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Clemme w/Stick
02-07-2003, 12:15 PM
First off, I'm not trying to offend any gay ppl that might be here or any1 who knows any gay ppl. This is strictly for discussion.

I was wondering what you think of homosexuality. Yesterday we used the 2 first lessons, listening to 2 gay ppl (One lesbian, one gay). They had made a statistic on homosexuality in our school. We were 85 ppl there, and heres the result.

8 - will become homoes[Sp?]
10 - will become bisexual
67 - will become straight ppl.

also, of those 85 students approxmitly[Sp?] 36 of us, will try sex with one from our own sex.

What do you think of those results? And what do you think of homosexuality? Should they be allowed to adopt children, why, why not?

Personally I dont have anything against gay ppl, as long as they keep their fantasies and other gay stuff to them selves. I dont know whether to believe those results or not, but I surely dont hopw that I'm one the 8 ppl who will become gay.
Adoption? Hmm, thats a tough one. I think that they should be allowed to adopt, but it wouldnt feel natural or ethical correct. Imagine being a boy and get asked what your mom is called, and had to answer "my mom is called John". It would be so wierd!

Now its up to you. What are your weiws[Sp?]??

-Clemme

ckcsaber
02-07-2003, 12:22 PM
Those statistics scare me.....


No offense to gay people, but its too unnatural to be homosexual IMO.

greedo626
02-07-2003, 12:44 PM
I don't want to offend any gay people who might be here but I think that homosexuality is incorrect in the sense that if mammals were ment to be homosexual, they would be able to reproduce that way. as for adoption, I think gay people have a right to adopt. I don't think a child with gay parents will become gay just as a child with straight parents can become gay. those statistics look kind of wrong to me. I don't think I'll ever have sex with another man:whacked: .

Murdoch
02-07-2003, 01:08 PM
Bah. If we humans were to only do what other mammals do we wouldn't be forming societys, building cities, have reality shows or whine about taxes now would we? Homosexuality is not even near as horribly wrong as the fact that we gladly kill each other, a trait that is virtually unknown in every other known species.

ShockV1.89
02-07-2003, 01:11 PM
I will never have sex with another man. But I dont have a problem with gay people as long as they dont hit on me or anything.

As far as it being right... I dont see a problem with it. For some people, it's just how they are. It's not a matter of being correct or nor, it's a matter of what is right for each individual. Heck, there are even animals in nature that are gay. It's ok, whatever works for them.

Darth Talliusc
02-07-2003, 01:22 PM
ill put it this way. while i have no doubt in my mind of my heterosexuality half my family is male and the other half female, if a hot girl were to walk by then 5/6 of us would turn and look.

im completely at ease with the gay community, i know several people that are homosexual and i wouldnt give them up as friends for any ammount of peer pressure or money.

i believe that the homosexual community is overly mistreated in this day and age, they deserve just as much as straight couples do but they just dont get it.

as for adoption: if the specific couple of same sex partners passes the rigorous tests that all couples must to verify their ability to properly raise a child then they deserve the chance.

if the adoption agency believes that they are worthy parents then i think that child DESERVES to be adopted, you think it would be weird to not have a mother or a father and have to say "my moms name is john" dont you think it would be alot weirder to not have a mother or father?

many people dont ever get parents, its sad but true. i dont believe those children are given the chance they deserve but if a same sex couple wishes to give it to them then more power to em!

on a side note, many children get abandoned by their mothers, they dont necessarily call their dad their mom though do they? it wouldnt actually be any weirder then saying "my parents are seperated i live with my dad".

same sex couples are by no means bad people or unfit (though some may be, you cant generalize) deep down we all know that persecuting and bashing "the gays" is wrong, so why not teach our children to be free of this idiotic homosexuality? what better way to teach the next generation that homosexuality is ok then to be raised by a same sex couple?

now im not saying that children should be encouraged to experiment with the same sex, or that they should be encouraged to experiment with the opposite sex. its a choice we all must make on our own and telling a child what to do along those lines is horrible.

another thing, many of the people i know that are openly homophobic love the idea of lesbians. to them lesbians are an amazingly cool thing that they cant get enough of. so why are they so freaked out when somebody uses the word queer? i honestly believe that many of those people are merely covering up their own uncertainty when it comes to their sexuality. just a theory but oh well.

Clemme w/Stick
02-07-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Murdoch
Bah. If we humans were to only do what other mammals do we wouldn't be forming societys, building cities, have reality shows or whine about taxes now would we? Homosexuality is not even near as horribly wrong as the fact that we gladly kill each other, a trait that is virtually unknown in every other known species.

I see your point. However dont you think that its a little wierd that two men are kissing or whatever they do? Well, maybe its just me, but I feel that its really wierd and somewhat wrong. I know that the gay ppl are gay because thats a part of who they are, but I still feel thats its wrong.
I cant change it, cuz its part of being an individual.

-Clemme

Pnut_Man
02-07-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
I will never have sex with another man. But I dont have a problem with gay people as long as they dont hit on me or anything.

As far as it being right... I dont see a problem with it. For some people, it's just how they are. It's not a matter of being correct or nor, it's a matter of what is right for each individual. Heck, there are even animals in nature that are gay. It's ok, whatever works for them.

Exactly my thoughts...
I don't think gay couples w/ adopted kids work well in suburbs, but they could probably function in cities where that thing is much more common.

