing the right thing. Interpreting the Bible for himself. If you acknowledge the fact that there are metaphors in the Bible, he isn't doing anything wrong at all. He is not picking the bits he like - he's trying to fold an outdated text to fit modern problems. It can't be done by assuming that everything in the Bible is literal truth. It has already been proven false on far too many accounts.

And our church would behave the same way today if the western world hadn't got secularized at the end of the dark ages. Society put a gun to the church's head, and it was forced to comply. This has not happened in the middle east, as their conditions now equal those of the dark ages. Yes, the Christian church once did the exact same executions and bloody rituals.

Rogue_Ace
01-15-2003, 07:32 PM
Catholics are just as much Christian as you are. No less. They believe in Christ and the Bibler, ergo the are Christians. This cannot be debated, or you'll have to pervert the current language.

I didn't say all Catholics I said some . Those who just go to church and the second they leave they become a different person. That really ticks me off because its them that give Christians as a whole a bad name. Do people usually notice when a Christian is doing something good? Almost never unless they are getting money. But like I said earlier the second a Christian does something bad everyone points a finger at h/s.

Also in my opinion the Catholic church has perverted the faith beyond belief. They do believe in Jesus and the Bible but thats not the only thing they believe in. They think that the pope is holy, no way. The only person to be Holy was Jesus. The Catholic church has strayed from the original rule book, the Bible and made up their own rule books, that they put just as much value on. Wrong the supreme law is the Bible, period. That was one of the reasons for the Reformation. Luther and other saw the corruption that existed in the church and realised that it was no longer following God, thus the Protestant church.

Christianity is a religion. I don't know where you got this from, M54, but the idea of it not being a religion is absurd.

Its a relationship with Christ as a personal Savior.

And Luc is doing the right thing. Interpreting the Bible for himself. If you acknowledge the fact that there are metaphors in the Bible, he isn't doing anything wrong at all. He is not picking the bits he like - he's trying to fold an outdated text to fit modern problems. It can't be done by assuming that everything in the Bible is literal truth. It has already been proven false on far too many accounts.

I never said that interpreting the scripture was wrong. Yes we can look at the Bible and compare it to modern things. But we cannot twist it around until it makes us happy and says what we want it to say.

The Old Testament is barbaric. God kills women, kids and innocent people. He is outright violating his preachings in the New Testament. And it contains the worst hogwash known to date - the Genesis. This alone should be reason enough to disregard it completely as nonsense.

Technically no one is innocent. We all deserve what we get, we are sinners, no one but Christ was perfect. Its only by Christ that we do not get the Wrath of God. Thats not to say bad things never happen to Christians, God lets things happen for a reason and who are we to say any different.

C'jais
01-15-2003, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by Rogue_Ace


Also in my opinion the Catholic church has perverted the faith beyond belief. They do believe in Jesus and the Bible but thats not the only thing they believe in. They think that the pope is holy, no way. The only person to be Holy was Jesus. The Catholic church has strayed from the original rule book, the Bible and made up their own rule books, that they put just as much value on. Wrong the supreme law is the Bible, period.

And this makes you... a fundamentalist. No better than Muhammed Atta and his crew. Someone who would die for their God.

Listen, don't flame Catholics because they believe in something else than you. You're technically equally wrong, since none of you have succeeded in proving your postulations and beliefs with objective, empirical proof. And both of your doctrine's theories about the Bible being true has been nullified.

Its a relationship with Christ as a personal Savior.

Gah. According to 3 dictionaries, a religion is a belief in a god. That fits the bill. You are wrong. Or you are not speaking the same English as me.

I never said that interpreting the scripture was wrong. Yes we can look at the Bible and compare it to modern things. But we cannot twist it around until it makes us happy and says what we want it to say.

Yet Luc Solar did none of these things.

Technically no one is innocent.

Technically, none of you Christians have ever backed up your beliefs with facts. Like Maverick Knight said, you should be able to provide arguments and proofs of your religion. Applying circular reasoning on the Bible isn't proof of anything - IE you know the Bible is true because it tells you so, and you trust its postulations because you know its true. I cannot take this Christian lecture seriously until you do.

Rogue_Ace
01-15-2003, 09:41 PM
Yes I would die for my God. I would die for something that I have these convictions about. But I wonít blow myself up in a suicide bombing if thatís what you mean. But if someone put a gun to my head and asked me if I believed in God I would say yes. But donít lump me in with those Psychos who blow themselves up.:(

And Cjais your right I cant show you any evidance that I'm right other than the Bible which you dont believe. I respect that. I do believe that I am right but its cool if you disagree with that :) . Its a thing I have thats called faith and I can only show it to you by my actions. I guess I was not doing a very good job at that with the whole Catholic thing. Sorry. :( As for the relationship thing its just a saying that my friends and I have :rolleyes: .

If anyone feals that I am flaming them I'm sorry that was not my intention at all, I was just stating what I believe.

Yet Luc Solar did none of these things.

Then it was my bad I misunderstood him.

Luc Solar
01-16-2003, 11:45 AM
Unfortunately I don't have time for a proper reply, but I'll just say this:


If someone thinks that they have insulted or flamed me in any way.... oh please! I can not find a single "flameish" comment in all those posts no matter how hard I look. So no need for apologies. :)

Mandalorian54
01-16-2003, 02:38 PM
cjas you have a lot to learn about christianity, only a non christian could think of it that way.

unlike other religions you are not a christian for believing.

This is why people who believe because there parents are christians are not christians.

and people are not christians because they were baptized.

this is why christianity is not a religion but a faith. A relationship with GOD.

Catholics turn "Christianity" into a religion, with all there rules and there holy water they loose sight of GOD and get focused on doing whatever the priest says and there inscence and there confessions. None of that is in the Bible. well it's in the catholic Bible, because the Catholic Bible has two books added to it. And adding to the Bible is wrong.

but do you even care, or would you rather ignorantly believe what you want to? Or would you know the truth?

If you think of christians as whoever says there a christian than Maralin Mansin could be a christian. But he's not.

you say who am I to say who a christian is, I'm only saying what GOD said.

Luc Solar
01-16-2003, 04:08 PM
I dont think that the Old Testament is horrible at all, have you ever read Psalms. Psalms contains some of the most beautify poetry ever written.

I give you this link:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty.html

Browse the site a bit and tell me the OT is not horrible. Sure, there are really nice things there too - things that make you wonder if God isn't a vengeful psycho after all. But some of the stuff is simply disgusting. :(

Catholics,and Jehovah witnesses are not christians even though they call themselves christians.

Well...this does not help much. A believer of which ever religion can say for example: "You all are worshipping a false god. My God is the only real God. No I don't have any proof but I *know* it is true so you have to believe me."

Saying that seems silly in the eyes of someone who simply doesn't believe in the "magic" you do.

...just as saying mister X is holy but Mister Y (The Pope) isn't like it's a fact. (Btw - what the hell does "holy" mean anyways?)

...like saying: "Duh. You guys are so dumb. Everyone knows elves don't exist! Santa does all the work by himself! And only He can make the reindeers fly!

There's some things all religions have in common:

None of them can prove $hit, yet they all are 100% sure that only they are right while everyone else is wrong.

Seems kinda silly to me. :D

Technically no one is innocent. We all deserve what we get, we are sinners, no one but Christ was perfect. Its only by Christ that we do not get the Wrath of God.

This is one thing I can't understand. This whole story about every new born child being a sinner 'cause..what - Adam bit the apple? God won't judge us by our actions? He thinks we are sinners and should burn in hell because of something that happened thousands of years ago...something that we can in no way correct anymore?

Btw - I do believe Jesus sinned while hanging on that cross. But I guess it was understandable; I would have been sorta upset too. :)

What about the whole basis of Christianity: God sacrificed Jesus. Because Jesus died, we are all forgiven.

If you think about that for a moment, it makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!

WHY would he sacrifice his son? Couldn't he have forgiven mankind without doing that?

What good did it do? Did God think that he'll lay some sort of guilt trip on humans so that we'd behave?

What good did Jesus' death accomplish? He suffered and we got our sins forgiven, which God could have done anyways without horribly torturing his only son.

It all sounds great when a charismatic priest says it in a beautiful church with the choir singing in the backround, but... it makes no sense if you think about it.

To tough questions all religions have their patented answer, naturally: Who are we, puny humans, to criticize something all-powerful, all-knowing like God?

God knows best and if you don't "get it" you're just dumb.

Well, I for one have a problem with that.

Still.. I do consider myself a Christian. I'm living a good life and if I'll burn in hell, you can count on burning there with me. :D

C'jais
01-16-2003, 05:51 PM
M54: You can spare me the religious lectures. The Muslim religion is just as wrong as you are. I'm wrong too, but less, since I can actually make consistent theories with real, empirical proof beind them. Of course, I might be utterly wrong, but in the meantime, I'll be less wrong than you.

Your definition of "Christianity" is hilarious to non-believers, and incredibly nonsensic. You're going up against the English language here, and you simply cannot win this one.

Luc Solar: You seem to have it all figured out. Can I ask you a question on this? Why are you religious at all? :confused:

Reborn Outcast
01-16-2003, 07:11 PM
Wow I guess I got ot this thread a little late haha

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
No one ever said that life as a Christian is a "bed of roses." But I would not have it any other way.

Ahh but it is a bed of roses... it's just that roses have thorns. :) Thats what makes the going tough. But once those thorns break off, it is even more than a bed of roses. It is something so beautiful it cannot be expressed in words.

I am a Christian, I go to a great youth group and here are my opinions on some of the things said...


Originally posted by Luc Solar
This whole story about every new born child being a sinner 'cause..what - Adam bit the apple? God won't judge us by our actions?



Btw - I do believe Jesus sinned while hanging on that cross. But I guess it was understandable; I would have been sorta upset too. :)

What about the whole basis of Christianity: God sacrificed Jesus. Because Jesus died, we are all forgiven.

If you think about that for a moment, it makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!

WHY would he sacrifice his son? Couldn't he have forgiven mankind without doing that?


OK where to start... God does not believe that newborn babys are sinners... I don't see where you are getting this assumption from. Only when they are old enough to understand that they are doing something wrong can they sin.

Why do you believe that Jesus sinned? Can you show me some evidence in the Bible that Jesus sinned while hanging on the cross... in fact he did the exact opposite. He prayed to God to forgive the people who were doing this. Here is the actual scripture...
From Luke 23:34 "Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

God sacrificed his son not because it would lay a guilt trip on people, but to show us that he really did care. He sacrificed the perfect being, all for humans who sinned thousands of times daily. He did this becaue it is the only way it would let us know that he really did care about us. To sacrifice ones son or daughter must be a terrible thing but God did it becuae he loved us, and Jesus did it becuase he loved us. He loves us more than anyone in the world could even come close to.



And Cjais I understnad where you're coming from but I just wanna say something. Like other people said, Christianity is not a religion. It is a personal, one-on-one relationship with God. Ohter religions might require someone to go to church a certain amount of times or pray for a certain amount of hours but God wants none of this. He only wants us to love, respect, serve and fear him. I do not fear God like I should. You don't have to go to church to be a Christian and thats what makes Christianity special. Going to church helps you become closer to God, meet other followers, and learn about Gods word. But if you truly believe that God is your personal savior and would do anything for you. If you believe that you are a sinner, are not worthy of being with God but will do anything to help become more worthy (committing your life to him) and ask him to come into your heart and make it your temple, then He will grow within you and take you on a journey of a lifetime that you will never forget, as long as you stay true to him. God does not care how long you pray for or how many times a week you go to church. If you can give 15 minutes out of your busy day to speak, one on one with him in real, personal prayer. If you can make that connection with God and serve him as best you can. If you can tell other people about His word and stay true to your committment, that is all He wants.


Sorry it was a little long. :)

Luc Solar
01-17-2003, 02:41 AM
OK where to start... God does not believe that newborn babys are sinners

I'm not exactly sure which "sects" of christianity believe in this. But it is said however, that even newborns are "tainted". I do not know the right term for this in english, though... :( ( The Basic Sin? That's what it's called in Finnish)

Why are you religious at all?

Since I'm already late from work, I can't answer your question Cjais. :D

I'll try to figure that out at work. It's not like I'd be using my brain there anyways.. :D

FunClown
01-17-2003, 09:24 AM
When you walk around the streets you don't see anything religious. Go to Islamic or Hindu countries and you see the difference. There everything is controlled by religion: what you wear, where you can go and with whom, what you're allowed to do and when/with whom/where, what you can eat, what you can say etc. etc. etc.
...
Can christianity even be considered a religion anymore?

Are you saying that it is the clothes you wear and daily rituals you perform that make a relgion?

This is what Jesus critisized of the Pharisees. They dress up in their robes praying on the street corners proclaiming how much better they are to the others. However, the law was not created so that they may have [i]pride]i].

Its all material. I even think a church is just a building with four walls and a roof. Its not the church or going to one that makes you Christian either. One of my friends was shocked when he saw what I was wearing to church. It really doesn't matter. You don't need money to buy good clothes to go to church or be Christian. It's not important.

Its your belief in Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour who died on the cross for your sins that makes you Christian. None of that material stuff matters in my opinion.

Catholics are just as much Christian as you are. No less. They believe in Christ and the Bibler, ergo the are Christians. This cannot be debated, or you'll have to pervert the current language.

Read Ephesians Chapter 2. Read the books of Timothy, read the New Testament. Now go and read the Catholic Catechism, do you notice the differences?

Bible: You are saved by faith alone not by good works. (read Ephesians 2)
Catechism: You are saved by good works and faith.

Bible: There is only one mediator between man and God. Jesus Christ.
Catechism: St Mary is the mediatrix.

I've been to both Protestant and Catholic churches. Catholic church they pray to Mary to save their souls then they pray to Jesus to save their souls. They also pray to a statue of Mary. Why don't they pray to a golden calf? Would that be idolism then?

They are a people torn between the Catholic church beliefs and the bible. That is my personal experience.

Catholic church also believes that the Pope is inerrical (can not be wrong). I believe that the world does orbit around the sun. Am I a heretic? The Popes been wrong many a time, yet it is still absolute truth? He prays to a statue of Mary each day. Is that Christian, does the bible say to do that? I am not silly. Why should I believe in Mary when the bible says Jesus. Why should I believe both? Which is Christian. The one who believes in Christ or Mary?

I have personal eperience over the course of a year weekly with the Roman Catholic church. I can't see how they believe what the bible says. The new testament does not supercede the old testament but fulfills it.

FunClown
01-17-2003, 09:45 AM
Just some other stuff I'd like to add from what I've read on this thread.

Holy means Seperated.

CJAIS, Christians can use their definition of Christianity, you can use yours. Don't really care if you have ten different dictionaries. Means nothing to me. ;)

To everyone,

I think when you start talking about 'I'm right your wrong' you should state precisely why. Like original sin. I'm right your wrong but I won't say why. Means nothing. :)

Your definition of "Christianity" is hilarious to non-believers, and incredibly nonsensic. You're going up against the English language here, and you simply cannot win this one.

Whats so funny? BTW, do I get something if I win this one. Didn't know prizes were being handed out?? :D

C'jais
01-17-2003, 01:42 PM
Christian people, listen up.

Christianity is a religion.

1. a)Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b)A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Your religion falls under them all. There is no doubt about it, but you can call your religion whatever you want, as long as you realize it's also a religion.

The reason why you can't simply have your definition of it, is because by doing so, you place Christianity above and beyond other religions (which is plain false). This could lead to some very messy situations if every Christian got that idea, since you're the largest religion in the western world. Christianity is a religion, similar to others.

I know why you like to state this, though. Every religion is scared at acknowledging other religions. They like to pretend they don't exist. They like to pretend that other people haven't gotten the same bright idea as them, and wrote down some perfectly clear dogmas.

If I should give a valid reason why I'm not religious, I'd say "Look at the world. Which religion is more right than others? They all look very good on paper, that's for sure, but so far I haven't seen any evidence of people getting into heaven for believing in just this religion."

Now, Christian:

n 1 A person who believes in the teachings of Christ or belongs to a Christian church.

adj 1 [no comp.] (Believing in or belonging to any of the branches of Christianity.)

No doubt here as well. Within the Christian church, there's a subdivision of protestantic and catholic Christians. You can call them bad Christians all you want, but they're still technically Christians. And please stop with the flamy stereotyping - I know for a fact that there are Catholic Christians visiting these forums, and this could well escalate into something unpleasant.

We need some clear-cut definitions folks. To a colorblind person, red might look like something else, but to those not seeing as him, red is objectively defined. And last time I checked Christianity still hasn't convinced over half the world to believe in what they do. Therefore, perverting the English language to suit your needs isn't a viable option for you. You cannot do this.

I think when you start talking about 'I'm right your wrong' you should state precisely why. Like original sin. I'm right your wrong but I won't say why. Means nothing.

This is an excellent idea. I propose you go right ahead and explain to us just why we should believe in your religion. Sure, it makes us feel good, and I can't really argue with the holy Bible, but if I were to look at it in a objective, rational way - why should I believe?

Whats so funny?

You're right. It's not funny. It's starting to get downright scary. I've read of several who would die for Christ, and happily take pain in his place. Yet they still insist they're different and better than the WTC suicide bombers. You're not. If your religion was on retreat, your country on the brink of devastation, I can assure you all that many Christians would without a second of doubt kill themselves in the name of Christ to save everything they believed. It's happened before, and it can damn well happen again. Your religion is no better than others when it comes to this.

Rogue_Ace
01-17-2003, 04:15 PM
I've read of several who would die for Christ, and happily take pain in his place. Yet they still insist they're different and better than the WTC suicide bombers. You're not. If your religion was on retreat, your country on the brink of devastation, I can assure you all that many Christians would without a second of doubt kill themselves in the name of Christ to save everything they believed. It's happened before, and it can damn well happen again. Your religion is no better than others when it comes to this.

To what point would killing ourselves accomplish anything. Christians believe that sucide is a sin and is wrong in Gods eyes. Killing ourselves would solve noting. Our religion is much better than others when it comes to this.

Your religion falls under them all. There is no doubt about it, but you can call your religion whatever you want, as long as you realize it's also a religion.

Yes, Christianity falls under the dictionary definition of religion but to believes it is something more. But you are correct it fits under the definition of religion.

I'm not exactly sure which "sects" of christianity believe in this. But it is said however, that even newborns are "tainted". I do not know the right term for this in english, though... ( The Basic Sin? That's what it's called in Finnish)

Yes all are born into sin. Meaning that yes we are born impure. But until you reach the age that you realise the difference between right and wrong you will not be sent to hell. I think that was what Reborn Outcast was getting at. But yes because of the original sin in the garden of edan all babies are born impure.

Still.. I do consider myself a Christian. I'm living a good life and if I'll burn in hell, you can count on burning there with me.

I do want to warn you that according to the Bible you cannot get into heavan on works alone. Eternal life comes from a relationship with Christ and Christ alone. Not that works are a bad thing, they are centeral to any Christians walk, but they are not the source of salvation.

The reason why you can't simply have your definition of it, is because by doing so, you place Christianity above and beyond other religions (which is plain false).

Yes we do place Christianity above other religions because we believe that it is the only true one. We believe that the only way to heavan is through Christ not Budda, Mohammad or any other.

Reborn Outcast
01-17-2003, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
Yes all are born into sin. Meaning that yes we are born impure. But until you reach the age that you realise the difference between right and wrong you will not be sent to hell. I think that was what Reborn Outcast was getting at. But yes because of the original sin in the garden of edan all babies are born impure.

Yes that is what I was trying to say. God will not send someone to hell until they understand the difference between right and wrong.

Originally posted by Cjais
The reason why you can't simply have your definition of it, is because by doing so, you place Christianity above and beyond other religions (which is plain false). This could lead to some very messy situations if every Christian got that idea, since you're the largest religion in the western world. Christianity is a religion, similar to others.

I don't mean to sound ignorant or high and mighty (and I don't want to offend anyone) but it is above all other religions because it is the only one that leads to Heaven. All others do not.

Originally posted by Cjais
And last time I checked Christianity still hasn't convinced over half the world to believe in what they do.

And neither has any other religion last time I checked. But the people turning to the Christian faith are many.

Mandalorian54
01-17-2003, 06:00 PM
wheather christianity is a religion or a faith then depends on each christian individually. there are many different kinds. So from that perspective, you have to be more exact. you cant just say christianity as a whole, you have to be more precise.

some forms of christianity are faiths some are religions. the religious ones are more often the hipocrytical ones.

Myself. I am a BAPTIST. a baptist christian goes by faith and not religiouse rules.

from the worlds aspect of what christianity is I'm almost ashamed to call myself one. I think I'll just call myself a follower of christ then.

And yes my GOD is real yours is not!

You know what christianity needs. PERSACUTION! where christians are persacuted and it is unpopular to be a christian, that is where you find the "real" christians.

like ancient roman times.

oooooooo our faith falls under some catagories as other religions. wopty frikin doo.

that doesnt make it a religion.

Christianity is above and beyond other religions, it's the only true one. Thats what we believe. You cant believe more than one, no one can, you would be contradicting yourself.

wheather babys go to hell or heaven I'm not sure, I think if a baby dies it goes to hell.

even if it's baptized, a little sprinkle or submersion doesnt change anything.

I've heard scripture to support and contradict this belief, it is hard to interperate the Bible sometimes. But I am more convinced of the scripture that contradicts it.

Was your dictionary written by a christian cjas?

holy doesnt mean separated, Is God separated? NO!

holy is like righteouse and all that is good and stuff. geeze.

Christianity, at least my christianity, is not about pleasing people, or making people feel comfortable, ooooo we don't want scare people away from our church oooo nooooo.

Its about TRUTH.

Buy dieing for our religion we're not talking about suicide, at least I'm not. I'm talking about roman days and nazzi and stuff, like when they say "if you deny GOD and say your not a chistian you will live if you still profess to this foolish religion we will throw you to the lions"

then I say "I am a christian" then they kill ya.

that's what I'm talking about not suicide. Man you just don't get it.

meadfish
01-17-2003, 09:05 PM
WOW! This is my favorite subject!

Also being a former Youth Pastor, I would love to sit in a conference call with all of you to hear if the passion is in your voice as much as it is in your posts. Not a heated yelling match, that is where wars stem from, but a civilized sharing of opinions that hopefully would enlighten all of us to our diversity.

I stumbled on this post by accident and am short on time for now, but I will say this to hold you over.... get away from two words.... "christian" and "religion" :eek:
Yes, for this reason...they are a hinderance to the real issue. Salvation.
I was not raised in a christian or religious home, nor was I in any tragic circumstance, but one day I accepted that God was real. I did not name Him i.e. Ala, Buddha, Mohommed, etc, I just knew I had been created and the Creator was speaking to me deep inside. I listened. I cried. I still cry. I accepted that Jesus was real that day.
Perhaps not having all of the "religious" teachings in my upbringing helped me here. I did not have to struggle with making a decision of whether or not I believed. I just did. I could have been alone on an Island somewhere, and the creator would have still spoken to me.
I received salvation that day by admitting to God that I was a sinner, and asked Jesus to come into my heart. My life has had many ups and downs since that day (20+ years ago) but one thing that has never changed.....the Creator speaks to me, and I listen. I don't always like what He says, but I listen. We all listen. What actions we take after we listen is what defines our "religion". That is why there are so many different ones, we all take different actions.
I do not believe there is one sole correct version of religion, the closest I find in line with what I believe is Pentecostal.
I do believe however that there is one sole correct version of salvation.-----"I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except by me" - Jesus

When I have some time I have insight to the questions raised above which I would like to share. Until then, one other quote-
Above all, love eachother deeply, for love covers a multitude of sins"

Jedi_Monk
01-17-2003, 11:37 PM
I'm a Catholic Christian.

We do not pray to statues, or paintings. We do pray (defined, "To make a fervent request or entreaty", "To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech") that Mary and the other members of the Communion of Saints pray for us to God, "For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears turned to their prayer," (1Pet 3:12). And who is more righteous than those who have proceeded us into heaven? And on the cross, Jesus gave Mary to us as our mother, so we turn to her as a mother who loves us and who will go to bat for us with her Son.

We did not add two books to the Old Testament; the books you claim we added were included in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament translated from the Hebrew between 300 and 130 B.C. and used by the early Church; these books were removed (after the fall of Jerusalem) to foil the early Christians who used them as proof of life after death, specifically Macabees which says, "...for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death..." (2Mac, 12: 44)

We do believe in the Real Presence, as the Church has since 33A.D. Read the early Church documents, the Didache and the letters of the first several successors to Peter, read the Apology of St. Justin Martyr to the Emperor Marcus Aurelius from the second century. Read John 6, and the 1st Letter to the Corinthians, in which Paul says, "Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord... For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself." (1Cor, 11: 27, 29)

Christians have always gathered together, "They devoted themselves to the teachings of the Apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers." (Acts, 2:42). The Apostles were their authorities, and the Apostles ordained people to follow after them as Priests to continue to guide and "feed the flock" after their deaths. The Popes can be traced back, in an unbroken line, from John Paul II to Simon Peter. Yes, not every Pope may have been a good person, strictly speaking, but one of the disciples that Jesus himself chose betrayed him to his death! The wheat will grow along with the weeds until the harvest. And no Pope is infallible unless he is speaking ex cathedra.

We listen to the readings, from the Old Testament, the Psalms, the Epistles and the Gospels, and we recite the Nicene Creed (circa 325 A.D.); we baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit, as Jesus instructed, and we believe that Jesus is God and died to save us from our sins.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, Our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilatem was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

We are Christians.

FunClown
01-18-2003, 12:48 AM
Mandalorian 54, you should move to Indonesia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, China, and other Middle Eastern countires. Sounds like you really would love to live at those places.

Jedi Monk, if God chose the first Pope (St Peter) who was a married man, why is it forbidden for the Pope then to marry?

Also, I was speaking from experience, while I did not personally take part in praying before statues and such because I do not believe we are supposed to. From what was going on, it seemed to contradict the bible.

Rogue_Ace
01-18-2003, 02:21 AM
We do not pray to statues, or paintings. We do pray (defined, "To make a fervent request or entreaty", "To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech") that Mary and the other members of the Communion of Saints pray for us to God, "For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears turned to their prayer," (1Pet 3:12). And who is more righteous than those who have proceeded us into heaven? And on the cross, Jesus gave Mary to us as our mother, so we turn to her as a mother who loves us and who will go to bat for us with her Son.

I'm curious as to why we need Mary to go to her Son for us. Can she change his mind? That is honestly not said in a sarcastic tone. I'm actually curious as to why the Catholic church believes it is necessary or even possible to talk to Jesus through Mary. Why not just speak directly to Jesus the guy who gets you into heaven. Dont get me wrong Mary was a special person to say the least but she was just that, a person. No more perfect than you or I and definatly not Holy, she was just a human, sinful as you or I.

I'll write more later when I have time

BTW Holy- seperated or set-apart, in the sence that God is set apart from us in that he is perfect and w/o flaw, not seperated in the sence of not being able to effect the things in our life.

Psydan
01-18-2003, 02:38 AM
OK, first off, I don't know what dictionary some people are using, but mine says
-Christian
adj.
1.Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2.Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3.Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4.Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
n.
1.One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2.One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus

I don't see "religion" in there anywhere.
"Religion" is following all of the rules and rituals. "Religion" is standing around the cross.(I'm not saying that all religions involve the cross, but making Christianity into a religion instead of a belief is just following the code)

Christianity is a Faith, a lifestyle, of following Christ because of what he sacrificed for us on the cross to allow us to be forgiven.Christianity is taking up your cross and following Jesus (Matthew 10:38)
Also, many people are Christians because of people doing what they are supposed to by witnessing, being missionaries, and sharing the Word of God, not because of their parents.
I also think that "interpreting" the Bible into your own version is wrong. God put what he put there for a reason. If he says "no sex outside of marriage" then that is what he means, not "unless your using protection" or "only if it's for fun" the Bible says"no", and making it say what you want it to is making your own faith, you could say that God says killing is good if you acted like that.

Also, by giving your life to Jesus we don't mean to give it in a suicide bombing, we mean that if you have to die in Christ's name, that you will do it, but not dying when it goes against God's laws of not killing (yourself and others included). A Christian should do all things to glorify God, and God won't reward you for going against his Word, no matter what your intentions are "Vengence will be mine, I will repay, sayeth the Lord" (Romans 12:19), he doesn't expect you to kill others in his name, and that is what seperates us from the Taliban, and other extremist groups.
Well anyway, thats my thoughts, and I wasn't really attacking anyone (or at least didn't mean to), I understand that we're all different, and that your opinion is as equal as mine, but I wish that you would listen to Christians, because my belief is that if you don't, that you are doomed to eternity in Hell, and I wouldn't want anyone to end up there because Heaven is so easy, and so much better than the alternative.

C'jais
01-18-2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
To what point would killing ourselves accomplish anything. Christians believe that sucide is a sin and is wrong in Gods eyes. Killing ourselves would solve noting. Our religion is much better than others when it comes to this.

Not really. Did you know that Islam has much the same values as your Christianity? It may surprise you to find that they also do not like killing, and that suicide is also a sin in their eyes.

No big religion likes killing, because it's so obivious that it's not a good thing.

Christianity has commited genocide on a huge scale. Christians have killed innocent women and children in a grand display of religious affection. Islam has done the same. They're both equally bad.

But you are correct it fits under the definition of religion.

Thank you. You can call your religion whatever you want, as long as you realize that it's a religion.

M54, what exactly is the difference between a "religion" and a "faith"? If you like persecutions, go on and start to preach your god in Islamic countries. Die for your God like the missionary who was shot down there and be happy. I am on the verge of not taking your seriously at all.

Yes all are born into sin.

Until you can prove that to a completely objective bystander with no religious affiliations it is not fact.

We believe that the only way to heavan is through Christ not Budda, Mohammad or any other.

Watch where you're going. It's clear you do not know anything about Buddhism nor Islam.

I also think that "interpreting" the Bible into your own version is wrong. God put what he put there for a reason.

Can you prove that? No? Then you're free to interpret a piece of text the way you want to.

I don't see "religion" in there anywhere.

