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Lime-Light
02-25-2003, 03:20 PM
I read an article a while back, but for the life of me I cant find it. Either way, its irrelevant, what it displayed through common and obvious evidence was the real reason Bush wants war.

Oil. The US has the largest trade debt in the world. US citizens arent buying. The US economy is swaying precariously (sp?) on the sale of oil, and its starting to tip over.

For some time, the currency of oil has been the US dollar, because its more stable than the currency of most oil exporting countries, and its common. Iraq just recently (some time last year) switched to the Euro for its sale of oil, and that has jeopardized the US economy. The Euro is steadily gaining worth (and more importantly, use) while the US dollar drops. The US government can make no changes at home that will stabilize the coming fall, so they look outward. They aim to invade Iraq, and gain control of its government so it can switch them back to US currency for oil.

Now, invading a country to steal its resources is not something that will make you popular, and especially with those (like Euro-users, perhaps) who stand to get ass-****ed if you do. What to do? Simply invent a threat. Bring them on your side so you can ass-**** them quietly while they cower in fear of some evil threat. Protect them with your big army, and fund it by stealing from them.

C'jais
02-25-2003, 04:44 PM
Behind every war there's an underlying, shady motive of profitting from it in some way, even if it's just to secure stability in the region that one's country can take advantage from.

While oil certainly plays a role, I don't think the 'mericans are only in it for that. They genuinely believe in what they do (at least Bush does), and see themselves as great presevers of freedom. I'll let them have that, as Saddam clearly is a mad, unreliable leader (though it's been hyped to huge, unreasonable heights).

I just wish they'd care to look at the consequences of USA stepping on more arab toes down there. They're going to ignite the smoldering hatred for America, and I could easily imagine retaliations on Israel or Kuwait.

My advice is to save those resources, and pour them on the solving the Palestine-Israel conflict, or perhaps to do something about Pakistan or N. Korea if you're so hell-bent on getting rid of nukes.

munik
02-25-2003, 06:36 PM
I'm pretty sure that everyone said we were doing it for oil the last time we fought Iraq. We really must have done a good job, considering the price of gasoline doubled in 10 years. I wonder what kind of spoils of war we're gonna get this time. A kick in the nuts maybe?

I wouldn't have any problem if the U.S. went in and occupied the mid-east for the sole purpose of oil. Maybe make another territory or something. Hell, if it was up to me, I would have done it about 30 years ago, when there was a fuel crisis. If another country has got you by the balls in a situation such as this, why not just invade and occupy, especially if you are well capable of doing so?

Sadly, I doubt the U.S. will gain anything in the form of cheaper oil. Maybe this war is solely based on political gain, as are most conflicts by the U.S. Apparently, if you do well, it is a surefire way to get re-elected.

obi
02-25-2003, 07:42 PM
We're going to get their weapons, their oil, and their little dog, too! eeeee hehehehehehe!

Despite what the war is about, it will happen. I hate to sound like the pessamist, but that's how I feel. No matter how many people protest, no matter what the cause, it will happen. No way to prevent it.

El Sitherino
02-25-2003, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
We're going to get their weapons, their oil, and their little dog, too! eeeee hehehehehehe!
you stole my saying. :mad: grrrr.... oh well.

Reborn Outcast
02-25-2003, 09:46 PM
Yes as Obi has said. This war will happen, whether we want it or not. And after Iraq is taken, Bush will reveal his true intentions.

dark jedi 8
02-25-2003, 09:54 PM
i didn't think he was smart enough to have intentions, its probably for the oil, could be wrong though, just a guess.

ET Warrior
02-26-2003, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
I read an article a while back, but for the life of me I cant find it. Either way, its irrelevant, what it displayed through common and obvious evidence was the real reason Bush wants war.

Oil. The US has the largest trade debt in the world. US citizens arent buying. The US economy is swaying precariously (sp?) on the sale of oil, and its starting to tip over.

For some time, the currency of oil has been the US dollar, because its more stable than the currency of most oil exporting countries, and its common. Iraq just recently (some time last year) switched to the Euro for its sale of oil, and that has jeopardized the US economy. The Euro is steadily gaining worth (and more importantly, use) while the US dollar drops. The US government can make no changes at home that will stabilize the coming fall, so they look outward. They aim to invade Iraq, and gain control of its government so it can switch them back to US currency for oil.

Now, invading a country to steal its resources is not something that will make you popular, and especially with those (like Euro-users, perhaps) who stand to get ass-****ed if you do. What to do? Simply invent a threat. Bring them on your side so you can ass-**** them quietly while they cower in fear of some evil threat. Protect them with your big army, and fund it by stealing from them.

What? This war is about OIL?!?!?! That's AMAZING!!! How did you come up with this theory? [/immense sarcasm];)

Though i agree with C'jais, that it's not JUST about oil. That's an added bonus for doing something that we probably would have done anyways.

Lime-Light
02-26-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
What? This war is about OIL?!?!?! That's AMAZING!!! How did you come up with this theory? [/immense sarcasm];)

Though i agree with C'jais, that it's not JUST about oil. That's an added bonus for doing something that we probably would have done anyways.

Um, maybe you didnt read the rest of what I said, or just pretended to read it, but I know oil is the obvious reason. What I was talking about was the economic reasoning behind it, and the real reason Iraq is considered a "threat". And about political gains, yes I forgot to mention that even if the US falls into depression, St. Idiot Bush will be seen as a patriotic hero for squashing this "threat". But hopefuly some poeple will realize that for a recognized nation and its government to attack the US is suicide, and that no matter how nuts Saddam is, he's not stupid, just nuts.

One thing I dislike about the US is the knee-jerk reaction for war. Nobody is really going to attack us in a conventional manner, so fighting it in a conventional matter is stupid, and it makes us even more unpopular.

I think the root of this whole terror thing is hippocrisy. The terrorists hate us for war mongering and wealth, while they steal and kill poeple. The US is afriad of attack from terrorists, so they kill poeple for wealth.

What really needs to happen, as with all conflicts, is compromise. How do you compromise with lunatics and zealots? I dont know, but somebody better ****ing figure it out.

(four to go, wooooooo)

Reborn Outcast
02-26-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
Um, maybe you didnt read the rest of what I said, or just pretended to read it, but I know oil is the obvious reason.

Bush hasnt announced it because it would take away any reason for a war because the UN wouldnt allow it. So you ASSUME, not KNOW.

Lime-Light
02-26-2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
...you ASSUME, not KNOW.

Ok, its PROBABLE. I dont KNOW that if I eat a razor blade it'll kill me, but its PROBABLE.

Does anyone have something to say about the topic?

ET Warrior
02-26-2003, 07:56 PM
no comments, we already knew all of this, and it's been discussed already..........a LOT

but I know oil is the obvious reason

Yes.....so do I.......

Lime-Light
02-26-2003, 09:22 PM
Hey....uh...I mean, you guys are mean.

I've presented some logical evidence as to the reason for the war. You already assumed it was oil, and so when I presented some actual evidence to support that, you consider it old news. Anyone can assume or form an opinion.

Reborn Outcast
02-26-2003, 10:25 PM
Lime no offense but just because you don't get 100 replies for a topic that has actually already been discussed before doesn't make us mean.

