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C'jais
01-26-2003, 04:40 PM
I know of this Jack Chick dude only because I'm interested in roleplaying (pen 'n paper, the real deal), and he is one of the ongoing jokes in that community. Why? Because he thinks roleplaying is satanic. He's made several cartoons depicting his "Holier than thou" Christian characters saving desillusioned roleplayers.

But this has nothing to do with roleplaying. This is just too absurd for me. I was damn near falling off my chair laughing while reading this bullsh*t he's now made.

What do you think of this? (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5020/5020_01.asp?FROM=bibleseries)

Reborn Outcast
01-26-2003, 05:09 PM
Cjais why do you enjoy posting things about Christianity that make you laugh? Do you enjoy beating down Christianity? I didn't find it funny at all.

In fact thats the way many people are saved (not the beating up but the person talking to them about Jesus)

C'jais
01-26-2003, 05:18 PM
Because this 'tard apparently doesn't know anything about Islam.

Did you notice which compelling "arguments" he used to persuade Omar? God loves you, Allah does not. How clever.

It says riiight here in the Bible that only Jesus can save you, and only He can forgive your sins.

So, when did the Bible become fact, when did people fall for these absurd statements, and when did Jesus have monopoly on saving people?

Reborn Outcast
01-26-2003, 05:26 PM
I just don't understand why practically every post you do put in here is bashing Christianity.

And Cjais yes he is right about Islam... Allah is depicted "as a severe judge and is not depicted as loving."

C'jais
01-26-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
I just don't understand why practically every post you do put in here is bashing Christianity.

Get your facts straight. And don't evade the subject.

And Cjais yes he is right about Islam... Allah is depicted "as a severe judge and is not depicted as loving."

Where did you get this? Your "handy online guide to religions different from Christianity"?

I could say exactly the same for the Christian god.

Reborn Outcast
01-26-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Cjais
And don't evade the subject.

I didn't think there was one... but if there was then... I didn't think that cartoon was funny at all.

El Sitherino
01-26-2003, 05:55 PM
im along with cjais. this dude doesnt know **** about islam or anything. if im not mistaken isnt he the man that said islam trains kids to kill americans from birth? anways. i agree with cjais. as usual because hes rational. if only he ran for president of the US.

Reborn Outcast
01-26-2003, 06:15 PM
Ah Cjais nevermind. Now that I see what you're saying he is being pretty extreme in that cartoon. My mistake.

Breton
01-26-2003, 06:33 PM
That cartoon was so horrible that you can't even laugh of it! It was such an insult to Islam, and not only that, it was also bad christianity-propaganda.

The guy who made this is a real maniac, and a shame for all the christians in the world.

Breton
01-26-2003, 06:55 PM
Or, you could simply look at this:

http://www.chick.com/catalog/comics/0106.asp

How can anyone be allowed to sell such crap?

C'jais
01-26-2003, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Or, you could simply look at this:

http://www.chick.com/catalog/comics/0106.asp

How can anyone be allowed to sell such crap?

I'll be damned if I didn't feel like busting a cap in his ass when I read that.

"This comic proves that the "science" of evolution can only be labeled as misleading theory. Many are being brainwashed in the schools and through the media into believing the Bible is false and that evolution is a scientific fact. Now it's time they are told the truth!"

I've seen better evidence for creationism being presented in this forum.

It's not the point he's trying to make that bothers me. It's the cartoon, happy-ending, morally superior, bunnies-and-flowers-way he does it. I hate him now.

El Sitherino
01-26-2003, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by Cjais
I've seen better evidence for creationism being presented in this forum. thats pretty sad. that people at these forums give better evidence than a quote professional.

obi
01-26-2003, 09:05 PM
Even though I am a firm believer in the Christian ways, Role Playing is NOT satanic.

Thats just that.


However, there are some follies in the cartoon. Such as the Islamic,Muslim whatever he was, saying that he wouldn't have helped the christian if the roles were reversed. Ahem. He would have. The Muslim religion does not teach to hate everyone and not help them if they need it.


The guy who portrayed the Christian did it well, however. When it came the time to minister to someone, he did it.

Redwing
01-26-2003, 10:01 PM
Oh yay. Jack Chick.

He is a sad, strange little man, and he has my pity. ;)

I would take most of the things he says about Christianity with a very large grain of salt. Although obi can tell you that in the example you have, the actions of the Christian were accurate.

But as a Christian I find his tracts offensive to read (because of the impression it gives of us people like you, Cjais), and as an artist I find his art offensive to look at. ;)

matt--
01-26-2003, 10:15 PM
I think this guy needs to be force fed the movie Dogma. It actually has some quality stuff in there...better than his arguments anyway.

The whole ideas instead of beliefs thing got to me, and I totally agree with the structure of religion damaging what lies at its base.

ShadowTemplar
01-27-2003, 06:09 AM
Like C'Jais said: That guy is a joke. And a bad one at that. His style is most similiar to what you see in old DDR schoolbooks (fact). He's a prime example of Christianity.

Anyway, this (http://www.theescapist.com/basic_gaming_faq.htm#badthings) is why he's wrong about RPG (amongst other reasons). For those of you who think that RPG is the work of Lucifer, Slanesh, ect: Look and learn. For those who do not: Have a good laugh.

