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RichyBoy
01-23-2003, 11:13 AM
Hey all! It's been quite a while since I last posted on this board, but I just saw one piece of news that I thought you'd all love to hear. Sorry if it's already been mentioned, but I didn't see any other threads or news posted about it, so here goes...

According to HomeLan Fed, during Acitivsions fiscal conference they let slip that a sequel to Jedi Outcast is in the works, scheduled for release in fiscal 2004 (mid 2003 - mid 2004). You can find the article here:

http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=11538

They've also got a link to an audio recording of the conference call so you can here it for yourselves. They've tried to confirm it with Lucasarts and Raven, but haven't had any reply yet.

For those that can't be bothered to follow the link, here's the news post in full:

Originally posted on HomeLAN Fed by John (JCal) Callaham

During Activision's third 2003 fiscal quarter conference call earlier today (you can listen to the conference call right here), execs at the company mentioned in passing that a sequel to last year's Quake III engine powered first person shooter Star Wars: Jedi Outcast was in the works to be released in their fiscal 2004 time frame (April 2003-March 2004). Since this was mentioned in an Activision conference call, it suggests that the sequel will once again be a collaboration between Activision and LucasArts. HomeLAN contacted original Jedi Outcast developer Raven Software (which is owned by Activision) but was refered to Activision's corporate offices for an official response. The Activision rep has so far not gotten back to us with a statement. A spokesperson for LucasArts would not comment on what the Activision execs said today when asked by HomeLAN.

So there you have it. Not concrete by any means, but certainly promising - and the fact that the source is Activision themseleves is a pretty damn good sign.

DeTRiTiC-iQ
01-23-2003, 11:47 AM
please, please, please don't let it be on the Quake 3 engine and not be developed by Raven.

acdcfanbill
01-23-2003, 01:07 PM
well, IMHO, since they have been working on it already, and this seems a bit too soon for a sequal, it might be an expansion for JK2... Just my guess tho, we'll have to wait a few days to see what becomes of it...

OnlyOneCanoli
01-23-2003, 02:30 PM
I'm thinking it'll just be an expansion as well. I'll be watching this story with great interest.

X-Vector
01-23-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
please, please, please don't let it be on the Quake 3 engine and not be developed by Raven.

I second this - please, please, please make it 3:1 in stead of 2:2.

Jolts
01-23-2003, 03:54 PM
I really hope its just an expansion, if they only spend another year working on this game don't expect much more than 20 more levels of running around killing everything.

I would rather see obi wan make it back to pc in the orginal form it was supposed to be than play as kyle again...

ryudom
01-23-2003, 04:02 PM
yeah its definitely not a sequal, still, an expension would be excellant...

BlackDove
01-23-2003, 05:53 PM
there's definatly gonna be a sequal to jk2 due to the fact that the story leaves you with the hint that stuff will be going on after the story...werther it's gonna be an expansion or a new game...that remains to be seen...we'll definatly see on the e3

ryudom
01-23-2003, 06:02 PM
err i misread the release date, i was thinking march-april 2003... hmm who knows

SaberPro
01-23-2003, 06:15 PM
Let the Countdown begin.... :)

GonkH8er
01-23-2003, 08:31 PM
They should show something at E3..... We'll let you know :) The official announcement will probably be before then.

jp-30
01-23-2003, 09:23 PM
starwars.com recently revealed new games were in the pipeline set between AOTC and EpIII, as part of a "clone wars" story arc, also encmpassing books and comics.

In my opinion LEC would be likely to be using existing engines, technology and resources when it comes to knocking out Clone Wars games between now and Episode 3.

So I have a feeling this new "Jedi Outcast" expansion/ sequel will not feature Kyle Katarn, and will be set during the Clone Wars.

GonkH8er
01-23-2003, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by jp-30


So I have a feeling this new "Jedi Outcast" expansion/ sequel will not feature Kyle Katarn, and will be set during the Clone Wars.

I severely doubt it... It wouldn't be a sequel to JK2 if it was based round the movies, especially seeing as JK2 takes place a while after ROTJ.....

ryudom
01-23-2003, 09:57 PM
yeah, lol. it would be cool to have a whole new prequel game set in the timeframe of KOTOR though... fighting tons of sith, ahhh

jp-30
01-23-2003, 10:01 PM
yeah, lol. it would be cool to have a whole new prequel game set in the timeframe of KOTOR though... fighting tons of sith, ahhh

You mean, like this? (http://www.lucasarts.com/products/swkotor/)

:p

SaberPro
01-23-2003, 11:38 PM
Maybe Tavion would be the big boss in JO sequal...it sure makes sense because you don't hear from her after the encounter at Bespin

NerfYoda
01-24-2003, 02:36 AM
With a release date in March - April 2003 I'm sure this is an expansion pack and not a full blown sequel. I'm curious if they'll add new gametypes and weapons like they did in MoTS or will it just be more levels.

jp-30
01-24-2003, 04:38 AM
Uhh.. they're talking about the next financial year .

ie. April 2003 to March 2004 ...

FK|FallenOne
01-24-2003, 05:02 AM
Well hopefully they'll smooth out the gameplay, especially in CTF. Here are some MP things I think they should include.

1. Patch fix of the discon bug for duels.
2. Make absorb TRULY absorb. Like when you're running with speed and absorb and you get pull whored you shouldn't slow down with absorb on. Every other force power doesn't inhibit movement when you have absorb on except for push and pull.
3. MORE CTF MAPS. Some of the 3rd party maps are good, but no one downloads them except clanners. Every time we have good games going and server switches to one of these maps all the randoms end up leaving the server and the games essentially die. With more maps from LEC/Raven/Activision/whoever, there'll be more variety for BASE CTF. (YOU PEOPLE THAT PLAY CTF AND DONT DOWNLOAD THE CUSTOM MAPS SUCK! :) )
4. New guns with less splash damage. JK2 has more splash damage guns then any other FPS I know. Usually an FPS will have 1 maybe 2 weapons that have a splash damage effect, IE Flack, Rockets. JK2 has Heavy Repeater, Flechette, rocket launcher, Demp and thermals. Introduce some weapons that actually take more precise aiming.
5. FIX THE DAMN FRONT DOOR IN BLUE BASE ON YAVIN TEMPLE TOURNAMENT CTF!!! That thing is hella annoying. I can't count how many times I've gotten killed trying to get back to my base to cap because that door got stuck and wouldn't let me in.
6. Some new force powers would be nice. I'm getting bored with the one's available.

SP stuff:
Well I wasn't too impressed with the single player game. It was ok, but to me it was almost too linear. Anyways, I'm not a big single player gamer anyways but here's a few things I'd like to see in it.

1. Resolution to Tavion
2. Like MotS, have it concentrate on another character along with Kyle. Like maybe have some levels where you're Luke or Mara Jade, or even another Jedi.
3. Show Kyle and Jan getting it on! :) (joke, just kidding)

ryudom
01-24-2003, 08:35 AM
^yeah i agree. i also think it'd be good to have the saber a little more potent in CTF and FFA matches, like 3x or something.

You mean, like this?

yes thats time frame i was talking about. i want an FPS there though, rather then an RPG

Walwi Makno
01-24-2003, 09:58 AM
2. Make absorb TRULY absorb. Like when you're running with speed and absorb and you get pull whored you shouldn't slow down with absorb on. Every other force power doesn't inhibit movement when you have absorb on except for push and pull.

So I could just turn on absorb and hop like a rabid bunny over any pit I want? I say it shouldn't slow your movement while on the ground, but behave the same in the air.

DeTRiTiC-iQ
01-24-2003, 10:28 AM
Bunny-hopping takes skill. Currently in this game you are PENALISED for being better at bunny-hopping. In Quake 3, having better technique made you win a game, in JK2 having better technique makes your pull/push fodder.

Fair?

I think not.

Bilbo Skywalker
01-24-2003, 11:36 AM
I dont think its fair that absorb would totally abosrb pull and push. I saw this discussed on twl, and think the best suggestion would be having a narrower impact point for pull / pusj, meaning you actually have to aim at the person, rather than just be facing them. Also pull and push should use more force power to stop whoring. I think being imune completely would kill this game off, as those who have mastered bunny-hooping and circle-strafing would be abolutely over powering to those who cant do it as well or at all. From a newbie pov, seeing these guys rocket off and you running after them at about a quarter the speed would be disheartening.
I mean i can bunnyhop fairly well, but there are still guys who bomb off about twice as fast as me, so i use a pull to slow them a little, then shoot.



:wavey:

FK|FallenOne
01-24-2003, 03:32 PM
So you're FOR inhibiting the skilled players and making the game more newb friendly? I'm sorry but the game is newb friendly enough. I think it should reflect skill and not who can pull whore the other teams carrier the best. I'm mean please, how hard is it to push one button over and over to keep a level3 speed user with absorb on in place? That's skill? Come on. Absorb should do exactly what it says ABSORB. It shouldn't affect your movement if you have it on. Grip whores don't affect you with it on. And that's a more powerful force then pull or push. Lightning doesn't either.

AKPiggott
01-24-2003, 04:10 PM
I wonder if this has anything to do with the Jedi Outcast survey that LucasArts conducted several months back. Remember, they asked which movie characters you would like to see and when abouts you would like it to be set, so I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a clone war title.

jp-30
01-24-2003, 04:42 PM
^ exactly.

I severely doubt it... It wouldn't be a sequel to JK2 if it was based round the movies, especially seeing as JK2 takes place a while after ROTJ.....


Let's not forget Jedi Knight Morgan Katarn was probably in the Clone Wars.... maybe we could play as him in a "prequel"!


I still think another Kyle game is most likely, but a Clone Wars era game would not surprise me in the least - and would make a welcome setting change IMO.

Also "It wouldn't be a sequel to JK2 if it was based round the movies"... the Clone Wars arc is set between Episode 2 and 3.

Toonces
01-24-2003, 04:48 PM
A couple more links to the story.
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/news/0,10870,2909499,00.html
http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=1242003-71443

I'm almost willing to put my money on a completely new game now. The release date is sometime in 2004 meaning that Doom III should be out by then. I'd fully expect that the Doom III engine will be used.

All I know is that all my models will be ported over, and enhanced, complete with normal mapping, bump mapping, and all the other goodies I can squeeze in there :D

The Truthful Liar
01-24-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by SaberPro
Maybe Tavion would be the big boss in JO sequal...it sure makes sense because you don't hear from her after the encounter at Bespin

SaberPro! You're back! Planning to stay long or will you disappear on us again? :]

ryudom
01-24-2003, 08:14 PM
i think a custom engine would rock... i loved the jk1 engine

recombinant
01-24-2003, 08:56 PM
Prolly an expansion pack, if they're follow the same pattern as with Elite Force. Doesn't really make sense to write a whole new game.

Hopefully it will be released before 2004, but I am really hoping that it might mean that they'll release the SP code after the expansion pack is released....

We'll see.

Emon
01-24-2003, 09:05 PM
I'm almost positive they wouldn't use the Doom III engine. Not only are they LucasArts and Activision, two of the most idiotic publishers ever, working with the Doom III engine takes much more time than traditional game engines, partly because making the textures takes five times as long now. I highly doubt they could get a decent game on that engine in one year.

