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Metallus
01-22-2003, 12:14 AM
I am an American, and I can't say that I'm too proud of this fact, especially in recent months. Those elected to represent have instead voted to give the president the power to go to war on Iraq nearly unanimously, merely to save political face. I feel betrayed and helpless. I will not support this war, but I don't know what I can or should do to oppose it.

Now before any of my more "patriotic" Archie-Bunkerish brethren decide to flame me, I will make it quite clear that I am no commie, pinko, faggot, or whatever other entirely new and creative label you've decided to pin on me for feeling the way I do.

I'd like to believe I've got the right to be a pacifist, although I'm not sure that's ever been true in the United States.

Does anyone else (from the US or not) feel similarly? If not, I'd love to discuss your differing views without some of the crudeness we see at other places (http://www.fark.com). I'd like to know what British people think of the PM's undying support of Mr. Bush Jr.

mercatfat
01-22-2003, 12:18 AM
Move to Seattle and protest at every availible opportunity. Listen to Rage Against the Machine whenever you can't march.

In short: you can't do much.

Sarah
01-22-2003, 01:11 AM
I think America in general is a very frightening place to live right now, and those baby boomer Republicans lulled into their wonderful sense of complacency are doing nothing about the crap that their offspring are going to have to deal with.

Here are what I think are some major problems with the "democratic" government we have:

1. God bless the beloved, antiquated electoral system we have that allowed the state of Florida (Jeb Bush is the governor's name, if memory serves me correctly ¨ ¨) to stage a coup to get a president "elected" not by the American people, but instead via media pressure and other lame trickery (not widely publicized in an effort to not undermine the president's authority once he was, indisputably, in office).

2. Two branches out of three (executive and legislative) funded and controlled by corporations, and therefore two out of three branches that make concerted effort not to pay any heed to environmental concerns or really ANY socially responsible concerns that would go against corporate agenda.

3. Corporations (our REAL government) who don't even believe in any kind of social responsibility... their only ethic is profit. Giving back to a community is a mere PR function that happens only when the media gets involved, because bad publicity ==> uneasy investors ==> stock prices down ==> less profit. **** the poor people we're screwing over: Nothing motivates America like the bottom line.

4. My personal favorite: Consumerism with a capital P for the biggest Pig nation in the world. Consumers addicted to buying useless **** that will momentarily amuse them, please them, make them feel more wealthy, that they perceive will make them look more wealthy... you name it. Impulse buys! Have you ever REALLY looked at impulse buys?! Those are not only made from earth's precious, finite resources... so is their packaging... and ALL of it polluted our air and water while it was being manufactured and transported! LOVELY!

/bleeding heart liberal environmentalist wacko

Yes... I am the suffocatingest of the suffocating Americans. I don't even feel like this Iraqi war could possibly be a country in which I supposedly have a say.

I honestly dream, nearly every day, of being an expatriate some day.

Sarah
01-22-2003, 01:18 AM
Damn... I'm a rabid liberal if you prod me a little. It's almost scary.

Rogue Nine
01-22-2003, 01:53 AM
Bleh. What are you to do about it really? There isn't much, short of kidnapping the president and making him listen to your 12-gauge. :p

Move to Europe. That's what I'm gonna do.

Darth Groovy
01-22-2003, 02:49 AM
Yeah i'm with Rogue Nine, I was gonna move to the UK, but I just couldn't get exited about bangers and mash..... oh well.

Alien426
01-22-2003, 04:17 AM
The USA have the better entertainment value. I often see this when an internet shop proclaims that they only send to US and Canada, and also when I have to patiently wait for my favorite TV series to be broadcast here. It's good to see that other people want to leave their country as well. Maybe we can trade. ;)

I understand that you feel there should be no war. Apart from not wanting to loose a friend/relative who is a soldier and has to go there, it's also really dangerous to go poking a stick into a bee hive (as in "Arabs hate Americans"). The civilists will of course also suffer as much as in any war, which should be prevented.

On the other hand, I have this nagging feeling that it could be worse if the Iraqis were left to themselves, possibly planning one of the devices that are said to be produced there (nuke, bio weapon...).

