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greedo626
02-02-2003, 12:38 PM
everytime I see a picture of a person or people burning the (U.S.) flag, I get infuriated. the flag is a symbol of my country and by burning it you are saying that you hate my country. it's also saying that you hate me simply because I was born and live in this country. and it seems like the only flag people burn is the U.S. flag which make me even more infuriated. there's so much anti-Americanism in the world and that pisses me off:mad: . it seems like if something goes wrong in your country it's the U.S.'s fault for not doing anything, but when we do do something people get mad because we're interfering in matters that do not concern us. what are your feeling on flag burning and anti-Americanism?

__CKY__
02-02-2003, 12:46 PM
We should burn whoever burns our flag :)

ShockV1.89
02-02-2003, 12:56 PM
As for people doing it elsewhere in the world... hey, it's stupid, but thats their opinions. They choose to express their opinions in savage, primitive ways. They'd rather riot and burn flags (and, consequently, themselves in the process) than talk or protest nonviolently (worked for Ghandi).

As for people inside the US... that makes me mad as well. If you feel that this country is doing something so horrible that you feel it necessary to burn its flag... then you have two choices. Do somethign constructive with that anger, like lobbying for changes, getting petitions signed, and writing your congressman/woman. Or you can get the hell out. Dont sit there and enjoy the benefits the country provides you while claiming you hate it.

"God, I hate this country it sucks wtf america sucks aaargh!" Sure, go ahead and TRY to say that in China or Cuba. See how fast you end up getting taken out of your home in the middle of the night. Maybe you'll come back. Maybe.

Be critical, thats fine. But dont be blatantly disrespectful. Burning the flag does nothing except peg you as an ungrateful dreg.

RoguePhotonic
02-02-2003, 01:02 PM
Hey most country's hate the U.S......and with very very good reasons...that's about all i'll say about that..:p

The U.S. was great like 150 years ago but today there's nothing left of a once great thing....:(

Master_Keralys
02-02-2003, 01:19 PM
I agree with the earlier statement. If you don't like our country - get over it and work to change what you don't like, or get out. Go live in China. You'll be free to voice all your opinions there, I'm sure. Freedom of speech is one thing; burning flags is another thing entirely. At that point, you're disrespecting the very symbol of what America is. Regardless of the problems America has - and it has a lot, since about the 20's admittedly - it's still the best place to live in the whole world. You don't believe me - look at the statistics. Only one or two places, like Switzerland, have higher average wages, and we've got a whole lot more people than they do...

greedo626
02-02-2003, 01:30 PM
petitions and letter writing do actually work. I've written letters to the local gov. and several companies and almost every time I've gotten the desired result. burning the flag and behaving in a violent and disrespectful manner just makes people mad at you.

FunClown
02-03-2003, 08:38 AM
Usually when one country sets out to invade another, flags get burned. Everybody isn't happy about the situation. Its natural. People do it to our flag to like Indonesia, Phillopines and Malaysia, get used to it. :)

ShadowTemplar
02-03-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by RoguePhotonic
The U.S. was great like 150 years ago

By comparison... By comparison.

Only one or two places, like Switzerland, have higher average wages

Two words: Social security.

Actually, I don't think that burning flags is constructive. You cheer up those that are already convinced that you are right, and alienate those who aren't.

Note: Hating the country doesn't mean hating the people. The country is an organisation. The people are its members. It's like hating a corporation, like Microsux. You don't have to hate its workers.

Tyrion
02-03-2003, 11:13 AM
They usually burn flags to show they hate the government,not the people.

ShockV1.89
02-03-2003, 11:28 AM
But very often, you'll see the people get hated along with the government. Heck, go to france sometime. A friend of mine went there once and she was spit on in the streets. Another lived there for a few years, and would often take flak just walking to her apartment.

They can protest the government, that's their right. But very often their hatred of their government passes right along to the people. They stop seeing the separation between "American gov't" and "American citizen" and just see "American."

ShadowTemplar
02-03-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
But very often their hatred of their government passes right along to the people. They stop seeing the separation between "American gov't" and "American citizen" and just see "American."

That is very, very dangerous. That's like spitting on a Muslim because you don't like Islam, because of bin Laden.

