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Solo4114
03-03-2003, 08:27 PM
I used to be an avid JK2 player and poster on these forums. On a whim, I decided to come back here to take a look at the forums and it seems like much of the same old stuff, albeit I've noticed people posting that they're leaving the game (folks who apparently got pretty involved with the community) and a few posts saying that the game is dying. For me, the game died a while ago, but I suspect that the game is dying for other people for a number of reasons. But, this got me thinking: what happened here? Why did a game that had such fantastic licenses (Q3 engine, SW source materials) end up losing steam when it should still be going strong? Incidentally, these are not in rank order as to what I believed killed the game. They're just whatever popped in my head.

1.) The Patch Fiascos

Let this game be a lesson to developers everywhere. GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME. From 1.02 to 1.03 to 1.04, too much changed. Granted, I happened to enjoy 1.04, but I agree with a lot of the criticism that it slowed the game down. This game had some serious design/balance flaws to it from the get-go. Originally, the dark side powers seemed to dominate, especially given that the blue glow of "absorb" was always on. Plus, there was the whole DFA thing that was a problem. So, then came 1.03. Well, this fixed a great deal of stuff, but it also broke a whole lot more. Anyone need to be reminded of the ass-fighters? With 1.04, all moves seemed equally weak, and they all took forever to kill a person, especially due to the blocking. ArtifeX's ProMod helped to fix a lot of this, by essentially making the lightsabers always lethal and at the same time making the real question be based on the ability to get inside an opponent's defenses (which is as it should be with sword fighting). The mod also fixed a lot of stuff with gunners and mixed force users being WAY overpowered in relation to pure force users. Regardless, though, that mod alone was too late to save an already divided community. Many people left the game with each patch iteration, as each patch continued to isolate people from their particular playing style. Whether I agreed with these playing styles or not, the simple fact of the matter is that many people were driven away by fundamental gameplay changes. If the game had shipped using ArtifeX's mod as the core for sabre fighting, I imagine the community would've lasted MUCH longer. And I say this after having publicly lambasted ArtifeX (at least I think I did) when he left the first time, due to boredom with the game (during the Ass Wars). Playing the mod really pointed out to me the fundamental flaws in the sabre system with "vanilla" JK2 in ALL of its forms. For my money, the lightsabre should be lethal for any clean hit, regardless of how you execute it. If memory serves, this was the case with ArtifeX's mod. However, this brings us to a certain undeniable fact, which even ArtifeX's mods couldn't save.

2.) The gameplay modes were BORING.

Ok, I admit it. I'm a Star Wars junkie. I love most things Star Wars, and the idea of being able to play a first person shooter against otehr people in a starwars environment REALLY appeals to me, even after JK1 and JK2 left me rather disappointed. I also loved the models and maps that came out (well, most of them), and loved how the game looked. But in the end, the gameplay itself that lay beneath the flashy graphics left me rather bored. Fundamentally, it came down to deathmatch. Either individual deathmatch (IE: duel), team deathmatch, or free-for-all deathmatch. It's all just the same thing, over and over again, though. Grab a gun or lightsabre, find a guy, kill him, rinse, repeat. You can add all sorts of intricacies into HOW you go about doing that, but in the end, all you're doing is fragging opponents. Plain and simple. Throw in force powers, different moves, fancy looking models with cool sounds, nifty looking sabres, etc., it's still just running around mindlessly killing enemies. For me, the game lacked any sense of greater purpose or cohesiveness. Return to Castle Wolfenstein and Battlefield 1942 provided me with a much better sense of purpose in the game. Why? Because there were objectives to playing. You weren't just killing people for the sake of killing people. Star Wars has a rich background in that it takes place in the midst of a Galactic civil war. People fight in the star wars universe for a reason. It's not just running around fragging things. Ultimately, I find deathmatch to be intensely boring. It just feels like the same old thing over and over again, and to no real interesting end. Seeing who is the '1337est of the 1337' doesn't matter to me. I'd much rather work as part of a team in achieving a goal of some sort. Even the CTF mode in this game always felt weak to me. Maybe it's because it lacked any kind of class structure (IE: medics, soldiers, engineers, jedi, bounty hunters, smugglers, whatever), or maybe it's because there were never all that many CTF maps made and the ones the game shipped with were dull (it always felt like half of them revolved around throwing people off of balconies, rather than capping flags), or maybe it was because of balance issues with gunners vs. jedi. In the end, I always felt like CTF was sort of lost in the shuffle in this game, and the only modes that were played were the DM variants. In the end, I think we can't help but get bored with this style of play. I mean, how many times can you kill "H3114 1337 d00d" and really enjoy it? Even if you do it in a new location with a nifty-keen player model, or a cool lightsabre (or two, if you're playing one of the mods), it's still just the same thing over and over and over. And ultimately, that's just plain boring.

So, here's a lesson for the devs in the future:

1.) Make your gameplay balanced from the start. NOTHING is more important than balanced gameplay. It's because of the flaws in balance that this game had its community drastically cut each time a new patch came out.

2.) Make your game modes more interesting. BF1942 has been one of the highest selling games for some time now. Take a tip from this. Deathmatch is passe. We need soemthing more to sink our teeth into.

3.) Support your game to the bitter end. After 1.04, I got the notion that Raven's basic attitude was "hands off" for this product. Which is a shame, considering their patches had screwed with stuff to the point where we really could've used another one. Then again, each time the agme was "fixed," something else broke. As I said, I liked the ability to block in 1.03 and 1.04, and I liked the fact taht ass-fighting was gone, but there were still many many things that needed fixing/balancing.

So, if you want to know why the game died, that's my own view. It just got boring.

JonJonPoPong
03-03-2003, 08:36 PM
I agree with the idea that yea patches are asstastic.
However the whole point of jedi knight games has and will allwys be to frag. There shouldent be classes or anything like that, since if you want that, theres allways SWG the massive multi player thats currently in Beta.
One of the reasons I stoped playing was that I became 1st in the world and only had played to become the best, so I quit, plus my fave server ACGA which was one of the most popular servers for the game for several months went poof.

NerfYoda
03-04-2003, 01:29 AM
I'm not sure this game is dying. I still get at least 10 or 15 applications to the Academy a day.

RpTheHotrod
03-04-2003, 01:59 AM
It's dying.

A lot less servers...and most of them are empty.

Why did it die? Two reasons...


Lucas Arts patches. According to them, they "thought" that most players did duel maps only, because they were getting complaints about duels ending to quickly. To "fix" this, they set sabers so minimal damage so saber duels would last longer. They however, forgot...that most servers are actually FFA or CTF...and weapons kill one shot.

Second, all these dumb mods/models/files admins put into their servers, then not allow people to download them. Common sense "I'm gonna make some crappy mod to evryone else, but I think it just r0x0rs..then make it where no one can join my server due to auto-download being off! Hey! Why is my server always empty!?"

plus...admins that use jedi knight difficulty, and admins that fill their servers full of bots.

There are a TON of mods out there...and only ONE of them was worth downloading. Promod.

Simplex
03-04-2003, 02:52 AM
I havent posted in MONTHS, and I probably wont even check back to this, however:

I AGREE. Gameplay got repeditive, big time. Deathmatch, and Duel...........yay.

I had ALL the models and ALL of this sweet ****, but no servers ran with models it seemed. When they did, it was 3 guys in a DM. Wo, hoo......

Gameplay was boring, for me, because of the guns. Every gun stunk like awful boring clone crap to me. Unreal anyone? Same guns......

Ugh.........I dunno, single player was good, NOWHERE near great. Guns uselsss again, turrets, etc.......

AKPiggott
03-04-2003, 09:01 AM
You know.. I've never played JO online, not even once. I've played some bot matches but that's it. JO's juicy core is the Single Player element of it, if SP editing takes off, the community will flourish once more.

So the moral of the story is: Go out and make some bloody SP levels!

Solo4114
03-04-2003, 11:04 AM
Agreed, if single player editing ever took off (which it won't -- people are too concerned with MP), the game could survive in a limited fashion, but the online JO experience is dying and has been dying a slow death for some time now.

What I'd have liked to see is an RTCW style of gameplay, classes and all. That's what I happen to like, and based on what games are selling well these days, that seems to be what a lot of other people like. In terms of the game always being about fragging, so's Q3, and I never played that. DM is boring. It's the same thing over and over again. Look at the self-proclaimed best player in the world in this thread (I have no way to verify if you were the best player in the world or not, hence the "self-proclaimed" bit). This guy claims to have played until he felt he was at his best, then quit. Why do you think that is? Because dueling with other people gets boring after a while. Even if you're the best. I imagine if you'd played as a part of a team, and towards a particular goal on various maps, then the game would've had more longevity. As for playing classes and comparing that to SWG, that's not what I'm advocating for (though I do enjoy RPGing). I'm talking about games like Team Fortress, RTCW, BF1942, etc.

I think that ultimately, when you rely on DM to carry your game, it's gonna die eventually. The only reason why the various quake games have survived as long as they have is their modability. If it wasn't that modable, and if it relied on DM solely, I doubt they'd be the blockbuster games that they are.

Something else to consider about why MP never quite made it for some of us (myself included): it never felt like it was a real Star Wars experience. Honestly, the game felt like just another quake mod which, while cool to look at, was ultimately fairly boring in terms of gameplay mechanics. You lost the Star Wars feel of the game because it was just DM. Like I've said, I love Star Wars, but I don't love it to the point where you can just slap Star Wars graphics on a game and have it automatically be fun for me.

THE fundamental thing that killed this game for me at least was it's eventual lack of immersiveness in the universe in which I wanted to play. Whether it was because the sabre fighting was more like jousting (1.02), because a single move could be spammed over and over to ensure victory (1.03), or because DM finally just got really really old for me (1.04), it all boils down to the same thing: that Star Wars feel to the game just wasn't there.

Now, that said, in terms of Single Player, this game was definitely one of the best Star Wars games put out in the past 6 years. However, I've yet to see a REALLY kick-ass SW MP game. Maybe Galaxies will do it for me, but I still don't like the idea of paying $10 a month to play a game. Maybe Knights of the Old Republic will do it, but in terms of MP FPS action, I doubt we're going to see anything to revive this game, and I wonder about the future of SW MP games.

RpTheHotrod
03-04-2003, 11:28 AM
It isn't just graphics, but gameplay.

I think Team Fortress Classic has a lot more re-playability and fun than JK2. The graphics suck vs JK2:O, but...it's a team game with classes...and it's been around for...what... 5...6 years?

JK2:O turned into another Deathmatch quake game. They also pratically removed saber usefulness. Boring.

txa1265
03-04-2003, 12:21 PM
So far as I can tell, JKII has been dying since ~March 29th of last year.

I don't play much at all online, SP is my thing. However, I agree that the patch issues really hurt the community. Looking back, they should have tried a 'MP Test' like RtCW to see how the gameplay balanced out. Maybe they'll try that next time.

When I've been looking around, it seems just about everything but Counter-Strike is dead. The 'war' games are clearly most popular - CS, MoHAA, BF1942 consume >90% of player on Gamespy. 'Fraggers' seem happy hopping around in Q3 ... JKII is no more dead than SoFII or RtCW - and many, many others.

I bet I could find an interesting game right now ...

OK, I'm back after getting my a** handed to me, then handing someone else their a** ... Good games and players still easily available.

So let's not bemoan the 'death of JKII' as so many have for nearly a year. Let's advice LEC how to better prepare for MP success with JKIII / exp. pack / whatever Activision leaked.

Mike

Prime
03-04-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by txa1265
So far as I can tell, JKII has been dying since ~March 29th of last year.

I don't play much at all online, SP is my thing.

I bet I could find an interesting game right now ...

... Good games and players still easily available.



People have been saying that this game has been dying forever. Maybe it is, but I view it as just a natural progression in the game's lifespan. Sure there aren't as many people playing it as there was in the beginning, but that is to be expected. The patch issues certainly didn't help, but at least Raven tried to fix things, even if they shouldn't have happened in the first place. Imagine how dead this game would be if we were left with 1.03.

