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Smood
01-24-2003, 10:09 PM
Ok well I opened this thread to discuss what this new sequel/expansion should be, what was done right in jk2 and what should be changed for the next sequel/expansion.

Now, I'am not trying to brag but I really feel my suggestions are key points that can make a great game into an unbelievable game.

Before I begin I would ask that all posters in this thread limit their ideas to (significant core changes) (i.e. no fix the damn door in yavin). THANKS.

|= [THE CHANGES REQUIRED ]======================================

============
| SABER COMBAT |
============

This is probably the biggest area of change that could make the game simply fantastic. The existing combat was definitely a huge step up from Dark Forces 2, stances were a fairly creative idea and helped the game. Another leap in combat is necessary.

The biggest drawback to RAVEN’s saber system is they felt it should be ‘intuitive’ in other words a new player should be able to pick it up right away. In fact, an actual raven employee said on XGR, if you want to master the system you can do that, but if you just want to mash the buttons then its ok for that too, its very intuitive. For me intuitive means simple, basic and something with lack of depth. Which I feel is the current state of saber combat.

The combat system I imagine is one where the saber is fluid and organic not mechanical. The saber once swung can be manipulated in almost unlimited fashion with movement of the mouse. This will allow for an unaccountable number of types of attacks and widens the scope of saber combat greatly. To complement this huge core change would be a manual blocking system. The system would be fully manual yielding no auto blocking. Creating effective saber combats with this system could definitely be difficult, one method of ocercoming boundaries set by this design is possibly having a jedi sense level where faint indicators project the region in which a saber will pass moments before it does to help allow the player to react to another individual’s saber.

PARRYING
This can be done quite well with the above system, as long as it works around momentum. Saber battling should often have one party who is mainly attacking while the other is defending and numerous switchs in roles. Only a few times should you have individuals both attacking and in essence defending.

SKILL
This system while complex and not NOOB friendly, will yield to greater pleasure and appreciation of a skillful game and experience in the end. A noob will stand out like a neon sign in the combat system, they would easily be overpowered by a skilled duelist (refer to THE SABER).

============
| MOVEMENT |
============

To follow the movies more closely, and to make battling more exciting movement in jediknight needs a large revamp. Instead of being quite fps like, it should be more delicate, and intricate. Some solid suggestions follow.

During saber combat individuals are able to move left and right in a very short time, this leads to a cheap fps game/feel not suitable for a type of combat game like jedi outcast. Instead by the same change as above, making the stepping fluid and organic (have movement slower, and better blended) would bring a much greater feel of true saber battling, and movie/real life movement.

One key here is making movement slower relative to the world and relative to other individuals.


============
| THE FORCE |
============

The force powers in jedi outcast were fairly well done and a step in the right direction, except for their frequent usage, and commonality. To bring JO to a more movie like feel (less of a cheesy spammy feel), it would be ideal to make forces much stronger, but have them all proportionally cost much more force.

An example of the outcomes of this type of change might be less frequent force jumping (similar to movies), grip should be powerful enough to kill an enemy but should do so slowly, and appear to torcher the enemy, however the tradeoff would be the jedi performing the grip would only be able to walk slowly and be exposed to attack.

============
| THE SABER |
============

THE BIG FACTOR IS DAMAGE!
The saber is a deadly weapon, a touch of it can mean instant dismemberment and cauterization of afflicted body parts. However in JEDI OUTCAST developers have made the same mistake as many other fps games. They reduced the deadliness of the weapon in hopes of preserving game play. This only takes away from game play. As long as a new complex combat system is in place the saber should be lethal. Swinging the saber through any part of body should yield instant decapitation and death of the player, but connecting a clean strike will be difficult if your opponent is equally skilled.

The saber looks fairly convincing, and with modifications even better. Maintaining a movie like feel would simply involve changing the core glow slightly to represent a straight tube rather then a pointed end (i.e. ep1 – 2).

============
| GRAPHICS |
============

This is a fairly obvious and self-explanatory category. Get out of quake world and up the game technology. Be it an existing engine or new one, making graphics more appealing to the player is the only goal here.

============
| ANIMATION |
============

Animation in JEDI OUTCAST was fairly well done, however was too repetitive and not very varied. In this area I’m simply looking for an expanding of types of animations during combat, and when running (i.e. running normally, running enraged or concentrated [saber held high with too hands close to face]).

Again in this category achieving a fluid blended feel is important. Jerking from one animation to another is the one thing that must be avoided.


CONCLUSION:
This is a big task. These changes demand a lot, but I believe successful implementation of any of them with the appropriate testing and balancing will yield an exciting improvement to an already great game!

Sithcloak
01-25-2003, 01:23 AM
I agree with you on most of your points, but I believe that they did try once before to dictate saber movement by the movement of the mouse. Only problem with this is that you would not be able to fluidly control your movement at the same time, most players do use their mouse for percise movements. The keyboard is rather clumsy in this regard.

If you have any ideas on how to get around this problem, I'd like to hear them.

But not to end on a down beat, I do believe your analisis is very good and does touch on some of the most important points of the game.

Sithcloak

Smood
01-25-2003, 01:32 AM
Thank you very much sithcloak, I appreciate your feedback. Actually that is one thing I forgot to mention. The system would also work so that the fluid control of the saber is controlled by the mouse, while the DEGREE OF MOVEMENT from one direction to another AND THE SPEED OF MOVEMENT as well AS DIRECTION would be controlled by standard keyboard keys.

Pressing the keys gradually after one another would assist in the blending of footfalls, and those movements that register too wild (i.e. left tap twice, right tap 3 times) will be streamlined by code to simulate real life movement.

More feedback would be appreciated. I hope I can send this information in to some authority at activision or lucas to look over.

FK|FallenOne
01-25-2003, 02:21 AM
Yippy. Those ideas are great for duels. But dueling is only a fraction of the multiplayer aspect of this game. Those changes would absolutely suck in real tffa/ffa/ctf. Whether you like it or not this game was always MEANT to be an FPS. The previous two installments had been as well. If you want all that crap wait for KOTOR. You should post your ideas there. You people that cried about the saber combat originally are the reason why it sucks now. Now you want more changes that will more than likely make the game even more boring. If you want those changes, make a mod yourself. Code it yourself. We (the competitive clan community) want the gameplay issues themselves worked out. Not a whole new system that to me would be boring as hell. Fluid movement usually = slow movement. We like this game because of its speed and fast pased action. Not to be slow and boring. Besides that the method you describe would take a multitude of button combinations. More so then some of the more elaborate moves now. I say fix the gameplay issues but don't change anything so drastically that the only community this game has left is the freaking duelists.

Luc Solar
01-25-2003, 04:39 AM
You got some good points but Fallenone is right...sorta.

You only focus on duels and lightsabers. There's a lot more to this game. Personally I enjoy all guns-full force-FFA's the most.
Slow movement and guns don't really mix.

I think promod did a good job in making saber combat fun again. I'd like to see those ideas implemented in the sequel.

New guns and BALANCED force powers would be cool. I'd also like to see more interaction with the surroundigs --> pushable & breakable objects etc.

To bring JO to a more movie like feel (less of a cheesy spammy feel)...

I don't see a way around this. It all depends on how people play the game. If someone finds a strategy that works, he'll probably spam it 24/7. That's what people are like...spammers :D

If you want cinematic fights, just play with the right people. There's not much you can do if someone thinks it is way cool to have Lando run around like a headless chicken taunting non-stop.

WOOOOOHOOOOOOOO!! :D

Khaza
01-25-2003, 06:16 AM
Some of those changes Smood descibed were very good but like FallenOne said they wouldn't work in other gametypes. I think we need lots of different combos/moves (not completely new sabering system), saber should also be more effective. Currently saber is just a glowing stick that is used as a shield if guns are enabled, and if not then kicking is the only way to kill enemy. Those new moves should not be more effective than any other move, instead damage should be calculated by checking where saber hit (locational damage) and for how long time... Also few guns should be modified because they just don't fit into Star Wars universe. Knocking out by a kick was great idea from Raven but it should have been expanded to exposions aswell, think your self being hit by a rocket while having full armour and you would be knocked out by the explosion like in real life (if any human could survive from such blash :D).


I would like if someone from Raven (or whoever is making the game) would read these posts because speculation about these things don't help us at all !

X_Wing_Pilot
01-25-2003, 07:41 AM
This is probably the biggest area of change that could make the game simply fantastic. The existing combat was definitely a huge step up from Dark Forces 2, stances were a fairly creative idea and helped the game. Another leap in combat is necessary

The biggest drawback to RAVEN’s saber system is they felt it should be ‘intuitive’ in other words a new player should be able to pick it up right away. In fact, an actual raven employee said on XGR, if you want to master the system you can do that, but if you just want to mash the buttons then its ok for that too, its very intuitive. For me intuitive means simple, basic and something with lack of depth. Which I feel is the current state of saber combat.