If you'd care to look, you'd see that religion is written two places there. Try running a search for "Christianity" and "religion" and you'll see some more.

but I wish that you would listen to Christians, because my belief is that if you don't, that you are doomed to eternity in Hell

Did you know that I am, in fact, God? I'm sure you'd like to see proof of that, which is why I've conveniently written on this piece of paper that "Cjais is God". Go on, believe such nonsense, you know you want to.

I've written here that anyone not following my standards, my universal codex of morality, my legions of believers shall forevermore be tormented and experience the infinite pain of a thousand hordes of grotesque demons in hell. Your skin shall be stripped off and serve as my coat. Your brain shall fry and your mind shall despair from looking at Me. You shall know true terror if you do not bow to my ever vigilant eye.

I'm sure you don't want that. I'm sure you'll all follow me, now since I've now shown you what happens if you defy my rule. See the faulty logic? I'm sure you do.

I'm glad a Catholic Christian took up the call and showed you Protestantic Christians that I wasn't wrong.

obi
01-18-2003, 10:52 AM
Ah, the firm believe of Cjaisism :P


A couple of things I'd like to say to some folks:

1: If you are indeed Christian, do not tell someone blatantly that they are going to hell, and shal burn and get eaten by some sort of zombies, while getting tarred and feathered by angered colonists. That will not help them change their views at all. ;)

2: Take into consideration what others say, and try to se it from their point of view before you flair off.
___________________

Ok, now that that is out of the way..... ;)

Reborn Outcast
01-18-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by Cjais
Watch where you're going. It's clear you do not know anything about Buddhism nor Islam.

Ah but I do.

Islam:

Founder: Muhammad (570?-632). About A.D. 610, in Mecca and Medina. Headquaters in Mecca, Suadi Arabia. Main sects: Sunni, Shi'ite.

Writings: Qur'an (Koran), scripture in Arabic. Hadith (Muhammad's words and deeds). Biblical Law of Moses, Psalms, and Gospel of Jese (the Injil) accepted by Qur'an, but considered by Muslims to be "corrupted".

God: God (Allah) is one. God revealed the Qur'an to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. God is a severe judge (though sometimes merciful) and is not depicted as loving.

Jesus: Jesus was born of a virgin but is not the Son of God.

Other Beliefs: Followers are called Muslims. Go to the mosque for prayers, sermons and counsel. Holy efforts to spread Islam (jihad).
Five Pillars of Islam: Confess that Allah is the one true God and that Muhammad is his prophet. Pray five times daily facing Mecca. Give alms (money). Fast during the month of Ramadan. Make pilgrimage to Mecca (once in a lifetime).

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As you can see Cjais, they think that Jesus is not the Son of God and that Muhammed was the divine prophet. They think the Bible is corrupted. They do not even see Allah (God) as loving. That is not the way to heaven.
Now...

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Buddihsm

Founder: Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama). Founded about 525 B.C. in India. Offshoot of Hinduism.

Writings: The Tripitaka (Three Baskets), which has more than 100 volumes.

God: Buddhism is mostly atheistic. Many Buddhists do not believe in God or a Supreme Being of any kind.
Others speak of the Buddha as a universal elightened consciousness or as a god.

Jesus: Jesus Christ is not part of this belief. Buddhists in the West generally view Jesus as an enlightened man.

Holy Spirit: Holy Spirit is not part of this belief.

Salvation: Goal of life is nirvana, to eliminate all desires or cravings, and in this way escape suffering. The Eightfold Path is a system to free Buddhists rom desiring anything.

Death: People do not have a soul or spirit. However, one's desires or feelings may be reincarnated into another person. No Heaven or hell.

Other Beliefs: Eightfold path recommends right knowledge, intentions, speech, conduct, livelihood, right effort, mindfulness, and meditation. Some Buddhist groups talk about an eternal Buddha (life force).

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That is NOT the way to go to Heaven. They do not even believe in Jesus. Not even God.

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Jedi_Monk
The majority are probably protestant converts, but there are many from non-Christian lifestyles who have decided to join the Church.

The fastest growing religion in the Western World is Buddhism. Not that it matters really...

Originally posted by Jedi_Monk
And if the passage of traditions from parent to child were outlawed, it would hardly be a free society.

We are not talking about traditions in general, we're talking about religious brainwash. If religion was outlawed, we would have a much more free society, after the adaption was completed.

Originally posted by Jedi_Monk
But the New Testament supercedes the old for Christians, which is why the Church is against the death penalty

The Church is against capital punishment because the Church has been beaten soundly for the last few centuaries. May I remind you of the Crusades and the Inquisition? Torture, murder, and genocide on a massive scale was glorified by the Church.

Originally posted by Jedi_Monk
I go to youth group after Mass

"I go to youth group youth anti sex league after Mass Two Minutes' Hate"

(Youth anti sex league and Two Minutes' Hate are Orwellian concepts used for the oppression of the population.)

Everything happens for a reason and although you may not see it now i'm sure that God will reveal it to you in the future.

Such a "master plan" would mean that humans have no free will. We have. Therefore there can be no "master plan".

I know that those words are not really that comforting but thats life

False. Stick to facts, they'll serve you better, unless you want to oppress somone.

I do not question my own faith

Yet you question your Presidente... What is the big difference.

I believe in Jesus, and stick w/the morals that are taught in the Bible.

Which morals? The Bible contradicts itself in multiple places. Do you just pick and choose? Or are you skitzo in order to go with all of it?

I prefer to let my actions speak louder than words when it comes to the 'preaching the gospel' part.

More power to that veiw.

obi
01-18-2003, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar



Which morals? The Bible contradicts itself in multiple places. Do you just pick and choose? Or are you skitzo in order to go with all of it?





Show me where it contridicts itself, and I will provide some sort of explanation. :)

Reborn Outcast
01-18-2003, 01:29 PM
Yes please Shadow.. I would love to see what you find because there will be some sort of explanation.

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
The Old Testament is horrible. It is barbaric, cruel, prejudiced. The Old Testament is a symbol for the very opposite of what *my* God and *my* faith represents.

The New&Old Testaments are horrible. They are barbaric, cruel, prejudiced. The New&Old Testament are a symbol for the very opposite of sanity.

Originally posted by Luc Solar
The Old Testament symbolises the sort of religion that is the root of all evil.

Mind your wording. I'm not saying that you mean it that way, but Hitler said pretty much the same thing. Again, I'm not saying that you mean it that way (you probably don't given the rest of your post)...

Originally posted by Luc Solar
* waiting for a bolt of lightning to strike me down *

Okay. Phew!

I have committed blasphemy on numerous occations, and I have yet to feel the gentle carress of a bolt of lightning striking my head on a sunny day...

Originally posted by Luc Solar
If you look at the Talebans or other highly religious communities, you see what I'm, talking about.

Keywords: "Highly religious communities".

Originally posted by Luc Solar
"Only WE are righteous [...]

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:27-28

Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost its savor, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men. Matt 5:13

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the swine, lest haply they trample them under their feet, and turn and rend you. Matt 7:6

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Matt 7:19

After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Matt 6:9-10 (own italisation)

(According to the American Standard Bible (you need to standardize the Bible? What does that say about its credibility?).)

You were saying?

Originally posted by Luc Solar
Hmmm.. enough about that.

I thought so...

Originally posted by Luc Solar
The new Testament is a whole different story however.

See above.

Originally posted by Luc Solar
It's a great book with lots of info that is still useful.

So is HavamŠl. In fact perhaps even more so. What makes the Bible so special?

Originally posted by Luc Solar
I just don't think that one should take it literally.

Well, gee... Why even take it seriously?

Originally posted by Luc Solar
An example:

The bible says: No sex before marriage.

What *I* think the bible says here is this:

[...]

But instead the Bible says: "No sex before marriage period"

I think you overestemate Jesus. After all, he was just a common terrorist.

Originally posted by Luc Solar
Times have changed. The point is still valid, but it needs to be interpreted differently now that things have changed (contraceptives etc.).

But by interpreting the point you have actually changed it to: "You can have sex as long as it is safe and no-one gets hurt."

Originally posted by Luc Solar
My god is not the god of Israel or the god of Christians. Simply the fact that we have so many religions in the world proves in a way the fact that none of us is right.

More power to that veiw. Nothing is right, only more or less wrong (and rationalism has a way of being very little wrong).

Originally posted by Luc Solar
But what I do know is that no damn god takes every drop of community wine and changes it to the blood of a person who allegedly lived some 2000 years ago.

[...]

God must have better things to do.

LOL. If God is so omnipotent as the Bible states, then it must have had better things to do that creating man.

Originally posted by Luc Solar
Perhaps God has given us guidelines, codes that we should strive to live by. But ATM a certain code is passť. It can not be taken literally anymore. That is my opinion.

Then why make the guideline a god-given law in the first place?

Originally posted by Luc Solar
Religion is the root of all evil in the hands of men. How many wars have we fought that would have been prevented if no religion existed? How much hate and suffering would disappear this day if suddenly the whole world would turn Buddhist?

Think about it.

More power to that veiw. But, while still harmless compaired to Judaism and its offshots, Buddhism actually has had wars of faith. Still, fair point.

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
Show me where it contridicts itself, and I will provide some sort of explanation. :)

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

It's all there, and in plain english too (exept the Bible quotes which are in not-so-plain english).

Reborn Outcast
01-18-2003, 02:08 PM
This is from that website:

---------------------------------------------------------------------
1:16 God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the
night." But if God made the moon to "rule the night", then why does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky?
--------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry but that is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. The sun does rule the daytime. The moon does not so it makes no sense to ask why it moves through the daytime sky... but once the sun goes down then the moon does rule the night. I'm sorry but that is just an example of a person trying very hard to prove that the Bible is wrong. Thats not facts or contradictions, its just someone trying to be smart.

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
I dont think that the Old Testament is horrible at all, have you ever read Psalms. Psalms contains some of the most beautify poetry ever written.

Have you ever heard about the Sirens? Beauty and savage cruelty may well go hand in hand.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
You say that it (OT) is cruel and barbaric,

[...]

but when they came back to Him and asked his forgivness.

Have you ever played Black & White? Do you know what alignment a god like that would get?

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
Yes New Testament Law supersedes that of the OT but that does not mean that we should throw all of its teachings out the window. It is still the Bible, the Word of God and it should be followed. The reason that we are not "struck down by a bolt of lightening:)" is because we now have Christ intervening on our behalf.

Then why shouldn't we throw the Bible out of the window? I've done that, and I've lead a fine life up to this point. If God's fury is kept at bay by JC, then why should we worry about God? Unless JC is a racist kind of guy?

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
Very true. But those communities do not represent the Christian Community, in fact they are the exact opposite.

A commonly held misconception amongst Christians. Christianity was just as barbaric (and still is, only now it can't do as much damage) before the Age of Enlightenment, where Northern Europe threw down the shackles of Christianity, and gave that same oppressive regime a good kick in the arse, from which they thankfully never recovered. The best thing that can happen to a religion is a good, long oppression.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
I know what you are going to say, to just look at the Jews and all the crap that is happening over in Israel at this time.

No, actually I would suggest looking at Northern Ireland for a start. And then to the Bible Belt second... And the Crusades and the Inquisition for some historical depth.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
I dont even consider most Catholics to be Christians,

An acedemic debate.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
Yes is does and that still stands for today, and not just in the OT.

What planet did you just drop down from? I'll **** anyone I damn well please (assuming that they want to, of course, along the guidelines that Luc posted), and no pious nonsense is gonna prevent me from doing it.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
When you start to take the Bible as partially true then you are destroying the whole concept of it.

More power, then, to those who critically interpret the Bible. Better yet, more power to those who try to counter its bad influence.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
You start to take only the parts that are fun and lovey and get rid of the rest. Whats the point of believing only certian parts that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

There is a point to promoting your faith that way. If, God forbid (so to speak), Christianity ever returned to power, we would see a quite different picture. Or rather, we would be shown a quite different picture, because seeing for ourselves might make us think for ourselves...

obi
01-18-2003, 02:20 PM
From the Link
From science, we know the true order of events was just the opposite.

How do "we" know the true order? How do "we" know that Carbon dating, and other methods are true?We do not. I find this an invalid and pompous remark.

This firmament, if it existed, would have been quite an obstacle to our space program


Maybe, in fact, most likely, this part is referring to a spritual nature. Science cannot penetrate a spirit, or anything spiritual. And do not use an example of ghost hunting as a counter-debate, because that is just silly.


The use of the plural (us, our) implies that there is more than one god, contrary to many monotheistic biblical statements.

This was in response to the Bible verse: "Let us make man in our own image."

There is only one God of Israel, One God of Earth. God was talking to The other members of the Trinity; Jesus his son, and The Holy Spirit.

I could go through that site you linked me to, and provide an explanation to their interpretation of the Bible, but that would take many many days, probably months because they do this to the entire Bible. I could argue against them, and have valid arguements, but it would take too much time. I believe what I have covered thus far is good enough for now.

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
This is from that website:

[...]

Thats not facts or contradictions, its just someone trying to be smart.

Point. Still, the site as a whole is very interesting, it does have some shortcomings, of course, I'll be the first to admit that...

But if you want some obvious nonsense taken right from the pages of the Bible, look at The Whole Silly Flood Story (http://www.rice.edu/armadillo/Sciacademy/riggins/flood.htm), from Creationism Revisited, or Things Creationists Hate (link in my post).

Of course this is not a contradiction in the Bible, but rather a contradiction between the Bible and common sense...

How do "we" know the true order? How do "we" know that Carbon dating, and other methods are true?We do not. I find this an invalid and pompous remark.

Aah. Apart from the "know", we actually do. We don't "know" anything. But our senses (science) tell us that it is so. If you want to see the full, scary perspectives of refusing our senses I suggest that you read 1984, in which it is brilliantly explained.

Maybe, in fact, most likely, this part is referring to a spritual nature. Science cannot penetrate a spirit, or anything spiritual. And do not use an example of ghost hunting as a counter-debate, because that is just silly.

If it cannot be penetrated by science, then it cannot exist, because science can penetrate all that exists. The "spirit", apart form being a comic strip (but then it has a capital S), cannot possibly exist, as all the things normally associated with the "spirit" (emotion, thought, ect.) are biochemical functions in our brains. They have even, to a great degree, been located. Kill the brain, kill the "spirit".

Also, if it refers to a "spiritual" thing, then why doesn't it say so?

And Ghost Busting is silly, any way you look at it, so no, I will not use that as a ripostť...

There is only one God of Israel, One God of Earth. God was talking to The other members of the Trinity; Jesus his son, and The Holy Spirit.

But OT is a Jewish text... Judaism didn't recognize JC or the "Holy Spirit" last time I checked. Anyway it may just have been a "royal plural", so that part of the site doesn't really count.

I could go through that site you linked me to, and provide an explanation to their interpretation of the Bible, but that would take many many days, probably months because they do this to the entire Bible.

I am not arguing that you have to check every minor detail, because that would be just plain demagougic, but I have found a hole in one of your counter-arguments, and in the meantime supplied you with more fun (Things Creationists Hate)...

Reborn Outcast
01-18-2003, 03:04 PM
This is from a website that explains why evolution couldn't have occured... for more on this... go tothis website (http://www.gospelcom.net/faithfacts/ev_origins.html)


Many mathematicians have looked at probability science for help with evolution. Could it have occurred by chance? Below are some numbers. To illustrate the magnitude of these numbers, for the sake of comparison, be aware that the number of electrons in the universe is believed to be 10 to the 80th power.
Mathematician William Dembski calculated that if the probability of something occurring is less than one in 10 to the 150 power, it has no possibility of happening by chance at any time by any conceivable process throughout all of cosmic history. He further estimates that the probability of evolving the first cell is no better than one in 10 to the 4,478,146 power.
In regard to the universe occurring by chance, researcher Hugh Ross explains that there are actually two sets of odds that interrelate: first, the unique characteristics that must be fashioned to explain the earth's capacity to support life, and second, that life could arise even on a suitably configured planet by random chance. He calculates the odds for life as remote as 1 in 10 to the 100,000,000,000 power
Yet some say that, well, given enough time, evolution could occur. But it would be like saying that putting the parts to a computer in a washing machine, and given enough time that they will assemble themselves into a functioning computer. It won't happenóno matter how much time.
Mathematician/astronomer Fred Hoyle put it this way. He said that the probability of evolution creating the living world by chance is like believing that "...a tornado sweeping through a junk yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein."
Denton concludes that probability science comes "very close to a formal disproof of the whole Darwinian paradigm of nature. By what strange capacity do living organisms defy the laws of chance which are apparently obeyed by all analogous complex systems?"
Evolutionists have been faced with such figures for many years. If they could come up with a number within the realm of possibility, they would be crowing about it. But they have not been able to do so. Life was designed; it did not evolve. The correctness of this conclusion is the inverse of the probability that eliminated evolution, that is, 10 to the 4,478,296 power to one.
There is one thing we can say further. Given the probabilities against evolution, if evolution did occur, it would constitute a miracleóconvincing proof of God's existence.


(NOTE****: These forums don't allow the power symbols to be written such as 2 to the 2nd power as 2 squared... that why I had to write 10 to the ........ power.

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
Yes I am a christian.

I am a Baptist to be exact.

and I don't beleive you should be baptized as a child because you are supposed to be baptized as a public statment that you have faith and want to be a christian.

I actually spoke to a priest about that once (not kidding), and he said that the I-don't-know-what-it-is-called-in-English ceremony around your fourteenth year of age is where you declare yourself a Christian. I am also against Infant baptizing, but I am against it because it, like circumsicion (how in the name of God do you spell that?), is violating the child.

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
When your a baby you don't have faith you dont even know you exist yet.

A baby knows that it exists, alright, just try to leave it for a few seconds...

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
How many of you remember being baptized? You only know your baptized because you were told.

And you only know about God because you were told... Interesting...

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
I am against abortion, infant baptism,and women preachers.

And therapeutic cloning that can save people's lives too, I bet...

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
Catholics,and Jehovah witnesses are not christians even though they call themselves christians.

Catholicism is just the first major branch of Christianity to rise... Of course they're not Christian... JW: Why are they not Christian? They believe in JC, don't they? They believe in God, don't they? But they give Christianity a bad name, so of course they aren't Christian. Anyway, it's an academic debate: Its a religion, and should therefore be abolished.

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
And Christianity is not a religeon its a faith!

Check your dictionary. Faith is an act of idiocy. Religion/theocracy is a form of government. Christianity is not an act, though it is, by any standard save its own, idiocy...

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
And duh you have to believe in the Bible to be a christian, thats like saying I don't believe in Christ but I'm a Christian.

You can believe in JC without believing in the Bible. But I don't want to get into that... I'll let you tear each others' throats out until a MOD steps in...

obi
01-18-2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar

1:If it cannot be penetrated by science, then it cannot exist, because science can penetrate all that exists. The "spirit", apart form being a comic strip (but then it has a capital S), cannot possibly exist, as all the things normally associated with the "spirit" (emotion, thought, ect.) are biochemical functions in our brains. They have even, to a great degree, been located. Kill the brain, kill the "spirit".

2:Also, if it refers to a "spiritual" thing, then why doesn't it say so?


3:But OT is a Jewish text... Judaism didn't recognize JC or the "Holy Spirit" last time I checked. Anyway it may just have been a "royal plural", so that part of the site doesn't really count.


1:Not true. Science cannot penetrate love, and it exists. Science cannot penetrate very deep space(not yet any way), either, but it too exists.

2: It does not say that it is a spiritual thing, because God did not intend Mankind to question him as they have many times, and will continue to do so. He just wanted us to have faith in him, and trust what he said.

3: Some jews back then accepted Jesus as their massiah, and followed him. However, in the end, they turned their back on him. That is in the Bible also. However, it may have just been a sign of respect, the pluralism, meaning God was so powerful, that God was mistaken for more then one. I wasn't around back then, so I cannot vouch for that.

;)



Faith is an act of idiocy


No, Faith is knowing he will. ;)

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
This is from a website that explains why evolution couldn't have occured... for more on this... go tothis website (http://www.gospelcom.net/faithfacts/ev_origins.html)

Of the four subpages on the site, the first should be easily done away with by a quick search on www.sciam.com. Cunduct a search on the words "15 answers", and the search results will come up with an article called "15 answers to creationist nonsense". It answers all the so-called points in aforementioned part of the site, and more.

As for the text you copy-pasted into your post, the issue of probability is... well, not too terribly well represented in it. Firstly: He doesn't specify the size of the system that he is looking at or the timespan during which he is looking. That way, I could make the probability of the Bible ever being written lucrediously small...

How? Simple: I can say that the probability of the Bible being written by one man in an hour is 10^somehugenumber to one. Then I remove the specifications of time and size of system, and get this net result: The probability of the Bible ever being written is 10^somehugenumber to one. The guy who wrote this is nothing but a simple fraud.

One part that I would like to point out in particular is this:

"Life was designed; it did not evolve. The correctness of this conclusion is the inverse of the probability that eliminated evolution, that is, 10 to the 4,478,296 power to one."

Blatantly false. Life could have existed always. There is exactly the same amount of evidence for creation as for always-been: None. This is a classic example of how statistics can be abused. And it DOESN'T HOLD. Period.

In the opening statement the site claims (amongst other nonsense) that:

"As evidenced by a wave of recent books on the subject, there is a growing uneasiness in the scientific community about the validity of Darwinian evolution."

Sorry, but popular litterature doesn't mean that there is any "growing uneasiness" anywhere. In fact, as 15 Answers states, the facts are exactly opposite.

"Many scientists and philosophers are taking a fresh look at evolution, and based on the latest evidence are raising huge questions."

Anyone who puts scientists and philosophers in the same little box obviously knows nothing about either.

The site is, in other words, totally and utterly useless fraud. In all respects. Only a creationist or a fool could possibly be persuaded by it.

Using scientifically-sounding words doesn't make science (as evidenced by the creationists who keep using the 2nd-law-of-thermodynamics-nonsense).

Another good example of the limitations of your accounts of probability is illustrated by this example: If you arrange a cubic foot of sand in a cubic foot of space, what is the probability of that sand ending up in a neat cone on a windless day? Not big. At all. Yet is does. Because it is not arranged randomly.

As any high school student can probably tell you, some chemical reactions occur more willingly than others. You will not, for example, see aluminiumoxide (Al2O3) will not split up to aluminium an oxygen (Al and O), and hydrogen (H) is far more reactive than helium (He). Some reactions are more willing than others.

One major reason why I think that all of these probabilities that are hung out, seemingly at random, are invented, is that it is simply not possible to make that calculation. There are too many unknow variables. And again: The calculations are not complete. Lots of information about the basis for them has been left out.

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
Not true. Science cannot penetrate love, and it exists. Science cannot penetrate very deep space(not yet any way), either, but it too exists.

Love is a biochemical reaction that ensures reproduction. It has been penetrated.

Deep space is also understood, and therefore penetrated.

Originally posted by obi-wan13
2: It does not say that it is a spiritual thing, because God did not intend Mankind to question him as they have many times, and will continue to do so. He just wanted us to have faith in him, and trust what he said.

"DO WHAT I SAY OR BURN IN HELL!" -God :rolleyes: "Sieg Heil" -Hitler

Originally posted by obi-wan13
No, Faith is knowing he will.

And if I have faith that pigs fly, will that then be less idiotic? There is the same amount of evidence: NONE.

obi
01-18-2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar


1.Love is a biochemical reaction that ensures reproduction. It has been penetrated.

2.Deep space is also understood, and therefore penetrated.



3."DO WHAT I SAY OR BURN IN HELL!" -God :rolleyes: "Sieg Heil" -Hitler



4.And if I have faith that pigs fly, will that then be less idiotic? There is the same amount of evidence: NONE.

1.Really? I thought love was a feeling that a person has when he/she encounters another person he/she fels deeply for.

2. Deep space has not been understood, the arrogant minds of scientists just say the understand it.

3.God wants us to be obediant yes, but just by not doing what he says doesn't mean you go to Hell. Not accepting Jesus as your savior gets you there. ;)


4.Who cares if you have faith pigs fly, we are discussing the truthfulness of the Bible, not ol' Mcdonald had a farm. ;)

BTW, why are we debating? I am not going to change my mind, and you probably aren't going to change yours, so we sort of cancel each other out, no? ;)

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
1.Really? I thought love was a feeling that a person has when he/she encounters another person he/she fels deeply for.

There is an entire thread about this subject. I suggest that you go there.

Originally posted by obi-wan13
2. Deep space has not been understood, the arrogant minds of scientists just say the understand it.

And the arrogant minds of the fundamentalist thinks that it has found the truth... The difference is that the scientist has proof, whereas the fundamentalist has only his own folly.

Originally posted by obi-wan13
3.God wants us to be obediant yes, but just by not doing what he says doesn't mean you go to Hell. Not accepting Jesus as your savior gets you there. ;)

One question: Where is the evidence. Keyword: Evidence.

Originally posted by obi-wan13
4.Who cares if you have faith pigs fly, we are discussing the truthfulness of the Bible, not ol' Mcdonald had a farm. ;)

You do not answer my question: Would the statement: "Pigs fly" be any less idiotic if I believed in it?

Originally posted by obi-wan13
BTW, why are we debating? I am not going to change my mind, and you probably aren't going to change yours, so we sort of cancel each other out, no? ;)

I never debate because I want to change the mind of the ones that I debate with. Because, as you say, they aren't gonna change their minds during the debate. I debate for the sake of the listeners, and in order to (hopefully) instill some independent thought into the heads of the more stubborn zealots...

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Maverick Knight
If you can't ask questions and get logical answers, it's not worth believing in. Everyone should be able to back up their beliefs with arguments. Otherwise, it's not worth believing in.

Which excludes all religion, and, basically, is not belief. Belief is thinking that something is right without having proof. If you have proof, then it's knowledge, not belief.

Originally posted by Maverick Knight
Now, I have found that Christianity is the only belief system (philosophical, theological, and otherwise) that is able to answer my questions adequately. And yes, there was a time when I doubted the religion, but it was because I was able to get thorough and logical answers that I stayed with it.

What questions did you ask it?

Originally posted by Maverick Knight
The Testaments:
The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies.

This is an interesting piece: JC knew those prophecies, and actively sought to fulfill them, according to the Bible... Which kinda equals having a prophecy that says: "X will kill Y at Z time", that X knows of. If X then wants the prophecy to appear true, then he would just have ot kill Y at the time Z.

Originally posted by Maverick Knight
And about that 'no sex before marriage' thing: it's still valid. Just because we can do it more safely than in their times doesn't mean that we should. Sex is a precious thing, a sign of commitment to a partner, not just a 'good time.' After sex, what is the most intimate thing a couple can share? Answer: not much.

But it is not a law. No governmental agency can punish you for doing it. Nor should any governmental agency be able to punish you for pre-marital sex. Period.

Originally posted by Maverick Knight
Summary:
Don't judge Christianity or any other religion by the people who practise it. Judge it by what it says at its core and how well it applies to the real world.

Don't judge Communism on the practitioners. It isn't bad just because it killed one hundred million people. One should look at the core writings... The logical flaw is obvious. An organisation, and a type of government, should be judged based on how it is applied, not what it says. Actions count, not words. Words are free. Actions are not.

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
Its a relationship with Christ as a personal Savior.

It is a barbaric mode of government that has committed genocide. Nothing more. Imagine a soldier grabbing a little baby by the legs and beating its head against a wall until its skull splits open, and you will have just about the right picture of what Christianity has accomplished.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
I never said that interpreting the scripture was wrong. Yes we can look at the Bible and compare it to modern things. But we cannot twist it around until it makes us happy and says what we want it to say.

Strangely, that is what it has always been used for.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
Technically no one is innocent. We all deserve what we get, we are sinners, no one but Christ was perfect. Its only by Christ that we do not get the Wrath of God. Thats not to say bad things never happen to Christians, God lets things happen for a reason and who are we to say any different.

In other words: Bow to your rightful king. He has been installed as supreme dictator by God himself. Who are you to question your position. Sorry, but that world-view became obsolote centuries ago. And the Bible was obsolote before it was even written.

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
cjas you have a lot to learn about christianity, only a non christian could think of it that way.

In what way? Based on what it has done instead of what it says? But that is the only rational way to look at it.

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
unlike other religions you are not a christian for believing.

Then what does make me Christian?

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
but do you even care, or would you rather ignorantly believe what you want to? Or would you know the truth?

DO NOT DARE TO SPEAK OF TRUTH, when you do not even have facts.

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
you say who am I to say who a christian is, I'm only saying what GOD said.

What the Bible (read: An obsolote, useless collection of random rants, written to impress fools into following Paulus' lead) said.

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
I give you this link:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty.html

LOL. Good site. Very amusing...

Originally posted by Luc Solar
(Btw - what the hell does "holy" mean anyways?)

Pronounced holy by some other holy person. Who is usually self-appointed.

Originally posted by Luc Solar
There's some things all religions have in common:

None of them can prove $hit, yet they all are 100% sure that only they are right while everyone else is wrong.

Seems kinda silly to me. :D

YES! YOU SAID IT MATE!

Originally posted by Luc Solar
This is one thing I can't understand. This whole story about every new born child being a sinner 'cause..what - Adam bit the apple? God won't judge us by our actions? He thinks we are sinners and should burn in hell because of something that happened thousands of years ago...something that we can in no way correct anymore?

Conclusion: God is a sadist.

Originally posted by Luc Solar
What about the whole basis of Christianity: God sacrificed Jesus. Because Jesus died, we are all forgiven.

If you think about that for a moment, it makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!

WHY would he sacrifice his son? Couldn't he have forgiven mankind without doing that?

What good did it do? Did God think that he'll lay some sort of guilt trip on humans so that we'd behave?

What good did Jesus' death accomplish? He suffered and we got our sins forgiven, which God could have done anyways without horribly torturing his only son.

It all sounds great when a charismatic priest says it in a beautiful church with the choir singing in the backround, but... it makes no sense if you think about it.

To tough questions all religions have their patented answer, naturally: Who are we, puny humans, to criticize something all-powerful, all-knowing like God?

