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View Full Version : Suggestions for the next 'Jedi' game


Toa Tahu
02-14-2003, 10:43 PM
If there is a 'Jedi' game at the works,what would you want them to tweak?

I'd personally prefer these:
More open-ended gameplay
More RPG(as in JK1)
Different Force effects based on time
-I mean,let's say you tap lightly the 'Push' button.Your enemy flies gently away.then,you abuse your button.You press and hold it.Suddenly,the dark jedi coming your way is swept off his feet and plunges to the depths of Nar Shadda(FAR away from the nearest platform),never to be seen again...

How about you guys?

Khier
02-14-2003, 11:54 PM
Hmm I agree, it would cool to have it like an RPG, with a lots of things to do and see with maybe quests and tings like that :), I think I would make the saber combat pretty much the same as JO (it's the best saber combat system I've seen so far), except with a stance for the double bladed saber and one for dual sabers :D, as for force powers, I don't use them much anyways, so I don't care too much.....

Toa Tahu
02-15-2003, 11:58 PM
No.The best combat system I've seen so far is in Severance and Morrowind.You get to hold your weapon.

Perhaps I think they should make the lightsaber combat system like this:
Light:Faster but less range
Medium:In-between
Heavy:Slow but more range

IMHO,the normal red stance is over-used.Whadaya think?Someone reply please?

Khier
02-16-2003, 01:59 AM
I said SABER combat system :), actually I didn't like the Morrowind combat much, for swords and other melee weapons at least, it was just stab, slash, and overhead slash......... I quickly got bored of it :p

Luc Solar
02-16-2003, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by Toa Tahu
IMHO,the normal red stance is over-used.Whadaya think?Someone reply please?

I mostly use yellow. :)
But red is over-used simply because the sabers got nerfed so bad that it is the only way you can actually do real damage. That problem could be fixed with upping saber damage.

I think we need manual blocking and fast deadly sabers with a large variety of moves that can be aimed at certain bodyparts (torso, head, feet) and area located damage.

Wasn't Severance that medieval game where you went into "battle mode", strafing in circles whenever an enemy got close? That would not be so good in a fast paced FPS like this. You'd be in real trouble with guns and more than one opponent at a time. :(

Toa Tahu
02-20-2003, 05:16 AM
Some one reply please?
What I think is that we should completely make the saber damage gone.They should make it all the same.

The only thing is that they should make the range and timing different.

Anyone agree?

Luc Solar
02-20-2003, 06:43 AM
One thing they should keep in mind is that single player is one thing...MP is a whole different beast.

Stuff that works in SP is doomed to fail in MP.

Saber damage should depend on the sort of swing that hits.

A) What sort of swing it is that connects
* Strong DFA <> idle saber damage)

AND

B) Where it hits.
* Different bodyparts should play a role as well as what the opponent is armed with. Less damage against a guy with a saber and more damage against someone with f.ex a detpack.
This would be a good thing considering the balance between guns and sabers >> A saberist is dead meat unless he can get up close. It's only fair that he has the upper hand if he manages to do that.

Whether we have one single stance with slow and fast swings or multiple stances with different kind of swings in each stance doesn't make much difference. However I don't like the idea of slowing down the speed of movement simply because you're using stance X.

Different swings - different speed and damage. One stance or many stances, makes no difference really (except that 3 stances helps to cut down the amount of buttons you have operate at a time to execute moves..)


Make single player a RPG-ish FPS with a strong, non-linear storyline.

Make MP fast, functional and balanced.

Make the people who, in the middle of a fight, run to the nearest supershield spawn-point and "/amsit" die a slow horrible death.

Zodiac
02-20-2003, 11:19 AM
A normal question for all those who want 'rpg' in future jk :):

Why not just go and play Knights Of The Old Republic, or SW: Galaxies?? :confused:

I mean.. KOTR is going to be an RPG and galaxies an MMORPG.. so those games probably should be much better with the rpg-gameplay/style than an 'RPG-mod' that wasn't made for a true RPG game like jk2..

Chewie Bakker
02-20-2003, 11:36 AM
I think a similar game to JK2 with a bit more character-development would be pretty cool.

I'm thinking instead of blue/yellow/red stances you could buy points for the 7 forms of lightsaber combat (I read about them somewhere). Each form has its advantages and disadvantages, and there different stances.

It's not much, but it's a start. Feel free to use this for a brainstorm, that's why I mentioned it.

:gben: The Force will be with you, always.

ryudom
02-20-2003, 11:49 AM
imaging switching between 7 stances... i guess it would be possible for a charecter to only have certain stances though or such

StormHammer
02-20-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Zodiac
A normal question for all those who want 'rpg' in future jk :):

Why not just go and play Knights Of The Old Republic, or SW: Galaxies?? :confused:

I mean.. KOTR is going to be an RPG and galaxies an MMORPG.. so those games probably should be much better with the rpg-gameplay/style than an 'RPG-mod' that wasn't made for a true RPG game like jk2..

Well, first of all, Jedi Knight and now Jedi Outcast both allow you to switch between 1st and 3rd person views. I tend to prefer 1st person for exploration and ranged combat, and 3rd person for melee combat.

And from my POV...when I talk about RPG elements in relation to another Jedi game, I'm referring to the type of thing seen in Deus Ex or even NOLF2...where you are given more choice in how you accomplish missions, and how you want to develop your character's skills. I wouldn't want to see anything like a complex stats system, and combat based on rules to decide whether you hit your opponent. Not for a Jedi Knight game. But the choice of stealth or action, a choice of pathways, and a choice of how to tackle certain situations improves replayability, especially for SP games. The other thing I tend to hate in the current crop of shooters is that if you fail to complete a mission in a certain way, it's game over. I'd much prefer it if the game simply continued...but some other elements changed in the gameplay afterwards to reflect your failure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to Knights Of The Old Republic...but for that particular play style, and that particular story.

I just think there is a lot more room for proper player character development and improved environmental and NPC interaction within an FPS framework. Straightforward shooters with a traditional line-up of weapons just seem lacking after playing games like Deus Ex and NOLF2.

Mithiril
02-20-2003, 03:06 PM
above all, I think it should have top-of-the line modding tools and a solid support for the community.

master_thomas
02-20-2003, 03:47 PM
The other thing I tend to hate in the current crop of shooters is that if you fail to complete a mission in a certain way, it's game over. I'd much prefer it if the game simply continued...but some other elements changed in the gameplay afterwards to reflect your failure.

Do you mean like in Cairn_dock1 when an alarm console is raised you are captured instantly? Then, you get killed after several hits from an interrogation droid after Jan claimed that several entire interrogation droids burned out and she hadn't been severely harmed. I hated that. You should just get wave after wave of enemies for a while and if you survive, you get a chance to finish because they have to transport, but everytime it gets raised, all doors lock and you have to find an alternate route. I have thought of this for a while and it definatally would increase replay value.