Luc Solar
01-27-2003, 12:59 PM
ARG!

ARGGH!

:swear: :swear: :swear:

This reminds me of a creationist-comic I read a while ago at work. I couldn't get anything done that day because it simply stunned me with it's stupidity. I was too pissed to to be mad.

I can not believe the crap they're trying to pull! :mad:

If someone knows where I can find this particular cartoon again, please let me know or post it here. Here's the scenario:

A ugly bald fat sweaty professor is keeping a biology lecture when suddenly a beautiful blonde bright-eyed young man stands up and humiliates him and his ridiculous evolution-theories.

A moment later all the 100 students that first laughed at him are all like: "OOH You are sooo right! How dumb we were believing in these silly theories! Tell me more about Jesus! Please tell us more about God oh you handsome blonde young man you!"

Luc Solar
01-27-2003, 01:06 PM
I want these books!!!!!!!

http://www.chick.com/catalog/comics/0115.asp


http://www.chick.com/catalog/comics/0110.asp

:rolleyes:

Luc Solar
01-27-2003, 01:39 PM
I'm not sure if I can control myself so I'll just say it quickyl and move on to other things. Thinking about this makes me want to tear my hair out.

check out these links.

Here is why Islam is wrong and Christianity is right:

http://www.chick.com/information/religions/islam/fallacies.asp

Can you believe this:

Since Islam came along many centuries after Christianity, Islam has the burden of proof and not Christianity. The Bible tests and judges the Qur'an. When the Bible and The Qur'an contradict each other, the Bible must logically be given first place as the older authority. The Qur'an is in error until it proves itself.

Some Muslims violate the principle of historical precedent by asserting that Islam does not have the burden of proof and that the Qur'an judges the Bible.

How wasted does a person have to be in order to agree with that?! I am amazed.

Another one:

http://www.chick.com/information/religions/islam/errors.asp

Here we see that Islam is wrong because we can prove SCIENTIFICALLY (don't even get me started on this one..) that the Qur'an has one error in it.

(The mistake was based on the erroneous assumption that the earth was flat. The authors of the Qur'an did not know that the earth was a sphere which revolved around the sun.)

ARG!

Breton
01-27-2003, 02:07 PM
Ah, it gets worse, people:

http://www.chick.com/bc/1997/witchcraftmasonry.asp?FROM=Masonryinfo

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

http://www.chick.com/reading/books/204/0204_10.asp

The devil is using many different tools today to trick young people into riding the fast lane down the stairway to hell.

One of the most dangerous and widespread of all those tools is his fantasy role playing game, Dungeons and Dragons.

Literally millions of young people are unknowingly participating in genuine occult practices and opening the doors for demons to enter their bodies through this seemingly innocent game.

By the time they find out they were hood-winked, it's too late. They have taken that last step down the stairway to hell and are greeted by the engulfing flames.

:rofl::rofl: That's so ridiculous!

Kstar__2
01-27-2003, 02:08 PM
here i was thinking it was about chicks.....:rolleyes:


and i didn't get the comic either:p

obi
01-27-2003, 05:15 PM
One of the most dangerous and widespread of all those tools is his fantasy role playing game, Dungeons and Dragons

Excuse me if I mess my pants whilest laughing. :)

Reborn Outcast
01-27-2003, 05:26 PM
Ok Cjais you have my sincere apoligies because that guy is sooo messed up.


D & D...










:laughing: :laughing: :rofl: :rofl: :lol: :lol:

C'jais
01-27-2003, 05:48 PM
I just couldn't resist:

The Bible is in error until it proves itself.

#3 Proving Christianity by the Bible and then proving the Bible by Christianity.

b. Logically, it is irrelevant whether the text of the Bible has been preserved because preservation does not logically imply inspiration. A book can be perfectly copied without implying its inspiration.

When a Christian argues that history or science "proves" the Bible, this actually means that he is acknowledging that history and science can likewise refute the Bible. If the Bible contains just one historical error or one scientific error, then the Bible is not the Word of God. Verification and falsification go hand in hand.

If he can refute Science, then God wins by default. But this is logically erroneous. You cannot prove your position by refuting someone else's position. The theory of evolution and the Bible could both be wrong. Christians must prove their own theories.

Many Christians believe in the Bible as a blind leap of faith. They really do not care if it is filled with mistakes and contradictions. As far as they are concerned, they were born Christian and they will die Christian. The more closed minded they are, the more fanatical they become in their religion. When ignorance unites with arrogance, fanaticism is born.

They do not believe in Christianity because it is true. To them Christianity is true because they believe it.

The mistake was based on the erroneous assumption that the earth was flat. The authors of the Bible did not know that the earth was a sphere which revolved around the sun.

Sorry if I offended anyone in here. It's his words. Not mine.

But he's really not that dumb. Jack Chick is fairly clever as you all can see. He just lacks the ability to see things from the other person's side. Lack of empathy - a sure sign of any sociopath.

C'jais
01-27-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Ok Cjais you have my sincere apoligies because that guy is sooo messed up.


D & D...


All forgiven.

Once you start to delve into his clearly raving mind, it's obvious to anyone that he's.... mad.