I hope it's just an expansion, or that Activision guy had a serious comprehension problem.

recombinant
01-24-2003, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by Emon
I'm almost positive they wouldn't use the Doom III engine. Not only are they LucasArts and Activision, two of the most idiotic publishers ever, working with the Doom III engine takes much more time than traditional game engines, partly because making the textures takes five times as long now. I highly doubt they could get a decent game on that engine in one year.

I hope it's just an expansion, or that Activision guy had a serious comprehension problem.

Exactly. It's just not reasonable when you think about it. Activision's going to want to sell as many Doom III units as possible anyway, so why take away from its glory?

The conference call does not suggest that the JK2 sequal is a Doom III product, but they do suggest that several products are in the works based on it. But the two were mentioned in different contexts, so I'm willing to bet that they're not going to throw away a product they just finished to turn around rewrite it.

Maybe in 2005? ;)

Emon
01-24-2003, 09:24 PM
I would love a sequel in 2005. 2004 is too soon, especially for the mod community. What about big projects like the DF mod? Sure, people will play it, but when you've got a sequel that comes out in no time, one of two things happens:

1. Everyone goes to the new game and the old game is overshadowed.

2. People stick to the old game because the new one is rushed and sucks.

ryudom
01-24-2003, 09:29 PM
yeah, but it'd still like an expension before then heh

SaberPro
01-25-2003, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by AB_Legion
SaberPro! You're back! Planning to stay long or will you disappear on us again? :]

Should be back half time :)

Still somewhat busy...

GonkH8er
01-25-2003, 08:12 AM
If it's an expansion, then it's the same engine, maybe a little changed like in mots, with coloured lighting.


It's it's a sequel, it's probably the same engine too.



I'm 98% certain it'll be the modded Q3 engine either way

X-Vector
01-25-2003, 10:25 AM
Apart from release date related concerns, does anyone ever stop to wonder if perhaps the DooM III engine would actually be an appropriate choice for a new DF/JK game?

One of the strong points of both DF and JK was that they included truly wide open vistas (pre-Unreal), somehow I don't think Carmack's new tech works as well in an outdoor setting as in a claustrophobic indoor environment.

As I don't like JO's Q3 based look and 'feel', I hope that if a totally new game is in the works, it will use a proprietary engine.

BallisticWookiee
01-25-2003, 11:17 AM
As good as Doom 3 looks, I dont think it would suit this game style at all. I think the Unreal 2 engine which is different again from the UT2003 engine and better looking would be a better choice if this is to be a completely new title. If it is just an Add-on once again using the Q3 engine, I wont be too upset, perhaps maybe alittle disappointed, but I will still wait after this game with great anticipation.

If a new story line is to come about, I'm hoping they will perhaps look beyong the Imperial Remnant and hopefully into the war against the Yuuzhan Vong, with all the twitst and turns, political intrigue and backstabbing that has been occuring. Perhaps Kyle hooks up with Kyp and his "dozen or so" :) and they go on a mission to rescue hostages and Jedi being held by the Vong and find subtle hints at the deception and traitorous goings on in the senate....

But I guess we will have to wait and see, but I do hope they get away from the Imperial side of the story, it's been overdone way too much. Anyways, I'd just like to say hi again, this is my first post in a VERY long time. :) Glad to be back. :D

razorace
01-25-2003, 09:50 PM
Plus, there's the little fact of the 4 player only, client/client, multiplayer.

Jolts
01-26-2003, 06:21 AM
if raven is making the expansion/sequel it will be using an id engine, when have they ever not used an ID engine?

If someone else is making it for lec, I think the halo 2 engine would be the best engine for a star wars game.

JDKnite188
01-26-2003, 02:44 PM
OMG THANK YOU DUDE WHO SAID SOMETHING ABOUT A STORY INVOLVING MORGAN OR RAHN! TEH 1337NESS!

Now that would be a good story. Play as Morgan or Rahn. It would be a JK prequel in the eyes of another.

Me happy.

Spider AL
01-26-2003, 04:39 PM
Play as Morgan? He wasn't a Jedi. Never even used what latent Force abilities he possessed.

As for Rahn, sure he's a Jedi... but he was crap, Jerec crushed him easily despite his years of training. Kyle defeated Jerec one week after finding a lightsabre in a garage, because he's elite. JK's still Kyle's. :)

razorace
01-26-2003, 04:41 PM
if raven is making the expansion/sequel it will be using an id engine, when have they ever not used an ID engine?
There's no way a JK product being release in next year could be done with the Doom 3 engine. There just isn't enough time!

Jolts
01-27-2003, 12:38 AM
yup, I'm 99% sure it will be same old q3 engine, possibly with some new updates to it...but I wouldn't expect much.

razorace
01-27-2003, 02:16 AM
Well, I'd assume that it would be based off the JK2 code instead of the base Q3 code. :D

Jolts
01-27-2003, 02:46 AM
sorry, I don't state the obvious...they better add some karma type physics into it....even crappy obiwan let you force throw a box down stairs tumbling into a group of battle droids...

razorace
01-27-2003, 04:49 AM
I doubt it. The current JK2 physics are primative and would take ages to upgrade.

jp-30
01-27-2003, 09:25 PM
> Play as Morgan? He wasn't a Jedi. Never even used what latent Force abilities he possessed.

As far as we know... LucasArts have been know to employ "revisionist history" to get a storyline to work for them. Kyle Gave up his force powers too, for a while, and had to relearn them.

There's no reason why Morgan couldn't have been a jedi, who gave up his force powers later in life.

You can't rule things out just because current EU literature has told a slightly different story.

> As for Rahn, sure he's a Jedi... but he was crap, Jerec crushed him easily despite his years of training.

And as we've seen in MotS it's not beyone the realm of possibility for you to play as more than one character in a DF game.

All I know is that LEC is comitted to releasing a number of games set between Episodes 2 & 3, spanning the Clone Wars.

To me it would seem entirely possible that a JO Expansion could indeed be a "prequel" set during this time. Whether it would feature Morgan, Rahn etc is of course total speculation... but you can't totally discount the possibility.

Spider AL
01-28-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by jp-30:
There's no reason why Morgan couldn't have been a jedi, who gave up his force powers later in life. You can't rule things out just because current EU literature has told a slightly different story.

Slightly? Try "completely". Besides, people have been suggesting Morgan precisely because he's part of JK's canon. It's only fair to point out his PLACE in that canon, specifically, not a Jedi-shaped place. More a farmer/rebel shaped place.

Originally posted by jp-30:
And as we've seen in MotS it's not beyone the realm of possibility for you to play as more than one character in a DF game.

And MotS was good, in my opinion, there's no doubt of that. But I found it good because it developed Kyle's character well, even though you weren't playing AS him. Mara was at best, irrelevant and tedious as an addition in herself.

Originally posted by jp-30:
To me it would seem entirely possible that a JO Expansion could indeed be a "prequel" set during this time. Whether it would feature Morgan, Rahn etc is of course total speculation... but you can't totally discount the possibility.

I don't think anyone's been speculating, as much as suggesting. I don't think suggestions involving Rahn or Morgan have any particular merit, personally.

I certainly wouldn't wager a large sum of cash on the idea that Morgan and Rahn won't be playable in the next game, but that's because I know LEC does a lot of silly, silly things, all the time. ;)

Sapaca
01-29-2003, 02:24 PM
Yes, I agree, not more Imperial stuff. I also think it would be good to do a sequal on a different engine. We need some change!!!


Please use the Unreal 2 engine! How bout the Lithtech engine?

Torque?

Mercury?

Saber3D?

ANYTHING BUT Q3!!!!!

:cool:

Vagabond
01-29-2003, 04:53 PM
What I would like to see in any Jedi Outcast Expansion or Sequel, is:

1. In Multiplayer: Class-Based gameplay, similar to the "personalities" in Mysteries of the Sith.

2. In Multiplayer: The ability to create a character that is able to use both Light and Dark Force powers, as in Mysteries of the Sith.

3. In General: If a Sequel were being created and not an expansion, I would prefer that the Unreal engine be used.

4. In General: Joystick support that works correctly in both Single and Multiplayer - and I don't want to debate the merits of joystick -vs- mouse.

These are my most basic wants - but I could easily go on and on about other cool things I'd like to see.

Emon
01-29-2003, 08:10 PM
I just realized something. It certantly could be a sequel, it might be an expansion, or it could be another Star Wars game not related to the DF saga at all. All we know is that the media interperted it as a sequel.

Sapaca
01-29-2003, 08:16 PM
Towards the start of this post, that's what they were talking about. The new game is either

1.About Morgan Katarn

2.Obi-Wan

3.The Cone War

4.The extended universe.


:cool:

acdcfanbill
01-29-2003, 08:56 PM
Yea, we dont know anything yet, LEC nor Raven wont confirm anything. So its still the waiting game :D

WickedBadMan
01-29-2003, 10:17 PM
I would rather wait until 2006 for the Doom 3 engine, rather than get the crapola quake engine again. Can you imagine a saber duel that looked like a real saber duel (Physics + Graphics)? I'm kind of tired of the hack n' slash wanna be jedi crapola.

Finalnight
01-29-2003, 11:03 PM
Lets get our facts straight about the engine.
Doom ]I[ is being made by ID. Quake IV is being made by Raven. Quake IV is a heavily modified version of the Doom ]I[ engine made in the spirit of Q3A and UT2K3. Most likely this release will be a JKII expansion pack, and in 2005 a QIV based JKIII will be most likely be released.

To help you understand what each engine is meant for here is a equality chart
Doom ]I[=Unreal II
Quake IV=Unreal Tournament 2003
Quake III=Engine currently for making cheap games and or expansion packs

PS, I hope the game is so advanced that it completely demolishes my system and requires a minimum of 2.5 Ghz CPU and a NV30/R300 DX9 Vid card. And that it recommends a 3.0 Ghz CPU and a NV35/R350 vid card.

Break_dF
01-29-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by WickedBadMan
I would rather wait until 2006 for the Doom 3 engine, rather than get the crapola quake engine again. Can you imagine a saber duel that looked like a real saber duel (Physics + Graphics)? I'm kind of tired of the hack n' slash wanna be jedi crapola.

Do you realize how utterly impossible it will be to implement *true* saber combat in an fps?

razorace
01-29-2003, 11:29 PM
Define "true" saber combat.

Jolts
01-30-2003, 02:12 AM
I would rather have the original pc version of obi wan, not the edited down crap xbox version. I remember it was pretty much done, only mp sounded like it needed more work.
Just update the models and textures

Vagabond
01-30-2003, 08:08 AM
Jolts, from what I understand, the so-called "glyph" system, in Obi-Wan for the PC, wasn't very practical. The user had to pause while the drew their little picture, essentially rendering them helpless while in the "artistic" phase of combat. And then one considers the justification for forcing someone to indicate a combat move with a more complex, time-consuming "glyph" drawing, rather than just pressing a keyboard key. I'm much happier with Jedi Outcast, than I would have been with Obi-Wan on the PC.

JDKnite188
01-30-2003, 10:44 AM
Jedi Knight had great SP. Mysteries of the Sith had great MP. The combination would be perfect for JK2 Expansion/JKIII. Just some things to change in MP and SP:

SP
1. Better story definitely with some creativity
2. Less Imperial involvement in story
3. No common Star Wars locales
4. More NPCs, more NPC interaction
5. Much more fast paced gameplay
6. Creative weapons, more of them too
7. Saber system where the majority of attacks are parried but a slash that hits a contender will kill
8. Balanced force powers where there is a TRUE EQUAL to every light and dark side force power

MP
1. Class system
2. Less game types, more invested effort in popular gametypes like FFA, Duel, CTF, Team FFA, and even an Objective based mode
or Kill the Fool with the Ysalarmi (don't know spelling)
3. MORE CTF MAPS
4. Less spam attacks. Forget the n00bs and pave way for the 1337 players

More later . . . can't think of much more.