I really don't think that someone like Kyle should get captured after a single alarm was raised. You should at least get a chance to escape until they give up the search for you.

Chewie Bakker
02-20-2003, 11:12 PM
I'd also like to try playing a JK2-style game in the past (does that mean A long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...?), perhaps within the same timeframe as KotOR. I figure there'd be lots of Sith to take on, and therefore more Saber-on-saber action.

Either that or something in the same era as when Obi-Wan was a little more active. Obi-Wan be cool. ^_^

:gben: The Force will be with you, always.

Toa Tahu
02-21-2003, 10:45 AM
The other thing I tend to hate in the current crop of shooters is that if you fail to complete a mission in a certain way, it's game over. I'd much prefer it if the game simply continued...but some other elements changed in the gameplay afterwards to reflect your failure.

Yeah,I agree.They should make it more open ended,but,at the same time,able to complete the game if you fail a bit here and there though.replayability should be much higher.


Why not just go and play Knights Of The Old Republic, or SW: Galaxies??

I mean.. KOTR is going to be an RPG and galaxies an MMORPG.. so those games probably should be much better with the rpg-gameplay/style than an 'RPG-mod' that wasn't made for a true RPG game like jk2..

I don't mean to flame you or to mean any offense,but,have you played Dark Forces 2:Jedi Knight?If you haven't,then there's a part in the game which will prompt you to choose between the light or dark side,the game ending depends on your choice.This,is the RPG-style I mean.

And besides,KoToR is 3eD&D(isn't it?),and you'll have to p2p for SWG.Who'll want to play that when compared to the rpg-ness of JK1 in a fast-paced action game?

NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE.

Hekx
02-21-2003, 04:03 PM
I hope they at least put some effort into testing and researching more of an RP element.

As for the Red stance, the forward strike is redicously powerful. It would be nice to see newer learners start with lower skill, while longer more advanced players get more points due to their force mastery.

I'd like to see the 'Seven Lightsaber Forms' implemented in-game for SP. If you follow a certain path, you get limitations and bonuses. If they don't make MP my role-play based; they can at least do it for SP.

Oh yeah, and a co-op gametype like UT's Assault. :)

Zodiac
02-21-2003, 06:10 PM
to toa tahu :

I now understand your pov about rpg and JK2! I was a bit off and thinking of the more complex true-rpg games (like.. ultima or whatever lol).. and i thought people wanted JK2 to 'turn into' a true-rpg game, so I was wondering why'd people want that when true rpg SW games already exist/are in development... and i was just wondering what would be different if jk2 and other SW games would all be true rpgs.

But it's more clear now :)... I'm concluding that people are only asking for some rpg-elements in the game, and not asking for a total 100% jk2 rpg-game. I personally think rpg-elements in the game would be nice, but they shouldn't become too complex (with too cpmplex stats and all, like stormhammer said).

And yes of course i've played JK!!! :D. I've been in a JK clan for years (see my sig lol). what a silly question. :p Good game isn't it. :cool: I used to play it non stop for over 4 years, but stopped playing it in early 2002. I sometimes still log onto zone tho, to grab a quick game with one of my clanmates.

And my clan's going to play Galaxies lol. It's p2p yeah, but we're all pretty rich ;) (i think...). Galaxies is probably going to be great.. with so many people too interact with.. but I don't want to have too high hopes, because I had them for JK2 as well.. and well.. u know.. the higher ur hopes, the more you can get dissapointed.

(off topic question..Does Lucasarts have anymore multiplayer Star Wars games scheduled to be released in the near future, or are KOTOR and Galaxies the only 2? :) )

StormHammer
02-21-2003, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by master_thomas
Do you mean like in Cairn_dock1 when an alarm console is raised you are captured instantly? Then, you get killed after several hits from an interrogation droid after Jan claimed that several entire interrogation droids burned out and she hadn't been severely harmed. I hated that.

Yes, those were a couple of instances. But it goes further than that in JO...If you fall down into some water that isn't too far under you (like on the run-up to the mining world), you just die. I mean in Jedi Knight, I fell a lot further than that, and lived...and had a way to get back up to where I started again either by pathways or elevators. I also believe that if you shoot that Imperial you are supposed to hold prisoner to open the door for you to free the prisoners, the game ends. While that bit was cool...I would have preferred some leeway, and an alternative route, in case I shot him (or he died at the teeth of those gnashers). Then if you don't save enough of the prisoners, it's game over. I hated that. It would have been far better to walk around afterwards and just see how many of them you couldn't save...which makes you try harder the next time you play.

I think that's what it boils down to, really. Instead of having the developer telling me I have to do it this way or feel bad when it's game over, I want to be self-motivated, and think I could have done better, so I'll try harder next time. My choice...not theirs.

You should just get wave after wave of enemies for a while and if you survive, you get a chance to finish because they have to transport, but everytime it gets raised, all doors lock and you have to find an alternate route. I have thought of this for a while and it definatally would increase replay value.

I really don't think that someone like Kyle should get captured after a single alarm was raised. You should at least get a chance to escape until they give up the search for you.

Yep, totally agree. Again, NOLF2 is a good example of how to do stealth. Even if you get spotted, and the alarm is raised...you still get the opportunity to play cat-and-mouse with the guards, and can usually either find a decent place to hide until the alarm dies down...or you can fight off nearby pursuers and then hide. I loved those moments, actually...because a couple of the times through the Siberia main base camp in NOLF2, one of the guards spotted my tracks in the snow...and followed them to where I was hiding, or they'd see a light go out and come to investigate! :eek:

Basically, to have a proper stealth element, you need the level designer to provide you with hiding places. Indeed, a lot of the points raised encompass the level design. You can't get back up from a fall unless the level is designed that way. You can't use sneak tactics, unless you have places to hide. You can't choose an alternative route, unless it's put there in the first place.

The other thing I disliked about JO was the fact that you could look at distant parts of the level, and see no enemies or NPCs. Yet as soon as you walked past a trigger point, they magically appeared - and sometimes with no possible physical means of getting there. I thought the whole idea of LOD was so you could have characters with minimal polygons at a distance, and higher polygons up close? So why is it not possible to see people moving around over longer distances? Or is it more to do with X amount of AI impacting performance?

If you have to have characters suddenly appear that were not there before...then why not simply have them walk through a door into view, or up a flight of steps, or come out of a long tunnel, or even get dropped off by a passing vehicle? These are more natural ways of repopulating an area.