Did I say that? - C'jais

Luc Solar
01-28-2003, 01:41 AM
If I had to choose what is the single most stupid, annoying thing I've ever read, it would this:

"the Bible must logically be given first place as the older authority. The Qur'an is in error until it proves itself.

Some Muslims violate the principle of historical precedent by asserting that Islam does not have the burden of proof..."

Oh and Cjais...the point you made by switching "Qur'an" with "Bible" is moot.
As mr. Chick said: The Bible is the older authority. You can not criticize it unless you have first proven that the Qur'an is true, which it is not 'cause it has a scientifically proven error in it.

You can not win, Cjais.

Hahahaha! Chick ownz, he is teh man! :rolleyes:

BCanr2d2
01-28-2003, 07:42 AM
And the Bible has many historical inaccuracies - one easy one to spot is the Census that being held - this was in a part of the Roman Empire, which at the time was not holding a census, according to historical documents........

So, therefore we have proven the Bible to be false since the Romans did not hold a census at the time given, that would lead to Joseph and Mary needing to travel to Bethlahem, therefore Jesus
(An interpreted word - not his actual name - Did not the Angel Gabriel name him Emmanuel? Then again in it's conversion to English no doubt there are many "inaccuracies" that exist) would not have been born there....

I could go on all day about them, but that would be a mute point, since one false piece of it disproves the rest....

C'jais
01-28-2003, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Oh and Cjais...the point you made by switching "Qur'an" with "Bible" is moot.
As mr. Chick said: The Bible is the older authority. You can not criticize it unless you have first proven that the Qur'an is true, which it is not 'cause it has a scientifically proven error in it.

You can not win, Cjais.

Jack Chick can go piss on electric fences for all I care.

I'm just surprised that his definition of fanaticism and false evidence is so clear and true, yet he's completely unable to apply it to his own religion.

And I'm surprised he's apparently read the Koran, but still haven't realized he's making hypocritical statements and false generalizations of it.

Our gene pool would be better off without him. But that's social darwinism, and I doubt he believes in that.

Reborn Outcast
01-28-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by BCanr2d2
And the Bible has many historical inaccuracies - one easy one to spot is the Census that being held - this was in a part of the Roman Empire, which at the time was not holding a census, according to historical documents........

Show me the documentation before you say that. Post a link to something that confirms that.


Originally posted by BCanr2d2
Jesus
(An interpreted word - not his actual name - Did not the Angel Gabriel name him Emmanuel? Then again in it's conversion to English no doubt there are many "inaccuracies" that exist) would not have been born there....

Matthew 1:20-21: "But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save people from their sins." "

Now regarding your Immanuel statement,

Matthew 1:22-23: "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" - which means, "God with us." "

Immanuel fulfilled the phrophet and thats what the people would come to call him because they knew he was the Son of God. His real name was Jesus, Immanuel was a "nickname" from the people.

ShadowTemplar
01-29-2003, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
One of the most dangerous and widespread of all those tools is his fantasy role playing game, Dungeons and Dragons.

Just goes to show that this Chick character hasn't even studied the business... I wonder how he would react if he saw Vampire: The Masquerade?

Oh and Cjais...the point you made by switching "Qur'an" with "Bible" is moot.

Not at all. He wasn't trying to disprove Chick. He was trying to make a point about Christianity.

Show me the documentation before you say that. Post a link to something that confirms that.

He's saying that there was no census. Asking him to prove this is asking him to prove the negative, which, by the rules of logic, cannot be done. (And as a note on the side: Do you really expect the Romans to write in some record: "We are not going to make a census today?")

Matthew hogwash: Which part of translation did you miss out?

The guy who portrayed the Christian did it well, however. When it came the time to minister to someone, he did it.

It is in response to this kind of post that I usually quote such institutions as the Inquisition, the KKK, the Crusades, ect...

Luc Solar
01-29-2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
Not at all. He wasn't trying to disprove Chick. He was trying to make a point about Christianity.

Ya I got that...but now I forgot what I was supposed to say. :o

Oh well. I'll just improvise :D

Chick?! Is that his real name? Jack Chick?!?! :confused:

He must have had a troublesome childhood. That explains *a lot*.

Redwing
01-30-2003, 04:10 AM
Hm. Why does the subject of the evils of Christianity still creep in to this topic, even when the Christians here can clearly tell you that this guy is a lunatic?

He's a prime example of Christianity.


Uh-uh. I don't think so.


I find the fact that we're talking about a census in the Bible in a topic about Jack Chick amusing as well. :p I will only say one thing about the issue, referring to this:
I could go on all day about them, but that would be a mute point, since one false piece of it disproves the rest....
An author made a mistake in recording the date of something that he didn't witness, and you say that disproves the entirety of the account, as well as the sixty-five other accounts made by different authors that have been compiled in the Bible? (Actually, I don't recall if Luke even knew Jesus; I know most of the stuff in his Gospel is a compilment of his friends' accounts. His primary thing was writing the book of Acts, so his Gospel to him would have been like a "prequel". In case you're wondering, yes the other Gospel writers witnessed most of what they wrote about)

Reborn Outcast, here's your information:

http://www.kchanson.com/PTJ/census.html > the census (yes, it existed, the argument is that it was sent several years before Luke said it was)
http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/jesus/quirinius.htm > the argument presented in full
http://users.rcn.com/tlclcms/census.html > reiteration of part of the above plus census info/explanation



This is really a whole nuther debate...isn't it?