And yes, I agree that everything you said is probably a factor. So do most of the other people who replied it seems. Only when I see something that I don't agree with or I know otherwise will I form an opinion. But why post a whole thing just rewording what you said and call i tmy opinion. I agree with your opinion.

SkinWalker
02-27-2003, 01:40 AM
Actually, oil was the assumption that I rejected for a long time as reason for war with Iraq. I just couldn't see how it factored in:
1) When Saddam is conquered and Iraq is "freed" from his oppression, they won't just give us the oil. We'll still have to pay for it.
2) In paying for the oil (that we already were able to, since Iraq has been exporting it to us), it is unlikely that the price will be advantageous because a) OPEC will still have say so in the price and b) a lowered price with increased production would threaten other, friendly oil-producing nations like Venezuela.
3) It's likely that aggression toward Iraq will result in Saddam sabotaging the oil fields as he did in Kuwait (it was effective... I coughed up black sh*t for weeks).


But then I read this essay (http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html), which highlights the idea that war with Iraq will prevent OPEC from continuing to move toward the Euro as an oil transaction currency rather than the dollar.

It's an interesting read. I haven't fully bought it yet, as I am still reading the essay. But I did skim it fairly well and the essay's references seem to be legitimate at first glance.

It is possible that this is a biased essay, designed to create dissention and that the references are biased as well. But is equally possible that the essay is reporting an opinion based upon the author's interpretation of what he's gleaned from his listed sources.

Either way.... I'm of the opinion that oil sucks. Can't live with it, can't live without. Not in today's consumer oriented culuture.

SkinWalker

BTW, LimeLight... this may be the story/article you referred to originally.

ShadowTemplar
03-04-2003, 01:15 PM
Follow the money...

Although completely suppressed by the U.S. media and government, the answer to the Iraq enigma is simple yet shocking

Statements like this one always make me frown slightly. But maybe it's just because I have seen too many lame creationist conspiracy hypothesises starting with that phrase.

BTW: Iran has publicly kicked out the UN weapons inspectors from their nuclear program, and all the while they admit that they have been mining and refining Uranium... Methinks the US should talk with their insane Priest-rulers before 'negotiating' with Hussein.

C'jais
03-08-2003, 12:02 PM
Have any of you heard the news about the two Taleban prisoners getting tortured to death in a prison camp during interrogations, while the guv'mint covered it up as suicide?

If true, it speaks volumes.

obi
03-08-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
Have any of you heard the news about the two Taleban prisoners getting tortured to death in a prison camp during interrogations, while the guv'mint covered it up as suicide?


I haven't heard of it, got a link?

If this is true, however, then the people doing the torturing are going against what America was supposed to fight for in the first place.

C'jais
03-08-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
I haven't heard of it, got a link?

Sorry, I read it in a Danish newspaper.

Although I could find the newspaper's website, I somehow doubt you'd be interested in reading gibberish (:

SkinWalker
03-08-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
I haven't heard of it, got a link?

If this is true, however, then the people doing the torturing are going against what America was supposed to fight for in the first place.

Try this link (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/ISL243253?view=PrinterFriendly). There was NOTHING in the US Press that I could locate. Interesting indeed.

SkinWalker

C'jais
03-08-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by SkinWalker
Try this link (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/ISL243253?view=PrinterFriendly). There was NOTHING in the US Press that I could locate. Interesting indeed.

SkinWalker

Holy ****. I seriously thought it was just a rumour blown to epic proportions by that (dubious, I might add) newspaper.

However, they were a bit far off in their conclusions, if this was what they based the article on.

They also wrote that US interrogators use such "stress and pressure" tactics, such as not treating their wounds, subjecting them to bright light and loud noises, and making them stand up blinded for several hours (as noted in the link).

Thanks Skin.

El Sitherino
03-08-2003, 08:36 PM
oh i choose choice 4: bush must be smokin some varnish soaked weed.

Cosmos Jack
03-13-2003, 12:49 PM
Well regardless of all the stuff written above here is the truth of the matter. Being the history guy that I am I can recall a similar situation.

There was once this country that was defeated in a war and it was forbidden to have weapons or a military of any kind. along comes this guy and takes over. He starts building up the countries military again. All the countries around it don't want to enforce the treaty that was imposed on the country because nobody wants another terrible war. The U.S. not wanting to get involved this time tries to encourage the countries around them to do something about the treaty breaking. They don't so the upstart country starts making pease treaties with the countries around them. Saying there not going to go to war with them. At the same time invading other countries one after another. Tell they get to the countries they made treaties with a bomb them to hell....

It may sound slightly similar. Not totally because Iraq hasn't been given the opportunity, but it's Germany 1940's and Hitler is in power.

I agree with most people lets not go to war and leave Iraq alone. Let him have his anthrax, let him have his Nukes who cares as long as he doesn't bother us right. Let him kill his own people and invade other countries when he feels like it. Hell I say we pull all are troops from all the countries of the world and cut of all diplomatic funding to 3rd world starving countries. Let the rest of the world handle there own problems after all Europe could have handled Hitler without us right lol

History will never repeat itself. :rolleyes:

SkinWalker
03-13-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
There was once this country that was defeated in a war and it was forbidden to have weapons or a military of any kind.....

...History will never repeat itself. :rolleyes:

Gosh! I don't think I've seen Saddam compared to Hitler before... since you put it that way... perhaps I was wrong about the whole situation. Perhaps the United Nations Security Council (which didn't exist in 1940) is, actually, incapable of monitoring and inspecting (which was not done in 1940 Germany).

Perhaps world pressure isn't enough to keep a lone dictator in check (Quadaffi and Castro are flukes).

Perhaps the military forces of today's nations cannot react quickly (in 1940, the jet engine did not exist).

Perhaps it would be difficult to know what's going on behind the Iraqi border (can you imagine U-2 surveillance and sat photos in 1940?).

Man, I'm glad I read your analogy! I'd have never looked at it from that perspective.....

SkinWalker

C'jais
03-13-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
It may sound slightly similar. Not totally because Iraq hasn't been given the opportunity, but it's Germany 1940's and Hitler is in power.

Hussein is no Hitler. You can't make a case on comparing him to another tyrant. While he does have the capability, he doesn't have the intent.

In fact, apart from recently, Iraq has had their state and church seperated far more the US. That he's cooperating with the fundamentalist Al queda is ridiculous - it should be obivous that they hate each other's guts from this.

Iraq has no nukes. Israel has a running nuclear program and nuclear armaments.

Washington sought to protect Israel from a resolution condemning Israel for one of its attacks on its neighbors. Since then, the United has cast its veto a total of 38 times to shield Israel from Council draft resolutions that condemned, deplored, denounced, affirmed, endorsed, called upon and urged Israel to obey the world body.

38 times, ladies and gentlemen. And USA has the guts to call France traitors.

Hell I say we pull all are troops from all the countries of the world and cut of all diplomatic funding to 3rd world starving countries.

Oh, you refer to peace keeping missions? USA does nothing of the sort compared to the rest of the UN. As witnessed in Afghanistan, the US is way more into arse-kicking, than arse-building... errr.... but you get my point, I hope.