The SP point is a good one. Besides the real online junkies, I would say that the majority of players picked up this game for the SP aspect. I know I did. I have made a few skins, and I don't know how many emails I get asking how to use or convert them for SP. IMHO, I think JO is ultimately an SP game, and that is where it really shines. I used to play online a lot, and it was fun for a while. But as has been mentioned before, the same kinds of games get boring. I also agree with the sentiment that MP doesn't really feel like the Star Wars universe. But I suppose this may be an difficult goal when you have to rely on 14 year old geeks to help create that immersion. Funny thing is, I seem to have more fun loading some of the great custom maps out there in SP and spawning Reborn or other custom models I've downloaded and fighting them. That seems to fulfill my dueling cravings. To me it's a lot more like Star Wars than fighting "r0x0r d00d" who pull-kicks all the time :mad:

But for those people who play this game for MP, as far as I can tell there are still a lot of servers around with people playing...

txa1265
03-04-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Prime
<snip>...difficult goal when you have to rely on 14 year old geeks to help create that immersion. <snip>

But for those people who play this game for MP, as far as I can tell there are still a lot of servers around with people playing...

Very good thoughts ...

I'm 36 (actually I got JKII for my 36th b-day, 1 week after release, so I'm quite nearly 37 ;-) and I play this game very differently now than I would have when JK1 came out, when Dark Forces came out, and certainly when I was pumping tokens in the Star Wars arcade game in the early 80's. I play like a Jedi - I really do. I feel completely immersed in the game, like no other.

Perhaps they should just scrap MP for the next version ;-) Only kidding! I think they should do mission-based MP. Light vs Dark, Jedi hunters, Destroy the shield, and so on. We all know different Jedi excel in different things, so you'd have 'see-ers', healers, DFA-spammers :D , and so on.

And don't forget co-op - master & padawan missions! Kyle and Jan missions .... uh, don't go there people!

Mike

AKPiggott
03-04-2003, 02:07 PM
Initially, it wouldn't bother me the least bit if they scrapped MP for the next Jedi game. But if they scrapped MP, there probably wouldn't be enough interest to release any editing tools, so it would hurt the SP editing community.

The original Jedi Knight had the best SP editing community on the internet. The Star Wars setting made it easy for people to make great levels with great stories. I was hoping JO would take the same course, in fact I strongly believed it would. I mean why not? Even Dark Forces had an exceptional SP editing community. Granted, really good SP levels take forever to make (Party Crasher has taken about 9 months so far, although it's nearly finished), but there doesn't seem to be that many really good SP levels in development.

So far JO's SP levels consist of; many badly designed levels involving combat with millions of Reborns and Stormtroopers, about three dozen or so Ladder maps and Occupation (the only SP level out there that is actually any good).

StormHammer
03-04-2003, 02:44 PM
Hmmm..interesting points already raised. Jedi Outcast is one of the few games I've actually attempted to play online, and when the game was first released, I did quite well. I had (and still have) a laggy connection, so I relied mostly on other weapons in FFA, rather than the saber (though I actually won a couple of duels, to my surprise :) ). Anyway, along came the patches, and the saber combat became more difficult, etc, etc., unti it was pointless for me to try and use the saber at all on my laggy connection. I just kept dying, so I gave up.

Now I'm looking forward to the Dark Forces and Jedi Knight mods for SP, which look very promising. My recommendation to those who are growing tired of MP is...if you have the skills to help some of these SP Mods, why not help them? The more people who get on board, the quicker they will be developed, and the more quickly we can play them. :)

As far as future titles go...well, I also would not mind if they separated the game out into two separate games - one for SP, and one for MP. Get two developers, one to focus on MP, the other SP, so they can concentrate their efforts on delivering an excellent SP or MP game. That way they can expand on MP content, tweaking, gameplay dynamics, so that different saber styles and strengths can apply in different game modes, and not simply apply across the board. If they could sit down and really focus on optimising each MP game mode to deliver a slightly different and more rewarding experience, it would make a lot of difference, IMHO. Call it a Jedi equivalent of Unreal Tournament, and maybe then the MP will really shine...while the SP takes a different approach and direction.

Just my three quid...er, pennies...er...oh forget it...

AKPiggott
03-04-2003, 02:52 PM
I agree with the part about seperate developing studios Hammer. RTCW did that and they managed to pull off well developed SP and MP components.

Regarding the DF/JK mods, I'd much rather editors just worked for themselves. I've seen too many TCs go under after years of development and loads of staff. I'd much rather see lots of good SP levels than two or three good full-game-length episodes that go in development for years and never get released.

Solo4114
03-04-2003, 03:22 PM
Objective based gameplay is where it's at. The mention of the light v. dark, rebels v. imperials, blow up the objective/grab the objective/hold territory, etc. style of play is really what I would've enjoyed.

I loved RTCW. The only reason I stopped playing was actually because I was trying to get into this. By the time I went back to RTCW a lot of the folks I'd played with had moved on. And this was a real shame because I'd found a great group of folks to play with. Now I'm playing mostly BF1942 because I've again found a good group of people to play with, but none of 'em play JK2 (and I don't blame 'em).

I tried the UT2k3 demo and found it to be intensely boring. The only marginally interesting gameplay style was bombing run, and even that was fairly weak. It was just more of the same spastic running and shooting with very little feeling of PURPOSE.

What appeals about the Star Wars setting is the grandiosity of the environment and the backdrop of the larger conflicts. That's why the WWII games are doing so well these days. The only reason, I think, that RTCW stopped having a lot of players (at least, I think it stopped) is that people moved on to new games and the mod community never really took off (thanks to PunkBuster -- a good idea, but one that ultimately limited the ability to customize the game beyond releasing new maps).

In terms of design flaws with this game, the more I think about it, the more two things seem apparent:

1.) The guns were boring as hell. Just variations on your standard UT/Q3 theme (another reason why this just felt like a mod). This was true of Elite Force as well, actually. Maybe Raven just can't really design good multiplayer action, although their single player games do rock. (EF had a great single player story, I thought.) The guns also didn't feel "Star Wars" enough to me. With the exception of the various blasters, they mostly felt like Quake or UT ports. Another strike against the immersion factor.

2.) The sabre combat always suffered in one form or another. Here's a big tip for the next designer of a SW MP game that includes the sabre: the lightsabre is always lethal wherever it hits, unless you're slicing off a limb. If you hit the body or head, it's game over. The notion that the sabre is blocked by shields, that you can take multiple hits, etc. is crap. Toss that one out the window PLEASE. Consequently, make it so that ALL moves are equally lethal, and it's simply a question of which move to use when, in order to break past an opponent's defenses. If you set things up in this fashion, the sabre combat will be MUCH more interesting.

That's it for now. If I come up with other improving ideas, I'll post 'em. I DO want to see something good come from the remenants of this game, and I'm not ALL about just bitching. :)

txa1265
03-04-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114
2.) The sabre combat always suffered in one form or another. Here's a big tip for the next designer of a SW MP game that includes the sabre: the lightsabre is always lethal wherever it hits, unless you're slicing off a limb. If you hit the body or head, it's game over. The notion that the sabre is blocked by shields, that you can take multiple hits, etc. is crap. Toss that one out the window PLEASE. Consequently, make it so that ALL moves are equally lethal, and it's simply a question of which move to use when, in order to break past an opponent's defenses. If you set things up in this fashion, the sabre combat will be MUCH more interesting.


I more or less agree, but think it should even be a bit more complex. Think about ObiWan and Dooku in AotC - you should be able - with 'Blue' stance - to take an opponent out without killing him. Perhaps you'd have to crawl off for a while to heal up, have only 1 life and 0 shield. Similarly, arm chops should render you vurtually dead, but still able to do something, again very little life, no agility, etc. But head swipe - lethal. Down chop - lethal. Up-swipe - lethal. And so on.

Mike

Solo4114
03-04-2003, 05:05 PM
Right. Dismembering moves can be used (IE: Vader "disarming" Luke, Dooku "disarming" Anakin), and will effectively take the player out of the game, or, perhaps, to make it more team oriented, put the player in a state of shock. If they don't get force-healed or bacta-healed in X number of seconds, they die, but if they are healed, then they can fight one-armed or something. Though that'd mean coding for ambidexterity. :)

Or if this was a team game, they could be returned to the home base and healed quicker than it'd take them to respawn. Or just have it work the way RTCW's medic function did: you're lying on the ground, near death, but can be revived and fully (or mostly) healed.

Anyway, other stuff to improve the game:

Make the guns less explosive/energy ball focused, and much more blaster focused. As far as I can recall, no one EVER used a flechette cannon, plasma bomb, etc. in the films. You could have a variety of blaster pistols, rifles, etc. and include heavy rifles as well. Honestly, I'd take a major page from either RTCW if you want small unit tactics, or BF1942 if you want large scale battles if you're going to do another MP game. This universe DEFINITELY deserves to have a full-scale team-based objective-focused FPS made for it. And I'd LOVE to have the ability to drive vehicles like the AT-AT, or AT-ST, etc. Someone's making a BF1942 mod for Star Wars, but it'll probably be shut down by Lucasarts before long. Lucasarts should license the BF1942 engine and use that to build basically their own Star Wars mod, or something along those lines. That's what I'd REALLY like to play.

You could have the following classes:

Jedi/Dark Jedi

Trooper

Smuggler/Scoundrel (depends on which name we like better)

Bounty Hunter

Then, within each class, you could pick different specialties. IE: medic jedi, stealth jedi, explosives-based scoundrel, infiltration based bounty hunter, heavy-weapons based trooper, etc. Whatever. Something along those lines.

Simplex
03-04-2003, 07:43 PM
Flechette? A storm trooper using this abomination of a gun (looks like two squares put together, of different sizes, firing little cubes).....the guns SUCKED.

SINGLEPLAYER? I beat it in a couple DAYS! I downloaded TEN single player missions and beat them SO EASY. You need a BIG single player element, much bigger than JKO had, to say the games emphasis and gold lies in the singleplayer.

Quake1, Quake2, had single player stories. Ya beat them then go multiplayer with mods.

But there are TOO MANY MODS. What version? Jedimoves1, 2, 3, .xxxx, promod 1/2/3xxxxxx etc. Its stupid.

Ugh I could go on.

I play Day of Defeat right now. Differing TEAM BASES GAME with different teams and guns, maps arent symetrical, and there are camping spots, and fun weapons......

ImmolatedYoda
03-04-2003, 09:46 PM
well, the flechette launcher is in the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, albeit that technically isnt canon...and the JO version is changed from what it should be (of course). i wish that guns like the blaster and blaster had actual clips, because technically, they do, they have blaster packs and also gas cartridges, but i guess its just easier to give you 500 rounds with no reloading...yes, making JO more "realistic" (in the Star Wars universe) would be cool, but eh, i dont know. video games are meant to be an escape from reality, in my opinion, so anything TOO realistic would suck. anyways...you play DoD too Simplex? cool, i got into it last month, been playing TFC for a long long time. my name is Die Sturmgewehr 44 on DoD...

Jeff 42
03-04-2003, 10:07 PM
The original Jedi Knight had the best SP editing community on the internet. The Star Wars setting made it easy for people to make great levels with great stories. I was hoping JO would take the same course, in fact I strongly believed it would. I mean why not? Even Dark Forces had an exceptional SP editing community.
Huh? Compared to the awesome array of DF add-on levels that have been made, JK SP editing was completely pathetic. So it's no surprise to me that JO SP editing has been even more lacking. The DF mod looks promising, at least.

I still find JO to be a very fun multiplayer game, and I think that the weapon set is great and quite well-balanced, except for the saber being too weak. But even though I don't use the saber much, the combination of different guns with fast-paced gameplay and Force powers makes for some exciting games.

wassup
03-04-2003, 10:48 PM
Uh...you realize it quite hard to mod SP when the frickin' code isnt even released to the community!! YOU HEAR THAT RAVEN, YOU GOT NOTHING!!

/rant

JKII is pretty much a hardcore players/RPG game. All the casual players have left, and the hardcore players are only here to squeeze whatever is left out of this game until SWG rolls around. RPG is quite fun IMO but not very widely accepted, for some reason...:rolleyes:

Me? I'm waiting for a new video card and BF1942...heck of a good game...:D

.:Silver:.
03-04-2003, 10:52 PM
JK2 didn't eat enough roughage as a kid.

It did way too many drugs and drank too much booze.

On top of all of that, it fell in with the bad crowd.

And that is why JK2 died.