Darth Eggplant
01-22-2003, 06:41 PM
War Again

Don't you know
we got smart bombs
It's a good thing
that our bombs are clever
Don't you know,
that the smart bombs
Are so clever,
they only kill bad people now
Don't you know,
though our kids are dumb
We got smart bombs,
what a joyous thing now
Here we go,
so let's drink a toast
To those clever bombs
and the men who built them

There they go now,
there go all my friends
There they go now,
marching off to war again
Smiling proudly
with their heads in the clouds

Yeah, yeah (yeah, yeah)
Yeah, yeah (yeah, yeah)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah yeah

Don't you know,
this is better
Than any video, friend,
it's an action movie
Here we go,
watch the bad guys
Get their butts kicked,
really makes me feel good
Here we go,
watching CNN
The adrenaline
rushes through my veins now
Don't you know,
it's a feel-good show
Electronic bliss,
it's a video, video

There they go now,
there go all my friends
There they go now,
marching off to war again
With their bright flags
waving in the wind
There they go now,
marching off to war again
Smiling proudly
with their heads in the clouds

Yeah, yeah (yeah, yeah)
Yeah, yeah (yeah, yeah)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah yeah

Aren't you glad
we got smart bombs
It's a good thing
that our bombs are clever
It's a shame
that our kids are dumb
But our bombs are smart
- what a lucky thing now
Don't you know,
it's a feel-good show
And it's suitable
for the whole darn family
Come on out,
everybody shout
Give a big salute
to our ingenuity

Don't you know,
this is better than
Any video, friend,
it's an action movie

Here we go,
watch the bad guys
Get their butts kicked,
really makes me feel good
Don't you know,
it's Nintendo
Really gets the blood
going through my veins now
Don't you know,
it's a feel-good show
Electronic bliss,
it's a video, video

There they go now,
there go all my friends
There they go now,
marching off to war again
With their bright flags
waving in the wind
There they go now,
marching off to war again
Smiling proudly

There they go now,
there go all my friends
There they go now,
marching off to war again
With their bright flags
waving in the wind
There they go now,
marching off to war again
Smiling proudly
with their heads in the clouds
See them smile now,
marching all in a line, yeah

Yeah, yeah, yeah
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
There they go now,
yeah, yeah, yeah yeah
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
There they go now,
yeah, yeah, yeah yeah
Whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa, whoa, yeah, yeah

There they go now,
there go all my friends
There they go now,
marching off to war again.


Oingo Boingo
album: Boingo
1994

RaptorII
01-22-2003, 10:45 PM
Where to begin? Short and sweet, if the bad continues, what will need to be done would piss off 'ole Lincoln, but thankfully the guy is long dead, so his irritation will be minor.

As ďgreatĒ as this country is supposed to be, it doesn't mean crap when we ignore our own constitution. We are in a dangerous time in America, and not because of foreign terrorists. The media has people scared ****less, and it is only getting worse as time goes on. Oh! But here comes the politicians to satiate the populous with radical plans to get rid of these frightening things that go bump in the TV. But do they really?

Scary things keep coming up, so what are we to do? I know! Letís let congress give away one of the forced powers upon them, and have them just hand it off to another branch of government so as to tip the balance of power, and **** up some checks, and oh I donít know, balances! Yes! Giving the executive branch the right to declare war more or less officially, really will get things going! While we are at it, why donít we build a ****ing clone army? Oh right, playing with eggs that will be thrown out anyway is wrong.

On a slightly off topic note, about the word ďGodĒ in the pledge of Allegiance thing, most people dismiss it as a crazy hippy who just was using his daughter to get into the spotlight. While that may not be totally wrong, at least he was standing up for what he thought was right, and what he Ďthoughtí was made pretty clear by some crazy dead guy a few years back who I guess didnít want us to end up like England and have a Church-State mingling party. Not that it seemed to do a fat lot of good, as it is just not so overt in the connections here. All those people bitching about him, I donít see you out there trying to make a difference, and if you are, please, let me know. On that note, I would like to point out that I think it foolish to pledge allegiance to this Country, as obviously at any given time it might be temporarily in the wrong, now pledging to the Constitution...

Look, this is bad stuff here.