The combat system I imagine is one where the saber is fluid and organic not mechanical. The saber once swung can be manipulated in almost unlimited fashion with movement of the mouse. This will allow for an unaccountable number of types of attacks and widens the scope of saber combat greatly. To complement this huge core change would be a manual blocking system. The system would be fully manual yielding no auto blocking. Creating effective saber combats with this system could definitely be difficult, one method of ocercoming boundaries set by this design is possibly having a jedi sense level where faint indicators project the region in which a saber will pass moments before it does to help allow the player to react to another individual’s saber.

PARRYING
This can be done quite well with the above system, as long as it works around momentum. Saber battling should often have one party who is mainly attacking while the other is defending and numerous switchs in roles. Only a few times should you have individuals both attacking and in essence defending.

SKILL
This system while complex and not NOOB friendly, will yield to greater pleasure and appreciation of a skillful game and experience in the end. A noob will stand out like a neon sign in the combat system, they would easily be overpowered by a skilled duelist (refer to THE SABER).

My opinion this would not really work in sp (an idea like this came up in an earlier thread using this feature in Die by the Sword.)
The parrying system you mentioned i agree with i'm more of a mix of the phantom menace (the game) ROTJ and Jedi outcast style of battles

What i liked best in the 3 games i mentioned

Phantom menace: The blocking System
ROTJ: attack and defending at the same time (like fencing)
Jedi Outcast: The Stance System

I not really bothering to fit all of the thread in so i put a bit in so here is the rest of my opinions:-

Movement

A good feature to use in SP but when comes to MP Bots would be usless to this feature this is more of a human player only feature to exploit its full potential

The force

Im fine with this idea. An extra feature to add on to it is the addition of a force mana Bar e.g

Level 1: Mana level at normal but takes 60 seconds to regenerate
the force mana

Level 2: Mana level Increased by 20% regeneration takes 45 seconds to get back to full

Level 3 Mana increased to 50% of level 1 Regen takes 30 seconds to get to full power

Saber Damage should be like a gun hit the head and instant kill happens and different parts of bodies do different damage like legs would only do a fraction of what a hit in the chest would do

The Quake 3 Engine yes may be getting old but improvements are always coming up to make it better doom 3 graphics may be the future but quake 3's is Good enough to use maybe in the sequels sequel we may be seeing it in doom 3 format

you missed out AI yes the ai from games has increased dramatically from the creatures in pacman chasing you to games like B&W where the ai is revelutionary to say the least a significant ai improvement would get a longer lasting game and make it more complex and unpredictable (in JO it was easy to guess what move they would do the sequel/expansion could change all that through more complex scripting)

These are my opinions thank you for reading this

Krelia
01-25-2003, 08:29 AM
ok a raven rep stated jedi outcast was a button masher game. obviously if you are suggesting more combos to be put into the game you don't understand what a button masher is.

a button masher is like tekken 4. there are so many combos in the game any skilless player can randomly hit buttons to pull off a combo and beat a skilled player who knows what they are doing with blind luck. adding more combos will not fix your problem.

force powers should be left alone and players have to fix that with a mod. what works for saberists obviously will not work for gunners.

GIVE US BACK OUR CONCUSSION RIFLE.

guns should be more like q3 with force powers, balance the guns out. and for god's sake put the conc rifle back in. how could you remove the coolest gun of both the first and second games.

how could you make guns so weak without giving ANY force powers to compensate. push/pull are a joke, rage makes you run out of ammo faster. lightning is too slow and too negligable for damage as it has always been. where is the all-balancing destruct? its ok, ff guns players can fix raven's screwup with a mod unless they want to be all-kind and benevolant, making 2 sets of force powers, balancing each one for each type of gameplay instead of sloppily throwing a game together to meet a marketing deadline. hopes for buying jk3/q4 dwindling to nothingness with raven's involvement.

P4ulo
01-25-2003, 11:21 AM
I agree with Krelia

happydan
01-25-2003, 11:33 AM
IMO, the last game shouldnt have even been on the Q3 engine. its old and clunky, and limits the feel of movement. the game can be enough of a succes to warrant using a newer engine such as Uengine. hell, if they announced it would be on D3 engine, id be happy to wait.

BallisticWookiee
01-25-2003, 11:51 AM
Moving away from gameplay aspects, which is important in itself, I would like alot of focus on the story involved in the game. No more Imperial Remnant, this game should and hopefully will take place sometime between the "truce" of the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant and also a few months, perhaps a year into the invasion of the Yuuzhan Vong. I feel the Imperials being the bad guys in the universe has been well and truly overdone, and they need a new direction. The war against the Yuuzhan Vong would give a breath of new life into the series, and the player could perhaps work along side other Jedi or Rogue/Wraith Squadron, the Imperials or even the Chiss to try and destroy the Vong enemy he/she comes up against.

Along with the setting, there should be all the political turmoil, decension, backstabbing and traitorous actions among members of the senate, aswell as the division among the rank of the Jedi and their role in this new and dangerous problem facing them. The player should have to protect themselves aswell as others with them from the the Vong and their Peace Brigade collaboraters and bounty hunters/mercanaries looking to cash in on the Vong demands regarding the Jedi. They should also have the added mission goals of being charged by Luke Skywalker to hunt out the "moles" and traitors among the New Republic.

I hope I didnt ruin anything for those not this far into the EU, but I really do hope that LucasArts start using elements freely available to them in the EU, and use them to make a game truly brilliant, perhaps along the lines of Deus Ex/Jedi Outcast/X Wing Alliance...ie; a roleplaying, character building element with multiple story endings, all the action and excitement of JO mixed with Space Combat fighting Coral Skippers and other Vong ships. This is my hope for the next game in this outstanding series. :)

DeTRiTiC-iQ
01-25-2003, 12:24 PM
A good choice would be a game based on Quake 4 once its finished, since Quake 4 is likely to have the same movement feel that we gunners all love :)

However the way to stop people spamming is simple, stop spamming being beneficial. With guns this is already accomplished, since you'll run out of ammo or be dead before spam shots ever hit anyone. But with force, its down to removing rage and push, and altering pull to its JK equivalent (IMO)

BallisticWookiee
01-25-2003, 12:34 PM
You're forgetting one important thing....the Quake 4 engine is based on the Doom 3 engine ;). I think as far as graphics go, the Unreal 2 engine would be a far better choice. Larger outdoor environments, larger amount of AI/BOTS on the screen at one time, and the particle effects and lighting effects that the Unreal engine is capable of are incredible, perhaps not as good as Doom 3, but they are still very impressive. And when it comes to playability, frames per second, and graphics, I think the all round better choice would be for the Unreal tech as opposed to the Doom 3/Quake 4 tech. Thats my opinion anyway... :)

Jolts
01-25-2003, 12:59 PM
I want to see updated rendering engine with pixel/vertex shading, rag doll physics, a few jawa tossings also.

Smood
01-25-2003, 01:14 PM
Many people had concerns about my saber system not working in other game types, but I would beg differ. To allow it to work in CTF or FFA, there are 2 solutions I see...

Solution 1: Just employ the system, the reason this system will work is manual blocking. You will almost always have skill differences and thus kills are often quick in this type of system, especially for damage.

Solution 2: Have a slightly altered partially/full auto block system for all other gametypes. This would leave dueling a gametype for SERIOUS duelists.

NOTE* the movement changes I suggested would not hinder gunners, it would just make the humanoid motion much more realistic.

ANOTHER BIG CHANGE would be jumping during duels. I truly feel this should be limited. I constantly see duels with jedi jumping up and down for no reason. If this were limited to one strong jump (force) and then a complete drain of force for a while we would get a quite enriched dueling and fighting feel to the game.

Krelia
01-25-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Smood

NOTE* the movement changes I suggested would not hinder gunners, it would just make the humanoid motion much more realistic.


the whole reason i play games like q3 and jk2 are for the unrealistic and extremely fast paced movement. if i want realism i'll play battlefield 1942 24/7. its a fun game but i only break it out once every two weeks or so because the movement is so boring.