DeTRiTiC-iQ
03-04-2003, 11:43 PM
The reason i've been losing interest for so long, is that its actually far more enjoyable playing people who are completely out of my league. Now that the good players are leaving, i'm left with the people who just like to spam certain moves.

That's right, I absolutely LOATHE pull/push. JK was a fully three-dimensional game, flying through the air, air-to-air combat etc, that's what I loved about JK multiplayer. In JK2 you have to be completely insane, or KNOW that your opponent has zero force in order to attempt anything remotely enjoyable and rewarding.

There is something about the game which means that no matter how skilled you are, easy spam moves such as pull/push can stop you dead. I like a game where my own skill allows me to evade such basic traps.

I still play the game occasionally, but that's just out of boredom. I no longer think of JK2 multiplayer as a source of entertainment.

AKPiggott
03-05-2003, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by Jeff 42
Huh? Compared to the awesome array of DF add-on levels that have been made, JK SP editing was completely pathetic. So it's no surprise to me that JO SP editing has been even more lacking. The DF mod looks promising, at least.

To be perfectly honest, I didn't delve too deeply in the online DF scene. I played Mt Kurek, the Dark Tide series, Red Alert and a few others (all were pretty damn brilliant) but that was it. JK's SP editing scene (especially MotS) was excellent I thought and much better than any other of the heavily MP-orientated gaming communities that I've seen. I mean even the editing giant Half-Life only had about four SP levels that were worth playing, everything else was basically a level set in a half-arsed version of Black Mesa where you fight the same old Half-Life villains.

Prime
03-05-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by txa1265
Very good thoughts ...

I'm 36 (actually I got JKII for my 36th b-day, 1 week after release, so I'm quite nearly 37 ;-) and I play this game very differently now than I would have when JK1 came out, when Dark Forces came out, and certainly when I was pumping tokens in the Star Wars arcade game in the early 80's. I play like a Jedi - I really do. I feel completely immersed in the game, like no other.

Nice to see another old fella around here. I'm 28 and remember going through tons of quarters playing the old arcade games.

Uh...you realize it quite hard to mod SP when the frickin' code isnt even released to the community!! YOU HEAR THAT RAVEN, YOU GOT NOTHING!! /rant

JKII is pretty much a hardcore players/RPG game. All the casual players have left, and the hardcore players are only here to squeeze whatever is left out of this game until SWG rolls around. RPG is quite fun IMO but not very widely accepted, for some reason...

First of all, being in the software industry, I don't get why people are so hateful to Raven for not releasing the sourcecode. Now, I don't know if many other game companies release their source code, but I know in my business you are trying to get every advantage over your competators. Releasing source code is not the way to do that. They spent millions developing that code, and you want them to give it away for free so other companies can take advantage of it? The fact that they have released the MP source and development tools is already above and beyond what they needed to do. They have even been active on these forums helping people edit this game!. They didn't have to release anything. Besides, in SP you can make your old models, levels, and scripts. That already gives you a lot of freedom in developing new SP levels. I know there are things you can't do without it, but what do you really want the SP code for? I mean, AKPiggott is making something for SP that looks fantastic!

Also, how is SWG going to replace JO? They are two completely different games. I get the impression that people are expecting the wrong things from SWG, and are going to be sorely disappointed when it comes out. Do people think you'll be able to do FPS combat with lightsabers?

Solo4114
03-05-2003, 11:37 AM
Yeah the push/pull issue is one that was always a problem in this game. Try to do a move that requires jumping, get pushed down and someone slashes you on the floor. With 1.03, you had people who'd pull or push to knock you over, then stab you with the ass-move. The whole thing got rather ridiculous. I think a better way to do it would be to leave drain and absorb as dark and lightside powers, respectively, but also add a "Force Block/Negate" power to the general pool of force abilities. So you'd end up with the kind of scenario where you can both negate each other's force abilities, so pushing and pulling isn't so much of an issue. This was true for the later versions of the game (1.04) it seemed, but in the end, that didn't matter since the sabre was basically useless.

Some other minor tweaks to improve the game: Shields do not stop a sabre. If you're hit with a sabre, it goes right through your shields. The sabre needs to be the most lethal weapon in the game, if only because it's the hardest to use (or should be, anyway) and because only Jedi or Force users should be able to use it. (IE: pure gunners don't get a sabre) This was one of the things that I liked about ProMod. You had to pick whether you'd be a gunner or a force user, and that made sense for the game's purposes.

As for the other Force powers, they were pretty cool, but again, seemed largely irrelevant after a while. Then again, maybe it just comes back to the way that sabre combat worked out and the fact that it was all just another DM variant.

As for how many people seem to want to play RPG style JO, I think that's an indication of people craving the immersive Star Wars experience, which JO just couldn't give them. So it got to the point where you have a bunch of people walking around in a server, bowing, nodding, using all their various emotes, etc., refusing to type-kill (and people abusing that system, naturally), etc. That isn't the point of JO. The point of JO is to fight. Whether you like the DM style of play or not (I don't, as you might've guessed), you have to admit it's pretty damn goofy to wander around chatting with people in a DM server. Don't get me wrong, though. I love RPGing, especially in the SW universe. But JO is NOT the appropriate forum for that.

I'm not saying that etiquette should be tossed out the window either, but some of the rules (IE: sabre down means you can't attack me, keyboard icon means you can't attack me, etc.) ARE pretty goofy, in some settings. But, again, I attribute this to the lack of immersion that the game provided in MP, which led people to make up their own rules to at least try to have SOME kind of immersive experience. Because we can't make the MP game any more immersive than it already is, at least in terms of mods, coding, etc., what we CAN control is how we relate to each other in-game. So some folks adopt a sort of Jedi code for behavior, which, to me, indicates that the game itself failed in giving them the Jedi experience they wanted.

See, this is why I think that a class-based game would've held people's interests longer. It provides for a more immersive experience. You're required to play as a team, you get to choose to specialize in a particular area, and no single class is the uber-class. Plus, you're not just fighting for personal score or kills (>yawn<), you're fighting in the context of a larger cause, even if that cause is simply blowing up reactor X, or stealing the plans to object Y or what have you. Plus, I think that classes would've made the game more balanced. IE: jedi have all the usual force powers and a LETHAL sabre, but eschew shields, bacta, etc. Gunners get access to all the technological goodies, but lack the ability to use force powers. Mixed players get a little of both, but are masters of neither. Or you do it by classes where each class essentially depends on each other in order to survive, thereby creating the NEED for people to work as a team. I dunno. I think a lot of this is wishful thinking on my part, but I really did see potential for this game.

I just hope if a sequel is made, that they learn from the MISTAKES of this game and get things right the FIRST time.

Jeff 42
03-05-2003, 03:06 PM
only Jedi or Force users should be able to use it. (IE: pure gunners don't get a sabre) This was one of the things that I liked about ProMod. You had to pick whether you'd be a gunner or a force user, and that made sense for the game's purposes.

:rolleyes: Kyle Katarn doesn't have to pick whether he's a gunner or a Force user.

Darth Kaan
03-05-2003, 03:39 PM
JKO will be dead when NO ONE is playing it anymore, and so far that is not the case, or this conversation on this forum would not be happening. JKO was extremely popular when it came out because nothing like it had ever been done before, with the 3rd person saber views, animations, and choices of force powers. The force powers and Saber are what initially made and still do make JKO unique amoung all other FPS games.

The patches were just aggrivating to a lot of players and then the plethora of mods started coming out. All of this further divided an already thinning mp community. FFA and Duel were popular for a while but got old quick to many players fast and clans died faster than beers were being drunk at frat parties.

MP lost it's luster because the only goal oriented style of play was CTF. The bottom line wether Merc's agree or not, is the patches ruined CTF by nerfing the saber turning it into a gun only based style of play if you wanted to win, so even it lost its appeal. After all, Frag only fps games are a dime a dozen. More and more gamers want an objective based style of play instead of the tired old fragfest.

A lot of newer games in different genres have come out since JKO and many pc gamers moved on to them. Rarely is game of any genre relased that has a strong following for more than a year or two... except for a select few.

JKO is not one of them.

shock ~ unnamed
03-05-2003, 03:49 PM
Role playing killed JK2.

More people want to pretend to be Darth Chewbacca than develop their skills and compete with the best players.

It may be a FPS at heart but it was turned into a third person RPG by the time the fans were done with it.

What are some of the most common things you hear in a game of JK2?

"Saber off = peace"
"Quit laming"
"My saber was down"
"Stop spamming that move"
"Omfg I was typing"
"No honor"
"Bow"



Look at all the mods that came out for this game.

Pro mod was a serious attempt to fix game play issues and make a better playable game.

3 servers run it.

Toss out any mod name that has emotes where you can spin around like a ballerina.

Hundreds are running them.

Star Wars fans are simply not die hard skilled FPS players.
Sure there are some who are and there were some great gunners and saber players who were just plain rabid when they played but that was the minority.

You can sit here and blame Raven/Lucas Arts all you want but remember one thing.

The only reason these patches got put out was to shut people up who whined and fired off 90 million e-mails complaining non-stop about one or two stupid moves.

The ironic thing is these moves were not a big deal but these people were too lazy and ignorant to spend maybe 10 minutes a day actually learning the game so they became frustrated because they did not feel like true "Jedi" after playing the game for only a few weeks and went on a letter writing campaign.

Look at almost every complaint thread on these forums.

"It's not like the movies".
"I never saw Luke spam kicks and whore back stabs".


Well duh, it's a game and not intended to be like a movie.
Maybe, just maybe some of us want a solid fast paced FPS and maybe just maybe some of us have no interest in pretending to be Darth Yoda and bowing to "show honor".

As far as I’m concerned Raven put out a damn near perfect game/concept and bunch whiny Star Wars geeks who have never even played first person shooters destroyed it.

As much as I enjoy Star Wars, I have never despised the fans more than I do now after what they did to an incredible game and a once blossoming community.

griff38
03-05-2003, 04:10 PM
Well Shock............you are correct, and well informed 4 a newbie.

wassup
03-05-2003, 09:34 PM
I think that is Homosexual Ewok...if it is Welcome Back!! :D

Luc Solar
03-06-2003, 04:39 AM
Careful, wassup! Don't blow his cover! :D

Solo4114
03-06-2003, 11:02 AM
Shock's right on a level, but I think that it's not simply because SW gamers are not diehard FPS players. I've been playing FPS's since Wolfenstein 3D, and cut my teeth on multiplay with Duke Nukem 3D. I've played every iteration of Quake in one form or another (TF, WF, etc.), played the original UT for years, then got into RTCW, JO (briefly), and now BF1942.

The problem with this game, which is illustrated by the clamoring for patches, is the same thing that I keep saying: the immersion factor. Plenty of SW gamers would be happy to spend their time kicking ass as jedi, but they really want to FEEL like a jedi when they're doing it. Likewise, if they want to play a scoundrel or bounty hunter, they want to really feel immersed in the game when they're doing it. THAT is why you see the prevalence of RPG servers. People are trying to make this game immersive in a way that just isn't possible without frustrating the purpose of the game itself. This game is an FPS, plain and simple. No matter how hard you try, it will not be an RPG.

Now, FPS can still be immersive, mind you. RTCW had great atmosphere, as does BF1942. Those games really make you feel like you're involved in the environment. You're part of a war, on a mission, etc. I think a few things killed the immersion factor for this game.

1.) The patches. The 1.02 version of the game was never all that immersive specifically because of the uber-moves and bugs included, as well as the fact that sabre combat was essentially a jousting match (no one ever blocked). That's boring and not terribly immersive. It reduced sabre combat to whoever swings first with the toughest stance (usually red) wins. 1.03 reduced the game to a push/pull fest with backstab spamming. Again, not immersive at all. 1.04 added better blocking, but made the sabre a whiffle bat coated with styrofoam and no sharp edges (wouldn't want anyone to get hurt with the thing, now would we). Each of these patches also forced people to relearn the game, which meant that they had to re-immerse themselves in an already poorly designed game.

2.) The gameplay modes. Deathmatch is boring. We need objectives, we need something more to do than just beat the crap out of each other chaotically. 'Nuff said on this.