The other thing that springs to mind when talking about Jedi and stealth elements is feeling the presence of an enemy through the force. How do you portray this? Well...it's actually ridiculously simple in gameplay terms (which is not to say, realistic terms)...by having a compass or radar in the corner of the screen that shows the proximity of enemies or even NPCs. This is another element of NOLF2 that works well. You can tag enemies in that game, and they show up on your compass as red dots, and you can tell when they are getting near, and when they are moving away. Is it realistic? Probably not...but it works in terms of sheer gameplay, and allows you to time your movements. I think such a system would work well in terms of a Jedi, and add more to the much-needed stealth elements.

master_thomas
02-21-2003, 10:30 PM
The point you made about the warden at artus is another thing I thought that should have been different. That is wonderful :rolleyes: especially for some people that I know of that will shoot at any enemy that moves.

(I like to wait and listen to possible stupid conversations by the stormtroopers like one in cairn_dock1 where one says something like "Yes sir, thermal scan identifies nothing. Yes sir, I'm sorry sir. (Off comm) Big lousy officer. Why don't you try to see out of this damn helmet while I sit in my comfy office and tell you how dumb and incompetent you are!":p)


Someone who is closer to some of the depictions of Kyle would instinctively kill him (One hit head shot with the e11 will kill.) and lose the first several times or constantly shoot his legs trying to get the mine monsters like I have done. It is very hard not to do that with e11 secondary fire)


Why not just ask him the clearance code or if it is too complicated, or only the warden can do it, (like a hand print identification scan)at least remove the minemonsters. Three teams can be annoying when you are trying to protect a guy that won't flee after damage like most would. He stands still with is hands up while being eaten alive :).


There would probably be another way to open the hangar anyway. If damaged, it could be stuck open or closed for a long time. This would make either security or maneuvering unrealistically difficult. The imperials there are stupid, but not that stupid. :p

Hekx
02-21-2003, 10:55 PM
It would be nice to have 'civilians' in SP like on the ns_streets map, and if you shoot any of them, you get a 'negative' allignment which effects your overall path and general force allignment.

I like the idea, but I could be drifting off into an RP game. :p

StormHammer
02-21-2003, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Hkx Nx
It would be nice to have 'civilians' in SP like on the ns_streets map, and if you shoot any of them, you get a 'negative' allignment which effects your overall path and general force allignment.

I like the idea, but I could be drifting off into an RP game. :p

But that's exactly how it worked in Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II. :) If you shot too many civvies, your alignment slider went over to the Dark Side...and then you had the whole branching story thing going on. Jedi Knight did have more of an RP element than JO, and it worked well...which is why it should see a return in any further sequels...

Hekx
02-21-2003, 11:32 PM
Ah, cool. I haven't played JK, the graphics seem to scare me off. :D

But the gameplay sounds very good. Maybe JK2 was a test to see if the JK1 or JK2 sold better meaning they plan to make the JKIII more like the best seller.

I seriously hope the questionaire they released was meant towards the overall approach made on JO2, because it seems most* people want more role-playing elements. :)







* - Don't quote me on that. :D

Wisperer
02-22-2003, 12:47 PM
I would like to see the option to have more then one player (example:small home lan) be able to play the campaigns, with each additional person the number of and skill of the mobs going up.

I got bored with JKII after defeating it twice. after downloading some player made campaigns i have started playing it again.


Zodiac
I just reread the KOTOR sight. where did you see that more then one can play? I would love it if it was a multiple player game, as long as there were campaigns to be done as i do not really like just being able to duel or team fight others.


For the sneaking area, i have found a alternate route but I was jusing a cheat at the time. i need to play it again with out any cheats to see if it is playable before posting it.

Toa Tahu
02-23-2003, 02:23 AM
To zodiac:
It's good you see what I mean and not think that I meant you some offense.The RP-ing I meant is the type in JK1.That was good,I like it,and I would like it implemented if there was another Jedi Knight game.

One more thing:if you killed a Stormie without it attacking you,your alignment should drift to the Dark side,however,when attacking someone who attacked you doesn't change your alignment.Sounds like Morrowind,doesn't it?(btw,Hekx Noku,you aren't drifting to a RP game,it's JK you're talking about,and JK is a FPS,remember?)

You want to play Galaxies?I think KoTOR is a good example of Galaxies,only that you don't have to p2p or MP.


Personally,I would like the next 'Jedi' game to be more open ended,like how you guys describe NOLF2.That would be nice.Imagine having a different way to solve a certain part of the game,then having different ending cutscenes depending on how you played.

Come to think of it,there weren't much of NPC's in JO,isn't it,if compared to JK.Remember the starting JK levels?You had the other bar-members,and then some others?That is nice.

There WERE a few bugs in JO,or at least,some place where I can't get through without godmode.Remember the part in artus_detention?The air vent?Persoanlly,I could go on playing for hours over just to pass that place,but,because my time's limited,I was impatient to use Godmode.Seriously,I can't really proceed if I didn't use godmode.


Talking about the storyline,what would you guys thing it would be?I'd want a story twist,like some of the badguys you fought but didn't die turn to the light side,as said by this guy in j-o.com?
http://www.jedi-outcast.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8873

I'd like that,but what would you guys think?

StormHammer
02-23-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Toa Tahu
Talking about the storyline,what would you guys thing it would be?I'd want a story twist,like some of the badguys you fought but didn't die turn to the light side,as said by this guy in j-o.com?
http://www.jedi-outcast.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8873

I'd like that,but what would you guys think?

If you're talking about storyline...then I think there is a great deal of room for improvement. Something that the developers of Deus Ex: Invisible War and Far Cry have been talking about recently is emergent behaviour. Basically, they are talking about setting the scene using an underlying plot...but allowing the player to take greater control over how the story is told by introducing much better AI, so your enemies (and even NPCs) will start making their own decisions. Basically, it is a move away from heavy scripting, so an enemy will not simply duck for cover in the same place every time...but may dive to the ground, duck behind a tree, jump into a jeep to escape, get down on their knees and beg for mercy...all at random. This obviously affects the gameplay...and the way the gamer is telling their own story.

So basically, you have two levels of story-telling...the underlying plot, which the developer puts in place to keep the game flowing, and the way the gamer decides to achieve certain objectives.

The other thing I would like to see is far less dependence on cut scenes. Other games have managed to tell interesting stories with minimal cut-scenes (Half-Life, Unreal, Deus Ex), by incorporating the story-telling into the gameplay. In Half-Life you remain in-character while key events unfold around you...even having a blackout and coming to consciousness to see you are being carried by marines. And the NPCs give you bits of important information as you go along. In Unreal, you can read the personal logs of the ship's dead crew and the Nali, as well as read messages on the walls - and these give you clues in how to proceed. Deus Ex, of course, took it to the next level, by allowing you to question NPCs, watch newsfeeds, read newspapers, read books, hack into computer terminals to read emails, and then allowed you to make informed choices about who you really wanted to work for, which affected how the game ended.