And Darth Talliusc, I'm sure you know why most guys enjoy the idea of being around lesbians ;)

Clemme w/Stick
02-07-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Darth Talliusc

im completely at ease with the gay community, i know several people that are homosexual and i wouldnt give them up as friends for any ammount of peer pressure or money.


Well, I also know some gay ppl, and I dont have anything against them at all. They are both nice ppl and besides they provide our family with fresh fruits all year around. Hmm, as I said I have nothing against ppl, I just feel that its a little wierd thinking about 2 men making out.

Originally posted by Darth Talliusc

as for adoption: if the specific couple of same sex partners passes the rigorous tests that all couples must to verify their ability to properly raise a child then they deserve the chance.

if the adoption agency believes that they are worthy parents then i think that child DESERVES to be adopted, you think it would be weird to not have a mother or a father and have to say "my moms name is john" dont you think it would be alot weirder to not have a mother or father?


I'm with ya on that one. Here in Denmark thats the big issue at the moment. Should gay ppl be allowed to adopt children? I think that they should, as long as they are fit to be good parents.
Yeah, it would be a little wierder to say that you dont have a father or mother at all.

Originally posted by Darth Talliusc

same sex couples are by no means bad people or unfit (though some may be, you cant generalize) deep down we all know that persecuting and bashing "the gays" is wrong, so why not teach our children to be free of this idiotic homosexuality? what better way to teach the next generation that homosexuality is ok then to be raised by a same sex couple?


Yep, exactly. Teach our children what gay ppl is, so that they wont grow up to hate them or whatever. As for bashing them, I dont think that I've bashed homosexuals before. I dont have any ideas on starting either.

-Clemme

Luc Solar
02-07-2003, 01:47 PM
Gay people can do whatever they want, I don't care or feel offended.

But I do feel it's rude when they start showing it off though. I mean...I wouldn't go around humping sheeps in public if I was into that kind of stuff. I'm sure you get my point.

Adoption however is a totally different subject. The reason for that is that adoption affects a person who does not have a say (=the child). It is not something that two gays can decide by themselves.

The principle of "always doing only what is best for the child", does not allow gay people to adopt.

At the moment Finland is trying to decide whether or not it is legal to offer single women or lesbians artificial insemination-services.

I think the child's right to have a father overrides the womans right to have a baby.
I am also amazed by the conservatist approach I have considering this question.

Whether or not some father somewhere treats her child like a dog is irrelevant. The standards of adoption and artifical insemination must be high. Screw what grown-ups want. They can decide only about themselves, not for the lives of others.

The child's best interest also means that I do not accept adopting unless the chld will get a mother and a father. Homosexuals do no fit in this category.

How many of you think it would have been cool to grow up in a family with two dads? Gayness will not infect the child, but he will have a hell of a time growing up.

griff38
02-07-2003, 06:28 PM
I am a white hetro x-marine male with a wife a kid and I LOVE HOMOS!
Homosexuality benefits humanity, in a world of such limited resources homosexuality help limit births, and adds diversity to human experience. Although there are a few exceptions gay men and women are generally more productive, respectful, understanding, tolerant than the general population. The extra conditions and restrictions placed upon homosexuals in our culture forces them to work harder at maintaining their status quo. Despite what most people think, something like 98% of sex crimes in the U.S. are committed by hetros.

I love my gay neighbors ( i have alot) they have raised the value of our neighborhood do to their meticulous attention to their homes and property.

And to all the homophobes who loudly yell, Yea, but I don't want some gay guy checkin me out. Don't flatter yourself.

MOVIE CLIP (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/griffmanco/lst?&.dir=/JEDI&.src=bc&.view=l)

Mandalorian54
02-07-2003, 06:33 PM
does anyone think that gay's are born that way? you the gay person, do you? think you were born that way?

I didn't read the other thread about that stuff so sorry if I'm making you reapeat anything but how did you become gay? just curiouse.

Personally being a bible believing christian I believe that homosexuallity is wrong and impure.

why are homosexuals homosexuals?

why would sex be for straight people and not for gays?

well what is the purpose of sex?

to reproduce, and creat a spiritual bond between maried couples, and it is pleasing so that we would want to reproduce. if it was like cutting of your hand who would want to reproduce?

sex is not just for plesure! it is not meant that people sleep around. A condom is not safe sex. the only safe sex is through marrige. The falure rate of a condom is 30 percent and there is the disease of getintal warts which you can get even if you have used a condom.


homosexuallity does not fullfill GOD's plan for sex therefore homosexuallity is wrong!

If you think homosexuals are born that way than what about people who get married and then divorse and become gay? what about gays who become strait(I know of at least one)?

yes well these are my thoughts on Homosexuallity.

Darth Talliusc
02-07-2003, 06:46 PM
glad to hear it clemme. and i know what you mean. i dont particularly like the thought of watching two men make out either, but i feel the same way about watching ugly straight ppl make out so i say this as a blanket statement: i dont think people should show affection of the sort of "making out" in public.

things of that sort is for the private home or party, not as a display for others. i also dont think that people should "broadcast" that they are straight, or gay, or bi or whathaveyou. people should judge you on your actions and opinions not on your sexual preference.


as for mandalorian54, im sorry that you feel that way. but i would like to point out that the failure rate of condoms (according to every single test and teaching i've suffered through sex ed for the past 8 years) is MUCH lower then 30%. we were initially told it was more along the lines of 2% failure rate.

as for your opinion on "gods plan" that may be, but i doubt any of us will ever know for sure. and what makes you think that homosexuality isnt gods plan to limit the population size, or perhaps to teach us to show compassion for those that are different from us. maybe this is god's lesson for us to become better people and accept those that have different beliefs and practices then us. im not saying you are a bad person for your opinion, merely that you may wish to rethink your opinions. if you dont thats your choice.

thank you though for being forthcoming with your opinion and sharing it in a non-denominatorial (sp?) manner.

as for becoming gay, well i dont think children are born that way, i think that it is most likely a choice that comes to a person late in their teens, before then they are very succeptible to outside influences and rarely make choices for themselves when they oppose the beliefs of friends and family.