BCanr2d2
01-30-2003, 06:42 AM
Nice link there Redwing, about how it is hard to read two stories that tell of the birth of Jesus, and neither of them agree. I was just using the Jack Chick way of making the Koran not accurate due to one minor historical mistake, and applying it to the Bible.

Can I ask a simple question: With the nativity, why is this scene usually one of Jesus as a very young baby, not as that of a 2 year old, as he is by the time the 3 Magi arrive? Who's version of his birth is being used, since neither seem to explain it clearly. Why is the supposed most important event unable to be explained by his closest followers the same way?

Here is an interesting link trying to work out who Jesus was as a human. It also states in regards to the census, and when one was taken in that region. Potentially the dates are wrong by approx 30 years in the Bible, but match up. (It is usually given that approx 4-6 years are unknown/unacconted for around the time of the birth of Jesus - not all the historical texts agree with everything there I assume)

Nemrut Dag - Jesus as a human (http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi800.htm)

Reborn Outcast
01-30-2003, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by BCanr2d2
[BCan I ask a simple question: With the nativity, why is this scene usually one of Jesus as a very young baby, not as that of a 2 year old, as he is by the time the 3 Magi arrive?[/B]

Where do you get that he's 2 years old when they arrive?

BCanr2d2
01-30-2003, 07:51 AM
Pretty simple - Herod makes a decree to kill all male children under 2 years old, so Herod has no idea as to how old he is, so Jesus is at oldest 2 when they arrive. It's not like they could've jumped in a car and got there quickly. Since no dates are given, logical deduction of events described in the Bible have to be used.
In Matthews Gospel, this is how it seems to be descirbed, when using the information from the link provided by redwing http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/jesus/quirinius.htm

As to when the Magi arrived in Bethlehem, if we assume that Herod the Great is the person mentioned, and not his son, then it can all get historically messy!! His son was not King, since it was by then a Roman province, not the case in Herod The Greats time..

But then again, it depends on which of the two texts we use as being accurate......

FunClown
01-31-2003, 08:38 AM
Can I ask a simple question: With the nativity, why is this scene usually one of Jesus as a very young baby, not as that of a 2 year old, as he is by the time the 3 Magi arrive?

You'll have to ask the guys who made the Jesus figurines. :D
I agree with you.

I know of this Jack Chick dude only because I'm interested in roleplaying (pen 'n paper, the real deal), and he is one of the ongoing jokes in that community. Why? Because he thinks roleplaying is satanic.

He can't tell fiction from non-fiction. What about that Harry Potter crowd hey? :D

I was damn near falling off my chair laughing while reading this bullsh*t he's now made.

What do you think of this?



I don't see what's funny about that cartoon. Its like he's never spoken to a Muslim in his life. I would say that he should do his research first. Again, what is the joke that I'm missing. Get rid of your double standards dude.

Why do you judge me by the actions of televangelists and those guys that write stuff like that?

*There is no minimum to buy etc etc, have your credit card ready etc etc, when you become a Christian all of your possessions belong to God, that includes your money, so please give me your money etc etc, you can never give me enough etc etc* I don't have a half an hour televangelist 5:30am slot so I can run infocommercials on for half of it.

I have never even met him. Wouldn't it be wrong to do the same to Muslims as well [judging them by Osama]? I'm sure you wouldn't laugh at that. :rolleyes:

EDIT: As an aside with the Jesus figurines, if you interpret this passage as referring to Jesus [read on at www.biblegateway.com for the rest of the chapter] then it is likely that Jesus has nothing that would physically attract you to Him. Unlike all of the pictures which show smooth silky skin, a trimmed beard and wide open eyes. I dislike all of those pictures which non-Christians mock Christians for. So please don't talk about Christians in general, talk about televangelists and things like that specifically.

The blonde man creationalist thing was a shocker, talk about subliminal advertising, thats what it is. Also, you see these televangists they start out soft then gradually get louder and put on an act. Did you know thats the same tactics Hitler used to whip crowds in a frenzy? Saddening. :(

Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

C'jais
01-31-2003, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by FunClown
Again, what is the joke that I'm missing. Get rid of your double standards dude.


The joke is that he's terrifyingly ignorant and believes in his own lies so much it has become his reality. The guy is a nutcase. He's mentally ill, if you judge him based on his views expressed on that page. I'm not kidding - he has attached himself from reality, and is now living in a fantasy world where rock music is satanic, where D&D is an occult ritual and where Jesus is The Saviour.

You're right. It's not really funny. But I can't stop laughing at ignorance like that. And no, it's not just him - I laugh at ignorant Muslims as well, particularily Bin Laden because he obviously believes that what he does will bring good to the world. His fantasy world.

Where is my double standards evident in this?

I'd f*ckin' laugh my behind off if I met a person as delirious as this in my neighboorhood. And I'd recommend psychiatric treatment to at least help him communicate with the real world better.