I would love to see the next game in this series incorporate these kinds of elements. Cut scenes where only dialogue is involved, particularly those which feature your character, could work just as well (or even better) by allowing you to remain in-character. Scripted sequences for key events can build atmosphere and affect how you proceed, and intelligent AI that basically lives in it's environment and makes it's own decisions regardless of whether you are viewing them, can randomise encounters and make you think twice about how to tackle the next section. Being able to hack systems to read information, talk to NPCs to obtain clues (while still having freedom of movement), steal a data card and read it's contents, and listen in to conversations that actually feed you clues (as well as the humerous chat such as that between the Stormtroopers in JO), are all ways in which the story-telling becomes part of the environment, and becomes more immersive as the player has to uncover it themselves.

As for the underlying plot...it might be good to see a bit of conspiracy going on, where some characters who are supposd to be on your side are up to no good, and you have to find out who you can trust and who you can't...and then have some betrayals later on, where a supposed ally suddenly tries to kill you. Expanding on the number of key characters you interact with during the course of the game is also important, I think - and I mean characters that you will meet again later on, not just meet once and never see again.

The thing I liked about JO was that you got to meet the villain early on in the game...and then had to face them again. In too many games, these days, you simply go from level to level to level, and only meet the Big Boss at the end, usually in a contrived confined space packed with ammo and health pickups.

I'd prefer having a few encounters with your arch-nemesis, where you fight them, then they get away, then you come across them again and have another battle. If you think about it...that fits well with the original Star Wars trilogy, where Luke locked horns with Vader a few times (the Death Star run, the duel in ESB, surrendering in ROTJ, then duelling again). In this way, you can build up the relationship between the key characters.

As far as characters go...they all need a bit more depth and range of emotion (which can be expressed through voice and animation) to make them really come alive.

Toa Tahu
02-24-2003, 08:51 AM
Yeah,I'd really like what you'd say about the storyline,ComRaven.That's what I'd think the next Jedi game should be about.

As for the boos-encounter,there should be a VERY VAGUE chance that you MIGHT beat him/her,then there should be a change in the main storyline.This brings for more open-endedness storyline.I like!

master_thomas
02-24-2003, 09:44 PM
About the npcs, what you said reminds me of "Massive", the program used in Lord of the Rings for the major battles. It would be much better if that happened than things like: enemies with blasters make more evasive maneuvers, like the rebels who move alot and the enemies with strong weapons, like rocket launchers stay still and fire. And of course, an enemy with no weapon will run along waypoints until they reach a point_combat and stand there and put their hands up like idiots as you point a blaster at their head. This is how it worked in Jedi Outcast. Those stormtroopers are too trusting.

And about the cutscenes, I think you are right that more storyline happens during gameplay and I also don't like when you talk to an allied NPC ("use" key) they say "did you hear something?" over and over again. You should choose what you say and get a response based on that and if you already asked or said that, they will mention that you did. I'm pretty sure they could have been annoyed by repitition with things like target_counters, which target script runners that edited the use script, which was a sound and anim. This could have improved realism in JO.

ILR
02-24-2003, 11:04 PM
I think the lightsaber should be controled by the mouse. Button 1 will move it on the direction you want to attack, and button 2 will move it in the direction you want to defend.

"But how will they look around?" When your fighting someone in a duel whats the point of having the mouse control over the direction of you player? He's right in your face, you don't need to worry about him sneaking away! A lock on system would work fine (much like zelda).

The movement of the saber would be as costomized as the movement of your mouse. There wouldn't be any need for nifty tricks or watered down dueling, just straight forward lightsaber logic: If the saber's in the way, then they bounce, if not, then your dead.

Of course this is all ideas really.. I don't know how the player would handle this. And I don't know if there would be any nasty way to manipulate this. I can't imagine how, since its the most direct video game translation to the real thing!

ryudom
02-24-2003, 11:50 PM
i don't think that saber system would work well in the JK series, it being an FPS and all... i think alot of people enjoy the FPS freedom of total control

ILR
02-25-2003, 01:16 PM
Funny you mention control, because the first lacking that comes to mind when playing JK is control. I have no direct control over which direction I swing the saber, I instead have to move my character in the direction I want and hope for the best. This form of middle man saber slashing is extremely irritating. I think its kinda silly that a game where you duel with light sabers from the third person perspective should be called a "first person shooter". Lightsaber duels don't follow FPS gameplay the least bit, so why should the game be designed around a FPS style of playing?

StormHammer
02-25-2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by ILR
The movement of the saber would be as costomized as the movement of your mouse. There wouldn't be any need for nifty tricks or watered down dueling, just straight forward lightsaber logic: If the saber's in the way, then they bounce, if not, then your dead.

While it might give you potentially more control (while facing forward)...it might not make the gameplay better - especially where defence is concerned. In Jedi Knight and Outcast, blocking is automatic, just look in the direction of the blade coming at you...so it's pretty intuitive, and easy for the majority of gamers to handle. If you start turning it into a saber-sim, I think a lot of gamers would get frustrated with it and stop playing, because they weren't quick enough to block an attack coming in from a particular direction. I personally wouldn't mind just hitting a key to do a manual defend (rather than have it all automatic)...but still retain an auto-animation to block based on where you're looking.

There is also the problem that it would need excellent per-pixel collision detection to make it work properly...and if a saber can hit another saber from any angle, surely that increases the performance overhead, rather than simply having a set number of moves to deal with? Also, how would the animation of each saber stroke handle that, if it was completely freeform movement? I don't know...

Anyway, I'm not a fan of having no mouselook either.

Originally posted by Toa Tahu
Yeah,I'd really like what you'd say about the storyline,ComRaven.That's what I'd think the next Jedi game should be about.

ComRaven? :confused:

ILR
02-25-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer
While it might give you potentially more control (while facing forward)...it might not make the gameplay better - especially where defence is concerned. In Jedi Knight and Outcast, blocking is automatic, just look in the direction of the blade coming at you...so it's pretty intuitive, and easy for the majority of gamers to handle. If you start turning it into a saber-sim, I think a lot of gamers would get frustrated with it and stop playing, because they weren't quick enough to block an attack coming in from a particular direction. I personally wouldn't mind just hitting a key to do a manual defend (rather than have it all automatic)...but still retain an auto-animation to block based on where you're looking.



I agree with your concern. In my idea I was on the fence about automatic defense and manual defense. The reason I wanted to avoid the 'press a button for perfect defense' is that you'll get a newb who'll just sit there with the defense button held down and nobody will go no where fast. I was also concern about the ambiguousness of auto blocking. Because the computer can't predict where the attacks are coming from, we see animations that are sudden and jerky. These are equally difficult to predict for the player. How the computer decides to randomly block will affect how the player counter attacks. Parries and counter attacks are the weakest part of the current JK system and that's the part this idea of mine is supposed to focus on.