God knows best and if you don't "get it" you're just dumb.

Well, I for one have a problem with that.

Still.. I do consider myself a Christian. I'm living a good life and if I'll burn in hell, you can count on burning there with me. :D

This is so good. Everyone should read it. Given the last few responses to this thread, I believe that some of you could do with reading it again.

BTW: See you in hell, Luc.

Jed
01-18-2003, 06:27 PM
Wowzers....lots of stuff I don't understand going on in here...

I'm just here to say my two cents, however petty and insignificant it may be...

I was baptized an Episcopal. Albeit, I barely know what my religion is; I've been in a church about twice in my life.

I seem to believe what I choose to believe - I've paved myself my own religion in a way.

Science and religion will never mix - and can be viewed on either side. But, science viewed by man, is based on what we view as true. What is the truth is not known, also showing that we could be entirely wrong, and meaning we can never prove God to be non-existant. If anything, doing so proves God exists. But I'm starting to make less and less sense....

I digress....

That's just my opinion. Please no painful disections of it - I have no reason to debate with anyone.

ET Warrior
01-18-2003, 07:35 PM
I just have one thing to point out to all you folks whos entire argument is based on science, is that, if i am correct scientists believe that what has happened will continue to happen.... correct? So since life has evolved before it is going to keep evolving etc. etc.

Now, 500 years ago what did scientists KNOW to be true? That th earth was flat, and it was the center of the universe, correct? Nearly all things that people back then knew by science have been proven to be wrong then, correct? SO....in 500 years, will people be looking at us and saying....Wow.....those people were so STUPID! How could they POSSIBLY believe in evolution? That's the crappiest theory since the earth being flat. :D:cool:

And perhaps THEY will prove the existance of a God.....and then again they will laugh at us for not believing.......just a thought.

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
I just have one thing to point out to all you folks whos entire argument is based on science, is that, if i am correct scientists believe that what has happened will continue to happen.... correct? So since life has evolved before it is going to keep evolving etc. etc.

No all right, but not all wrong either... Science predicts that the laws of nature don't just change overnight. That will suffice for now.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
Now, 500 years ago what did scientists KNOW to be true? That th earth was flat, and it was the center of the universe, correct?

False on all counts. First off: There were no scientists 500 years ago. And if there were, they would not have thought that they knew anything to be true.

The notion that in the Middle Ages people believed Terra to be flat is, I think, propaganda invented by later times in order to make them look stupid. But nevermind.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
Nearly all things that people back then knew by science have been proven to be wrong then, correct?

No. Many things that they though have been proven wrong. And, again, they didn't have science at that time: It was invented in the mid-19th centuary (and caused the Church a severe pain in the arse, too).

Originally posted by ET Warrior
SO....in 500 years, will people be looking at us and saying....Wow.....those people were so STUPID! How could they POSSIBLY believe in evolution? That's the crappiest theory since the earth being flat. :D:cool:

Again, noone believes in evolution. Keyword: Believes. It does not need to be believed: It can be observed.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
And perhaps THEY will prove the existance of a God.....and then again they will laugh at us for not believing.......just a thought.

Highly improbable: God would just be classified as a suffeiciently advanced ETI.

Breton
01-18-2003, 08:08 PM
To all you who says that Catholics aren't really cristians: Either all who thinks of themselves as christians are christians, or none are christians. It's that simple. You can't go on saying "I'm christian, but because the others don't practise it the same way as me, they aren't".

Now, 500 years ago what did scientists KNOW to be true? That th earth was flat, and it was the center of the universe, correct? Nearly all things that people back then knew by science have been proven to be wrong then, correct? SO....in 500 years, will people be looking at us and saying....Wow.....those people were so STUPID! How could they POSSIBLY believe in evolution? That's the crappiest theory since the earth being flat.

They never knew anything, they just assumed it. Nowadays, scientists get evidence for their theories, there's a huge difference. And BTW, christianity has certainly not helped people gaining facts about the world.

meadfish
01-18-2003, 08:48 PM
I would like to submit my insight regarding some of the questions raised above.

First of all, great post Luc!! ;) You opened yourself up to get some answers or at least others opions and that took some guts.

Regarding the first line of the post:

Christianity differs from other major religions quite a bit.

So true. Christianity says that Christ is the ONLY way to get to heaven. Having Him in your heart will help you through this walk of life, and help Him if you let Him work through you to reach others who are lost.

Lost are not necessarily those who do not believe in Christianity, but those who do not belive in life after death. Once you believe in life after death, God will lead you to Christ so that you have the choice to accept Him. (read Rev. 3-20)

Am I Christian? I suppose so, technically anyway. I'm Evangelical Lutheran (sp?).

A person cannot be a christian simply because they were raised by christian parents, or baptized, etc. It is a choice each person will make.....accept Him or don't. So you will always know if you are a christian, because you know if you accepted Him.

Do you Christians even believe in the Biblical God? Was Jesus his son?

Do you think you must agree with the Bible in order to be a real Christian? Can you be a good person even if you are not a Christian and if so, why would we even need the Bible?

I do believe in the biblical God. The same feeling I get when I know God is speaking to my spirit, I get when I read the bible! So I believe it to be his written voice.

Of course you can be an awesome person and not even acknowledge that Christ ever lived. But where would you go after life? How could you go to heaven if you never accepted the "invitation"?

Here it is in a nut shell:

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" -Romans 3:23 (keyword all)

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 6:23 (key words sin = death)

So, all have sinned and sin = death therefore all deserve death. But surely God is more forgiving, right?

"In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." -Hebrews 9:22 (blood = forgiveness)

So God has to shed our blood to forgive us? Blood must be shed, so in the Old Testament times they would do an animal blood sacrifice. When the animal died that sin was forgiven. But this was a temporary fix, only needed because Jesus Christ had not yet been born.

Enter Jesus Christ - everything changes.

"God made him who had no sin to be sin offering for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." - 2nd Corinthians 5:21

Jesus was the "animal" whose blood was shed to forgive our sins.

"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." -Romans 10:4

At that point exit Old Testament law, enter New Testament salvation. An animal blood sacrifice was no longer needed for every sin, because Jesus was the perfect "Lamb of God" animal for all mankind

So why Jesus? Simple, He had no sin.....

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin." -Hebrews 4:15

Btw - I do believe Jesus sinned while hanging on that cross. But I guess it was understandable; I would have been sorta upset too.

Impossible. Only because He NEVER sinned could He be the only appropriate sacrifice ALL sin.

This is one thing I can't understand. This whole story about every new born child being a sinner 'cause..what - Adam bit the apple? God won't judge us by our actions? He thinks we are sinners and should burn in hell because of something that happened thousands of years ago...something that we can in no way correct anymore?

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" -Romans 5:12

Soooooo..... The first time I sinned I would be unable to stand in God's holy presence because of it. By asking Jesus into my sinned filled heart, his blood has covered the sin. In God's presence He will not see my sinful nature which I inherited from Adam, rather the blood of His Son Jesus which has "washed" the sin away.

BTW, Thank you Jesus......

Sorry to be sooo wordy, but these are matters of life and death.

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by meadfish
So true. Christianity says that Christ is the ONLY way to get to heaven. Having Him in your heart will help you through this walk of life, and help Him if you let Him work through you to reach others who are lost.

And if those who are lost do not want to be found? If they don't want a mad mindset forced upon them? What must you do then?

Originally posted by meadfish
Lost are not necessarily those who do not believe in Christianity, but those who do not belive in life after death. Once you believe in life after death, God will lead you to Christ so that you have the choice to accept Him. (read Rev. 3-20)

I believe in life before death... So I guess that the boogeyman is coming for me...

Originally posted by meadfish
A person cannot be a christian simply because they were raised by christian parents, or baptized, etc. It is a choice each person will make.....accept Him or don't. So you will always know if you are a christian, because you know if you accepted Him.

I have never made the choice whether to accept JC. I want to see someone back the Bible with something real before I decide whether to follow him or not.

Originally posted by meadfish
I do believe in the biblical God. The same feeling I get when I know God is speaking to my spirit, I get when I read the bible! So I believe it to be his written voice.

When do you feel "God" speaking? When you're on hashish?

Originally posted by meadfish
Of course you can be an awesome person and not even acknowledge that Christ ever lived. But where would you go after life? How could you go to heaven if you never accepted the "invitation"?

Dunno. I guess that I'll burn that bridge when I get to it.

Originally posted by meadfish
Impossible. Only because He NEVER sinned could He be the only appropriate sacrifice ALL sin.

"My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" -JC (at least that's what I heard in Religion class)

Questioning the value of God, no?

Anyway, this whole sacrifice business leads to one obvious question: Why didn't God just forgive us? If he's omnipotent, and wanted to forgive (or he wouldn't have sent JC, right?), then why all this sacrifice business to begin with? Why not just say: Your sins are forgiven? (I have a reason, but it would imply that religion is merely a social phenomenon, so I suppose that it doesn't really count.)

Originally posted by meadfish
Soooooo..... The first time I sinned I would be unable to stand in God's holy presence because of it. By asking Jesus into my sinned filled heart, his blood has covered the sin. In God's presence He will not see my sinful nature which I inherited from Adam, rather the blood of His Son Jesus which has "washed" the sin away.

Again: Why doesn't God just abolish sin? Surely it would be within the power of an omnipotent god to do so?

Originally posted by meadfish
BTW, Thank you Jesus......

You may want to know that JC was a terrorist by modern standards... Or you may not want to know that JC was a terrorist by modern standards...

Originally posted by meadfish
Sorry to be sooo wordy, but these are matters of life and death.

Especially the latter. And especially if the Church is ever restored to power.

Jedi_Monk
01-18-2003, 09:59 PM
Jedi Monk, if God chose the first Pope (St Peter) who was a married man, why is it forbidden for the Pope then to marry?
The celibacy of Priests in the Latin Rite is a discipline, not a dogma; it could be changed. Priests in the Eastern Rite can marry. The discipline is based on the writings of St. Paul, who said, "An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided..." (1Cor, 7: 32b-34a)

Also, I was speaking from experience, while I did not personally take part in praying before statues and such because I do not believe we are supposed to. From what was going on, it seemed to contradict the bible.
We do not pray to statues--it's an important distinction to make. We have no delusion that that statue is Mary, or that crucifix is Jesus. They're not idols, they're prayer aids, they help us remember these people who really lived and who are still there for us.

I'm curious as to why we need Mary to go to her Son for us. Can she change his mind?
When you're going through a tough time, do you ask your family and friends to pray for you? That's what this is like; the Catholic Church makes no distinction between the living and dead in this respect, we're all part of one family. And as I said before, "For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears turned to their prayer."

BTW Holy- seperated or set-apart, in the sence that God is set apart from us in that he is perfect and w/o flaw, not seperated in the sence of not being able to effect the things in our life.
The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you." And her cousin, Elizabeth, "filled with the holy Spirit" said "Most blessed are you among women." I believe that would indicate that she is set her apart from you or I.

We are not talking about traditions in general, we're talking about religious brainwash. If religion was outlawed, we would have a much more free society, after the adaption was completed.
And how would you go about outlawing religion? People wouldn't stop worshiping God just because of a law. People, throughout the centuries, have died rather than denounce their faith. They would go underground, and what then? Hunt them down? Imprison them? They wouldn't stop praying. Execute them to rid the world of their traditions? There were no religious groups in 1984, or in Brave New World, besides pseudo religions like the cult of Our Ford.

"I go to youth group youth anti sex league after Mass Two Minutes' Hate"

(Youth anti sex league and Two Minutes' Hate are Orwellian concepts used for the oppression of the population.)
Oh yes, and last week at Mass, the priest held up a picture of so-and-so and we all booed and hissed and screamed obscenities at it :rolleyes:

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by Jedi_Monk
And how would you go about outlawing religion? People wouldn't stop worshiping God just because of a law. People, throughout the centuries, have died rather than denounce their faith. They would go underground, and what then? Hunt them down? Imprison them? They wouldn't stop praying. Execute them to rid the world of their traditions?

No. What every religion throughout all of the ages has feared the most: Educate them. Enlighten them in the ways of the world. Make them see the delusions of their dogma.

Originally posted by Jedi_Monk
There were no religious groups in 1984, or in Brave New World, besides pseudo religions like the cult of Our Ford.

Oh yes, and last week at Mass, the priest held up a picture of so-and-so and we all booed and hissed and screamed obscenities at it :rolleyes:

You are missing the point. The Cult of Our Ford and The Two Minutes' Hate are means of thought control. They are ways to impress a common cause/goal/unity upon a lot of people. Mass serves the exact same function.

The ability to instill mass emotion in a group of people is one of despositm's most used and powerful tools. You see Hussain using it. You see Bush using it. You see the Pope using it...

Because if people get all emotional they forget to think rationally and independently. That is the exact purpose of Mass. The form is, for this purpose, irrellevant. But if you wish to see a Mass that openly promotes intolerance, look at the ones done during the Crusades.

Also, as you say, Orwell didn't try to depict religion. Which makes the fact that Oceania so closely resembles Dark Age Europe all the more curious...

meadfish
01-18-2003, 10:35 PM
My intentions are not to argue with or sway others, but to articulate the basis of christianity (which seems to on trial here.) All responses stem from a biblical point of view so if you do not believe in the bible the responses only fuel your bitterness toward christianity. (again not my intention)


And if those who are lost do not want to be found? If they don't want a mad mindset forced upon them? What must you do then?

You have freewill and are free to roam to where and with whom you choose.

I have never made the choice whether to accept JC. I want to see someone back the Bible with something real before I decide whether to follow him or not.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." -Hebrews 11:1

Remember what Jesus told Thomas...
"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29

When do you feel "God" speaking? When you're on hashish?

I assume this was rhetorical?

"My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" -JC (at least that's what I heard in Religion class)

This was not Jesus sinning, however this is the point at which Jesus became our sin. Jesus could see His Father looking down on Him, but God cannot look upon sin ("Your eyes are too pure to look on evil -Habakkuk 1:13) so at that point God turned away.



Why didn't God just forgive us? If he's omnipotent, and wanted to forgive (or he wouldn't have sent JC, right?), then why all this sacrifice business to begin with? Why not just say: Your sins are forgiven?

Did you read the "nut shell" part?
We could never begin to understand the Omnipotent God, so we could never explain his methods. I only offer the christian reasoning behind what we have FAITH in.

You may want to know that JC was a terrorist by modern standards... Or you may not want to know that JC was a terrorist by modern standards...

I am not sure why you repeated the statement, typo? but.... A terrorist is someone who takes the lives of innocent people for a cause or faith he believes in, Jesus gave his life for sinners who did not believe in Him.... could he be any more opposite?

I will never fault a person for their religion, faith, view, or opinion. Some of these replies do just that, so what is the purpose in them? They are not actions of love, and shouldn't love be the root of any faith or belief? Hmmmm.....

Jedi_Monk
01-18-2003, 11:06 PM
No. What every religion throughout all of the ages has feared the most: Educate them. Enlighten them in the ways of the world. Make them see the delusions of their dogma.
Despite what you might think, not all Christians are uneducated heathens. Christianity is still the single largest religion on earth; we are writers, scientists, doctors, teachers, lawyers and professors.

This was not Jesus sinning, however this is the point at which Jesus became our sin. Jesus could see His Father looking down on Him, but God cannot look upon sin ("Your eyes are too pure to look on evil -Habakkuk 1:13) so at that point God turned away.
Another interpretation is that Jesus wanted to remind the people around him of the 22nd Psalm:
"My God, my God, who have you abandoned me?
...All who see me mock me; they curl their lips and jeer; they shake their heads at me.
You relied on the Lord--let him deliver you; if he loves you, let him rescue you...
...They stare at me and gloat; they divide my garments among them; for my clothes they cast lots..."

Psydan
01-18-2003, 11:08 PM
Quote by ShadowTemplar:
"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Maverick Knight
If you can't ask questions and get logical answers, it's not worth believing in. Everyone should be able to back up their beliefs with arguments. Otherwise, it's not worth believing in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Which excludes all religion, and, basically, is not belief. Belief is thinking that something is right without having proof. If you have proof, then it's knowledge, not belief."

Well Belief is:
v. tr.
1.To accept as true or real: Do you believe the news stories?
2.To credit with veracity: I believe you.
3.To expect or suppose; think: I believe they will arrive shortly.

You don't have to believe something for it to be true, and it doesn't have to be true for you to believe it, but if you do accept it as true, then you are believing in it. You can "know" that something is true, but if you don't believe it, then it doesn't matter.You can have proof,and still believe it.
Plus, why are people saying that Jesus was a terrorist? He healed people, and preached love, and preached against killing. What makes him a terrorist? Now I think you're just trying to make people mad.
Also, I think I'm going to have to agree with what you said meadfish, I think you said a lot of good things.

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 11:09 PM
My intentions are not to argue with or sway others, but to articulate the basis of christianity (which seems to on trial here.)

Nothing but nonsense is on trial here. If you feel that the Bible is on trial, then that must mean that...

All responses stem from a biblical point of view so if you do not believe in the bible the responses only fuel your bitterness toward christianity. (again not my intention)

I do not believe. Period. Not in the Bible, not in anything else. But I fail to see how a silly, old book can infuryate anyone... The actions taken in defence of said silly, old book, on the other hand...

You have freewill and are free to roam to where and with whom you choose.

Is that a promise? How many missionaries do I have to turn away before JC gets the point and directs them to somewhere else? Surely it must be my right as a consumer to turn away all peddlers of the same, faulty good in one move. I can't think of any other corperation that can get away with the kind of "active marketing" (otherwise known as SPAM) that most religions practise.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." -Hebrews 11:1

Remember what Jesus told Thomas...
"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29

So, you are blessed if you believe that communism is good, even though you have never seen it do a good thing (apart from the fact that there are no such things as "good" or "evil")? You are blessed for believing that Hitler was a compassionate man, even though you haven't ever seen him make a compassionate action?

Clearly this "blessing" is that of blindness, useful only for oppression.

I assume this was rhetorical?

Rethorical question: Using a question mark in the place of an exclamation mark. No I wasn't rethorical. If you read "Tales of the Chtulu Mythos" you will see that views not unlike the ones that you advocate are forwarded by hallucinogens. Just asking.

This was not Jesus sinning, however this is the point at which Jesus became our sin. Jesus could see His Father looking down on Him, but God cannot look upon sin ("Your eyes are too pure to look on evil -Habakkuk 1:13) so at that point God turned away.

Whatever. I'll give you that. Still, I see this whole sacrifice business as just a show...

Did you read the "nut shell" part?
We could never begin to understand to Omnipotent God, so we never explain his methods. I only offer the christian reasoning behind what we have FAITH in.

"Christian reasoning". "Compassionate Conservative". "Tolerant religion". "Honest politicians". See where I'm getting? These are big, fat oxymorons.

And spare me the "we could never understand an omnipotent God" bullsnot. Get real.

I am not why you repeated the statement, typo?

No. Not typo. I just thought that it would need to be repeated in order to sink in.

A terrorist is someone who takes the lives of innocent people for a cause or faith he believes in, Jesus gave his life for sinners who did not believe in Him.... could he be any more opposite?

By today's standards, affiliating with known terrorists makes you a terrorist, right. If for no other reason, then for failing to deliver them to the proper authorities. JC had no less than THREE Zealots in his run-together: Judas "Longknife", Jacob "The Truthful", and Simon "The Zealot". The Zealots were a millitant sect, that employed terrorist and gurillia tactics in their fight against the Romans.

If 25% of your closest friends were well known Al Qaida operatives, then I am pretty sure that you would be branded terrorist too.

I will never fault a person for their religion, faith, view, or opinion. Some of these replies do just that, so what is the purpose in them? They are not actions of love, and shouldn't love be the root of any faith or belief? Hmmmm.....

I do not know if you are speaking generally or about me in particular. But as for me: I don't believe that you can find any posts where I attacked you or anyone else. I have been sending some very serious flak in the general direction of your beliefs, but that is not the same thing. I'm attacking your beliefs, not your person.

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by Jedi_Monk
Despite what you might think, not all Christians are uneducated heathens. Christianity is still the single largest religion on earth; we are writers, scientists, doctors, teachers, lawyers and professors.

Yet everything, and I do mean everything that all of these big people have accomplished that has any real value has been purely rational in nature. Their faith is more of a hinderence than a help to progress.

What I see when I look around me is that the vast majority of the Christians that I see have little or no knowledge or skill scientific (just browse this forum for confirmation). They are, in general and with some exeptions, narrow minded and lack the ability to see their own irrellevance in the cosmic picture of things.

"Nothing matters from far enough away." -Gutes, Private, Tanith First. This is a very important understanding. IMO it is rather childish to consider man to be the be-all and end-all of creation. Would the Zerg not be more fit to survive? Or the Tyranids? Or some of the numerous insect species on this planet.

[QUOUE]Originally posted by Jedi_Monk
...They stare at me and gloat; they divide my garments among them; for my clothes they cast lots..." [/QUOTE]

I'll leave the theological debate to you guys. But the part about dividing his garment is funny, because the cloth that covered his dead body has been claimed found at least three different times and places... And if you put together all the so-called "splinters from JC's cross" relics, you get about two whole crosses... So much for the credibility of the Church...

ShadowTemplar
01-18-2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Psydan
Well Belief is:
v. tr.
1.To accept as true or real: Do you believe the news stories?
2.To credit with veracity: I believe you.
3.To expect or suppose; think: I believe they will arrive shortly.

Keywords: Accept, credit, and expect or suppose. All are subjective. Useless crap.

Cold, hard facts are not subjective. Usefull tools. See what I'm getting at? If you hold something to be applicable because that is what empirical evidence suggests, then you are beyond faith. That is sense (percieved by the senses).

Luc Solar
01-19-2003, 04:23 AM
Whoa! This thread really took off while I was away. :D

Now that I've spent half and hour reading all those replies, I want to comment on a few things:

1) Christianity is a religion.
Saying it isn't is like saying: "Tennis isn't a sport, it's a way of life . :rolleyes:
You can call it whatever you want, but tennis is still a sport. Someone's personal view does not change this, no matter how committed they are to tennis.

2) The thing about JC and sin --> I was referring to the things he said while being crusified. Some people think the whole "why have you forsaken me"-stuff was sinning. Personally I think these people should JC a break. He was crusified and dying FFS!! :D

3) Mandolorian wrote somewhere that he believes that newborns, is they die, will go to hell because they are tainted by the original sin.

Picture this: A beautiful baby girl is born in a hospital. The next day a psycho escapes from the nearby mental institute, walks into the hospital and slits the throat of the baby.
What does our beloved God do? --> he condemns the innocent baby to eternal pain and suffering in the flames of hell. ETERNAL PAIN AND SUFFERING because Adam bit the apple.

That is your God? It sure as hell isn't mine!

And another thing - women as priests. What is wrong with that? Aren't men and women equal? Are women really inferior in the eyes of God? Why is that?! :confused:

4) Great post meadfish. :) You made it all sound logical.
But...you are basing the whole argument upon the fact that God lives by the principle of "If you do bad things, you must give me blood or burn in hell forever.

Why does God want our blood? I don't get that. Perhaps it is true. Perhaps he also needs golden trinkets in order to "beam down" on earth.
(There is a lot of literature [check the parapsychology-section at a library near you! :D ] on this subject that explain even the weirdest OT stuff.)


And as an answer to Cjais question I'll say that:

*Probably because I have NOT figured it all out yet. :D *

Luc Solar
01-19-2003, 04:54 AM
A few more comments:

I find it amazingly stupid that the arguments against science (and pro-Bible) are as follows:

Religious person X: well, umm...like okay: explain to me how black holes function and how the whole universe was born in the first place!

Scientist: Those are tough questions, I don't exactly -

Religious person X: HA! GOTCHA! There we have it!! You CAN NOT EXPLAIN CAN YOU!!? HAHA! That proves God really exists and the communion wine turns into Jesus' blood!

Scientist: Umm, I don't really see how you can assume anything of the communion wine just because I am not 100% sure of how black holes function and don't have proof about the creation of the universe.. but if you want, I can always do some tests on the wine to see if it really changes to blood..?

Religious person X: Haha! No need to test the wine. I think we have heard enough already. You can not explain everything which proves that the Bible and all our believes are THE TRUTH

Scientist: So...do you have any kind of proof of any of what you believe in?

Religious person X: Bah! We have GOD's own words as proof. We have a 2k old book that says that everything it says is true. 'nuff said!

Scientist: But the book is written by humans thousands of years ago and everyone who has read it knows it is filled with factual errors and contradicts itself on numerous occasions?

Religious person X: GOD wrote it through humans. Are you doubting the word of GOD? Are *you* calling the almighty GOD a liar? You think *you* are wiser than the all-knowing omnipotent GOD? Blasphemy! You shall burn in HELL you heretic you!

Scientist: Ok. I'll be going now. Nice talking to you.

obi
01-19-2003, 08:33 AM
Let it be known that I have pulled out of this thread because someone (who shall go nameless, but they indeed did post this in this thread) has called my beliefs idiotic. (You know who you are)

I cannot debate with someone who is going to shoot down what I believe, or say it is idiotic.

To whom the person I am speaking:

If you ever, ever, ever, EVER call mine or anyone else's beliefs idiotic again, I will ban you from these forums. Capeshe?

meadfish
01-19-2003, 01:54 PM
Nothing but nonsense is on trial here. If you feel that the Bible is on trial, then that must mean that...

Christianity was what I meant seemed to be on trial, but I would hardly call anyone's convictions and beliefs nonsense ;)

Is that a promise? How many missionaries do I have to turn away before JC gets the point and directs them to somewhere else? Surely it must be my right as a consumer to turn away all peddlers of the same, faulty good in one move

Just as you are free, so are they. Yet they use their freedom to spend time reaching out. The christian in me is even more in awe of a God who would continue to direct His followers to you, when you are so nonreceptive. He must really care about you....Personally I am going to pray that they double their efforts!

So, you are blessed if you believe that communism is good, even though you have never seen it do a good thing (apart from the fact that there are no such things as "good" or "evil")? You are blessed for believing that Hitler was a compassionate man, even though you haven't ever seen him make a compassionate action?

While this may be insightful, it is totally out of context. I listed your quote to which I was responding-

(**your statement: "I have never made the choice whether to accept JC. I want to see someone back the Bible with something real before I decide whether to follow him or not.")

My response: Thomas could not believe Jesus had risen unless he saw Him, and put his finger in the nail hole. He needed proof just as you state you do. Jesus said if you can believe in me without seeing me you are blessed, Hitler was never mentioned ;)

For the record no I am not smoking Hashish

Also, while Jesus did dwell among the "undesireables" of society, they could hardly be called terrorists, I think that is a bit speculative on your part. Twice in this thread you have said Jesus was a terrorist:

I think you overestemate Jesus. After all, he was just a common terrorist. .........and
You may want to know that JC was a terrorist by modern standards... Or you may not want to know that JC was a terrorist by modern standards...

No man on earth has ever displayed more love than He, your accusations are unfounded and ludicrous....

As for asking if I am accusing you of attacking others, no. You have not attacked anyone in your statements except Jesus, and I'm sure He will forgive you. But some poison is leaking out along with the passion that we all display for our view. Make it a discussion or even debate, but not an arguement. That helps noone.

Also a final answer about all this baby goes to hell stuff-

"but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death" -James 1:14,15

Does a baby have evil desire? Of course not. He is born into a sinful nature because of Adam, and will someday sin because of that nature, thus someday will need salvation through Jesus.

Lastly, Obi-Wan13, you should not deprive the rest of us of your insight because of the narrow mindedness of a single individual. Not to insult that person, just an observation. We will all never be the same....we should value anyone's view, even if we don't understand or even agree with it.

I would be interested in knowing....what does everyone reading this believe will happen after you die?

obi
01-19-2003, 02:29 PM
Maybe I over reacted, but the threat will be carried out if the person does not comply.

After death, I will expect to be standing in front of the pearly gates, with a man with a book. He will look into that book and find my name in the book, and I will walk into those gates and see the greatest man that ever walked the Earth. :cool:

meadfish
01-19-2003, 03:02 PM
I hope you stay, only by listening to the criticisms of others do we refine and solidify our faith. We should all keep in mind though that criticize does not mean belittle or insult......

As for your expectation after death, very well said! See you there

;)

Breton
01-19-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13

After death, I will expect to be standing in front of the pearly gates, with a man with a book. He will look into that book and find my name in the book, and I will walk into those gates and see the greatest man that ever walked the Earth. :cool:

And because you belive that, you may not care very much about improving your life before you die. Not talking just to you but to christians in general. They may be alright with being treated unfairly and bad, simply because, they're going to heaven anyway (after their belief). This was one of the reasons why the worker class in Europe in the 17-1800s didn't really do anything about the lousy payment and the terrible conditions at the factories.

"Religion is opium for the people" -Karl Marx

C'jais
01-19-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by meadfish
The christian in me is even more in awe of a God who would continue to direct His followers to you, when you are so nonreceptive. He must really care about you....Personally I am going to pray that they double their efforts!

You sound like you could use some empathy here. How would you react if you were besieged by Muslim missionaries on a daily basis? After all, it's just God directing his followers to "aid" you. There's no point in resisting, because you know Allah is best for you. Oh, you're saying you wouldn't like that? Well this is exactly what you're doing to us.

If you found your culture invaded by Islam, I'm sure you'd react as well. This is what some people did down in the middle east. They got enough of the local Christian missionaries and shot them. I don't approve of this (though Templar likely does) but I can easily understand why they did it.

My response: Thomas could not believe Jesus had risen unless he saw Him, and put his finger in the nail hole. He needed proof just as you state you do. Jesus said if you can believe in me without seeing me you are blessed, Hitler was never mentioned ;)

The point is, communism is great in theory, but the results of it have always been bad. The same goes for Christianity - great and harmless in theory, but it has been responsible for genocides and the killings of innocent women and children.

Also, while Jesus did dwell among the "undesireables" of society, they could hardly be called terrorists, I think that is a bit speculative on your part. Twice in this thread you have said Jesus was a terrorist.

