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Carbon_sleeper
02-17-2003, 11:19 PM
Ok. Don't join the dark side because why?
Well, it's quicker. And it's easier. And it's more seductive. And if you join the dark side you get massive power quickly. Let's see... hmmm....well maybe we should look at the specific examples.
People we've seen join the dark side came to total power, got to rule a galaxy, and never had to follow stupid jedi rules of aggression. Ok, so I'll grant if you join the dark side you end up all ugly and yellow-eyed, but really, that's minor considering you rule the known universe!
So dark side perks: It's easier. It's quicker. And you get massive power with less effort.
Dark side cons:..... you get wrinkles and yellow eyes.

Could somebody please explain why anyone in the star wars reality would ever want to go to the light side. I just don't see the reasoning.

wassup
02-18-2003, 01:37 AM
*In a dark and menacing voice

"Because the Dark Side is eeeeeeeeeevvvvilll"

OK enuf kdding around. The Dark Side is just bad. Would you rather be a unruly dictator who imposes their own wills upon others with an iron fist or be the wise, all-knowing, mature master? OK that was a idiotic question...:rolleyes:

But seriously, to be a Jedi is to be able to control your own emotions and feelings instead of letting them spill out of control, thus gaining a new and higher perspective of life and the Force. Sure, you may be able to control the galaxy, sure you may be powerful, sure you may even be able to employ hot Sith chicks as bodyguards :naughty: ...but you will never reach another level because you will believe that you are already all-powerful. Your dark emotions will blind your path and connection with life and use the Force as a destructive tool to impose your will upon others. Thus, you are led to the belief that nobody can stop you, until some hotshot pilot who was once a farmboy comes up with a lightsaber and pwns your A$$. :p

Therefore, if you embrace the Light Side, you will be able to always gain knowledge and understanding from the Force and reach a higher summit of wisdom and power. You will gain a fuller and more complete understanding of life, the Force, and yourself. Should you choose the path of the Dark Side, your dark hatred and anger will blind your vision and perceptions of the past, present, and future, and a barrier will be created between you and further understanding and knowledge. But you do get the universe. And hot chicks. And an apprentice who has the face resembling the corpse of your dead great-grandmother and whos also in serious need of some asthma medication... :vadar:

Note: I have no idea what I was just talking about

boinga1
02-18-2003, 06:37 PM
because in ep1 or be4, 10,000 or more jedi will rise up to kill you. because :yoda: will whoop your tail. because the only sith we se rule for only 21 years be4 a farmboy beats them. because, in ep1 or be4, you have to hide in dark alleys, waiting for the master to die so you can train a new apprentice to do the same, whiel ypou have no patience because you are sp hateful. BECAUSE IT IS WRONG!!

Tie Guy
02-18-2003, 08:16 PM
Alright, ;et me explain it to ya I've done a lot of Force theorizing (for books and otehr stuff i do), and its really a simple explanation.

There is no Dark Side. If you use the Force to kill and for power it is not a different energy that you are using, you are just using it differently.

The darkness comes from within, from the heart and soul. One can use the Force to help others, while another can use it to dominate others. The difference is, as i said, how it is used. A person with evil intentions, one who lets pasion control his heart and mind, one who seeks power, can use the Force to do terrible things, but the Force is the same.

Now, those who obtain power, in this case the Force, seek to use it. It is our very nature, and it is the "Dark Side." That is why it is more seductive. Using that power includes ruling, and dominating the World around you, but that is never enough. If you use power, you'll ultimately need more, for fear and control require power to maintain, and greater power to exceed. Those who use their power, seek more of it. A greater power, a greater anger, a greater control is required and sought after, leading you further down into the darkness inside you. When you obtain a higher power, you seek to use it, and the cycle continues.

This cycle, often referred to as the cycle of greed or the cycle of power, is destructive. As you obtain greater and greater power your heart and soul, your self is eaten away. Its like an addiction. And what happens when you need more power than you can obtain? What happens when you need more power than your body and mind can handle? That is when you lose it all. Those who seek everything end up with nothing.

A Jedi is the complete opposite. He trains hard to control his nature, the temptation of greed and power, and he is able to overcome it. Because he needs nothing more to be complete, he is at peace, his heart is pure, and the Force supplies him with whatever he desires. A Master of the light is "one with the Force," to use a cliche. His mind an soul seek knowledge and understanding, not power or control. He seeks sustain life, not destroy it, and that is why the light will aloways prevail. The Force is life, and all life is the Force. The Force aids those who preserve it, it betrays those who destroy it. It is the very nature of power. For that is what the Force is. It is energy, power, and nothing more. Those who use it wisely, always triumph over those who squander it.