I was only thinking of 1v1 duels when thinking this up, so mouse look wont be sorely missed :P. Of course, that targeting thing I mentioned isn't set in stone or anything... am I the only person who ever played Zelda for the 64? -_-;; You can turn that on and off with the press of a button. It's easy and convenient. Perfect for sword play.

StormHammer
02-25-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by ILR
Of course, that targeting thing I mentioned isn't set in stone or anything... am I the only person who ever played Zelda for the 64? -_-;; You can turn that on and off with the press of a button. It's easy and convenient. Perfect for sword play.

I haven't played that...but I've played Severance: Blade Of Darkness, which allows you to lock on (and switch between) targets. While it worked quite well in that game, it had the effect of slowing down the combat a bit.

RUNE also allowed targeting...but I hardly ever used it except against stationery opponents.

I agree that in a 1v1 scenario it could work...but it get's a lot trickier when facing more than one opponent. :)

Jolts
02-26-2003, 04:43 AM
the free swing type of system sounds good on paper, but in use I think it starts to fall apart and ends up looking pretty dull. As far as a lock on function, Obi wan used it and it worked well for 1on1 fighting of the jedi council members or the jin ha. In 5 or more people battles it ended up making it easier for you to get jacked up by enemies always running around behind you and shooting you in the back. I'm not against any game adding more options like this, the more options the better...toggle baby, toggle.

ILR
02-26-2003, 01:28 PM
hehe.. yeah.. I'd definitly make it a toggle. One of the most important things I try to remember when designing a game is to always give the player the option when it comes to things like this. The game would work both ways, so it'll be up to the player to hit that target button.

Unfortunately if the player still has mouse look, then saber control will have to fall into pre-programed animations.

Let me try and say this differently.. anyone play the Star Wars arcade that was made by Sega? The one where you sat down and had a joystick for control. There was a bonus mission in that where you could face Dearth Vader. That was the best game translation of a lightsaber battle I've ever played. I moved the saber where I needed to block, and his saber bounced away accordingly. There were no charts or graphs or point systems involved in deciphering the action. I could play the game just by looking at it. Now THAT would be a sweet dueling mod.

StormHammer
02-26-2003, 03:02 PM
Taking a broader view for a moment...one game I am looking forward to this year is Mace Griffin: Bounty Hunter. Why? Because it will allow you to fly (and fight) in space ships, and then land and step out of them to go running around on foot.

In my mind, this is exactly the kind of thing the Jedi Knight series needs, even if it is limited. It helps to break up the monotony of being on foot all of the time...and it is true to the Star Wars universe, where you have some space battles.

Even if the engine is incapable of realising this...then I think it would help to have a few more levels aboard space craft - perhaps even a level where you have to defend one from being boarded. Taking that a step further, you could even have something like the 'defend the base' levels in Unreal 2...set up some auto-turrets in certain locations, seal blast doors, etc., until either help arrives, or you buy time for others to get off the ship.

As far as mini-games go, I wouldn't mind something similar (but different) to 'shoot-the-TIE-fighter' as seen in JO. Perhaps you man a mounted blaster canon on the back of a speeder, or something, and have to shoot at pursuers. Or stand in the door of a dropship and pick off targets from the air prior to landing in a hot zone. And then, of course, I'd love to be able to sit down and play Sabacc in some seedy back-street cantina - perhaps to try and win enough credits to pay for something. :) These sorts of things need not be excessive, but can help to break up simply running-and-gunning. I'd also like to see them expand elements like taking someone prisoner and forcing them to help you (I loved that in JO), and some more escort type missions. I think I've mentioned elsewhere about maybe slicing into an Imperial Probe droid (or similar) and flying it around to scout the terrain, and maybe launch a sneak attack...and taking that a step further, is there the possibility of using some form of Jedi meditation to allow you to perceive things - like an astral projection flying around. Of course, your body would be vulnerable at such moments.

I really liked the way they added this sort of thing in JO - the only thing I didn't like was the GAME OVER screen if you failed to save enough of those prisoners while shooting from the turret, for example. The only time I want a GAME OVER screen is when the character I'm playing gets killed.

Anyone else agree/disagree about the mini-game elements? And what would you like to see?

Toa Tahu
02-27-2003, 08:22 AM
Hey,StormHammer,I am SO sorry for saying you were ComRaven.I just got confused between you and the other guy from SwKnights.com.So sorry.

Anyway,I do agree with you,also,about the mini-games thing.However,most people won't want such things in a FPS,although it'll make things more interesting.Buying new weapons,new this,new that,zada,zip! is a nice thing in a FPS,but will you guys like it?Personally,I DO like it though.

Yeah,I also don't like it if suddenly this comes up:
"Game Over
(so and so) is killed."

That sucked in JO!I never liked to 'lose' just because someone you can't help died.(in Kejim Post,something like that happened.Jan 'died'.)They(the developers) should make it so such that if something happens,there IS a CONTINGENCY plan for you to execute.In fact,not one,but more that one of them to execute,should anything happen.The storyline should also follow suit depending on which plan you chose.That would be interesting.

I personally also like a Saber sim too.Why not make the saber in its full glory,rather than just a small glorification of a glorious thing?However,I don't quite agree with ILR's format of combat.
A type of combat suitable would be something in-between Severance:BoD and Morrowind.You don't neecessarily need to lock on to your enemy,but the enemy don't need to be so weak either(so weak as to die in a single shot...)As a plus(I think it is),you get to hold your shot so you deal maximum damage,active blocking(a single shot won't do much damage,but more of them sure would deal exponential damage;i.e.1 shot=2dmg,2nd shot=5dmg,3rd shot=9dmg and so on so forth)And things like that.

StormHammer
02-27-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Toa Tahu
Hey,StormHammer,I am SO sorry for saying you were ComRaven.I just got confused between you and the other guy from SwKnights.com.So sorry.

Heh. No worries. Just thought I was posting in the wrong thread for a moment. :cool:

Buying new weapons,new this,new that,zada,zip! is a nice thing in a FPS,but will you guys like it?Personally,I DO like it though.

What a good idea. :) Have some shops in the game, like Jedi Knight had, so you can go in and pick up supplies and either buy or steal a nice-looking weapon. Baron's Hed was one of my favourite levels, it has to be said...

Yeah,I also don't like it if suddenly this comes up:
"Game Over
(so and so) is killed."

That sucked in JO!I never liked to 'lose' just because someone you can't help died.(in Kejim Post,something like that happened.Jan 'died'.)They(the developers) should make it so such that if something happens,there IS a CONTINGENCY plan for you to execute.In fact,not one,but more that one of them to execute,should anything happen.The storyline should also follow suit depending on which plan you chose.That would be interesting.