DeTRiTiC-iQ
01-25-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by BallisticWookiee
You're forgetting one important thing....the Quake 4 engine is based on the Doom 3 engine ;). I think as far as graphics go, the Unreal 2 engine would be a far better choice. Larger outdoor environments, larger amount of AI/BOTS on the screen at one time, and the particle effects and lighting effects that the Unreal engine is capable of are incredible, perhaps not as good as Doom 3, but they are still very impressive. And when it comes to playability, frames per second, and graphics, I think the all round better choice would be for the Unreal tech as opposed to the Doom 3/Quake 4 tech. Thats my opinion anyway... :)

I'm not forgetting one important thing. I'm remembering that Doom 3 is designed to be quite slow, i've played the leaked alpha, whereas Quake 4 will be designed with fast pace in mind. It will be a lot easier for a developer to make a fast paced game based on Quake 4 rather than Doom 3.

mrsparkle
01-25-2003, 04:16 PM
I would like to see more vehicle/weapons options, especially for the single player game.

The level where you took control of the ATST was nice, but that's about it as far as I remember. How about speeder bikes? Tauntauns on an ice planet? That sandspeeder thing from the first movie? Jabba's barge with that nice blaster on the upper deck? (maybe a 2-person vehicle?)

How about some 'space pilot' missions ala the first Star Wars movie? (land missions followed by a space battle)? I recall spaceship battles being a large part of the Star Wars movies (the good ones, the first 3 minus ewoks, not this new crap). There were land missions to complete, then a large space battle to fight.

I'm sure this could work in multiplayer. I wouldn't mind at all a multiplayer space battle map all about piloting. Cuz you know, after a while this game get stale with the same few maps, weapons, and game types.

EDIT: question is, is there a game engine that can do all that?

Reborn Outcast
01-25-2003, 04:32 PM
Yea I would like to see vehicle and aircraft like in Halo. Also they need to scrap Kyle and make someone new and have the timeframe set in the Vong invasion. One more thing is, while using force powers lik,e lightning you should be able to use it with one hand and shoot with the other at the same time. Everything else I think is fine.

Luc Solar
01-25-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by BallisticWookiee
...this game should and hopefully will take place sometime between the "truce" of the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant and also a few months, perhaps a year into the invasion of the Yuuzhan Vong. I feel the Imperials being the bad guys in the universe has been well and truly overdone, and they need a new direction. The war against the Yuuzhan Vong would give a breath of new life into the series, and the player could perhaps work along side other Jedi or Rogue/Wraith Squadron, the Imperials or even the Chiss to try and destroy the Vong enemy he/she comes up against.

Don't want to spoil your big plans, but...taking out the stormtroopers and other good ol' Star Wars stuff would mean that it is no longer Star Wars.

I bet 90% of the people who bought this game and might be buying the next one, have never even heard of Yuuzhan Vong.

I heard about them on these forums for the first time. Aren't those guys immune to force powers? Wouldn't that be kinda boring..? Getting all these awesome force powers and then realize that they don't work on anyone? :rolleyes:

But seriously - taking out the stuff that we recognize from the movies would be like taking out Force and Sabers. They're the only reason why people are playing this game.
Untill they succeed in making Vuu..Yuuhz...whatever...as widely known as Darth Vader and Luke are, there is really no point in creating a game about them.

...well not if they plan on people buying it, that is. ;)

Spider AL
01-25-2003, 05:12 PM
Honestly, having read some of the opinions in this thread, I seriously doubt that there will ever be an FPS based on Star Wars that is anything more than mildly popular. Too much expectation, frankly.

Why? Because what Star Wars fanboys want from a game almost never tallies with what dedicated gamers want from a game.

Let me clarify: There are two types of people who play JO, and JK before it. (Excluding your basic weekend player, in search of fun.)

1. Gamers. People who want to play the game, because they find playing the game fun. They want to win, because they find winning fun. They care about score, because it's a gauge of whether or not they've won. These people tend to have more skill, because they play all the time. ALL the time.

2. Fanboys. These individuals want to play the game because they're fans of Star Wars. In the days of DF2, these people inevitably ended up on the Zone running a three-person "Drazen RPG" where they spent literally hours pretending to be a REAL Jedi, a smuggler, a waiter, or something even more tedious. Or they started an Oasis NF server in which they forbade anyone to use any guns at all.

Now I don't particularly like such individuals, in that I don't like playing with them, they tend to whine if anyone wants to actually play the game. (For score) And some of them pretend to be waiters.

But in the days of JK, I didn't have to play with them, they were happy in their utterly pointless Drazen RPG game, and I was happy in my game of BGJ FF or Oasis NF.

JO is a dedicated server game however, which means we have to play together on the same servers.

And those forces which were never meant to be mixed, were mixed.

So what happens? Fanboys get angry. Why? Weeeell when fanboys play a game about Jedi they want to be REAL Jedi. REEEAL Jedi. REAL Jedi don't get shot when they wave their sabres about aimlessly. REAL Jedi don't get blown up because they didn't notice the wodge of trip-mines in front of them. A REAL Jedi doesn't get reduced to powder by a Tenloss while they're duelling with another REAL Jedi.

Now since fanboys don't practice AT ALL, these things inevitably happen to them. This snaps them out of their fantasy. They suddenly remember that they're not, in fact, a REAL Jedi.

And this annoys them. It annoys them like being woken up during a really good dream about ice-cream annoys you or I.

Now, the big difference between the fanboy and the gamer, is the volume of whine they're capable of producing. Your average fanboy can produce an astronomical volume of whine per-day. And they never EVER stop.

That's what happened to JO when 1.03 came out. Raven was literally swamped in pure whine for two months, and then they released an ill-conceived patch designed to pander to the fanboys in the community. It was grossly imbalanced from a gameplay perspective of course, because gameplay is irrelevant in the mind of the fanboy.

From this we can infer the universal rule of Fanboyitis: What is good for the gamer is not good for the fanboy, and vice-versa.

Now, on to Smood's points:

***

The Good:

Originally posted by Smood:
it would be ideal to make forces much stronger, but have them all proportionally cost much more force.

In my opinion, this is the only decent, and certainly the only workable suggestion you made. I'd add increased individual force-timers in addition to the all-purpose mana-well though. If you use push, it should take a certain amount of time before you can use it again. This would make combos more desirable, and would cut down on individual power-spamming

***

The Bad:

Originally posted by Smood:
Now, I'am not trying to brag but I really feel my suggestions are key points that can make a great game into an unbelievable game.

:eyeraise:

Originally posted by Smood:
The combat system I imagine is one where the saber is fluid and organic not mechanical. The saber once swung can be manipulated in almost unlimited fashion with movement of the mouse. This will allow for an unaccountable number of types of attacks and widens the scope of saber combat greatly.


And widens the scope of lag, greatly. Nice idea, but honestly, be realistic. This is a big game, with lots of people wandering around waving their sabres simultaneously.

Originally posted by Smood:
Saber battling should often have one party who is mainly attacking while the other is defending and numerous switchs in roles. Only a few times should you have individuals both attacking and in essence defending.


You're describing a beat-em-up game here. Sounds awful, slow, unwieldy and tedious. DF, JK and JO were all great fast-paced FPS games. I say, go onward in that tradition.

Originally posted by Smood:
To follow the movies more closely, and to make battling more exciting movement in jediknight needs a large revamp. Instead of being quite fps like, it should be more delicate, and intricate.


It's an FPS. It's an FPS. I realise this will not make ANY impact at all, but I have to say it: It's a particular style of game. Change that style, and you have a different type of game. Petition LEC to make a Jedi-based beat-em-up if you wish... But leave the sanctity of the only decent Star-Wars-based FPS series alone.

Originally posted by Smood:
Swinging the saber through any part of body should yield instant decapitation and death of the player,


So, you hit someone in the foot, and their head falls off.

:nut:

I think this is a terrible, nay, abysmal idea. I would recommend in its place, a system whereby if the sabre contacts the neck or head of the model, the head is severed. If the sabre contacts the thigh of the model, the leg falls off. An area-based damage system is long overdue.

Originally posted by Smood:
During saber combat individuals are able to move left and right in a very short time, this leads to a cheap fps game/feel not suitable for a type of combat game like jedi outcast. Instead by the same change as above, making the stepping fluid and organic (have movement slower, and better blended) would bring a much greater feel of true saber battling, and movie/real life movement. One key here is making movement slower relative to the world and relative to other individuals.

And:

Originally posted by Smood:
ANOTHER BIG CHANGE would be jumping during duels. I truly feel this should be limited. I constantly see duels with jedi jumping up and down for no reason. If this were limited to one strong jump (force) and then a complete drain of force for a while we would get a quite enriched dueling and fighting feel to the game.


So you want movement to be restricted, you want the game slowed down and you want one-hit-kills.

You DO want them to turn it into a beat-em-up. It's an FPS. Live with it.

If lateral motion of your opponent, or even aimless jumping, confuses you... let me refer you to Phayyde's master-work, the "Book of Honor" (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44054) particularly rule number 1, rule no. 8 and rule no. 11.