3.) The balance issues. There are so many little tweaks that would've made this game kick ass if implemented, but never were. IE: shields don't stop sabres, gun users can't use force powers while using guns, running backwards makes you move slower than running forwards (this was added in 1.04, but why so late?), sabres should be 100% lethal, etc. I'll say this: if I EVER design a game, JO will be one of the first games I look at as how not to do things. The game had tons of promise, but never paid off.

Anyway, all of these things led to me growing tired of playing the game. I don't want to play a boring mode of play (IE: DM), but if I do, I end up being torn between my loyalties to play styles. On the one hand, I believe in showing some respect re: honor, etc., but on the other hand, can we PLEASE just actually fight each other for a bit, instead of sitting around emoting and talking??? And when I do play CTF (which was rare -- boring maps, weak lightsabre, same-ol' same-ol' guns), I like to have a bit more of an interesting experience there.

Granted, the game may not be dead, but I'd hardly say it's thriving, and I think that the developers and design choices are the reason why.

Jeff 42
03-06-2003, 02:54 PM
gun users can't use force powers while using guns
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Terrible idea. Also completely out of line with the history of the DF series. As one mode of gameplay, okay, but to force this on everyone would be utterly stupid.

Solo4114
03-06-2003, 05:37 PM
Why would this be stupid? It's perfectly in keeping with established SW canon. Jedi don't use blasters, much less missile launchers, etc. They use lightsabres and the force, plain and simple.

Granted, in the history of DF games (all two of 'em that included force powers), you could use both, but remember, in JK1, you could also use both dark and lightside powers throughout the game (until you had to pick a side). In JK2, in the single player game, you could use both dark and lightside powers THROUGHOUT the game. Take force lightning for example. strictly a dark side power, yet you could blast away with it against Desann if you wanted to.

Just because the SP portion of the game lets you do something is no reason to port that over to the MP game, especially if it'll screw up balance issues.

I think people SHOULD be forced to specialize, at least in certain game modes. If you want a great big free for all with no limits on what you can carry, shoot, use as force powers, how fast you can run, etc., then leave that for FFA and Team FFA. But there definitely ought to be class-based gameplay where you have to give up some things to get other things.

I'm also not advocating that gun users get ALL guns or that force users get ALL force powers. Rather that the specialize in being able to perform certain tasks extremely well, but not be able to perform others. The Jedi medic can heal, but can't use force speed. The Jedi scout can use force speed, but can only use level one self-heal and can't use ANY team heal functions, etc., etc.

By the same token, the bounty hunter can use light blasters and maybe some entrapment techniques, and can fly, but can't wield any heavy weapons (otherwise, how the hell do you fly?). The smuggler can sneak around and use medium weapons, but can't fly. The assault trooper can use heavy weapons, gets tons of armor, but moves slowly. Etc. You get the point.

I think this would add real variety to the gameplay and make for MUCH more interesting gameplay, especially when set against the backdrop of completing a given objective or securing territory.

For my money, I wouldn't have a problem with ditching the FFA mode altogether for the next game and ONLY having the gameplay be objective-focused and class-based. I know not everyone agrees, and that some people really do enjoy DM and such, but honestly, I think the times are a-changing in that respect. More and more people are being drawn from straight DM gameplay to objective/class gameplay.

Prime
03-06-2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114
Why would this be stupid? It's perfectly in keeping with established SW canon. Jedi don't use blasters, much less missile launchers, etc. They use lightsabres and the force, plain and simple.

Uh, not plain and simple. Luke uses a blaster and explosives in Empire Strikes Back.

Originally posted by Solo4114
Granted, in the history of DF games (all two of 'em that included force powers), you could use both, but remember, in JK1, you could also use both dark and lightside powers throughout the game (until you had to pick a side). In JK2, in the single player game, you could use both dark and lightside powers THROUGHOUT the game. Take force lightning for example. strictly a dark side power, yet you could blast away with it against Desann if you wanted to.

Just because the SP portion of the game lets you do something is no reason to port that over to the MP game, especially if it'll screw up balance issues.

Isn't it? I mean, if you are allowed to do all these things in Sp, why shouldn't you be able to do them in MP? Players are going to want to be able to do the things they can in SP. But I agree that it has to be balanced gameplay.

Originally posted by Solo4114
I think people SHOULD be forced to specialize, at least in certain game modes. If you want a great big free for all with no limits on what you can carry, shoot, use as force powers, how fast you can run, etc., then leave that for FFA and Team FFA. But there definitely ought to be class-based gameplay where you have to give up some things to get other things.

For my money, I wouldn't have a problem with ditching the FFA mode altogether for the next game and ONLY having the gameplay be objective-focused and class-based. I know not everyone agrees, and that some people really do enjoy DM and such, but honestly, I think the times are a-changing in that respect. More and more people are being drawn from straight DM gameplay to objective/class gameplay.

Why force players into classes and eliminate game types? Why not just add these options? Don't impose your own preferences on others and force them to play that way. Just give people lots of options to play the game the way they want.

Mr. Mofo
03-06-2003, 08:43 PM
Mmmm, I think half the posts say EXACTLY the same thing.

Like the gameplay of Wolfenstein or Counterstike? Then PLAY Wolfenstein or Counterstrike. I like all the different ways of killing people in JK2, besides just shooting. Perhaps the lightsabers dont do enough damage, and that damn grenade launcher is broken, but I pretty much enjoy everything else.

Solo4114
03-07-2003, 10:41 AM
I know Luke uses a blaster and explosives, but he's also not a Jedi in Empire. Maybe the way to do it would be to let you mix your abilities, but not be as skilled with the various abilities. That wouldn't screw up balance, I don't think.

As for forcing people to play class based gameplay, I won't mind if they leave in a DM style mode of play. That's cool by me, I just won't play it. What I'm saying is that if they ditched it altogether, I wouldn't mind either. And I think that a lot of people out there wouldn't mind, based on what games seem popular these days. Then again, if they wanted it, what the hell. Let 'em play. Doesn't matter to me, long as I can still play the class-based style.

We definitely agree that balance is paramount in terms of game design and porting abilities from SP to MP. As long as it doesn't screw up balance, I think people should be allowed to do it, but balance must be preserved. And preferably not in the sense of nerfing all the weapons to the point where they're balanced, but rather differentiating the JOBS that weapons perform. And let's keep the weapon styles somewhat inventive, shall we? No more straight recycling of UT weapons. You can have mostly blaster weapons and still be creative. Or you can offer other hand weapons, such as vibro axes and knives, or force staves and pikes.

As for going and playing the other games if we don't like the gameplay of JO, well, that's kind of the point of this thread: that's exactly what people have been DOING and will continue to do over time, which causes the community to dwindle even further.

Anyway, does anyone have any other theories as to 1.) how to improve the game or 2.) what about the game itself has caused a decline in players?

AJL
03-07-2003, 11:13 AM
I don't know if this game is dead or dying. For me it is
still OK game and pretty fun to modify and play...

But on the other hand I am a guy who doesn't play
many different games ( I play "only" these games:
JK2, AVP2 and also that "prehistoric" AVP1 )

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

But whats wrong in JK2 (what may be "killing" it...)

I my opinion one of its most irritating things is its
cheat protection...

It DO WORK.. I mean i haven't met any cheaters
(or if i have then i haven't noticed them)

But at the same time as it prevents peoples from
cheating it also prevents me from using ANYof my
custom skins, models, ...

Spider AL
03-07-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Solo4114:

As for forcing people to play class based gameplay, I won't mind if they leave in a DM style mode of play. That's cool by me, I just won't play it. What I'm saying is that if they ditched it altogether, I wouldn't mind either. And I think that a lot of people out there wouldn't mind, based on what games seem popular these days.Yeah, well a lot of people who have been playing and appreciating the DF series since its conception WOULD mind, so think it over one more time. Guh, the number of people who have popped up since JO's release demanding that others be forced to play their idea of the perfect game is sickening in its enormity.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Then again, if they wanted it, what the hell. Let 'em play. Doesn't matter to me, long as I can still play the class-based style.How magnanimous of you. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Anyway, does anyone have any other theories as to 1.) how to improve the game or 2.) what about the game itself has caused a decline in players?1.) There are many, MANY threads archived on this board FULL of suggestions on how to increase the probability that the next game will achieve competitive success. Anyone who wants to discuss this subject should first go back and read them all to fully understand the intentions and desires of the community.

2.) It was the stupid Star Wars fanboys that largely caused the demise of our beloved JO. It was they who made it unbearable for competitive players to populate the community, both by their continued Raven-lobbying to change the game into a foolish RPG, and their incessant whining on public servers.

Solo4114
03-07-2003, 07:15 PM
Well, Al, interesting points, and a boatload of sarcasm, but let's look past the sarcasm to some of the substance of what you said.

In response to your statement that we look at other posts, well, that's fine, but some of us might like to discuss it here as well, if that's quite alright with you. If you're a moderator and you don't like this thread, close it. Otherwise, thanks for sharing. We'll keep discussing things here.

As to the cause of the game dying being "stupid fanboys" who complained about the game to the point where competitive players were unable to play, and that they requested an RPG, well, you could easily argue that the death of the game was caused by stupid "1337" gamers who were only too happy to spam a particularly effective move over and over and over ad nauseum. But that doesn't really answer my original question, which was, if you'll read closely, what about the game ITSELF, NOT about the community, caused the decline of the game. I'm talking things like design choices, balance issues, environmental immersion, play modes, etc. Not whether folks whined to get X, or whored move Y.

Throwing barbs back and forth at each other about why various portions of the community killed the game won't get us anywhere. What we should try to do is discuss what about the game itself was flawed, so as to illustrate how to AVOID said flaws in a future game. And if you want to direct me to other threads, well, that's fine, but why not use this thread to collect, address, and examine the issues? It's also a fairly recent thread, as opposed to a number of the threads on this board (which also indicates a drop-off in fan interest), so I see no problem with continuing the discussion here. If a mod disagrees with me, so be it. But until I hear from one of them, how about a little less vitriol next time and a little more constructive discussion about the game itself, rather than the community? Discussions of the community and its flaws will be endless, pointless, and divisive. Why not focus on common issues relating to the design of the game itself that most can agree on or at least debate rationally?

DeTRiTiC-iQ
03-08-2003, 12:05 AM
"1337" gamers? ah, those would be the ones that both the RPGers AND competitive players hate.

I've yet to meet a competitive player of any good skill who ever spams moves.

Anywho, i'm of the belief that if JK2 had been tested to the same extent as say Quake 3, or had a pre-release demo with multiplayer (ie so Raven were made aware of issues much sooner), then the game might have had some more substance.

The game was rushed and it shows.

RpTheHotrod
03-08-2003, 12:54 AM
I say we all quit JK2 and start playing TFC :) Woohoo!

wassup
03-08-2003, 01:57 AM
Uh...TFC is even deader than JKII imho...

ImmolatedYoda
03-08-2003, 11:29 AM
yes, TFC is dead yet there are constantly what, 400+ servers running it? and im one of those 1000s of players populating those servers :D .

Solo4114
03-08-2003, 12:43 PM
Agreed. EXTENSIVE public playtesting is essential to a good game. BF1942 and RTCW both had public multiplayer demos released PRIOR to the final game's release and both made substantial improvements on the multiplayer aspects of the games. Granted, all companies tend to "rush" games out the door nowadays, but when you offer the public the chance to playtest and comment on the game, you give the public the opportunity to help improve your game. I'd bet that if they'd released a public MP demo prior to the game's release, and people had made the same suggestions for changes that led to the patches, the community wouldn't have been as fragmented as it ended up.

A very good point, DeTRiTiC.

As for the "1337" gamers, yeah, those would be the people that everyone hates. The ones who are content to spam moves over and over if it gets them the win. GOOD competitive gamers are actually able to make everyone happy, in that they don't spam moves, the generally respect server rules (IE: no attacking when sabres are down), and they present skilled opponents that give you a good challenge.