Toonces
01-30-2003, 01:04 PM
For me it really depends on where they take the series. I'd really like to see a story that takes place around the new trilogy time period. As for a main charecter, I would either make up a Jedi we've never seen or heard of, or pick one of the established "minor" Jedi and give them a go with an origional story.

Multiplayer is always important to me, and I'd really enjoy to see some brand new game modes. Keep all the current JO game modes in the game, but add a Class Based mode (Jedi vs. Bounty Hunter) as well as a true Team Based multiplayer mode simmilar to the Saga game type that was discovered hidden in the MP code.

Oh, lastly, and most importantly, some more useful Dev tools :D

recombinant
01-30-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Emon
It certantly could be a sequel, it might be an expansion, or it could be another Star Wars game not related to the DF saga at all. All we know is that the media interperted it as a sequel.

If you listen to the conference call, they refer to it as "the sequel to Star Wars: Jedi Outcast," which is a quote from the discussion - not an interpretation.

So it's safe to say it's an expansion pack, or possibly a legitimate successor to JK2:JO, but I seriously doubt it...

Locke101
01-30-2003, 02:56 PM
OK well, for those of you who are saying its not possible for a game to be developed in a year or so. Well then your saying JK2 was not possible. Because JK2 took about a year and a few months to develope so anything is possible.

Personally, i think Lucasarts should reclaim the JEdi Knight series. Dark Forces 2 had a good engine, if Lucasarts were to just make a similar game engine with another game company, they could have a hit. Becuase JK2 had the lamest story i have ever played for a Star Wars game. When i first got it, it was soo awesome. But now when i look back i realize that the story was really bad. Furthermore, enough of kyle. Have kyle train an apprentice or something and play as the apprentice. Kyle is getting OLD. He is already like 40 or 50 years old in JK2. We need someone new and exciting.

Continuing....If lucasarts doesnt want to take the time and effort to create their own engine, at least choose a newer better engine then the current Quake 3 that JK2 uses. I would perfer to have the game pushed back till like 2004 and have it run on the Doom III engine or even the UT2k3 engine. UT2k3 engie is good because it supports BIG maps, unlike QUake 3 and most likly the Doom III engine. Plus with a little bit of tweaking, I am sure they could get the Ut2k3 engine to be even more powerfull then it was used originally, for example look at jk2. Raven modified a good portion of the code and improved the quality of the engine considerably. Anyways, I'm done! :)

\:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

razorace
01-30-2003, 05:38 PM
I think it took Raven 18 months with the Q3 engine (which Raven had a LOT of experience with). Expecting them to be able to switch to a unfamilar engine AND make new content in a little over a year is pushing it. Heck, if you check the JK2 code, you can tell that JK2 was rush job. :)

Jolts
01-30-2003, 06:08 PM
vag: true, but if they just removed the gylph system, stuck in jo's, that combined with its city sized levels, zoning of levels for halflife/halo type loading and ragdoll physics could be fun.

razor's right, jo was a sloppy glued together game.

JDKnite188
01-30-2003, 07:06 PM
Is it just me or do I see a coincidence in gaming engines in the public scene. JK2 was built on the Quake III engine. There is also the current alpha of the Doom III engine. The latest comp-slaving Unreal Tournament installment was released in 2003. The next Jedi Knight game will be the 3rd installment in the JK series. Is it just me or do I see a lot of threes?

I think that with all the "3"s in the news, LEC should run and bulid a 1337 JKIII Engine. Now the real Star Wars people are in control and can cater the game's features to what a worthy Star Wars FPS should be. What J3di Knight was . . . .

Toonces
01-30-2003, 08:03 PM
I don't even know how to code and I can tell it was a huge rush job, especially on the multiplayer aspects.

If it's really going to be a completely new game I'd really like to see what could be done with the UT2k3 engine. If they are going to go the custom engine route it's going to take alot more time

Locke101
01-30-2003, 09:29 PM
yeah but i would rather have a game take 2 years and have a good engine and gameplay with a kick ass single player story line. Then a 1 year to 1 1/2 year made game that was rushed and has a cheesy single player story IE: JK2

Jolts
01-30-2003, 10:21 PM
the reality is your going to get the same old rush job q3 engine game JO was. I hope next time they keep sp and mp seperated like unreal.

All I expect from raven is another 20 levels of nonsense puzzles, missaligned textures, bad ai, crappy sound, weak cutscenes, bad facial animation, dirty mocaps, and 2 year old gameplay with 1 or 2 new gimiks that fool the 12 year olds. Possibly some shiny water.

ryudom
01-30-2003, 10:27 PM
LEC should run and bulid a 1337 JKIII Engine

thats what i've been saying! a 1337 JKIII engine would rock!! hmmm they should just tweak the jk1 engine hehe, i think i'd rather then do that then build upon the JK2 engine. JK1 engine felt so much stronger, the jk2 one feels kinda week, i don't really know what i'm talking about, that sjust the feeling i get.

BrettMan
01-30-2003, 11:02 PM
There are 2 things that I don't really want to see. I don;t want to see the Quake 3 engine again. There are just too many games using it. JK3 should be origional. And I don't think the Empire should be a main factor. I would love to see enimies other than Imperials, gangsters and droids. Thats all there is in the last DF games (with the exception of a few animal enimies like those annoying flying bug things in the Valley of the Jedi).

I haven't read anything from the expanded universe though. What other kinds of enimies could there be?

TheJackal
01-30-2003, 11:25 PM
Why would a possible expansiion pack to a game use a completly new engine? Please answear me that.


as for that "advanced JK1 engine" thats impossible. The rendering technique in that engine was clever. But by today's standard it would be impossible to make it look as beautiful as say UT2003 or Doom3 and etc. The way that engine worked is cool. BIG HUGE MAPS with allmost no lag. However, if you tried tweaking it furthey i think it would just destroy the engine. It's been used to its maximum potential. Let it die off.

as for jk2 using Q3 engine. I dont care. Lots of great games use it. Medal Of Honor: Allied Assault (and its expansion pack Spreadhead) and Return to Castle Wolfenstein


Building an engine would take a LOT of time. If they made a new engine and it is for a JediKnight style game, then it would be a waste of money and time for LEC and Raven to create this new engine now. They COULD start creating a new engine, but not for this game in my opinion: For a newer, better, project.

Jolts
01-31-2003, 01:12 AM
if lec was making it an inhouse project I'm sure they would work on modifying the obi wan engine.

Toonces
01-31-2003, 01:37 AM
Well, most of my issues with the Q3 engine, or Ravens implimentation of it has alot to do with the absolutely atrocious lighting. It completely washed out all of the colors, and ruined alot of the visual splender that the game should have had. (not to even mention how badly it fudged up all the nice textures on my models :()

If it's just an expansion then it'll be on the Q3 engine, but if it's a completely new title then I'd really like to see it on another established engine like the UT2k3 engine, or perhaps even the Doom III engine (yes, D3 runs like crap on lower end systems, but technology progresses, and the game is still a ways off) Crafting a new engine from scratch takes an incredibly long time, and IMO isn't really nessessary since the Dark Forces series, if done correctly, could easily attain the same "feel" with an established engine. I'm not really familiar enough with what LA did with Obi Wan so I can't really comment on that.

JO was/is still an incredibly fun game, dispite it's shortcomings. I just hope that the next version can raise the bar further

Locke101
01-31-2003, 03:13 PM
As much as I would like there to be an expansion to JO i would pefer a brand new game using a new engine. Especially with all this talk i really feel that Lucasarts should work HARD on the next JK. I really liked Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight single player. It was soo great, with the huge levels and the civilians, for example at Barons Hed. :) So i would go with the UT2k3 engine or the doom III engine like its was said before. Either way, if the next installment of jk to be in competition with newer games, as in graphically, then it either needs to use a newer engine or Lucasarts should develop its own to make it "feel" more like the previous DF games before JK2.

Spider AL
01-31-2003, 03:31 PM
If it's just an expansion then of course it'll use the Q3 engine. If it's Jk3, a new game in other words, it should use the best engine on the market, whatever that might turn out to be.

Simple.

Originally posted by BrettMan:
I haven't read anything from the expanded universe though. What other kinds of enimies could there be?

The authors of the EU make up a new enemy every five seconds, it's all as feeble and contrived as the Tarrasque from Dungeons & Dragons.

JDKnite188
01-31-2003, 05:44 PM
In making a possible JKIII engine, couldn't it just be a heavily upgraded JK engine? Quake looked like crap, but how did it eventually evolve into its Q3 component?

Sapaca
01-31-2003, 06:18 PM
If it's gonna be a sequal use the U2K3 engine or the Unreal 2 engine (Don't know the diff. though.) But if it's a whole new thing, re-do the Obi-Wan game. I don't know how disappointed I was. Way back when, I checked the Obi-Wan site like everyday, (Remember the color scheme was red?) (Remember the ad in the LEC PRINTED catalogue). Anyway then they said they weren't gonna make it for the p.c. but for "third generation game consoles". AGHHH!!! I was so depressed. (I wish I still had the screenshots.

**END OF LINE**

:cool:

ryudom
01-31-2003, 11:52 PM
as for that "advanced JK1 engine" thats impossible. The rendering technique in that engine was clever. But by today's standard it would be impossible to make it look as beautiful as say UT2003 or Doom3 and etc. The way that engine worked is cool. BIG HUGE MAPS with allmost no lag. However, if you tried tweaking it furthey i think it would just destroy the engine. It's been used to its maximum potential. Let it die off.

i'm saying, even without major grahics change, i'd still rather a new game on the jK engine then the q3 one. i'm not saying this is gonna happen, but thats just how much i liked the JK engine

Spider AL
02-01-2003, 12:01 AM
JK's was a nice little engine. Underrated, and quite easy to work with by oh, 1999. I wonder why it wasn't even more successful...

Jolts
02-01-2003, 02:17 AM
sapaca here's some old previews and an interview of obi wan

http://www.cdmag.com/articles/027/181/obiwan_preview.html#shot5

http://www.cdmag.com/articles/029/048/obiwan_interview.html

http://www.actiontrip.com/previews/starwarsepisode1obiwan.phtml

its kinda fun to read the interview, as old as this game is the previews make it sound more advanced than jo was.

Locke101
02-01-2003, 01:19 PM
stilll a JK3 would be better on a new engine.. I never really played obi wan so i cant comment on its engine. Can someone enlighten me on the engine?

ryudom
02-01-2003, 01:56 PM
i heard it wasn't that great

Sapaca
02-01-2003, 10:50 PM
Jolts thanks! I really want on Obi-Wan game.

txa1265
02-03-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Sapaca
Jolts thanks! I really want on Obi-Wan game.

I have not played ObiWan for XBox (and refuse to buy a console for our house at this point ...) but I remember well the pain that cancellation caused. My wife had it pre-ordered through Amazon for a Christmas present ...

Anyway, ObiWan was reviewed as ~60% or so whereas Jedi Outcast was reviewed at ~90%. Typical headlines for ObiWan reviews were 'the force is weak', for JKII 'the force is strong'.