Why do people try to alter the DF series to be the game they want? Can't they petition LEC for a game of the type they like? Can't they make a mod? No, is the answer... why, escapes me.

***

The Ugly Truth:

Any gamer will of course tell you that skill is skill. There will always be people willing to put the time in to learn the easiest ways to win a game. No amount of changes will alter that.

You can never stop spam completely. Nobody ever has.

You can never create a totally balanced game, nobody ever has, not even Chess is totally balanced.

You can never plug enough loopholes to stop those who exploit them. They will ALWAYS find a way through.

Now that this has been said, the truth is surely clear- A game should be designed to be exciting, fun and interesting... Let the dynamic and the balance take care of itself. Games with good balance succeed, games with bad balance fail. Let a dead game die, and let those who enjoy a game continue to enjoy it. Changing the core of a game after it's been released, after it's found its fans... is always BAD.

PS: Luc's right btw, EU is a terrible idea.

BallisticWookiee
01-25-2003, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
I'm not forgetting one important thing. I'm remembering that Doom 3 is designed to be quite slow, i've played the leaked alpha, whereas Quake 4 will be designed with fast pace in mind. It will be a lot easier for a developer to make a fast paced game based on Quake 4 rather than Doom 3.

Ummmm, I've played the leaked Alpha aswell, so what ? Quake 4 uses the Doom 3 engine, no matter what they do, your going to get the same gameplay that is offered in Doom 3. Doom 3 will be more heavily optimised than the leak was and run a great deal better, but it will still be a slower paced game. Add to the fact you will need atleast the latest and greatest hardware to be even PLAY Quake 4 and Doom 3. I'm hoping Lucasrts dont go down the track of better graphics while sacrificing a large fan base and limiting the games users to those with the hardware to use it. It wouldnt be practical, and the engine is hardly a wise choice as far as the quick gameplay seen in the Jedi Knight series. The Unreal engine seems like a much better choice, adding bump mapping, particle effects, dynamic lighting and the karma technology for realistic death animations.

As far as the story goes, if this is once again Kyle Katarn fighting of the hordes of dumb Stormtroopers from the Imperial Remnant than Lucasarts are flogging are very dead and stiff horse. So far all the games featuring Kyle have been centering him around some new and evil threat from the Remnant, and I'm sure I'm not the only one out there who feels it's been well and truly overdone. I'm sick of chopping down dumb Stormtroopers minute after minute, like it's supposed to be exciting. It's been done over and over again....why keep it going ? This series needs innovation, a wider scope, more indepth gameplay and character advancement. FPS's are great, but repetative ones arent. Sure if this new title is an add-on, then why not. But if it's an entirely new story, why not something new ? Casual gamer or not, Lucasarts make these games to further the Star Wars universe and give Star Wars fans like myself the opportunity to play the role of a Jedi in the SW universe. If they are not making the games so we can do this and enjoy an ongoing series in SW universe, then why in the world do they even bother ?

PS: Luc's right btw, EU is a terrible idea.

JO was set in the EU, so what exactly are you saying ?

happydan
01-25-2003, 08:45 PM
i think a prequel is in order, centering around a child padwan as he/she grows. i dont really mind what era, but it would be cool to have an episode for every 5 years or something, all intertwined stories leading to a climax where they are finally a knight

JDKnite188
01-25-2003, 08:59 PM
JK was set in the EU. Np there.

There shouldn't be an expansion pack. There should just be a worth while JKIII. MotS was an expansion with multiplayer enhancements, new game code elements (cameras, etc.), and player story, but the game was mediocre. Just an expansion.

I also thought of the fluid-saber-mouse thing. Good but slow, laggy (MP), and probably hard to learn. It would be awesome if it could be worked out somehow.

Leave the series as an FPS. Yeah, people buy it for the saber, but even Star Wars is not centered around the stupid saber. And the weapons beside the E-11 should be revamped in the sequel/expansion. They were all mundane. I noticed that the E-11 and Return to Castle Wolfenstein's FG42 are practically the same gun model.

Get rid of the classic Star Wars locales. Nar Shaada and the Valley of the Jedi were the greatest locales in JK. Sulon and Barons Hed gave a kind of comfy feel to them despite the ubiquitous tension. The cargo ship, duels, and Imperial tower were reminders of the Star Wars legacy BUT NOT YOUR STANDARD IMPERIAL BASE LEVELS.

Get rid of Kyle. He is getting old. Good guy but let him rest.

Placing a story during the trilogy would be awesome. Or they could even make a story of the background of JK. I wouldn't mind seeing 8t88, the Dark Gang, Rahn, and the other ole' dudes again. The EU is somewhat unbound and a Yuuzhan Vong thing would be just lilke replacing the Imperials with them. Now we can slaughter hordes of another force.

Why don't we become the Merchant? Bounty Hunter? Runaway political figure. We don't need to be Jedi, but we can encounter them.

happydan
01-25-2003, 09:04 PM
wouldnt that counter the "jedi" knight thing?
my idea is better, i win, case closed.

DeTRiTiC-iQ
01-25-2003, 09:11 PM
Ballistic, you seem obsessed with the idea that the engine IS the game. Half Life was based on Quake, yet it plays nothing like it. Counter-Strike could have been made for Quake, but it was instead made for a heavily tweaked version of the engine that was more suitable for the gameplay.

Doom 3 is going to be slow-paced, if Quake 4 is going to match the success of Quake 3, it needs to be fasted paced. As a result, for a game of the Jedi Knight series' historic pace, a developer will use the Quake 4 code as a base instead of the Doom 3 code. Its just common sense.

Fact: the less changes you have to make to an engine to make the game how you want it, the better.

razorace
01-25-2003, 10:02 PM
In thread in one sentence: We want everything regardless of how possible it actually is. :D

Seriously, I agree with most of the points that the thread starter made, but it's not very likely to happen. Buttonmasher games sell more copies than "simulations". Of course there's exceptions but (from LEC's POV) why risk it and/or go to that effort?

My mod team (Masters of the Force) is actually attempting to do a lot of the things you suggested.

Jolts
01-25-2003, 10:06 PM
someone needs to make a free swing saber system just to put that theory to rest once and forall.

razorace
01-25-2003, 10:17 PM
Yeah, it's been done in "Die by the Sword". It didn't work very well with a keyboard/mouse combo. You couldn't respond fast enough with the mouse to make it FEEL like sword combat.

We have a different concept for controlling the saber in MotF, but that's classified. :D

Unnamed Jed1
01-25-2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Ballistic, you seem obsessed with the idea that the engine IS the game. Half Life was based on Quake, yet it plays nothing like it. Counter-Strike could have been made for Quake, but it was instead made for a heavily tweaked version of the engine that was more suitable for the gameplay.

Doom 3 is going to be slow-paced, if Quake 4 is going to match the success of Quake 3, it needs to be fasted paced. As a result, for a game of the Jedi Knight series' historic pace, a developer will use the Quake 4 code as a base instead of the Doom 3 code. Its just common sense.

Fact: the less changes you have to make to an engine to make the game how you want it, the better.




He’s right. ^

The reason DOOM 3 is going to be slower has nothing to do with engine limitations.
Yes the Alpha was a “rough cut” and will be optimized for better frame rates when it is released.

The slower pace is the development team wanting a “Resident Evil” like feel rather than a “run 90 mph and rocket jump all over the place” feel for the game.

DOOM 3 could run at a fast and frenzied pace like the games in the Quake series but that is not what the developers are aiming for in regards to the atmosphere.

A JK/SW game based on the DOOM 3 engine would simply be amazing.

Most people were taken by the lighting and overall graphics, but what really impressed me was the way objects like boxes and tables had “real world” physics when you interacted with them.
Most of the time in games when you interact with something like that it is simply you moving an object along a set path.
But in that engine the way you can literally have full and total control of the movement of background objects and alter their paths based on the same principals of velocity and angle that applies to the real world is amazing.

This may not seem like much to most of you, but take my word for it; you are going to see some amazing things done by clever programmers with this engine.

razorace
01-26-2003, 12:59 AM
Assuming that the engine is a licensable engine in the first place. It's very possible that Doom 3 is TOO overdriven to be useable for "normal" games. If the game graphics are so high that you can't have more than 5 creatures in a room, the game won't be useable for JK3 (where you get into fights with 20+ people on the screen). PLUS, the 4 player client to client MP will have to be redone into a client/server system by Id for most people to even consider it licensing it.

Sides, all the information on Doom 3 is hype at this point. All the screenshots at this phase of development are specially prepared to LOOK good (and are often doctored by PR departments). Heck, if you looked carefully at the first set of pics in the PC Gamer, you could see that the poly count isn't THAT high (check out the monsters' lower torso/finger area). The pretty appearance of the game is mainly due to an assload of new texture techniques.