Unfortunately, there's a boatload of "1337" gamers out there. ;)

Spider AL
03-08-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114:

Well, Al, interesting points, and a boatload of sarcasm, but let's look past the sarcasm to some of the substance of what you said.No, let's not look past the sarcasm, it was integral to the post, and made some of the most important points, simply by its presence. :)

Originally posted by Solo4114:

In response to your statement that we look at other posts, well, that's fine, but some of us might like to discuss it here as well, if that's quite alright with you. If you're a moderator and you don't like this thread, close it. Otherwise, thanks for sharing. We'll keep discussing things here.Oh, by all means continue to repeat and rehash things that have been said already in five-gazillion other threads by reams upon reams of people of varying degrees of qualification, if you want to. My suggestion that you should review pertinent past-threads was for your benefit, not for mine. If you want to continue wasting your own time though, feel free.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

As to the cause of the game dying being "stupid fanboys" who complained about the game to the point where competitive players were unable to play, and that they requested an RPG, well, you could easily argue that the death of the game was caused by stupid "1337" gamers who were only too happy to spam a particularly effective move over and over and over ad nauseum.I'll just stop you there, because it's not a subjective topic. 1.03 ruined the game, 1.03 was precipitated by fanboys, therefore fanboys were responsible for the destruction of the game. Quod Erat... You know the rest.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

But that doesn't really answer my original question, which was, if you'll read closely, what about the game ITSELF, NOT about the community, caused the decline of the game. I'm talking things like design choices, balance issues, environmental immersion, play modes, etc. Not whether folks whined to get X, or whored move Y. Well not to put too fine a point on it, but your original question was irrelevant. In my opinion there were only minor flaws with 1.02, and it could have become a truly successful competitive experience if it hadn't been for the premature advent of 1.03. It was that fanboy-portion of the community that caused the game's decline. You can surmise all you like about what flaws the game possessed, but frankly it was never given a chance to succeed on its own merits, so the point is moot.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Throwing barbs back and forth at each other about why various portions of the community killed the game won't get us anywhere.Sorry to burst your bubble, but neither will this thread. As I've said before, it's all been done before, the game is deceased and our only hope is the next product in the DF series.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

What we should try to do is discuss what about the game itself was flawed, so as to illustrate how to AVOID said flaws in a future game.Why? Is the future developer of DF4 going to join us for the debate? If so, I'm all for it.

No, honestly, I am.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

If a mod disagrees with me, so be it. But until I hear from one of them, how about a little less vitriol next time and a little more constructive discussion about the game itself, rather than the community? Mods are here to enforce the rules, as you should know. To this extent, their actions are predictable.

Secondly, the community is pivotal in any discussion of why the game did not succeed, as a section of said community carries responsibility for its failiure. The section that wanted five-hour sabre duels. The section that wanted to make an RPG of an FPS. The section that wanted no guns on guns servers. The people that wanted to force their view of the game onto all other players, everywhere. In other words, fanboys.

As for vitriol, I'm probably more alkaline than acidic, as I'm confirmedly bitter. Colour me unrepentant too. I've seen it all before. :)

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Discussions of the community and its flaws will be endless, pointless, and divisive. Why not focus on common issues relating to the design of the game itself that most can agree on or at least debate rationally?If you believe that any aspects relating to gameplay balance are commonly accepted enough to debate rationally, you're misguided. This is another reason you should review past threads, as you'd see that nobody ever agrees on what needs to be balanced, nor on how much it needs to be tweaked. Gameplay balance is as subjective an idea as "fun", and any patch that changes gameplay, no matter how slightly, annoys some group of people.

A widespread malady of the mind in the gaming community today is the erroneous belief that "balance" is the holy grail of gaming. What does it mean? Different things to different people. Some people want all weapons to be equally powerful, and they call that "balance." The question of whether total balance is ever possible aside, what's the point of having different weapons if they can all be used as effectively as each other? In my day, powerful guns were an enjoyable focus of a level, the RL in Quake, the Railgun in Q2, the Conky or Surge in JK. Where did this "I want to be able to use my ST Rifle effectively against your Flechette" come from? What sort of whiny nonsense is this? There are different tools, use the right one for the job you want to do!

Some people think "balance" is the act of tweaking powerups/weapons until spam is not possible. To them, I say wake up. Spam is an act of lameness, and there will always be lamers discovering new and interesting ways to spam. You can never stop spam, ever, because you will never stop lameness. It is a fact of life, like lag, like whining, like oxygen.

A game should be devised, released, and after about half a year, a bugfix-only patch should be released. Gameplay is not a science, it's an art, and community involvement in gameplay-altering patches has never done any good. Ask Tribes 2 players. Ask disgruntled CS players. Games succeed or fail on their own merits, and they should be allowed to live or die on the basis of whether they're good or not. It's that simple.

So suggest all you will, suggest "balancing" tweaks, suggest game modes, suggest graphical improvements, suggest anything you like, and believe me when I say that I hope it does some good. I really do. I don't think it will, but I hope it does.

All the best to your worthy endeavour. :D

shock ~ unnamed
03-08-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114
As for the "1337" gamers, yeah, those would be the people that everyone hates. The ones who are content to spam moves over and over if it gets them the win. GOOD competitive gamers are actually able to make everyone happy, in that they don't spam moves, the generally respect server rules (IE: no attacking when sabres are down), and they present skilled opponents that give you a good challenge.

Unfortunately, there's a boatload of "1337" gamers out there. ;)


Whoa hold up there.

"GOOD competitive gamers are actually able to make everyone happy, in that they don't spam moves"

Competitive gamers play to win.
Not to please or put on a good show, but to win.
No argument is even remotely possible on that one.

Go to any ladder or professionally sponsored game tournament and ask the competitors something like:

"Hey can you guys competing at QuakeCon not use the rocket launcher so much, it's spamming and not fair".

I bet after the laughter dies down chances are you would be escorted off the property.

Come on man, you made some good points in a few of those posts but I really hope that was sarcasm because that is just absurd.

As for respecting server rules on public servers?
That just comes down to the individual.
It has nothing to do with patches or game play "issues".
If a person is going to be a **** he will be a **** in JK2, the Sims or even Zoo Tycoon.


And as for “1337 gamers”.
When I play I play to win.
Sure I screw around and goof off in public matches, but in any ladder match or tournament I compete in, winning is the only concern.
Granted that does not mean one should go to any means such as client side hacking but as far as game play is concerned, anything goes.

This notion that “winning is not important” is just plain stupid.

Virtually every single competitive online game has some type of scoring system for a reason.
People want to win, it is human nature.

Slapping a label like “1337 gamers” on people who are simply trying to win is really childish and shows a lot of jealousy for those who do succeed in these games.

Solo4114
03-08-2003, 08:22 PM
See, Al, I actually tried to be polite and such. I didn't want to get into a pissing contest with you, and I still don't. But you know what? You can sit around a bitch and moan about how fanboys ruined the game. It doesnt' make it true. What ruined the game was not fanboys bitching, but rather the way in which the changes they advocated for were implemented. 1.02 was flawed and needed fixing. Take the blocking, for example. The way blocking in 1.02 was implemented, it really was just a jousting match of who swung first, since you knew there'd never be any chance of your swing NOT connected. That's why a lot of folks asked for blocking similar to SP's method. Honestly, to me, the SP style of sabre fighting was the ideal, but it was never effectively implemented because each time they "fixed" the game, it created a new problem.

Adding a blocking element to the game made it decidedly more interesting than simply swinging your sabre around with no chance of it being blocked. Granted, the WAY in which the change was implemented was not good. The blockign went a bit too far, did not have any real logic involved in it (as ArtifeX proved with ProMod), and made the game less enjoyable.

There were other problems with the patches, too. The failure to fix the uber-ass-move was a BIG problem with 1.03. It led to people spamming that one move over and over and over. To me, that's the sign of a lousy game. When a game devolves into a one-move match and it's all a question of who draws first, I move on, as I suspect a great many people did. ArtifeX himself even quit after he realized that the game had become a simple one-move affair, and I don't blame him. A lot of people wanted the DFA fixed from 1.02 because it had no drawbacks to it, the same way that the backstab in 1.03 did. All you'd do was get into a group, spam the move, and watch your score climb. No challenge there, no real interest there.

Now, as for the issue of balance, it's not a question of "oh please don't use the big gun" or don't let there be powerful weapons. Nor is it a question of "let my toothpick beat your battleaxe." The way I define balance is that weapons have an advantage and a disadvantage to their use. The RL in Quake has advantages. It's incredibly powerful and can be used effectively at medium and long ranges. In close, though, it has its disadvantages. If you misfire the thing, or if you try to kill someone right next to you, you'll seriously damage yourself in the process. That's balance. Pros and cons associated with the weapon. In UT, the flak gun was another well balanced weapon. It was devastating at close range with the primary fire, and the secondary fire was extremely powerful as well. Yet, it had offsetting disadvantages: it's primary attack sucked at long range, and you had to accurately calculate your trajectory if you were going to use the secondary fire long range. Same with the ASMD. Great at long range sniping duties, reasonably powerful with the secondary fire, but the primary fire sucked in short range unless you were really accurate with it. That's balance. I don't think it's a terribly difficult concept to grasp.

In terms of how the game COULD have been (and SHOULD have been) balanced with sabre fighting, the various uber moves should've been devastatingly powerful and able to smash through most defenses with ease. Offsetting that, however, would be the fact that they'd have either a long recovery time, or taht they'd somehow leave you open for attack if you missed. These changes were implemented, albeit in a flawed way. Instead of being mostly unblockable, the blocking in 1.04 and 1.03 to an extent (with the exception of the backstab) blocked these moves a bit too easily.

Overall, in terms of force powers, I thought they were pretty balanced in the later patches. Dark side wasn't all powerful, and light side had no real offensive powers. Using grip was great, for example, except taht you'd better hope the enemy hasn't turned on absorb. Absorb's wonderful, but you have to use it at the right time, or else you drain it too far. Drain is great, but only if the enemy has force mana left. These are a good balance of advantages and disadvantages.

Now, as for competitive gamers, I was quite serious in what I said. There's nothing wrong with playing to win. There's nothign wrong with using particular tactics on a server, provided that server has rules that permit it. And I don't blame you for using a single move over and over, if you're on a competitive server and it's a no-holds-barred match. I find it boring to play against someone who does that, but as long as you're not breaking the server's rules, knock yourself out. The "1337" gamers I was refering to are the lame people who tend to disregard rules, do what they want, and basically ruin everyone's good time. I see this crap all the time in online gaming, and it basically comes down to people not respecting server rules or the other players in the game. My problem with people who spam moves over and over is that it makes the gaming experience much less fun for me. Now, if I'm in a competitive setting, IE: a ladder match, then it's likely a no-holds-barred situation and I've got to expect that to happen. Unfortunately, the game and the way it was designed only encouraged that type of behavior.

This was one of the crucial failings of JO. It never really balanced it's powerful moves. You could use a single move or a single combination over and over and over again and win most times. Or it'd simply become a question of who had better timing in using those moves. When a game is designed such that it rewards people for using a single move over and over, that's a boring game. You might as well just only have one or two attacks in that situation. ANd that's what really hurt this game, even from 1.02: uber moves. I'm not saying there shouldn't be powerful attacks, only that they should have a corresponding disadvantage. In JO, Raven never quite figured this out.

Al, you put 1.02 up on a pedestal and say that it could've been a great game. I disagree. I think that 1.02 was boring, in that it had very little strategy outside of timing your swing, and it had flaws in its uber-moves. I think that 1.03 could've been great, if the blocking had been implemented the way ArtifeX ended up doing it, and the backstab had been nonexistent. Had that been the version that the community got, I think that the real split that was seen in the community never would've happened, or at least would've been much more subdued.

Do I think that the devs read this board? Not really. Maybe they glance at it occasionally, but I doubt that they really follow it closely anymore. If they do, they sure are quiet about it. But see, there's this great thing called the "Marketplace of Ideas." It's the basic concept that if we keep discussing things, eventually, we'll get to a good result. So I'm going to keep on discussing this issue, until no one else really feels like talking about it anymore. Even if the people who develop DF4 don't read the boards here (though if I were going to make a game, I'd want to know what the fan community felt, however divided it was), maybe some other game developer does, and maybe they'll take a tip from the discussions in here.

DeTRiTiC-iQ
03-08-2003, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
Whoa hold up there. [big long post].

Good players don't spam, they use attacks only as much as they need to. Good players may use individual moves a lot in succession, but that's not the same as spamming. Because with a good player almost every single shot is well aimed and will probably hit you unless you evade.

"Spammers" just fire non-stop without really aiming in the hope that they'll actually hit something, the problem with pull/push spamming is that it actually WORKS.