Mandalorian54
02-07-2003, 06:56 PM
as for your opinion on "gods plan" that may be, but i doubt any of us will ever know for sure. and what makes you think that homosexuality isnt gods plan to limit the population size, or perhaps to teach us to show compassion for those that are different from us. maybe this is god's lesson for us to become better people and accept those that have different beliefs and practices then us. im not saying you are a bad person for your opinion, merely that you may wish to rethink your opinions. if you dont thats your choice.

I know homosexuality is not GOD's plan because it says so in the Bible, which was writen by people who had recieved incite from GOD in otherwords GOD told them what to wright.


And despite what you were taught in school I was taught differently by an acctual scientist. School is the governments propaganda so to speak, they want you to think it's safe to have sex. and if you have had sex you should go to a hospital and get yourself checked for a sexually transmitted diseas.

I also know a person who goes around the world talking at schools about this, She meets alot of people who have STDs and is like a councolor. And a lot of people have STDs, and alot more don't know it. Somtimes you don't know you have a disease until years after you got it.

It really is amazing what you don't learn in school.

but don't take my word for it, don't just take anyones word for it, not your teachers not your parents. Find some hard evidence. It's kinda hard to show you evidence over the web, but you seriously should look into it.

ShockV1.89
02-07-2003, 07:27 PM
I know homosexuality is not GOD's plan because it says so in the Bible, which was writen by people who had recieved incite from GOD in otherwords GOD told them what to wright.
I'm not going to get into my beliefs on the bible and its clearly human influenced origins. You wont listen to anything I say anyway...


School is the governments propaganda so to speak, they want you to think it's safe to have sex.

Huh? Do you know anything about teaching? Being the son of two of them and a future one myself, I can tell you that sex is not something that teachers are told to promote. You dont go into bio class and say "Hey, it's ok to have sex!" Actually, abstinence (sp?) is taught heavily. There are a few schools that hand out condoms, but these are in areas in which STDs are rampant and condoms are the best way to minimize the problem, as stopping it totally is not an option anymore. And the condom decision comes from the principal, MAYBE the superintendent.

And to all the homophobes who loudly yell, Yea, but I don't want some gay guy checkin me out. Don't flatter yourself. I dont think not wanting to be hit on by a gay guy makes me a homophobe... like I said, I dont mind them at all. I'm friends with one.

Somtimes you don't know you have a disease until years after you got it. The only disease, to my knowledge, that can take years to show up is HIV. All the others show up within three to six months (trust me, I did a lot of research on this. I thought I had one for a while, turns out I didnt).
homosexuallity does not fullfill GOD's plan for sex therefore homosexuallity is wrong!
Playing Jedi Knight 2 doesnt fulfill gods plan! Therefore, playing Jedi Knight 2 is wrong!

Orrrr, maybe... playing JK2 doesnt really hurt gods plan, nor does it help it... so nobody cares.... kinda like homosexuality.

Breton
02-07-2003, 07:31 PM
Well, I have nothing against gays as long as they won't do their..."things" in public, because that's kind of gross to most people.

But I am against them being allowed to adopt. The child deserves a mother and a father. Two fathers or two mothers just isn't the same. Also, having gay parents also increases the chance for the child to be gay.

homosexuallity does not fullfill GOD's plan for sex therefore homosexuallity is wrong!

Ok....:rolleyes:

sex is not just for plesure!

Well, it's supposed to be quite healthy too;)

RpTheHotrod
02-07-2003, 08:24 PM
I'm pretty much with Mand, but I'm not going to hate someone who is gay. I have a few gay friends. Do I think it's wrong? Certainly! Do I hate them? Not at all.

Some things, just happen, and you shouldn't hate the person, but hate the sin.

I myself, am not gay, nor do I plan on it.

obi
02-07-2003, 11:51 PM
I am against homosexuality, not homosexuals. I do not hate anyone, no matter their preferance. I judge people on their personality, not their sexual preferance.


Jesus died for everybody, ya know.

munik
02-08-2003, 02:26 AM
So what's wrong with homosexuality? A question posed to those who believe that.

Is being enamoured with someone who is of the same sex a bad thing? Or is it the sex part that is bad? If dipping your wick in another guys brown eye is bad, wouldn't it be bad if you did it to a woman as well? So it would be the anal sex that is bad, not the homosexuality. What about carpet lickers? Is that bad as well? What if it's a guy who likes to munch rug with every woman he sees? Is it any different?

So, if it's the homo butt love/pole smokin'/snatch lickin' that is so bad about homosexuality, what about all the opposite sex couples that do the same thing? Why and how is that any different?

Or if that isn't why you think homosexuality is bad, if you think it's bad because two men, or two women, love each other, think about this: Do you love your father/mother? What about your brother/sister? Is that any different? What is the difference? Are you only gay if you want to probe the anus, and not have love on a platonic level?