The concept of Light and Dark "sides" is a usefull training guide, and that is all. The Light Side is a list, so to speak, of virtues to good and pure use of the Force. The Dark Side is all those that lead down the path of destruction. It is the best way to quanitfy usage of the Force, and that is why it is used.

wassup
02-18-2003, 09:10 PM
Bah...Vergere you crazy bird...:rolleyes:

lets keep this discussion within the OT since the forum this thread in is called "Classic Trilogy". That means there are Dark Side and Light Side of the Force. Thank you...

Tie Guy
02-19-2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by wassup
Bah...Vergere you crazy bird...:rolleyes:

lets keep this discussion within the OT since the forum this thread in is called "Classic Trilogy". That means there are Dark Side and Light Side of the Force. Thank you...

No, not neccessarily. Yoda classifies traits as the Dark Side, he never says that it is a portion of the Force. In fact, i'm pretty sure Yoda never even says the words "Light Side." I don't think "light side" is ever mentioned, period, in the movies.

Luke is new to the Force, he needs the distinction to guard himself from falling into the traps.

The truth is, it is never explained fully in regards to light and dark, so you certainly can't assume anything just from watching the movies. I'm just saying what makes logical sense.

Oh, and i didn't get it from Vergere. I started writing before i read traitor or whatever book she says that in.

Carbon_sleeper
02-21-2003, 07:24 PM
Obi Wan in Ep 4: "Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force..."

(Episode 5) Luke: "But how will I know the good side from the bad?"

Yoda: "You will know..."

So the good and bad, light and dark sides are pretty clearly referenced. I mean, really, the core of the films is a good vs evil theme. but hey, it's cool to speculate. I was really being rather sardonic when I started this post anyway. ;)

Pedro The Hutt
02-24-2003, 12:00 PM
And another problem of the dark side, you might never know when you'll get betrayed and get yourself killed. >.>

Tie Guy
02-24-2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Carbon_sleeper
Obi Wan in Ep 4: "Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force..."

(Episode 5) Luke: "But how will I know the good side from the bad?"

Yoda: "You will know..."

So the good and bad, light and dark sides are pretty clearly referenced. I mean, really, the core of the films is a good vs evil theme. but hey, it's cool to speculate. I was really being rather sardonic when I started this post anyway. ;)


Alright, so tell me where in the movies the words "light side" are used. They aren't. The "Light Side" is not clearly defined. The Dark Side is talked about, but not necessarily as a separate entity that takes hold of people. It is evil, that is all that is said.

Carbon_sleeper
02-26-2003, 12:39 AM
First off, let me say I'm just going on for the fun of the debate. You're possibly right... from a certain point of view ;)

But just because the words "light side" aren't spoken, doesn't mean its not referenced. I'm mean the words "Good side" are spoken. When Luke says "how will I know the good side from the bad?" Yoda doesn't say, "well, actually there is no good side." He says "You will know," which positively acknowledges the existence of such a side.

And when Vader asks luke to "Join the dark side" he's pretty clearly referencing a very seperate incarnation of Luke's chosen path.

Also, Star Wars is not about shades of gray. It's metaphoric. Sure, some of the characters (Han, Lando) dance that line, but the overall theme is a simple Good vs Evil. Anakin's story is of a fall and ultimate redemption. If the ideology we're debating here was a part of the real story, then Anakin may not have ever come back, because he would've rationalized his actions and never considered his actions evil. Luckily, star wars isn't about that. It's a pure, fun blast. And there is a Light side and Dark side.

If you think I'm wrong, well, I just hate you.
Kidding. You're approach to the force is something I've actually argued in favor of in other debates. You see, the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of views. ;)

Lynk Former
02-26-2003, 02:58 AM
The Darkside

Cons: You'll end up losing in the end

Tie Guy
02-26-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Carbon_sleeper
First off, let me say I'm just going on for the fun of the debate. You're possibly right... from a certain point of view ;)

But just because the words "light side" aren't spoken, doesn't mean its not referenced. I'm mean the words "Good side" are spoken. When Luke says "how will I know the good side from the bad?" Yoda doesn't say, "well, actually there is no good side." He says "You will know," which positively acknowledges the existence of such a side.

Well, Luke needs a definately drawn line so he can avoid a direct confrontation with it. Without clear indications, he would have fallen for sure.

And you would know if you are falling to darkness within yourself. Don't you, at first at least, feel cold and guilty when you have done something wrong? That is why Yoda says, "You will know." And the effect would be mulitplied with such energy coursing through your veins.




And when Vader asks luke to "Join the dark side" he's pretty clearly referencing a very seperate incarnation of Luke's chosen path.