A Spammer is one of those people who doesn't get many kills, but they lag the server to hell and back with non-stop shots. In JK2 its quite evident with lightning users, since they keep firing even when they're not actually facing the target.

shock ~ unnamed
03-09-2003, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Good players don't spam, they use attacks only as much as they need to. Good players may use individual moves a lot in succession, but that's not the same as spamming. Because with a good player almost every single shot is well aimed and will probably hit you unless you evade.

"Spammers" just fire non-stop without really aiming in the hope that they'll actually hit something, the problem with pull/push spamming is that it actually WORKS.

A Spammer is one of those people who doesn't get many kills, but they lag the server to hell and back with non-stop shots. In JK2 its quite evident with lightning users, since they keep firing even when they're not actually facing the target.

True but my whole beef with the “Spam” thing is:

1-Spam by “definition” is the same thing over and over correct?

2-If a person repeats the same tactic; you know what is coming, so prepare for it.

Of course any person with even the slightest game plan won’t fall into a pattern of doing the same move/attack over and over so by nature this “spammer” is what many would call a “noob”.

Complaining (not you just anyone in general) that you can’t beat the predictable unskilled player and in turn considering yourself skilled is just kind of silly to me.

The lightning example was actually a good one.

There is always some guy in a FF/SO FFA blasting level 3 lightning like crazy.
Generally the players who ignore him and just run around swinging their sabers have scores much lower than Mr. Lightning.

However the players who zero in on him the second he makes it back to the fight and rush him w/ absorb or grip kick him the second they see him are usually the players with higher scores and ironically, players who don’t get killed by lightning.

People simply don’t put any thought into what they do.
Why bother to learn how to combat Force based attacks?
Just call the person gay or a “lamer” and vote them off the server.

Why bother picking up a gun in a FFA, just run around and try and saber the guy shooting 6 rockets at your head. If you die tell him guns are for noobs and call a vote to kick him.

That sadly, is the JK2 norm and has been for some time.

RpTheHotrod
03-09-2003, 03:41 AM
What ever happened to that JK2 mod that had a TFC feel?

Spider AL
03-09-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Solo4114:

See, Al, I actually tried to be polite and such.Could have fooled me.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

But you know what? You can sit around a bitch and moan about how fanboys ruined the game. It doesnt' make it true. What ruined the game was not fanboys bitching, but rather the way in which the changes they advocated for were implemented.Oh I see. It wasn't the fanboys' fault, it was Raven's fault for listening to them? What rubbish.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

1.02 was flawed and needed fixing. Take the blocking, for example. The way blocking in 1.02 was implemented, it really was just a jousting match of who swung first, since you knew there'd never be any chance of your swing NOT connected. That's why a lot of folks asked for blocking similar to SP's method.You missed out three important words there: "In my opinion". Just because you thought the sabre combat was flawed because it didn't have SP blocking, doesn't make it so.

It was people like you who caused 1.03, people who didn't care whether they ruined things for other people, people who wanted their view of "improvements" inflicted on others before the game even had a chance to mature and develop, and it was a huge, a HUGE surprise (not) when these "improvements" resulted in catastrophic and irrevocable damage to the community. The nerfing of guns. The nerfing of drain and heal, all these things were specifically requested by the fanboys. Well done them.

No, it's not Raven's implimentation that was at fault. The fanboys asked for "SP STYLEE MROE BLOCKINGG SABARS" and they got random auto-blocking. Big surprise, nobody could have predicted that.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

A lot of people wanted the DFA fixed from 1.02 because it had no drawbacks to it, the same way that the backstab in 1.03 did. All you'd do was get into a group, spam the move, and watch your score climb. No challenge there, no real interest there.Yes, the fact that one could turn during a DFA was the only problem with 1.02, and it was indeed a bug. If this bug had been fixed in 1.03 and nothing else changed, all would have been right with the world, and 1.02 could have been left to develop, and succeed or fail, on its own merits.

Instead, Raven listened to what at the time was the most vocal portion of the community, and produced a monstrosity. The fanboys once again.

See the recurring theme here?

Originally posted by Solo4114:

The way I define balance is that weapons have an advantage and a disadvantage to their use. The RL in Quake has advantages. It's incredibly powerful and can be used effectively at medium and long ranges. In close, though, it has its disadvantages. If you misfire the thing, or if you try to kill someone right next to you, you'll seriously damage yourself in the process. That's balance.Don't be foolish, if a weapon is as powerful as the Rocket launcher was in Quake 1, players compensate for any "disadvantages" (or as I like to call them, "realities") associated with that weapon faster than you can scream "WALLHACKZZZ!!!11". The RL in Quake had nothing to DO with balance. It wasn't on the same PLANET as balance. And by your tenuous rationale, the Flechette in JO was balanced because people blew themselves up if they spammed in confined spaces. It was still the weapon intelligent players used 80% of the time.

You can manufacture disadvantages for any weapon, from the AWP to the Redeemer, it makes no earthly difference to anything. Innate POWER is all that's important. There will always be a most powerful weapon in each game, in each arena. Winners will always use that weapon. Whiners will always whine about balance when they do.

The only "balance" that's ever possible, OR DESIRABLE, is the balance between teams. Giving both CTF bases the same weapons, giving both sides of the Force counters to each other. 1.03 ruined that balance. The fanboys ruined that balance.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Same with the ASMD. Great at long range sniping duties, reasonably powerful with the secondary fire, but the primary fire sucked in short range unless you were really accurate with it. That's balance. I don't think it's a terribly difficult concept to grasp.
It's obviously difficult enough to grasp that you've failed to grasp it. You can sit there and call the ASMD balanced when the power of its shock-combo was the cause of some of the biggest upheavals of discontent among the UT player populous? Amazing.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Overall, in terms of force powers, I thought they were pretty balanced in the later patches. Dark side wasn't all powerful, and light side had no real offensive powers.I'm getting the impression that you only played on sabres servers. Only someone who never ever played guns could call the sides "balanced in the later patches".

The Light side was powerful before 1.03. After 1.03? One-horse race. Also a one-force-power-race. Only one power was worth having on either side, Absorb for the lightsiders, Rage for the darksiders. Rage gave a gunner kills, but it left them without a gun a lot, as they were vulnerable to pull. Absorb gave lightsiders a shield that let them keep their gun, and so they shot hundreds of people... but they didn't have the speed of a Rager. All other side-specific powers were useless post-patch.

And anyone who can sit here and claim without a shadow of a doubt that "Drain is great" post-patch, is obviously in need of restraint and medication. Drain IS great, if you want to GET KILLED. Who do you PLAY? the TELETUBBIES?

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Now, as for competitive gamers, I was quite serious in what I said. There's nothing wrong with playing to win. There's nothign wrong with using particular tactics on a server, provided that server has rules that permit it. And I don't blame you for using a single move over and over, if you're on a competitive server and it's a no-holds-barred match. Sorry to burst your martyr bubble, but spammers lose. No truly skilled player gets defeated by a spammer. Spammers are lame, yes, and annoying, yes, but dangerous to anyone with skill? Nope.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Al, you put 1.02 up on a pedestal and say that it could've been a great game. I disagree.You're welcome to your opinion, and we all know how much store I set by it. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Solo4114:

But see, there's this great thing called the "Marketplace of Ideas." It's the basic concept that if we keep discussing things, eventually, we'll get to a good result.A result like 1.03? What a fabulous basic concept that is. Let's all continue to mash our gums on a subject we obviously know nothing about, and maybe someday we'll get the satisfaction of having a Jedi-based game we can all RPG in. :D

shock ~ unnamed: Your post was an eloquent indictment of the fanboyitis that has been a canker on the heart of JO since it's conception.

ryudom
03-09-2003, 10:22 AM
uh i skiped a bunch of posts so this could have been said:

Solo, you can't compare blocking in SP and MP. in SP your fighting against AI, and the saber combat was totaly differant. infact i hated SP saber combat, it felt very sloppy and it luck based heh. MP sabering is alot better imo...

Solo4114
03-09-2003, 10:24 AM
What mod was that? I'd DEFINITELY play a TFC style JO mod if they had one.

Shock, you're right that I'm basically equating lamers = spammers = 1337 players. Under the current style of gameplay, there are ways to beat the spammed attacks. There were ways to beat the spammed attacks in 1.03 too (I found kicking with absorb on to work pretty well, then finishing off with a throw), and you could SORT of beat a spammed DFA in 1.02 (but you'd better wait until the move is finished, since you could still rotate after finishing the move, and the sabre would damage you even if it was in the ground). The problem I have with people like that is that it's boring to play with them or against them. I mean, in the end, they're one-trick-ponies, which I find to be rather dull to play against. Yeah, it's possible to beat them. That's not my issue so much (although a lot of the spammed moves were the most effective and usually were one-hit-kill moves with no real downside to their use). It's more that, while it's beatable, it ends up being boring to play the game at all. THAT's where Raven failed.

Sure you can counter various attacks, but why bother? I mean, if the whole game comes down to trying to stop one attack, it'll just be a big yawn-fest for me. Especially once you develop a decent way to counter the attack. And while it's true that you could counter the spammed attacks in all of the versions, that sure didn't stop people from doing nothing BUT those attacks, since they weren't balanced properly (remember: balance = powerful move with corresponding disadvantage).

If the sabre had been a one-hit kill weapon regardless of what stance you used, regardless of what swing you made, the game would've been infinitely better. Or at least make it, say, a three hit kill weapon for ALL moves and stances.

Actually, in terms of game balance, I think a lot of the console fighting games provide an excellent example of how things are well balanced. Take any of the major titles from any particular time period, from Street Fighter 2 up to the Dead or Alive series, and you'll find well balanced gameplay. There's usually some big heavy dude who, if he hits you with the right combo, can beat you with only three hits. The downside is he's slower than a snail, and leaves himself open to attack (consider this Mr. Red Stance, if you will). Likewise, there's usually some fast little bastard who can jump and flip and throw about 20 punches in the time it takes Mr. Red Stance to throw three. The little guy's attacks aren't that powerful, but they move quickly and he's able to get out of the big guy's range quickly. That's balance.

An even better example are the Bushido Blade games from PS1. I can remember playing Bushido Blade 2, and finding it to be a real joy to duel with other people. You usually had three different stances in that game as well, the weapons were absolutely lethal (two hits and you're dead, or one clean hit and you're dead). The stance you used didn't really matter in terms of how lethal the attack was, it only changed what angle your attack came from or what combination you could do. This made the game much more strategic and less about "Oh, I'll just do this one combo over and over." Plus, each stance had its weaknesses, so no stance ever dominated.

ArtifeX's ProMod had these aspects, and you can see that Raven TRIED to include this style into their gameplay, but ultimately failed in most of their patches. 1.04 was probably about the most balanced of the patches, in that (at least from what I can remember), the uber-moves now had drawbacks to their use, but they also made sabre fighting essentially pointless, since it took FOREVER to kill someone. Which, of course, would lead to stupid rules like, "Ok, no using heal or drain in this match, alright?"

Anyway, I still think that the DF series of games has potential and can go somewhere, if the devs take into account what went wrong with JO. God only knows if or when they'll release a sequel or expansion, though.

DeTRiTiC-iQ
03-09-2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
1-Spam by “definition” is the same thing over and over correct?


In my book spam is the same thing over and over without thinking or considering alternatives. A good player doesn't spam because as soon as that attack becomes unsuitable they switch to something different. Whereas a spammer will keep shooting despite being completely ineffective.

Solo4114
03-09-2003, 11:25 AM
Exactly. A spammer is basically like I said, a one-trick-pony. The spammer doesn't know how to adapt tactics to a changing situation, and doesn't bother to try anything new. They just repeat a single move again and again without bothering to take the time to learn more moves. Unfortunately, the way the game was designed, it tended to lend itself to spamming moves because there often was no reason NOT to spam moves, since they had little by way of disadvantages, and for every player that could counter the moves, there were 50 people happy to get into basically a rugby scrum trying to spam the move first, which usually meant 49 dead people after the first guy did the move.
It didn't mean much in duels, since you could take your time and wear the bastard down, but in FFA, it led to spammers with high scores.