Is ostracizing someone for no reason other then you're grossed out by sweaty manass pokin', or because you're a jesusfreak, really worth it? Come on now, at least be reasonable. If you'd like to consider yourself enlightened, at least don't let yourself be overcome by your natural instict to fear those who are different. Maybe stop dragging your knuckles on the ground, use complex tools and such. Hell, we might even let you join this crazy club we call "society".


Stop being such a friggin' xenophobe.

ET Warrior
02-08-2003, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Well, I have nothing against gays as long as they won't do their..."things" in public, because that's kind of gross to most people.

But I am against them being allowed to adopt. The child deserves a mother and a father. Two fathers or two mothers just isn't the same. Also, having gay parents also increases the chance for the child to be gay

A couple comments on that.....first of all, if you're going to say that homosexuals cannot do their "thing" in public, that means that straight couples also cannot do their "thing" in public either, perhaps homosexuals find THAT gross and disturbing eh? Now if by "thing" you mean sex, i agree....that should be kept private.....always....but kissing? They're gay, it's what they do. If you can do it they can do it.

On to the adoption. If my parents are christians it increases the chances of ME being a christian, whether i really choose so or not.....so should parents not be allowed to have a religion? And they should not be allowed to have any food preferences, as they might push those likes and dislikes upon me.
Say a straight couple adopts a child and they get divorced within a year and the mother takes custody of the child and the father moves to botswana. This child doesn't have a father anymore, only a mother.....so apparently we should not allow people to adopt children, because thye might not end up with the perfect set of parents.
How do you know that having 2 fathers or 2 mothers is a bad thing? and what's wrong with their child ending up gay? Gay people are not evil, there is nothing wrong with them. They are helping out our population problem by not reproducing, so i see nothing wrong with increasing the number of gays.....



No offense to gay people, but its too unnatural to be homosexual IMO.

Please don't be offended that I am insulting you.......:rolleyes:
As for bashing them, I dont think that I've bashed homosexuals before. I dont have any ideas on starting either. I see your point. However dont you think that its a little wierd that two men are kissing or whatever they do? Well, maybe its just me, but I feel that its really wierd and somewhat wrong.
Maybe i'm wrong.....but isn't calling homosexuals weird and wrong bashing them?

Sorry that i come across as rather angry and spiteful.......but I REALLY think people need to be more accepting and understanding to things that they don't understand........
Homophobic people make me sad :(

RpTheHotrod
02-08-2003, 06:04 AM
Well, it IS unnatural though. Sex was meant for reproduction. You can't reproduce with two people of the same sex.

Tyrion
02-08-2003, 06:41 AM
Bah. I think gay's are fine in this world. Who's to say who is right and who is wrong,afterall?

Someone who has the ability to create life?(Not god,but um..us..)

A book which was written thousands of years ago and is believed to be true by the majority,but not by all?

Scientists who's opinions differ as much as the different versions of the Torah(wait,correction, I mean Jewish Holy Text) before Erza's time?

Nope, so it's ok for them to be gay,because it does absolutly no harm to anyone else(compared to oh...ciguarettes).

Nowadays,it's an insult to be gay,but I'm not gay,so it is kinda offensive to me,but I dont find it offensive to others(Just as long as they dont hit on me...).

Be it as it may,I think gays should be allowed to adopt. religion shouldnt factor into it(or else why wouldnt religion be assilimated into government?).

And you should bet your ass that having 2 fathers or mothers wouldnt be as sad(I find that people are shunned for having 1 gender parents,rather than 1 parent who died to divorced) if they got the same ammount of media attention as divorced or single parents(E.G. News and television).... wait,I mean positive media attention,of course...

And Man54, I might pull a hypo on myself, but why do you shun everything and say everything is wrong and causes propoganda,yet you believe the bible is fully right?

Please dont try to infulence reality with the supernatural and stuff based on belief,rather than experiments or facts.

Oh and it's amazing to me,at least,that if it was up to you or God, "lesiure would be as bad as work."

A mini-redwing,I think I pulled..

Clemme w/Stick
02-08-2003, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by ShockV1.89

The only disease, to my knowledge, that can take years to show up is HIV. All the others show up within three to six months (trust me, I did a lot of research on this. I thought I had one for a while, turns out I didnt).


Yeah that and Diabetes. Diabetes can take years to show up. That was somewhat a little off topic, but lets get back to the subject.

Originally posted by ShockV1.89

Playing Jedi Knight 2 doesnt fulfill gods plan! Therefore, playing Jedi Knight 2 is wrong!

Orrrr, maybe... playing JK2 doesnt really hurt gods plan, nor does it help it... so nobody cares.... kinda like homosexuality.

Hmm, I'm with ya on that one.

Originally posted by RpTheHotrod

Well, it IS unnatural though. Sex was meant for reproduction. You can't reproduce with two people of the same sex.

Very good point you got there, but then we're back when we started. Is homosexuality wrong? Yeah I think that its wrong, but I dont have anything against gay ppl (I know 2 of them). We cant judge ppl by their preference alone, we need to know them to actaully judge them properly.
But it still feels wrong.

-Clemme

Breton
02-08-2003, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
Now if by "thing" you mean sex, i agree....

I didn't. I meant kissing, flirting, etc. Of course, I don't mean to ban it, but it is a bit unnatural, and rather repulsive to straight people (wich still is a much higher number than gay people).