History is written by the victors. Do you also blindly trust every history book you read? The Bible was written some hundred years after the factual events, and it's been through horribly many editions, each more twisted than the last.

That said, Jesus was in fact affiliating with known terrorists (Judas Longknife and the Zealots). While the Bible for good reasons wouldn't depict his followers as terrorists, it's been verified from various other sources.

I would be interested in knowing....what does everyone reading this believe will happen after you die?


Death is The End. I will cease to exist and fade into the background. The world will go on without me, and for that, I am thankful.

Christianity was what I meant seemed to be on trial, but I would hardly call anyone's convictions and beliefs nonsense ;)

What is nonsense? When are we allowed to call stupid, abject idiotic statements ignorant and nonsensical?

Several times it has been mentioned that the Raelians are nutcases. If I walked up to you and stated that pigs can fly and that I'm napoleon, I'm sure you'd call me insane, nonsensical or idiotic. Where is the difference between these and your religion? There isn't any difference. You're just as much a "nutcase" as the Raelians.
You're the same, but you refuse to acknowledge it. You like to think of Christianity as not defying facts and reality. I'm sure the Ralians, Muslims and Buddhists like to do the same thing.

If we can't call dumb beliefs dumb beliefs, then I want this enforced on everyone. If I ever hear people saying you can't trust the Taliban, Eskimos or Raelians because their beliefs are severely wrong and skewed and because they do bad, immoral things, I'll have your ass banned to heaven. I want no distinctions at all or I'll call you the biggest hypocrite that ever walked the earth.

Obi, while I agree we crossed the line (and so did the Christians, but that is of no matter here), we should all be able to distinguish between attacks on a person (flaming) and attacks and disproof of me thinking it's a good idea to kill dogs. Your beliefs are not you. They're just that, beliefs.

Reborn Outcast
01-20-2003, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
When do you feel "God" speaking? When you're on hashish?

Watch where you're going there!!! You offended me and if this were exposed to other Christians they would be very offended also. Feeling God is the most amazing thing a person will ever experience. I HAVE FELT HIM. You can argue this point but DO NOT insult the people who do feel it.

Originally posted by Luc Solar
Picture this: A beautiful baby girl is born in a hospital. The next day a psycho escapes from the nearby mental institute, walks into the hospital and slits the throat of the baby.
What does our beloved God do? --> he condemns the innocent baby to eternal pain and suffering in the flames of hell. ETERNAL PAIN AND SUFFERING because Adam bit the apple.

Ok I said it once and I'll say it again. God does NOT send people to hel UNTIL THEY HAVE A CONCEPT OF RIGHT AND WRONG. This baby does not. Therefore it does not go to hell.

Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
And because you belive that, you may not care very much about improving your life before you die. Not talking just to you but to christians in general. They may be alright with being treated unfairly and bad, simply because, they're going to heaven anyway (after their belief).

Ok now the way we get to heaven is
1) Holy Spirit starts your salvation.
2) You must realize that you're lost.
3) God will give you saving faith.
4) Without repentence there is no salvation.
5) If these four things happen, you are forgiven...
(These 5 things are what helped me come to Christ 7 years ago.)


This DOES NOT mean that once we do these things we are set to go to heaven and can go murder, steal and commit sins. Once we accept this we must live our life FOR GOD which means living the way he wants us to which is not stealing and murdering. We as Christians cannot just accpt this and belive that we are going to heaven. If we live our life for God to the best of our abilities (He will know if we do this or not) after we accept him as our personal savior then we will go to heaven. To break it down...

Acceptance of Jesus as our personal savior + Living our lives for God = Heaven.

Originally posted by Cjais
Obi, while I agree we crossed the line (and so did the Christians, but that is of no matter here), we should all be able to distinguish between attacks on a person (flaming) and attacks and disproof of me thinking it's a good idea to kill dogs. Your beliefs are not you. They're just that, beliefs.

And that's where you're wrong. Beliefs MAKE UP who we are. You don't believe in Jesus or God or Heaven which is why you argue about it so much because it is your person. It is who you are. Obi and I belive in God and Heaven and that affects WHO WE ARE and how we live. Beliefs DO make up who a person is.

So insulting beliefs = insult the person

meadfish
01-20-2003, 12:36 AM
As stated, I have not and will not call someone else's beliefs stupid, idiotic, ignorant, or nonsensical. Nor would I call anyone a "nutcase" or other insulting name for their beliefs.

Throughout this post I have only presented the reasons for my beliefs, and left others to theirs. I don't feel that was reciprocated, but I'll get over it

I can appreciate another's stern unbelief in my faith, but some pass on their rebutting opinion as absolute truth and imply that anyone not agreeing with it is intellectually deficient.

Even worse is to me is that a moderator would do these things instead of filtering them out...which I assumed was a moderator's purpose.

Such is life and it circles back to our "freewill", but whatever happened to common courtesy?

C'jais
01-20-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by meadfish
As stated, I have not and will not call someone else's beliefs stupid, idiotic, ignorant, or nonsensical. Nor would I call anyone a "nutcase" or other insulting name for their beliefs.

I was not referring to you specifically. I've heard many times that the Taliban and the Raelians are nutcases and the world would be a better place without them. Do you agree?

How are these religions different from Christianity? They aren't, they have done the exact same bloody deeds, and they have the exact same amount of proof for their beliefs - none.

I am God. The Lord. Jesus Christ. Am I ignorant, idiotic or nonsensical now? Would you like to see some proof of this bold statement?

As I am God, I will fervently try to convert you to believe in me. Does it sound even more idiotic now? Are you interested in some proof? I have it right here, it says "Cjais is God." Boohoo - it looks like I'm right, and that I have the right to pelt you and everyone else with this. What is the difference between Christianity, Islam and Cjaisism with regards to the factual evidence? Are one of them less false than the other? What stops a non-religious person from believing in me instead of Christ?

Another clue: Are kids who have an imaginary friend immature? Everyone can see it isn't there. Is it a belief to be respected and nurtured - or a silly illusion to be rooted our so they won't be bullied when they grow up? Is my imaginary friend any less false than your Christ? They have the same amount of proof behind them - zip. Nada.

Should we respect the Al-Quada beliefs that the west should go down in flames and that Allah will aid them in this purpose? I'm sure you'd like to see some proof of this as well. I'm sure you think it's a childish, and not to mention dangerous, fantasy that must be rooted out for others to take them seriously and respect them.


Throughout this post I have only presented the reasons for my beliefs, and left others to theirs.

Simply stating that I'm going to burn in hell for my beliefs constitutes an attack on my faith.

I can appreciate another's stern unbelief in my faith, but some pass on their rebutting opinion as absolute truth

Are you saying that Jesus isn't absolute truth? Are you saying that you accept that you could be wrong, that Jesus could in fact just be an immature imaginary play friend? At least I have the sense to see that there is no truth. That I'm only striving to see the least false version of reality. And seeing that version of it requires facts, senses and evidence. Not blind belief.

and imply that anyone not agreeing with it is intellectually deficient.

So you're saying that there's a thing such as "intellectually deficient"? Am I retarded for saying I'm the Lord? Who in the world is retarded? If you can't name anyone, the term becomes void of meaning.

Even worse is to me is that a moderator would do these things instead of filtering them out...which I assumed was a moderator's purpose.

This is a personal attack. What I have done? Stated that your beliefs are false? I'll confess to that. Stated that there's a difference between actions and the person who commits them? I'll glady confess to this as well. Have I called you ignorant? No. Retarded? No. Idiotic? No.

Here is what ShadowTemplar said: Would the statement "I believe pigs can fly" be any less idiotic to you? Is this an assault on you as a person? On the person who believes pigs can fly?

Such is life and it circles back to our "freewill", but whatever happened to common courtesy?

Calling me narrow minded doesn't exactly further the "Holier than thou"-attitude you're currently expressing.

Rogue_Ace
01-20-2003, 05:33 PM
Man I leave for two days and the dam busts :D . I'm glad some of my fellow bros and sisters showed up I was feeling lonely :cool: .

Just a quick thing on the whole evolution vs. creation thing. When it comes down to it we really dont know 100% how the earth was created. God may have used evolution (I believe otherwise) and it could have been literally days. We weren't there. But the same thing goes for those of you that believe in evolution, you werent there either, so you dont know 100%. Theories change over the years, science changes its mind. Evolution is still a theory and not a law. Take the hullaballu when they "created life in a test tube" to simulate how planets formed the basic building blocks of life (Miller-Urey). It was a bunch of crap. While a few building blocks did appear none of the essential building blocks of life were formed, yet in all our biology books that experiment is still used to support evolution. Thats just one of many examples.
they have a whole thred about ev. vs cr. so that may be a better place to have this discussion

C'jais
01-20-2003, 05:47 PM
Evolution is a theory - correct. Theories can be proven. Theories can incorporate laws and tested hypotheses. Calling it a theory does not mean it is any less false as long as it's been proven. And been proved it has. Many times.

That the Genesis happened has not been proven at all. That the Genesis could have happened has not been proved at all either. Do I really have to let you in on the conclusion of this?

But you are correct that we don't know 100% how the earth was created. Could God have had a hand in it? Yes. Could God have created it as in the literal interpretation found in the Bible? No.

If you take the Genesis for a metaphor, that Homo Sapiens evolved from a primate ancestor, that there was no Noah's Ark, that all the species that ever lived on the earth didn't coexist at one time - if you do this, I salute you. Realizing evolution is fact does not mean God doesn't exist. Catholics have realized this. Can "Christians" do this as well?

My real gripe with Christians is that they pass off the fossil record as non-existant. That it's all fake.

Reborn Outcast
01-20-2003, 05:50 PM
Yes and if evolution did happen (which I don't belive it did) and the Big Bang and all that stuff... it would have been a miracle. To have complex lifeforms come into being after many years from a piece of matter that had no volume but infinite mass OR "Nothing", constitutes a miracle. As does the complex life forms like us that followed that after blillions of years.

Mandalorian54
01-20-2003, 06:04 PM
Evolution is silly if you think about it, it makes no logical sense. If your walking down the street and you hear an explosion at the car plant you don't expect a nice new car to drive out, because you know that wont hapen.

for evry action there is a re-action. If a collision takes place, matter is reduced to rubble and sent hurling away from the place of impact. Life doesn't form.

In this whole world evrything is in order, if it were all a coincedence there would be many messed up and strange things, how is it the world has order and natural laws such as gravity.

Evolution does not explain the orgin of the meteor which collided to create life, or the cell that traveled on the meteor, depending on which evolution view you hold.

The only reason evolution is accepted by scientists is because they don't want to believe that they were created by a God who will punish them for doing wrong.

--------------------


How are these religions different from Christianity? They aren't, they have done the exact same bloody deeds, and they have the exact same amount of proof for their beliefs - none.

that's a pretty ignorant thing to say, evry religion is very different.


How do you explain your own existence and the unique complicated world you live in?

evolution? out of chance evrything exists? but wear does the stuff that coincidently created evrything, wear did it come from?

were did the first peice of matter come from?



This is what separates Christianity from evry other religion.
All religion has similar aspects, like GOD, heaven, creation. But most religions say that with hard work, and good works you can go to heaven, but Christianity teaches that we cant do anything to achieve eternal life but God out of mercy and kindness chose some of us to be with him for ever.

All other religions have fault because they were made by men who were at fault. But chrisianity was given to us by GOD so it is perfect and is the only truth.

I mean think logically about it, If you put two people in the same room and tell them to write a book on religion they will end up arguing because they wont agree on much.

but The BIBLE was writen by fourty people over two centuries most of whom never met each other and it does not contradict itself and is historically accurate, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT!!!!

Breton
01-20-2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
Evolution is silly if you think about it, it makes no logical sense. If your walking down the street and you hear an explosion at the car plant you don't expect a nice new car to drive out, because you know that wont hapen.



Firstly, anyone who knows enough of evolution can make logical sense out of it. Secondly, if I told you that over 99.9% of the earth is complete emptiness, then that doesn't sound very logical. But it is true, and has been proven, and no one really doubt it.

Cjais, Luc Solar and ShadowTemplar can comment the rest, so I'll just jump right to

All other religions have fault because they were made by men who were at fault. But chrisianity was given to us by GOD so it is perfect and is the only truth.

Do you know what you are doing now? You are insulting every religion except christianity. There is no real difference between them. Tell me, why can't Allah be true? It does say in a book that he does, so why don't you think that is true? There is only one answer: You have been taught to belive in the christianic god instead of any of the others. There cannot be any other reason.

C'jais
01-20-2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
that's a pretty ignorant thing to say, evry religion is very different.

You're quoting me out of context here.

evolution? out of chance evrything exists? but wear does the stuff that coincidently created evrything, wear did it come from?

were did the first peice of matter come from?

The same place your God came from. No, I don't know, but at least I'm interested in finding out. Petty beliefs won't stop me delving into this delicate matter.

But most religions say that with hard work, and good works you can go to heaven, but Christianity teaches that we cant do anything to achieve eternal life but God out of mercy and kindness chose some of us to be with him for ever.

So you're saying it doesn't take hard work to be a Christian? That if I just surrender now, I'll automatically be let into heaven?

I'll like some proof of people who have entered heaven before i'll go believing in it.

All other religions have fault because they were made by men who were at fault.

This is an attack on other beliefs, and it's not the first one you've made. Not that I care, but some people no doubt do in this place.

But chrisianity was given to us by GOD so it is perfect and is the only truth.

And the Old Testament wasn't given to the Jews by God? The Koran wasn't delivered to Muhammed by God? And show me examples of this truth you're talking about.

but The BIBLE was writen by fourty people over two centuries most of whom never met each other and it does not contradict itself and is historically accurate, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT!!!!

With this (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/) and this (http://www.rice.edu/armadillo/Sciacademy/riggins/things.htm#silly).

The genesis alone should be enough to label the Bible as historically false and contradicting in the extreme.

meadfish
01-20-2003, 06:56 PM
(previously)...
Where is the difference between these and your religion? There isn't any difference. You're just as much a "nutcase" as the Raelians.

I do not perceive a distinction here between being called a nutcase, or those who share my beliefs being nutcases. The statement above says I am a nutcase, which may be true, but it sounds like a flame...

I was not referring to you specifically. I've heard many times that the Taliban and the Raelians are nutcases and the world would be a better place without them. Do you agree?
These things are not in this post, so why attack the people and beliefs in this post?

As for do I agree, I there is no race of people that the world would be better off without - only evil people. There are good and evil in every race, faith, color, country, city, etc. but we are all equal and equally valuable to the earth and whomever reigns over it.


Simply stating that I'm going to burn in hell for my beliefs constitutes an attack on my faith.

I never did and would not say that. So my statement to which this was a response is still true.


Are you saying that Jesus isn't absolute truth? Are you saying that you accept that you could be wrong, that Jesus could in fact just be an immature imaginary play friend? At least I have the sense to see that there is no truth. That I'm only striving to see the least false version of reality. And seeing that version of it requires facts, senses and evidence. Not blind belief.

I believe Jesus is absolute truth. What I am saying is that if someone else doesn't believe it, that's OK! I believe because I have had personal revelation and evidence. Could someone theorize my belief, maybe. Could another provide a logical and scientific reason for the evidence which I have experienced....probably. Does that make it less valid to me? No. It only provides a non believer more reasons not to believe in it.

This is a personal attack. What I have done? Stated that your beliefs are false?

In your opinion they are false. In some others' here they are true. Some responses here are not just factual contradiction, but insulting comparisons to terrorism, again an opinion. Some claim to know of historical fact, but as stated earlier...do you believe everything you read?

These responses have offended at least three people that made it evident, perhaps more that did not.

Later some have back tracked to explain them, but not when they were expressed. And "narrow minded" is the opposite of "open minded". An open minded person would accept that any of these beliefs or faiths are conceivably possible.Some have not shown this open mindedness. Besides that remark was directed to anyone who would insult someone to the point that they would leave the thread.

I have no quarrel with anyone here, I value all opinion. No offense was ever intended. :cool:

C'jais
01-20-2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by meadfish
I do not perceive a distinction between you calling me a nutcase, or those who share my beliefs. I am totally ok with you thinking I am whatever you choose, but your response is that I am

I'm sorry, but I don't get what you're trying to say here. I have not called you a nutcase. And you are of course not "whatever I choose".

You have not heard these things in this post, so why attack the people and beliefs in this post?

Simply, because if a moderator finds it necessary to ban people becuase of not accepting beliefs, I can do too. Only I don't view Christianity as above other beliefs, and it being the sole religion I can't "insult".

I never did and would not say that. So my statement to which this was your response is still true.

Sorry. Another Christian said that, and I'm too lazy to look it up.

But the question is: Will I burn in hell for not accepting Christ? No? Of course?

I believe Jesus is absolute truth. What I am saying is that if you don't believe it, that's OK!

As a lot of Christians in here have expressed, it is obviously not okay with you. I'm not saved. I must repent. I'm subject to conversion.

In your opinion they are false. In some others' here they are true.

Until you have proven they are true, they remain false. Just as if I believe pigs can fly, it doesn't make it true. It's really not my job to disprove these things, it's yours to prove them. Now we're again operating on the maturity level of our little imaginary friend.

Your responses are not just factual contradiction

Where?

but insulting comparisons to terrorism

Not in the slightest "insulting". Saying that Hitler was a bad man is not insulting. Saying Christianity has provided no measurable good to the world is not insulting.

You claim to know of historical fact, but like you stated earlier...do you believe everything you read?

That which can be proven, yes.

Your responses have offended at least three people that made it evident

Which, where and how? I can't see it anywhere.

Later you have back tracked to explain them, but not when you expressed them.

I only "backtracked to explain them" because I thought most people in here were able to understand what I was saying. Sorry if I offended anyone.

And "narrow minded" is the opposite of "open minded".

And "retarded" is the opposite of mature. It's not necessarily an insult, as I know several retarded persons who are good people.

Stop misusing the word "insult".


No offense was ever intended. :cool:

None on my part either :cool:

As I've noticed you don't like replying to my entire posts, does this mean you agree with the rest of what I say? Or do you just like to quote out of context?

obi
01-20-2003, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Cjais


Simply, because if a moderator finds it necessary to ban people becuase of not accepting beliefs, I can do too. Only I don't view Christianity as above other beliefs, and it being the sole religion I can't "insult".

If you are referring to me, you missed completely what I meant. I wasn't going to ban the guy for not having my views, I was going to ban him for insulting them, which is NOT ok with me. Even if he was a christian and insulted those who where not, I would have given the same warning.

However, If you were not referring to me, ignore this post. :)

Rogue_Ace
01-21-2003, 12:14 AM
Could God have created it as in the literal interpretation found in the Bible? No.

Ah but on the contrary he could have. He is God. And being God he can do anything. Now I know that you will not accept that answer, :D big deal, but realise that there are just as many holes in evolutionary theory. Read the book Darwins Black Box it gives hard scientific evidance that supports creationism. Also check this out: http://icr.org/ .

My real gripe with Christians is that they pass off the fossil record as non-existant. That it's all fake.

The reason many of us "pass off the fossil record" is because there are some major flaws in it. There are huge holes in the time line that cannot be explained.

So you're saying it doesn't take hard work to be a Christian? That if I just surrender now, I'll automatically be let into heaven?

Yes being a Christian does take work but that work is enjoyable. Yes if you surrender your life to Christ you will go to heaven no question. But it must be a conversion from the heart not fire insurance.

I'll like some proof of people who have entered heaven before i'll go believing in it.

The thing is that no matter if you believe in it or not it still exists, just like hell. The problem is that you will not realise your error until it is too late :( .

meadfish
01-21-2003, 01:05 AM
So now that we are all firmly seated on our high horses, let me conclued my involvement with this.

With 6+ billion people in this world, I am sure a very small percentile believe exactly as I do. I would be "retarded" (for lack of a better term) to think otherwise. In my zeal to match wit and response I digressed away from the real issue at hand - Luc Solar"s original post.

I am a Christian. It is the faith, religion, belief, or whatever that I firmly believe in. I pray every day so that I can grow closer to God, who I believe to be speaking to me and through me. I pray for myself, I pray for others.

Many, many "christians" are hypocrites - but not everyone who says "I am a christian" is truly one. It is not my job or even my right to say who is or isn't. Having been a youth pastor I can tell you many say they are to fit in, but they know nothing of the faith, the belief, nor have they accepted Jesus as Savior.

So many smart and passionate people in here, that is the best thing I will take from this.

Sorry it took almost a hundred replies to get to that, and even more sorry for any toes stepped on along the way.

Set up a server, invite me, and I will let you DFA me to your heart's content. :swrd2:

Now, I think I will resume the task that brought me to this forum in the first place: How do you make your name invisible on the duel list?:confused:

C'jais
01-21-2003, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by meadfish
Now, I think I will resume the task that brought me to this forum in the first place: How do you make your name invisible on the duel list?:confused:

I recall it being done by simply making a [space] or a "^" as a name.

I'd advise you don't do this though. You tend to come off a prick, instead of the mysterious black knight most people feel like when they're doing this. Similarily, it's bad etiquette to name yourself "Padawan" when you're obviously experienced in the game - anyone with an ounce of brainpower can see you're not trying to be funny or masquerading, just an arsehole.

If you really don't want people to know your "real" nickname, simply use your imagination and come up with another. Examples I've used include Harry the Hairy Horse, Punky the Blue Panda, Fluffy the Pink Wabbit, Gendy, Entropy, Max Gay etc.

As for the Creationist comments, continue that discussion in the designated thread (Here (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89510))

meadfish
01-21-2003, 07:49 PM
Thanks for the tip Cjais, I was curious more than anything. I think I'll pass on the creationism thread, I'm exausted from this one! :whacked:

Btw, I think I have lost to ALL those nicknames you listed ;)

See ya all in the ring....

TheWhiteRaider
01-22-2003, 02:17 AM
How many pick up Jesus in the middle of their lives without haven been presented to him as childs? [/B]

Ah hem.

Tony Stagner At Age 27
Sharon Stagner At age 24
James Perlof At Age ???[He was a hippy in the 70's]

Those are a few people I know personaly.

ShadowTemplar
01-23-2003, 12:08 PM
According to the rules (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64362) of this place its users are prohibited to:

in any way, insult (or "flame") someone else on the board. People may not be insulted just because their opinion differs from your own. Flaming includes calling people names, insulting them in any way or saying offensive things to them. (Own italisation, Templar.)

The statment that: "(Your) faith/belief is nonsense/idiocy" shoots at the faith or belief, not the person. Therefore it is not "insulting someone". It is insulting something (belief). I have called no names. And "saying offensive things" has not so far been interpreted as posting:

1) Facts. (http://www.betterhumans.com/Features/Columns/Transitory_Human/column.aspx?articleID=2002-12-15-2)

2) Advertising for genocidal organisations:

I don't mean to sound ignorant or high and mighty (and I don't want to offend anyone) but it is above all other religions because it is the only one that leads to Heaven. All others do not.

Reborn Outcast

3) Bashing other people over the heads with arbitrary statments that their beliefs are false:

And yes my GOD is real yours is not!

Mandolorian54

4) Accuse people of supporting undemocratic, theocratic ways of life:

Mandalorian 54, you should move to Indonesia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, China, and other Middle Eastern countires. Sounds like you really would love to live at those places.

FunClown

5) Debasing or ridiculing the works of the great men and women whom we owe our entire technological level, liberty, and democracy. Insulting the memories of great people like Darwin, Newton, Voltaire, Montesque, and the rest of the crowd (just flip through one of the "Science vs. Creationism" threads to see examples of this).

I personally find this very offensive, but I don't report it to MODs, because I find it silly to run crying to the MODs whenever someone challenges your way of life. Rather I try to point out why it is wrong to challenge rationalism (but then again, I actually have basis for my arguments).

So, to sum up: There are three kinds of flaming:

1) Name calling.

2) Insulting someone.

3) Posting offensive things.

1) I never did that. If you think that I did, then quote me.

2) I never insulted anyone. I threw flak after a concept.

3) If (big if) calling someone's faith/opinion/political standpoint/etc. silly/foolish/ect. is cause for a ban, then everyone I mentioned above should have been banned (notice the past tense).

Therefore this place would be in a fine mess if (in more than one sense of the word) overzealous MODs ban people for ridiculeing faith/religion. You know who I am talking to [/sarcasm].

q.e.d.

C'jais
01-23-2003, 12:28 PM
As expected, I concur with ShadowTemplar here.

Not everyone who voices a loud and dissenting opinion is a troll.

If you don't like to experience totally opposite views on religion than yours, get out. Don't visit this forum, where it's most of all bound to happen.

As for insults, it doesn't work the way you want it to. "My trust in Windows is a part of who I am". Not. You can insult my favoured brand of keyboards, and I'll be able to take it as an insult based on your definitions.

Seperate beliefs and self. Seperate insults and objective criticism.

If you ever ban someone here on the basis of insulting religions, I'll be the first to leave, and you'll find this forum mod-less.

Reborn Outcast
01-23-2003, 12:49 PM
Shadow and Cjais I don't know if you even bothered to read my post at the top of page 3 but I replied about a belief thing...

Beliefs MAKE UP who we are. You don't believe in Jesus or God or Heaven which is why you argue about it so much because it is your person. It is who you are. Obi and I belive in God and Heaven and that affects WHO WE ARE and how we live. Beliefs DO make up who a person is.

Can you argue with that? I dont' see how MY faith and beliefs aren't a part of myself.

And Shadow in fact you did insult Christians by saying this...



Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
When do you feel "God" speaking? When you're on hashish?

Hmm that sounds like an insult to people who have had an experience with God.

C'jais
01-23-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Can you argue with that? I dont' see how MY faith and beliefs aren't a part of myself.

What is a part of ourselves? My chosen eyeliner? My car?

It's false reasoning. It's an unfounded claim. It won't do.

Idols come and go, but your self will never cease to exist (right?).

ShadowTemplar
01-23-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Shadow and Cjais I don't know if you even bothered to read my post at the top of page 3 but I replied about a belief thing...

Can you argue with that? I dont' see how MY faith and beliefs aren't a part of myself.

How are your opinions different from yourself? Your political standpoint? Yet if I can prove that your opinion is idiotic (idiotic=Showing foolishness [foolishness=Lacking or exhibiting a lack of good sense or judgment; silly: foolish remarks. according to www.dictionary.com] or stupidity. according to www.dictionary.com), what then?

Faith is a lack of "good sense" (sense: A perception or feeling produced by a stimulus; sensation: a sense of fatigue and hunger. www.dictionary.com), since it ignores the senses (science).

Therefore faith is foolish.

So exhibiting faith is exhibiting foolishness.

And exhibiting foollishness is idiocy.

Therefore any comment exhibiting faith is an idiotic comment, any belief exhibiting faith is an idiotic belief.

q.e.d.

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
And Shadow in fact you did insult Christians by saying this...

Hmm that sounds like an insult to people who have had an experience with God.

I give you this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,869273,00.html)

"Neardeath" or "neargod" experiences are both caused by the release of hallucinogens in the brain (fact). So when you experienced your "contact" you were either:

1) Suffering from severe stress or trauma.

or

2) On some heavy **** (crack, pot, or religion* (remember this (http://www.betterhumans.com/Features/Columns/Transitory_Human/column.aspx?articleID=2002-12-15-2) before you go through the ceiling)).

*The opiate of the people, according to Marx.

obi
01-23-2003, 06:22 PM
You are pushing me. I did NOT threaten a ban because you have a different view. I DID threaten a ban because you are INSULTING a view. That is NOT accepted, as I have Clearly stated. One more, you are out of here.


Got me?

Also Cjais, you should not encourage others to insult other's beliefs. Disagreeing with someone is different then insulting their beliefs. As someone said earlier in this thread, beliefs=the person, for which I agree with that statement.

Posted by Cjais

I'll be the first to leave.You'll find this forum mod-less



It will not be mod-less, trust me there. That "I am going to quit" attitude doesn't flow well with me. Quit if you want to. Stay if you want to. Either way, I will not stand for someone insulting another persons beliefs. I do not insult non-christians.I haven't done so in this entire thread. I would like the same courtesy.

ninja
01-23-2003, 07:16 PM
i have my own theory of christianity. and this may upset christains. i am not a christian. anyone who does'nt rush out to accept jesus as their savior is automaticly condemed to hell, nomatter what your moral character is. even if i were to live my life by the ten comandments, i dont lie, i dont steal, cheat, kill ect. if i dont believe in god do i still go to hell? the answer in the bible is a big fat yes. of course if your a christain who has commited violations against god, you can still accept jesus after your crimes and still go to heaven. what sence does that make? apperantly the christain god is just so vain and insecure he has no choice but to burn your flesh in hell for all eternity. fortunately for murderers rapists and child molesters if you choose to be born again and accept jesus in your heart the christain god is very kind and loving. christains can learn a thing or two from a religeous leader. buddha explained to others that human suffering was caused by earthly wants. suffering can be ended by ridding the self of wants. anybody who disagreed with buddha was allowed to do so without buddha continuing to bother them. he did'nt insist on knocking on the doors of those who disagreed with him, to distribute little drawings he made of them suffering in hell for all eternity. he did'nt participate in the writing of a book in which he was depicted as a vengful buddha who enjoyed smighting the wicked with his magic super powers that could flat out the earth, or cause global wide pestulance. i have studyed many religions and found only buddhism to be my only calling. i used to be a christian years ago, and refused to accept certain things. buddha is not a "GOD" he speaks of a god, the creator. but to me buddhism is the universal cosmic brotherhood.

BCanr2d2
01-24-2003, 08:03 AM
Beliefs=oneself is actually more of a twisting of words, a long accepted figure of speech that people use.

I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow, by your logic, if you said it didn't, it would be attacking me directly. Extreme, but it is what some of you are trying to say.

Your beliefs are something that you have acquired in life, rather than "belonging" to you. It is a conscious decision on how to interpret things, so it is no different to that of learning maths or geography.

Am I meant to be not accepted because I don't believe in Christianity, or due to that I am no longer of god's image? Do the four surgical screws in my knee no longer make me "pure"? After all, I am no longer all human.......