And I have no sympathy for those who choose to live in a world of their own lies - C'jais

FunClown
01-31-2003, 09:09 AM
The double standards I was getting at was laughing at stupidity like that because its branded Christianity. But you cleared that up in your last post. :)

ShadowTemplar
01-31-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Redwing
Hm. Why does the subject of the evils of Christianity still creep in to this topic, even when the Christians here can clearly tell you that this guy is a lunatic?

Because most people have a far too rosy picture of Christianity, for which there is no historical or present basis.

Originally posted by Redwing
Uh-uh. I don't think so.

Crossref: Inquisition, Crusade, KKK, North Ireland, ect.

Originally posted by Redwing
I find the fact that we're talking about a census in the Bible in a topic about Jack Chick amusing as well. :p I will only say one thing about the issue, referring to this:

An author made a mistake in recording the date of something that he didn't witness, and you say that disproves the entirety of the account, as well as the sixty-five other accounts made by different authors that have been compiled in the Bible?

No. It disproves that it is infallible, which some (many) Christians seem to think. It disproves that it is the Word of God, which some (many) Christians seem to think. Or that God chose to lie to Humanity. Your pick.

Why is the supposed most important event unable to be explained by his closest followers the same way?

Because Paulus wrote and edited the Bible several decades after the actual events (read The Dead Sea Scroll Deciet).

The blonde man creationalist thing was a shocker, talk about subliminal advertising, thats what it is. Also, you see these televangists they start out soft then gradually get louder and put on an act. Did you know thats the same tactics Hitler used to whip crowds in a frenzy? Saddening.

Same tactic that the priest uses at church too, I might add.

munik
02-05-2003, 12:40 AM
Can I ask a simple question: With the nativity, why is this scene usually one of Jesus as a very young baby, not as that of a 2 year old, as he is by the time the 3 Magi arrive? Who's version of his birth is being used, since neither seem to explain it clearly.


My Nativity scene has three dudes dressed like pimps, an Ol' Joseph action figure, a topless Mary performing a donkey show, and Baby Jesus with an enormous erection. Oh, and various farm animals. And hay and stuff.

So, who's version is that?

RpTheHotrod
02-05-2003, 01:34 AM
Gonna skip past alot of responses, but here's my little say

the Dungeons and Dragons (the actual game) does have several satanic involvments (worship your "god" or "demon", call to it for help, blood sacrifice in-game, etc). It caused alot of people playing to lose concept of reality. People have killed over it, including themselves. I remember one isntance where 2 brother played it alot. The brother that was the Dungeon Master told his other brother to shoot him with a shotgun, to prove ti others it couldn't harm him.


However, when it comes to RPGs like, eh... Dark Age of Camelot, EverQuest, Anarchy Online, or even a few board games... though some of it may have a satanic background (magic), I am mature enough to not let some stupid game alter my concept of reality. To me, EverQuest is a game, I play for fun. I don't start worshipping Tunare.

I have never played board RPG games though, because many are dangerous (proven), and I just don't think it's worth the risk.

RpTheHotrod
02-05-2003, 01:40 AM
btw, do some research on Allah... he is what they said

"And Cjais yes he is right about Islam... Allah is depicted 'as a severe judge and is not depicted as loving.' "

that is correct, and not by a Christian source.

C'jais
02-05-2003, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by RpTheHotrod
the Dungeons and Dragons (the actual game) does have several satanic involvments (worship your "god" or "demon", call to it for help, blood sacrifice in-game, etc).

That's called a "game". People playing these games can distinguish between a fantasy world and the real one. Praying to Pelor the sun god is only acting in character - and this is encouraged. If you seriously think the people that play these games cannot make the distinction between their made-up characters and their own person, I'm really stunned beyond belief.

Hvae you ever tried playing these games yourself? RPG's require you to think abstractly, promote teamwork and helps build up empathy (such as playing a character you would never sympathise with in reality).

It caused alot of people playing to lose concept of reality.

No, these people detached from reality before they started playing. It's the same story with Doom etc - it all boils down to that those people would have commited crimes regardless.

And those people who do flip out and kill somebody are the extreme minority. Why should these rare cases the rest of us to enjoy RPG's? By the same token, I could say the exact same about the movie and religion industry - a few bad examples does not label the rest of the customers as unhealthy.

C'jais
02-05-2003, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by RpTheHotrod
btw, do some research on Allah... he is what they said

"And Cjais yes he is right about Islam... Allah is depicted 'as a severe judge and is not depicted as loving.' "

that is correct, and not by a Christian source.

Have actually you read the Koran?

Sure, I'll play along and call Allah a "severe judge". But so is the Christian one. I'm thinking you should read up on your Bible a bit better.

RpTheHotrod
02-05-2003, 11:33 AM
Yep, the Christian one is also a judge. A Just Judge that does love his people.

Here's an example for ya
http://www.digitracts.com/digitracts/forgiven.asp



btw, most RPGs that people lose their concept of reality (and if you say it's untrue, you have NOT done research in D&D. I can pull up some stuff on it when I get home if you wish) are just components on excercising something that causes them to start "going weird".

Yes, hundreds of people have died due to the D&D game. That's why it's so controversial now.

C'jais
02-05-2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by RpTheHotrod
Yep, the Christian one is also a judge. A Just Judge that does love his people.

A grotesque God that kills innocent women and children for not believing in him.

btw, most RPGs that people lose their concept of reality (and if you say it's untrue, you have NOT done research in D&D.