On the adoption thingy: Instead of seeing it from the homosexual's view it is better to see it from the children's view. Will 2 mothers/fathers be as good parents as 1 father and 1 mother? They might try all they can, but they just can't give the child a complete adolescence.

But still know that I have nothing against gay people.

RpTheHotrod
02-08-2003, 11:52 AM
According to the Bible, it isn't wrong because it's not God's plan, it's wrong because it's violating a commandment of God. God said nothing about playing Jedi Knight II.


btw, my last post here...not going to watch this turn into some kind of "debate"

SkinWalker
02-08-2003, 12:32 PM
I read a post early on in the thread that made a comment about homosexuality not being natural. Actually it is.

I recently read of a primate species similar to the chimpanzee that frequently engaged in homosexual behavior. Apparently both male and female. From what I remember, primatologists believe that the behavior is one that helps females of the group band together to balance the power of the males (primates are generally male dominated species). Both males and females engage in sex with their own genders and others, even when the female is not in cycle. They even engage in oral sex.

I don't remember the name of the primate species, but I"m sure I still have the literature somewhere. That would seem to invalidate the statement that many opponents to homosexuality use, which is "it's wrong because it isn't natural." It occurs in nature, therefore it is natural.

I, personally, do not find homosexuality a viable lifestyle for me, but I've nothing against those who engage in homosexual behavior. They have little direct affect in my day to day life and the ones I've met are very good people.

As to the argument that homosexuality is wrong because it interferes with the human reproductive cycle, well.... there are over 6 billion people all competing for food, water, and shelter on this planet now. When we can say that there is plenty for everyone and it's distributed that way, that argument will hod more validity.

Just my .02 cents.

SkinWalker

ET Warrior
02-08-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
I didn't. I meant kissing, flirting, etc. Of course, I don't mean to ban it, but it is a bit unnatural, and rather repulsive to straight people (wich still is a much higher number than gay people).

On the adoption thingy: Instead of seeing it from the homosexual's view it is better to see it from the children's view. Will 2 mothers/fathers be as good parents as 1 father and 1 mother? They might try all they can, but they just can't give the child a complete adolescence.

I dont think it's repulsive.......it weirds me out, but they're gay....it's what they do.

And do you KNOW from experience that having 2 mothers or 2 fathers would give you a bad childhood? wouldn't it be better to have 2 loving parents than to have no parents? Best interest of the child MAY be to have two heterosexual parents, but sometimes they never get that chance. They are raised with no parents, no guidance, no real life of their own. You think that 2 gay partners couldn't raise a child as effectively simply because it's never happened to you, and you find it strange, weird, and frightening. There is no factual evidence to back up your feelings.

Rogue Nine
02-08-2003, 02:27 PM
Homosexuality, among many other things, was one of the reasons that God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Either that or their horribly bad names. :rolleyes:

Do I have a problem with gay people? No. One of my best friends admitted to me that he was gay a few years ago. Did it change anything about our friendship? Absolutely not.

Homosexuality isn't natural. But it is part of everyday life now, whether people like it or not. Does that mean all must condone it? Not at all. But one must respect everyone else as human beings.

Reborn Outcast
02-08-2003, 02:41 PM
Well I believe that the Bible does not condone homosexuality, and therefore, in a sense, I do not condone it because of the Bible. But like other people have stated, sex was made for reproduction. I don't care how many people say it was made for pleasure, it was made for reproduction. The pleasure part was thornw in there so people would want to reproduce. I assume that all of you know how sex happens and about the sperm entering where and stuff so if two MALES are doing this. It is impossible for them to reproduce, therefore, in my opinion, making it wrong. Also it kinda freaks me out to see two males kissing.

Now females on the other hand... :naughty:

;) :D

C'jais
02-08-2003, 03:27 PM
People do not become homosexuals. They are homosexuals.

While some people may be straight on the outside because of massive peer pressure, on the inside, they'll always be whatever their sexual preference is. People who "turn gay" after in the middle of a straight marriage have always been homosexual on the inside if you ask them more closely, but society has dictated their lives. In the middle ages for example, many married men were gay, but they could easily lead a life with wife and kids, since sex played a very, very minor role in marriage - sometimes non-existant.

In human and primate societies, sex plays a much larger role than reproduction. It's a great tool for bonding individuals and makes for great education in norms and games. Homosexuality is only "wrong" as long as these archaic soceity norms holds sway over the masses.

God is supposed to be tolerant. The moment I head about God killing innocent humans and animals, was the moment I forever turned my back to Christianity.

Christians are supposed to be tolerant. Folks like M54 gives Christians a very bad name, and takes religion straight back to the dark ages.

obi
02-08-2003, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
The moment I head about God killing innocent humans and animals, was the moment I forever turned my back to Christianity.


I am gussing you are referring to the incident in the Bible. I thought you didn't believe the Bible, C'jais.

Anyway, as I said earlier, I don' care if a guy likes women, men, or even dogs. (well, maybe if he liked dogs, i would scratch my head a bit) I associate with anyone who wants to associate with me. Period.

C'jais
02-08-2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
I am gussing you are referring to the incident in the Bible. I thought you didn't believe the Bible, C'jais.

I still don't. But when I read about all the cruel acts of God, it made me stop viewing Christianity as purely good concept.

When Moses kills another man, he sets forth a beautiful example for us all to follow. When God tells Man that he reigns supreme over nature and is second in command to the High Lord, he makes me ashamed of being human.