C'jais
01-24-2003, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
You are pushing me. I did NOT threaten a ban because you have a different view. I DID threaten a ban because you are INSULTING a view. That is NOT accepted, as I have Clearly stated. One more, you are out of here.

Insulting a belief, or insulting a person? We've got the English language and the forum rules on our side here, and if you do decide to go through with this, you'll have to ban people who have insulted my beliefs and others, as well. In fact, if you're so concerned about this, you should have banned a dozen people in the swamp who apparently could pass under this rule.

Do what you want, but I'll truly call every Christian a hypocrite if you do start to ban people for this.

Also Cjais, you should not encourage others to insult other's beliefs.

And where did I do just this? You should have known that when you created this forum, it'd attract immature zealots from all over America. I can't ban or do anything about them.

I'm simply stating that if you don't like the idea of nasty views on religions getting thrown in your face, don't visit this forum. But we are responsible, mature adults in here, and we generally do back up our claims with sound proof. If I state Christianity is a disgusting, murderous organization, I can prove that with real numbers and numbers of cultures and civilizations it has destroyed or banished. You can try to refute this by saying that those who did it weren't Christians (and I can accept that), but in the end, it was the same organization who contributed to it. Like communism.

Disagreeing with someone is different then insulting their beliefs. As someone said earlier in this thread, beliefs=the person, for which I agree with that statement.

You agree, yes. It doesn't make it true. But you're in charge, so you can really do whatever you want.

We've worked our way down towards the level where kids argue over which console is better - Xbox or PS2? Those are beliefs as well, a bit smaller than full blown religions, but we should respect them as well, no? Only when we start getting into a rational discussion comparing prices, processor speeds and save game choices can we truly assert which console is better, and the same goes for religion.

That "I am going to quit" attitude doesn't flow well with me.

It was not so much a "I'll damn well quit if this continues", as much as it was an observation on the fact that I'm now the only Mod assigned to this forum (barring the Supermods, o' course).

Reborn Outcast
01-24-2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by BCanr2d2
I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow, by your logic, if you said it didn't, it would be attacking me directly. Extreme, but it is what some of you are trying to say.

No we're trying to say taht if I say that your stupid for believing that the sun will rise or that that belief is stupid... thats insulting the person.

C'jais
01-24-2003, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
No we're trying to say taht if I say that your stupid for believing that the sun will rise or that that belief is stupid... thats insulting the person.

That didn't make sense at all.

So I'm insulting the person if I prove he's dead wrong?

I'm insulting your beliefs if I prove you're dead wrong?

Reborn Outcast
01-24-2003, 12:49 PM
No Cjais, I'm trying to say that if I call your belief stupid, I'm insulting you. Also I'm insulting you if I say you're stupid for believing it.

C'jais
01-24-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
No Cjais, I'm trying to say that if I call your belief stupid, I'm insulting you. Also I'm insulting you if I say you're stupid for believing it.

No you're not. On both accounts.

But I'll call your dubious debating technique stupid if you don't present evidence of me being stupid or living in a fantasy world.

A question to the mods: Would you accept if we went after the organizations? Can I say the Christian Church has done horrible, nonsensical deeds, and that its beliefs are abject unreal and disproven long ago? Is that okay?

Reborn Outcast
01-24-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Cjais
No you're not. On both accounts.
Do you mean "No you're not insulting me" or "No you're not rying to say that"?

Luc Solar
01-24-2003, 01:34 PM
OK THIS IS MY THREAD AND HERE'S HOW IT'S GONNA BE!

Uhmm..on second thought...I'll try a different approach. :)


My daddy once told me -

....My daddy once told me -

STOP LAUGHING and pay attention!

*ahem*

My daddy once told me:

"Feel free to disagree with people's views, but remember: only the issues are fighting, not the people!"

I agree with Cjais.
We should be able to debate things without people feeling insulted every time someone says something they don't like or agree on.

It was very, very close that I didn't start a new thread a while ago when my entire post was edited, because someone couldn't handle the fact that I used the N-word in a 100% non-racial context. That thread would have surely been locked in no time. It would have been a major pain in the mod's ass. :p

But I also agree with Obi-van13 and some others. There's no need to be rude. At some points that fine line was crossed.

Saying that you "do not believe in something that can't be proven" is much better than saying: "how can anyone be so retarded, so damn stupid that they believe in ridiculous, idiotic crap like that?!".

I'm sure you get my point. Meadfish said it already, but I'll say it again: No need to be rude. :)

C'jais
01-24-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
No Cjais, I'm trying to say that if I call your belief stupid, I'm insulting you.

Let's see... suppose I postulated the earth is flat. It's a belief, and an obviously false one at that. Should I stand insulted if you called me stupid for believing in such a false postulate? Of course, if you don't present the way the earth really exists, I won't go about believing you - I need real facts to be convinved.

Also I'm insulting you if I say you're stupid for believing it.

Am I stupid for believing the earth is flat? A resounding "yes".

Can you go about calling me stupid without presenting some proof of it? Of course not.

Let's try another example: Am I stupid for believing you're being mind controlled by kung fu fighting squirrels from the planet of Gmekzrooos? Can I prove you're wrong? Is it obvious that there's no way to prove it, but that it is equally obvious there's no need to believe that?

You provide the answers on this one.

EDITAGE: Well put, Luc.

Can I call you Jean-Luc? :p It sounds better that way :D

Luc Solar
01-24-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Cjais
Can I call you Jean-Luc? :p It sounds better that way :D

Well, lemme think about that... umm....Hell no! :D

That sounds too bald. It still got a few more hairy years ahead of me. :)

OMFG! eye_m teh l337 JEDI!! PH34R!!! :D

obi
01-24-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by Cjais
Insulting a belief, or insulting a person? We've got the English language and the forum rules on our side here, and if you do decide to go through with this, you'll have to ban people who have insulted my beliefs and others, as well. In fact, if you're so concerned about this, you should have banned a dozen people in the swamp who apparently could pass under this rule.

Give me names, and I will be more the happy to send out a warning PM to the ones who have insulted your beliefs.


posted by Cjais
And where did I do just this?


"I agree with ShadowTempler, as to be expected"

Right there.



posted by Cjais

You should have known that when you created this forum, it'd attract immature zealots from all over America. I can't ban or do anything about them.

If they are doing something to insult the way you live,or what you believe yes you can. Inform someone with a higher power on the boards, and the case will be looked in to.


You agree, yes. It doesn't make it true. But you're in charge, so you can really do whatever you want.

I am surprised you don't agree with me there.Do you live by how you believe?


We've worked our way down towards the level where kids argue over which console is better - Xbox or PS2? Those are beliefs as well, a bit smaller than full blown religions, but we should respect them as well, no? Only when we start getting into a rational discussion comparing prices, processor speeds and save game choices can we truly assert which console is better, and the same goes for religion.

You have a point there.



It was not so much a "I'll damn well quit if this continues", as much as it was an observation on the fact that I'm now the only Mod assigned to this forum (barring the Supermods, o' course).

My mistake, I misunderstood your post. :cool:

C'jais
01-25-2003, 12:11 PM
All forgiven Obi.

I'm seriously thinking about closing this thread if it continues this way. It'll only serve to rip up old wounds and create deep hatred and resentment among the forum goers.

ninja
01-25-2003, 01:57 PM
religion is too big and too deep an issue. this should have never been a thread. with religion there will always be clashes.

C'jais
01-25-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by ninja
religion is too big and too deep an issue. this should have never been a thread. with religion there will always be clashes.

If you cannot question that which your fellow humans go about believing, we will truly have some great clashes.

The thread was a valid one. If another like it is created in the future, I'm not going to stop that either.

I value the freedom of speech much greater than that of a self-censored, immature forum. Make no mistake.

But this really is starting to degenerate into petty hatreds for each other.

ninja
01-25-2003, 02:17 PM
see, i have my own views on certain religions, but i dont go around insulting the users in the forum. i can handle criticizm, but lashing out at others thats not cool.

obi
01-25-2003, 02:17 PM
Agreed, Cjais.

As I recall someone saying somewhere,

"Religion is good. Religions are bad."

I find this a valid and logical remark.

Reborn Outcast
01-25-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by ninja
see, i have my own views on certain religions, but i dont go around insulting the users in the forum. i can handle criticizm, but lashing out at others thats not cool.

Was that an insult to Cjais? He didn't do anything except put up an arguement which is exactly what this thread was supposed to do.


And obi I don't quite get that quote lol.

ninja
01-25-2003, 04:30 PM
@ reborn outcast. see its guys like you who start trouble. instagating stuff. first if you dont know the flavor of the kool-aid. second how the hell did my reply indicate i was insulting cjais. me talking about not insulting others in this forum was a concern from someone who replyed earlyer. i just went on to showing a good example. state your views but not insult others. insulting others is not cool. i was'nt even speaking to cjais. i was speaking to all. get your info right before you say something about me.

Reborn Outcast
01-25-2003, 05:09 PM
Ok ninja I admit I went overboard a little. But just wondering, did you read all 120 posts in this thread before you posted or did you just read the last page... just wondering, I'm not trying to start something.

Luc Solar
01-25-2003, 05:40 PM
Hahaha..

It seems no-one really remembers anymore what this thread was supposed to be about. :D

Somehow it turned into an argument about whether or not Christianity is dumb.

The point of the thread was the alledged hypocrisy of "christians".

But by all means - don't let that little detail bother you... :D

Reborn Outcast
01-25-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
The point of the thread was the alledged hypocrisy of "christians".

But by all means - don't let that little detail bother you... :D

Yes and I'm sorry to say that for the most part it is true. From the song, "What If I Stumble" -DC Talk

The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians. Who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and then walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.

So true and yet so sad, I admit that I still do that sometimes, all Christians do. :(

obi
01-25-2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
all Christians do. :(

No, many do. Not all. ;)

I am not trying to be self-rightouss, but I don't...

and obi i don't quite get that quote

I meant that having one person believe something is good. However, put him in a room with someone who doesn't,give them a pair of boxing gloves,cause it's most likely gonna turn out bad.

meadfish
01-25-2003, 09:15 PM
HA!! You thought I was gone! I am, but I wanted to clear up one other item.......Catholics are definitely NOT being mind controlled by kung fu fighting squirrels from the planet of Gmekzrooos!!

Sorry, had to. :D

C'jais
01-25-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by meadfish
HA!! You thought I was gone! I am, but I wanted to clear up one other item.......Catholics are definitely NOT being mind controlled by kung fu fighting squirrels from the planet of Gmekzrooos!!


Nice try ;)

Prove it :)

Reborn Outcast
01-25-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
No, many do. Not all. ;)

I am not trying to be self-rightouss, but I don't...

I meant every once in a while, not consistantly. :)

Luc Solar
01-26-2003, 04:32 AM
Originally posted by meadfish
Catholics are definitely NOT being mind controlled by kung fu fighting squirrels from the planet of Gmekzrooos!!

Cjais is right. If you don't have any scientifical proof to back that up... :rolleyes:

And it's Gmeczroosh, not "Gmekzrooos"! :swear:

:D

Crazy_Ivan
01-28-2003, 09:57 PM
Im a Christian...born and raised....and I know it gets incredibly boring sometimes.....and it seems the lectures are cyclical. Most seem to go in a circle BUT

What you put in it is what you get out of it.

Enough Said.

vegietto
02-02-2003, 08:56 AM
i am a true christian i just don't go to church, well i do go sometime but not much andi do read the bible but not very often as i should but i am a true christian

Prometheus
02-06-2003, 03:38 AM
I won't hash out the details of Christian validity as I feel God can do that for us ;)

Glad to see people arent afraid to show there beliefs here. The gaming community as a whole sits behind an image of non attachment to anything remotely resembling God.

For those who care to look I come from here -

www.christiangaming.org/redeemed

we are a Christian JO clan and have a great community. I dont need to advertise anymore.

Its easy to become caught up in worldy ways by denying God... but its good to see most of you dont have any issues with that sort of pride. :)

God bless - happy gaming

C'jais
02-06-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Prometheus

Its easy to become caught up in worldy ways by denying God... but its good to see most of you dont have any issues with that sort of pride. :)

Caught up in worldy ways?

Explain yourself.

And it's imspossible to deny something that hasn't been proven, that isn't fact and that has not yet been connected with the objective world.

Denying facts, on the other hand, can easily be done.

Prometheus
02-06-2003, 03:18 PM
lol ... denial is comparative to simple non belief or acceptance.

People denied that the world was round all the while not having tangiable evidence that a single person had fallen off the edge. is is NOT impossible to deny something that hasnt been proven. you really need to redefine deny or denial bub otherwise you'll stumble over your own fallacies.

The denied the fact that it IS round because the were able to explain that concept way with something more "logical" ... the same way people find ways to explain the non existance of God.

While it would never be in my best interest to force someone like yourself to accept the existance of God, conceptually we are to desire God and to have faith in his existance and plan for mankind.

By all means i am no shepard .... but i have come from a secular life of always asking God to show up ...to a life where I realize he exists and waits those who seek him faithfully. :)


As far as "worldy ways" thats definately a subjective term that people like myself shouldnt throw around. but I think my perception of it is simply living life according to mans law ..or mans social norms ... rather than Gods Law. Sometimes I justify things that are accepted in society ..but would be probably not be accepted by God. In that case I become REAL sinner because I know right from wrong. but thats between God and I. ;)

shukrallah
02-27-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
Sorry Obi, I was thinking aloud. I meant what I said though, I truly do believe that there aren't any other real ways to become Christian these days. That's just how it has always seemed to me, here in heathen Denmark. Over here, anyone who calls himself a Christian has probably never prayed, read the Bible or gone to church apart from the usual ceremonies. Not kidding. They simply believe there's a higher power and leave it at that.

But hey, if it's different conditions over there, I'll gladly listen.


I pray every night, something different. ive read the entire bible, and still read it every day. i go to church almost every sunday. im a christian. and im going to stay a christian no matter what.

and your wronge about your 2 ways, people become a christian. i wasnt like that....i read the bible before i even knew what a christian was...so i already knew stuff, and was kind of following God but not really, then my mom became a christian, and she told me the next day, and i decided to become a christian too.

Breton
02-28-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by Prometheus
lol ... denial is comparative to simple non belief or acceptance.


Let me remind you that you are denying God's non-existance.

While it would never be in my best interest to force someone like yourself to accept the existance of God, conceptually we are to desire God and to have faith in his existance and plan for mankind.

Why? What practical use does this have for the community? And what has God done for us anyway? Don't just say he created everything, because there is no reason to belive that, and that is totally a statement based on lack of knowledge of the nature around us. Who invented the car? Humans, not God. Who are making it possible to visit other planets? Humans, not God. Why give all the credit to a guy that hasn't done anything?

Ok, let's see it this way: I am a God and am all-powerful. I made the flowers, the bees, animals, planets, everything. And now I have written it down on a book. You shall belive in me or despair, because I am right and everyone who disagrees with me are wrong. Now, tell me what is the difference between me and your God? Why is it easier to belive in the other god than in me?

In that case I become REAL sinner because I know right from wrong. but thats between God and I.

There is no right or wrong. I hate the fact that people belives right and wrong exists. You have no idea how many lives that statement have costed, how much misery it has created, and the whole right-wrong thing can be killed with logic. But if anyone here still belives in right and wrong, then tell me: What is right? What is wrong?

Crazy_Ivan
03-01-2003, 02:08 PM
The bible is a book. "Good start" you all say. But you have to remember about the Old Testament and well the New Testament that: Jesus always told parables. As a Christian, I also believe that the Bible itself is a set of parables that are there to guide us or better ourselves. One time on a trip with my church (As long as im Christian and have a relationship with God, the name doesnt matter), This girl sitting next to me refered to the Bible as "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth". Now your probably thinking, "hmm this seems strange," but if you think about it for a long enough time, it helps us better ourselves.

The story of Adam and Eve tells us that we should listen to God.
The story of Noah tells us that we should trust in God.
The story of Jonah and the Whale teach us that God is always there. All of these examples were from the Old Testament.

Now, about Organized Religion. Its had its ups and downs as a whole. Im not Catholic, but I realize they have some pros and cons like everything. I dont believe you can worship a Pope, when that position was more of a political nature ages ago. The Great Schism, an event hundreds of years ago, was where there were actually 2 popes! One French Pope was elected and he moved the Papacy to Avanion France. After some years everyone got angry and elected ANOTHER pope to reside in Italy. Each pope denounced each other as "The AntiChrist." In short, there are problems in how we, as humans, interpret teachings.

It may seem like in ranting Catholics, I truly tried not to. I was just using The Great Schism as an example to show that organized religion can foul up at times. But we must always remember that Interpretation of God's Teachings is what differs between the many different forms of Christianity.

I am a devout Christian that does not hide behind Jesus as a mask. I don't preach about sinning and then go commit one. Sin is something that may be unavoidable. But God teaches us that Sin is forgiveable. But Guilt is the downside to a sin. God also entrusts us with a conscience. We have the power to decide right and wrong. If we choose poorly, we are forgiven by our Creator, but Guilt haunts us. So, in short, some Christians are hypocrites. I may be sometimes, but I go on living a life and repenting what I have done. Im sorry for harping like this but thanks for listening.

Reborn Outcast
03-01-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Let me remind you that you are denying God's non-existance.

Isn't that circular reasoning which you so hate?

Godd explanation Crazy.

C'jais
03-01-2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Isn't that circular reasoning which you so hate?

It is not circular reasoning to see there's no proof of God's existence. Which means there's no reason to believe he exists.

Godd explanation Crazy. ī

While it was a fine theological speech, we can't use it for anything.

What the Bible says is irrelevant, as it cannot prove itself.

The story of Adam and Eve tells us that we should listen to God.

God cannot be measures or observed, meaning there's no reason to believe in him.

The story of Noah tells us that we should trust in God.

The fairy tale of Noah, while uplifting, is simply not true and can thus be discarded except as a moral reminder (which we can easily get from other, less false sources).

The story of Jonah and the Whale teach us that God is always there.

You can't survive in a whale's stomach, no matter what the Bible tells you, making it in fact dangerous to believe, as you'll be more inclined to wait for God to come to the rescue.

There's no air. There's no water. There's a very strong acid in the stomach that will immediately start to decompose and digest you.

All of these examples were from the Old Testament.

Of all the books I've read, the Old testament is the most bloody, self-defeating load of poodoo I've ever laid my eyes on. The new testament is alright, if the "Revelation" part of it is discarded. Otherwise it's the same, crappy, false and hypocritical dung.

obi
03-01-2003, 07:01 PM
Actually, the Bible never says a whale swallowed Jonah. It just said a "big fish."

I don't know if that means much, just a small fact to post.

munik
03-01-2003, 09:01 PM
Another small fact is that while the Bible may not have said a whale swallowed Jonah, Jesus sure as sh*t did(matthew 12:40).

Oh, wait.....yep, after rechecking the facts, I can confirm matthew is a book in the Bible.


Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Reborn Outcast
03-01-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by munik
Another small fact is that while the Bible may not have said a whale swallowed Jonah, Jesus sure as sh*t did(matthew 12:40).

Oh, wait.....yep, after rechecking the facts, I can confirm matthew is a book in the Bible.


Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Umm there is a book in the Old Testament that is called Jonah :eek: and in CHAPTER 1 IT TALKS ABOUT JONAH BEING SWALLOWED BY THE FISH. So umm... please read before you post.


Jonah 1 The word of the LORD came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2 "Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me."
3 But Jonah ran away from the LORD and headed for Tarshish. He went down to Joppa, where he found a ship bound for that port. After paying the fare, he went aboard and sailed for Tarshish to flee from the LORD .
4 Then the LORD sent a great wind on the sea, and such a violent storm arose that the ship threatened to break up. 5 All the sailors were afraid and each cried out to his own god. And they threw the cargo into the sea to lighten the ship.
But Jonah had gone below deck, where he lay down and fell into a deep sleep. 6 The captain went to him and said, "How can you sleep? Get up and call on your god! Maybe he will take notice of us, and we will not perish."
7 Then the sailors said to each other, "Come, let us cast lots to find out who is responsible for this calamity." They cast lots and the lot fell on Jonah.
8 So they asked him, "Tell us, who is responsible for making all this trouble for us? What do you do? Where do you come from? What is your country? From what people are you?"
9 He answered, "I am a Hebrew and I worship the LORD , the God of heaven, who made the sea and the land."
10 This terrified them and they asked, "What have you done?" (They knew he was running away from the LORD , because he had already told them so.)
11 The sea was getting rougher and rougher. So they asked him, "What should we do to you to make the sea calm down for us?"
12 "Pick me up and throw me into the sea," he replied, "and it will become calm. I know that it is my fault that this great storm has come upon you."
13 Instead, the men did their best to row back to land. But they could not, for the sea grew even wilder than before. 14 Then they cried to the LORD , "O LORD , please do not let us die for taking this man's life. Do not hold us accountable for killing an innocent man, for you, O LORD , have done as you pleased." 15 Then they took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea grew calm. 16 At this the men greatly feared the LORD , and they offered a sacrifice to the LORD and made vows to him.
17 But the LORD provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was inside the fish three days and three nights.


Theres you go. The story of Jonah in the Old Teatament

munik
03-02-2003, 12:03 AM
Yeah, no sh*t. Thanks for pointing that out.

Read the passage I listed, then read the post before mine which I was refering to, then re-read the post I made the first time, then, very slowly, go back and repeat the process.

Now, the part where he says its a fact that it doesn't say whale in the bible, when in fact it does say whale in the bible...yeah, you know the post I'm talking about, you're probaly re-reading it right now...well, THAT IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

Fer christs sake, he said the Bible, not the Book of Jonah.

Don't get all uppity and make put you back in your place again. It embarasses both of us. Now maybe you should take your own advice:So umm... please read before you post.

Reborn Outcast
03-02-2003, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by munik
Yeah, no sh*t. Thanks for pointing that out.

Read the passage I listed, then read the post before mine which I was refering to, then re-read the post I made the first time, then, very slowly, go back and repeat the process.

Now, the part where he says its a fact that it doesn't say whale in the bible, when in fact it does say whale in the bible...yeah, you know the post I'm talking about, you're probaly re-reading it right now...well, THAT IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

Fer christs sake, he said the Bible, not the Book of Jonah.

Don't get all uppity and make put you back in your place again. It embarasses both of us. Now maybe you should take your own advice:

Ok now I don't want to start something but....


FROM THE NIV BIBLE: (This is the verse you pointed out)

Matthew 12:40 - For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


So... yea

munik
03-02-2003, 12:24 AM
Well, I referenced the American Standard Version, and the Revised Standard Version. Apparently, the Bible says whatever you want it to say, as long as you have the right version.

Aside from the absurdity of going in and surviving inside the stomach of any animal, I don't even think there is a fish that has a stomach large enough to contain an adult man. So, if it's a whale, that's at least partially feasible, but if it's only a fish, unfeasible.

obi
03-02-2003, 09:18 AM
I was referencing to the King James Version. Also, stop arguing so aggresively, guys. No reason to hate eachother over a simple disagreement on something religious. Too much of that is already in the world.

Crazy_Ivan
03-02-2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
What the Bible says is irrelevant, as it cannot prove itself.

God cannot be measures or observed, meaning there's no reason to believe in him.

The fairy tale of Noah, while uplifting, is simply not true and can thus be discarded except as a moral reminder (which we can easily get from other, less false sources).

You can't survive in a whale's stomach, no matter what the Bible tells you, making it in fact dangerous to believe, as you'll be more inclined to wait for God to come to the rescue.

There's no air. There's no water. There's a very strong acid in the stomach that will immediately start to decompose and digest you.



Im sorry C'jais but you obviously heard only what you wanted to hear in my little speech earlier. I explained that the Bible is a set of parables (in otherwords SHORT STORIES THAT PROBABLY DIDNT HAPPEN). What im trying to get at is, well, it doesnt matter if there was a whale or not, or if Jonah would have died inside. The story of Jonah is meant to teach us something! Not revel over the fact of how impossible it is.

As for God not being measurable. Just because God isnt physically able to be measured does not mean God isnt there. That is a small-minded belief almost like people believing in atoms. "If I can't see it, it's not there." Ancient people mocked Democritus for believing in small particles that he called "atmos" that we now call atoms. AND WHAT DID THE PEOPLE LAUGHING AT DEMOCRITUS BELIEVE IN? In the Phlogistan theory, which is: A theory stating everything has a substance called "Phlagistos" makes the objects flammable or not. Now, i may have gone off the beaten track a little, but God doesnt have to be measurable at all to understand God's presence. God gives us something to believe in. We can't believe the government will always be there. We can't have faith in George W. Bush. But we can have faith in God so we can have some aim and direction in our lives.

On a side note, all that stuff about Democritus and the Phlogistan theory is true. Go look it up, before you really think I am Crazy Ivan.

C'jais
03-02-2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan
Im sorry C'jais but you obviously heard only what you wanted to hear in my little speech earlier. I explained that the Bible is a set of parables (in otherwords SHORT STORIES THAT PROBABLY DIDNT HAPPEN).

Ah - "that probably did NOT happen". Good, very good. Go tell that to every single Christian on this board, as they obviously appear ignorant to this fact.

What im trying to get at is, well, it doesnt matter if there was a whale or not, or if Jonah would have died inside. The story of Jonah is meant to teach us something! Not revel over the fact of how impossible it is.

And the same goes for the dreaded Genesis? I pray it does.

As for God not being measurable. Just because God isnt physically able to be measured does not mean God isnt there.

For all intents and purposes, it does. What cannot be measured is completely irrelevant. There's no reason to believe something exists if there's nothing to prove it does.

If I waltzed around and postulated that there's a T-rex in my backyard and that everyone is really being mindcontrolled by evil, pink monkies from a far away planet, most people would likely demand some proof of that assertion. Clearly, the T-rex one would be quickly rooted out, as anyone can see it isn't there (unless it's being invisible and immaterial, of course). But the monkey one, that's tougher. There's no way to prove that we are not being mindcontrolled by monkies from Pluto, but there's also no reason to believe we are. When there's no proof, there's no reason.

That is a small-minded belief almost like people believing in atoms. "If I can't see it, it's not there."

FYI, atoms can be measured.

Ancient people mocked Democritus for believing in small particles that he called "atmos" that we now call atoms.

But the ancient people made the right conclusion, regardless of whether Democritus was right - there's no evidence to prove the assertion that everything is made up of small particles. At least, not at that time. This is really the same analogy as the one about the flat earth, and I already spent many paragraphs disproving that one.

However, it's important to remember that ones laughing at him weren't any better themselves as they believed in an equally worthless theory. There was no reason to believe in any of that crap, so the most rational stance they could take at that time was to simply dismiss any sort of theory dealing with things that cannot be measured or evidenced.

In short: there's absolutely no to go and make things up that cannot be empirically proven.

God gives us something to believe in.

Why oh why should we believe in something in the first place? I'm doing fine, and I don't believe in anything at all.

On a side note, all that stuff about Democritus and the Phlogistan theory is true. Go look it up, before you really think I am Crazy Ivan.

I knew the story. But it being true still does nothing for it being a very, very flawed analogy.

But let it be known that you can believe in whatever you want. In fact, I find your views on the Bible extremely sympathetic. They're way more advanced, and way better, than the brutish, take-no-prisoners approach with a completely literal interpretation that's all too often found here. I like it.

But you should also understand that you can never use the Bible or "God" as an argument for corrupting the school system and bending, even outright ignoring facts. We cannot risk the future of education to simple, petty beliefs, no matter which religion they come from.

Peace.

Crazy_Ivan
03-02-2003, 10:39 PM
I totally respect your truth and knowledge. I never intend to preach or make more people Christian. It's more important to lay down the facts and let people decide. I just wanted to explain in a drawn out way, that not all Christians are hypocrites and vice versa. Even Jewish people can be hypocrites! Hah.......but anyways, I don't have a problem with non-believers. Most of my friends have never stepped inside a church. A ton of celebrities thank God for awards but do nothing to show their gratitude besides shout out his name at an award ceremony.

But I cannot stand Christians who use the Bible as a shield.

Enough said, my fingers are numb heh.

shukrallah
03-03-2003, 06:40 PM
i cant believe some of the stuff that has been said on this thread!!!!

it sounds like some christians are even doubting the bible, why?????? like i said to C'jais before, when u say the bible isnt true, or a part of the bible, u are reallyy calling God a liar!!

WHY WOULD God SAY HE DID STUFF IF HE DIDNT!!! SOME PEOPLE DONT SEEM TO GET IT, WHY WOULD God LIE ABOUT HIMSELF, OR LET HIS PEOPLE READ A BOOK THAT ISNT TRUE!!!!

look crazy ivan basically you kinda *gave Satan a point* by saying the bible or parts of the bible are not true. ok the parables Jesus told were stories he made up, like the one about the seeds, and then the one about the father and son, things like that, those were the examples! everything else happend, the whole book isnt a parable or a group of parables!

So are u going to tell me there is no Elijah or Moses, or what about king David or Solomon, Samson, and Job!
God goes went through normal people, like Moses, to write down all that happend so we could learn. why would God tell a huge lie? huh? doesnt sound right to me!

God isnt a liar, the bible is true, and thats all need to say right now, yeah ive been sort of quiet in this thread unlike the last one, maybe i need to start preaching again.

C'jais
03-03-2003, 06:48 PM
God didn't write the Bible. Use the top of your head, man.

Please don't commence any preaching or bullying to other users. And don't even start calling one of the more sympathetic Christians in here a Satanist (I know you didn't, but watch it).

Do you believe the Genesis is real as well? It's a parable? Check the "History of our universe" thread.

shukrallah
03-03-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
God didn't write the Bible. Use the top of your head, man.

Please don't commence any preaching or bullying to other users. And don't even start calling one of the more sympathetic Christians in here a Satanist (I know you didn't, but watch it).

Do you believe the Genesis is real as well? It's a parable? Check the "History of our universe" thread.

yeah i got lil' mad, but after playing a quick game of JKII, im over it.

ok God, sorta did write it, he (or the Holy Spirit) went through the prophets and told them what to write, God didnt physically write it but he had control of what was written, and read today.