What do you expect will happen once Hussein is out of power? He's the only leader capable of keeping the country together. There is no "Iraqi people" to speak of - only Kurds, Sunnis, Shi'ites and Saudis who all want a slice of the oil cake once this war is over. Do you expect democracy can be forced at gunpoint just like that? That there will somehow be less terrorist actions after that little incident?

Let the rest of the world handle there own problems after all Europe could have handled Hitler without us right lol

Wow, that's a good point.

If it wasn't for Europe, you wouldn't even exist today, for better or worse.

SkinWalker
03-13-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by C'jais


If it wasn't for Europe, you wouldn't even exist today, for better or worse.

Or maybe I would be speaking Cherokee. :p

Cosmos Jack
03-13-2003, 03:17 PM
Comparing Hussany wainy to Hitler is there anybody else he is more like? He isn't like Hitler huh? Well did you forget the Gulf War or were you alive at that time ?

He invaded Kuwait for there oil supply he had a long drawn out war with Iran so after a stale mate there he invaded Kuwait to build back his losses, but that's not like Hitler invading his neighbors is it. No its not. Hitler was let alone while he went from small country to small country lol Hessian was stopped by the US and has been kept in check by us for the past decade.

Hussain is not like Hitler here ither killing his own people. Hitler just killed Jews in his own country that's ok right. Hussain killed the families of the people against him. He has used gas on his own people. What would happen here if we had used nerve gas on the protestors of the Rodney King Trial lol

Hussain even cam to power in a vary similar way to Hitler and keeps the same kind of controlled on his Country. Hitler was just more popular in Germany people thought he was the best there lol

The truth about Hitler is if you took away all the crap he did he was the most productive leader Germany had had for a long time and he really got the economy moving. Hell you can't even say that for Hussany

The truth of the matter is he has the intent he wants the capability. Hmm the terrorist and Iraq hate each other ? Have you ever heard the saying the enemy of my enemy is my friend ?

The UN doesn't have the balls to make the hard choices and never has. Europe couldn't handle Hitler they can't handle Hussain and when the hell has France not got there but kicked in war besides the time of Napoleon.

And if it wasn't for the USA. Europe would have been wiped out by Hitler and than he would have gone for the rest of the world. We would all be Nazis and Hitler's grandson would be running the show

One more thing there was jets before 1940. Germany had developed them. Hitler didn't think they would be of any use so they weren't implimited tell the end of the war as a last ditch effort. They were also close to making a Atom Bomb wonder how the world would be if they had done it 1st lol

Iraq has seperation of church and state lol. So your saying killing your own people is ok as long as you have seperation of church and state. lol

Cosmos Jack
03-13-2003, 03:31 PM
One more thing if you people don't like the US or what it does. It is a free country leave.......Go to Iraq sence you love it so much :D

Breton
03-13-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
Hitler was just more popular in Germany people thought he was the best there lol


What's that "lol"? Why is it funny thay they supported Hitler? Its not that they were dumb or anything, they just thought he was right. If I would live in Germany at the time of Hitler it is extremely likely that I would join the rest of the gang and supported Hitler, he did his propaganda real well, and no one's immune to propaganda. And then we have the fact that people fear him too. If any of you belives that if you lived in Germany before and while WW2 you would think of Hitler as people think of him today, then you are not really truthful.

Hmm the terrorist and Iraq hate each other ? Have you ever heard the saying the enemy of my enemy is my friend ?

I've heard about it, but it's not true.

The UN doesn't have the balls to make the hard choices and never has.

If you support Bush, don't talk about others not having the balls. You know why Bush&US wants to attack Saddam? Because they're dead afraid of him. It takes real guts to not attack him.

And if it wasn't for the USA. Europe would have been wiped out by Hitler and than he would have gone for the rest of the world. We would all be Nazis and Hitler's grandson would be running the show

Don't talk BS. GB was still strong enough to last a while, and after Hitler attacked Sovjet, he was constantly being pulled back on the east front, and they would eventually have taken Berlin. And anyway, no matter how successful they would be, a nazi empire would never last more than a few years.

One more thing if you people don't like the US or what it does. It is a free country leave.......Go to Iraq sence you love it so much

Thanks, but no thanks, I prefer it up here in Norway.

Luc Solar
03-13-2003, 04:24 PM
Oh man... please drop the Hitler-analogy already.

It means nothing.

>>>

Hitler's middle name is Habib just like Saddam's!!
They both prefer wearing boxers!?!
Hitler was born on the 4th of January whereas Saddam was born on the 1st of April! 1 and 4, 4 and 1 - coincidence??? I DON'T THINK SO! :rolleyes:
And if you add the last two digits of Saddam's year of birth to the number of days Hitler was waging war you get a total of 666!

And they both drink their coffee black!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

OMG-OMG HOW 'BOUT THAT! Now me surely must kill all Iraqi people! Let'z go! Who's with me??

...What? My logic is flawed? .... :confused: noo.. can't be? :rolleyes:

Cosmos Jack
03-13-2003, 04:42 PM
Personally I like how the mindset of everyone is basically the same as before WW2. Its interesting the people never learn anything from the past.

Well it wont happen again because the militaries respond faster or we have the bad guys under constant surveillance.. Whatever your reasoning.

Hmm afraid of Hussian you say well. Bush probably is afraid. Of what can happen if he gets what he wants.

Hussain wants to be like Hitler. Hitler wanted to be like Napoleon. Napoleon wanted to be like the Caesars lol They all almost succeed each time and all because people like the ones on this forum turn there heads and say they're not that bad. They wont ever amount to anything.

Each time we give in and when it comes to the point where there has to be a war. More people would have died than if we had nipped them in the bud in the beginning. Imagine all the lives that would have been saved if Europe had enforced the treaty on Germany with force before Hitler built up his military. Instead of trying to talk him down. Maybe Iraq isn't all that much of a threat if only because of the US.....Just leave him alone now and give him 5 or 10 years than lets have a Bang up of a war were millions die and Nukes are used.

For the most part I see a lot of US bashing from people in other countries on here and when it all adds up you don't like the US because of your own countries "propaganda". Lets a terrorist fly a plain into one your large buildings and see how your countries react... Assuming you are in counties that can build large buildings that is.

As for the people here who are against the US Hope you don't live next to any large sky scrapers because the terrorist don't care if your for or against your country they just want to kill you because your an American, because of the "propaganda" they are led to beleave.

Cosmos Jack
03-13-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar

...What? My logic is flawed? .... :confused: noo.. can't be? :rolleyes:

Yep looks pretty screwed up to me.......can you even define logic :confused:

Cosmos Jack
03-13-2003, 05:00 PM
You don't want to kill Iraqy people.......:confused: If thats all we wanted to do. We would just leave Hussein alone.

Ahhh I see its ok for Hussein to do it, becouse he is there dictatore. I get it now I see what your all saying. Who cares what kind of ruller he is to his own people let them handle him lol
ok ok let him kill his own people great idea :cool:

griff38
03-13-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
Yep looks pretty screwed up to me.......can you even define logic :confused:

Hey,

I think he was being sarcastic.

griff38
03-13-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
One more thing if you people don't like the US or what it does. It is a free country leave.......Go to Iraq sence you love it so much :D


Wow, what a interesting idea!