So ... while JKII could have been better, it is still a pretty great game ...

Mike

Emon
02-03-2003, 10:46 PM
If Raven developes this expansion or sequel, if it even exists, I garuntee that it will be on an id engine. Raven has never made a game not based on a Quake engine.

Emon
02-03-2003, 10:48 PM
Actually, that's not entirely true. Raven is ancient, they made stuff for the Amiga, which is obviously not Quake powered. But anything modern has been on Quake.

Datheus
02-04-2003, 01:07 AM
If you ask me... No matter what they do, it'll be a let down... LEC seems to have a history of building hype and then not living up to the means...

I love the UT2k3 engine, especially the open nature of the engine (I'm impatiently awaiting the beta release of Unreal Tournament 2003: Troopers (http://ut2003troopers.co.uk/) Which is a Star Wars based mod for UT2K3... I'm also waiting on DragonBallU (http://www.dragonballu.com/) which is a DBZ mod for UT2K3...

But I have a feeling that if LEC and their developing lackies got a hold of the engine, they'd slaughter the potential...

I'd love to see JK3 hit the engine. Although, I don't want it on the Doom III engine because I don't know if I could run it on my computer :p

Now, I'd probably buy the game. I'm sure whatever they have planned for the future will be "ok", but it won't be great. They've got "ok" games, they've got innovative games... But I'm still waiting to play a game where the gameplay is more then good, it's GREAT. I'm waiting to play LEC game where the storyline is GREAT. LEC seems to always lack in that department...

Onto what I'd like to see:

Complicated dismemberment. It seems to me like dismemberment was something thrown together at the last minute. If MP had dismemberment like SP, that'd be even better, but the dismemberment in MP is kinda crappy... They're missing some key ones too, if you bring your saber straight down through the top of them, they'd split in half, their arm wouldn't fall off... Nor would their leg, which is so common when you DFA.

To me, the saber control is perfect. Perfect in the sence that you can't really make it much more detailed without making it too complicated to play. The system is just too buggy. They need to fix the tracing and such... I was standing a good 5 ft from a guy, neither of us lagging, and my saber was sparking like mad as if I was touching something...

And finally, a slightly more destructive/interactive environment... When you slash a wall with your saber and it leaves a mark, then you slash a breakable wall and the thing EXPLODES IN A LARGE FIREBALL... well, it just doesn't make sense...

-edit- And oh, "hand to hand" combat... The kicking in this game is kinda weak... I'd like to see it developed more... It'd be pretty cool to just whap someone on the head with your hilt in the middle of a duel.

AJL
02-04-2003, 06:43 AM
Changes in next JK game or expancion....

1. Guns (Blasters) should be WAY more powerfull... their bolts
should fly way faster and to head just one and to torso one or
two hits should be enough... And i think they could make them
look more like in movies...

And those weapon shouldn't like they are in JK2 always very
inaccurate... but they should have some recoil and accurasy
when moving should be low...

------ ----- ---- --- -- -

2. Sabers should also be way more powerfull (and idle saber
should make as much damage as it makes during attack...)

And different kind of attacks and attacks styles shouldn't make
any "direct" differense in the damage... (if you slash or push or
drop or... somehow make it go through of some part of some
guys body it should always cut it in a blink...)

Different kind of attacks and attacks styles should only affect
to the ability to block and break through of opponents defences

And I am SURE they could EASILY make those saber look
more like in movies

------ ----- ---- --- -- -

3. Force powers should be powerfull but not too effective at
least not against other force users... (force have strong
influence in weak minded... not to every guy...)

And there should be lots of force powers (and/or they should
work differently in different situations...) but they should all be
variations of couple basic powers...
>>> Telekinesis = ( push, pull, jump, grip, ... )
>>> Tele coercing/Telepathy = ( all that mindtrick stuff, seing, ... )
>>> Electrical stuff = ( speed, jump, fast reflexes, pain tolerance, ... lightning...)

------ ----- ---- --- -- -

4. Level design would be better if the thing which takes most
of the time is not this:

You jump from place A or place B and from there to place C
and................. and from there to place X and from there to
Y and... and if you... (like you usually do) jump a little bit
past that place and you fall to your death then you
start again from place A...

And those maps could also have some places where those
stormtroopers use their spare time and where they sleep
and where... not just endless corridors and reactors and
rooms which have no use but which are filled with boxes
which doesn't even fit through doors...

(I mean those level complexes could be bit more realistic...)

And i think its stupid that those stormtroopers just stand in
those closed rooms all day long waiting if some rebel guy
someday happens to walk in....

------ ----- ---- --- -- -

5. Story... i think they should let force be just mysterious force
not some stuff you inject in to your self using some freak device
or what you can get from some jedi graveyard or some micro
organism in your blood....

Doctor Shaft
02-04-2003, 04:23 PM
I feel they definitely need to change the feel of the game for the next game.

Ever since the addition of jedi powers after Dark Forces, I think that feel of the games have really been the same. You can use both guns and a lightsaber. You can pick up a multitude of weapons without any worries, etc. This is all fine and good in my book... I bought all the games.

However, at this point, I think JK3 should something a little more 'counterstrike' in terms of direction. Don't get me wrong! I don't want Counterstarwars... I'm not a big fan of what Counterstrike has become, nor do I wish to debate its worth. But it would be interesting if the next Jedi Knight had a different feel, where things were more.... tangible? Moving objects with the force, guns being actual physical objects instead of just attack modes, i.e. have a weight, take up space in your hands, etc. And while we never have seen stormtroopers having to reload stormtrooper rifles in the movie, etc., I'd still like it if the game had stuff like that going on.

Of course, that's me saying I'd like a game where things are slowed down, it's no longer a really fast paced, carry 50 tank guns of different shapes and sizes, pull out a lightsaber when it feels good... and people like that kind of game. I'd want something where I'm runnig around with my st rifle, I kill some people, I see a door, realize I have to blow it apart, so I drop the rifle and pick up the rocket launcher or whatever your imagination desires. I can carry my bryar around all the time, but it gets dangerous carrying multiple weapons in terms of my speed and physical ability, noise, etc.

I didn't even bother with the JO single player game. After playing Dark Forces, which simply had the best single player despite its age, then Jedi Knight and MotS, which also had excellent single player action.... it was just getting old. Different story, same progression, same kind of game, just better graphics, etc. I just played multiplayer because I knew it would be better than the older engines in terms of performance.

At this point, I'm kind of tiring of the way Jedi Knight has been produced. When Dark Force came out, I really felt like I was part of a dangerous enviroment. I could jump, I could run, and I had various guns. I didn't mind that I carried so many weapons at the time, it was just great to infiltrate all of these gigantic imperial facilities, lay detonators in the power generator, fly out on the Moldy Crow and watch yet another facility get nuked. That was great.

Jedi Knight changed the game yet again, only this time I was even more powerful than before. I could use the force, wield a lightsaber AND use tons of weapons all at high speeds. Again, I didn't mind, this was great, first of its kind so to speak. MotS came, now we had the ability to all the force powers; I liked that too. AGain, didn't mind the neck break speeds, 55 tank guns, and force powers to boot.

Now, as time has gone by, I play numerous half life mods, get into really slow stradegy games like Starfleet Command, etc., and I'm just worn out on the Jedi Knight genre. JO had changes, but they weren't significant changes. We got some acrobatics, saber combat was enhanced, and a few new force powers were introduced... all good, but the basic way of playing the game remained much the same, or at least it seemed that way.

This is what I'd like to see in the next installment, but chances are this next installment will be an expansion pack and also retain much of the old formula:

NEVER REMOVE KYLE KATARN FROM DARK FORCES/JEDI KNIGHT/JEDI OUTCAST/WHATEVER STAR WARS FPS THAT EVER GETS CREATED. It doesn't matter how old he is, Kyle Katarn IS Jedi Knight, etc. Remove him and it isn't Dark Forces anymore, or any of the subsequent spin offs.

It would be nice if the game had more of a 'physical' aspect to the game. In other words, Kyle doesn't carry around 50 blaster weapons at the same time. Why not? Quite frankly I tire of it; it bores me that I have a storm trooper rifle AND thirty rocket launchers and thermal dets, and yet seem to be unhindered in terms of movement, ability, etc. Heck, I can even switch weapons effortlessly. that was cool three years ago, but for the sake of being different, I'd prefer that we keep the 50 guns motif, but require that the player be conservative about how he goes about carrying around weapons.

Weapon speeds should be changed. Again, this is going into that kind of 'half life' style game (that's the best way i have of putting it). In other words, laser fire is much quicker, dodging fire is a more serious affair, etc. More laser weapons, less 'balls of fire and rockets of mass destruction' type things.

In terms of explosives, I would also like them to be taken... more seriously? In the past, explosives have been conveniently just big enough to take out multiple enemies, but also just small enough to prevent harm to the user in many situations. It's not 'easy' persay to destroy people with this weaponry, but for the sake of me relying on some good aim and not being able to depend on just utterly vaporizing my opponent, i think the 'perfect diameter' explosives should be ditched. If I throw a thermal detonator, I need to get out of town. Or if I fire a rocket, it should be a very dangerous situation. However, in a multiplayer setting, that may not be feasible, as we'd get many young bucks running around suiciding themselves but taking 50 other people with him. Solution? Get rid of those "guns that shoot at least 40 explosives" from the game. Unfortunately for me, a majority of this community wouldn't be able to live with that.

Lightsaber combat was pretty good for what it was in JO. I was impressed. Of course, the damage indexes for the weapon have been severely tweaked, and while I am always in favor of near fatal lightsabers, other are not. The stances thing was a good idea. Bringing them back into the game would be a good thing. More stances would be good too, but since it seems that development teams don't release games that have tons of stuff in them these days, that will also probably not happen. Regardless, I'd finally like to see just plain lethal lightsabers. Lethal guns, lethal sabers. It would probably be a harder game then, as gunners in my game would be deprived a multitude of ultra destructive explosives, and may have to use lightsabers themselves. And yet, I love guns and gunners, I like being a saberist, and I'd like it if someone could win very well using guns only. I just don't like how the games have decided to create this enviroment. Don't ask me how I would change it to make it fun for the gunning crowd and the saber crowd... i don't know.

Finally, I have always been a fan of the idea of having TONS of force powers. Some may argue that JK and JO have had tons of force powers already. Regardless, while I have no 'good' ideas as to how the force should work in a game, I would appreciate it if a 'JO2/JK3' would have a force system that broke away from the "I have this power, you got that power". No sense in me going into detail, I've already wasted enough of my breath at this point.

All in all, I will continue to support Kyle Katarn and his adventures that SHOULD NEVER EVER END, EVEN IF HE IS 150 YEARS OLD, AND ALL OF HIS FRIENDS ARE DEAD. However, hearing that an expansion pack on the way doesn't exactly excite me right now. JO was fun for me only for a little while. I got the kind of gameplay I wanted from Promod, but then again, not exactly. However, even with those game tweaks, the game itself is still kind of same ole same ole for me. I don't want an fps that feels like some rpg, but I guess I do want something more immersive. I feel that Half Life was one of the best single player games ever made. If JK3 had something as continuous and immersive as that, I'd buy it in a heart beat, but I'd also want to get rid of the "carry every weapon known to man easily". If Dark Force was able to change a little bit, I feel JK3 should change a little bit as well. I know lots of you will reply, "It's not JK3 without the hyper speed, bunny hopping, and rocket spraying". At this point, you may be right, but I don't exactly care. I'm ready and willing to watch JK3 evolve into something else. Until then... meh, JK is fun, but not nearly as exhilirating as it used to be.

ryudom
02-04-2003, 07:59 PM
agreed

WD_ToRMeNt
02-04-2003, 09:02 PM
Wow, it's been a while since I've posted. Some of you old timers might remember me.