Bullying...lol...i still dont get what u mean by that....God called christians to tell his word, we are to go to all areas of the world and tell it. dont tell me what to do... and dont acuse me of bullying people, hey i didnt hold a gun top anyones head, and tel them to believe in God, did I? no if they or u dont want to read what i say then dont come to the thread or just skip what i have to say. :fett:

look, i agree with some of the stuff ivan said, but that part about the bible or parts of it being stories that are made up, i totally disagree with..... man dont let the devil confuse you! I dont see why God would sit there and have people wright things about him that were not true, God doesnt like lies....God doesnt do any evil, by saying parts things in the bible are not true u ARE calling God a liar, or saying he isnt real... i wont let anyone say that, God spoke to Jonah and told him to go to that city but he didnt... things happend.... in the end Jonah went to the city, by saying this is just a made up story to give us an example u are saying God didn really tell Jonah to preach his word in the city, you are saying God lied about that, God doesnt lie, name one lie God told!

by saying he gave satan a point i meant that sorta screwed up what witnessing has been done because u said the bible isnt true, thats just what every athiest and non-believer wants to hear, now u have given them a reason not to turn to God, just what the devil wants, he dont want anyone to go to God, its a war, a war for our souls, the more the devil drags down with him the more he laughs at God. now they have there excuse, any non-believer who reads this thread can say "well a christian said the bible isnt true, so why should i believe it"

yeah i believe in Genesis, the bible isnt here to give us a history lesson, its here to teach us, not to explain every little detail of life.
look God said it and it happend, hes God he can do what he wants, if he says its right im with him. its that simple. and none of u can turn me away from God. or tell me something isnt real that i know is.

Crazy_Ivan
03-03-2003, 07:38 PM
Earlier C'jais was explaining how logic can defy the boundaries set by some things said in the bible. I was just trying to point out that it doesn't matter if Jonah could or could not live in a whale shark (I saw this video where it was a whale shark :D) I was pretty much agreeing with you Luke that its meant to tell us something. I am a believer like you! The Trinity--God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are things im trying to clear up for people. When you say I am calling God a liar hurts. Mostly because I love him so. But you have to realize that the "Bible Commitee" as my CHURCH called it, decided what books would go in the bible and which ones written by the prophets wouldn't. I respect your love and undying protectiveness for God Luke.....I don't see that much these days.

I never meant to denounce the Bible.

shukrallah
03-03-2003, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan
Earlier C'jais was explaining how logic can defy the boundaries set by some things said in the bible. I was just trying to point out that it doesn't matter if Jonah could or could not live in a whale shark (I saw this video where it was a whale shark :D) I was pretty much agreeing with you Luke that its meant to tell us something. I am a believer like you! The Trinity--God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are things im trying to clear up for people. When you say I am calling God a liar hurts. Mostly because I love him so. But you have to realize that the "Bible Commitee" as my CHURCH called it, decided what books would go in the bible and which ones written by the prophets wouldn't. I respect your love and undying protectiveness for God Luke.....I don't see that much these days.

I never meant to denounce the Bible.

im very sorry... :( ivan i didnt mean it to hurt you.
it meant a lot to me for u to say this:

I respect your love and undying protectiveness for God Luke.....I don't see that much these days.



it isnt the first time ive said this to people, i told that to C'jais a few months ago, (december i think)

im just saying if u say the bible isnt true that means God lied in the bible, and so that means u did say that, if thats what u meant in the thing u said


Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan
(in otherwords SHORT STORIES THAT PROBABLY DIDNT HAPPEN).


i guess maybe i took it the wrong way.
what i read in the bible is what happend. thats all i need to know.

shukrallah
03-03-2003, 08:22 PM
Ok C'jais im not goin to argue anymore....the bible syas christians are not supposed to argue about the bible with other people, im leaving this thread and wont come back....because everytime i or anyone else tries to tell the word of God in any thread, C'jais is there and always tries to start something, look C'jais i dont care if u call me a bully, or if cuss or say whatever about me, (not saying u have). i dont care because im proud to receive persecution for God, Christ, and The Holy Spirit.

without God, i dont know what would have happend to me today.... who knows? i have nothing else to live for exept him, i keep living because i still have work to do, i still have to tell the word of God, i have to tell that Jesus died for us, and God will forgive us, i dont want to see anyone go to Hell, but people who dont know God will find out one day, when they bow down to him and say to Christ Jesus you are the Lord. yeah that will be an amazing day when Satan bows to christ, and says you are the Lord.

Just remember non-believers youve heard it here on this thread, and on many other threads. Youve also heard it on tv, the radio, on the internet, you know about God so there is no excuse not to turn to him! Its your choice, one day we will see who is right. anyone who does decide to turn to God by reading this or any other thread is free to PM me any questions they have, ill do my best to answere them.

C YA later

Lukeskywalker1

obi
03-03-2003, 11:28 PM
I'm a christian too, and I don't want to see anyone go to Hell, but C'Jais is jst trying to argue his side of the case. No need to get all huffy about it. :)

meadfish
03-07-2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
I'm a christian too, and I don't want to see anyone go to Hell, but C'Jais is jst trying to argue his side of the case. No need to get all huffy about it. :)

I had to come back and give credit to Obi for sticking up for C'jais. Having been in on the thread earlier I know that was not easy ;)

We should cling to our beliefs but still respect others rights to cling to theirs.

Using the bible as ammuntion against a non believer is kinda vain. I believe the bible is the word of God, but if someone does not believe that then quoting it has no effect. I know you are gonna say "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17) which is true if someone is pursuing faith.

As far as the parable vs reality....Jesus did use parables as analogies for christian living (read Matthew 13:10,11) Chapter 16 of Luke starts with a parable. But the story of Lazarus (not the Lazarus raised from the dead, the one at the gate of the rich man) in verse 19 is not a parable because he names the person.

Lastly, for the multiple arguements like "I am god, I am right, I wrote it down so why not believe me? what is the difference? I believe one version earlier was called C'jaisism. Just to use that as example....
If something that C'jais wrote was still around thousands of years from now, hmmm... it deserves at least a look. And if somehow reading that made me feel the actual presence of C'jais, hmmm...maybe there is something to it. And if pursuing that presence led me to see many miracles, and was powerful enough to make me (and millions of others) totally change to a new way of life, how could anyone deny C'jaisism?
Many would say "Oh, C'jais was just a man, a moderator on a thread about religion" and would slander him and those who believed in him. But those who did read his writings and did FEEL and get proof through personal revelation would still believe and share it with other willing listeners, and maybe...just maybe make a post about C'jaisism on a Gaming website ;)

Echuu Shen-Jon
03-15-2003, 10:04 AM
I'm a true Christian.

Darklighter
03-15-2003, 09:24 PM
I am a christian, but not out of choice. Seeing things in my life as I've grown up and watching how our world works today and what happens in it (most recently, the imposing war with Iraq), I have very strong beliefs against the existence of a God. God made this world, and he has the power to change things here. i don't believe in the fact that us good-natured people must be left to watch evil reign over us on Earth.

I actually went to church for the first time in a long while back on Christmas Eve, and a part of the Vicor's end prayer really made me think. She said something like:

"And we must thank you O Lord for how lucky we are in this time and place. We thank you for everything you have given us, and how lucky we are to recieve your love and kindness."

And I beg the question here: Is this the same God who provided and loved the thousands of innocent people dying in third world countries right this very second? If we have a God, I don't believe he is at all merciful. Why should we just be the ones who recieve everything from God?

I don't believe a word of it. Man worked, fed and brought destruction down upon himself. And when this world we live in is finally destroyed, don't blame God: we can only blame ourselves. I know it may be a diffucult concept to grasp, and a frightening one at that, but I believe and have accepted that we are all alone. There is no greater power out there to help us; it is only us. I would really like to believe that at the end of all of this, there will be someone to help us in our time of need, you don't know how much I wish that. But there is no one. That is why I don't go to church, and instead spend time with the people I love and care about. To me, that is more important than spending time praying for a miracle.

Miracles don't exist; only coincidences.

Reborn Outcast
03-16-2003, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by Darklighter
Miracles don't exist; only coincidences.

Ever seen the movie "Signs"? The last scene is pretty powerful in explaining how there are no coincidences.

Darklighter
03-16-2003, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Ever seen the movie "Signs"? The last scene is pretty powerful in explaining how there are no coincidences.

That's what I was thinking about when I said that:)Which proves my point even further...UFOs and extra terrestrials, another unproven mystery...like God, IMO. You know maybe God, and aliens and UFOs do exist, or maybe they don't. It all depends on whether you think spiritually or scientifically.

Reborn Outcast
03-16-2003, 12:21 AM
No I wasnt reffering to the aliens at all. Its just that, all that stuff that was there that was used to defeat it was not coincidence. :D

Mandalorian54
03-16-2003, 03:17 AM
Hey Darklighter. If you don't believe in God how can you be a christian?

A christian must believe the Bible, because that is what the teachings of those who founded christianity taught.

you can't be a christian but not follow it's rules.

like you can't be a professional hockey player and not be on a professional team. GET IT?

BigTeddyPaul
03-16-2003, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
A christian must believe the Bible, because that is what the teachings of those who founded christianity taught.

you can't be a christian but not follow it's rules.

And who do you believe founded Christianity?

Sure you can. You are just a bad one.

BigTeddyPaul

Reborn Outcast
03-16-2003, 09:11 AM
Mandolorian read Darklighters first sentence.

I am a christian, but not out of choice.

Which means that he probably grew up in a Christian family, but never believed. Don't be so hard on him.

Luc Solar
03-16-2003, 09:29 AM
About Darklighter; being "technically" a Christian is more of a rule than an exeption. That's what this thread is about.

Anyways,

I was on my wife's grandmother's (85th) birthday yesterday. Most of the guests were religious (Pentecostalists).

I sat there for 4Ĺ hours listening to the speeches and songs and felt like vomiting.

"Oh how God has blessed You and washed away your sins with blood, with blood that drowns the disbelievers and sucks them into the eternal flames of hell! May God Smite the wicked and bless thy with His benevolence. Ooh, we hear the grand song of the river of blooood that bursts through the lines of the sinful ones!"

:rolleyes:

I have serious issues with religion, that's for sure.

Darklighter
03-16-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
you can't be a christian but not follow it's rules.

like you can't be a professional hockey player and not be on a professional team. GET IT?

Yes Mandolorian, I 'GET IT'. Like I said, I am not a christian out of choice. I come from a very religious family, and my parents have high expectations of me to follow in their footsteps in terms of religion. Despite the fact that I go against everything they believe in. It's not my fault, just the way I feel. And I know how you feel Luc, I have serious issues too.

Luc Solar
03-16-2003, 04:50 PM
My advice to you Darklighter:

Think about what you parents really want of you. What is the point of it all? What do they strive for? Disregard the formal nonsense. Disregard the pathos (dunno if that is a word, but...if it aint, "forgetaboutit")

What is the ultimate goal of every Christian..no: every religious and sane person?

>>> To be a GOOD person. That's it; A good person.

A good person is patient, forgiving, kind, generous, altruistic.

Does this mean that you should tell your parents to " **** " off?

No. A good person is patient. A good person does not intentionally hurt the feelings of his loved ones. A good person takes a deep breath and sais: I respect your faith in god and experience of life, but if you trust me, you will let me form my own beliefs.

What are *my* beliefs?

I honestly don't know. The rational part of me wants to choose the path of technically believing in God just to be sure, but live my life the way my brain tells me to. That is the most intelligent way: accept god, but don't let His words interfere with you deeds. "Saved for certain", right? ;)

My other half wants to embrace God, Buddha, the holy triangle, (just a personal thingie I came up with ~15 years ago) the all-powerful Saddam and North Korea's president Kim Jong-il (or whatever) who scored 11 consecutive hole-in-ones when playing golf for the first time in his life. (take that Woods!)

But seriously: if you don't force yourself to some stupid belief and let you mind roam free, you will come to the same conclusion as I have: religion insults my intelligence

That's a tough thing to say, I know... but... brains (which God supposedly gave us) and religion can not live peacefully together.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all religious people are dumb. I mean...I cling on to religion simply for the sake of the good impact it has on me and I do not consider myself dumb on any standard.

I question myself 24/7. If someone gives me a good reason to believe, I will. I *want* to believe because that would be good for me, but I simply can not force my mind to accept something that I can not rationally verify... I would intentionally lie to myself which would be ridiculous, hypocritical and useless.

Just because I have been right all my life doesn't mean that I might not be wrong some day. (No, I'm not being egoistic, I'm just stating a fact) I realize that.

(One of these days someone points out that I've made a typo or something and...well...that's about it. :D )

You should all read Cjais sig... it's more true than Cjais himself knows.

Always question yourselves...dig deeper, that's the only way you'll find peace. :)

Now if you excuse me, I'll go and get another beer. ;)

C'jais
03-16-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
What is the ultimate goal of every Christian..no: every religious and sane person?

>>> To be a GOOD person. That's it; A good person.

A good person is patient, forgiving, kind, generous, altruistic.

Well, yes. And you don't need God to tell you that, as Luc has just demonstrated.

You should all read Cjais sig... it's more true than Cjais himself knows.

Thanks.... hehehe.

No really, I do know that I'm not fully aware of that wisdom, with me being only 17 and all. I suspect I'll find it much more dear with age, as I'll get the chance to stand on my own in life, as I also suspect that this is where that particular insight will come in handy the most.

I think I need to stress the "accept" part of it. There's a difference between acknowledging that you're wrong, and accepting it - to accept, you need to learn from it, and move on.

Now if you excuse me, I'll go and get another beer. ;)

And while you're getting a beer, here's an interesting article I found. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2850485.stm)

Luc Solar
03-16-2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
[B]No really, I do know that I'm not fully aware of that wisdom, with me being only 17 and all. I suspect I'll find it much more dear with age, as I'll get the chance to stand on my own in life, as I also suspect that this is where that particular insight will come in handy the most./B]

For Christ sakes! You are 17!! Are you kidding me??

You know....after reading a few posts from Skinwalker and others (Griff the rest of you guys) you notice that they think first, write second. That is a trait that comes with age and experience.

You say you're 17? Seriously? 17?

OMFG, STFU!? :confused:
I mean that in a nice way. You're the sort of a guy that I would vote for in 25 years. (Finland voted for parliament today, so it's a hot topic)

How the hell do you know English so well??? Have you lived in Brighton for the last 15 years or what?

Damn you Cjais - go get an IQ-test or something and leave us mortals alone! :D

EDIT: a special thanks to Skinwalker for all those excellent post about the Iraq-situation. :thumbsup:

Reborn Outcast
03-16-2003, 06:26 PM
I'm only 14 so how d'ya like THAT for maturity. :D ;)

And C'jais, I thought you were like 35 or something by your mastery of the English language even though you are foreign born and live in another country.

Darklighter
03-16-2003, 06:52 PM
Same here, I thought Cjais had to be at least 20. Way beyond your years, you are;)I consider a lot of other people in here who are younger than me a lot wiser and knowledgable, including you Reborn;)Damn I didn't know you were 14, that is quite amazing:)I'm 16, and probably a lot less wise than you:D

Problem with me is that I'm quite narrow-minded, and won't readily consider the other side of the argument. Damn my stubborness:D

C'jais
03-16-2003, 06:54 PM
(Damn I can't handle compliments like this, but I thank you very much anyway :))

As for your questions, no, I've never lived in England. I used to go there on summer holidays, but that's as far as it went.

And no, I'm not terribly smart either - above average, but nothing outstanding. For all of my "mastery of the English language", I can't even get good grades on my English papers :(

I can't really see what sets my apart from others really. I mean, I'm not in any way more mature than my class mates and I'm outright stupid at dealing with my own life.

Now, let's get back on topic ;)

EDIT: I took an online IQ test once and got around 120.

Breton
03-17-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast

And C'jais, I thought you were like 35 or something by your mastery of the English language even though you are foreign born and live in another country.

Just so you know it, I'm 13...;)

EDIT: I took an online IQ test once and got around 120.

Perhaps you can try this one: http://www.iqtest.com/. It's really easy though.

C'jais
03-17-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Just so you know it, I'm 13...;)

13!i! I had you down as around 16...

Qui is my new poster child for tomorrow ;)



I tried the IQ test, but it required a credit card. Bummer.

Breton
03-17-2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by C'jais

I tried the IQ test, but it required a credit card. Bummer.

It doesn't. As long as you give them your email, they will mail it to you after you've done it.

ioshee
03-17-2003, 05:57 PM
Being a Christian isnít about following the ďrulesĒ of the Bible. So many people misunderstand that. Itís not about being a ďgood personĒ either. Good is such a relative term. Besides, I donít think there has been a single good person on earth ever. Not perfect at any rate. And if you are not perfect then how do you measure your good level? Is there an imaginary scale that you put little good weights and bad weights on?
Besides, being good isnít hardÖ itís impossible

The Bible never says you get something for being good (other than peace within your own spirit.) In terms of salvation it clearly states that that is a free gift. Being good is just a side effect (so to speak) of having a relationship with the creator of the universe. First comes the faith then everything else in terms of behavior comes naturally.

Ok just imagine this scenario (you can call it hypothetical if you want.)
There is a God.
He makes a planet and everything on it.
Heís perfect in every way.
Because he is perfect he cannot be around anyone who is not perfect.
No one lives up to this standard.
He is perfectly just (as in justice) so there must be consequences for not being perfect.
Instead of punishing humans he makes a sacrifice out of his own son.
He gives you two choices:
1. Accept the fact that he did this instead of punishing you.
2. Get punished

I donít see whatís so unbelievable about that. Does is make more sense that a higher power would make the universe and then totally forget it? If you believe there is no higher power then you have a better imagination than I do. The big bang theory is harder to believe than the Bible.

It all comes down to an issue of pride. Are you too proud to think that your fate is not determined by your own actions? We are raised to think that we get something for being good and to be proud of being good. Most ďChristianĒ churches today preach behavioral correctness. So you get this mentality that going to hell has something to do with bad behavior. If people went to hell because of bad behavior then everyone would go to hell.

What separates true Christianity from every other major religion in the world is that being a Christian has nothing to do with your actions. Every other religion is about working towards a goal of being ďgoodĒ. Christianity doesnít have a goal; itís simply one step. A decision. Sadly, Christian churches today forego what the Bible really says and opt to talk about being good and how hard it is. Again, being good isnít hard, itís impossible (at least to the standards of the God in the Bible.) So why do Churches talk about not ďsinningĒ? Because they are morons. Those types of churches might as well be any good-behavior teaching religion.

It makes me sad because the majority of people who call themselves Christians try to share bits and pieces of the Bible as they (or someone they heard preach) interpret them. That gives everyone who doesnít consider themselves a Christian a really warped view of what the Bible really says. If you read the whole Bible in context with just a teeny tiny bit of faith, you will see that itís not about following rules and that it really isnít open to interpretation. Itís pretty plain. Itís hard to misunderstand its meaning unless you want to.

Only by admitting that you are not good will you find goodness. Only by admitting that you are foolish will you become wise. Only by admitting that you are weak will you find strength. Not in yourself, but in the being that created you. Only by totally giving yourself up will you find out what you really are.

So I believe true Christians canít be hypocrites. Not because they are perfect, but because true Christians never claim to be perfect. Everyone is equal. It just comes down to whether or not you want to take a free gift or not.

Reborn Outcast
03-17-2003, 06:21 PM
I don't know about that IQ test... I got a 169 lol...

Mandalorian54
03-17-2003, 06:58 PM
I see what you mean darklighter.


As for who founded christianity. It was Jesus who brought the teachings and doctrine, and then the twelve apostles and other followers of Christ put together the Bible and presented christianity.

But after Constantine legalized christianity all these other false teachings got mixed in with christianity and that's why you have Catholics and Jehovah whitnesses and other "Christians" who do not follow the teachings of Christ and the Bible.


Please excuse my spelling.

Reborn Outcast
03-17-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
Catholics

You consider Catholics "false" Christians?! Hmmm... how so? (For the sake of discussion)

ioshee
03-18-2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
You consider Catholics "false" Christians?! Hmmm... how so? (For the sake of discussion)


Can I discuss it even though I didnít say it?

I have known Catholics that are Christians and Catholics that are not.

Just like I know People who call themselves Christians but really arenít.

Although I will say, most Catholics Iíve seen truly discover what freedom in Christ means give up the ďreligiousĒ aspects of their faith. Just as Protestants should. Religion is just a distraction from what faith should be.

As far as Jehovahís Witness' go, they are just a cult like Mormons:)

Luc Solar
03-18-2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by ioshee
Being a Christian isnít about following the ďrulesĒ of the Bible. So many people misunderstand that. Itís not about being a ďgood personĒ either.
...
What separates true Christianity from every other major religion in the world is that being a Christian has nothing to do with your actions. Every other religion is about working towards a goal of being ďgoodĒ. Christianity doesnít have a goal; itís simply one step. A decision.
So I believe true Christians canít be hypocrites. Not because they are perfect, but because true Christians never claim to be perfect. Everyone is equal. It just comes down to whether or not you want to take a free gift or not.

Ok. That was one excellent post, ioshee. One that evades most of christianity's pitfalls. :thumbsup:

Glad to have you in the Senate Chambers. :)

I wish I had time to comment on it....

griff38
03-18-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by munik
Well, I referenced the American Standard Version, and the Revised Standard Version. Apparently, the Bible says whatever you want it to say, as long as you have the right version.

Aside from the absurdity of going in and surviving inside the stomach of any animal, I don't even think there is a fish that has a stomach large enough to contain an adult man. So, if it's a whale, that's at least partially feasible, but if it's only a fish, unfeasible.

Young dude you have egg on your face, after nitpiking Obi over a single word, for you to admit you only look at 1 of many bible versions is embarrassing. (what makes your version more accurate than any other?)

And I agree a human is not going to be living long in the belly of anything but there are several fish large enough to swallow an adult human. Not counting the sea going mammals.

The story of Jonah (in my opinion is a Metaphor),people sometimes gets swallowed up by ideas or concepts that take over their lives. And can in time, like Jonah escape from their constraints.

Reborn Outcast
03-18-2003, 05:01 PM
Actually, if you take that story and read the whole thing The Bible says its all true, not a myth or fairytale. Jonah survived because of a miracle.

Mandalorian54
03-18-2003, 06:29 PM
Johna isn't the only person to have survived in the belly of a whale. I have read about another person, all though it was a while ago and I can't remeber his name.

But the book was titled "When Science Fails", if your curiouse.


as for catholics, Very few are christians, but of course it's possible.

But I liked what you said Ioshee, That is why I and christians from my church and my christian friends always say, Christianity is not a religion it's a faith.

And Catholics are not christians because they teach things that go against the Bible. They used to only have the bible in latin, and it was forbidden for common folk to read the bible, because the church made all these false teachings, for example: holy water, praying to marry, purgatory,and selling of indulgence.

none of these things are in the Bible, exept for the Catholic Bible, which has two books added to it.

you see...?

ioshee
03-19-2003, 01:40 AM
Luc, thanks for the encouraging words. Itís always nice to know someone read your long @$$ post hehe.

Mandolorian54, I agree with you about the added stuff. I think that is wrong. I can't say I know a whole lot about Catholicism so you are probably more qualified than I am on that subject. I think that there are certain things about the Catholic faith that are biblical. It all depends on where you focus is. If itís on Jesus, right on. If itís on beads and candles and statues then wrong on. If beads help you remember to focus on Jesus Iím not going to say you are an idiot. (Iím using the word you in general. Iím not referring to you Mando54.):)

On the subject of Joanna and the FISH being unbelievable:
If you find that story unbelievable then you will probably find a great deal of things in the Bible hard to swallow (pun intended.)

I heard a teacher put it this way once. "If you can believe the first verse in the Bible, you shouldn't have a problem with anything else that follows."

So it comes back to an issue of faith doesn't it?

Breton
03-19-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54

And Catholics are not christians because they teach things that go against the Bible. They used to only have the bible in latin, and it was forbidden for common folk to read the bible, because the church made all these false teachings, for example: holy water, praying to marry, purgatory,and selling of indulgence.


I will just ask you a question.

Why do you belive you have the right to judge who's christian and who's not? I thought only God could do that.

meadfish
03-19-2003, 07:44 PM
I notice a trend in this thread.....not by all, but many......
"I am right you are wrong, this is why"

None of us are in any position to judge right and wrong for another.....

Nobody can really be wrong because they are stating what they believe, or don't believe. If someone knows something is true but ignores it, that would be wrong. I don't agree with the teachings of Joseph Smith (Mormonism) or Charles Taze Russel (basis of Jehovah's Witnesses) but I would not tell someone who does that they are wrong. I would tell what I do believe and let them do the same. This is why I am confused a little about the whole Catholic/Christianity issue. There are definite differences and similarities between the two faiths, but to me they are obviously different. Just as JW's and Mormons have similar "Christian" ideals they don't claim to be Christian. So If you are Catholic and it is what you believe then be Catholic. It does not mean you are wrong, just Catholic.

The fact is, some people have a personal "spiritual" desire to believe in a creator, some don't. If someone has that desire, they may try several paths before they land on the one that fits them best. People without that desire still try paths, but for other reasons. Some people don't take any path, they just watch others go back and forth, but are only commited to being non-commital :p Sometimes the path you choose ends up being an "interstate" that only led to another path.

When you hunger to know the Creator, whomever He is, your path will be unavoidable. Til then, be you....the good you ;)

Your parents and friends will respect you for being the best you, or admonish you for being a bad you.

My personal beliefs are stated 2 or 3 pages earlier in this thread, as is my take on being "Technically Christian" :cool:

C'jais
03-20-2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by ioshee
Being good is just a side effect (so to speak) of having a relationship with the creator of the universe. First comes the faith then everything else in terms of behavior comes naturally.

So being a Good Christian is irrelevant, as long as you're Christian?

Let me get this: It doesn't matter if I'm an abusive alcoholic who likes to rape little puppies, as long as I believe in Christ? Wow. I never thought it worked that way.

So all the stuff about us being weighed and measured when we're dead, to see if we're "worthy" of standing next to Jesus doesn't really matter?

Ok just imagine this scenario (you can call it hypothetical if you want.)
There is a God.
Heís perfect in every way.
Because he is perfect he cannot be around anyone who is not perfect.
No one lives up to this standard.
He is perfectly just (as in justice) so there must be consequences for not being perfect.
Instead of punishing humans he makes a sacrifice out of his own son.
He gives you two choices:
1. Accept the fact that he did this instead of punishing you.
2. Get punished

I donít see whatís so unbelievable about that.

That'd be all well and good as long as we actually knew that was what happened. We don't.

What we've got is a collection of scriptures (most written by the same, one man), all claiming the authors recieved divine inspiration. They're telling us that the Bible is right because it's divine. But who wrote the Bible? People did. People claiming divine intervention did. I could make the same statement:

I'm right because I say I am. I have the mandate to say I am right, because I am divine. Yet, I'm still just an ordinary human as far as we all know, so there's no way to test this statement.

Thus, it is circular reasoning, and thus we can discard this hypothesis (it's not even a theory) as we see fit. Thus your entire argument falls. Case closed.

He makes a planet and everything on it.

Now this is interesting. What if we found life on other planets? Would you then start reading the Bible as a bunch of metaphors, not to be taken literally? Would the whole Genesis fall on its behind because it's only dealing with this planet? Because, as you know, you can't add to the Bible...

If you believe there is no higher power then you have a better imagination than I do.

On the contrary, believing is an active feat of imagination, so that point is pretty moot.

The big bang theory is harder to believe than the Bible.

If only you had to believe in hard data and tested theories, this statement would be somewhat true.

No. You cannot believe in the theory of gravity, nor the theory of evolution, the atomic theory or the big bang theory for that matter.

It all comes down to an issue of pride. Are you too proud to think that your fate is not determined by your own actions?

Are you too proud to think that your fate is not utterly insignificant and that the universe's pityless indifference doesn't care what happens to you, and excuse this lack of realization by inventing something imaginary to look after you?

Your fate is determined by everything.

We are raised to think that we get something for being good and to be proud of being good.

No.

We are raised to see that our species can only prosper in a peaceful, calm environment. "Being nice" is not only a moral, it is downright evident that it is one of the better ways to survive.

Christianity doesnít have a goal; itís simply one step. A decision.

Sadly, some Christians in here are of the notion that it is "not enough just to believe". Preach to them instead.

Those types of churches might as well be any good-behavior teaching religion.

And those good-behaviour religions are the ones I'd like to live next door to - definately some zealot who thinks it's okay to do whatever he wants as long as he'll get to heaven anyway.

The crusades, the priest-supported slavery in the States, the eradication of farming communities in the Philipines, The dark ages, the killing of abortion-practicing doctors, Bush Jr.'s religious mandate to wage a war and the overpopulation in Africa doesn't ring the slightest bell?

If you read the whole Bible in context with just a teeny tiny bit of faith, you will see that itís not about following rules and that it really isnít open to interpretation.

Not open to interpretation. I'll remember that.

Tell me, was the earth created 6000 years ago? Does the Bible objectify women and condemn homosexuals? Is abortion murder?

Only by admitting that you are not good will you find goodness. Only by admitting that you are foolish will you become wise. Only by admitting that you are weak will you find strength. Not in yourself, but in the being that created you. Only by totally giving yourself up will you find out what you really are.

Only by realizing that you are truly insignificant will you come to terms with your finite existence. Only by realizing that beliefs will bow before data will you discover the inner mechanics of everything.

Only by realizing that all religions are built on the same principles of circular reasoning will you open your mind.

So I believe true Christians canít be hypocrites.

That's an irresponsible way of explaining how your religion is morally superior.

Everyone is equal.

Explain the case called Mandalorian54, please.

It just comes down to whether or not you want to take a free gift or not.

That gift is in your mind alone.

Wanting eternal bliss is about as selfish as it gets.

C'jais
03-20-2003, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
Johna isn't the only person to have survived in the belly of a whale. I have read about another person, all though it was a while ago and I can't remeber his name.

But the book was titled "When Science Fails", if your curiouse.

Is this the story? (http://ship-of-fools.com/Myths/04Myth.html)

Listen, there's no way you can survive inside a whale for more than 5 minutes without getting choked, disolved and digested.