Love it er Leave it, hmmmmm no. Instead I'll stay and try to make it a good place for everyone not just the lucky or privileged.

Cosmos Jack
03-13-2003, 05:16 PM
Well I have never been Lucky or Privileged and had to work for everything I want or have.....I like the US just fine other than the hippies and the gang bangers. as far Luc Solar being sarcastic I knew he reread my comment a few times.
Originally posted by griff38
Hey,

I think he was being sarcastic.

Breton
03-13-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
For the most part I see a lot of US bashing from people in other countries on here and when it all adds up you don't like the US because of your own countries "propaganda".

Don't talk to me about propaganda. The country I live in has been neutral all the way until WW2 (when it was forced unto the allied side, as it was occupied by the Germans), and has remained pretty neutral after that, especially in the last years. Here, you'll get to see cases from both sides of view. I do not say it's 100% free of propaganda, but don't accuse others of being affected by it when you live in a country where the largest newspapers says France and Germany is siding with Saddam.

Imagine all the lives that would have been saved if Europe had enforced the treaty on Germany with force before Hitler built up his military. Instead of trying to talk him down.

Germany would've attacked anyway, I suppose. They were mighty pissed after WW1, mostly because of the treatment France, UK and US gave it after the war. And how many unnessisary wars would have started if everyone bombed first and asked later? Pretty many. Actually, a lot of wars have been started that way, wars that could easily be avoided if the parts sat down and talked.

Lets a terrorist fly a plain into one your large buildings and see how your countries react... Assuming you are in counties that can build large buildings that is.

:rolleyes: Just because a country doesn't need to build large buildings doesn't mean they can't.

Cosmos Jack
03-13-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn

Germany would've attacked anyway, I suppose. They were mighty pissed after WW1, mostly because of the treatment France, UK and US gave it after the war. And how many unnessisary wars would have started if everyone bombed first and asked later? Pretty many. Actually, a lot of wars have been started that way, wars that could easily be avoided if the parts sat down and talked. [I]can't.

Norway lol need I type more.......YES

I bet you justifyed 911 didn't you.......

You are real screwed in the head justifying the Nazis in any shape form or fashion..... Gee lets go a tad bit further we wouldn't have gone to the moon if it wasn't for Nazis rockets. We wouldn't have jet plains if it wasn't for the Nazis. We wouldn't know exactly how much heat the body can take before you die if it wasn't for the Nazis......

WOW we do oh a lot to them don't we. I guess its a good thing countries like yours with its mindset set by and let them happen. because its better to let them BOMB you 1st rather than take them out before they kill you. That's a Great Idea.

"Sat down and talked" not everyone wants to do that you know. If I want to kick your ass and take you crap asking me to set down and talk isn't going to stop me :rolleyes: Why don't you go hang out in the Bronks of NY and when some guy comes up and says give me your wallet ask him to set down and talk lol :D PLEASE !!!! Now take that guy with the gun and give him controle of a country called IRAQ

Don't get me wrong I like countries like yours... Okinawa had that same idea back a few hundred years ago. Japan walked right in and said guess what your belong to us now lol

C'jais
03-13-2003, 06:02 PM
Jack, don't push it.

This goes for all of you - I've seen enough national stereotyping. Add personal insults to that, and I'll get mightily pissed.

Cosmos Jack
03-13-2003, 06:48 PM
Ok :rolleyes: So its ok to bad talk countries and poeple as long as it is the USA and Americans I'm bad mouthing :confused:

Don't get me wrong, but thats the impression I have of this hole post.......:mad:

El Sitherino
03-13-2003, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
Ok :rolleyes: So its ok to bad talk countries and poeple as long as it is the USA and Americans I'm bad mouthing :confused:

Don't get me wrong, but thats the impression I have of this hole post.......:mad: :eyeraise: i think he doesnt realise how things work. meh.

Cosmos Jack
03-13-2003, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by InsaneSith
:eyeraise: i think he doesnt realise how things work. meh.

What way are things supposed to work ?:mob:

El Sitherino
03-13-2003, 07:23 PM
read the rules.

Breton
03-13-2003, 07:39 PM
*suggests we should all ignore Cosmos Jack's posts until he gets a grip on himself*

*goes to bed*

El Sitherino
03-13-2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
*suggests we should all ignore Cosmos Jack's posts until he gets a grip on himself*

*goes to bed* agreed.*hides plans to destroy jack inside JM's bed.* :D

munik
03-13-2003, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
Don't get me wrong I like countries like yours... Okinawa had that same idea back a few hundred years ago. Japan walked right in and said guess what your belong to us now lol I liked his posts. Anyhow, as I don't have much knowledge of the Okinawans from hundreds of years ago, I do know that they were lacking in advancements compared to the rest of the world. So I doubt they could've stopped the Japanese anyhow. Hell, Okinawa wasn't even on maps untill after WWII. Now you should see what kind of place it has become. I guess it's similiar to the US accepting Hawaii into the union. If it wasn't us, it would've been someone else.

Cosmos Jack
03-13-2003, 08:53 PM
Okinawa was a rich country however they were pasivist and didn't beleave in a military. Japan at the time being closed off to trade and the Samuri war lords wanteing to get rich. Not being able to do that they not Japan invaded Okinawa for the most part so they could opin trade routs. I said it wrong I guess.

Okinawa didn't change hands again tell WW2 when the US invaded the island and was given back to Japan in the 70s. We built roads on the island and cities on the island even after we rolled of the Japanese just as we rebuilt helped rebuild Japan.... I have lived in Okinawa and spent some time in main land Japan they don't hate the US there and we droped 2 bombs on them funny how things work...........but I guess they were brain washed by teh US .........

If you people want to egnore me fine I don't really care...

you insult me I insult you, but for some odd resion I'm the one singled out.

ET Warrior
03-13-2003, 10:26 PM
If you support Bush, don't talk about others not having the balls. You know why Bush&US wants to attack Saddam? Because they're dead afraid of him. It takes real guts to not attack him.
If being brave requires leaving a tryrannical dictator in power where he can eventually get or perhaps already has access to WOMD's, then I hope the US is full of cowards.
Don't talk to me about propaganda. The country I live in has been neutral all the way until WW2
Ummm, you are from England right? If not, then I'll appologize in advance for my incorrect assumption. Now i'm not entirely certain what you mean by remaining neutral, because I can list at least 10 Wars that England was involved in before 1890.....probably more....so perhaps you could explain what you meant by neutral...

SkinWalker
03-13-2003, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
Well did you forget the Gulf War or were you alive at that time ?

I didn't forget. I'll give you a hint: I took this photo (http://images.deviantart.com/large/photography/photomilitary/MLRS_in_Kuwait.jpg)

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
He invaded Kuwait for there oil supply he had a long drawn out war with Iran so after a stale mate there he invaded Kuwait to build back his losses,

But one cannot ignore the fact that he was able to do all of this because the we (the United States) supplied him with weapons systems and billions of dollars. He was our monster.