Well, actually Vader says "Join me...and together we will rule the galxy as father and son." He never actually says "join the Dark Side" i don't think.



Also, Star Wars is not about shades of gray. It's metaphoric. Sure, some of the characters (Han, Lando) dance that line, but the overall theme is a simple Good vs Evil. Anakin's story is of a fall and ultimate redemption. If the ideology we're debating here was a part of the real story, then Anakin may not have ever come back, because he would've rationalized his actions and never considered his actions evil. Luckily, star wars isn't about that. It's a pure, fun blast. And there is a Light side and Dark side.

I, naturally, disagree. Anikan could still rid his being of darkness despite rationalizations (which would be made no matter whether there is a "dark side" or not), because of his love for his son. Love triumphs, ultimately, over evil. The good in his heart, the lover for his son, overcame the lust for power strangling his soul.

And who says there aren't shades of grey? Anikan kills an entire group of Tuskens, and he doesn't fall to the "dark side" then, he just moves a little further into the grey. I'd say the evil and, in this case, despair are slowly eating away his heart, leading him deeper into darkness and temptation. Luke attacks Vader in anger, but he does not fall, wouldn't that be grey? The movies are filled with examples of "grey" behavior. It cerrtainly is a dualistic principle, but that doesn't mean there is no middle ground.

Pnut_Man
02-27-2003, 08:04 AM
Vergere, great Jedi Knight from the Old Republic :D

In the end I think the lightside is the most achieving state of the force. It has been said that the darkside uses you to do its bidding. Remember Ben's conversation with Luke on the ride to Alderaan? "You mean it can control your actions?" I can't recall the exact lines but I remember Ben's saying...

Tie Guy
02-27-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Pnut_Master
Vergere, great Jedi Knight from the Old Republic :D

In the end I think the lightside is the most achieving state of the force. It has been said that the darkside uses you to do its bidding. Remember Ben's conversation with Luke on the ride to Alderaan? "You mean it can control your actions?" I can't recall the exact lines but I remember Ben's saying...

He says, "partially, but it also obeys your commands.

I'm pretty sure what that means is that the Force can directly guide you in your actions, but you ultimately do what you want to with it.

Jo
02-27-2003, 05:59 PM
Im with tie guy. there is no sides to the force. the sides are all in your head. you can be a jedi and still use lightening, EX: in one book luke used the mind hold trick(darkside trick) against a stormtrooper on the Chimera. and he is a jedi. in the end the force is all living things, good or evil. so this means that all force powers are usable by jedi and sith. like i said im with tie guy on this, i got most of my ideas from the recent NJO books..like Traitor and Destinys Way..


therefore, approve his posts will i...

dark jedi 8
02-27-2003, 06:46 PM
i'll go with what Masterjo2588 said. i agree that you choose what to do with the force, it's an energy field that surrounds everything, you do with it what you want.

LiMP RABBiT
02-28-2003, 06:59 AM
Jedis only stay as jedis because without them the script would be s**t. And for those who cant work out what that shoud mean it rhymes with 'bit' and is another word for excrement.

Carbon_sleeper
02-28-2003, 08:31 PM
the points everyone is making are good points. I just think they belong in the EU more than the films. The movies really are about good guys and bad guys. The force is an awesome concept, but I think we're over analyzing. I mean really, to say there are no sides to the force is a little much. Luke, Vader, Obi wan, yoda, and George Lucas all talk about the sides, and which one is better. When every major character, and the creator, commonly talk aa dark side, and then for us to say there is no side is a good example of overthinking a concept. I mean, really, it's pretty hard to say that there are no sides to the force, when you watch the movies. There are sides.

Darth Damage
02-28-2003, 08:49 PM
the dark side screws with u...it makes u old and nappy like palpy

Tie Guy
03-01-2003, 11:19 AM
There is a dark side, CS, its just not a separate entitiy of the Force. The dark side resides within each person, not the Force itself.

Carbon_sleeper
03-01-2003, 09:33 PM
I agree with what you're saying. If you're saying there's only one Force, but whether it's light or dark depends on what you do with it. Actually (warning EU reference ahead) I read that in the Darth Maul book as one of the basic Sith principles. But I submit that the Jedi themselves don't see it that way. They see it as more of 2 very separate sides of an entity. I mean really, the force is their religion. The Jedi see it as 2 different things. Ben doesn't say, "Vader chose to use the force for evil." Ben says, "Vader was seduced by the dark side of the force." As in the force sought him out and lured him over.

I'm just being argumentative, btw. but you gotta admit it's a close debate. not one of those "star wars sucks. get a life." and then "Oh yeah, well YOU get a life. why you in here if you hate it."... kind of debates.