Spider AL
03-09-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114:

It's more that, while it's beatable, it ends up being boring to play the game at all. THAT's where Raven failed.
Ugh, that's such a small-minded thing to say, blaming Raven for the fact that lamers exist. I'll try one more time to shatter your delusion on this subject, this time using the medium of rhyme: lamers will always find a way to lame, no matter the moves, no matter the game.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

It didn't mean much in duels, since you could take your time and wear the bastard down, but in FFA, it led to spammers with high scores.You DO only play Sabres, don't you. There is no way you could be referring to guns and force FFA, DFA spammers lose in guns FFA, flechette spammers lose in guns FFA.

Small historical factoid of some interest: Sabres-only FFA has been the most pointless and stupid game mode the world has ever seen since the days of Dark Forces II. Even people of immense sabre skill never claimed that the FFA victories they'd won amounted to anything, because a mish-mash of people waving sticks around is NEVER close to being a matter of skill, no matter WHAT moves are implemented. That's not Raven's fault, it's just the way things are. If you want sabres with skill, duel or TDM. It's that simple.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Which, of course, would lead to stupid rules like, "Ok, no using heal or drain in this match, alright?"Once again you have everything backwards: The fanboys wanted heal and drain removed from the word go. From the moment the game hit the streets. From 1.02. Why? Because fanboys don't want to play a game, they want to play "let's pretend."

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Anyway, I still think that the DF series of games has potential and can go somewhere, if the devs take into account what went wrong with JO.Listening to the self-serving suggestions of foolish, ill-informed fanboys was what went wrong with JO. Once game developers learn to block out their eternal whinage, THEN the industry will be back on track.

shock ~ unnamed
03-09-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
In my book spam is the same thing over and over without thinking or considering alternatives. A good player doesn't spam because as soon as that attack becomes unsuitable they switch to something different. Whereas a spammer will keep shooting despite being completely ineffective.
That is pretty much exactly what I define it as too.
The thing is some people want to lump those types of people in with those who simply use the most effective tools at their disposal.

Take me for example.
I have done almost nothing but FF dueling since 1.03 and I have swung a saber all of maybe 4 times in the last 6 months.

I’ve been called a kick/whore/lamer/spammer since day one because I simply don’t even bother using the saber at all.
Light saber swinging will get you killed against an experienced FF dueler pure and simple.
They are too slow, too random and too big of a risk so I simply do not use them.

This is why I defend “spammers/noobs/lamers”.
If people got made because all they did was DFA in 1.02 or back stab in 1.03 are they as dumb as people are trying to make them out to be?
Sure they just fired those moves off at any chance they got w/o thought but they at least realized that what they were doing was far more effective than the guy running around trying to look cool by doing 3 hit multi-stance saber combos on a crowd of people.

Solo4114
03-09-2003, 07:28 PM
Shock,

I think your experience only serves to illustrate the problems with sabre combat. You're right that swinging a sabre around, especially when people were able to spam one move over and over with no fear of much retaliation, is pretty damn dangerous. That's an area where Raven failed, I think. The sabre combat should've been much more involved, less random, and more lethal than it ended up being. You're right that the reason why people did the one move kills was because they could. You could still beat them, but the one move was the most effective way to kill. Again, I don't fault people who play competitively and use what tools they're given. I fault the people who'll do those moves over and over, regardless of effectiveness because they want the kill that requires the least amount of keystrokes, though. 1.04, for it's faults with random sabre blocking, at least made it so that the one-hit kill moves had a downside, and I think 1.04 really illustrated the flaws with the REST of the game, when you took away the ability to spam one move without fear of retaliation. Because you could no longer do the one-hit move with impunity, you were left with all the rest of the sabre stances and swings, and they proved to be pretty ineffective.

The fact that in an FF duel situation, you've not ignited your sabre more than four times in 6 months shows REAL problems with the way that sabre combat was implemented in the game. That's why I think all hits should be one to two hit kills, and it should've been more of a question of when to use a particular stance/move/combo in order to either defend yourself or break an enemy's defenses.

I guess what I'd like to see in terms of sabre combat is a sabre that's truly lethal, takes skill to use, and requires you to sacrifice other abilities in order to use. Now, in a sabre-only duel situation, the sacrifice of abilities isn't as much of an issue, since you wouldn't have people using shields, guns, bacta, etc. But the sabre should at least involve skill and not randomize blocking, etc. If ArtifeX's sabre mod had been the default from the start of the game, I think that sabre combat would've been much more interesting. That said, it still would've gotten old with only the DM style of play offered by the game. And had the sabre been truly lethal, I think you'd have seen more use of it in CTF games as well. Then again, I didn't play a whole lot of CTF (the maps never really did much for me), so I might be wrong on that one.

Spider AL
03-10-2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed:

This is why I defend “spammers/noobs/lamers”.Spammers and lamers have a lot in common. Newbies on the other hand are just new to the game, and I don't think they deserve to be lumped in with the crap-tastic spamfesters. ;)

Originally posted by Solo4114:

I think 1.04 really illustrated the flaws with the REST of the game, when you took away the ability to spam one move without fear of retaliation. Because you could no longer do the one-hit move with impunity, you were left with all the rest of the sabre stances and swings, and they proved to be pretty ineffective.Once again you either forget or wilfully blind yourself to the fact that the sabre was made ineffective by 1.03, which was the fault of the fanboys, not the game design.

And for hopefully the last time, you'll never stop spammers spamming, and they'll always achieve a certain amount of success from it, too. Like campers, in fact. Because there will always be a move that's either powerful or quick to do, and there will always be lamers waiting to repeat it over and over and over again. "Balance" won't stop that. Tweaking won't stop it, and nerfing certainly won't stop that. But the lamers will never win the big games, and that's also the way of things.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

I guess what I'd like to see in terms of sabre combat is a sabre that's truly lethal, takes skill to use, and requires you to sacrifice other abilities in order to use.Sacrifice... other..? They always wheel this one out in the end. It's never enough that the sabre should be powerful, is it? You have to plot and scheme to nerf and degrade the experience of gunners on the side. How quaint. :rolleyes:

Mr. Mofo
03-10-2003, 11:25 AM
Bah, turn your back to this so called "balance". Give yourself to the dark side of cheap moves!

Is using a move over and over really all that cheap? Sounds like people are complaining just because they lost. Moves me as much as "you only won cause you used force powers" or "you only won cause you had your saber ON" or "I've got a bad connection, so stand still and do nothing". I think someone who uses these "balanced" powers will be bitched at just as much as some guy pumping out grenades from the flechette gun, simply cause they're winning. People need some excuse for their own inadequacey.

Solo4114
03-10-2003, 11:50 AM
Actually, it's not so much about winning or losing, it's about how much fun the game was to play when everyone only ever does "cheap" moves, or when everyone only uses one move in particular, cheap or not. I want balance to give me variety and fun. I mean, technically, the game is balanced in the sense that everyone can do the uber moves with relative ease. The problem is, if you have this uber move to use, and there's no downside to using it, why bother using anything else? Why not just pull/push the guy down, spin 180 degrees, and use the backstab to kill him? It makes perfect sense if you want to kill the guy. It also makes the game all about using one move or combo over and over. To me, that's boring.

When it came to dueling (as opposed to FFA games), force on or off, I was pretty good. I don't claim to be a master, since I didn't really play often enough to get to that level, but I was usually able to defend myself against people using these moves. One on one, the moves weren't all that tough to handle. But, because of the spammers and lamers, opponents would keep trying it since it was the easiest, quickest way to getting a kill. It just made the game intensely boring.

The sabre's weakness with other swings led to people using the strongest move possible, even if it looked ridiculous, made the game less fun to play, etc., simply because the move was a guaranteed kill if you hit and because there was no real downside to doing it. The worst thing that would happen might be that you'd miss and have to try it again.

Al, as for your tirade on fanboys, I get your point, I disagree with it, and we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this. It's not willful blindness, just a difference of opinion. I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong. I'm done with this particular debate on whether fanboys broke the game or whether the game had other flaws in it in addition to the way Raven patched it.

On a similar note, we disagree about what kind of game we want to play. You seem to want to play a quake style game where you have access to all weapons, powers, abilities, etc. I want to play a more limited game where you can be a master of one ability, but not be able to use another, including things like guns. You like a free-for-all style (not necessarily FFA, mind you, just the ability to use whatever whenever), and I want a more class-based system similar to TFC, RTCW, BF1942, etc. Difference of opinion. Now, before you throw out the argument that "You're trying to force people to play a particular way," consider the following.

1.) I have no problem leaving the FFA/TDM/Duel/DM style of play in a game. I think it's a good idea, if it broaden's the game's appeal. I do, however, want to have the option to ALSO play the class based style. I'd like to have the style of gameplay that I prefer implemented. I don't particularly care if they throw out the styles I don't like, but I'm not advocating that they do so. So I'm not really trying to force anyone into anything here, I'd just like to be able to play the game the way I want to play it. If others want to play it differently, that's fine, just give me the option to play it the way I like. Given an "either or" situation, I'd pick my style of play over the DM style. I don't really see that as forcing my opinion on someone else, I just see it as voicing my opinion. If you want to voice a different opinion, knock yourself out. That's what the forums are here for.

2.) If voicing one's own opinion is equivalent to "forcing" your style of play on someone else, you're just as guilty. If saying that "the game should work this way, not that way" is forcing your opinion, then you're doing the exact same thing by claiming that the game should be played the way it was with 1.02, with no classes, no objectives, no blocking, etc.

There is actually a very easy solution to your problems if you view 1.02 as the Holy Grail of JO gameplay. Play 1.02. Reinstall your game, don't install any patches, and play to your heart's content. I'm sure you can find other likeminded individuals to play with on a server, or you can host your own. No one forced you to patch, and given the public outcry about 1.03 and 1.04, I'm sure there's plenty of folks who'd be happy to play your style. You also won't be forcing anyone to play that way, you'll just be exercising your option NOT to play the patched version.

Anyway, to sum things up, I don't think game companies should necessarily make their games "either/or" situations, where you can either play a DM style with full access to all weapons/equipment/powers or play a class-based system where you give up abilities to get other abilities. Ideally, the game should, out of the box, function with minimal bugs, offer a wide variety of gameplay styles, and cater to both sides of the debate in question. That's what I'd like to see most.

Spider AL
03-10-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114:

Actually, it's not so much about winning or losing, it's about how much fun the game was to play when everyone only ever does "cheap" moves, or when everyone only uses one move in particular, cheap or not. I want balance to give me variety and fun.Once again you phrase your ideas as if "balance" is some sort of deity. Apart from your earlier comments about weapons "having disadvantages as well as advantages" which all weapons have in every game anyway, you don't even appear to know what you think "balance" means.

Secondly, fun. Now, fun is a subjective thing. The people you're complaining about, the lamers, the spammers, they're having fun while spamming you. Yes, they're craptastic. Yes, we agree on that point. But they're still having fun. They don't spam weapons or moves purely to annoy you personally, at least I hope not. So here's the juice: if you want "fun" do what ALL dedicated players have done since the days of DF2, find some people you like who play the same way as you and then, PLAY THEM. A public server is a place for practice, not for fun. It's a place for familiarizing yourself with the game, and for training against a wide range of opponents to increase your understanding of the game's mechanics.

This is the same in ALL games. Pub servers are pretty much ALWAYS full of lamers, spammers, unpleasant people, people who practice more than you, the whole kit and kaboodle. If you're looking for "fun", you're looking in the wrong place when you play strangers. Play your friends and online acquaintances for "fun". It's not the game's fault if you don't have fun on public servers. It's not Raven's fault. It's not even the spammers' fault. It's just the way things are, and always have been.

This was one of the most important points, in fact, during JO's genesis. There were a lot of SW fanboys running around who believed that their idea of fun should be forced onto other players. They didn't find RPG servers when they wanted to RPG, they went onto public FFA servers and demanded RPGing. They didn't look for duel servers when they wanted to duel, they went onto guns servers, took over the proverbial landing pad and kickvoted anyone who wanted to play guns, off.

They whined to Raven en masse, and Raven produced 1.03 to cater to what they saw as "the community". But they were only catering to foolish fanboys, and since fanboys know nothing about what makes a good game, their suggestions ruined JO for us all.