ďIf youíre not with us, youíre against us.Ē

Sounds really logic based and peaceful eh?

I for one donít want to live in a world like Warren Spectorís Deus Ex, or hell, North Korea. If you donít watch what is going on carefully, there is a good chance something might just slip by.

I am prepared to stand up for what I believe in, and I am willing to do some things I wouldnít otherwise do. But I will do whatever it takes to keep this place free, and keep the ideals of the Constitution. It may not be perfect, but nothing known by humanity is.

One thing is for certain, without massed numbers, we can do nothing. Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., et al didnít accomplish what they did alone it took thousands of people. Who will rise up now if the time comes?

Just to be clear, I am not talking about rising up like a bunch of hippies either. I am talking out and out revolt, but one that is safe to the people. Harming people would only further the cause for the people trying to take away the freedom that exists in the USA, and violently force extreme beliefs on the rest of the world at the same time.

Let us just hope it never comes to such a time when such words are taken with the utmost seriousness. But for now, laugh if you must, because you can.

JofaGuht
01-22-2003, 10:49 PM
AHHH!!!! THANK YOU FOR SAYING WHAT I FEEL!

Ugh, I live in a an area where they don't tolerate that kind of talk. I am atheist liberal in a conservate christian community of rednecks and dumbasses, so don't even get me started. A place where hate crimes are family values, where parenting is beating your child, and where the open-mind is the most criticized.

There are things you can do, Met. But you have to do them collectively. Like the hippies. Unfortunately, the modern trend of that are the preps, and they are most known for falling victim to consumerism, commerciallism, pro-war, or whatever the highest in power tells them to believe in.

Unlike what some people are saying in this forum, I guarentee you if you work hard enough you will be able to rise and make statements that people will listen to, or who knows, maybe even become the next leader of the limits for people owning land between these imaginary lines called the USA.
Don't give up and move out, that's what a coward would do. Believe me, Any individual is able to rise break these structures. I believe in anyone who can.

I'm afraid i myself don't know what you can do, but try starting petitions for what you believe in. It works wonders. Its been doing all kinds of things to Missouri right now. They legalized medical marijuana here because of a regular guy's petition full of other regular guy's names. I even did it in my school last year, I got a lot of people to agree with me and now we have vending machines again.....even though there is a large difference between vending machines and war.

hoax
01-22-2003, 11:20 PM
I personally say down with vending machienes and war! Everybody I know (no joke) is againt this war. Im not exzactly who here (US) supports it.

Just wondering what part of the country do you live in? (JofaGuht)

Darth Eggplant
01-23-2003, 12:16 AM
Kudos for the post Metallus,
I do not think I have seen such
long and thoughtful posts,
possibly ever.
(besides my rantings)
it is good to see passionate
and profund responses by members
of our forum. Kudos to all who
politicize in this thread.

ZaXeriaw
01-23-2003, 02:46 AM
Personaly I'm against this war, but maybe it's necessary to show the power of US & NATO for Mr. Hussain? But I don't think war is the right way... A good football- or soccer-match would be cool... :o

ZeroXcape
01-23-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Sarah
Damn... I'm a rabid liberal if you prod me a little. It's almost scary. agreed. the liberal thing; not the proding.

mercatfat
01-23-2003, 10:05 PM
http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/images/war.116.gif

JofaGuht
01-23-2003, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by hoax
Just wondering what part of the country do you live in? (JofaGuht)

ugh, the midwest. I live in the middle east jesus of St. Louis, like Wildwood or whatever it's called. I go to a "blue ribbon winner" school that is "nationally recognized". If that's one of the best schools in the country, I feel so sorry for those who go to the bottom of the barrel schools. The midwest, right in the middle of the redneck areas and the cold northern whatever you call them. No influences from culture center lands.

Actually, I used to live in a really crappy neighborhood in downtown Missouri. But so many people stole our stuff that we moved to Wildwood, out of a great private school I was going to. Then into the Rockwood district. Full of people who highly oppose against my kind.