ShadowTemplar
03-20-2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by C'jais
For all of my "mastery of the English language", I can't even get good grades on my English papers :(

Could that have something to do with the fact that you do them between 10 and 12 pm the day before deadline? :D

Fish/Whale: A whale is not a fish. If your version of the Bible states that, then your version of the Bible is silly... Buut that's not saying much. BTW, Obi, there is a fish big enough to contain a human in its stommach. It's a big species of shark. But it eats plankton, so I don't know if it could actually swallow a man.

And C'Jais: Don't mock the Phlogistone theory. It was based on empirical evidence: Things get heavier when they burn (burning is basically an oxidation that binds oxygen to the fuel, which of course makes it heavier. It was therefore suspected that inflammible materials contained a substance dubbed phlogistone, which had a negative mass and was consumed in the burning.

So the Phlogistone theory wasn't wrong when it was concieved. Sure, it was false, but that doesn't make it wrong.

It was, however, disproven definitively when some smart chap (can't remember his name, unfortunately) decided to use scales in his experiments, and found that a closed container containing fuel and air had exactly the same mass before and after the oxidation. Then the Phlogistone theory became wrong. But it remained false throughout.

Lastly, for the multiple arguements like "I am god, I am right, I wrote it down so why not believe me? what is the difference? I believe one version earlier was called C'jaisism. Just to use that as example....

Opium qualifies to all of the criteria in your example (note that I'm not compaireing religion to opium (right now), merely pointing out the obvious failings of the argument)...

Lol. I just tried the test you guys mentioned... This is what I got.

Thank you for recently taking the Self Discovery Workshop's IQ Test.
Because of the Internet's ability to mishandle transmissions, we are
reconfirming via email that your IQ Test score was: 155

(give or take a little for sloppy time-keeping)

Which is, in short, why I don't go for IQ tests.

Only by realizing that you are truly insignificant will you come to terms with your finite existence. Only by realizing that beliefs will bow before data will you discover the inner mechanics of everything.

Only by realizing that all religions are built on the same principles of circular reasoning will you open your mind.

Preach it!... Wait... I don't like preachers... Hmm... Okay... Make it public!

Luc Solar
03-20-2003, 12:02 PM
Don't know nor care if it was that same online IQ-test I took a while back.. but that time I answered every question (~5 options & 50 or more questions) randomly and scored 101. That's a bit above "average intelligence". :rolleyes:

I'm either incredibly lucky or the test sucks....and I don't believe in luck. :p

ShadowTemplar
03-20-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Don't know nor care if it was that same online IQ-test I took a while back.. but that time I answered every question (~5 options & 50 or more questions) randomly and scored 101. That's a bit above "average intelligence". :rolleyes:

No. That is average intelligence. There is both a spread and an accuracy on those things... But then again, your example serves fine.

I'm either incredibly lucky or the test sucks....and I don't believe in luck. :p

"I attribute my entire success to luck... But I find that I am more lucky when I've practised."

Unfortunately I can't remember who said it.

But I definitely think that luck exists. Only it is extremely subjective.

For example, you could take this situation: I lose my wallet with 100Ä in it. Some guy finds it. Is this chain of events lucky or unlucky? Bad luck for me, I'd say, but fair luck for Jhon Doe.

BTW: I'm 16 for whom it may concern. But I don't plan on staying so, so the validity of that comment will probably cease to apply over time.

ioshee
03-21-2003, 12:58 PM
To Cíjais,

Iím sorry about offending you in my post (if I did. Iím not sure you are really offended, but I apologize just the same.) Please donít take what I said to heart if you donít want to. Iím not saying you have to believe what I wrote. Did you ever see that Sienfeld where Elaine was mad at her boyfriend for not trying to convert her to Christianity, even though she didnít believe him? It was funny.
If you donít mind Iíd love to address some of your responces to my original post. If you donít want to read it then please donít.

Originally posted by C'jais
So being a Good Christian is irrelevant, as long as you're Christian?

Let me get this: It doesn't matter if I'm an abusive alcoholic who likes to rape little puppies, as long as I believe in Christ? Wow. I never thought it worked that way.

So all the stuff about us being weighed and measured when we're dead, to see if we're "worthy" of standing next to Jesus doesn't really matter?


On a purely hypothetical level, you understand what I said correctly. Your actions do not determine your eternal fate if you accept Jesus. However, if you truly believe that what the Bible says about Jesus is true, you wonít have the desire to rape puppies. I was trying to say that ďgoodĒ behavior comes natually out of thankfulness for what God has done. Obviously I dinít make myself too clear. Sorry.

Originally posted by C'jais

That'd be all well and good as long as we actually knew that was what happened. We don't.

What we've got is a collection of scriptures (most written by the same, one man), all claiming the authors recieved divine inspiration. They're telling us that the Bible is right because it's divine. But who wrote the Bible? People did. People claiming divine intervention did. I could make the same statement:

I'm right because I say I am. I have the mandate to say I am right, because I am divine. Yet, I'm still just an ordinary human as far as we all know, so there's no way to test this statement.

Thus, it is circular reasoning, and thus we can discard this hypothesis (it's not even a theory) as we see fit. Thus your entire argument falls. Case closed.


You donít have to believe anything you donít want to. Itís all up to you what you want to do with your life. We are not robots. (Well youíre not a robot, I may be. *thinks* yeah Iím a robot.) But you did say case closed so maybe I shouldnít even be typing this :eek:

Originally posted by C'jais
Now this is interesting. What if we found life on other planets? Would you then start reading the Bible as a bunch of metaphors, not to be taken literally? Would the whole Genesis fall on its behind because it's only dealing with this planet? Because, as you know, you can't add to the Bible...


I think you might have misunderstood that part. I really wasnít saying he made only one planet.
For the record, I donít believe there is life on other planets that will greatly affect our existence on earth.

Originally posted by C'jais
On the contrary, believing is an active feat of imagination, so that point is pretty moot.


I didnít quite understand what you meant here. Bear in mind Iím not the brightest light bulb in the pack.

Originally posted by C'jais
If only you had to believe in hard data and tested theories, this statement would be somewhat true.

No. You cannot believe in the theory of gravity, nor the theory of evolution, the atomic theory or the big bang theory for that matter.


I have yet to see ďhard data" on the big bang theory.
Gravity is something I experience everyday while I have never experienced the big bang theory.
Actually the probability that all the prophecies in the Bible that came true could be predicted beforehand is greater than the law of thermal dynamics. I trust Iím not going to burst into flames at any minute (trusting the law of thermal dynamics) so I donít have a hard time believing the Bible.

Originally posted by C'jais
Are you too proud to think that your fate is not utterly insignificant and that the universe's pityless indifference doesn't care what happens to you, and excuse this lack of realization by inventing something imaginary to look after you?


I do believe I am utterly insignificant. I donít believe the univeseís pityless indiffernce cares what happens to me, but God does.
I didnít invent Christianity.

Originally posted by C'jais
Your fate is determined by everything.


That sounds interesting. It seems like you have your own religion.

Originally posted by C'jais
No.

We are raised to see that our species can only prosper in a peaceful, calm environment. "Being nice" is not only a moral, it is downright evident that it is one of the better ways to survive.


I disagree. I worked with and studied chimpanzees for almost two years. They are not peaceful, calm or nice to each other. Theirs species prospers just fine.

I think we are nice to each other because deep down we know it brings us peace.

Originally posted by C'jais
Sadly, some Christians in here are of the notion that it is "not enough just to believe". Preach to them instead.


Well, most of my post was intended for Christians. Iím sorry you had to read it.

Originally posted by C'jais
And those good-behaviour religions are the ones I'd like to live next door to - definately some zealot who thinks it's okay to do whatever he wants as long as he'll get to heaven anyway.

The crusades, the priest-supported slavery in the States, the eradication of farming communities in the Philipines, The dark ages, the killing of abortion-practicing doctors, Bush Jr.'s religious mandate to wage a war and the overpopulation in Africa doesn't ring the slightest bell?


As I have stated above, good morals come with truly believing in the Bible. My point was that most Christians get the order reversed.

Grouping the worst acts that have been associated with Christianity together and calling it all of Christianity is as narrow minded as calling all Muslims terrorists. I know you are more intelligent than that.

Originally posted by C'jais
Not open to interpretation. I'll remember that.

Tell me, was the earth created 6000 years ago? Does the Bible objectify women and condemn homosexuals? Is abortion murder?


Iím not sure but I think those are rhetorical questions you are asking me.

Like a lot of Christians, you are trying to bring it back to a question of actions and what is right and wrong. You are missing the point of the Bible if you get stuck on those few things that offend you.

Originally posted by C'jais
Only by realizing that you are truly insignificant will you come to terms with your finite existence. Only by realizing that beliefs will bow before data will you discover the inner mechanics of everything.

Only by realizing that all religions are built on the same principles of circular reasoning will you open your mind.


I do believe I am insignificant. Although it hasnít helped me ďcome to terms with my finite existence.Ē

As far as circular reasoning, I donít believe that all religions are based on it. I see the circle you are talking about and many religions follow that formula. You gave the example of you saying you are divine and how that would be a your-word-against-mine sort of circle (if I understood your point.) However many people wrote the Bible who are from different cultures and backgrounds. Itís not just one main guy as put it, with everyone else willing to perpetuate a hoax through torture and persecution.

Originally posted by C'jais
That's an irresponsible way of explaining how your religion is morally superior.


You took that out of context. I said a true Christian canít be a hypocrite because he or she doesnít pretend to be perfect in the first place. Morality has nothing to do with that statement.

Originally posted by C'jais
Explain the case called Mandalorian54, please.


LoL

Originally posted by C'jais
That gift is in your mind alone.


Actually Iím not the only one who believes what I do.

Originally posted by C'jais
Wanting eternal bliss is about as selfish as it gets.


You have a point there.
I admit that I am an evil, selfish, contemptible bastard. That is why I need Jesus:)

Arrok
05-09-2003, 01:47 AM
I read this post the other day and found it a great read. So many opinions. For the record, I believe in Jesus Christ as my savior and will continue to know this regardless of what anyone here posts.

Now on with my info... I'm an IT Consultant, and I was working in a clients lab today and noticed an interesting sign by one of the desks. It read:


In God we trust... all others bring data.


I could not help but think back on this thread and decided to post it. I do not believe in coincidence, most things happen for a divine reason. I do believe that we as humans are permitted the ability to intervene/"stray the course" and royally muck things up (call it the proverbial "give us enough rope to hang ourselves with").

SkinWalker
05-09-2003, 04:04 AM
As a student of Anthropology, I'm fascinated by all religions of the world. In recent discussion at work with some co-workers, I attempted to describe some religions of other cultures when one of my co-workers asked, "how can people believe that stuff?"

It so happened that he is a devout christian... doesn't even work on Wednesday nights so he can go to bible study.

My first thought was that these same people with these "strange" beliefs would have hard time understanding the belief that three persons were really one person while being three persons. They would find it odd that we pray to a wooden dummy nailed to two crossed timbers. But I held my tounge..... gotta work there and all.

Instead, I've been focusing on that question... actually I re-phrased it slightly: why do people believe?

In looking at people in westernized nations, there is a trend of belief that goes beyond religion. People believe in alien visitations merely by hearing or reading stories of government cover-up of UFO landings or crashes. People believe that they are being actively abducted by these aliens. People still believe in Big Foot and the Loch Ness Monster, though both have been proven to be frauds. People still believe in the Shroud of Turan. People believe in ghosts that haunt old houses and people believe in goat sucking creatures called Chupacabras in Texas/Mexico/Guatamala. And the list goes on, and on, and on....

I believe that there is something psychological about all of this, to include belief in religious doctrine. There is some feature in our brains that makes belief a natural state of being. I must admit, I find all of the above examples very alluring and, in my youth, I explored each of them. I was obsessed (when I was very young) with UFO's, aliens, Big Foot, etc. I also subscribed to the religious doctrines handed down to me by my family and neighbors through oral tradition and biblical study.

It has taken an epiphany to break free of this mental trapping. Which now leads to the questions: which is normal? People who believe or those that don't. Is the other abnormal?

We see examples of religion gone extreme even in contemporary times. Jim Jones in Guyana, the Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate, Aum Shinri Kyo, etc. In looking at these examples, one must ask, "how can people believe that stuff?"

I think we could all ask that. But if it is just the extreme religion that is questioned, does that validate or invalidate the less extreme religions. Could not the same processes of "belief" be at work in mainstream religions?

It seems apparent that how we believe must also have its roots in how we learn and how we make inferrances based on limited data. If I tell you that a Jilatwee is an animal, you immediately understand that it has certain characteristics: it feeds, needs water, reproduces with its own species, etc. If I get more specific and tell you it's a bird, you assign even more characteristics.

If I say there are aliens visiting Earth, you think "yeah, right... good movie." But toss in "and the government has been covering it up" and you start seeing the "logic" in it. That's just like the government, afterall.

If you grow up and all your life you hear people around you talking about "god" and how he's watching everything, doesn't like this, doesn't like that, made this and that.... you can't help but make unconscious inferrances as soon as a diety is discussed.

This is all really just some loose babble and I'm starting to ramble... it really is about midnight.

But these are the types of thoughts that I've had the last week or two on the subject of why people believe. I just find it interesting that christians (I'll use that example, since it was the topic of the thread) can analyse beliefs other than christian (UFOs, BigFoot, "pagan" religions, etc.) but not wonder about their own beliefs. Something about pots and kettles should apply there.

C'jais
05-09-2003, 11:03 AM
I've wondered about this some time ago:

When I watch a good movie, I can occasionally lose myself in it - suspension of disbelief, I'm sure you've tried it some time. When watching it, I can accept the outrageous as possible, and the unreal as real. But when the movie is over, I'm perfectly clear that while fascination, it wasn't real. When finished, I immediately try to work that which I saw into my universe.

But where do Christians stand on this?

For example, you are sitting watching X-men. It's a film about people with "mutant powers". Would you, during the movie, think to yourself: "There's no way this could exist in a universe made by God. Such mutant powers are a disgrace to the work God works his ways. It cannot be." Or, would you simply not think about how this would impact a God-controlled "real" universe while watching it?

Now, the movie is finished. Would you then start thinking of ways this movie's fiction could be realized in the real world - how such mutant people are prophets of God's powers (or spawns of Satan)? If, for example, seeing a movie about a girl with telepathic powers, would you try to work that into your universe when the movie is finished, such as seeing her telepathic powers as a sign of God?

Or would you throw the entire movie aside as fiction not to be concerned with in the end?

As for Skin's question: Yes, I think it's natural to believe in something. Both as a child and when seeing a movie, I and many others are willing to forgo natural conclusions in order to accept the realistically impossible.

But again, it'd be interesting to see whether religious people would be more inclined to accept fiction as reality (albeit a reworked one, to make it fit their universe).

Arrok
05-10-2003, 12:27 AM
Some random commentary to C'jais...

For example, you are sitting watching X-men. It's a film about people with "mutant powers". Would you, during the movie, think to yourself: "There's no way this could exist in a universe made by God. Such mutant powers are a disgrace to the work God works his ways. It cannot be." Or, would you simply not think about how this would impact a God-controlled "real" universe while watching it?

I think most Christian's would see this as a miracle and thus is proof of the presence of a force greater than man in the universe.


As for Skin's question: Yes, I think it's natural to believe in something. Both as a child and when seeing a movie, I and many others are willing to forgo natural conclusions in order to accept the realistically impossible.

But again, it'd be interesting to see whether religious people would be more inclined to accept fiction as reality (albeit a reworked one, to make it fit their universe).

Every coin has two sides, and therefore I understand why it's natural for the rest of the world to accept the impossibly realisitic. (I know that doesn't make sense at first glance, I had to review the meanings also before posting. But transposing the words do make a slightly different meaning even if it is splitting hairs. I hope my meaning is understood.) It's in our nature, hence the expression "seeing is believing".


Now please bare in mind, I'm not a hellfire n brimstone literalist in my beliefs. My faith is strong based on what I have been through in life. Yet I'm open-minded enough to consider alternative explanations that lend themselves to explaining both sides.

Example... Creation vs. Evolution?

Is it not possible that the process of Creation was simplified for our simple human minds (simple back then compared to now, if you don't believe that just look at the idiots who lead the Crusades. "I'll go to heaven by killing people who don't believe my message about God and his boundless love and acceptance." Boy they couldn't see the forest for all the trees). Is it not possible that each day of the 7 days of creation were really 1,000's upon 1,000's of years in man's time? Is it really so unbelievable that a supreme diety functions in a manner incomprehensible to a man? With a speed and deliberance immeasurable to man? (again, at the minimum consider man of that timeframe that the stories were originally told). Is it not possible that because these details don't "jive" with our calculations and predispositions that we are unable to be open to alternate explanations?

(Please bare in mind that I do not wish to put down anyone's beliefs. I would be offended if anyone tried to do this to me. I rather would like to further the intellectual parts of this conversation that I have observed and enjoyed in the 6+ pages of this thread.)

BrodieCadden
05-10-2003, 05:57 AM
"Are you too proud to think that your fate is not utterly insignificant and that the universe's pityless indifference doesn't care what happens to you, and excuse this lack of realization by inventing something imaginary to look after you?"

I ask you this: what is pride in a universe where there is no eternal moral code, and therefore definition of right and wrong? With no moral code, who is to say drowning puppies and raping children is wrong? In a universe that doesn't care what happens to us, why should we as a race care what we do to each other and what is done to oneself? Running with your logic everything is subjective, even right and wrong and existence itself: you obviously do not believe in an eternal moral entity, so how can you therefore use morals as a way of insulting the Christians here, calling them proud, when pride itself is subjective and may not even exist.


"Wanting eternal bliss is about as selfish as it gets."

Again you are using morals as a way to debunk religion, when morals themselves are a creation of religious doctrine. In a universe that has no eternal moral code, morals do not exist and neither does selfishness, because everything we can comprehend is subjective, even our conscience is subjective.

C'jais
05-10-2003, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by BrodieCadden
I ask you this: what is pride in a universe where there is no eternal moral code, and therefore definition of right and wrong? With no moral code, who is to say drowning puppies and raping children is wrong? In a universe that doesn't care what happens to us, why should we as a race care what we do to each other and what is done to oneself?

So, you're saying that if there's no God, I can't be a moral person? I can't have morals?
You're saying religion created morals?

Running with your logic everything is subjective, even right and wrong and existence itself

No it isn't. You believe in something subjective, whereas I and others see the need for a definition of the objective.

because everything we can comprehend is subjective, even our conscience is subjective.

Our conscience and the universe are very real.

C'jais
05-10-2003, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Arrok
Is it not possible that the process of Creation was simplified for our simple human minds (simple back then compared to now, if you don't believe that just look at the idiots who lead the Crusades. "I'll go to heaven by killing people who don't believe my message about God and his boundless love and acceptance." Boy they couldn't see the forest for all the trees). Is it not possible that each day of the 7 days of creation were really 1,000's upon 1,000's of years in man's time? Is it really so unbelievable that a supreme diety functions in a manner incomprehensible to a man?

No, it isn't impossible. I'm an agnostic, but I still want some proof. The Bible isn't proof. On the other hand, what you personally believe is proof enough for you, and who am I to say that isn't good enough?

;)

Arrok
05-10-2003, 01:50 PM
Fair enough, just creating something to talk about.

BrodieCadden
05-10-2003, 09:39 PM
"So, you're saying that if there's no God, I can't be a moral person? I can't have morals?
You're saying religion created morals?"

If there is no God (or gods, whichever tickles your fancy) there are no such things as universally established morals. Man is the only animal on Earth to have created religion: and we are the only animal with moral codes. C.S. Lewis would argue that they were built into us by God upon birth and that we can nurture them or reject them, whether or not he is right doesn't matter.

Religion created morals, and they have been handed down through cultures and civilisations over many millenia. Without religion, there would be no morals i.e murder is wrong: because there would be nothing really wrong about it: as there would be no wrong, as all is subjective.

A definition for the objective? What are you looking for a definition for? Any definition is subjective if you try hard enough. I could argue that we don't exist (stupid but I can argue it) and you cannot prove me wrong with any definition, as a definition is making an assumption of some sort as a basis for the definition itself.

"No, it isn't impossible. I'm an agnostic, but I still want some proof. The Bible isn't proof. "

Don't get me wrong C'Jais, I understand what you are talking about completely. I was an atheist for many, many years and an agnostic for just as long. My problem was I was looking for concrete proof of a God and, of course, I never found it. Looking for definitive proof of a God is only tricking yourself and, to me, I was creating a safety blanket using it: for example, if I do die and come mano e mano with a God, then I can just say there was no proof he existed and, y'know, that's reasonable enough, he can't punish me for being stubborn, can he?

The Bible is as close as you are going to get for proof of God without actually making that infamous leap of faith. There is alot of proof in favour of Christian history and doctrine, and there is more than enough to atleast create in ones mind a stern possibility that it is the true religion (if you believe there is such a thing). And from there one must make the leap of faith, cross the bridge, and just believe and give it a try. You may scoff at the idea and say you cannot just make yourself believe something, but trust me, you can.

If you read the New Testament, you may find some things that really surpise you: things that contradict common myths concerning Christian doctrine.

Anyway if you are agnostic then that is more than fine and I respect you no matter what. Part of being a Christian is to accept those with differing beliefs and not patronise and insult them, it is actually part of being just a kind person. But if you are agnostic and looking for definitive proof of God, then you may have to die first and perhaps face the consequence of your fence sitting. Because I do not think you are ever going to find a universal proof of God: it must be personal.

Breton
05-11-2003, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by BrodieCadden
"So, you're saying that if there's no God, I can't be a moral person? I can't have morals?
You're saying religion created morals?"

If there is no God (or gods, whichever tickles your fancy) there are no such things as universally established morals. Man is the only animal on Earth to have created religion: and we are the only animal with moral codes. C.S. Lewis would argue that they were built into us by God upon birth and that we can nurture them or reject them, whether or not he is right doesn't matter.

Religion created morals, and they have been handed down through cultures and civilisations over many millenia. Without religion, there would be no morals i.e murder is wrong: because there would be nothing really wrong about it: as there would be no wrong, as all is subjective.


Morals have always been an important part of human society, all the way since we came down from the trees. What chance would a pack of humans have of survival if they were constantly murdering and stealing from their own people? Not much.

And morals have always excisted, and it will always excist, religion or no religion. Religion is just a way to promote a fixed set of morals (do this, do that, don't do that, or else you will be tortured forever).

BrodieCadden
05-11-2003, 01:35 AM
"Morals have always been an important part of human society, all the way since we came down from the trees."

What? You have made way too many assumptions for your argument to become valid. Firstly it can be argued that we did not come from chimpanzees (I personally think we may have, but again you are making an assumption) and you are also making the assumption that apes and chimpanzees have morals when I have not seen a study that shows they posess these "qualities".

They may have to work together and form alliances to be able to survive as a species and as individuals, but that is hardly displaying morals: it merely displays ambition and intelligence.

You say there is a difference between religious morals and "common" morals, I think I'll dub them. Fine. Where did these "common" morals come from? If they have always existed then you are admitting the existence of an eternal entity, morality. You are contradicting yourself, you obviously do not believe in a god, but you seem to believe that morals are eternal, and eternal entities are impossible, scientifically, so you believe in a supernatural entity that has the power to influence our thoughts and decisions: a fair description of a god.

"What chance would a pack of humans have of survival if they were constantly murdering and stealing from their own people? Not much."

Amorality does not imply stupidity. They may work together as a team, but it is for their own personal gain and not for the preservation of others. If stealing or killing a member of the tribe, perhaps a crippled or mentally challenged member, will help the group thrive as a whole, then it would be the smart thing to do, and it would be done in an amoral world. But if one posesses morals, then this handicap on the group would be allowed to live due to the sanctity of human life, causing the group to have achieved morals but to have slowed down social and economic progression.

So I ask you this: what chance would a pack of humans have of progress and ergo success if they were constantly sacrificing their own ability to become successful by living under a moral code that contradicts selfishness, arguably the very reason for the success of the human species? Not much.

Arrok
05-11-2003, 02:55 AM
The way I see it, morals were passed on to us via religion through the Bible (other religions may reference their spiritual doctrines in the Bible's place). If this had not occured, we would not believe that the given example of murder was wrong. It would simply be "survival of the fittest" and we just dropped a rung back to the animal kingdom.

Having said that, I believe there is only one God. He may have many names, but if this is true then he is misunderstood in many cultures/religions. Only Christianity shows us the way to salvation through faith and grace. Not to be mistaken with "works" or "good deeds".

When I reference grace, I reference it via it's root meaning of the latin word gratia. (The exercise of love, kindness, mercy, favor; disposition to benefit or serve another; favor bestowed or privilege conferred) and the theological definition (The divine favor toward man; the mercy of God, as distinguished from His justice; also, any benefits His mercy imparts; divine love or pardon; a state of acceptance with God; enjoyment of the divine favor).

SkinWalker
05-11-2003, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by BrodieCadden

I ask you this: what is pride in a universe where there is no eternal moral code, and therefore definition of right and wrong? With no moral code, who is to say drowning puppies and raping children is wrong? ....

when morals themselves are a creation of religious doctrine. In a universe that has no eternal moral code, morals do not exist and neither does selfishness, because everything we can comprehend is subjective, even our conscience is subjective.

Consider this: In no society is it considered acceptable to kill your siblings in order to obtain favor or attention from your parents. In no society is it the norm to sit idly by and do nothing while a member of your group is in need of your help (while this happens, it definately is not the norm).

Now, having said this, you have to consider too that with the number of religions in the world, these are universal understandings regardless of your "doctrine." That would indicate that people are capable of forming moral codes without religion. Even chimpanzees (since you mention them in another thread) have "boundaries" that they do not cross among each other and have their own culture.

Most people only assume that religion is the source of morality... that simply cannot be true. I say that morality is the source (one of them, at least) of religion.

SkinWalker
05-11-2003, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by BrodieCadden
So I ask you this: what chance would a pack of humans have of progress and ergo success if they were constantly sacrificing their own ability to become successful by living under a moral code that contradicts selfishness, arguably the very reason for the success of the human species? Not much.

There is actually quite a bit of evidence to indicate that early hominids did, in fact help each other out. When you think of Neanderthal and Cromagnon man, you often think of living in harsh conditions, expect the strong to survive, the weak to perish, etc. Often this was the case and probably the hominids prior to these two "species" did perish if weak, causing natrual selection to favor the more resourceful of their groups.

However, there are many examples of forensic evidence to suggest that sometimes the "weak" survived. By studying bone fragments, teeth, skulls, etc., many injuries and illness could be deduced. One case I remember in particular involved a broken fibula that undboubtedly caused the victim much pain in a world without modern conveniences. Indications were that the fracture healed poorly and occurred many years prior to death.

Therefore, some moral code must have existed that allowed this person's mates to care for him. Since it was many thousands of years before the period of the alleged burning bush, we have to assume that these morals were developed independently. It is possible that a religion was present, and some would say probable, however.

BrodieCadden
05-11-2003, 03:49 AM
I think we differ on what stage of evolution does an ape become a human. Your examples of the weak surviving in early homonic society is not evidence to the contrary of my statement concerning apes: as I do not consider that stage of human developement to be without morals, as I am aware that there is some evidence to support their posessing morals, but there is also evidence, as you said, to support the existence of a religion. I believe that if one is able to question his existence, to philosophy (however simply), then he or she is human. I suppose I gauge humanity on a spiritual sense rather than a scientific.

I have an inkling we also differ on our respective definitions of morality.

C'jais
05-11-2003, 10:54 AM
http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/5/afa/22003mc.asp

" - Are you a good person? Some contend that it's possible to be good without religion. The premise is absurd, but many would agree. People say, "Oh, he was such a good man. He wasn't spiritual. He didn't attend church, read the Bible, or pray. But he had high moral standards."

It is true that some people who are irreligious can live seemingly decent lives, but when they do, they merely borrow from Christian ethics. Moreover, the Bible teaches that the "Lord seeth not as a man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart" (I Sam. 16:7).

What constitutes genuine goodness? John Stuart Mill's famous definition was "that which does the greatest good to the greatest number." This is called utilitarianism. But then, Hitler was a utilitarian. Certainly he thought Nazism was providing the greatest good to the greatest number. Others say, "Good is whatever is right for me." The problem with this philosophy, however, is whatever may seem good for the individual may not be good for another. Without a point of reference for morality, we are constantly pitted against each other in an effort to determine whose values will ultimately prevail.

There are a couple of ways to determine what is good. The first way is to determine whether the act is sanctioned or commanded by God. Down through the centuries various religions have claimed certain works are pleasing to God. But it doesn't matter how zealous or how sincere a work, if God hasn't commanded it, then it isn't good. All that is good must be conformable to divine law.

God's Holy Word tells us what He expects of us. Of course, someone will respond, "Oh, you Christians -- you're all alike! You're so dogmatic. You think you alone are right and everyone else is wrong. How can you possibly be certain what the Bible says is true?" Well, I could answer that question by discussing the remarkable historical, scientific, and prophetical accuracy of the Scriptures. I could talk about its amazing unity, indestructibility and universal appeal. These factors led the great archaeologist, W.F. Albright, to conclude: "The Bible towers in content above all earlier religious literature; and it towers just as impressively over all subsequent literature in the direct simplicity of its message and the catholicity of its appeal to men of all lands and times." No other book has such credentials. The Bible is God's Word and it contains the only transcript of the immutable will of God. Without it, we cannot know or do what is good.

The second way to determine what is good is to check the motive. You see it is possible to do much of what God commands without ever performing one good work because what was done was not properly motivated.

I'm going to say something striking. It's not possible for the human heart in its natural, depraved, sinful condition to produce anything good in the sight of God. The apostle Paul affirms this point concerning the unregenerate when he says, "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Rom. 3:12).

The human heart must first be purified by faith in Christ. Dr. D. James Kennedy says it this way: "Faith is that which lays hold of the justifying and sanctifying grace of God. Faith brings the Holy Spirit into the heart to cleanse, wash, purify, and work within us those holy inclinations and dispositions to do those things which are truly pleasing to a Holy God."