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
Hussain is not like Hitler here ither killing his own people. Hitler just killed Jews in his own country that's ok right. Hussain killed the families of the people against him. He has used gas on his own people.

Before pointing the finger at the genocides of others, it is helpful to be familiar with the genocides our own country has commited. Our government killed a significantly higher number of ethnics than Saddam and Hitler put together. Not that this excuses either of their actions.

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
Hussain even cam to power in a vary similar way to Hitler

As did most of the world's leaders throughout history.

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
The truth about Hitler is ... he was the most productive leader Germany had had for a long time and he really got the economy moving. Hell you can't even say that for Hussany

Interesting statement. The interesting thing about Saddam's governmental style is that it is, ironically, one of the only secular governments in the Middle East. His tyranny is, unfortunately, successful. This will bear out as true as we attempt to rebuild a democratic government amidst the ruin, chaos and anarchy that will follow in the wake of his destruction. Getting the Kurds, Shiites, etc. to agree will be interesting if not impossible.



Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
The UN doesn't have the balls to make the hard choices and never has.

I won't disagree with you there. There are plenty of indiscretions that have occurred and are still occurring the world over that make Hussein's reign look petty. The Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, the Tutsi genocide of Uganda, East Timor, and Chechnya for example. India and Pakistan absolutely hate each other and both are nuclear powers.... nothing being done there. It's time to continue to let the Arabs deal with the Infidel Hussein and focus on the real threats of the world.

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
One more thing there was jets before 1940. Germany had developed them.

Yes... but not in military use. Or any other use... so as I said... no jets before '40.

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
Iraq has seperation of church and state lol. So your saying killing your own people is ok as long as you have seperation of church and state. lol

Good point. Church / state is irrelevant. Genocide is bad regardless. The U.S. was considered to have a separation of church and state when it commited it's genocides.

Cheers

El Sitherino
03-13-2003, 11:19 PM
oh remember the fact that hitler himself was homosexual and a jew. sorry just thought id make sure people remembered that little fact.
also hitler didnt only kill jews but blacks, homosexuals, and handicapped(mentally and physically)

SkinWalker
03-13-2003, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
Hussain wants to be like Hitler.

How do you know? Perhaps he wants to be like Gengis Khan or Andrew Jackson.


Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
For the most part I see a lot of US bashing from people in other countries on here and when it all adds up you don't like the US because of your own countries "propaganda".

Man, I'm with ya bubba! I'm glad we don't have that propaganda problem here in the USA! To all you foreigners: Nyaaa! Put that in your pipe and smoke it! [/facetious mode]

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
Lets a terrorist fly a plain into one your large buildings and see how your countries react... Assuming you are in counties that can build large buildings that is.

Kind of an ethnocentric remark, eh? I could say that with your spelling, it's a wonder ours is a country that can manage to build tall buildings. Perhaps we contract that engineering stuff out to smart Indian dudes. But I won't say all of that.

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
As for the people here who are against the US Hope you don't live next to any large sky scrapers because the terrorist don't care if your for or against your country they just want to kill you because your an American, because of the "propaganda" they are led to beleave.

The amazing thing is, that you really aren't far off in the sentiment in your last sentance. What we have to understand is that the "propaganda" has it's source in the ethnocentric attitudes that we Americans tend to have. We tend to impose our way of living and our beliefs upon the rest of the world, or we assume that the rest of the world is wrong for believing differently. Of course people hate us.

El Sitherino
03-13-2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by SkinWalker
What we have to understand is that the "propaganda" has it's source in the ethnocentric attitudes that we Americans tend to have. We tend to impose our way of living and our beliefs upon the rest of the world, or we assume that the rest of the world is wrong for believing differently. Of course people hate us. yup. i for one dont get why people (american people) say that other countries hate us becuase of our freedom... actually i think that they hate us because we push our living style down their throat and if they rebel then we declare war on them saying they are terrorists. ****in pigs run our (U.S) government.

El Sitherino
03-13-2003, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
If being brave requires leaving a tryrannical dictator in power where he can eventually get or perhaps already has access to WOMD's, then I hope the US is full of cowards.

i dont get it. you cant fight back against a guy at school who hits you, because it takes a braver man to not fight back(thats what parents say) yet when something happens to the countries "integrity" we have to declare war on all who'm we hate and can easily prey on. its the bully system we get picked on by someone we cant attack we find the next best thing, a smaller, weaker yet similar person (in this case Iraq)

ET Warrior
03-14-2003, 12:05 AM
An interesting and valid point...yet i dont see it's significance related to my post.....I'm not talking about Saddam Hussein attacking us, or anyone attacking us... I'm talking about removing him to prevent the slaughter of innocents by his hands. Everyone will say it takes the bigger man to step in and stop the bully who is beating up the defenseless little guy..........

And yes, i agree that the United States is also a pretty big bully. We've made mistakes. So has everyone, let it go.

Cosmos Jack
03-14-2003, 01:35 AM
Hmmm "SkinWalker" if you want to start talking about how the US has treated Native Americans. You're barking up the wrong tree. My mother was Cherokee. For a long time growing up I was disgruntle towards America for the past, but I grew up ;)

I recognize the past is the past not the present. Things have changed. When my mother went to school she was teased. When I went to school it was cool to say you were native American in some way or another lol I don't know about you however.....

If by the picture your are implying you were in he military. Hmm so you are a hypocrite. Why serve a country you hate ?

I have been in the military as well. In fact if America goes to war I most likely will get recalled back into service. I did a recall in Jan. were they told me to watch for the orders just incase. So if anything I stand to be effected most by a war in Iraq. I like where I am and my life at the moment.

If it needs doing and I'm needed to help do it. It will be done.
SIMPER FI :D

Originally posted by SkinWalker
Kind of an ethnocentric remark, eh? I could say that with your spelling,

As for the cheep shot on my spelling that is kinda silly. I'm not willing to invest more time in this debate trying to fined your typos or the grammar errors of others. I would be here for the next few years. That's just silly. My former College English Professor has a PhD in English Lit. She was also born a raised in England and she still made mistakes "so I can too". Seem you have a lot of time on your hands to make such a fuss on my posts. I must have made a mark.......

Were you in the army? Now that I think about your posts read like a army guy's writing.

Cosmos Jack
03-14-2003, 01:41 AM
Anyway "ET Warrior" how are the Avalanche doing :D

SkinWalker
03-14-2003, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
I'm talking about removing him to prevent the slaughter of innocents by his hands.

Then where will it end? There are many nations in the world with tyrants and dictators. There are many so-called democratic nations that violate human rights and murder their own people. Where does the U.S. government draw the line? Why does one group of people deserve salvation yet others do not? Why did we not "finish the job" with Somalia instead of pulling out with our collective tails between our legs?

The point of this thread is that it isn't he human suffering in Iraq that is motivating the invasion of a nation. It isn't the threat (real or imagined) that Iraq poses against the U.S. There is NO threat. I challenge anyone to offer any verifiable threat to United States soil by Iraq.

The real reason for invading Iraq is to secure their oil production and prevent OPEC from fully backing the oil market with the Euro instead of the dollar. The plans are already laid in to rebuild an oil industry (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2003/b03132003_bt116-03.html) that has yet to be destroyed.