But really, the number one reason why I'm not religious is because I don't want to live forever. An afterlife that just goes on and on scares me. Immortality is a childish need to cling on to our constant craving of self-affirmation and egocentric perspective. A blissful eternity equals an eternal amount of selfish, positive stimuli. It's not about me - it's about the world. Everything will go on after I no longer exist and I won't have to give a damn.

Clemme w/Stick
02-09-2003, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
Maybe i'm wrong.....but isn't calling homosexuals weird and wrong bashing them?

Sorry that i come across as rather angry and spiteful.......but I REALLY think people need to be more accepting and understanding to things that they don't understand........
Homophobic people make me sad :(

Yeah, you maybe right there. I contradicted myself for a minute. Thx ET. Hmm, I dont have anything more to say..!

-Clemme

XTS
02-09-2003, 07:51 AM
Thanx Griff38...for your insight i like it..

Im a young gay male, im very happy with it.

All these ppl who think its wrong, not in gods eyes, or gay ppl should be shot at birth, hung drawn and quartered.
dont know wat its is like to be gay or have any gay friends.
Yeah i do keep it to myself i dont come on to every str8 good lookin lad i find.. and the guys that think every gay guy will come onto you "GOD dont flatter yourself" i do have my standards and taste.."

Its like me saying i dont like str8 ppl, cos i dont ave any str8 friends. I have more str8 mates than i do gay i love goin out with my str8 mates all my st8 mates love me for me not cos its right or wrong they dont ave and problem with it.
im not ur average guy tho.. im me a person human being and gay sorry but thats it.. cos im gay dont mean im any less a human or a person..

with all these types of discussions it ALWAYS a Str8 person that starts them (WHY) dont u think gay ppl most of the time have enough to deal with.. wen we come on here and play games just like any other person to get away from the sh*t in real life. and we come on here and read threads like this..

dont you ppl ave better things to talk then my sex life..

You dont have Gay Bi ppl coming on here talking about the problems of being Str8 or the problems str8 ppl have.. so dont bring my life on to these boards we ave enough problems as it is..

im not the type of person that fights for the rights of gay ppl.
i just keep myself to myself get on with my life go through the problems that every one goes through, im not special im just human and like you Str8 lot..

thats all for now...

Clemme w/Stick
02-09-2003, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by Clemme w/Stick
First off, I'm not trying to offend any gay ppl that might be here or any1 who knows any gay ppl. This is strictly for discussion.


Hmm, I'm sorry if I offended you by putting on this thread. But if you'll notice that there was no meaning in offending any gay ppl, or anything like that I think we can have this cleared up in no time....deal?

I have gay friends too, and I have nothing against them. I just feel a little odd everytime I think about theyre going out. Thats all. Hmm, thats what I have to say.

-Clemme

ShadowTemplar
02-09-2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Murdoch
we gladly kill each other, a trait that is virtually unknown in every other known species.

Chimpanzes fight wars too, for many of the same reasons that humans do.

I think that it's perfectly OK. And of course they should be allowed to adopt. I have seen no surveys showing that having two mothers/fathers is somehow more harmful than having your parents divorce each other.

As for those who think that it is wrong: Well, they aren't exactly going to be a majority anytime soon, are they?

According to the Bible, it isn't wrong because it's not God's plan, it's wrong because it's violating a commandment of God.

Source that. Then I'll have another count of "intolerance".

FunClown
02-09-2003, 10:29 PM
It doesn't worry me. But when I hear them talk with those gay accents and wear womens clothes and I sought of feel pity on them (not so much contempt) that they would treat themselves like that. It seems pretty sad to me really when I see someone gay abusing themselves like that. It might be there choice but they could hardly be happy going around with makeup. Though my mother did say that its interesting how they are able to put on make-up so much better than women. :D

I actually had a friend who confided in me about being gay. Nothing changed in our friendship from that. But I did say you're not going to start speaking with that accent are you? He replied no.

ShockV1.89
02-10-2003, 12:36 AM
I just looked in the 10 commandments. It actually doesnt say anything about homosexuality as being bad. It says adultery is bad, but adulter is defined (by dictionary.com) as : Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.

There's also the 10th commandment, which says...

'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
It DOES say in there "nor his male servant" but it includes that in the list of what could be considered the neighbors possession. Besides, it probably mostly applies to women.

Therefore, I see nothing in the commandments that condemns homosexuality.

munik
02-10-2003, 02:40 PM
You should look up what "covet" means.

There are things about homosexuals in the bible, but nothing in there directly, or indirectly, states that God says homosexuality is a bad thing.

It's all crap when someone says the bible is against homosexuality. Using the bible like that is just a tool to control those who want to believe, and condemn those who don't. Just because the bible supports some of your twisted beliefs doesn't mean it supports all of your twisted beliefs.

Nice try though, thanks, please drive through and enjoy your stay in Misguided Bigot Resort.

ShockV1.89
02-10-2003, 02:56 PM
Nice try though, thanks, please drive through and enjoy your stay in Misguided Bigot Resort.

Uhm.... were you talking to me? :confused:

munik
02-10-2003, 03:20 PM
Just 'cause my post came after yours, doesn't mean it was all directed at you.

The covet part, yes, but after that, no. Do I really need to tell you this? Did any of my post oppose the opinion in yours and lead you to believe it was directed at you?