Yep - I knew there was another one - Jan. Thanks.

It's not really that hard to do to put in some contingency. Sure you can put a key NPC in a dangerous situation...but if they're important to the plot later on...then why not (a) make them invincible, and just make it seem to the player that they are in danger of dying - because it's no less exciting having to rescue your partner, even if they're in no real danger, (b) let that NPC be captured by enemy forces, and then give you an optional side-quest of freeing them from captivity before or after you've completed your main objective.

So it means a bit of extra work...but it also improves the gameplay, and makes the situation more realistic to the player because they never have to reload a level to try again unless their own character dies.

Toa Tahu
02-28-2003, 05:49 AM
As again,I agree with you,StormHammer.it doesn't sound that hard to put in just some contingency...why don't they just make the life of the NPC's MUCH longer...like 2000 in game units,so they don't die so fast,or rather,'cornily end the game so fast'.

As for Baron's Hed(level 5 JK1),it really felt like a earthly-town,not one in the Star Wars universe.That was the one with the most NPC's,I like.If only they could have toned up the interaction with them more.or,if you attacked one,the rest in the area would attack you back in self defense.Such interaction would affect certain things in the game.That would rock.

BTW,why is it only me and StormHammer replying to this topic?Reply more,guys.Awaiting your replies.Thanks.

Oh yeah,how come I don't get points if someone replies to this topic?

Jolts
02-28-2003, 07:16 AM
I ripped all the sound from obi wan and have been listening to it, and there is a lot of npc dialog in there that sounds like they had a decent ammount of side quests originally. It would have been great if they actually used it. As far as JO, with a 1 year dev time they didn't have time to implement npc type interaction you would see in something like deus ex.

It would be nice to have some dick tracy investation type missions before you go off and blow up some secret imperial base. Hopefully this addon/sequel isn't the only jedi game they have lined up.

Toa Tahu
02-28-2003, 08:12 AM
Yup,I also agree on you with that last part,Jolts.I would also like such type of optional missions that COULD affect the gameplay of the main quest.That would be nice.

StormHammer
02-28-2003, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by Jolts
It would be nice to have some dick tracy investation type missions before you go off and blow up some secret imperial base. Hopefully this addon/sequel isn't the only jedi game they have lined up.

Yeah, that's a good idea. Give it a better build-up with some better stealth elements, etc. And little side-quests that may not affect the main plot very much, but offer you rewards that can help you later on.

Heh...and talking about Dick Tracy...what SW characters would you like to see in a sequel/expansion? We had Luke, Lando and Mon Mothma in JO.

I think it would be nice to see Wedge Antilles pop up somewhere, and get Rogue Squadron involved in part of the plot.

Vairtis
02-28-2003, 11:47 AM
I would like it to be a open envirement instead of having the staightforward shootout. By open envirement I mean like Zelda: Ocarina Of Time or Zelda: Majoras Mask. Just me and my 1 and 1/4 sence :p

Vairtis
02-28-2003, 11:49 AM
it's hard on the eyes with strike trough so Zelda Ocarina of time or Zelda Majoras mask

ryudom
02-28-2003, 01:31 PM
lol that color isn't much better! heh anyway, you mean like one big huge level? dunno how well that would work in an FPS heh but i do think levels should be more open

ILR
02-28-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Vairtis
it's hard on the eyes with strike trough so Zelda Ocarina of time or Zelda Majoras mask

huh? :confused: I don't get it, why is it so bad to say Zelda Ocarina of Time and Zelda Majora's Mask?

Vairtis
02-28-2003, 03:43 PM
ok it's not bad to say it I was trying to jazz it up with strike though and it didn't work :( so Zelda Ocarina Of Time or Zelda Majora's mask there :).

StormHammer
02-28-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Vairtis
ok it's not bad to say it I was trying to jazz it up with strike though and it didn't work :( so Zelda Ocarina Of Time or Zelda Majora's mask there :).

Welcome to the forums. :)

If you want to change something in one of your posts...just use the http://www.lucasforums.com/images/edit.gif button attached to your post so you can change the content. ;)

As for open environments - do you mean large outdoor areas, or just large areas? I've never played Zelda...

I agree that large outdoor environments are a good idea...as long as it's not just a flat plain. That would be intensely boring. Something approaching the scale of Jedi Knight's maps would be most welcome. For all it's faults, Unreal 2 had some nice external environments to run around in, with interesting rock formations - the 'defend Atlantis' level is quite nice. I also prefer areas with vegetation and large tracts of deep water, so that I can explore a place thoroughly - of course, that means rewarding the player for exploring further and deeper.

Indoor areas should follow the proper architectural traits of buildings...or caverns, IMO. I do like levels, especially rooms in buildings, that make sense. If you have people living in an environment, then those people need to eat (kitchen/dining area), sleep (bedroom or sleeping space), and see to their bodily functions (bathroom), as well as have living space, rec rooms, etc. And those rooms should be appropriately furnished (even simply). It obviously depends on the setting...but I like a bit of realism to aid the immersion.

ILR
02-28-2003, 08:40 PM
The thing that always irritated me the about most maps in FPS is that they always looked way oversized. Walk yourself through the nearest doorframe. Now jump into JKII and take a gander at some of the doorframes in that game. Sure some doors are supposed to be big, but sweet momma some stuff in that game is just WAAAAAAAAAAAY too big. You get what I like to call "munchkin syndrome" when maps are make like this. Almost every game I've ever played has suffered from this on some level. The only game that is completely void of the munchkin syndrome is Shenmue (if anyone's played that).

The real problem is that when the devs test out these maps, they size up the levels on how long it takes to get from one end to the other. Since most games have the character move abnormally fast, its no wonder that envirnments are extrodinarily oversized. It all comes down to proportion ratios. If they make Kyle jog instead of sprint all the time (more believable, I'm sure) then they wont have to design levels made for giants (also nice addition to believability). Ya may be thinkin "Pffff! Who cares about believability? Its a game!" Well, it actually does matter in the long run. In a fiction novel based on reality, the author doesn't always have to make sense (Catcher in the Rye). But when its Sci Fi, the story has to be even MORE believable than normal in order for the reader (or gamer) to buy into what he or she is reading/seeing.

JK's biggest lacking is that Kyle sprints in eight directions Robotron style... and I mean, who can't do that? Its other problem is the speed of the saber animations. Way too fast. You don't need the fastest animations in the world to get the fastest action. Even the duels in the newest SW movies look 'slow' compared to JKII.