And yes, some of the people I live around think war is the right way to go in situations like these. A lot of people think that way. If we all thought against war, there probably wouldn't be one going on right now.

hoax
01-23-2003, 11:04 PM
I was starting to wonder if anybody was a supporter. :D
Possibly I don't get outside the same group of people as often as I think I do. :-)

Doubleplus GC
01-24-2003, 07:38 PM
Wow, Sarah, how'd you end up in Texas?

There is something you can do.

There is currently the framework of a plan being laid to impeach Bush. Search the web for it. The odds of Bush being thrown out of office (or, hell, even going on trial) while the war goes on is infinitessimal, but if enough people put their support behind the movement we can maybe put him on the defensive.

And all is not hopeless. Last Saturday here in San Francisco a protest march was held which proved to be the largest anti-war rally since Vietnam. And, I'm proud to say, outside of two morons who ran off and broke some windows, the rally completely failed to get violent. We can all recall the Rodney King "protests" and remember that people protesting reprehensible acts can act just as reprehensibly.

Y'all should head on down to LucasFans and check out my own personal anti-war thread. It's proving to be pretty snazzy. Just don't accost our other threads too heavily, we're a little xenophobic.

Cheers 'n' peace.

Sarah
01-25-2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by hoax
I was starting to wonder if anybody was a supporter. :D


My parents support the war... and they're the taxpayers. It amazes me how people who were alive during Watergate trust the government as much as my parents do. Sigh.

Tall Guy
01-26-2003, 06:32 AM
It's hard to know how much truth is in the many reports that come back from Iraq about weapons of mass destruction being produced or stored. At Brits we are very much in the dark as to what exactly is going on.

If Iraq is as much a threat as it's being reported then I believe we should do what is nessesary to protect the people of Britain and all the other countries caught up in this mess. Already in Britain there have been a few terrotist operations intercepted my special forces and recently there were a number of people arrested for possession of Ricin.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2640987.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2636105.stm - About ricin.

I know that if we go to war (and i think we will end up doing) many inocent people are going to die. Children are going to die.

The thing is, there can be no war against the people who plot to bring this world to its knees without inocents being killled. The solution? No war. but is it just a temporary solution? If these people are as evil as being reported then it seems they will never stop, unless we stop them first.

JofaGuht
01-26-2003, 05:44 PM
Yep, you should expect war. So far, a lot of our other allies have disagreed to help us, but the UK is going to.

As for the people we are going against, none of us know exactly how "potentially evil" they are. It seems we just all have to wipe out all the powerful dictators with powerful weapons.

Will this war be the harbinger of peace? Nope. After we finish the war on this specific "ism" of terror, there will probably more war on some other concept globally impossible to go against. That's what I think at least.

Darth Eggplant
01-27-2003, 08:22 PM
there's a certain irony
when pop ups keep, popping up
for the armed forces.
especially when trying to post
on this topic.

JofaGuht
01-27-2003, 08:48 PM
Well, since Eggplant is I think I'll inflict some good war lyrics myself.

"Stand rigid for the next battle
Peace means reloading your guns
The love for life is all hatred in disguise
A carnival creation with masks undone"

scabb
01-30-2003, 05:52 PM
I truly fail to see the point behind this war. I don't see how such lengths could be reached in order to obtain a drop of oil. Perhaps there is a population boom coming, and Bush justs wants to thin out their numbers? Perhaps Television networks are tired of featuring special 'Vietnam' or 'World War 2' episodes, and we need something else to occupy the minds of the voters? Or maybe the Gods are playing 'Risk'. Either way, we have to face up the inevitable, which is not exactly inevitable, nor is it comprehendable thanks to Turner & Friends and their love of half-truths.

So Hussein has weapons of mass destruction. Doesn't every country? The US has 14000, Russia has 28000, China, the UK and France have 400 each, India has 100, and Pakistan, North Korea and Iran are definetely holding a few. If America really needed shot of Saddam, then why not just carpet bomb the whole of Iraq behind our backs, because I fail to see how Bush is going to get re-elected anyway. Perhaps his PR people, Spin Doctors and other assorted lackeys think that he could add another four years to his belt by surviving an impeachment, or maybe George is using the old "Look over there!" trick, to divert your attention while he snatches some candy from a nearby infant.