Luc Solar
02-10-2003, 04:43 PM
Umm...I kinda though it was directed at Shock too...but whatever. :)

The Bible sayeth for example:

1) Homosexual acts are an abomination to God. (Leviticus 18:22)

2) Homosexuals must be executed.(Leviticus 20:13)

I think that could be interpreted a bit anti-gayish. :rolleyes:

But on the other hand we have all this stuff about love, compassion and so on. That does not go hand in hand with executing homos. It's all about how you interpret the book. Some people take it literally. Others don't.

Mandalorian54
02-10-2003, 06:15 PM
what do you mean teachers at school don't say it's okay to have sex. mabee not at your school, but they did at my old school.

C'jais
02-10-2003, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
what do you mean teachers at school don't say it's okay to have sex. mabee not at your school, but they did at my old school.

Why would it not be okay to have sex? :confused:

People love each other - they have sex. Wow. Grand concept.

Mandalorian54
02-10-2003, 07:07 PM
because it's meant to mean more than that.

It's supposed to be a spiritual bondage between two people.


That's why theres STD's.

C'jais
02-10-2003, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
because it's meant to mean more than that.

It's supposed to be a spiritual bondage between two people.

I'm getting a bit worried for you, man. Do you have any views and opinions yourself?

Or do you just do some major copy/paste work from the Bible each time you're faced with a hurdle in life?

That's why theres STD's.

So, God created STD's as a punishment for our sinful loving and living?

God must be more perverse than I had thought him to be.

-s/<itzo-
02-10-2003, 09:45 PM
why does religion always pops up during debates?


anyway i have nothing against the gays. i mean it's who they are, it's individualism.

just because their style of living is different, it doesn't mean its wrong.

Reborn Outcast
02-10-2003, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by -s/<itzo-
why does religion always pops up during debates?

Because many peoples beliefs (including most of mine) are founded on religion. :D Just the way it is. But hey I enjoy a good religion thread, I think it makes my faith stronger.

ShockV1.89
02-10-2003, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by munik

Do I really need to tell you this? Did any of my post oppose the opinion in yours and lead you to believe it was directed at you?

Stand straight and spread your legs. Bend over, grip the tree trunk tightly, and remove it from your hindparts. Breath deeply. Feel better?

I've encountered people who can misinterpret the most clearcut post in the world. I wouldnt have been surprised if you had too. Typically, if you're replying to something someone said, it's a good idea to quote them. Otherwise, the immediate assumption is that its a reply to the post immediatley above yours. You discussed my post, seemingly agreed with me. And then you threw an insult out in the air, and since you named no names and I was the last one to talk, I assumed it was towards me.

"Do I really need to tell you this?" Man, that makes me mad. What are you, my dad? Do you really need to take a condescending, insulting attitude towards a slight misocommunication?

Whatever. If there's anything that makes me mad in this world, it's people who have the attitude like the one you just displayed.

To everyone else, I'm sorry to have gone off-topic. In response to Luc...

Those are Old Testament, right? Old Testament, in my opinion, should be taken with a grain of salt. I mean, according to Old Testament, women should go stay in a separate house during their period, and their bodies hold evil within them. If we were to base our entire way of life on Old Testament... we'd be pretty savage people.

munik
02-11-2003, 01:35 AM
You get all riled up pretty easy. Makes me smile on the inside that someone actually got upset by an offhand remark in one of my posts. All my hardwork has finally paid off! I think you're wound a little too tight, though.



Now, because of the post above me, I must state that the rest of this post doesn't directly pertain to the post above me.


The book of Leviticus is God telling Moses what to tell the Isrealites. This I know because I read the book of Leviticus. So those are rules that God wants the Isrealites to adhere to. So, that means that Jews can't plumb the depths of the chocolate starfish or muff dive. I'm not an Isrealite, not many people are in fact. So, we can safely assume that that doesn't mean homosexuality is bad according to God.

On the flip side though, if you do assume that what is in Leviticus about homosexuals is Gods word that must be followed by everyone, then you would also have to believe that everything else in the Book of Leviticus must be followed as well. God commanded some pretty ridiculous things of the Isrealites. I would call someone who condemned homosexuals because of the Bible a bigot, but I'm pretty sure there isn't a word made up for someone who would condemn others because of the rules set forth in Leviticus. Nuckin' Futs at the very least.


Now, this in reference to the post above me.Originally posted by ShockV1.89

Those are Old Testament, right? Old Testament, in my opinion, should be taken with a grain of salt.Those verses came out of Leviticus, which is one of Mose's conversation with God. And you are right, there must be at least a hundred things in that book that God says the Isrealites cannot do, yet they are some of the most retarded rules I have ever heard. Oh, and the Ten Commandments are in Deuteronomy, a book in the Old Testament.

The way it seems to me is that Moses was just as charismatic as Roy Jones. Except Moses kept leading the Isrealites around, taking them toward their land and feeding them bullsh*t from his "conversations" with God all the while. Mr. Jones already had everyone at his "promise land", so they could just relax in Jonestown and listen to his horsesh*t, instead of traveling the desert for years.

XTS
02-11-2003, 02:39 PM
Im Gay and im not ashamed of it..i said it in my last post

Funclown this is to u..and any other negative person on this forum dont be affened at all...

But do u think that all gay men are camp talking acting dress wearing poofs....