I don't mind squashing an idiot like Saddam... we should've done it in '91, but again... the stability of the oil industry was at stake. At that time, the Euro was barely a concept. A chaotic Iraq (Kurds, Shiites, et al) would have had lasting effects on one of the world's largest oil fields.

I do mind trampling the reputation of my country. That's what the Bush administration is doing. The majority of the world is against us. The good will directed toward us from 9/11 is squandered and Bush has the audacity to bring up that date in his quest for power and glory, trampling the honor of those lost there.

SkinWalker
03-14-2003, 02:10 AM
Let me be clear. I do not support a war directed toward Iraq based on the reasons given. I was in the first Gulf War. I served proudly in the 2nd Armored Div (Patton's Division) and supported the 2nd Marine Division with counter battery artillery.

I do, however, offer my FULL support of the troops involved in the current invasion, regardless of their nationality or their branch of service. Semper Fi, Hell on Wheels.

-Jack, you aren't qualified to rate my sentiment toward our country. You don't know me... I don't know you. I would not presume whether you hate or love.... just so you know, "hate" is not a word that enters my vocabulary very often. As I'm sure you were probably 12 or 13 during the first Gulf War, I can safely assume that you went into the Marines for a brief stint. I retired from the US Army and spent nearly two decades serving my country with duty, honor and loyalty.

It is my loyalty to my country that makes me speak out against what I see as wrong. Not hatred. It is my love for my flag that wishes to see it's reputation preserved. Not my hatred. It is the honor I owe the men I served with and the warriors I killed in battle that makes me want peace in lieu of war becuase it is realistic.

When you step into this thread and speak harshly to my friends, most of whom are not of our country, then I find it dishonorable. I do not think it is fair that they see only the loud, ignorant, and closed-minded representatives (not that you are any or all of these) of my country without my chiming in and demonstrating that some of us actually see through the media propaganda within our borders. Some of us actually see past the hard-line republican retoric.

Make no mistake: I am a warrior first. If they were to begin calling up retirees, I would be the first in line to go serve my country. Regardless of my sentiment to why I was there. That, son, is what loyalty is about. That is what America is about. Speaking our mind, but doing our duty.

Semper Fi and good luck to you if you're called up.

BigTeddyPaul
03-14-2003, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Hitler's middle name is Habib just like Saddam's!!
They both prefer wearing boxers!?!
Hitler was born on the 4th of January whereas Saddam was born on the 1st of April! 1 and 4, 4 and 1 - coincidence??? I DON'T THINK SO! :rolleyes:
And if you add the last two digits of Saddam's year of birth to the number of days Hitler was waging war you get a total of 666!

And they both drink their coffee black!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

OMG-OMG HOW 'BOUT THAT! Now me surely must kill all Iraqi people! Let'z go! Who's with me??

Smart ass. I love that about you.

I only read the first page and looked at the second and I am going to assume I read it. We are going to war. Bush has planned this since day 1. He is trying to get as much support as possible but isn't getting it. American journalism sucks the big one. What will happen? I don't know but I am pretty sure this time Saddam will not stay in power if we do go to war. If he does then the next "Bush" will just see it his duty to take out Hussein or his line. I am tired. It is 3:30 AM. Night all.

BigTeddyPaul

BigTeddyPaul
03-14-2003, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by SkinWalker
Semper Fi and good luck to you if you're called up.

This has nothing to do with the thread and more to do with that quote. I remember 9/11 as much as every other American did. I woke up at 6 AM because I was going with my mother to her work (7th grade home economics teacher) to use her internet because we did not have it at our house yet. I turned on my TV and saw on all the channels what had happened and was shocked. When we reached her school at 10:00 AM (2nd period) there was a TV showing the people jumping and the buildings collapsing. All the kids in the class were whooping and hollering and laughing and all I could think about was how much of a disgrace it would be if I was recruited and died for them because they think it was a joke. I honestly almost felt like crying because of the lack of respect they showed at the people's lives who were being affected. What was worse was that I had just turned 18 two weeks before this event and was already in college so I knew if this thing turned ugly there was always a chance things could happen.

Just my little story of one of the reasons I decided not to join the Air Force.

Braveheart: I ain't dying for these bastards.

BigTeddyPaul

Cosmos Jack
03-14-2003, 01:16 PM
Well I'm going to give up on trying to convince all of you Hussein is a bad guy. It seems you all have a fern knowledge that he is lol.....For what ever reasons are for a war with Iraq oil, revenge, or human suffering. It is really irrelevant.

The guy needs to be taken out of power. I already know that the US made the man in the beginning. I already know about the Iran Contra Affair. So for the most you can sa yeah he is a our "Monster". So for that much he is our "Problem" we made him we need to fix him. If the terrorist and Iraq hate each other why would they attack us if we attack Iraq.

I know that a lot of negative sentiment in the middle east comes from the fact we don't do anything. We just buy Oil and defend Israel. We make all the countries dictators richer while they make there people poorer.

We should go dictator hopping go around the world and take these bastards out, but most of them already have nukes or have armies twice the size of ours. Not to mention the support of more powerful countries. :lurkblast

They see the US as the cause of there problems even though we don't interfere as much as people think. They see it as that. So as for Iraq they don't care if he is bad or good they just look at the US as BULLY. I did watch CNN; however, and they showed where at a Middle East Conference the Prime minister of Kuwait asked Hussein to step down. So we do have support if only from the country we rescued.

For the most part my final argument is this. Before I go to work.
Hussein is a bad guy lol He needs to be removed. If I was living in a country with a dictator like him, and I knew it was going to be invaded to take him out. I don't care why. Offcouse they don't know that. Hussein has them thinking were coming there to wip them all out. If anyone on here beleaves that your just STUPID.

Breton
03-14-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
If the terrorist and Iraq hate each other why would they attack us if we attack Iraq.



Because they hate you anyway. And I do belive that the terrorists are wanting you to attack an arabic country, it will make you look terrible, and there will be more terrorists.

We should go dictator hopping go around the world and take these bastards out, but most of them already have nukes or have armies twice the size of ours. Not to mention the support of more powerful countries

Perhaps you would be so kind to mention any of these dictatorships with nukes and huge armies.

Hussein has them thinking were coming there to wip them all out. If anyone on here beleaves that your just STUPID.

I don't belive anyone here thinks you are going in there to wipe them all out. But I guess a lot of Iraqians do. That does not make you stupid. There is no way to not be affected by propaganda.

CagedCrado
03-14-2003, 07:48 PM
Venezuela has the biggest oil reserve in the world. If we wanted oil wed invade them. They are in a rebellion so wed be in and out in one day for a tenth of the money and end drugs. If you think its for oil you are as bright as people in france. DOWN WITH FRANCE AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM. Im going to eat my very american freedom fries and go burn a french flag. :usa: Die france. You trashy drunks who wont even defend yourselves from germany TWICE.