Anyways, I was right. Raven had no clue what made JK1 good, they made a crappy game. Yeah, it was ok untill the first patch came out but competative JK2 didn't last long after the "patch". The SP wasn't anything special either.

I'm stilled POed at Raven/LEC for ruining JK2. I rented a server (anyone rememer the WD CTF/JK2++ server?) but I barely got a month of play out of it before JK2 whent to hell and all the real gamers quit.

If Raven learns from their mistakes and makes a decent JK3/JK2x (as in more like JK1) then maybe i'll regain a shredd of respect for them, but I don't see that as likely. I dont think i'll be spending money on any expansions/sequals that come out as long as Raven is involved.

Regardless, I can sit back an say I told you so.

Spider AL
02-04-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt:

Anyways, I was right. Raven had no clue what made JK1 good, they made a crappy game. Yeah, it was ok untill the first patch came out but competative JK2 didn't last long after the "patch". The SP wasn't anything special either.
Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt:

If Raven learns from their mistakes and makes a decent JK3/JK2x (as in more like JK1) then maybe i'll regain a shredd of respect for them
Actually, SP was (and is) superb, pre-patch MP was truly classic, and honestly, I doubt your respect is very high on Raven's list of "things to obtain."

Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt:

Regardless, I can sit back an say I told you so
But why would you want or need to? :rolleyes: One would think we'd gotten past the bitter Raven-bashing stage by now.

From Vagabond: Okay, Spider AL, I've gotten onto WD_ToRMeNt for calling people names in the past. The same standard applies to you. Please refrain from further name-calling. Thank you.

Zodiac
02-05-2003, 05:03 AM
Make MP good again in JKO2. Make it JK3. but make it better. screw the q3 engine. get ur own. oldschool fury is what we need.

txa1265
02-05-2003, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Actually, SP was (and is) superb, pre-patch MP was truly classic, and honestly, I doubt your respect is very high on Raven's list of "things to obtain."


But why would you want or need to? :rolleyes: One would think we'd gotten past the bitter Raven-bashing stage by now.

Very, very, very well said.

The SP game - while not flawless - was at or near the top of just about every game journal/site/whatever list for the year - and it was quite a year for FPS gaming (MoHAA, NOLF2, SoF2, etc).

The MP game, as I've said elsewhere, is not my bag, but I agree with your take. By attempting to further 'balance gameplay', Raven got themselves backed into that impossible 'please some anger others', and at the same time had the constant howl (starting ~March 29th IIRC) of 'JKII is dying/dead'.

If MP was ruined (which I don't really believe), we have no one to thank but ourselves. Likewise, if JKII is 'dead' (again I don't believe that), don't look at Raven, look around you at all of the people who want it their way now ... or else.

Mike

Luc Solar
02-05-2003, 11:07 AM
Really?! :confused:

I though SP was horrible.

There were some really cool moments, like meeting the first reborns....but otherwise: bleah. :(

I hated the way the managed to fill the game with idiotic puzzles solely for the sake of Puzzles.

I want to use my brains.

I don't want to shoot aimlessly at everything hoping to hit some random little box that explodes and lets me force-push a little switch that pops up behind the hole that the explosion made in the wall and then run to the other side of the map, pull another box, use my light amplification goggles to scare a little squirrel that panics and runs through the ventilation system and causes a blackout which causes the guard to open the secret hatch number 174 allowing me to slip by the electric fence and enter the password in the mainframe which puts the ion cannons online and firing randomly hitting a speeder which crashes into the side of the warehouse an VOILA --> I have access to the next level! Yay! I'm so smart! :rolleyes:

Didn't like Desann. Didn't like Force Crystals and all that crap. Don't like "tricks" in general. The end boss in JK1 (forgot his name....the blind guy.) was really cool, but when the final fight began, what do I get --> A DAMN PUZZLE. What's with all the crappy god-mode-beams etc? I want fair fights, not bs. Make 'em tough. Give them speed strenght and loads of hp, but quit using stupid invulnerabilities and/or godly powers.

A good example is the ladder-fight (or was it just a level?) where you end up agaionst Tavion in the end. She can't be killed with a saber no matter how hard you try. Same with Vader in ladder I. Retarded, lame TRICKS give you victory. WTF is that? :mad:

[/rant]

Spider AL
02-05-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar:

I hated the way the managed to fill the game with idiotic puzzles solely for the sake of Puzzles. I want to use my brains. I don't want to shoot aimlessly at everything hoping to hit some random little box that explodes
Umm... Okay. I'm not sure what exactly you disliked about the puzzles then, it can't be that they were too difficult, because you say you WANT to use your brain... Too fiddly maybe? Only Reelo's garbage-plant front was fiddly, IMO. As for the others, they whipped by pretty quick. It all played in a remarkably fluid fashion, and I never felt that the puzzles snapped one out of the flow, per-se.

Originally posted by Luc Solar:

Didn't like Desann. Didn't like Force Crystals and all that crap. Don't like "tricks" in general. The end boss in JK1 (forgot his name....the blind guy.) was really cool, but when the final fight began, what do I get --> A DAMN PUZZLE. What's with all the crappy god-mode-beams etc?
Umm... So you're saying you didn't like the SP in JK1 either? The final fight with Jerec was at least as much of a puzzler as the fight with Desann. Not to mention the fact that you can kill Desann without the god-beam, or the pillars. You can kill him any which way you like.

So if you don't like the mood of JK1 SP or JK2 SP, well, you're entitled to your opinion, but shedloads of people disagreed with you, including almost all magazine reviewers in the known universe. :D

Originally posted by Luc Solar:

A good example is the ladder-fight (or was it just a level?) where you end up agaionst Tavion in the end. She can't be killed with a saber no matter how hard you try. Same with Vader in ladder I. Retarded, lame TRICKS give you victory. WTF is that?
Um, you must be talking about some addon level other than the original Ladder, coz Vader wasn't in that to my knowledge, and all the bosses were killable.

ryudom
02-05-2003, 02:07 PM
heres my take on singleplay

first, it the movement, guns, and saber controls feel alot more sloppy then multiplayer. not good heh

second, story wasn't that great. JK1 was way better. Didn't seem like there was as much atmosphere in this game. Not even close.

third, level design seemed not half as good as JK1. JK1 had cool cool levels, like narshada and all of them really. another thing is in JK1 you could get to all the places in the map were bad guys were, you can't do this in JK2 methinks, and the secrets were pointless. I also liked the loading and start up screens better in JK1 heh.

and the bosses were kinda rediculous, galak was cool, but there wasn't enough bosses, and the ones they did ahve weren't all that great.

the rest was good heh

Doctor Shaft
02-05-2003, 03:10 PM
Well, if they do make an expansion, hopefully they concentrate heavily on multiplayer. Of course, single player lovers may not like that so much, but come on, how good of a story do you think they'd come up with in an expansion? Mysteries of the Sith was surprisingly good, but the multiplayer expansions weren't exactly great. You had freedom in force setups, and "classes" but a lot of the new features had balance problems. A storm trooper rifle being turned into a sniper rifle, while cool in practice, is actually quite easy to use. Don't even get me started on the carbonite gun. Once again, the guy who wanted the lightsaber was kind of miffed. whatever, MotS was still fun.

But seriously, after doing so many stories with Kyle, if an expansion were to come within this year or so, I'd prefer that it concentrated much more on game play dynamics. Bring the game back to it's multiplayer origins, as in the game mechanics before 1.03, and then improve upon it, as in add more things, from there. Having them make another single player story with a sub par multiplayer system isn't the way to go.

Jolts
02-05-2003, 03:32 PM
I also think sp was complete crap. I could go off for pages on why, but that would be lame and boring. I think they should do what they did with unreal, keep sp and mp seperate games. As far as the expansion, raven is much better at making mp games vs sp games and they should stick to mp only for it.

Luc Solar
02-05-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Umm... Okay. I'm not sure what exactly you disliked about the puzzles then, it can't be that they were too difficult, because you say you WANT to use your brain... Too fiddly maybe? Only Reelo's garbage-plant front was fiddly, IMO. As for the others, they whipped by pretty quick. It all played in a remarkably fluid fashion, and I never felt that the puzzles snapped one out of the flow, per-se.

The puzzles where there solely because they wanted puzzles. It seems silly that "the fate of the universe" depends on something totally irrational like a pushing some box into...oh well, you already know the story about the squirrel in panic.

I've seen good puzzles. The JO puzzles, imho, werent' good or too hard. They were just dumb.

Umm... So you're saying you didn't like the SP in JK1 either? The final fight with Jerec was at least as much of a puzzler as the fight with Desann. Not to mention the fact that you can kill Desann without the god-beam, or the pillars.

Since I was ranting earlier; Let me rephrase:

I liked both games *BUT* JO had a lot of very annoying things in it. I disliked the puzzles, the plot could (should) have been better and...oh; give me real cutscenes for christ sakes, not some crap made with the game engine! :swear:

I didn't know about the pillars or the beam until I visited these forums. Desann died pretty quickly. :)

What I'm saying is: I don't want the Final Fight to be a lame puzzle along the lines "lure him into the Amazing Beam of Death 'cause he is suddenly invulnerable to all other kinds of damage.


Um, you must be talking about some addon level other than the original Ladder, coz Vader wasn't in that to my knowledge, and all the bosses were killable.

The Tavion-fight was in a addon level. Vader was in Ladder II or Ladder I.

Doctor Shaft
02-05-2003, 07:51 PM
An expansion pack that concentrates on multiplayer is the best way of doing things.

I would prefer that they cool the jets on any stories about Kyle Katarn for awhile. When a JO2/JK3 arrives, the story should take Kyle back to his roots in terms of story line.

I always did enjoy the little Imperial Remnant thing, however it doesn't make much sense anymore. It seems every imperial remnant is controlled by some anonymous dark jedi now.

I liked Mysteries of the Sith because you would go through at least 17 or 18 long levels before you had any jedi against jedi combat. I appreciated the fact that I had to be Mara Jade or Kyle and just destroy people with the Force and a lightsaber. I actually enjoyed the game more when I played it using a mod called Saber Battle X, merely because it had a whole slew of new saber animations, so I could truly kick some arse as a jedi. Mysteries of the Sith had it right though. You went through all kinds of different terrains, and had to use your jedi training to win, or you could just blast everyone to death, but I preferred doing it the other way.

Spider AL
02-05-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar:
I've seen good puzzles. The JO puzzles, imho, werent' good or too hard. They were just dumb.
Well, the puzzles have been pretty much the same since DF. What game contained the puzzles you like?