Dude. I play D&D. While I'm starting to feel certain you'll label me a satanic worshipper, I do function just fine in society. Once again, the "hundreds" of people the die because of this were already so mentally ill they'd end up in harm sooner or later. Just like the PC game "Doom".

And the minority (and it truly is an insignificant minority, no matter what your websites will tell you) does not make the rest of us mad. Just as I won't go out and kill someone after watching "Psycho", but one in a million might. That doesn't mean the movie affected the rest of us. It means there was something wrong with the person who did.

RpTheHotrod
02-05-2003, 06:51 PM
Never said D&D players are satanists (there you go again, putting words in other people's mouth)...I said it does have some satanic stuff in it.

"A grotesque God that kills innocent women and children for not believing in him."

God doesn't kill people for unbelieving. He gives everyone free will. However, sin does have a penalty, and THAT'S why people get...punished.

C'jais
02-05-2003, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by RpTheHotrod
Never said D&D players are satanists (there you go again, putting words in other people's mouth)...I said it does have some satanic stuff in it.

Where? I've been into D&D as a hobby since I was 12. From my own point of view, it's merely a creative game.

God doesn't kill people for unbelieving. He gives everyone free will. However, sin does have a penalty, and THAT'S why people get...punished.

In life as well? I'm just taking this from the old testament. I don't if it's the standardized issue of the Bible, though.

Reborn Outcast
02-05-2003, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
Sure, I'll play along and call Allah a "severe judge". But so is the Christian one. I'm thinking you should read up on your Bible a bit better.

Umm C'jais were'nt you the one that told me that you had only read a couple of versus in the Bible, specifically Genesis Chapter 1. All your other info you're getting is from that skeptics website that tries to show that the whole Bible is a contradiciton.

RpTheHotrod
02-06-2003, 12:13 AM
Very true.

Also, I have done alot of research in the occult, and there are several things in the D&D game that does have satanic backgrounds and rituals. You're "just a player", I'm someone who knows the big picture. If I can find my book I wrote in about it, I can post it if you want.

FunClown
02-06-2003, 07:09 AM
Is gaining enough xp to make you a Level 14 Dwarf evil?

Do you work? Do you know how many people have died because of money?

C'jais
02-06-2003, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Umm C'jais were'nt you the one that told me that you had only read a couple of versus in the Bible, specifically Genesis Chapter 1. All your other info you're getting is from that skeptics website that tries to show that the whole Bible is a contradiciton.

And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:

14:21
Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.

3:14
Thou didst strike through with his staves the head of his villages: they came out as a whirlwind to scatter me: their rejoicing was as to devour the poor secretly.

19:24
Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

:13
And there came in two men, children of Belial, and sat before him: and the men of Belial witnessed against him, even against Naboth, in the presence of the people, saying, Naboth did blaspheme God and the king. Then they carried him forth out of the city, and stoned him with stones, that he died.

21:23
And of Jezebel also spake the LORD, saying, The dogs shall eat Jezebel by the wall of Jezreel.

20:2
Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Or is just me interpreting the holy text differently from the norm?

C'jais
02-06-2003, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by RpTheHotrod
Also, I have done alot of research in the occult, and there are several things in the D&D game that does have satanic backgrounds and rituals.

Then show us already.

You're "just a player", I'm someone who knows the big picture.

Yes, those that actually participate in the activities tend to know what it's really about. It's about teamwork - there are no winners or losers. It's about creatively building a convincing world.

I have no pity for those who project God and Satan into everything.

C'jais
02-06-2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by FunClown
Is gaining enough xp to make you a Level 14 Dwarf evil?

You truly don't understand roleplaying games at all.

You work in a team. You all work together. Traps and monsters are challenges and puzzles to overcome. They're part of a believable world that makes it fun to play. But roleplayers are able to dinstinguish between the real world and the game.

Don't tell me it's satanical to kill stormtroopers in Jediknight because they promote killing in the real world. It's the same flawed logic.

Do you work? Do you know how many people have died because of money?

I work quite a bit, but why has money got anything at all to do with RPG's? Oh, experience points are just an object of greed, right? And so is money? Play the game and get back to me after that.

People die over money. News at ten.

Do you know how many people die from living?

FunClown
02-06-2003, 11:20 PM
Cjais, I've watched people play D&D. My comments were targeted at RPTheHotRod.

How were my comments against roleplaying.

Don't tell me it's satanical to kill stormtroopers in Jediknight because they promote killing in the real world. It's the same flawed logic.

I work quite a bit, but why has money got anything at all to do with RPG's? Oh, experience points are just an object of greed, right? And so is money? Play the game and get back to me after that.

People die over money. News at ten.

Do you know how many people die from living?

I was saying that people have been killed over money as well as over rpg's. So do we stop earning money then since its evil? Churches ask you to donate money. Is the church evil for asking for something that many have died over? Money in itself is not evil.

Cjais, I would say get a grip, I never said roleplaying was satanical, I didn't say that? And why are you answering my pro-roleplaying questions with rhetoric as though I'm anti rpg?

Please don't assume my stance on issues.

munik
02-06-2003, 11:49 PM
I think he confused your post. No big deal.