ShockV1.89
02-03-2003, 12:42 PM
Exactly... and that's probably a big reason why terrorism exists as much as it does... because the terrorists hold accountable the citizens who probably had nothing to do with what the terrorists are fighting for.

greedo626
02-03-2003, 01:00 PM
look at September 11th. the world trade center was in no way a military or government building. that was an attack on the people, not the government. bin laden and those like him hate everything about America, including me. that's just stupid:rolleyes:

ShadowTemplar
02-03-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
Exactly... and that's probably a big reason why terrorism exists as much as it does... because the terrorists hold accountable the citizens who probably had nothing to do with what the terrorists are fighting for.

The way I see it, terrorism is a way to fight a war that you have no way of winning if you fought according to the rules... Speaking of rules, will someone please tell el Presidente to cancel his crusade against Iraq?

FunClown
02-03-2003, 11:50 PM
It was US citizens that voted in their government wasn't it? Whats the difference? Its not like you are subjects as in a dictatorship, then it would be very different.

ShockV1.89
02-04-2003, 06:51 AM
Not necessarily. I voted against Bush. I generally speak against him. In addition, I dont support many of the things the US has done in the past (which is often a motivation for the terrorists). Furthermore, when most of that happened, I either wasnt alive, or was too young to even understand what was going on.

Why should I die for it?

C'jais
02-04-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
Why should I die for it?

Fair point, really.

Regarding flag burning and anti-"Americanism" - just ignore them.

Yes, it's stupid to burn flags. We can all agree on that. And yes, it's a lame way of getting attention. Burning flags is not going to solve anything.

However, as soon as you punish them, you're the one who's looking immature. They have the right to peacefully protest.

By hating them, I also assume you hate the average, childish preachers. They don't deserve hate. Direct only pity and ignorance their way.

ShadowTemplar
02-04-2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by FunClown
It was US citizens that voted in their government wasn't it? Whats the difference? Its not like you are subjects as in a dictatorship, then it would be very different.

In a democracy the people (voters) are the control institution that is supposed to make sure that no crack-pot el Presidente gets into office. But the people cannot be held responsible for the actions of el Presidente if he ****s up, only for failing to see it coming.

This would be like holding the Minister of Justice personally responsible for a sheriff who busts people who shouldn't be busted. That's wrong for a number of reasons. What the Minister is responsible for is the fact that the sheriff in question is (still) in office.

Also, you can't blame the entire citizenry, simply because they may not all have voted for the el Presidente in question.

daring dueler
02-04-2003, 08:55 PM
they burn flags to show they dont agree with what our govt. or country syands for and personally i get infuriated too but its there rite i guess to protest things ,but they should think,we in this country have the rite to protest our own govt. but in most of the countries who burn our flags if they protested there own govt. the would probly be killed , that isnt rite and we have the rite to here in the u.s.-now if we werent run by greedy polititions.

ShockV1.89
02-04-2003, 09:52 PM
Eh, I guess we do have to let them do it. It is their freedom of speech being excercised, even if all they're doing is showing themselves to be ungrateful bastards.

FunClown
02-04-2003, 11:40 PM
Let me say that for the record that I am not anti-American.

I think that the citizens of the USA have more burden on their leaders actions because that was the person whom the majority voted for, in your case, of those that voted.

People may vote in who they think will represent their views more than the others.

However, in a dictatorship, people don't have these rights. Yes, you could say Hussain got 100%, but what would happen to those who opposed him?

The same issue is with Mugabie(sp?) in Zimbabwia who only stationed polling booths where he had strong support and put way less polling where he had little. Then once the voting was finished, people who supported him the most had more votes accounted for. And the fellow who opposed him is on trial for treason for planning to assasinate Mugabie.

I never said anyone should die. But I do say that the government should be representing the majority of people. Mobocracy? Our government at the moment is actually opposing the majority of the population yet it is the one in power.

This would be like holding the Minister of Justice personally responsible for a sheriff who busts people who shouldn't be busted. That's wrong for a number of reasons. What the Minister is responsible for is the fact that the sheriff in question is (still) in office.


I know of corruption within the Education department in my state through the FOIA (The principal who failed a test each year which you had to pass to be principal was only able tostay in that job because he knew someone high up in the Education department).