Originally posted by Luc Solar:
give me real cutscenes for christ sakes, not some crap made with the game engine!
You want b-movie/soap actors in cheap costumes? Live FMV cutscenes are plagued with bad actors. Besides, using the game-engine to make cutscenes keeps you in the game-world. :)

Originally posted by Luc Solar:
What I'm saying is: I don't want the Final Fight to be a lame puzzle along the lines "lure him into the Amazing Beam of Death 'cause he is suddenly invulnerable to all other kinds of damage.
Uh?.. Beam of death? There's a beam of death in the Desann fight? The only beam I know of in the Desann fight was beneficial AND optional, and heck, I dunno what you mean by invulnerability, Desann wasn't invulnerable to anything when I fought him... Hardly a puzzle...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luc Solar:
The Tavion-fight was in a addon level. Vader was in Ladder II or Ladder I.
Yer, that's what I said, he wasn't in the original Ladder, and in the original Ladder, all bosses were killable.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doctor Shaft:
I would prefer that they cool the jets on any stories about Kyle Katarn for awhile.

People are always saying "Kyle Katarn is tired, he's run out of stories and steam" etc. etc. But it's not about what character they use, it's about the skill of the writer. They should employ an actual, talented writer, school him in the canon of the games, and set him loose. Then maybe we'd get an imaginative, original storyline with good character development for Kyle.

Vagabond
02-05-2003, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
...I hated the way the managed to fill the game with idiotic puzzles solely for the sake of Puzzles.

I want to use my brains.

I don't want to shoot aimlessly at everything hoping to hit some random little box that explodes and lets me force-push a little switch that pops up behind the hole that the explosion made in the wall and then run to the other side of the map, pull another box, use my light amplification goggles to scare a little squirrel that panics and runs through the ventilation system and causes a blackout which causes the guard to open the secret hatch number 174 allowing me to slip by the electric fence and enter the password in the mainframe which puts the ion cannons online and firing randomly hitting a speeder which crashes into the side of the warehouse an VOILA --> I have access to the next level! Yay! I'm so smart! :rolleyes: ...


LOL!!! Man, that's freakin' hilarious. I agree - I dislike puzzles for the sake of puzzles as well. It's kind of hard to suspend your disbelief when you end up wondering about the absurd convergence of totally unreleated events required in order to reach the next area of the map. After a certain point, you end up thinking, "Okay, this is just silly", and it ends up feeling more like work than fun.

Luc Solar
02-06-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Spider AL
You want b-movie/soap actors in cheap costumes? Live FMV cutscenes are plagued with bad actors. Besides, using the game-engine to make cutscenes keeps you in the game-world. :)

I don't want bad actors. I just want something worth waiting for. A prize for completing a mission...sort of.
Something like the cutscenes in JK1. (Those made a huge difference for me.)
Seeing The "Real" Kyle and lightsabers and stuff was so cool. Game engine cutscenes simply don't 'do it' for me. :)

Uh?.. Beam of death? There's a beam of death in the Desann fight? The only beam I know of in the Desann fight was beneficial AND optional, and heck, I dunno what you mean by invulnerability, Desann wasn't invulnerable to anything when I fought him... Hardly a puzzle...

I was just ranting and trying to make a point. You'll only get confused if you take me literally when I'm doing that. ;)


....Then maybe we'd get an imaginative, original storyline with good character development for Kyle.

Yup. And please keep your hands off the Force. I don't want JK3 to be the hunt of the superchickendroid that's able to lay Eggs Of Ultimate ForcePower. :D

Spider AL
02-06-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar:

I don't want bad actors. I just want something worth waiting for. A prize for completing a mission...sort of. Something like the cutscenes in JK1. (Those made a huge difference for me.)
Seeing The "Real" Kyle and lightsabers and stuff was so cool. Game engine cutscenes simply don't 'do it' for me.
Ahh I see. For me, on the other hand, the JK cutscenes were a festival of pain, during which I sat in my nice leather computer chair, cringing desperately as the cheap soap actors in cheap latex makeup unworthy of the "Star Wars Christmas Special" pranced around butchering lines which didn't make any sense on paper anyway.

But hey, if you enjoyed them, more power to you.

Originally posted by Luc Solar:

I was just ranting and trying to make a point. You'll only get confused if you take me literally when I'm doing that
Aha! I knew you weren't making much sense... :p Whatever point you were trying to make, however, didn't apply to JO. :D No puzzles in the boss-fights there, d'you see!

Originally posted by Luc Solar:

Yup. And please keep your hands off the Force. I don't want JK3 to be the hunt of the superchickendroid that's able to lay Eggs Of Ultimate ForcePower.
Agreed. The last thing we need is more EU-esque Mondochlorian/Force-Crystal nonsense.

ryudom
02-06-2003, 04:16 PM
Yup. And please keep your hands off the Force. I don't want JK3 to be the hunt of the superchickendroid that's able to lay Eggs Of Ultimate ForcePower.

LOL thats gold, platinum even! :D

JDKnite188
02-06-2003, 09:54 PM
I just hope the clever obstacles in JKIII won't be considered puzzles. I felt like a little kid when I had to "find the right symbols" to activate the self-destruct system on Kejim.

That invulnerability beam in the chamber in which Kyle and Desann fight was pathetic. In the Valley of the Jedi in JK there was some orb thing in a column that revived Jerec's energy and health with the engraved power of the force. Desann wasn't even hard if you used speed + strong.

The mine bridge in Bespin streets was amusing though. One time I fought a reborn nearby when the mines weren't activated (I forget where the reborn came from). I jumped in a leap over the bridge (not full over it) and he followed me pacing on his way. I landed on the bridge for a second triggering the mines; he was standing beside a cute, little mine. I jump after a second watching this: Reborn says "Do you fear me?", explosion of all mines, reborn body goes flying off bridge .

/me likes

There is no doubt that JO was a thrill ride.

TheJackal
02-06-2003, 10:39 PM
Okay, i dont like bursing bubbles, BUT DROP THE OBI WAN ENGINE TALK!

Seriously it might sound high tech. trust me. i had a great fan site dedicated to it when it was announced (www.obiwan-network) and my site was the first to post screenshots of the game.

( http://web.archive.org/web/20001204163800/http://www.obiwan-network.com/ ) <-- images dont work but its there

anyways. the engine sounded high tech and a very good idea. however it was NOT practicle and the graphics were not very good. The game was CANNED for the PC because it lacked the possibility to be such a great game. it was only worthy to be a console game (no insult to consoles :p)



As for the SinglePlayer in JK2... i personnaly think it could of been better. It had its low points and high points. I think the acting was .... StarWars movie quality (aka terrible acting) and the story line lacked the depth and quality of other LEC classics (DarkForce 2: JediKnight, Grim Fandango, Monkey Island, etc). The atmosphere was totally lost. They were close, but not as amazing as running around in the AfterLife (Grim Fandango) or a creepy base like in Aliens and Predator. JK2 did not stir my imagination.

I also think MP was worst in JK2 than the first JediKnight. Simple because i personnally though it was more random swinging (the classical yellow constant spinning) and the over use of force powers (even throught ALL the patches, people over used EVERYTHING!). The community ruined the game, pure lack of sportsmanship (fair playing).


IN CONCLUSION: Raven and LEC better devellop the multiplayer aspect (mostly team based stuff) , and completly leave the singler player aspect. Kill Kyle off and create new exiting things. In fact, I'm starting to think they need to ditch StarWars games untill a huge technological advancements come along.






PS: ignore my terrible spelling :p

Spider AL
02-07-2003, 11:45 AM
TheJackal, exactly right about Obi-Wan. I have NO idea why people keep wheeling that one out... sigh.

Originally posted by TheJackal:
I also think MP was worst in JK2 than the first JediKnight. Simple because i personnally though it was more random swinging
Hmm, due to the peer-to-peer netcode of JK1 and its... unique handling of lag, online sabre duels consisted of one single move over and over as one player tried to predict where the other one would be in about half a second, and hit the air in that area hoping to connect. I kinda prefer JO in that respect... Somewhat less random, no?

Originally posted by TheJackal:
and the over use of force powers (even throught ALL the patches, people over used EVERYTHING!). The community ruined the game, pure lack of sportsmanship (fair playing).
The community DID ruin the game, but it was mainly people screaming about "fair play" that did it. If you cast your mind back, people at the time were screaming about the Flechette being too powerful, Drain being too powerful, Heal being too powerful, Strong stance being too powerful... so Raven nerfed them all in 1.03. That was what really ruined the game. I don't think spammers had that much of a hand in it, annoying as they are.


Originally posted by TheJackal:
IN CONCLUSION: Raven and LEC better devellop the multiplayer aspect (mostly team based stuff) , and completly leave the singler player aspect. Kill Kyle off and create new exiting things.
I don't think that would work, nor that they'd ever do it. More people buy Star Wars games for the single player experience than the MP, apparently. Those who want online competition nab the latest Quake/Unreal instead.

Luc Solar
02-07-2003, 12:21 PM
Didn't play much with force enabled during the 1.02 times so I don't know much about that BUT I do think heal was too strong.

The joke below was quite appropriate at the time.

http://www.tribalpharmacy.com/hubstuff/vaderobip.jpg

Try having 1 level in heal now! You'll spend half your force pool and gain...what? - 10 hit points? :D

Ummm...what was this thread about? :o

Spider AL
02-07-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar:
Didn't play much with force enabled during the 1.02 times so I don't know much about that BUT I do think heal was too strong.

Too strong? How strong is too strong? I never had any trouble dispatching heal-spammers, even in Duel. Who can say. It was no stronger than Drain was, so the two sides balanced out quite well. But now of course it's not worth having either of those powers.

graigsmith
02-07-2003, 07:43 PM
i wont buy it. i was sorely dissapointed with jediknight 2. the multiplayer was pretty good.. then they ruined it.

raven blows.

Zodiac
02-07-2003, 09:02 PM
I so much agree with Solar and WD_Torment.

Sooo much that I don't have to write much in this thread.

JediLoaf
02-13-2003, 02:14 AM
i nevrlayed it, but i heard some good things about the UT2003 engine...

StormHammer
02-14-2003, 08:31 PM
A lot of interesting ideas and points already raised, I see.

I think I agree with others about the short time span that seems to be involved here. Raven managed to produce Jedi Outcast so quickly because...a) they were intimately familiar with the engine they were going to use, b) they had produced a great 3rd person hack'n'slash with a decent plot in Heretic II, c) they can work fast. :)

If there is a sequel in the pipeline scheduled for release early next year, it would be silly to expect some other developer to come up with at least as good game mechanics as Raven, using a different engine...unless they had already been working on it for some time (like since the release of Jedi Outcast).

If a sequel (or even expansion) is being made, the logical choice would be to use Raven again, with the same engine, possibly tweaked even more. That way you ensure continuity, and perhaps have a little more time to focus on gameplay elements, rather than having to adapt the engine from scratch to meet your needs.

That seems more likely to me...

As for other engines...well, if Unreal 2 is anything to go by, the newest iteration of the Unreal tech can build big levels, but they just don't seem as big. There are also long load-times on older hardware like mine - even longer than Outcast's in SP, which I thought were long enough. Perhaps the whole problem with expanding vistas...is that they actually extend for a greater distance than we really appreciate, and they don't translate well enough in current game engines. Unreal II felt just like base after base stuck in the middle of a square piece of terrain, unfortunately. I think the trick is actually having lots of cramped spaces, and just catching glimpses of something that seems vast. Actually being in a vast space...you feel as if you're not moving very fast...yet you reach the edges of that vista too quickly. The levels that seemed larger...were actually those that restricted your area of vision. I think it's something to do with the brain actually filling in the blanks and assuming voids are vast open spaces.