To be honest, I don't feel strongly either way. It seems almost normal that there is a "greater possibility of war" and "trouble ahead", and from what the media spit at us, I don't know which side to take or which facts to believe. However, I would gladly revolt against the corrupt government (Pick a country) and the corporations that turned our culture into little trinkets that we have emptied our pockets for.

What America needs is some good old dictatorship, but not the nasty kind. The kind that tells these companies to "Shut Up" and "Stop doing that".

If Bush is such a noble leader, then he should be leading the troops into Baghdad.

Gabez
01-30-2003, 06:04 PM
Yeah, Iím strongly against the war too. But then Iím against any type of war, really. Against any type of violence.

I took part in a partition against it, which was then sent to Tony Blair, or so Iím told. To be honest I donít know anyone supporting this war either, apart from the people with all the power.

Darth Eggplant
01-31-2003, 12:37 PM
TBS is playing The Patriot this sunday.
I think the UN should impose the ancient
codes of warfare again.
A nation state can only go to war
against another nation state
'IF' the leaders of that state
go to war on the front lines themselves
like Alexander the Great etc...
and they also must have 2 or more
sons or daughters fighting along side them
on the front lines.
that way as Quark from DS9 says:
If the cost of War is too expensive
it just should not be fought.
also the 'art of war'
says what is good for the troops
is good for the general.
same conditions,
same rations,
same Latrines.
so if G W Bush wants to go to War
then he and missus Bush
better make some babies,
which gives Sadam and the weapon inspectors
all the time they need to clean up
their act.

also war in the middle east is going to give Norht Korea an opportunity to do
what so ever they like,
maybe even start a war themselves.

war is always about the pretty polly.
follow the gold and you follow the story.

G8 nations should start energy effective
non oil and gas solutions
ie solar wind fusion
anything and leave the oil alone.
it was the downfall and extiction
of the dinosaurs.
'hey there mighty brontosaurus,
you ruled the earth
and came before us
and now we're walking in your foot steps.'

Police paraphrased.

another thing is
if the west is indeed the devil
and we are all just infidels
we should simply do what the middle east
wants. leave them alone.
do not poison or influence their
lives, women and children,
just leave them alone.
so no contact or aid
or commerce or anything.
we go our way and they go there's
and no more immigration from those
places ie: anywhere predominatly Islamic.
it is not the average persons on the streets problem; but they get assistance and they rally, burn flags throw stones and say
get out of our country.
so we should.
if their leaders are going to be corrupt
and torture and attack them.
if their oil rich shieks are going
to take all and give none, well that is
their lot in life. they need to do
something about it themselves.
france had a revolution so did the usa.
we helped the shaw of Iran and now Iran is against the west.
we helped the Kuwaities (begrudgingly)
and now they hate the west too.
and Turkey is a UN country
but they the people want the US devil
folk out and dead. and so does Pakistan
and noe African Islamic countries
and the Philipines etc.

one last point.
historically things seem trivial
it is just time and distance
making them seem unreal.
but Christianity
waged 11 or so Crusades
to free Jeruselem,
and I do not think the people living there
at the time thoguth they needed liberating.
plus there was one crusade called something
which had women children old men and ducks
and farm animals marching to free the Holy
Land. now if that is not Fanatical?
I do not know what is.
Judeaism was at it peak during the rise of Rome. the whole Missaih thing was they
wanted god to send them their saviour
who would defeat the romans and lead
the jewish people to freedom. that is one of the reasons a main reason why they did not
accept Christ as their saviour, he was not on their side.
so Christianity and Judeaism have both had their moment of political and radical
accendance. and now millenia later
they are kind and laid back more or less
and the most radical christian
action you are forced to endure
from christianity is having a born again christian come to your door, or be approached on the bus or subway by someone asking you if you know who jessu christ was?
and on the jewish note, well not being jewsih
I do not know but they must have an equivilant situation. mainly jewish comics
do their public exorcisisms for them.
and they can be quite entertaining.

it is difficult dealing with todays world Islam is in its Zenith and wnating and need ing to expand. growing pains and adolescence
is a tough time to f\go through,
espescially when the teenager is the size of an entire nation.