If so then come and meet me and my mates gay bi and straight we all are black belt medium or heavy weight kick boxers, we weight train every other day for 3 hours and kick box alternative days.

none of us are camp if u walked past any of us in the street u would know that a three of us are gay out of the group of seven.

im not having a go at anyone. every one has there own thoughts on this debate. im never goin to meet any of you so i dont ave to start righting all the wrongs, which i wouldnt do anyway cos im all for free speach, and ppl ave there views but i HATE Negative views on every thing not just this subject.

NEVER bring the bible in to any discussion like this cos there always a negative vibe. Im not a religous person i have no reason to be a god believeing person, so all the negative engergy goin around is yours only not mine.
Other ppls who dont worry about little things like who is sleeping with who, ave a much better view on things.

cheers for listening XTS

Luc Solar
02-11-2003, 03:10 PM
OMG please don't say "str8" anymore! It's driving me nuts! :D :D :D

*phew* now that I got that off my chest..

I totally agree with XTS about the negativity. I hate the fact that people seem to feel obligated to condemn others, bitch about their values and treat everyone who disagrees with them like sub-humans.

IIRC Jesus let the harlot join his party. He did not spit in her face and scream "U sick bitch you will burn in HELL you sinful whore DIE!"

:)

Mandalorian54
02-11-2003, 06:25 PM
what gay would be ashamed of it? It's not like being ashamed of what you look like, cuz you decide to be gay. So who would assume that a gay would be ashamed of it, so why would you need to specify that your not ashamed of it.

yes I know... pointless babling. :rolleyes:




So, God created STD's as a punishment for our sinful loving and living?

God must be more perverse than I had thought him to be.


How do you get "God must be perverse" out of his punishing us for sin?

C'jais
02-11-2003, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
what gay would be ashamed of it? It's not like being ashamed of what you look like, cuz you decide to be gay.

oh, you decide to be gay. Right-o. Just as you decide to be born with a gene deficiency that makes itself evident in your teenage years. And you likely also decide to get turned on by rubber boots and furry women, right?

How do you get "God must be perverse" out of his punishing us for sin?

By the very definition, God chooses to punish. Now, we, the unenlightened, don't have the slightest idea that God exists. We have no way to connect the natural disasters with God, especially not considering we, in our heathen ignorance, attribute such disasters to purely natural causes. Which means God is merely toying with us, since he knows that we'll never in the slightest start worshipping him because we won't have the slightest idea that it's He that's causing it due to us sinning.

This can be compared to children playing with ants. It's all their enjoyment, no matter how much they aid the little ant community, because those ants are never going to have a flippin' idea about who's doing it, and why.

So you see, God in essence, is perverse. He could easily have chosen another course of action to convince us that we're sinning, but oh no, he has to melt us with lava even though he knows we'll probably just think it's magma pressure from the bowels of the earth that's erupting.

Either God is ignorant on converting us, or he's perverse.

God, by definition, is lmitless. Words, by definition, are limiters: by defining what something IS, you put it in a box and by implication define what it is NOT. Therefore, anything I say about God will be wrong, or at least limiting.

Further, as a limitless being, God can, at any moment, define any and everything: right can be wrong, up can be down, good can be evil, one plus one can equal "hippopatamus", a promise made is kept by breaking it, and so on ad infinitum until the next moment, in which any and everything can be redefined.

With the above two points in mind, what can one say about the nature of God? Nothing, really. God may arbitrarily tell me to go get a gun and start shooting people from a belltower, or torture small children, or rape sheep, or whatever. And if it was God telling me to do these things, then by definition it would be the right thing to do (unless God defined that anything He said was the wrong thing to do.)

What then, can you do? Again, you can do nothing. This is why living by faith is so scary: you truly don't know what God is going to demand of you. Sure, you can look to people like Mother Terresa and see that God can call people to do acts of great kindness and charity. But you can't go the next step and think that he will ONLY ask people to do nice things. Because the moment you make that assumtion, you are putting your belief of what you want God to be over what He truly is. This is arrogance, and a sin. (Unless God has redefined the definition of sin.)

My third point is that for me, any attempt to commune with God is doomed to failure: it is an act that I do out of my own selfish desires for peace and security. Thus, I can never hope to succeed.
Any time I try to do the Lord's Work, what I'm really doing is my arrogant assumption as to what I THINK God wants me to do, rather than paying attention to what He really does want for my life (if there is anything at all).

Therefore, the only thing it seems I can really do is to say "Here I am Lord. A sinner, utterly and completely at your mercy. Do with me as You will." And even THAT is a selfish act, but I cannot help but act selfishly, and hope beyond hope that God will have mercy on me. (The fact that people claim that He said He would have mercy if I but ask in no way helps me out - if I start believing that he will have mercy, then I start putting my understanding of what I think God will do over what He really will do, which is again arrogance.)

And even if God does grant me a state of Grace (ie, the state in which God takes my life and makes it clean and holy), I will immedately fall out of it when I start acting of my own volition: all my actions are selfish because they spring from my own desire to do, rather than in submitting my own will to that of God's. (The desire for submission is, of course, is in and of itself a selfish desire.)

So the only thing that keeps me in a state of Grace is God's will: nothing I do can keep me there. (Ineed, anything I do will in fact cause me to fall from Grace.) However, in that state His will may act through me, doing any number of horrible and vile actions. Or they may be beautiful and wonderous. Or I may simply sit there, doing nothing. I simply don't know, and to try and predict would once again be arrogance. - Kevin Michael Shultz.

This is not something I want you to read. I just provided it if someone decided to check up on the logical fallacy of God, and had the time. Which I'm sure you don't.