The new DOOM tech seems even more restrictive and claustrophobic, although I think someone said it was capable of larger areas.

I'm getting to the point where I'm inclined to agree with others that a new engine should be built for any further Jedi Knight titles. An engine that can handle truly vast spaces, and be powerful enough to fill those areas with lots of detail. Or perhaps just an engine that can manage smooth and seamless (transparent) level transitions, like Dungeon Siege, without the hideous loading times.

Anyway, the thing to note about the new Unreal tech is that many of the developers using it are actually rewriting the render code and particle systems to match their particular needs. Although it's modular in format, it still needs a lot of work to achieve the right feel for your particular project.

I don't know the exact limitations of the new S.T.A.L.K.E.R. engine, but that would seem as good a candidate as any for developing a game requiring vast areas to explore - the fact that the game allows you to drive vehicles is good evidence of the scale of terrain involved. I imagine it's something similar to Operation Flashpoint, in that respect.

Looking at it from that perspective, if you simply had an engine like that, which maybe didn't render so many hundred thousand polygons per frame...but did a poly-bump trick like the new DOOM to actually fool you into thinking the scenery and models were higher definition than they actually were...maybe that's a way to improve visuals while retaining low enough poly counts to not seriously impact performance on lower end rigs.

Anyway, regardless of engine, I'd hope that any sequel or expansion pack in the pipeline would do for Jedi Outcast what MotS did for Jedi Knight. It should at least improve the game visually in some manner, offer a decent plot for SP, new locales, new ideas, new characters.

It becomes frustrating, in a way, that the great points you loved from previous games aren't simply carried through as standard features in sequels. Yet we see it more and more...where a developer is sometimes caught in a quandary about what the gaming audience actually enjoyed from Game 1, and sometimes completely miss the mark about what worked and what didn't that should be implemented in Game 2.

From my point of view, the real reference for a Star Wars game should be the movies themselves. The sweeping grandeur, the fast action and intense battles, and thriving communities populated with many and varied characters from a wide variety of alien races. The original Jedi Knight actually managed well to give a feel that you were walking through a city, due to the number of NPCs on screen at any given time...and not just bad guys.

I have to say that I think the original Jedi Knight and MoTS should still be used as the benchmark when producing any sequels. They did many things right, in terms of level design, interaction, morality, NPC populations and taking into account underwater exploration. I think where Jedi Outcast managed to excel was in the saber combat and visualisation.

Finally, I don't think any development these days should be conducted in isolation, i.e., not viewing what other games in the genre are trying to achieve. As a gamer, I look at new features in up-coming titles, and old features in past classics, and my expectation is that I will see the majority of those features implemented in the titles I am waiting for. I'm not simply talking about enhanced graphics...because for me the graphics are secondary to the actual gameplay. The gameplay has to come first...and it should try and build and expand on what has gone before, not simply trim this feature, or that feature, or attempt to compact and simplify only elements that were deemed to work from previous outings, while overlooking things that might actually have given greater enjoyment to the end gamer.

The bottom line is...don't just produce a game to cash in on past successes. Try and really push the envelope in terms of content and interaction. Look at games like Jedi Knight, Deus Ex, Half-Life, No One Lives Forever, Unreal, and Jedi Outcast, you'll find many great gameplay elements that worked, and worked well. None of those games were perfect...but they did some things extraordinarily well. A hybrid of the best elements from each of those games could make something truly exceptional.

Anyway...if it's a sequel, Kyle Katarn has to appear somewhere...but it doesn't have to mean the focus should be on him alone. The series needs new ideas and new characters if it is to remain successful, I think. I would actually probably argue these days for less cut scenes, particularly where dialogue is concerned. It would be better from my POV if you remained in-character, moving around freely, while you 'talk' to someone to get information. Where cut scenes do have a place is showing the wider picture...the actions of others...and external shots of ships, etc. Nevertheless, to be frank, when you look at the movie-like CGI footage of some console titles, and compare it to some in-engine cut-scenes on games developed for PC, the PC is often found lacking in sheer visual style. Unless you have an exceptional game engine, you can't make your characters perform or even approach dynamic action, and that is what is needed, I think.

I guess I've probably said enough.

Jolts
02-14-2003, 10:38 PM
raven was able to bust jo out so fast because a lot of the work was done already. They pulled a lot from sof2, starting with plants and tree's, then they used the same human models and modified them a little for jo. They also used some of the ai from sof2, ghoul2....lots of little time savers. Also noticed some animation sharing between the two games, like grenade throws, and shooting animations. I could careless as long as the gameplay is good.

As far as an engine they could use for a new jedi game, I would go for something like the halo 2 engine. It handles seemless transitions of levels, large outdoor areas, killer ai, nice graphics pretty much up there with doom3, has vehicle physics that work great for both land and air. All the things a great star wars game needs. I have no idea how well the netcode is for that engine, could be good, could be crap...we'll see when halo for pc comes out.

I would think it would be best to seperate single player jedi games from a jo type of mp game. I don't want to hear things like "well since its an sp/mp game we coudln't do this cool stuff in sp...or blah blah in mp..."

ryudom
02-15-2003, 01:51 AM
i don't wanna pay 100000 dollars to get sp and mp... one game would be better imo

Kuuki
02-16-2003, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
please, please, please don't let it be on the Quake 3 engine and not be developed by Raven.

YEAH! Use the Quake 2 Engine and have it all done by....


um....


...Squaresoft!! YES! :D

actually, a JK game dont in the way of a FF, wouldn't be too bad :)

StormHammer
02-20-2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Scarface2k2
actually, a JK game dont in the way of a FF, wouldn't be too bad :)

I'd prefer it done in the way of a...Deus Ex. :)

Ackehallgren
02-20-2003, 03:20 PM
hope Jedi outcast 2 is better then Jedi Outcast anyway

MilesTeg
02-21-2003, 10:30 AM
A Jedi Outcast 2 features I want:

- all vehicles should be controlable

- the player should be more involved in big battles (much more npcs, team missions etc.)
- no planet-to-planet teleports. More Space action (maybe some arcade minigames) / dialogue cutscenes

- a great, partly nonlinear plot and some optional missions/ the ability to choose the missions.

- stronger jedies but not that much like in JO.... (for me hordes of reborns etc. just donīt feel right in starwars). All Jedis should always be something special (like in JK1) and not one of the usual enemies!

- the last enemy should be evil humanlike... I donīt like lizards...
He/she should be much more fascinating! (hm... what about Thrawn?)

- more npc interaction / more neutral npcs!

- make the main character/game darker (but keep the jokes ;) )!

- keep the amount of action :D

SkinWalker
02-21-2003, 02:10 PM
I browsed through this thread and I have to say that everyone (just about) made some good observations about the current game. I have to agree with many of the points that most people raised about things like cut-scenes, force-powers, etc.

As far as cut-scenes, I have to strongly agree with Luc Solar... there should be a "prize" at the end of the SP game. A video clip along the lines of the Duality fan film would be awsome. These guys could do it, so I'm sure a big budget production company (even if it is producing a game) could do it.

For game play, I'd like to see a larger multi-player environment. Not necessarily an entire universe like the SW Galaxies thing, but definately more space to move about. I think that FFA_Bespin was fine for 5 players, but put 16 in there and it's too chaotic. Same with the Star Destroyer, Death Star, etc.

I'd also like to see the ability to blend in with Non-Player Characters..... and a penalty for killing Non-Player characters. That would make people more sure of their shots and allow for games like Bounty Hunter missions.

Anyway... my $.02

SkinWalker

Hekx
02-21-2003, 03:57 PM
Hopefully they'll use an newer engine which allows large scale maps with a good frame-rate. I doubt they'll use the UT2003 engine, but still it looks good. :)

Since there's been about 5 of these threads, I don't want to type out everything again.

Although the human-acted cutscenes sound good. I too also want to see more locations. Coruscant, Endor, Naboo etc, different locations.

Ackehallgren
02-21-2003, 04:04 PM
Reelo Baruk, Dessan, Reborn and those are cool, but i would like to see somewone that would actually be able to have the power over thugs all over the galaxy:

HUTTS!

Just like in mysteries with Kapa the hut, that was awesome!

Baldwin the jedi hutt (joking) finds the valley of the jedi :P

StormHammer
02-21-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by ackehallgren
Reelo Baruk, Dessan, Reborn and those are cool, but i would like to see somewone that would actually be able to have the power over thugs all over the galaxy:

HUTTS!

Just like in mysteries with Kapa the hut, that was awesome!

Baldwin the jedi hutt (joking) finds the valley of the jedi :P

Actually...when you sit down and think about it...it doesn't really make that much sense that Hutts have that kind of power. I mean, it only took a young woman with a length of chain to put a stop to Jabba. Physically, they don't even seem able to defend themselves from attack. You could argue that they have a lot of cold, hard cash and can buy the best protection...but they still have to survive long enough to make their mark and acquire the loot. It seems strange that they're so successful as a race...

As for game engine...they need something to fit the scale, not just something that looks pretty. The new Unreal tech can look really great...but it also has a greater performance hit on your hardware. I wouldn't mind at all if they traded some visual quality for better gameplay - and larger, more complex levels populated with more NPCs and/or enemies. And when it comes to the models of your opponents, does it really matter if it has 1500 or 6000 polygons? I think the polybump method seems to be the way to go...reducing the number of polygons, yet retaining high-res textures, and bump-mapping them (to varying degrees) to get the detail...

Ackehallgren
02-22-2003, 04:49 AM
of course, your right, but they do have the power to rule over thugs and body guards... I mean, how threatening was Reelo Baruk?

Hekx
02-22-2003, 11:09 AM
You could have a mission to talk to a Hutt, and he sets the bounty hunters out, then you eliminate the Hutt.

I think seeing more of the alien species would make the game more popular. After all Star Wars is packed with aliens. Plus it would leave more models already made, so more skins can be done, making it popular. ;)

Ackehallgren
02-22-2003, 11:11 AM
I would like to slash my lightsaber into an Ithorian (Hammerhead)
:D:D:D (or maybe a defensless little Jawa!)

Silent_Thunder
02-23-2003, 04:21 PM
It's been awhile since I've visited these forums... Not many people left that were here since before JO was released it would seem. I'm surprised my name is still active.

Anyways; I personally didn't find the multiplayer in JO to be anything all that special. I honestly wish they would focus most on single player for JK3/JO2 since that seems to be what they did the best on in Jedi Outcast.

Some of the things I wish they'd improve appon in JK3 are:

Force Speed is far too cheap in single player... Especially on boss fights... Actually, it's so incredibly lame that I felt like I was cheating when I used it on Dessan. I suggest they either make force speed like it was in JK1, or make bosses be able to counter it, or weaken it substantially.

A better plot. I thought both DF and DFII had a very interesting and compact story. Maybe it's just me; but JO's wasn't too involving or interesting for the most part. Actually, I thought it started out VERY good, very creepy with the little clues as to what the remnant is doing, but quickly (right after Kyle gets his saber back) it becomes too obvious and feels too rushed.

Harder, and more numerous boss fights. Tavion was actually pretty difficult, and pretty fun. The main reason why fighting her was actually mildly difficult was because Force speed didn't slow everything down so much. Galak was pretty darn cool (reminded me of general Mohc), but even he was much too easy. Dessan was a TOTAL joke. Just turn on force speed and take out your heavy stance and you'd beat him in 15 seconds or less. I'm not saying they should make the bosses like JKI, where Jerec has 19,900 more points of health then Kyle, but the fights just need to be LONGER and more interesting.