Satanic means of Satan, right? And Satan is the name for the fallen angel that reigns in Hell, according to the Bible, right? Soooooo, maybe you could show us any D&D or rpg game that has Christianity as a religion, and promotes God as a god, and in turn Satan would be what? In the Bible he is but an angel, are angels also part of D&D as well?

Originally posted by The Unholy Fruitcake
And he shall snatch on the right hand... Snatch is one of the coolest words in the world! I wish you had a chapter:verse for that one, that one made me laugh!

C'jais
02-07-2003, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by munik
Snatch is one of the coolest words in the world! I wish you had a chapter:verse for that one, that one made me laugh!

I'm sorry, it must have slipped. But I can give you the site. (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com)

To the right, you can see some categories, such as sex, insults to women, false prophecies etc. Find the one called "cruelty" and have fun - it brings up all the parts in the Bible where God or his followers under command from God (or sheer perversity) commited heinous acts of bloodshed. Such as Moses killing another person, and God killing all innocent animals on earth because humans failed.

Funclown: Sorry for the misunderstanding.

FunClown
02-08-2003, 04:37 AM
Apology accepted Cjais.

SkinWalker
02-08-2003, 12:43 PM
I thought that all that D&D "made the kid kill" stuff turned out to be an urban legend?

I think it's interesting that once something is labeled "satanic" that it automatically becomes this evil thing. It's interesting how one cult so easily makes practices they disagree with out to be "cultish."

I respect religeous cults for the good that they do, but I'm also skeptical about their motives, historical and contemporary. People like Chick subvert religion for their own egos. I'm reminded of the popular "WWJD" phrase that went around recently: What would Jesus do? If Jesus existed (and evidence suggests that he did), and if he lived up to the values that are assigned to him today, I don't believe he would harbour as much hatred as I've seen in people like Chick. I've even seen this kind of hatred within personal aquaintances who purport to be "christian."

This hatred is often subtle and low-key today, but it exists. That, seems contrary to the teachings of Jesus, and therefore reduces the validity of the religion.

I am offended by the ethnocentrism of religions like islam and christianity.

ShadowTemplar
02-09-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by RpTheHotrod
the Dungeons and Dragons (the actual game) does have several satanic involvments (worship your "god" or "demon", call to it for help, blood sacrifice in-game, etc).

Oh you mean like offering up the newborn baby to God and promising to brainwash it into doing exactly what the priest says?

Originally posted by RpTheHotrod
It caused alot of people playing to lose concept of reality. People have killed over it, including themselves.

It is more dangerous to:

Travel 1 mile

Be religious

Smoke (ok, not saying much)

Eat dinner

Play the computer

Having unprotected sex

Having a constitutional right for every civilian to bear a firearm

than playing D&D, or infact any other RPG. And I'm willing to bet a lot of pts on that.

Originally posted by RpTheHotrod
I remember one isntance where 2 brother played it alot. The brother that was the Dungeon Master told his other brother to shoot him with a shotgun, to prove ti others it couldn't harm him.

But sourceing this ridiculous nonsense is below your dignity or what?

Originally posted by RpTheHotrod
However, when it comes to RPGs like, eh... Dark Age of Camelot, EverQuest, Anarchy Online, or even a few board games

Like HeroQuest, Baldur's Gate, Warhammer, ect? Sorry but you have not even the most basic understanding of what RPGs are, mein Freund.

Originally posted by RpTheHotrod
... though some of it may have a satanic background (magic),

If I wanted to (and was able to, which I am not because it is impossible) summon and cavort with Daemonettes in my basement at night and worship Slaneesh at day, it would be my business, not yours. Christianity has no right to monopolize religious worship. That aside there is no actual religious worship involved in RPGs. Sure, ingame, but after all you can't create a primitive world without religion, because that wouldn't be consistent.

Originally posted by RpTheHotrod
I am mature enough to not let some stupid game alter my concept of reality.

And you don't trust other people to be too? BTW: It's not that stupid. I learned most of my English reading the D&D Second Edition Corebooks.

Originally posted by RpTheHotrod
To me, EverQuest is a game, I play for fun. I don't start worshipping Tunare.

But you do worship God. What is the exact difference? (No offence intended to any Christians, but that was just too tempting.)

Originally posted by RpTheHotrod
I have never played board RPG games though, because many are dangerous (proven), and I just don't think it's worth the risk.

Show me the proof that you claim to have.

BTW: It's perfectly fine fore you to isolate yourself from a wonderful hobby, but if you ever have kids remind me to ship them a copy of Vampire: The Masquerade.

Allah is depicted 'as a severe judge and is not depicted as loving.'

Crossref: Inquisition, Crusades, KKK, Northern Ireland, Inner Mission, Jehowa's Witnesses, ect.

Here's an example for ya
[example removed due to utter lack of worth]

Why is it that Christian websites almost always have worthless, flashy, coloured stuff instead of cold, hard, factual information? If I want to look at nice pictures (of beaches, happy kids and the like, not what you were thinking), I go to the website of a travel agency.

btw, most RPGs that people lose their concept of reality (and if you say it's untrue, you have NOT done research in D&D. I can pull up some stuff on it when I get home if you wish)

No I've just played it. And read this site (www.theescapist.com).

are just components on excercising something that causes them to start "going weird".