P4ulo
01-26-2003, 01:09 AM
Hello??? what u saw of doom 3 engine was leaked alpha, what are u all talking bout? it wasnt even optimized.. quake 4 same thing, wait to see, then u can talk, u are all talking bout an alpha version of an engine that u dont have a clue of how it will end up.
I could be wrong, but i think (if) they will do the sequel or whatever game they will do it their way. Ppl have so many different opinions and desires. Im not sure they will ever listen to any of this sugestions.
I respect other ideas, but please...the majority seem to want to see a movie instead of a game.
And its true if u change all that u dont get a fps u get a rpg thats what u get (i dont like it, but u do, oh well who will they listen then ... no one :))

Rad Blackrose
01-26-2003, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Yea I would like to see vehicle and aircraft like in Halo. Also they need to scrap Kyle and make someone new and have the timeframe set in the Vong invasion. One more thing is, while using force powers lik,e lightning you should be able to use it with one hand and shoot with the other at the same time. Everything else I think is fine.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but last time I checked, Kyle was involved with the whole Vong bit.

razorace
01-26-2003, 01:29 AM
Hello??? what u saw of doom 3 engine was leaked alpha, what are u all talking bout? it wasnt even optimized.. quake 4 same thing, wait to see, then u can talk, u are all talking bout an alpha version of an engine that u dont have a clue of how it will end up.I wasn't talking about the alpha.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but last time I checked, Kyle was involved with the whole Vong bit.The games don't have to follow the EU's storyline. A lot of people don't know who the heck the Vong are. That could translate into fewer game copies sold.. Sides, the Vong present tricky gameplay issues that would be hard to get around.

FK|FallenOne
01-26-2003, 02:05 AM
No one knew who Kyle Katarn and Jan Oors were till the games came out. FYI.

Second, the Doom 3 engine might not be licenseable? WTF are you smoking? The only reason John Carmack made it WAS TO SELL IT OUT! Hence why Doom3 is just the original story with the new graphics engine. It's the same story and linear game. Just with the engine on steroids. Go read the E3 reviews in PCGamer from a few months ago that had the review on the alpha Doom3. It says in it that was Carmack's sole reason for building the engine, to whore it out and make a ton of money.

If it's an expansion they won't change engines.

If it's a new game I'd hope they'd get with Infogrames and Epic and use the UT2K3/Unreal2 engine. It's solid, tested and out to the public already. But with their contract with Activision it's more likely going to be through the Q3 engine still.

Spider AL
01-26-2003, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by BallisticWookiee:
JO was set in the EU, so what exactly are you saying ?

What am I saying? What am I saying? The Expanded Universe is crap, that's what I'm saying! "Sun-crusher?" Please. And don't even get me started on the lameness of the 'Vong. The EU is basically the vile spawn of mediocre sci-fi authors employed at cutdown, hourly rates by LEC to mash their literary gums for about three-hundred pages.

Sure, there are some gems, "Courtship" and the DF novelisations were quite good. But frankly if enough monkeys type away for long enough, they'll produce the complete works of Shakespeare. No, the EU is incontrovertibly crap. Not just from a literary criticism point of view, but from a "faithfulness to the canon" point of view, too.

That part of JO that was EU was laughably feeble. Lightsabre crystals somehow used to imbue Reborn with the powers of the Force? Pull the other one, it has got bells on. Why didn't they just call it "The quest for Vader's magic gauntlets!!!11" and be done with it? Lightsabres aren't powered by the Force, so what do crystals have to do with it? Nothing, that's what.

What was good about JO was the mood and other aspects that mirrored the mood of the original SW trilogy well. The architecture was nicely consistent, the moves were similar, sounds were remeniscent, all owing more to the original trilogy than anything else.

If you want your game to feel like Star Wars, ANH, ESB and ROTJ at a pinch, are the way to go. God help us if the next game feels like Episode One...

Originally posted by BallisticWookiee:
Lucasarts make these games to further the Star Wars universe and give Star Wars fans like myself the opportunity to play the role of a Jedi in the SW universe. If they are not making the games so we can do this and enjoy an ongoing series in SW universe, then why in the world do they even bother ?

Ah, youthful naivete. They do it to make wodges of cash from their unassailable ready-market of fanboys who would buy a Star Wars game even if it was just Bubble-Bobble in a Vader-visaged jewel case. They don't have altruistic motives, as nice as that fantasy would be.

I don't buy SW games. :) I played JK once, loved the feeling, bought it, played it, bought JO, played that. It's best to buy a game because you like the game, mate, not because you'd like the game to be something it's not.

Originally posted by JDKnite188:
Get rid of Kyle. He is getting old. Good guy but let him rest.

He's barely middle-aged. Can you say "Alec Guinness?" What about "Christopher Lee?" or "Yoda?"

Besides the fact that Jedi become more powerful and k3wL with age, Kyle's staple now. A Dark Forces game without Katarn would be like a Tomb-Raider game without Lara Croft... in other words, stupid. Sure, petition LEC to make a Jedi FPS without Kyle... but make sure you suggest a new title for the series while you're at it. ;) DF and JK are both Kyle's.

Originally posted by JDKnite188:
Why don't we become the Merchant? Bounty Hunter? Runaway political figure. We don't need to be Jedi, but we can encounter them.

I have an idea... The next Dark Forces/Jedi Knight game should be about a heroic Waiter on Drazen Isle!

Star Wars Galaxies is the game for you, I feel. JK/DF series = Jedi-based.

razorace
01-26-2003, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by FK|FallenOne
Second, the Doom 3 engine might not be licenseable? WTF are you smoking? The only reason John Carmack made it WAS TO SELL IT OUT! Hence why Doom3 is just the original story with the new graphics engine. It's the same story and linear game. Just with the engine on steroids. Go read the E3 reviews in PCGamer from a few months ago that had the review on the alpha Doom3. It says in it that was Carmack's sole reason for building the engine, to whore it out and make a ton of money.

So why did he flat out molest the multiplayer code? You can't do squat with client/client! I don't care HOW pretty it looks, if the multiplayer is screwed up, the multiplayer is screwed up.

I wasn't implying that Id wasn't going to license it, I just meant that it's not going to be attractive license for at least a year.

And I agree with Spider AL. Most of the EU is entertaining, but still crap. Having the constant "The New Republic is DOOMED!" stuff isn't exactly what Lucas had in mind.

Reborn Outcast
01-26-2003, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Lightsabres aren't powered by the Force, so what do crystals have to do with it?

Umm but they're powered by the crystals. So the Remnant thought that they had some sort of power to them and that they could infuse the force into them. IT DIDN'T WORK!!! Thats when Kyle led them to the Valley of the Jedi which gave anyone who stepped in or whatever, force powers or boosted their force powers.

DeTRiTiC-iQ
01-26-2003, 09:04 AM
NJO is blasphemous to Salavatore fans everywhere. I know enough of the Vong to get the idea that the people in charge of the EU said "hey, this Salvatore guy knows how to write convincing evil bad guys, lets get him to rip off his entire Drow of the Underdark storyline and use it in Star Wars".

Smood
01-26-2003, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Spider AL
You're describing a beat-em-up game here. Sounds awful, slow, unwieldy and tedious. DF, JK and JO were all great fast-paced FPS games. I say, go onward in that tradition.


NO NOT TEDIUS AT ALL! I understand this game is a fps, but it is unique in that it focuses a lot of its core gameplay against the saber and dueling. Why not elaborate on this unique aspect of this STAR WARS fps. Fast paced games are great, but making dueling a bit more true to the movies would increase the game's uniqueness and value.

Let's face it, there are not that many players who hate star wars who are playing this game, so exemplify the highlights of this game that are unique and attract the audience which currently plays it!



It's an FPS. It's an FPS. I realise this will not make ANY impact at all, but I have to say it: It's a particular style of game. Change that style, and you have a different type of game. Petition LEC to make a Jedi-based beat-em-up if you wish... But leave the sanctity of the only decent Star-Wars-based FPS series alone.



Refer to above. BEAT - EM - UP? Obiously you do not understand my vision.


[B]
So, you hit someone in the foot, and their head falls off.

:nut:

I think this is a terrible, nay, abysmal idea. I would recommend in its place, a system whereby if the sabre contacts the neck or head of the model, the head is severed. If the sabre contacts the thigh of the model, the leg falls off. An area-based damage system is long overdue.
[B]


I'am sorry you did not interpret what I said properly, this system you are describing is what I was suggesting. Only that if a saber passes through any main body part it should decapitate immediately.


More to come.

Spider AL
01-26-2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Smood:
I'am sorry you did not interpret what I said properly, this system you are describing is what I was suggesting. Only that if a saber passes through any main body part it should decapitate immediately.