I mean come on, even in this day and age we can't get a good MOVING boss battle? I was really hoping to get a really long boss battle that moved throughout a huge level, in sepereate parts, but instead got a tiny little boss fight in a little tiny room that took only 20 seconds to beat! I hope we can get something alittle better in JK3/JKII:x. Heck, even JKI had a Moving Boss Fight with Maw... What an awesome fight! I'd love to see something like that again with a good saber fighting system.

I was actually pretty happy with the level design, and puzzles in JKII. The only time it seemed to feel rushed was towards the end. The last 3 levels were far too short, and not very well detialed in my opinion. I mean really; the last level before Boc in JK1 was AWESOME, and pretty long... absolutely no comparison in JKII can be found. Other then that though, I thought the level design was extreemly good, and I hope Raven can make some levels on the same calibur (and better!) for JK3.

And my last and most stressed aspect for need of improvement is BALANCE, and more balance. Really, this is where the short developement time showed the most in JO. Balance between everything seemed unpolished. The Balance between force powers was terrible (though JK1s was also horrible, but that's not excuse). Force Speed was the ULTIMATE offensive, and defensive power in JO. It made battles FAR too easy, and overshadowed all force powers that should be used for offensive. Choke was 100% useless, except for alittle amusement every so often. Lighting was 100% useless untill you got level 3 lighting, but that wasn't even untill the second to last level! and what a short level it was... What a potentially awesome force power wasted :(.

The Balance between difficulty was also UNbalanced throughout all of JO. A room of storm troopers in level 4 of JO is infinitly more deadly then either Dark Jedi or Galak. Same would go for 3 or more reborns compared to Dessan (untill you use force speed ofcourse, then everything is so easy you can't even compare difficulties :p). The game pre-force power was also FAR FAR harder then the game post-force power... mainly because of speed.

Weapon balance was actually pretty decent in SP though.

Anyways... enough of my rambling... To sum it up, I thought the multiplayer in JO was very uninspiring. The single player (which is what I bought JO for) was very good, though very unblananced (which killed some of the fun). It did show some remarkable potential though; given a more relaxed developement time.

If Raven could learn from their mistakes within the single player of JO, such as lack of interesting atmosphere, poor balance, weak (in all sense of the word) boss fights, incredibly lame force powers, ect, then an expansion, or sequal to JKII: JO could prove to offer the best single player game experiance since DF and JKII... or perhaps even surpass.


(Silent Thunder returns quickly to whence he came)

ryudom
02-23-2003, 10:50 PM
i just want locational in SP and MP... like head shots = death and such.

Doctor Shaft
02-24-2003, 01:17 AM
Silent_Thunder, it's like you've read my mind. In a nutshell, the game seemed to be a lot of fun flash and glitz, but when you used something that wasn't so fancy, like force speed, you could immediately tell that some things were mostly cosmetic.

Raven did a good job, but they were definitely lacking in some areas. This games multiplayer will be something that some will look at with a frown on their face for years to come, while others still are comfortable with what they have.

The next Dark Force definitely needs to go away from the cutsey graphics and return to the gameplay fold. Dark Forces never looked 'awesome'. It was impressive for what it was, but it wasn't mind boggling. What made it great was how it broke new ground. Finally a game where you could jump. Finally a game that didn't consist of demon Nazis, or just plain demons. With the missions, you were really immersed in the game... it didn't matter that it was just another fps with star wars guns... the gameplay and feel made it all.

JK also had that going on. While I personally hated the battle with Jerec (come on, I was slashing that geezer up for ten minutes, that was more a battle of how well can I use force heal and absorb to escape his el cheapo fast lightning blasts), the level preceding him was nice and long. MotS had the same thing going on when you go after Kyle. That was an incredibly long level, and the battle against Kyle was amazing (for those of you who didn't play MotS, I'll try not to ruin how the ending works). As far as I was concerned, the final MotS battle was THE best boss battle I ever had, except during the time I didn't figure out what to do. What impressed me most about it was just how long it took me. I mean, it's an first person shooter, so I'm not really thinking about alternatives to fighting, I just think "DBZ time!!! Destroy my enemy, super jedi level 4!!!!!", but anyone who played MotS knows that doesn't work.

Multiplayer definitely needs a system where people aren't relying a great deal on being able to jump and run. The powers should be made stronger, more useful, more 'spectacular', but also a great deal more power consuming. Push and pull abilities were cool, but as soon as we were giving the ability to do it six or seven times in close succession, people start get annoyed. There are certainly 'spammy' moments in JO. I know a single player game takes a lot of work, here's hoping though that if they take a VERY close look at how their multiplayer setting is. Having a patch crisis like JO had a second time is certainly not acceptable. They need to release a version that has a good solid vision as to what the game should be. A vision that allows the community of gamers, without a shadow of a doubt, to understand what the game is about, and how it should be played.

Games like Starfleet Command 2: Empires at War did this. This game had TONS of patches, and tons of issues that either weren't implemented or weren't working corrected. Regardless of that, there was a clear vision as to how the game was meant to function. Besides the usual scrub issues like "my photon torpedo doesn't hit enough" (it's a hard weapon to use), the community got on. I feel JO doesn't exactly have that. Oh well. Cheers.

Naphtali
02-24-2003, 06:19 AM
First you people say the boss should be tougher then you say the saber fighting should be more realistic, make up your minds if anything the boss should use more technique than force powers, DEssan just push you around, and use lightning, reborn flip, and lunge all day, so the saber system shoud be improved, not lets give dessan 4999 points of health, then you slice him in the head and you only take 399 points. Step backward, keep it realistic.

Silent_Thunder
02-24-2003, 04:42 PM
I don't want a boss fight like Jerec again... Where the Boss has 20,000 of your healths. What I want is a battle that is LONG, but FUN, and atleast somewhat difficult (and no, I'm not a l33T gamer, but I still felt Dessan was too easy).

I know a lot of people may not like this... but I personally would like a more scripted boss fight. Think Maw, but on a much broader scale.

Let me explain what I mean, I'll give an example of my ultimate boss battle... which I think is quite possible to do with the current tech;

The setting is in an ancient sith temple (for example).

You're fighting the last boss of the game. He is a Dark Jedi which you tracked down to the planet Massassi (whatever..), all the way into an ancient temple of the sith. (Don't ask me what he's doing there) He has roughly 500 health (you don't want him TOO easy, do you?). You begin the fight in a roughly rectangular structure--a normal "boss arena". This is probably the room directly inside of the Sith temple. There is a decending stair case on the far side of the structure. You begin to engage him in battle: The fallen Jedi uses a slower form of lightsaber combat, revolving around superior blocking ability, and slow heavy swings. He blocks most of your attacks, but you manage to lacerate your enemy with three solid slashes after two minutes of intense battle. That brings his health down to roughly 300. You're wounded but still quite on top of things.

Seeing he's at a disadvantage the Dark Jedi begins to retreat (he's programed to retreat after losing so much health). You could kill him now if you're fast enough, ending the level, but most likely he'll get away. As the Dark Jedi retreats to the decending stair case, he runs under an arch way and uses the force to pull the pillars supporting the archway down--blocking your path, and forcing you to find another way to get to him... and finish him off.

You have to find another way to get to him. You spend another 5 minutes or so exploring the maze inside of the ancient ruins of the sith temple. You heal yourself and get ready for combat. Along the way you encounter a few deadly nocturnal wolves, drawen to you by your scent in the force (forgot what that kind of wolf was called)

You make your way into the center of the ruins... a forgotten crypt of long dead sith warriors from more then a millenia ago are lieing within their tombs.

Out of the darkness you see the familiar glow of a red lightsaber, and hear the unmistakable sound of the ancient weapon being ignited. Your query; the Dark Jedi you hunted springs out of the darkness and fights with renewed power, increased agility and speed. For the second part of the battle he is using a much faster and more powerful form of lightsaber combat, which focuses primarily on offense, instead of defense.

With skillful dodges and parries you hold your own. Despite the Dark Jedi's fierce attack, you manage to beat him back once again. You land several more damaging blows, weaking him further. Out of desperation your adversary uses all of his might to summon the the ancient Dark Lords of sith from the slumber (undead sith like in MotS). The unded sith rise from their tombs, and engage you in lighting based attacks. The Dark Jedi retreats once again to heal some of his wounds while you are occupied. You easily dispatch of the animated corpses of the fallen warriors, and follow your weakened opponent to his grave.

For the last part of the battle you fight the Dark Jedi in an extreemly unstable part of the sith temple. Here the floor and ceiling is collapsing from merely walking appon it. The Dark Jedi uses a more balanced attack and defend strategy then before, employing any of his force powers at the best opportunety. As the ground begins to colapse, you are forced farther and farther back into the temple--lest you become trapped below.

Eventually both you and your opponent fall into the collapsing ruins (or else you could kill him before that happens, but unlikely). As the falling debres subside you find yourself trapped inside of a small structure with the Dark Jedi. After a terrific battle you finally vanquish your enemy. The cutscene shows him "exploding" with dark force energies (like the Emperor and that other dark jedi in the Thrawn trillogy) leaving a gaping hole in the ceiling; allowing you to escaple... the end cutscene is showen, ect, ect.



Back to reality for a moment... Actually; a boss fight like that is more than possible with the technology already available. The battle with Maw is really just a precursor of an awesomely detailed moving boss battle like the one I described I above (but hopefully better :)).

Which kind of boss battles would you rather see; ones like the Star Wars movies that move from room to room (which is not hard to do, while still giving the player different options in defeating the boss), or static boss fights where you and your enemy just face off in a tiny arena and hack at each other (or use force speed :p) for a few minutes untill either you die, and start over, or your opponet finally is defeated?

StormHammer
02-24-2003, 05:37 PM
Silent_Thunder...long time no see, so welcome back. :)

That's a nice scenario for an end battle. :cool:

I think everyone pretty much knows my thoughts on so-called 'Boss levels' in the modern FPS. Being trapped in a (relatively) small chamber with lots of ammo/health pickups fighting a single Boss with lots of health and armour was fun back in the days of Doom. But the whole genre has moved on since then, and I totally agree that an Epic lightsaber duel through several chambers, if not an entire huge level, fits better with some of the duels we've seen in the movies... And I'll give you a real kicker, here...I don't necessarily see that I have to kill the Boss character myself. Some people would argue it robs you of a sense of satisfaction at defeating the villain...but for me defeating the villain should not be the sole focus of the story. In short, it doesn't have to be the very end of the game, with a closing cut scene. You could still go on to complete other objectives (like saving a world/city from destruction). Also, I rather like the idea of not being 100% certain that your nemesis is dead and gone.

Games are often still too Black and White...Good and Evil...but there's lots of room for shades of grey and uncertainties. You can still have epic battles, but their conclusion does not have to be the culmination of events, and sometimes you should just plain lose the fight, but live to fight another day.

Jolts
02-25-2003, 04:04 PM
I think the very nature of a star wars jedi game calls for some kind of mixtures of all the different game genres out there. Trying to lock it down into a fps game with a third player view option ends up hurting it more than advancing it.

The problem I see in most fps games is they havn't changed all that much since the days of duke3d, I'm ignoring the 3d part just talking about gameplay. But I guess when your in charge of a $5-15mil project you might want to play it safe.