Crossref: Counterstrike, Doom, Rainbow Six, ethanol, jealousy, driving, religion, violent movies like James Bond, a gun in every home, ect.

Yes, hundreds of people have died due to the D&D game. That's why it's so controversial now.

I seriously doubt that we are talking hundreds, and those who have turned out bad have been uniformely dysfunctional or junkies even before they started playing. And may I remind you that thousands have died or been tortured and tenfold that number been driven mad by religious worship, but that's not controversial (exept where it is obviously lucredicious, like Creationism).

Never said D&D players are satanists [...] I said it does have some satanic stuff in it.

Like?

(there you go again, putting words in other people's mouth)...

Which you never do mister holier-than-everyone-else?

"A grotesque God that kills innocent women and children for not believing in him."

God doesn't kill people for unbelieving. He gives everyone free will. However, sin does have a penalty, and THAT'S why people get...punished.

Oh, gee... The differance being? BTW, C'Jais: When did it become legal to kill men that don't worship you?

Umm C'jais were'nt you the one that told me that you had only read a couple of versus in the Bible, specifically Genesis Chapter 1. All your other info you're getting is from that skeptics website that tries to show that the whole Bible is a contradiciton.

Regardless of what you may think about www.skepticsannotatedbible.com it does have a full copy of the Bible. And C'Jais and I usually doublecheck with the standardized version, well, I do anyway.

Also, I have done alot of research in the occult, and there are several things in the D&D game that does have satanic backgrounds and rituals.

But you still haven't got even the most insignificant source? And the fact that they've nicked a lot of mythological names: Sure. Why shouldn't they? Should they just make up some new ones, when there have been thousands of years' worth of people who have invented monsters that are ripe to pick and use? What a waste of time that would be. You are confusing mythological names with mythological worship.

BTW: The reason why there are no Christian names in D&D is because the Christain mythology is so damn unimaginative. It can't even come up with a real name for its god.

You're "just a player", I'm someone who knows the big picture. If I can find my book I wrote in about it, I can post it if you want.

I'm just a player who has actually read the books that you are talking about... Which you clearly haven't.

And I would absolutely love to get a copy of your book... Just to find out how exactly you are going to document all those wild accusations you make... But I guess that someone with True Faith 5.2 doesn't need to document what he says.

I thought that all that D&D "made the kid kill" stuff turned out to be an urban legend?

It is: www.theescapist.com.

Here are two passages from real RPG books:

The Inevitable Disclaimer
Vampire: The Masquerade is a game. It's a game that requires imagination, effort, creativity and, above all, maturity. Part of maturity is realizing that Vampire is only a game and that the situations depicted in these pages are strictly imaginary. If you beat somebody at MonopolyTM, you don't go out and foreclose on their house. If you sink someone's BattleshipTM, you don't go down to the Navy Yard and start throwing Molotovs at the boats. The same principle applies to any roleplaying or sorytelling game.
In other words, you are not a vampire. When a game session ends, put away he books, pack away the dice, enjoy the rest of your life and let other poeople enjoy theirs.
For the 99.9999+% of you who are suffieciently welladjusted not to need such a ridiculous disclaimer, have fun.

Vampire: The Masquerade, White Wolf Publishing Inc (http://www.white-wolf.com), 1998 p 18.

This book uses the supernatural for settings, characters and themes. All mystical and supernatural elements are fiction and intended for entertainment purposes only. Reader discretion is advised.

Vampire: The Masquerade, White Wolf Publishing Inc (http://www.white-wolf.com), 1998 p 18.

THIS GAME IS FANTASY
The action of a Dungeons & Dragons game takes place in the imaginations of the players. Like actors in a movie, players sometimes speak as if they were their characters or as if their fellow players were their characters. These rules even adopt that casual approach, using "you" to refer to and mean "your character." In reality, however, you are no more your character than you are the king when you play chess.
Likewise, the world implied by these rules is an imaginary one.

Dungeons & Dragons (3rd edition): Player's Handbook, Wizards of the Coast Inc (www.wizards.com), 2000, p 6.

That's page ****ing 6! Read the stuff before you fling such bull**** across the room.

These silly disclaimers only appear because silly people make silly myths about these games.

The above proves beyond doubt that these games are not harmful, and infact use better English than most people on these boards. In fact the English Board of Education has announced that Warhammer & Warhammer 40k (www.games-workshop.com) promote reading, math, and social skills.

HotRod: It is totally obvious that you have never even seen a roleplaying game book. You are basing your entire assault/insult on hearsay and priesttalk. You are welcome to shut yourself off from the hobby in your little cocoon of faith, but if I am ever informed that you have dissuaded someone from joining it, I will personally send him a copy of Vampire and D&D.

Have fun on my Ignore List.

The rest of you: If anyone is still in doubt as to why I don't like religions, just take a look at HotRod's posts again.

Skinwalker: Glad you're back.

Sorry for the long post.

Jedi_Monk
02-10-2003, 01:40 AM
I'm Christian; do not lump me in with Jack Chick. He's notorious, even in my circle. The guy has made just as many anti-Catholic tracts as tracts about anything else! Just a few months ago a friend of mine brought one of Chick's evolution tracts to youth group so that we could make fun of it!