No, I'm sorry you didn't interpret what you said correctly. To "decapitate" means to sever the head. You can't "decapitate someone's leg." :tsk:

Unless your head actually sprouts out of your leg, that is. Possible.

Originally posted by Smood:
Fast paced games are great, but making dueling a bit more true to the movies would increase the game's uniqueness and value.

No! All it would increase is the number of fanboys who hijack games and servers so that they can spend half an hour swivelling and bowing to each other before an unimpressively skilless duel, while a huge crowd of fanboys pretending to be Chiss waiters watches them!

Jedi Knight games are fast-paced. Live with it.

Originally posted by Smood:
Refer to above. BEAT - EM - UP? Obiously you do not understand my vision.

Nah, I don't think YOU understand your "vision." Not only is it a dream, not to mention a netcode-programmer's nightmare, but its only possible purpose would be to assist fanboys in their eternal quest to pretend to be REAL Jedi. It bears no relation to good FPS gameplay.

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast:
So the Remnant thought that they had some sort of power to them and that they could infuse the force into them. IT DIDN'T WORK!!! Thats when Kyle led them to the Valley

Nonsense! Have you forgotten the big green "force crystals" strapped to the chest of every Shadowtrooper? If the crystals are what "didn't work" then what were they doing strapped to the chest of every tin-can in a five-mile radius? If the crystals are what "didn't work" then why do they push your Force meter to full when you pick one up? You want to know why? It's the stupid, cheesey EU rearing its ugly, plot-device riddled head again. THAT'S why.

There have always been some silly fools who believe that Lightsabres are powered by the force, and apparently some of them snuck into the story-meetings in Raven's offices prior to conceptualisation.

Hekx
01-26-2003, 12:09 PM
Well JO2 is going to most probably be a different story and a new wig for Katarn.

It seems, from what I've read, some people want the next game to be more RP-based, while others seem to want it to be a general Q3- 'frag dem mofos'.

I wouldn't mind if the Q3 engine was used. I just want to see good features improved apon, and new features implemented.

But at the moment, I'm quite content with JK2.
I think JK2 still has potential and I don't see it dying for a while.
I can't wait to see what JO2 does about the 'fanboys' and 'gamers'.

And here's an earlier post I did about JK3 'stuff' I wanted included. :DOriginally posted by Hčkx Nňxú
Hopefully they'll add character customization for MP.
Make SP sabre combat either the same or similar to MP.
Kyle can either be a NPC or dead, and you can play as an apprentice or child of Kyle.
Manual blocking would be good, maybe a meter to control the force of deflecting.
I would like to see faster force regen / more force for Masters and less for Initiates.
Some RP elements would be nice.
SP should be more SW-like with the threat of the Darkside meaning you can fall to the Darkside.
If you do enough negative actions, your allignment will drop below average and eventually you will become a dark jedi.
Alternative endings.
Custom hilt creation / hilt selection.
Maybe some more sabre colours. (Silver / White / Light Blue)
Tons of other features I've heard people speak of, aswell as ones included in the JKIII poll. :)

I personally find a mix of RP and gaming to be quite satisfying for a SW game. :)

P4ulo
01-26-2003, 12:18 PM
I´m sorry but all i see in this thread is speculation and some rpgers, bye

Krelia
01-26-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by P4ulo
I´m sorry but all i see in this thread is speculation and some rpgers, bye

werd

Reborn Outcast
01-26-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by P4ulo
I´m sorry but all i see in this thread is speculation and some rpgers, bye

No one asked you to post.

Toonces
01-26-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by P4ulo
I´m sorry but all i see in this thread is speculation and some rpgers, bye

Who cares???

It's a thread about ideas/speculation. Nobody forced you to read this thread

JDKnite188
01-26-2003, 02:28 PM
When I said Kyle is getting old, I didn't mean literally old. I don't care if Kyle is a senior citizen. His character story is kind of being a bit stretched.

I was stupid to say "Lets be a [insert non-Jedi occupation] in a Jedi Knight game". I do have a question. Raven miserably tried to make decency in getting Kyle "disconnected from the force" so that we could all play to learn the force again. What is next for Kyle? Does anybody know? Does anybody even have a good story idea for the next game?

Personally, I am a mix of gamer and fanboy, but more gamer. When I played JO MP I ran with my saber against people with guns, because I thought that I was invincible. The saber was a shield to me. All it didn't block was explosive weaponry, shells, and the force: exactly what I was up against. Stupid me.

My "fanboy" persona just wants me to ask what will a JKIII be? Yeah, no jedi would be dumb, but is it just me or is it getting old running at people without sabers, hacking them, keep going, using force powers, and being unstoppable unless a n00b, arrogant dark jedi takes me on???

I think I go sleep and leave it to Raven, LEC, or whomever is going to determine what will come.

:ewok: Yub Yub!

Spider AL
01-26-2003, 03:10 PM
His character story is kind of being a bit stretched.

That's because of bad writing. MotS was actually better character development for Kyle than JO was.

Does anybody even have a good story idea for the next game?

I do, as a matter of fact.

I wish they'd pay me to write for them!

Perhaps I should get published first, and then ask for a job writing "believable" EU storylines. Who knows.

Until then, they, and you, and all of us, will have to do without me, the saviour of the SW canon. :naughty: Seriously though, I think even... even... someone crap and feeble, could pull a better storyline out of his/her bottom, than the ones they've been peddling in the EU.

Jeff 42
01-26-2003, 03:36 PM
"NJO is blasphemous to Salavatore fans everywhere."

:rolleyes: What, like Salvatore is some kind of god? The man can't write worth crap. The AotC novelization is one of the most poorly written books I've ever read. The NJO and Salvatore are both terrible. They're good matches for each other.

So, yeah, I agree with the people who think bringing the Vong into the DF series is a bad idea.

happydan
01-26-2003, 04:32 PM
i think jango has shown that mercs can be a match for jedi. they could make for interesting rocketpacked opponents... or even a variation of mercs.

or...

why not have the game set during the mandelorian wars, to integrate with the forthcoming kotor game? or is that too "fanboy"?

personally, i think all that bowing crap is lame. im a fan of the movies and some of tha EU, but jedi just dont act like that. and sith CERTAINLY dont... do what gets the job done, within the mandates of the jedi order. so, all that bowing stuff isnt "fanboy", just lame.

Reborn Outcast
01-26-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Perhaps I should get published first, and then ask for a job writing "believable" EU storylines. Who knows.

Thats not possible because of the setting and everything. None of the SW stories or movies are believable. :D

Spider AL
01-26-2003, 04:50 PM
all that bowing stuff isnt "fanboy", just lame.

Lame and fanboy go together, Dan mate. We're all SW fans to some degree I have no doubt, I'm a SW fan too, but I'm definitely not a fanboy. Different breed, different whine, different rules.

why not have the game set during the mandelorian wars, to integrate with the forthcoming kotor game? or is that too "fanboy"?

As long as you play a Jedi, and as long as the mood and atmosphere was similar to the Original trilogy, you could set it anywhere. EU tends to be crap however, and I'd rather play as Kyle: it's his series now. DF/JK without Kyle would be like Raiders without Indy, like Tomb Raider without the Croft woman, like... I dunno, like a Thomas Harris serial killer novel without Lecter. It'd be lacking that special something. What Kyle needs is a good plot. :)

Thats not possible because of the setting and everything. None of the SW stories or movies are believable.

Hence the quotation marks, mate. :D "Believable" in that my story ideas conform to initial SW trilogy canon. The original trilogy is really all that's good about Star Wars. Prequels and novels have been pretty crap, really.

happydan
01-26-2003, 05:09 PM
i cant agree with you that you need kyle for JK games... i think they are running out of story arcs with him. they got in a rut, and are running out of ways to get him out of them...

Reborn Outcast
01-26-2003, 05:17 PM
Yea Kyles gone, scrap him and make someone new. How about they set it in the Exar Kun time frame, that would be pretty neat. And their would be two storylines.

1. You're a Dark Jedi serving Exar Kun.

2. You're a Jedi and trying to defeat Kun.


That would make it interesting.

P4ulo
01-26-2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Toonces
Who cares???

It's a thread about ideas/speculation. Nobody forced you to read this thread
Yes thats right no one used grip on me.
But as u can see like smood said:
"I hope I can send this information in to some authority at activision or lucas to look over" this info is supposed to be sent to someone. Now try reading the whole thread, what if dont agree with your opinions, will they make a version just for my needs? cmon be real. They would ask if they wanted some feedback on this.