In other words, a good work must proceed from a purified source -- a heart cleansed by faith in Jesus Christ and transformed with a genuine love for God.

People perform a number of so-called "good works" for all sorts of reasons. But unless the act is done out of a heart purified by faith and solely for the glory of God, it doesn't pass the test for what is good. This is why the great cry of the Protestant Reformation was soli deo gloria -- solely for the glory of God. The motive makes all the difference, and the non-Christian doesn't have the spiritual capacity to meet this standard.

Therefore, the reason unsaved people can't get into heaven by their good works is not because they don't have enough, but because they don't have any!!! They are spiritually and morally bankrupt!!!

Let me illustrate the point in this manner. My son, Matthew, is in the United States Coast Guard and is assigned to the United States Coast Guard Cutter the "Eagle". The Eagle is a three-masted sailing ship with 21,350 square feet of sail. This magnificent vessel is 295 feet long and has five miles of rigging. Her hull is built of steel, four tenths of an inch thick, and has two full-length steel decks with a platform deck below and a raised forecastle and quarterdeck. The weather decks are three-inch-thick teak over steel. She sports a crew of 12 officers, 38 enlisted personnel, and 150 cadets from the United States Coast Guard Academy. She is a glorious site to behold.

Nevertheless, it matters not how magnificently equipped, how full her sails, how great her speed, or with what beauty she may travel the seas; unless the rudder properly directs the ship, she will end up on the rocks of disaster.

The same is true for our good works. Beneath the waves of life, unseen by men, is the rudder of the human heart. It either directs our works to the glory of God or turns them back to something else. It doesn't matter how tremendous the work or how seemingly exquisite, we either seek to magnify the Lord or we seek our own advancement and praise. It's the rudder -- the heart's motive -- that makes the difference.


How foolish for people to believe that they can be good without God! How foolish for people to believe that they can be good enough to go to heaven! We are saved by faith in Christ alone -- absolutely nothing else! Until we come to Christ, we don't even possess one good work. But when our hearts are changed by faith in Him, then we are able to perform many good works.

Are you a good person?"

ShadowTemplar
05-11-2003, 06:57 PM
As far as circular reasoning, I donít believe that all religions are based on it.

If you have no outside confirmation, then you have to resort to sef-referencing, which leads to circular reasoning. And if you have outside confirmation, then it's science, not religion. Therefore all religions are based on circular reasoning. q.e.d.

Originally posted by Arrok
For the record, I believe in Jesus Christ as my savior and will continue to know this regardless of what anyone here posts.

Then I have no further reason to discuss these matters with you.

Skin: You oughtta read Shermer's Skeptic: "Why smart people believe wierd things" collumn in Sciam sometime. I think that it may prove useful to you... Or at least interesting.

I think most Christian's would see this as a miracle and thus is proof of the presence of a force greater than man in the universe.



In the fictional context of the movie, there is a power greater than man: The Scriptwriter. It's rule zero of all RPGs: The GM is God. Enter the suspense of disbelief. While watching a movie, or playing an RPG, I suspend my skepticism.

For a few hours gray-haired men with silly-looking sticks can actually throw fireballs at each other, and The Terminator is actually after Conner, and more than capable of surviving a shotgun round in the chest. And the USS Enterprise can certainly break each and every law of nature. But when you turn off the TV or pack away your Character Sheets your skepticism comes back in full measure (mine does at least).

Example... Creation vs. Evolution?

Is it not possible that the process of Creation was simplified for our simple human minds

Aah. By saying so you open a veritable mine of arguments for why the Bible is a rather useless source of information. Y'see, if the Bible is adapted, whether by God or man, to fit a tribal, nomadic, desert society that doesn't even exist anymore, then it cannot logically hold any validity outside of that society (even in the places where it is correct (hell, blind hen can also find a grain, as we say in Denmark), it will not be correct because it is the Bible, but because it is correct (nope, that probably didn't make much sense)).

(Please bare in mind that I do not wish to put down anyone's beliefs. I would be offended if anyone tried to do this to me. I rather would like to further the intellectual parts of this conversation that I have observed and enjoyed in the 6+ pages of this thread.)

Lol. As for C'Jais and myself, you'll be hard pressed to find any beliefs to insult...

May this debate be mind-broadening.

With no moral code, who is to say drowning puppies and raping children is wrong?

The strong. The strong will always enforce his will upon the weak. Is this right? Not if you ask me. Is it just? Not if you ask me. Is it the way the world works? Yes, according to all available evidence, it is.

Why is it wrong to rape people? Because it is against the moral code that we, as a species, has developed. Why is this code to reign supreme? Because it does, and there is no reason to change that (see below).

In a universe that doesn't care what happens to us, why should we as a race care what we do to each other and what is done to oneself?

Because we, as a species, has developed a moral code. See above.

Running with your logic everything is subjective, even right and wrong and existence itself: you obviously do not believe in an eternal moral entity, so how can you therefore use morals as a way of insulting the Christians here, calling them proud, when pride itself is subjective and may not even exist.

I take extreme offence at your notion that we think that everything is subjective. Extreme offence. Ethics is subjective. This does not mean that the rest of creation is subjective as well! The fact that Man evolved from Apes is very objective. The fact that I exist is very objective, too.

morals themselves are a creation of religious doctrine. In a universe that has no eternal moral code, morals do not exist and neither does selfishness, because everything we can comprehend is subjective, even our conscience is subjective.

Bull****. There is a far and wide gap from saying that morals is subjective and to claiming that the entire observable world is subjective. You clear that gap in what we call a "leap of faith". And saying that we make that assumption is called shadowboxing. DO NOT SHADOWBOX ME AGAIN! Ever! Do we understand each other?

This capital mistake aside, morals can exist without being in any way eternal or everlasting. Morals are merely a variable parametre in the system that we call society. Ethics are dictated by the society in which they are formed, and then in turn influence the society that spawned them. Therefore the notion tha religion is the core, or for that matter the origin, of morals is laughable at best.

If there is no God (or gods, whichever tickles your fancy) there are no such things as universally established morals.

Correct. And you will actually find that there is no such thing as a universal human moral code.

Man is the only animal on Earth to have created religion: and we are the only animal with moral codes.

"Man is the only animal on Gaia to have created religion, and man is the only animal on Gaia to have created atomic bombs. Therefore religion created atomic bombs." I somehow fail to be convinced.

What C.S. Lewis did or didn't say about matters religious is irrelevant. As is, for that matter, what people like Newton or Einstein said about this subject.

Religion created morals, and they have been handed down through cultures and civilisations over many millenia. Without religion, there would be no morals i.e murder is wrong: because there would be nothing really wrong about it: as there would be no wrong, as all is subjective.

Let me introduce you to a concept called proof, which you sadly seem to ignore. You have no proof that the

society --> religion --> ethics

contingency is not in fact a

society --> ethics
I
V
religion

or a

society -->
I________II
V________V
ethics --> religion

contingency.

A definition for the objective? What are you looking for a definition for? Any definition is subjective if you try hard enough. I could argue that we don't exist (stupid but I can argue it) and you cannot prove me wrong with any definition, as a definition is making an assumption of some sort as a basis for the definition itself.

And objectivity is making the assumption that what our senses register is correct, most of the time. But that is the only assumption that objectivity makes. And, unlike the universe proposed by a certain (un)holy book, it actually arrives at a consistent result.

There is alot of proof in favour of Christian history and doctrine, and there is more than enough to atleast create in ones mind a stern possibility that it is the true religion (if you believe there is such a thing).

Then why am I never shown this proof, if it is so fvcking abundant?

And from there one must make the leap of faith, cross the bridge, and just believe and give it a try.

*Points to sig*

Because I do not think you are ever going to find a universal proof of God: it must be personal.

And therefore worthless.

What? You have made way too many assumptions for your argument to become valid. Firstly it can be argued that we did not come from chimpanzees (I personally think we may have, but again you are making an assumption) and you are also making the assumption that apes and chimpanzees have morals when I have not seen a study that shows they posess these "qualities".

Are you purposefully misreading his post (trolling)? It can be argued with much weight that we did not come from chimps. The chimps branched off our evolutionary tree (or we branched off, depending on your point of view). And he does not assume that chimps have morals. He states that morals evolved with the human species.

You say there is a difference between religious morals and "common" morals, I think I'll dub them. Fine. Where did these "common" morals come from? If they have always existed then you are admitting the existence of an eternal entity, morality.

An analogy that I am very fond of when confronted witht this kind of nonsense is the Fable of the Milk Commissar:

Every day milk is delivered to your local store. This delivery is accomplished by a complicated network of distribution services. This system was not instated at any one particular point in history. That is, you can't put your finger on the particular spot on the timeline where the "milk delivery system invented" incident occured. So where did it come from? Has it always existed? Certainly not. Was it designed purposefully by some human entity, or, in other words, is there a Milk Commissar sitting in an office somewhere, contoling the delivery of milk? The very notion is laughable, that kind of burocracy is (part of) what caused the breakdown of the Soviet Union. Then it must have been created by an all-powerful God, right? I think that you can see where the logic fails here. Morals, like the milk delivery system, is a result of a complex series of environmental selection pressures, not some grand design.

So I ask you this: what chance would a pack of humans have of progress and ergo success if they were constantly sacrificing their own ability to become successful by living under a moral code that contradicts selfishness, arguably the very reason for the success of the human species? Not much.

By enforcing a code of morals that are above and beyond what is imediately smart, the tribe ensures stability. Stability is beneficial to every member of the tribe. Thus there is a significant selective pressure on developing morals.

C'jais
05-11-2003, 08:53 PM
ST, drop the condescending tone.

No need to go ballistic on that guy, especially seeing as he wasn't even talking to you.

Breton
05-11-2003, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by BrodieCadden
"Morals have always been an important part of human society, all the way since we came down from the trees."

What? You have made way too many assumptions for your argument to become valid. Firstly it can be argued that we did not come from chimpanzees (I personally think we may have, but again you are making an assumption) and you are also making the assumption that apes and chimpanzees have morals when I have not seen a study that shows they posess these "qualities".


Firstly, I never said a word about chimpanzees. Heck, squirrels live in trees, right? So I may have meant that we come from squirrels. Simply enough. So I don't know if it is me who is making the assumptions here, as you assumed I was talking about apes and chimpanzees. ;)

But anyway, we have enough evidence for that Man does come from primates to assume that we do.

You say there is a difference between religious morals and "common" morals, I think I'll dub them. Fine. Where did these "common" morals come from? If they have always existed then you are admitting the existence of an eternal entity, morality. You are contradicting yourself, you obviously do not believe in a god, but you seem to believe that morals are eternal, and eternal entities are impossible, scientifically, so you believe in a supernatural entity that has the power to influence our thoughts and decisions: a fair description of a god.

I think you mistook me a bit here. I did not mean that morals were an eternal force, I meant that they were, and are, an important part of the human society, and as long as the human society goes on, so will morals.

"What chance would a pack of humans have of survival if they were constantly murdering and stealing from their own people? Not much."

Amorality does not imply stupidity. They may work together as a team, but it is for their own personal gain and not for the preservation of others. If stealing or killing a member of the tribe, perhaps a crippled or mentally challenged member, will help the group thrive as a whole, then it would be the smart thing to do, and it would be done in an amoral world. But if one posesses morals, then this handicap on the group would be allowed to live due to the sanctity of human life, causing the group to have achieved morals but to have slowed down social and economic progression.

There excists no ultimate moral code, each person and each society has its own morals, and none of these morals are wrong. Therefore, there is nothing that is called amoral, since there are no laws about moral.

If killing a crippled member of a tribe is good for the tribe, then it can be a very moral thing to do. Killing is not amoral, beacuse as long as the killer thinks he is doing the right thing, it is moral. It is not possible to point out "That tribe is moral, that tribe is amoral" and so one, since there is no code or law for morals.

So I ask you this: what chance would a pack of humans have of progress and ergo success if they were constantly sacrificing their own ability to become successful by living under a moral code that contradicts selfishness, arguably the very reason for the success of the human species? Not much.

You should know the difference between morals and moral codes. One person can think it is right of a poor person to steal from a rich person to survive, while another person can think it is wrong to steal anyway. None of these persons are immoral.

Religion created moral codes, but they never created morals.

BrodieCadden
05-11-2003, 10:46 PM
"If killing a crippled member of a tribe is good for the tribe, then it can be a very moral thing to do. Killing is not amoral, beacuse as long as the killer thinks he is doing the right thing, it is moral. It is not possible to point out "That tribe is moral, that tribe is amoral" and so one, since there is no code or law for morals"

With that argument I was using the prior point that I misunderstood you on, that there was an eternal moral code. So due to the misunderstanding the point I made is moot.

Shadow Templar I give up trying to discuss anything with you, you are too insulting and opinionated to have a proper discussion with. You are also asking for proof in a philosophical discussion, which makes no sense whatsoever. All philosophy is based on non tangible theory, if you want proof then you are looking in the wrong place. Good day.

"Religion created moral codes, but they never created morals."

That (of course) is your opinion and I suppose we can delve into that tangent of the conversation where both sides can be argued quite vehemently, but do you want to? Religious debating is getting a bit tired, y'know...

I suppose one could argue that morals are moral codes, and there is no difference, whilst a definitive seperation can be argued too. I would also argue they are seperate.

Also, all the things I argue aren't necessarily what I believe: I am just trying to have a fun conversation :)

munik
05-12-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by BrodieCadden
you are too insulting and opinionated to have a proper discussion with.I gotta say this one again, you really do need a thicker skin. Insulting and opinionated, sure, but I would say mildly so. The heated discussions are almost always good ones, because it means people have been passionately moved by the discussion. Usually. Just let it slide, like water off a ducks back, if it really bothers you so. Or take enjoyment it. Either way, don't let it stress you. Some people just discuss that way, that doesn't mean it's wrong.

BrodieCadden
05-12-2003, 04:34 AM
I have a very thick skin on most occasions, but on matters of religion and philosophy being insulting and condescending is very insulting and I take offense. Since it is the internet it is not really on a personal level and I do not lose any sleep, but I do try and sever the conversation before I do become personally insulted, as I did with Templar.

ShadowTemplar
05-20-2003, 09:22 AM
BrodieCadden: I am very sorry that I acted in a manner that was deemed insulting (still, browse this place a little, and you'll find that my post was not remotly inflammatory when compared with some of the other user's comments). While I stand by what I said, I regret that I said it while I was too tired to say it the right way. Please accept my profound apology, and let's leave it to that. However, I still think that the point stands: Morals is a variable, the exact details of which is determined by the surrounding society, and which in turn determines the outlook of said society.

Also, you may want to notice that the notion that (a certain) religion is the be-all and end-all of morals, is very insulting to people who do not believe, because you make the (baseless) assumption that said religion is right, which is similiar to shouting out loud somewhere in Israel that Hitler was a great guy (though he's probably the one to blame for the existance of Israel, but that's another story).

Arrok
05-26-2003, 05:11 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Arrok
For the record, I believe in Jesus Christ as my savior and will continue to know this regardless of what anyone here posts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I have no further reason to discuss these matters with you.



That's fine, so why did you?



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think most Christian's would see this as a miracle and thus is proof of the presence of a force greater than man in the universe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the fictional context of the movie, there is a power greater than man: The Scriptwriter. It's rule zero of all RPGs: The GM is God. Enter the suspense of disbelief. While watching a movie, or playing an RPG, I suspend my skepticism.

For a few hours gray-haired men with silly-looking sticks can actually throw fireballs at each other, and The Terminator is actually after Conner, and more than capable of surviving a shotgun round in the chest. And the USS Enterprise can certainly break each and every law of nature. But when you turn off the TV or pack away your Character Sheets your skepticism comes back in full measure (mine does at least).


The question was asked as if these movie events were real, not if they were in context of movie. Your answer is therfore invalid. Though your right, God is the ultimate "Scriptwriter" and "GM". You were closer to the truth than you care to admit.



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Example... Creation vs. Evolution?

Is it not possible that the process of Creation was simplified for our simple human minds
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aah. By saying so you open a veritable mine of arguments for why the Bible is a rather useless source of information. Y'see, if the Bible is adapted, whether by God or man, to fit a tribal, nomadic, desert society that doesn't even exist anymore, then it cannot logically hold any validity outside of that society (even in the places where it is correct (hell, blind hen can also find a grain, as we say in Denmark), it will not be correct because it is the Bible, but because it is correct (nope, that probably didn't make much sense)).


No, I merely suggested that one tale be too complex for us. That does not mean that the entire source is such. The adaptation is not one of tribal man vs modern man, it would be one made in consideration of the comprehensions of man vs. God. This does not make it any less valid today than it was then.

But let me make an example to see if I understand you. So your saying that if you were to tell a child that it's bad to hurt someone, because they do not know what it means to kill... that it's no longer valid to tell an adult the same thing. Is it no longer valid because they understand the more complex version now? I think not. The adult just has a greater understanding of the situation.

No, I didn't understand the Danish saying. Feel free to explain if you like. My curiousity is peaked.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Please bare in mind that I do not wish to put down anyone's beliefs. I would be offended if anyone tried to do this to me. I rather would like to further the intellectual parts of this conversation that I have observed and enjoyed in the 6+ pages of this thread.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lol. As for C'Jais and myself, you'll be hard pressed to find any beliefs to insult...

May this debate be mind-broadening.


Now that's not true. You clearly believe in a great many things, if it were not so you would not take the time to respond to so many posts with such passion. Some of those posts being borderline of belittling or insulting at times. While they may or may not be correct, you none the less have beliefs, and much room for debate. Interestingly, at times you show much more flare of religious fanaticism than those of us who have faith.

Jah Warrior
05-26-2003, 08:06 PM
christian = sucker

Kain
05-26-2003, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
christian = sucker

Thats rather naive. Then again...I'm not a Christian...but its still naive.

Jah Warrior
05-26-2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by MydnightPsion
Thats rather naive. Then again...I'm not a Christian...but its still naive.

naive???

trust me 16yrs of church going only convinced me of the utter hypocrisy of the church...

Besides once The christian fait confronts logic they are screwed...

C'jais
05-26-2003, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Arrok
That's fine, so why did you?

The problem is that you do not even consider the possibility that you might be wrong.

If someone takes this stance, I can understand if nobody's interested in hearing their self-righteous views.

Of course, you could state ST has the same view on things, and I wouldn't flinch.


The question was asked as if these movie events were real, not if they were in context of movie. Your answer is therfore invalid. Though your right, God is the ultimate "Scriptwriter" and "GM". You were closer to the truth than you care to admit.

That was not the issue.

ST explained why he was able to suspend disbelief, and reassume it when the movie's over.

No, I merely suggested that one tale be too complex for us. That does not mean that the entire source is such.

But where to draw the line, and who's drawing it?

Who decides if the Genesis is a metaphor or not? Who decides what in the Bible is?

Again, the Genesis as presented in the Bible is false information. Until a few hundred years ago, people did not even begin to question its literal interpretation. As such, it has failed if it was meant as a guiding fairytale.

The adaptation is not one of tribal man vs modern man, it would be one made in consideration of the comprehensions of man vs. God. This does not make it any less valid today than it was then.

Yet now, we're able to comprehend how man was created. It's very much a question of now and then.

So your saying that if you were to tell a child that it's bad to hurt someone, because they do not know what it means to kill... that it's no longer valid to tell an adult the same thing. Is it no longer valid because they understand the more complex version now? I think not. The adult just has a greater understanding of the situation.

Yes, I'd consider it a very patronizing attitude, and assume he thought of me as a child, if one were to say that to me. Because I do understand what it means to kill. I've made my own thought about it, my own morals, and if someone comes up to me and automatically assume that I'm at the mental age of a child, then I'd get pissed.

Same with the evolution story.

No, I didn't understand the Danish saying. Feel free to explain if you like. My curiousity is peaked.

It's the same as the one that goes: Even a clock that has stopped working will still show the correct time twice a day. Did that help?

At any rate, it means even a hopelessly misguided and blind idea/person/belief can still be right about a few things once in a while.


Interestingly, at times you show much more flare of religious fanaticism than those of us who have faith.

Bingo.

Atheism's a belief too, though I'm sure ST won't say that he is one. But you are right.

Wudan
05-28-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
Besides once The christian fait confronts logic they are screwed...
The shadow of ignorance conceils all. Logic can't peirce this armor, intellect can only refuse it.

Thrackan Solo
05-29-2003, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
christian = sucker

WOW! Thats not very nice. Can you back that up somewhere. What about Hinduism they believe in more crazy sh*t than Christians.
I feel as if people have some kind of beef with christians. Why not other religions?

Breton
05-29-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
WOW! Thats not very nice. Can you back that up somewhere. What about Hinduism they believe in more crazy sh*t than Christians.

How come? I think the Hinduism belief is just as crazy as the Christian belief. Both teaches illogical and crazy stuff.

I feel as if people have some kind of beef with christians. Why not other religions?

Believe me: Islam is way more critizised than any other religion. Even though Christianity and Islam is very similar to each other.

Thrackan Solo
05-30-2003, 08:48 PM
How come? I think the Hinduism belief is just as crazy as the Christian belief. Both teaches illogical and crazy stuff.

Actually, it is much more logical than Hinduism.Christians dont believe in reincarnation.

BTW, Evolution is way more illogical than Christianity.

And I dont see any threads debating Muslim.

Crazy_Ivan
05-30-2003, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
naive???

trust me 16yrs of church going only convinced me of the utter hypocrisy of the church...

Besides once The christian fait confronts logic they are screwed...

Logic sets the boundaries on our believes. Some things mentioned seem a tad far-fetched. But its the job of man to decide how we interpret what we see.

On a side note, earlier I think Darklighter said that he couldn't understand how we could worship the same God that ruled over people in the Middle East that were being killed. Well, to put it as the bible would say it, those people are not dying due to the hands of God, but rather the hands of man. God isn't deciding that its there time to go. Some soldier's assault rifle is.

On yet a different topic....I went to church Sunday and we discussed the difference between being Religious and being a Christian. When you hear of a religious person, they do things to please God. They try to live good lives so that God will accept them later on. Well, as human nature goes, these acts are usually not meant to please God and in the Bible it even says we will never be able to get to his level. The only way, is a belief in Jesus. He died so that we wouldn't have to struggle through good works to get to God. You could think of religion as "do" (as in do good deeds) and christianity as "done" (because Jesus did them for us).

SkinWalker
05-31-2003, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
Actually, it is much more logical than Hinduism.Christians dont believe in reincarnation.

Just that a prophet can return from the dead... a man can live in the belly of a whale... all the world's animals can fit on one boat (but only two of each species)... that a large body of water can be parted to allow a bunch of slaves to pass... that a demon can inhabit one's body... etc, etc.

Actually, the idea that one's soul or spirit may return to inhabit a cow is fairly mild in comparisson.

Originally posted by Thrackan Solo


So step over to the Evolution vs. Creation Myths/other scientific theories (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99670) thread and prove it. ;)

Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
[BAnd I dont see any threads debating Muslim.

The above thread encompasses "Islam" since it has its own set of creation theories".... I, too, would like to see creation ideas other than the Christian dogma discussed, however, it appears that this is the only cult represented here.

Joetheeskimo
06-17-2003, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
Yes I am a christian.

I am a Baptist to be exact.

and I don't beleive you should be baptized as a child because you are supposed to be baptized as a public statment that you have faith and want to be a christian. When your a baby you don't have faith you dont even know you exist yet. How many of you remember being baptized? You only know your baptized because you were told.

I strongly believe in the doctrins of grace.
I am against abortion, infant baptism,and women preachers.

I don't believe in speaking in toungs, or a secret rapture. I believe in a very loud and public rapture.

Catholics,and Jehovah witnesses are not christians even though they call themselves christians.

And Christianity is not a religeon its a faith!

And duh you have to believe in the Bible to be a christian, thats like saying I don't believe in Christ but I'm a Christian. not believing in the Bible and still praying and stuff is like saying your an ian with no Christ on the begining.

I agree with everything Mandalorian said, except I'm a Presbyterian, so I got baptized as a baby. I'm glad that I'm not too religious though, because I would get on other peoples nerves. Otherwhize, I speak freely about it.
And Christianity is actually the best path...it's easy because God provides for your needs.

Father Torque
06-19-2003, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Christianity differs from other major religions quite a bit.

When you walk around the streets you don't see anything religious. Go to Islamic or Hindu countries and you see the difference. There everything is controlled by religion: what you wear, where you can go and with whom, what you're allowed to do and when/with whom/where, what you can eat, what you can say etc. etc. etc.



I dont know if someone has mentioned this but I will:) . The thing about Hindu and Buddhist run countries where people have to dress and eat in the way the government and religion chooses. I would just like to say that here in America, we have a little statement in the decloration, that states, that we are seperated from church and state, meaning we can have the right to our own beliefs. Also I am a true christian:)

* Removed irrelevant part of Luc Solar's quote. Let's try to keep quoted text to a minimum rather than quote the whole post. -SkinWalker

C'jais
06-20-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Father Torque
I would just like to say that here in America, we have a little statement in the decloration, that states, that we are seperated from church and state, meaning we can have the right to our own beliefs. Also I am a true christian:)

Seperation of church and state?

"One Nation under God"?

"Introduction" to other biological theories? (namely, only Christian creationism - we wouldn't wanna teach the kids ancient viking creation mythos, would we?)


Real question: "True Christian"? Which of the Christian cults do you follow, and which of these get into Heaven? Only yours? Baptists, Mormons, Catholics and the Calvinists as well? Where does God draw the line in the sand?

SkinWalker
06-20-2003, 02:28 PM
It's interesting to note that the phrase, "one nation, under God, indivisible," doesn't appear until 1954 in our Pledge of Alliegance."

Similarly, the motto, "In God We Trust," doesn't appear on our money until 1956.

The original Founding Fathers, to whom I have immense reverence, made efforts to keep church and state separate. In fact, several of the Founding Fathers were agnostic and even atheist. Those that held religious convictions recognized the sanctity of being able to practice whatever religion you chose in private without fear of ridicule or state-sponsored retribution. By looking at original documents of the era, you will notice distinct separation of church and state.

The culprits to our current misconceptions that the United States was always "one nation" that trusted itself to god? President Eisenhower... he signed both bills, largely as a means for re-election ("I Like Ike"). He did this at the suggestion of Matthew R. Rothert, president of the Arkansas Numismatic Society. Senator McCarthy was just getting warmed up around the same time, so there was a lot of misjudgement going on in government.

I, for one, am ready to be rid of both exclusionary tactics.

Joetheeskimo
06-21-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
Seperation of church and state?

"One Nation under God"?

"Introduction" to other biological theories? (namely, only Christian creationism - we wouldn't wanna teach the kids ancient viking creation mythos, would we?)


Real question: "True Christian"? Which of the Christian cults do you follow, and which of these get into Heaven? Only yours? Baptists, Mormons, Catholics and the Calvinists as well? Where does God draw the line in the sand?

Well, I agree, America may have "One nation under God" and "In God we trust", but honestly, America itself is hypocrysy. Maybe the majority of Christians live in America, but America is so proud, and Christians should be humble.

And for the "real" question: I believe that only Calvinists and Baptists are true Christians, becasue John Calvin, who started the first Calvinists, is against the Catholics. And have you ever read all the stories about Catholic Priests who rape the altar boys?:rolleyes:

However, ther are some catholics who are true Christians also, not all are on the wrong path.

Originally posted by Jah Warrior
christian = sucker

Jah warrior, if i were a mod, I would throw you out and lock this site from you 4ever. what that is called is chat-killing and insulting someone else's belief. If you don't like christianity, then ignore it! You don't have to state your opinion in such a harsh way!! :mad:

...who cares what you think anyway? :p

SkinWalker
06-21-2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by joetheeskimo5
And for the "real" question: I believe that only Calvinists and Baptists are true Christians, .... And have you ever read all the stories about Catholic Priests who rape the altar boys?

However, ther are some catholics who are true Christians also, not all are on the wrong path.

This is somewhat confusing to me. If "only calvinists and baptists are true christians," then how can "some catholics" be as well? Is there a defining criteria from your perspective?

I only ask because I find the belief systems of others fascinating. I've met those of many denominations of the christian faith who don't consider the other denominations "true." I'm always interested in their defining criteria.

By the way, there are many instances where Baptist, and perhaps even Calvinist, officials have commented crimes. Some even involving pedaphilia.


Originally posted by joetheeskimo5
Jah warrior, if i were a mod, I would throw you out and lock this site from you 4ever. what that is called is chat-killing and insulting someone else's belief. If you don't like christianity, then ignore it! You don't have to state your opinion in such a harsh way!!

While his post was a bit shorter than I would have liked, it was relevant and on-topic. The title of the thread is questioning true christianity over hypocrisy. His post, albeit in two words, indicated he believed hypocrisy was christianity's defining characteristic. I agree that it was insensitive, but only insulting from a limited perspective. Most christians, many are even my friends, are insulted at my views and beliefs, just as I am insulted at the assumptions that they make at times.

I must say, that most of my christian friends, some right here in this forum, make attempts to respect the sensitivities of non-christians. I do likewise, though it's also true that we both fail at this from time to time. I try not to hold it against them and I hope they do the same. It's hard to have serious discussions, where friends have differing opinions, and still not say things to irritate them.

Having said that, you have to understand that your comment about true christians is probably very offensive to some that are not Calvinist or Baptist.

Originally posted by joetheeskimo5
...who cares what you think anyway? :p

You apparently did. Enough at least to give him four lines and a smiley. Jah's a good guy. He just tells it like he sees it. I can't say that I completely disagree with him on that point that you found offensive either.

Crazy_Ivan
07-15-2003, 03:56 AM
I personally dont distinguish denominations. I'm a Methodist. But when people ask "Oh what religion are you?" I just respond "Christian". For some dumb reason people I know think being a Methodist means you aren't a Christian. I bet they're a lot of people who get this stuff everyday. "Oh your a Catholic? Thats too bad im a Christian." Stupid things like that are what separates Christians. Sometimes the only thing that differs between denominations is the name of the person that founded them.

As a true Christian, I respect all other religions as well as my own.