*needs a drink of water*

master_thomas
03-01-2003, 02:43 AM
Speaking of way too big, a few weeks ago, I had started a new map (I'm finishing it now) and it was to start in Luke's meditation room (where you first meet him in yavin_temple) and I was in a hurry (doing sort of rough make of the level. So I compiled and got errors to to size. This puzzled me because this was done in JK2. So I played the level and everything was huge! Luke's meditation platform (the wierd rectangular extrusion next to the window he sits on) was taller than Kyle. I could barely jump up the stairs.:o This was good because it gave me the first reason to use scale.

Right now, it is going to be a level to start my actual JK2 mapping career (I've never released a level) and I'm waiting for the bounce 8 to finish. I think of it a disturbingly long time at
"--- IlluminateRawLightmap--- 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8..." It hasn't noticeably changed in fifty minutes, wait, let me check, now its finally up to nine. :lol: I probably overdid it with extras because the file is 11mb right now.

Never played JK1, but I'm, planning on getting it soon:). By the descriptions, it sounds like one of the best games ever made. Gameplay like that could satisfy a person for years.

To ILR, I totally agree about the running and "munchkin syndrome". Some games make things enourmous with no reason or purpose. Even though this is a game, which as you said does need believability, this is expected from a Starwars title. Some things, like the Deathstar and in this game, the Doomgiver, may be incredibly huge, but these are commented on but, if you have a doorframe insanely bigger than anything that's going to use it, you've proven what a bleack, wasteful, galaxy they live in.

One question to stormhammer, how did you get the edit key in the message box?

Toa Tahu
03-01-2003, 04:09 AM
I don't see why JK and JK2 suffered from the 'munchkin syndrome'.The maps were decently sized to me and I had no difficulty moving around.

No,I don't mean one BIG map like Morrowind,but as if like Morrowind,in the main game levels there were NPC's that would give you certain quests in certain places to do.So you could hop on to Raven's Claw and go there and complete the quest and return to the main quest.

Also,I would like the game to be more 'story-orientated'.No more much action,but something in between Unreal 2 and Morrowind.I didn't mean to say it wasn't a FPS,did I?

MasterHill
03-01-2003, 06:39 AM
Yeah single player cooperation mode so you can get people from the internet to go through levels. You could also choose like a private transport (such as a speeder, swoop bike etc...)

Vairtis
03-01-2003, 08:27 AM
Well about open places I mean you can return to old places and it would be healing from like the thugs that you got rid of and it wasn't level after level it was just one big level and thats that. Also about the big thing it's true there porportions were horrible and there wass only one ship in the whole game you could go into!!!!! I mean the ipmerel (can't spell it) shuttle was so thin there was no way you could have fit into it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't see why they had to lock pritty much everything up every door even on the Ladysluck two doors led to nowhere cuz it was never modeled I mean it was crappy that you couldn't go into the rainering session and there wern't enough doors by themselves locked or unlocked. Where were the students at the jedi academy supose to sleep in there trainering rooms??????????

master_thomas
03-01-2003, 10:48 AM
I think those locked doors are for public and user safety :lol:. The jedi don't want visitors getting hit by a lightsaber or be attacked by one of the seekers. They didn't want you to interfere with what the jedi were doing. Actually, I think they didn't want to have to prove further realism. Standing in front of the guys practicing the force and getting pushed into stuff is not good because it would take away their common sense lol, but your entry could stop them and your exit can start them again. Losing an arm by standing on the duel platform (this could, though, be fixed by having the Jedi move to the waiting positions and have Kyle ask where Luke is. The seeker could have an enemy of a new team the jedi was on and neither attack you.
You are right about the Vairtis. Not only is it too thin for any human to fit inside without lying completely flat. You can also tell that the size is inconsistent because in the cutscenes, you can see Tavion and Jan standing straight up. Not only sizing problems in the shuttle, when Tavion enters it, there is no opening, just a diagnal brush leading up to it. Also, the doors in the Ladyluck did not at all have to be locked. Two small rooms are all that are necessary to limit the player a little less.

StormHammer
03-01-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by master_thomas
One question to stormhammer, how did you get the edit key in the message box?

Heh...very simple, really.

Right click on the button you want, select Properties from the pop-up menu, highlight and copy (CTRL C) the URL of the image...then just paste (CTRL V) the URL between the usual [ IMG] tags. ;)

Anyway...to all you others, I get what you mean about OPEN ENVIRONMENTS now. :D

It's sort of like the HUB system Hexen used to use...where you can revisit areas you have visited before. Half-Life also allowed this to a certain extent. Although it can sometimes mean simply back-tracking (which may become boring if there is nothing extra to do in an area you have already visited) I have to say, I totally agree that it's a good idea. NOLF2 is another example where you can walk between levels freely - if they are interconnected on a particular mission.

Too many games simply lock a door behind you so you can't go back again, and it's pointless. For one thing, I've sometimes left health/ammo pickups in the previous level, and it's silly that I can't go back and pick them up.

The other thing I would not mind seeing is being able to select which 'mission' you want to undertake first. If you think back to Hexen, Quake, and even the Siberia mission of NOLF2, you have a choice of which section of the game you enter next - it does not matter which order you complete the mini-objectives. This makes complete sense to me. Sometimes you may have to complete something in a certain sequence...but you shouldn't have to do that all of the time.

As for scaling - I agree that some games seem to oversize. But I don't think it's such a problem in the Star Wars universe, given the diversity of races, which could potentially be any size. If you look at a game like Unreal, the oversized architecture makes sense, because the local inhabitants are about 8 feet tall. undersizing is another matter, and I agree that sometimes vehicles/ships are simply too small in relation to the size of your player character. Having said that, it's reasonable to assume that in some vehicles you would have to bend over/crouch down when entering them (like a car). Personally, I feel that if they're going to put a vehicle/ship in a game, you as the player should be able to at least open the door and take a look inside, even if you can't drive it.

Vairtis
03-01-2003, 09:30 PM
E X A CT TL Y !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

Vairtis
03-01-2003, 09:37 PM
Oh and by the way after you save the first bunch of prisoners on aruts_topside look at the pillar stormtroopers comeout at and activate noclip go to the top (where the sky texture is) then go forwards if your not in the "imperial shuttle" then look down! And if you pass this on because of me plz mention me cuz I looked the whole map though for it. Also found some other secrets (if you want to know them then just ask).

Toa Tahu
03-02-2003, 12:09 AM
Was it you who enquired about the 'open environments' now?I thought it was some other guy?

Anyway,if's also good if you can access other levels back.Even if they didn't,they should also make good sense why you can't.
As again,in Severance,for one of the first levels,you have to pass throught a wooden bridge.Then,a heavy stone boulder came rolling down,so you had to sidestep it.Safely whizzing through,the boulder tried to cross the ravine but the wooden bridge couldn't stand its weight and broke.That should make more sense than just 'rather simply,or spontaneously locked doors'.