Plus teachers harrassed me at school because I wouldn't confess to something I didn't do, which meant another teacher could get into trouble. So who would you say would be responsible. The teachers, the Education department or my state government? In letting this happen, or even myself?

They protect themselves basically. I was a very well behaved student at school actually. So basically, would you conclude that democracy simply doesn't work then? Wouldn't blame you, I guess nothing works.

omeo7
02-05-2003, 06:35 PM
Regardless of the fact that it may make some of us "sad" it is completely within someone's rights to burn a flag in protest. If you feel that a symbolic piece of cloth is somehow connected to your physical persons than you are delusional. Lots of people do not like america for a number of good reasons:deal with it.

Furthermore, those who talk about the "men and women that died for your flag" should also realize that those people died to preserve people's freedom. Part of that freedom is a freedom of political expression. Flag burning should not only be tolerated, but you patriotic Americans should be proud of the fact you live in a country where people can burn a flag, and angrily oppose their government without getting whacked by some government agency..

Toonces
02-06-2003, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by omeo7
Furthermore, those who talk about the "men and women that died for your flag" should also realize that those people died to preserve people's freedom. Part of that freedom is a freedom of political expression. Flag burning should not only be tolerated, but you patriotic Americans should be proud of the fact you live in a country where people can burn a flag, and angrily oppose their government without getting whacked by some government agency..

Well said...

And I am extremely Patriotic American, who's family and friends have fought and died to protect my freedom. Part of that freedom includes the right burn my flag, just as I have the right to condemn them for doing so.

Is it Anit-American, yes and no. It's a bit of a paradox

You burn the Iraqi flag in downtown Baghdad, you will get executed.

ShockV1.89
02-06-2003, 06:35 AM
Oh, like I said, it should not be made illegal. It's protected under Freedom of Speech, pure and simple. It's just incredibly ungrateful and stupid... thats my right, to have that opinion.

I think much of this post was in reference to outside flag burning (like, in every single middle east country, and France ;) )

greedo626
02-06-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by ShockV1.89

I think much of this post was in reference to outside flag burning (like, in every single middle east country, and France ;) )

they're burning the flag in France?:eek: ... grrr, damn French people:mad:

j/k:D

it's pretty much for both. people in other countries burning the flag make me madder(word?) than when someone in this country does it... for some reason:confused: . I can just imagine how people in another country would feel if I burned their flag on international tv (heh heh:p they're heads would probably explode:D ). which is another thing, why is it 'alright' to burn the American flag but not other countries? I can't tell you the last time I saw another country's flag being burned:bdroid1:. or an American buring another country's flag for that matter.

Breton
02-06-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by greedo626
which is another thing, why is it 'alright' to burn the American flag but not other countries? I can't tell you the last time I saw another country's flag being burned:bdroid1:. or an American buring another country's flag for that matter.

Well, firstly because they think they don't have reason to burn other flags;), but also because it wouldn't have anything near the effect of burning an american flag. You see, US "praises" its flag much more than other countries. For instance, you can only rarely see flags and things where the flag is the motive in other countries. The same goes with flags in offices, schools, ect. Somehow, the flag is much more important over there.

FunClown
02-06-2003, 11:13 PM
I can't tell you the last time I saw another country's flag being burned

A month or two ago the Australian flag got burnt in three countries. I don't think your media would show it. But I wouldn't get to upset or take it to personally if I were you. By saying I hate French, you've stooped to their level. But I think you were just joking. :)

greedo626
02-07-2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by FunClown
A month or two ago the Australian flag got burnt in three countries. I don't think your media would show it. But I wouldn't get to upset or take it to personally if I were you. By saying I hate French, you've stooped to their level. But I think you were just joking. :)


I think it's really counterprodutive to burn any country's flag (unless your saying you don't like how the flag looks... maybe...:p).

and I was just kidding, hence the 'j/k' (just/kidding) and the --> :D smilie
if I were serious about what I said about French people, I'd be just as bad as all the people who are anti-American.

SkinWalker
03-30-2003, 02:04 AM
The sight of my country's flag burning brings tears to my eyes. I do mean that.