Smood
01-26-2003, 06:18 PM
SPIDER AL... your entire concept of 'fanboys' is ludicrous and dare I say, stupid. Players of this game aren't your average fps'er you are trigger happy (which are fine people in their own respect). These players are people who enjoy fps's but have come for the STAR WARS theme, idea, and concept. Satisfying these players is what will allow the game to accel.

Originally posted by Spider AL

Jedi Knight games are fast-paced. Live with it.


This is perhaps the most idiotic, ignorant and detesting comment I have ever heard concerning the advancement of a game. Things can change, code can change, have a open mind and who knows what will happen.

If Carmack had your personality we would still be in 2D.

Smood
01-26-2003, 06:18 PM
SPIDER AL... your entire concept of 'fanboys' is ludicrous and dare I say, stupid. Players of this game aren't your average fps'er who are trigger happy (which are fine people in their own respect). These players are people who enjoy fps's but have come for the STAR WARS theme, idea, and concept. Satisfying these players is what will allow the game to accel.

Originally posted by Spider AL

Jedi Knight games are fast-paced. Live with it.


This is perhaps the most idiotic, ignorant and detesting comment I have ever heard concerning the advancement of a game. Things can change, code can change, have a open mind and who knows what will happen.

If Carmack had your personality we would still be in 2D.

FK|FallenOne
01-26-2003, 07:18 PM
FYI: whoever said the idea about centering the plot around the "mandalorian wars and the time of KOTOR". Well, first off, the story arc of KOTOR takes place 1000 years before TPM supposedly. Unless they changed the story arc, it's nowhere near the time of the prequel movies much less Kyle Katarn's life time. Just some FYI.

DeTRiTiC-iQ
01-26-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Jeff 42
"NJO is blasphemous to Salavatore fans everywhere."

:rolleyes: What, like Salvatore is some kind of god? The man can't write worth crap. The AotC novelization is one of the most poorly written books I've ever read. The NJO and Salvatore are both terrible. They're good matches for each other.

So, yeah, I agree with the people who think bringing the Vong into the DF series is a bad idea.

You talk about Salvatore like he only writes Star Wars books. Fact of the matter is his *worst* Forgotten Realms books, which are still considered enjoyable reading material, were written during a personal crisis for him. However his earlier and later FR books have been nothing short of inspirational. The Drizzt Do'Urden saga is infinately more readable that most other fantasy books, you see I care for the story rather than literature prowess.

Anywho, Dark Forces IS Kyle Katarn, if you want a different character then ask for a different series. Dark Forces is Kyle's story. Mara Jade had a brief period as the focal character, but ultimately it was still about Kyle.

I would like to see the concept of an epic story return to games though, JK had it, JK2 didn't.

Reborn Outcast
01-26-2003, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Anywho, Dark Forces IS Kyle Katarn, if you want a different character then ask for a different series. Dark Forces is Kyle's story. Mara Jade had a brief period as the focal character, but ultimately it was still about Kyle.

Then I say get a new series cause he's getting to old. I want someone new and fresh.

Hekx
01-26-2003, 10:03 PM
Kyle could indeed be apart of the Story.. but playing the game from a younger child / padawan of Kyle Katarn may bring a new audience towards the game.

Please don't bring back Desann!
Maybe Tavion can be in the next game, but a Mandalorian-type merc / bounty hunter would be a good boss to fight. Maybe even 3 / 4 encounters in earlier levels.

The timeframe for JK2 does seem good, and different. I personally would like to see an expansion pack instead of an entirely new game.

I personally haven't read much EU, I don't know a lot about EU, so I think bringing too much EU into the JK games would be a bad idea. JK2 leads on after ROTJ, and should continue to do so.

No-one can get rid of the Stormies! Never! :D

P4ulo
01-27-2003, 02:14 AM
I think the sequel should have kyle once again but shaved, what u guys think?

razorace
01-27-2003, 04:55 AM
shaved where?! :shock:

Sounds Risky
01-27-2003, 05:30 AM
His head of course. He could be Q-Ball Katarn.

Spider AL
01-27-2003, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by Smood:
SPIDER AL... your entire concept of 'fanboys' is ludicrous and dare I say, stupid. Players of this game aren't your average fps'er you are trigger happy (which are fine people in their own respect). These players are people who enjoy fps's but have come for the STAR WARS theme, idea, and concept. Satisfying these players is what will allow the game to accel.

New Smood, New Smood, so good he posted twice.

Yeah, I thought you were a fanboy. Thanks for proving it. Fanboys know less than nothing about what makes a good game, they're only interested in "let's pretend."

Originally posted by Smood:
have a open mind


Translation: "agree with me or else u lame chicken cheetor!!!11"

Originally posted by Smood:
This is perhaps the most idiotic, ignorant and detesting comment I have ever heard

Ironic0rz.

Go away, or I'll decapitate your leg. :naughty:

Originally posted by happydan:
i cant agree with you that you need kyle for JK games... i think they are running out of story arcs with him. they got in a rut, and are running out of ways to get him out of them...

Running out? Can you run out of imagination and/or creativity? Mark my words, one good writer is all the DF series needs to become even greater.

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast:
Then I say get a new series cause he's getting to old. I want someone new and fresh.

Well hey, I'm all for new series, petition LEC for a new series. I'll still hold out for DF4 though. ;)

ryudom
01-27-2003, 12:22 PM
Go away, or I'll decapitate your leg.

lol, your right on all counts heh. about katarn though, i have to say i didn't like his oldness in JO, but thats probably just because of the way they rendered him. the katarn of JK seemed way more athletic and imposing, i like that model alot more then the JK2 one. alot of the characters in JK2 seem kind of feable accually...

and FK|FallenOne, i know that KOTOR is set thousands of years back, i was just saying it would be cool to have a starwars FPS in that time

JDKnite188
01-27-2003, 04:39 PM
How about involving a story of Morgan Katarn and Qu Rahn! That would be good stuff.

Save me Spider Al!

JDKnite188
01-27-2003, 04:41 PM
How about involving a story of Morgan Katarn and Qu Rahn! That would be good stuff.

Save me Spider Al!

P4ulo
01-27-2003, 05:34 PM
And we could have Jan skinheaded

Reborn Outcast
01-27-2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by JDKnite188
How about involving a story of Morgan Katarn and Qu Rahn! That would be good stuff.

Save me Spider Al!


Thats a pretty good idea. Or we could have Jan and Kyle have a child and that child has to train and all that then Kyle dies or something by some mysterious and his son has to go out and find out who did it... Well its a start.

Spider AL
01-27-2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by JDKnite188:
How about involving a story of Morgan Katarn and Qu Rahn! That would be good stuff. Save me Spider Al!

You don't need me for that mate, William Dietz covered Morgan pretty well in the Dark Forces novelisations... Rahn, hmm if he couldn't defeat Jerec after years of training and Kyle could after two weeks of training, I think he might be a step down from old Kyle in terms of skill and ability...

No, I think if there's another Dark Forces game, it'd have to have Kyle in it. So why don't we try to think about what a separate series could contain?

Hmm, let me think, what would be an original subject for a new Jedi-based FPS series, unrelated to DF... Well there are some easy rules one can think of:


Player must play a Jedi.
Player must wield a Lightsabre for a large portion of the game, if not all.
There must be Sith opponents to deal with, not much point in a sabre if there are no Sith to fight.
Wait a minute...


I have an idea. LEC should start another game series about the career of a Sith. It could be set in any time-period then, and he could combat Jedi opponents. That'd be twisted enough to be interesting.

How about a player-responsive character development like in the original JK, where the player's actions dictate the character's alignment? If the player doesn't kill a lot of innocents, the story could evolve so that the Sith is turned to the light side slowly, etc. Things like that. That might be good.

Unnamed Jed1
01-27-2003, 06:54 PM
They should hire the team who wrote the scripts for the Porky's movies to do the story.

Spider AL
01-27-2003, 07:08 PM
They should hire the team who wrote the scripts for the Porky's movies to do the story.

And,.. it would still turn out better than Jedi Outcast's plot. ;)

The Truthful Liar
01-27-2003, 08:24 PM
Guys can you please cut down on the useless suggestions like "Jan should be a skinhead", "Porky's script writers should do Jk2" and repeating the same/similar idea posted previously or just writing blatant 'no-brainer' posts which adds nothing to the thread. This is ultimately known as spam, if some of you can't hold yourself then we, the moderators of this forum, will have to take action.

Cheers

DeTRiTiC-iQ
01-27-2003, 09:31 PM
and here was me thinking it was humor...