El Sitherino
03-14-2003, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by CagedCrado
Venezuela has the biggest oil reserve in the world. If we wanted oil wed invade them. They are in a rebellion so wed be in and out in one day for a tenth of the money and end drugs. If you think its for oil you are as bright as people in france. DOWN WITH FRANCE AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM. Im going to eat my very american freedom fries and go burn a french flag. :usa: Die france. You trashy drunks who wont even defend yourselves from germany TWICE. you sir prove yourself to be an ass more and more with every post

Breton
03-14-2003, 08:16 PM
CagedCrado, I will not say more than that you are a terrifying example on what ignorance can do to people's heads.

CagedCrado
03-14-2003, 08:22 PM
You think that saddam massacering kurds while we sit around wondering whether or not we go to war is stupid? Why cant you people in europe just go along with a war against somebody we should have taken out before, he does lots of illegal things all the time. They are moral things, like the pot smoking freedom bs that all of you want. Im not blind. I am not ignorant. I see more of the truth than you do. I see how all of the europeans are just backing off because they did illegal things. Atleast we have the balls to say we did.

El Sitherino
03-14-2003, 08:26 PM
you're full of so much ****. sorry for the language but hes got so much crap coming out of his mouth.

CagedCrado
03-14-2003, 08:34 PM
How come all the people who see this site say the exact opposite of you? You are all partly right, i admit bush has done a poor job in not just going and kicking iraqs ass and leaving since afterwards everybody will praise us... but whether or not the war is right or wrong is not the question, its whether you will support not exposing illegal activities. If you notice, the only countries opposing the war are countries who have done illegal things in iraq. (france, russia, china, and germany [germany is questionable])

I do not just blindly follow the president just because hes the president. If you actaully looked into it youd see that many republican and democrats are pro war.

El Sitherino
03-14-2003, 08:37 PM
uhm yeah america has done so much more things than any of those countries but of course the american educational system wont teach you that. one more time i will give this speech
the US government has done many horrible things. my grandfather was ordered to fire upon his own troops. by the president. in the gulf war my uncle recieved the same order. they both disobeyed the order and were sent to trial after the trial was dismissed they were sworn to secrecy but of course with this big of info who would be silent my uncle was also ordered to fire mortars into civilian inhabited areas. i saw videos his friend took while the war was going on so i know what war looks like. the civilian kills totally outweighed the military kills. many of the civilians killed (by american troops) were women and children. not to mention women were raped and beaten by many military troops and members these troops werent even sent to a trial. and you say that america is good and just. you sir are the ****ing idiot. you are ignorant you are a blubbering oaf who doesnt even deserve the right to free speech its people like you that make this world hell.

i would give you every single detestable thing but that would take 3 days. to give you the entire story and the facts to prove it. but my suggestion is to go to a university and take a reliable US history class but i doubt you'll find one.

oh by the way im an american and i wish you a horrible death thank you that is all

CagedCrado
03-14-2003, 08:45 PM
No ****, i said the US did bad things. We never did the things that iraq has. Every country does bad things, but the united states is way up there for doing good things. We give more aid than all other countries in the world combined. We never take and colonize countries. oh ya and ill say it again

WAR IS BAD. PEOPLE DIE. THE OUTCOME OF WAR IS GOOD. 90% OF THE TIME. IF IT WASNT FOR WAR WED BE RULED BY GERMANS. I DONT LIKE WAR BUT MANY TIMES IT IS NECESARY AND IN THIS CASE THERE IS NO DEBATE WITH SUBSTANCE AGAINST WAR.

El Sitherino
03-14-2003, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by CagedCrado
No ****, i said the US did bad things. We never did the things that iraq has. Every country does bad things, but the united states is way up there for doing good things. We give more aid than all other countries in the world combined. We never take and colonize countries. oh ya and ill say it again

WAR IS BAD. PEOPLE DIE. THE OUTCOME OF WAR IS GOOD. 90% OF THE TIME. IF IT WASNT FOR WAR WED BE RULED BY GERMANS. I DONT LIKE WAR BUT MANY TIMES IT IS NECESARY AND IN THIS CASE THERE IS NO DEBATE WITH SUBSTANCE AGAINST WAR. oh yeah... then what was it that we did to the rightful owners of this continent(the native americans)

CagedCrado
03-14-2003, 09:02 PM
What is it the british did to people in south africa? the belgish did to people in central africa? Australia? China? We were just doing our business, and we tried to live in peace. We are also the only country who gives minorities that we supress MONEY AID RIGHTS and JOBS. We give them so much its not even funny. We are extremely generous.

Many times more rights than we give ourselves, and americans were in movements such as abolishon and womens rights, we were one of the first countries to give women rights, and the only reason slavery wasnt common in other countries is because their economies were different. Not to mention how france england and prussia supported the south in the civil war.

Breton
03-14-2003, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by CagedCrado
We give more aid than all other countries in the world combined.

That's a lie. Completely a lie. 16% comes from USA, wich is only 1% of their national budget. Get some facts next time you make a statement, k?

We never take and colonize countries. oh ya and ill say it again

That's because you're so young and all the land was already taken.

THE OUTCOME OF WAR IS GOOD. 90% OF THE TIME.

It's pretty much the opposite: The outcome of war is bad 90% of the time.

IF IT WASNT FOR WAR WED BE RULED BY GERMANS.

Bull.

1. If it wasn't for war, Germany wouldn't attack you in the first place.
2. They would never manage to hold all their land for more than a few years.

El Sitherino
03-14-2003, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by CagedCrado
What is it the british did to people in south africa? the belgish did to people in central africa? Australia? China? We were just doing our business, and we tried to live in peace. We are also the only country who gives minorities that we supress MONEY AID RIGHTS and JOBS. We give them so much its not even funny. We are extremely generous.

Many times more rights than we give ourselves, and americans were in movements such as abolishon and womens rights, we were one of the first countries to give women rights, and the only reason slavery wasnt common in other countries is because their economies were different. Not to mention how france england and prussia supported the south in the civil war. GENEROUS! GENEROUS! you call the rape, massacre, and cattling of innocent people who were here first living in peace and generous!?!?! do you realise how big of a crock of crap that is not to mention ignorant. as a proud cherokee and commanche decendant I wish the spirits destroy each and every bit of you. you ****in make me sick im sorry that i have to say that but what the white man did to my ancestors is far worse than what hitler did to the jews and far worse than what saddam is doing to his people. do you realise that the white man put my people into fires while tied up to poles. they raped the women then ripped out their uterus', they murdered tribesmen, they left children dying out in the sun. they threw babies into the air and shot them for target practice, they would burn the sacred lands of my ancestors and then desicrate on the ashes, they would then throw my people into a section of their(my peoples) land and say they are being generous!(they did this for hundreds of years) if i wasnt a good person i would hunt you down and butcher you! but i won't because i do not wish to free fall to your level.

El Sitherino
03-14-2003, 09:48 PM
america was not the first to give women rights. first it was europe,then japan, then finally america 30 years after japans 80th anniversary of giving women rights. of course europe cut the rights but then reastablished them before america.