(also) and this is the last thing.
any time there is or has been
a terrorist attack
there is ALWAYS, ALWAYS
a group claiming responsibility.
911 had no such occurance.
I am not a conspiracy nut case
but you have to think.
who did it?
you bombed out caves in nowhere land.
kind of like kicking 'Rainbow Rock'
in Alice Springs.
what was the point?
and did it make you feel better?
no so now because your daddy
had a beef with the next door neighbour
you have to too.

I wanted Sadam dead and out of office
for setting fire to the oil fields and
causing a massive enviromental condition
which affects the entire world.
that is what the UN should work
and worry about the intentional
and mailcious act of affecting
the entire global community.
yet they put out the fires
and nothing was done.

that in my opinion
is something worth
fighting and dying for.

MeddlingMonk
02-02-2003, 12:48 AM
Is war ever necessary? In a limited sense, sometimes yes. If you are attacked, you have the right (and the need) to defend yourself. That applies equally well to individuals and groups, including nations. That's probably the only time war is necessary, when survival demands it (such as when Germany invaded Russia in 1941). But there is also the notion of the just war: this includes self-defense but also includes defense of an ally. In that sense, while the Gulf War was not necessary to the coalition ranged against Iraq, it was just because it was to liberate Kuwait which had been invaded and annexed by Iraq.

In the present case war seems neither necessary nor just. No one is being directly threatened by Iraq; the expressed motive is to rid Iraq of WMDs. It is being justified on the basis of pre-emption. The sticky part is, that while many nations posess weapons of mass destruction few have ever used them. Only two low-yield atomic devices have ever been detonated in warfare; chemical weapons had only general usage in WWI; the use of biological weapons is a little bit iffy. Most countries shun WMDs, even those which have them. One exception has been Iraq. It has used chemical weapons during the Iran-Iraq war (and against its own subjects at other times), may have used biological weapons during the Gulf War, and is known to have been actively pursuing projects to 'improve' on these weapons and pair them with long-range missiles. Does this justify pre-emption? Probably not. Granted, Iraq could if left alone create devices that could create wide-spread death and devestation with ease, but just as it would be unthinkable to execute a man because you think he might commit murder, I don't think you can attack a country because it might be developing WMDs. Containment seems a far saner approach.

Gexx
02-02-2003, 02:05 AM
I believe that it is wrong to invade a country on a hunch. But I also believe that the US can't leave Iraq unchecked, to do whatever they please. I think the best action in this case is take up defense. The other day while listening to the radio I heard a reporter talking about a kind of "Great Wall of China", a wall stretching across all borders of the US keeping aliens and "potential terrorists" out of the country. I don't think it's come far enough to put up physical barriers. But her idea was a good one. If we put our powers into developing defenses instead of spending it on sending troops to war, I think it would be possible to develope systems or technology to protect the US.

RaptorII
02-02-2003, 03:00 AM
And we shall call it the Berlin wall! ;)

Walls do keep people out... but they also keep people IN. Which is not really something I think the USA wants to even be suggesting to its citizens.

Sure, many things would make the USA safer... but many of those things would prevent it from truly being the USA.

45-60 days, and we go in. Strike command and com centers, and factories. Then lay classical siege of Bagdad. Of course that is only one of the semi-declassified tactics being looked at. But it will probably be some form of that. It won't be a fast skirmish like the Gulf War was. This will take a while longer.

There just has to be some better way. Let's just hope it doesn't go urban.

It will be interesting if they actually provide anything near proof before they actually strike though.

Gexx
02-02-2003, 12:38 PM
Yes, but I wouldn't care if the government would listen to my calls, I would give up some freedoms, if it would actually help save lifes. But as I said I don't think it has come far enough to have to put up barriers.

Doubleplus GC
02-16-2003, 06:26 PM
Here:

www.votetoimpeach.org

and

www.axisofjustice.org

The fact that most people (willfully) forget is that during the Iran-Iraq war when Saddam committed all the atrocities that we're allegedly trying to stop him from committing, we did jack ****ing **** to stop him. Neither did we attack him afterwards. In fact, he was our ally at the time (since he shelled out the oil), so we patted him on his little dictatorial bottom and let him go right ahead.