Old Glory is a special flag. It's not just a piece of fabric with a symbolic pattern. Old G. was there in many forms throughout my country's history. It's been modified to the point where it now has 50 stars from the original 13. Those 13 colonies that bravely chose not to succumb to a monarch's tyranny, but instead risk life and limb to be free.

It was there as we killed each other and oppressed each other (Native and African Americans), but eventually found freedom and end to oppression.

It was there as my countrymen (and my grandfather) went overseas in two World Wars to help other nations free themselves from oppression.

It was in Korea and it was in Vietnam.... even though it might be argued that it shouldn't have. But it was there with my countryment who did their duty and it often draped their caskets when they returned.

It was on my shoulder when I went to the first Gulf War... I wore it with pride!

Maybe it shouldn't be in Iraq right now. But my countrymen still try to put it up. They aren't doing this to mark new territory, but to let each other and the local populations know they're going to be safe. This is what a soldier and marine believes. The flag, to them, has that kind of personality. It doesn't change with regimes in America. It stands for freedom. It stands for liberty. It stands for peace. And it stands for all those who shed blood for these ideals regardless of whether you are American or not.

So I get especially miffed when what Old Glory represents is connected to the possible selfish goals of one administration.

Should Old Glory be burned in public? No.

Should anyone who does so be punished? No.

You see... Old Glory represents that freedom which permits a person to express his/herself in that manner.

To non-Americans, I cannot explain what it feels like to see Old Glory destroyed out of hate. I can only say that if you don't feel the way I do at the sight of your own flag being desicrated, .... well, I wouldn't envy that ability.

I'm against the current war in Iraq for the reasons given by the current administration.

I am VERY MUCH for my flag and the ideals it stands for.

I do think that burning an American flag should be considered free speech and therefore not punished as such. I do, however, think that there should be extremely stiff consequences for having an open fire in a public place without a permit.... that's just unsafe.

obi
03-30-2003, 08:02 AM
You guys want to hear something funny? Some of the people that are boycotting American goods to oppose the war are the same people that burn the American flag. Where do they get the flag? They buy it.

A good way to boycott a country is to buy it's goods.

Go team! :)

Luc Solar
03-30-2003, 08:19 AM
I've thought about that many a times.

You know...buying a wagon, filling it with Old G's and going to the middle east to make a fortune. :D

Those people must have a shortage of flags by now! And who can put a prize on "burning the American Flag"?!

Priceless, it must be for 'em. :yoda:

(Oh and don't hate me, I'm just a simple man trying to make a living. :joy: )

Vuk
03-30-2003, 08:45 AM
Skin walker, i fail to see how old glory, is bringing freedom, to for example, the palestinians. or the vietnamese in that war. an average palestinian would see the old glory as a symbol of oppression.

C'jais
03-30-2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by SkinWalker
Maybe it shouldn't be in Iraq right now. But my countrymen still try to put it up. They aren't doing this to mark new territory, but to let each other and the local populations know they're going to be safe.

I know the US soldiers have good intentions, but it is this that might cause resentment among the Iraqi people.

All they see is America becoming more empirialistic in the region, and while they may not support Saddam, they're more against the US than against Saddam now.

When tomahawks come crashing down the roof in a shopping area, and marines raise Old Glory to mark another area "secured", I think they're feeling invaded rather than liberated.

griff38
03-30-2003, 10:15 AM
Flags are symbolic emblems. Flags represent ideas and or institutions.

When people burn them it's totally symbolic. If someone hates for example, oh i don't know ah.. let's say the US. And they burn a flag, they are using a non violent way of expressing their rage. It's better than them building a bomb. I personally think it takes a tiny dic to burn a flag but at least they are not burning people.

Flag burners want one thing. For you to get mad at them. Do this and they win.

If someone were to burn a US flag in front of me I would say, "Whatever........ is that the best you got?"

I can't remember where, but a few years ago there was a video clip circulating of a mob about to burn a flag and the guy lighting it catches fire! He flops all over the place till it goes out, he didn't get hurt but i think that was his last flag burning.

SkinWalker
03-30-2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Vuk
Skin walker, i fail to see how old glory, is bringing freedom, to for example, the palestinians. or the vietnamese in that war. an average palestinian would see the old glory as a symbol of oppression.