Father Torque
03-14-2003, 10:00 PM
I agree with Crado extremely well. Qui Gon you must getYOUR facts from ZoogDisney.com. Bill Gates the richest man in the world is gonna donate 95% of his profit to poor kids in Africa. 95% of his profit is over 60 billion dollars. Name country(s) that can match that standard. Plus all the other foundations in America 1% of our budget. Hmmmmmm. Right are you telling me that our budget is 64,000,000,000,000,000,000 dollars according to your 1% theory. Yah the US pumps out about 80 billion dollars in funding(including Bill Gates donation.) lets see 80,000,000,000 x 100%. Nice theory Qui Gon. And all this Native American stuff, yes it was there land, this happened what 500 years ago, people weent civilized back then. There is no need to go into the past, because nothings gonna change, i dont use the past to prove my points i use it to learn from. And you should to.

-Father Torque

Insane the Muslims treated the women well first not the europeans. The europeans learned the way to treta women through the European crusades.:p

Breton
03-14-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Father Torque
Qui Gon you must getYOUR facts from ZoogDisney.com.

Funny.

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Luxembourg and Sweden are the only ones that go above UN's target of 0,7%, while US rank lowest of all the industrialized countries at 0,11%.

Cosmos Jack
03-15-2003, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Perhaps you would be so kind to mention any of these dictatorships with nukes and huge armies.


...............KOREA................ Like around a million waiting on the boarder and not to mention the million man standing army of China who knows how many in reserve like status. <---FACT YOU MISSED ! ! ! ! yeah funny.........

China is the reason the Korean War is in a sees fire for the past 40 some odd years. China is Koreas biggest Supporter. Not to OOOOO Korea has already stated the have nukes and will use them.

Is that good enough for you there guy, or do I need to go look up all the smaller ones with smaller armies ? Believe it or not at the Gulf War Iraq had one of the largest armies in the world lol, but they didn't want to fight for him lol

"Besides I thought you two were going to ignore me.... "

All I see in these posts is blind USA bashing from people who have done nothing for the world and most likely never will.
The people here are just against war no matter if for a good or a bad reason. Just against war. It really doesn't matter if Saddam is a bad guy or a good guy to you people. You're just against war. Let the bad guys do what they want to whoever. As long as its not me in my country......

That's just sad. What is also sad is the US and UK end up taking it on themselves to get reed of governments like this while the rest of the world says "as long as it's not me in my country why should I care". Well you should care about them because it could just as easily be your country someday under a dictator or mine for that matter.

Donald Rumsfeld our Secretary of Defense said this best. That when looking at Korea from orbit the north is dark and without light and the south is bright and full of light. Not a exact quote, but you get the idea. That is the difference between the American way and the other way. N. Korea is poor not because of USA because of there leadership. If not for the US going into the Korean War the hole of Korea would be that way. So there is some good we did by ourselves without the support of the rest of the world...... They didn't have oil nether did Vietnam. We didn't get rich off any of that we got poorer. How many people from your countries died to try to keep another country free.

Iraq we can be to blame for some of it, but when we send millions of bags of food and they give it to the military instead of the people that's their fault. 1 reason why we must fix that so all the people get food and its not cut off before it gets to them... IRAQ gives oil for food they aren't getting much money...

Are you all afraid that there might be a bigger war. Something the hole world gets drug into. Something you might get called up to defend. Are you scared to fight and die for something bigger than yourselves.... I guess you just want to live out your life and die sh@tting on your self in a dipper at 80 never doing anything for the world you live in, but setting back in a chair at home gripping about the politics of a country thousands of miles away.

If you don't want to go to war. Fine you're not we are its our fight with our consequences. Your opinions don't amount to a heap of Sh@t. It's going to cost Billions to go to war with Iraq and stay there to rebuild it. Most likely the Oil fields will be set on fire at the beginning to keep us from getting them like they did in Kuwait. Again we aren't getting rich we are getting poorer and if you think we are "you are just sad", because I just so happen to pay my taxes here. I'm not getting rich. If you think a US Pres. can't get rich off invading Iraq our last Pres. couldn't get a "blow job" without it being on the evening news.

I live here. I have served my country and most likely will again. Iraq should have been fixed 11 years ago, but the rest of the world said "NO" Just like when anything needs doing. Its the US that has to do it. Nobody else wants to get there hands dirty.

There will never be a world free of war, violence, and hunger as long as men are free to do wrong. Saddam has been free for to long..

If you want to stop human suffering and want the world to be peaceful. Go get a uniform and put it on. If you don't need to fight for your rights. Fight for someone else. Stand up for doing something rather than standing up for doing nothing.

I'm not closed mineded and I'm not stupid or brain washed by propaganda. There is so much freedom of the press here there is everything from your point of view to mine and everything behined and infront. This is just that facts if you don't like it you can suck an egg. I'm tired of debating with truly closed minded people that are all to safe in there cozy little beds sucking there thumbs while other people in the world are suffering and dyeing.

So much of your time is spent blaming my country. Why don't you blame yours what are they doing. With all the money the US gives to other countries in the world for aid. Everyone in America could go to college for free and have free health care. We have people in our own country starving in the streets, but we send aid to Russia or Iraq or some 3rd world f@cked up country. That the rest of the world dosn't know exists or care.

I wont be posting here anymore its pointless... For your sake I hope we don't live in a world someday where all the governments are like Iraq and there is constant drawn out wars. Given by your opposition to this war. I doubt you would lift a finger to change it.

Like i said in the middle I will say again...There will never be a world free of war, violence, and hunger as long as men are free to do wrong. Saddam has been free for to long..

Like I said in the middle I will say again...There will never be a world free of war, violence, and hunger as long as men are free to do wrong. Saddam has been free for to long..

If you don't like it you can "SUCK A EGG"

Cosmos Jack
03-15-2003, 01:44 AM
Dam I had a typo.....

BigTeddyPaul
03-15-2003, 01:47 AM
Million man army of China. Good one. Did you know that if we gave 10 bullets to every person in every form of service in the States and made the Chinese ARMY (just the army) stand 1 in front of the other we would not kill them all. From Generals to secretaries, to pilots 10 bullets 1 in front of the other just the army 1 million! Where do you get your facts from?

BigTeddyPaul

SkinWalker
03-15-2003, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by Father Torque
95% of his profit is over 60 billion dollars.

Heh.... I'm sure that wouldn't be his gross profit, but rather a net profit from maybe one capital venture. Still, I'd like to see the source for that.

Plus all the other foundations in America 1% of our budget. Hmmmmmm. Right are you telling me that our budget is 64,000,000,000,000,000,000 dollars according to your 1% theory.

It's not actually a theory... I'm too tired to do the math, but look at this table (http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy1999/guide/tbl2_2.gif). I'd be surprised if the percentage for Outlays-->Discretionary-->International (foreign aid) came to more than 2%.

All the foundations and charities in the U.S. couldn't hope to come close to our GDP (formerly known as the GNP prior to 1991), or Gross Domestic Product. Our annual budget was nearly 2 Trillion dollars for 2003.

Cheers.

SkinWalker
03-15-2003, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
I wont be posting here anymore its pointless...

It's probably just as well.. You only offer mindless rhetoric and ethnocentric viewpoints rather than intellectual debate with sourced data.

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
If you don't like it you can "SUCK A EGG"

Sure.

El Sitherino
03-15-2003, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Father Torque

Insane the Muslims treated the women well first not the europeans. The europeans learned the way to treta women through the European crusades.:p i said first to GIVE. muslims always held women equal to men.