Interesting that the US has backed dozens of dictators in other countries, denying freedom to thousands and sometimes millions of people simply because it was in our best interest (war on drugs, war on communism, war on other people trying to be peaceful when we had dibs on peace!), and yet here in Iraq where there are many organizations that want nothing more than to get Saddam out and institute a peaceful democracy, we give up the covert ops and coercion and say "no, we're gonna bomb him ourselves!" So, of course, most of the people who want freedom from Saddam will get all blowed up.

In other news: this war effort has spawned the fastest and strongest pre-war protest movement in US history. This is still a democracy, and we can stills top this.

GendoTheGreat
02-17-2003, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by scabb
I truly fail to see the point behind this war. I don't see how such lengths could be reached in order to obtain a drop of oil.

That's because it's not just about oil; it's about the economy, too. The fact is, Bush and his government are desperate for a war. Why else do you think they lash out at anyone who attempts to put into practice their bull**** cover policy of "dimplomacy first"?

What's crippling the US economy right now (and thus, the world's) is not the threat of war, but uncertainty as to whether there will be a war or not. Whether it's decided one way or another, the difference is marginal - the economy will stabilise because the investors know where they're putting their money and why. Then you have another problem - a long, drawn-out war is going to drag the economy right back down again. What to do? Does anyone here really believe the US needs the hundreds of thousands of troops they're amassing just to invade a country with no cover, no secure supply lines and military tech thirty years behind theirs? The troops are there because the White House wants the conflict over quickly, (and before the start of the next financial year, I'll warrant.) A quick war will level out the economy, but the promise of a huge oil bonus at the end of it all will send it through the goddamn roof. The value of the US dollar will skyrocket, fuel prices will go down around the world, and the UN will be falling all over itself to get back to kissing Bush's ass. More money and more power for the American government, and the credit for it all goes to everybody's favourite meglomaniacal redneck cretin. Yeehaw.

That said, I could give two ****s what happens to Iraq; America can turn it into a sheet of glass for all I care. While it is a shame that a lot innocent people will be hurt, if the World Trade Centre incident taught us nothing else it's that innocent people will always be the first to suffer for the arrogance of totalitarian governmental systems. It's like a universal law or something.

scabb
02-17-2003, 09:20 AM
Yes, I understand the economic implications, that post just wasn't the most serious. As far as I am aware, the US (and the UK) want to keep their stronghold on the oil market by either strengthening the sanctions so France or Russia can't dig their muddy little paws into the barrels of gold; Or simply by toppling the Iraqi government and sticking a puppet in the place of Saddam to run the country and all of its resources.

However, **** the US, and the UK. **** the economy. There are clearly better ways to go about this than by bombing the hell out of a country. For a start, America consists of either fat, overpaid idiots or the poor as hell. Money won't be taken from the pockets of the idiot though, because he and his chums run the place. They deserve to suffer; when it's the choice between yourself suffering and another dying, there should be no choice. There are ways round this problem. Why not legalise these so-called 'evil' drugs, for a start? Cannabis is itself a great deal safer than alchohol; and Ecstacy would be if it could be cleaned up. The American people consider themselves just for donating a couple of their extra dollars to charity, when that just proves that they have far too much green down their trousers.

And why do you think **** like the WTC happens when America just stick their nose everywhere looking for dollar signs, and bombing the crap out of countries for no reason whatsoever. Having slaves certainly made the economy better and the lifestyle of the American citizen easier, so is it a good idea to bring them back?

**** Bush; America needs to find a new way to bring in the bucks. There are other ways to run cars and generate electricity, and other ways to make money.

Darth Eggplant
02-17-2003, 11:07 AM
I do not think
the americans realized at the time,
when they changed the slogan
for their military;
how poetically ironic
it was going to become.
Army Of One

JofaGuht
02-17-2003, 07:03 PM
lol. I totally agree eggplant "Be all that you can be" was a better slogan.

SmartDragon
02-20-2003, 01:58 PM
why can't they just wait, the 2nd resolution is coming out soon (end of month)and then Hans Blix will tell Saddam that he has to destroy the weapons that failed the tests, if he doesn't by the 14th march then the UN will probably agree with Bush and everyone can have the same plan.
War sucks but if war is needed and happens then it may as well be well organised with everyone on board.