Agreed. But that doesn't mean that the spirit of Freedom doesn't exist with Old Glory. In spite of the poor judgment of polititcians, the ideals of freedom will always remain.

I fully agree that little has been done by my government to initiate *any* freedom in the middle east since the Camp David Accords mediated by President Carter.

I'm hopeful that the Bush admin's "Roadmap" will offer new opportunity, but I'll believe it when it happens. Still... I am hopeful.

XERXES
03-30-2003, 09:17 PM
a particular swampie last week had a picture of a burning american flag with "anarchy" under it. It truly pissed me off, I wonder of the mods got my word about it and took care of it.

ShockV1.89
03-30-2003, 09:26 PM
I certainly hope so.

XERXES
03-30-2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
I certainly hope so. i just checked...they havent, its still there :mad: :Pissed:

ShadowTemplar
04-01-2003, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by FunClown
I know of corruption within the Education department in my state through the FOIA (The principal who failed a test each year which you had to pass to be principal was only able tostay in that job because he knew someone high up in the Education department).

Plus teachers harrassed me at school because I wouldn't confess to something I didn't do, which meant another teacher could get into trouble. So who would you say would be responsible. The teachers, the Education department or my state government? In letting this happen, or even myself?

Starting with the beginning, I'd say that it's both the principal and the folks in the Education department who are responsible, because the way you described it, they had no reason to believe that they were doing something legal. Furthermore the COs in the higher-up institutions should have noticed that something was fishy, and so should have reacted. And that goes all the way up to the govt, because they are, in the end, responsible for checking such things. But it's important to notice the difference between what they are responsible for:

The principal and the ED staff are responsible for corruption. The higher-ups are responsible for not checking them. There is a big difference.

Same thing with the teachers. The teacher who ****s up is responsible for the ****up. The teacher who covers for his colleague is responsible for hiding evidence. The principal and everybody higher-up is responsible for not seeing it. But again those are different responsibilities.

Thanks for providing a reallife example, and I'm sorry that you got such a bad set of teachers (I know what it's like to have your teachers working against you, when you are clearly within the bounds of the school rules... kinda like being bullied by a supermod).

I think much of this post was in reference to outside flag burning (like, in every single middle east country, and France

lol. For a moment I thought that you said "including France"...

El Sitherino
04-01-2003, 01:08 PM
*looks at title*....
*looks at sig*....:eek: oh ****! *runs*

SkinWalker
04-08-2003, 09:44 AM
Then there is also those isolated cases where Old Glory Fights Back (http://www.mcnayr.com/projects/creative/flagb.htm)!

griff38
04-08-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by SkinWalker
Then there is also those isolated cases where Old Glory Fights Back (http://www.mcnayr.com/projects/creative/flagb.htm)!

THats the one, :)

"I can't remember where, but a few years ago there was a video clip circulating of a mob about to burn a flag and the guy lighting it catches fire! He flops all over the place till it goes out, he didn't get hurt but i think that was his last flag burning.
"

Bonedemon
04-09-2003, 10:47 AM
I canīt see how anybody can take offence by someone burning a piece of cloth. Yes it is detrimental to the enviroment and thereīs the risk of people getting burned, but if you do it then you know the possible consequences.

Just because it symbolizes a country does not make me feel anything either way. I find it silly and dangerous to have any sort of nationalism above the "Iīm from this country and I abide itīs laws" level.

Dagobahn Eagle
04-15-2003, 08:38 PM
I canīt see how anybody can take offence by someone burning a piece of cloth. Yes it is detrimental to the enviroment and thereīs the risk of people getting burned, but if you do it then you know the possible consequences.

Just because it symbolizes a country does not make me feel anything either way. I find it silly and dangerous to have any sort of nationalism above the "Iīm from this country and I abide itīs laws" level.
Is anything else offensive to you? Yes, probably, like saying that the victims of 9/11 deserved to die.

Well, then how would feel if I told you that "I don't see how anyone can take offense by someone just taking a side like that"..

It's all about respecting other peoples' beliefs. If someone's offended, respect that.

"Just" because it symbolizes a country?? Why is Just in " symbols?

Flags symbolize a whole country; its people, its ideals, its values, its culture(s), and more. Burning a flag is a horrible way to demonstrate hate and should not be legal.