Naphtali
01-27-2003, 10:42 PM
The force power that is needed most is to manipulate objects, with telekenetics.
As far as lightning, grip those if you so called perfectionist really wanted to be true then most jedi would not have knowledge of the powers revealed in the sith holocron

Naphtali
01-27-2003, 10:57 PM
The force power that is needed most is to manipulate objects, with telekenetics.
Also they should make more breakable entites in the map, or objects to manipulate.
As far as lightning, grip those if you so called perfectionist really wanted to be true then most jedi would not have knowledge of the powers revealed in the sith holocron only to masters.
Another power should be force sensing, maybe a smalll reading or something like momentary (second long) glow from that area, and the degree if the force is significantly strong with them.
Tavion seeing that you beat her alredy it wouldn't make much sense to build her as a big boss, again if you were all as realistic as you pump up to be then Tavion wouldn't just become suddenly more powerful from a vallay, or a holocron, but it's the knowledge and how it's used, and the years of training.

Saber combat needs to stay simplistic but right, one style should be more for defence, another speed, another power, oops, they already have that.
So the combat should redifine some animations,and they should take a look at the Aotc official dictionary on saber fighting.
Change the angle on certain attacks manually during attacks would be difficult considering its not an analog controller unless they enable it.
ALso i think a lock-on enemy system would be good to considering all the jumping and movement you have to do during duels. Manual blocking is needed

Next point, never have jedi jumped around so much, in midair do a flip back to recover and save themselves, i think they should ground them more to an extent

Any other ideas

Naphtali
01-27-2003, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by Smood


|= [THE CHANGES REQUIRED ]======================================

============
| SABER COMBAT |
============

This is probably the biggest area of change that could make the game simply fantastic. The existing combat was definitely a huge step up from Dark Forces 2, stances were a fairly creative idea and helped the game. Another leap in combat is necessary.

The
============
| MOVEMENT |
============

To follow the movies more closely, and to make battling more exciting movement in jediknight needs a large revamp. Instead of being quite fps like, it should be more delicate, and intricate. Some solid suggestions follow.

During saber combat individuals are able to move left and right in a very short time, this leads to a cheap fps game/feel not suitable for a type of combat game like jedi outcast. Instead by the same change as above, making the stepping fluid and organic (have movement slower, and better blended) would bring a much greater feel of true saber battling, and movie/real life movement.

One key here is making movement slower relative to the world and relative to other individuals.


============
| THE FORCE |
============


============
| THE SABER |
============


Again in this category achieving a fluid blended feel is important. Jerking from one animation to another is the one thing that must be avoided.

FK|FallenOne
01-28-2003, 12:07 AM
Legion STFU they can make any suggestions they want. It's called sarcasm and humor obviously two human traits you lack because you're a brainwashed robotic fanboy.

Back to topic?

Why would anyone want a game against Exar Kun or of Morgan and Rahn. All their stories have been told and are set. Kun in the EU and Rahn and Morgan in DF2.

Sounds Risky
01-28-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by FK|FallenOne
Legion STFU they can make any suggestions they want. It's called sarcasm and humor obviously two human traits you lack because you're a brainwashed robotic fanboy.

Whoa, calm down, he's just trying to do his job by keeping the forums low on spam, which is certainly understandable. I just thought we needed something to lighten the mood when I posted my little comment before.

As for suggestions, let's see a single player game that is actually compelling to play. And a better villain. And get rid of the ridiculous parts of levels, like the puzzle room on the Doomgiver with the bottomless pit. Now that was just stupid.

FK|FallenOne
01-28-2003, 02:25 AM
He's not a moderator for this forum. It's not his job. So do some research and know what you're talking about before you assume anything. Ya know what they say about those who ASSUME!

Smood
01-28-2003, 02:36 AM
Well since SPIDER AL's response to my comments were less then intelligent I'll just leave them at that.

All I'am looking for in future installations is a game where I look at jedi in the game, and they actually look like they are jedi. What I mean by that is I should be able to easily tell a skilled player from a noob through points and fighting technique.

I want people to be afraid of the saber not go barreling into other jedi swinging madly. So when you see to jedi fighting in ANY GAMETYPE, it looks like the duel is actually taking skill and effort not just a 'intuitive' button mash.

At the same time the component of 'gunners' should also be strong. Having people running around blasting jedi should be essential. Taking these gunners away is taking away from the game as well as jedi, since this is half of what a jedi deals with (mercenaries). The only change I suggest here are making guns that have reduced splash damage, instead (if manual blocking with 'sense' or 'force' indicators is employes) have faster blasting weapons that will be difficult to defend against for a long time. The big energy impact weapons are OK, but put a delay on them so there is not too much spamming.

There definately should be a balance.

Reborn Outcast
01-28-2003, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by FK|FallenOne
He's not a moderator for this forum. It's not his job. So do some research and know what you're talking about before you assume anything. Ya know what they say about those who ASSUME!

Dude calm down. We could always report that to a mod that does watch this forum or even a supermod so...

Spider AL
01-28-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Smood:
Well since SPIDER AL's response to my comments were less then intelligent I'll just leave them at that.

Ohhh, back for more eh? You asked for it, and this time I'll disembowel your arm too!

:naughty:

A word to the wise, before you question the intelligence of others you might want to learn the arcane skill of forming a coherent sentence. Kthxbye.

And yes, I realise English is probably not your first language, but then I don't go around trying to debate in Ancient Greek, do I? :D

Originally posted by Smood:
All I'am looking for in future installations is a game where I look at jedi in the game, and they actually look like they are jedi. What I mean by that is I should be able to easily tell a skilled player from a noob through points and fighting technique.

How silly. You can always tell a skilled player from a "noob" (whatever a "n00b!!111" is) by "points". If you consider yourself skilled but consistently have a lower score than other people, then newsflash, you need to reevaluate your opinion of your own skill level.

Those with the most skill, win. Those with less skill, lose. It's that simple.

Originally posted by Smood:
Taking these gunners away is taking away from the game as well as jedi, since this is half of what a jedi deals with (mercenaries).

Like all fanboys before you, you persist in separating the JK world into two camps: "Jedi" and "Mercenaries." The JK games however, are about Jedi who also use guns. Get that through your head.

Reborn Outcast
01-28-2003, 11:22 AM
Sorry for being a n0ob (:D ) but there are points on Outcast online? Or am I mistaken and you're talking about something else?

Spider AL
01-28-2003, 11:26 AM
Sorry for being a n0ob (:D ) but there are points on Outcast online?

Ohoh, yes indeed. The type of points you get for killing people. Lots of people. WODGES of people. Something I know an awful lot about, mind you. Hurhurhur.

:sign2:

(edit)
Note, Spider AL is bragging. The "sign2" smiley is meant to be representative of his fabulous record on paper. This has been a public announcement by Spider AL's PR department.
(/edit)

ryudom
01-28-2003, 12:08 PM
jeez Spider Al and Smood, get along :)

Spider your right about some things but smood does have some valid points, like the saber should be feared a little more then it is now, which could be done with higher damage first of all. it'd be cool if there was another type of force speed too where you can pretty much explode forward for a short burst, and being able to lunge or swing at the same time.

also, i think smood was implying that there should be more balance between guns and sabers, even if you can use both. guess thats the same thing as the whole "fearing the saber" though. right now its pretty much just a sheild.

Reborn Outcast
01-28-2003, 12:26 PM
Hey Spider where would I find that... if there even is a record?

Oh and I went into this FFA game and a ton of people were walking around with no lightsabers and saying things like "how many I serve you?" I killed em all, got 100 kills and then they kicked me :)

ryudom
01-28-2003, 01:17 PM
do you mean a record like on a server? cause i'm pretty sure your not talking about score/kills per game are you (like with the tab button?) ? anyway some servers record all the kills and deaths, i've only seen a couple duel servers do it thus far but i'm sure there are many others.

Reborn Outcast
01-28-2003, 02:30 PM
yea i know about the tab button but is it possible to check it on a server?

SPY_jmr1
01-28-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by FK|FallenOne
He's not a moderator for this forum. It's not his job. So do some research and know what you're talking about before you assume anything. Ya know what they say about those who ASSUME!

Dude calm down. We could always report that to a mod that does watch this forum or even a supermod so...

actually...

ONLY supermods run this forum.

including me.

please, tell me to STFU, I dare you.

ohwait, you cant... this is locked.

FK|FallenOne: if you do not stop and extract your head from places, and think before speaking, you might not like what is coming to you.

AB_Legion may not be a moderator for THIS forum, but he IS a moderator for LFN.

however, I AM a moderator for this forum.

you WILL respect us.

you seem to think that you may say whatever you wish, because a moderator is not from/for this forum.

shail I call Boba Rhett in here, to see what a funny guy you are? he wont mind at all, he's from GeeBee after all.

ohyeah, that ADMINISTRATOR thingy...

this thread is closed. anyone is free to create a replacement, but please note, it will be closely watched. the thread's concept was fine, but the amount of excess posting was troubling.

:|