StormHammer
03-02-2003, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by Toa Tahu
As again,in Severance,for one of the first levels,you have to pass throught a wooden bridge.Then,a heavy stone boulder came rolling down,so you had to sidestep it.Safely whizzing through,the boulder tried to cross the ravine but the wooden bridge couldn't stand its weight and broke.That should make more sense than just 'rather simply,or spontaneously locked doors'.

Yes, I remember that bit - a complete Indiana Jones rip-off. :D

You could also argue as to why there was a boulder there in the first place...but that aside, they could simply have used an old rickety bridge that collapses under it's own weight. There are many inventive ways to stop you going back into an area (for whatever reason), such as rock-falls in tunnels, earthquakes splitting the ground, an area being flooded with lava (which happened in Rune) etc. These elements can sometimes add to the gameplay experience...but more often than not they're simply devices to stop you from back-tracking, and half the time they're not needed.

Something springs to mind that one of the team working on Elite Force II recently said in an interview...the development team has so much to do that they just focus on a couple of levels at a time, get those out of the way, then move onto the next couple of levels. If they are simply going through the development process in a sequential way while following the major plot-points, it's hardly surprising that often games are very linear in format. I think they need to take a more holistic view...and that means building in level continuity and back-tracking from the planning stage. It's about not just having one entry point and one exit point...but having more of a hub (or even checker-board or brick-wall) design, where levels can be interconnected in the same way as rooms within those levels.

ILR
03-02-2003, 02:55 PM
When it comes to believability of the level, I think we should all turn to our good lord Half-Life. The game was one giant level, so all prevention of backtracking fit in so natural with the envirnment scarcly anyone realized that they were being cut off from behind. If you couldn't go back, it was because you just jumped off a dam. Prior to the dam you could easily back track several hours of gameplay and it wouldn't phase the game the least bit, due to the ingenious engine.

As for JKII's respect, put a door only when the player can open it. I hated those extremely obscure hidden airducts that lead you to the next area. If there's gotta be some fancy airduct action, then make them as easy to spot as a door.

Toa Tahu
03-03-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by ILR
When it comes to believability of the level, I think we should all turn to our good lord Half-Life. The game was one giant level, so all prevention of backtracking fit in so natural with the environment scarcely anyone realized that they were being cut off from behind. If you couldn't go back, it was because you just jumped off a dam. Prior to the dam you could easily back track several hours of gameplay and it wouldn't phase the game the least bit, due to the ingenious engine.

As for JKII's respect, put a door only when the player can open it. I hated those extremely obscure hidden airducts that lead you to the next area. If there's gotta be some fancy airduct action, then make them as easy to spot as a door.

I totally agree with you in this one,ILR.Your idea sounds sensible and good to implement.Now,if just those playful LEC people would be here to hear this.


Originally posted by StormHammer
Yes, I remember that bit - a complete Indiana Jones rip-off.

Indiana Jones rip-off?How can that be?Severance's story is so much richer than that of Indiana Jones's one(no offence).

Yeah,that would be good too,in a way.Good to visit the old places,and see the corpses(or the polices' reaction to your enemies' corpses!)and then the people(NPC's) from the other level react to what you did.They can also attack you on sight if they don't like what you did or you killed their best friend(before you killed him,you'd be able to see that he was the former's best friend).

Oh yeah,BTW,how come it's only me,StormHammer and ILR that's replying to this topic?Read and reply,m8s!

StormHammer
03-04-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Toa Tahu
Indiana Jones rip-off?How can that be?Severance's story is so much richer than that of Indiana Jones's one(no offence).


I was only referring specifically to the giant boulder...not the rest of the game. ;)

Yeah,that would be good too,in a way.Good to visit the old places,and see the corpses(or the polices' reaction to your enemies' corpses!)and then the people(NPC's) from the other level react to what you did.They can also attack you on sight if they don't like what you did or you killed their best friend(before you killed him,you'd be able to see that he was the former's best friend).

I totally agree. If you start killing in an area, then return to that area later on, you should be recognised by some of the NPCs. They could then run to find the local law enforcement - who should also be investigating the scene of your crime. ;)

They could even do something like in NOLF2...where they start putting up wanted posters. :D

ILR - about Half-Life being just a big leve, yes it did seem like that, even though it was made up of many actual levels spliced seamlessly together. That was one of the game's strengths, and I wish we could see a lot more of that level of continuity in future titles. :cool:

Toa Tahu
03-10-2003, 04:21 AM
Why isn't anyone replying?Please reply,guys.

Anyway,good,if you meant the giant boulder,StormHammer.

"Wanted" posters?Cool,good idea!!! :D

Hey,Stormie(I'll just start calling you Stormie,ok?StormHammer is too long a name,ok?),talking about HL being a huge level,Morrowind is also one that is glued seamlessly together,it's just loading the appropriate area when you go there.

However,I wouldn't like the next 'Jedi' game like that.Remember,you'll have to travel through lush worlds all around the Star Wars universe like (as in JKII)Kejim,Artus,Yavin 4(Pt. 1),Nar Shadaa,....etc.If only the levels in the same planet gets connected some way and you could go there for some quests or just for fun,that would be nice.

As for Saber damage,I just noticed something.Notice that no matter how fast or slow or powerfully any Jedi swings the saber,the damage is the same?That should be the damage system for JK3.Light stance is short range,medium medium,heavy is for wide range.That would be better,provided the damage was the same.Anyone with me here?

ILR
03-10-2003, 03:27 PM
I think different saber stances should be completely omitted in the next game. The lightsaber is weightless (besides the handle), and unless we're in some kind of Star Wars novel, the length never changes as well as the damage it does. If a lightsaber passes through you, the same thing will happen no matter the 'stance'. Sure there can be different STYLES of dueling, but when we start to say things like "in blue stance the saber should do less damage and move faster" then we starting to get ourselves in trouble.

The saber needs to be logical. JKII saber duels is like Chewbacca livin on Endor with two foot Ewoks: IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. One of the most memorable moments in online JKII gaming was when a friend of mine (whose never seen the game before) watches me play a duel.... he says "I don't get it, how can you tell when they get hit?". It was a good question. Saber duels are complex in performance but simplistic to watch. (In the movies, it was pretty clear when someone won a duel :P)

Then I would spend a few minutes explaining that when the saber hits the opponent it does damage, but only a little damage, but if I slash it'll do more, unless he's slashing too and his hits mine then it'll be less or none at all, but if he misses then I do full damage. GAH!! MOUTHFUL! Single Player mode in JKII had exquisit collision detection, and faithful rebound animations when slashes are blocked. If you take a good look at the NPC opponents in SP if you slash at them the moment before your saber makes contact they animate a defensive stance much like Kyle's laser deflection moves. Such an ability was unavailable to the player in all of JKII, which I think is where the game took its biggest hit.