Because they never got the idea, you see. They never realized that even though games are supposed to be fun, fun isn't guaranteed at all times for all people. Fun takes as much effort to accumulate as skill does. Come to think of it, they never realized that one had to expend energy; make an effort to attain skill, either.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

I mean, technically, the game is balanced in the sense that everyone can do the uber moves with relative ease. The problem is, if you have this uber move to use, and there's no downside to using it, why bother using anything else? Why not just pull/push the guy down, spin 180 degrees, and use the backstab to kill him? It makes perfect sense if you want to kill the guy. It also makes the game all about using one move or combo over and over. To me, that's boring.

1.03 was indeed boring, like that. If 1.03 had merely been a DFA bugfix, it would have made a brilliant game. Sadly, the fanboys were abroad that even.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Al, as for your tirade on fanboys, I get your point, I disagree with it, and we're not going to see eye-to-eye on thisAnd I'm glad to see you're keeping an open mind. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Solo4114:

It's not willful blindness, just a difference of opinion. I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong. I'm done with this particular debate on whether fanboys broke the game or whether the game had other flaws in it in addition to the way Raven patched it.I'm not interested in your dubious "opinions" on this subject, Solo, and this was never a debate. It's not a subjective issue. It's factual. 1.03 ruined any chance the game had to succeed, and the fanboys precipitated 1.03. It's that simple, and anyone who was alive during the period that led up to 1.03 (and is not a fanboy) would be aware of this.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

On a similar note, we disagree about what kind of game we want to play. You seem to want to play a quake style game where you have access to all weapons, powers, abilities, etc. I want to play a more limited game where you can be a master of one ability, but not be able to use another, including things like guns.Yes, the way I like to play is the way the Jedi Knight series has been played since its creation. What you want is tantamount to demanding that UT be transformed into TFC. Now, I have no problem with people who want a class-based game mode. That's what mods are for. :p

Originally posted by Solo4114:

If voicing one's own opinion is equivalent to "forcing" your style of play on someone else, you're just as guilty. If saying that "the game should work this way, not that way" is forcing your opinion, then you're doing the exact same thing by claiming that the game should be played the way it was with 1.02, with no classes, no objectives, no blocking, etc. Once again you miss the obvious with aplomb:

You want to change something. That means you're proactive. I've been playing these games since the year dot, and have enjoyed their unique flavour. I merely wish to continue to enjoy that flavour. Now review your nonse... er... post, and rethink. :D And yes, I'm aware that you're magnanimous enough to say things like 'I wouldn't mind if they left DM in my wondrous class-based RPG friendly ideal JK game' but frankly that's Patronese, a language I don't speak.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

There is actually a very easy solution to your problems if you view 1.02 as the Holy Grail of JO gameplay. Play 1.02.I'd be doing just that, if there was a healthy community associated with it. You see, when one reaches a certain level, one is more concerned with what the world associated with a game will be like, than what the game itself will be like. For example, if the JO 1.04 community was strong, I'd still happily be playing 1.04. I hope this clarifies things for you.

James Brophy
03-10-2003, 02:24 PM
THis GAME IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO MORE 32 PLAYER SERVERS!!!
HARDLY ANYONE PLAYS IT!!!!!!!!!!!
I used to play this game 5 hours aday then my fav server was taken down. Ever since this game has been dying. Its sad beacuse i like JK2 but im leaving it now beacuse it is DEAD!:rolleyes:

Prime
03-10-2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114
Actually, it's not so much about winning or losing, it's about how much fun the game was...

This is what is most important to me too, because I play this game because it is a Star Wars game, and I like the thought of spending some time in that universe. Perhaps that makes me a Fanboy. However, I certainly realize that there are people who play this game for competative reasons, and its attention to Star Wars detail is not of the slightest concern. This is a perfectly valid reason for playing the game as well.


Originally posted by Solo4114
1.) I have no problem leaving the FFA/TDM/Duel/DM style of play in a game. I think it's a good idea, if it broaden's the game's appeal. I do, however, want to have the option to ALSO play the class based style. I'd like to have the style of gameplay that I prefer implemented. I don't particularly care if they throw out the styles I don't like, but I'm not advocating that they do so. So I'm not really trying to force anyone into anything here, I'd just like to be able to play the game the way I want to play it. If others want to play it differently, that's fine, just give me the option to play it the way I like.

I think this is the key. Try to provide as many options as possible for players. Just being able to provide an option for classes would be great, as long as people could also play the way they do now.

Perhaps this could be take one step further. Suppose you wanted to set up a server. First, there would be an option for whether you wanted class restrictions or not. If no, then everyone can use everything without restriction. If yes, maybe then you could define your own classes up to a certain maximum number. If I wanted to have a jedi vs gunners server, I could specify that jedi had access to all force powers but only the saber. Then I could define the gunner as having access to all weapons but no force powers. Later, if I wanted to add a hybrid, I could define a class that had access to the saber and some of the guns, and maybe only push and pull for force powers. So when you defined a class, you could set what weapons they had access to, what force powers they could use. This would be independant of the game type. Then people could have servers with all the classes they wanted, or no classes at all. I just think the players should be able to set up the game the way they want. Anyway, that's just a thought off the top of my head.

Solo4114
03-10-2003, 06:26 PM
Prime,

Not a bad idea, but the one thing that you might want to do with that system is to limit the number of configurations available. This way you avoid the problem that has happened with the mod community in the game as it is: too many variants of gameplay. You do need a set of core rules for different gameplay types. DM is, well, DM. It's pretty straightforward, and I think that class based DM would be goofy. The reason why classes work in the games in which they're used is that the classes complement each other and are designed to be used in team play. Medics can heal, but are weak on attack; attack classes are powerful, but can't heal themselves and can't take out vehicles or resupply the team; support classes can take out vehicles, or resupply, but don't have the ability to hit hard like attack classes. You get the idea. Unless you're playing TDM, using classes in that sense would be goofy, unless you're talking about a division between gunners/saber users/hybrids. For DM servers, that kind of simple division might work (IE: ArtifeX's mod), but you'd have to make sure that the gunners' ability to use ranged weapons and such was balanced against the force users' abilities in short range and mobility.

The objective-based gameplay that I'd hope for, on the other hand, could have certain core classes broken down along the gunner/jedi division (IE: medic gunner -- can distribute bacta tanks and has long range abilities; medic jedi -- can use heal and team heal, and some other force powers; engineer -- can use the turrets and seeker drones, as well as explosives; no real equivalent here for jedi, but maybe have a class that's focused on defense -- IE: can use team energize or protect to act as a blocker of sorts. I dunno). This could get pretty complicated, but it could be done.

You'd just offer people the option to play with whatever mode they want. Now, in terms of universal changes, I'd still advocate that sabres be one or two hit kill weapons, regardless of the move. Certain moves break through defenses easier, certain moves defend at a higher level, but once you connect with the enemy, one or two hits and they're dead. THAT could be something that ALL game modes could have. It would drastically improve CTF games because you could still kill and keep moving, instead of getting into long drawn out duels.

I do think it's possible to design a game that effectively implements what the vast majority of the community wants, even if the community is divided on how they want to play the game. You do need to give the community options, and you need to not limit the way people play, but there are certain changes that I think everyone (or at least most people, regardless of whether they play "competitive" or "just for fun") could agree to.

I haven't played with the guns enough lately to remember what if anything needed fixing there, but from what I can remember, aside from ammo consumption rates, they were relatively balanced, if somewhat boring in design (rehashes of other guns from FPS games). I may have to reinstall the game, patch it up, and test some stuff out.

It is a shame that this game died the way it did. To date, I've yet to see a Star Wars FPS (that you can play MP) that REALLY does justice to the SW universe. Even JK1's MP never really did it for me.

Prime
03-10-2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114
Prime,

Not a bad idea, but the one thing that you might want to do with that system is to limit the number of configurations available. This way you avoid the problem that has happened with the mod community in the game as it is: too many variants of gameplay. You do need a set of core rules for different gameplay types. DM is, well, DM. It's pretty straightforward, and I think that class based DM would be goofy. The reason why classes work in the games in which they're used is that the classes complement each other and are designed to be used in team play. Medics can heal, but are weak on attack; attack classes are powerful, but can't heal themselves and can't take out vehicles or resupply the team; support classes can take out vehicles, or resupply, but don't have the ability to hit hard like attack classes. You get the idea. Unless you're playing TDM, using classes in that sense would be goofy, unless you're talking about a division between gunners/saber users/hybrids. For DM servers, that kind of simple division might work (IE: ArtifeX's mod), but you'd have to make sure that the gunners' ability to use ranged weapons and such was balanced against the force users' abilities in short range and mobility.

You are probably right. I didn't put much thought into it, and I'm sure there would be many problems with the system. I was just wondering if there was a way to seperate somewhat the class system from the game types. But for sure this would not work for all game types.

Originally posted by Solo4114
You'd just offer people the option to play with whatever mode they want. Now, in terms of universal changes, I'd still advocate that sabres be one or two hit kill weapons, regardless of the move. Certain moves break through defenses easier, certain moves defend at a higher level, but once you connect with the enemy, one or two hits and they're dead. THAT could be something that ALL game modes could have. It would drastically improve CTF games because you could still kill and keep moving, instead of getting into long drawn out duels.

I agree with you completely on making the saber more deadly. I always thought that a hit in heavy swing should be a one hit kill, yellow two hits, and blue three hits, or whatever. This could also be dependant on where you actually hit. For example, a hit to the head would be instant death.

Spider AL
03-10-2003, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114:

I do think it's possible to design a game that effectively implements what the vast majority of the community wants, even if the community is divided on how they want to play the game. You do need to give the community options, and you need to not limit the way people play, but there are certain changes that I think everyone (or at least most people, regardless of whether they play "competitive" or "just for fun") could agree to.Yuh think? :confused:

Seems to me that the JO community could never agree on the colour of faeces. Basically, the number of people, like myself, who try to understand the nature and tactics behind every game mode, are in the minority. This is because of the huge number of variables the game contains. Will a server be FF? NF? Guns? Sabres? JvM? What Force level? CTF? FFA? Duel? Jedi Master? Ghoul2 or not?

So servers that played the game people wanted were rare, and people became insular and blind to the other styles, just as they did before, in the days of DF2 on the zone.

This problem intensified when a big wodge of mods that very slightly changed gameplay appeared. A promod server popped up here, a jediplus or whatever popped up there, it became harder and harder to find a vanilla server. Soon of course, the patching killed the game outright.

The more variables you add to a game, the more fragmented the community will become, and the easier it'll be to knock it down. I don't think making the game into something for everyone is a good idea, or even a sane idea. You can't please all the people all the time, or even most of them. The type of manic increase in possible variables you're talking about would be just about the worst thing for the longevity of a game I can think of. No two servers would be alike, if there was a variable to cater to everyone. There'd be no standard for serious play, which gives a game a core community to build around, and since servers close regularly people would become used to one set of variables and leave the community straight away when their skills didn't translate to another server.

I'll say it again, it's up to individual people to find fun for themselves, it's not the duty of the game to provide it. The game provides an arena to have contests in, it doesn't necessarily provide fun. If you look for fun on public servers, you're probably not going to find it. It's that simple.

Mr. Mofo
03-10-2003, 09:00 PM
No matter WHAT people say, what's happened to JK2 is WAY better than what happened to Tribes. I buy the game, can't play any MP until I get the patch, get it, and what the hell everyone has infinite flight, infinite ammo, all the guns and all the guns are basically chaingun/rocketlauncher combos. Guuu!! Now I go to play more JK2, which is not dead by any means IMHO, where I shall hunt wabbits.

Spider AL
03-10-2003, 09:08 PM
Can there be degrees of dead... er... deadness? Deadosity? Mofo thinks so. :D

He's right though, Tribes players had a rough time of it.

Solo4114
03-11-2003, 08:14 AM
Prime,

I don't even mean that the stances should have differences in lethality. Heavy stance, medium stance, light stance, doesn't matter. I would, however, base it on locational damage. A head shot gets an instant kill. Anywhere else, and it takes two hits. If you hit with a special move (IE: blue lung, yellow/red DFA, backstab in any stance) it's an instant kill, but at least these moves are not much more lethal than the other normal moves you have. The main difference that I'd have between the stances is the tradeoff of defense vs. offense. Blue lets you fend off attacks easier, but it can't break through defenses. Yellow is less powerful on D, but more powerful on O, and Red is great for bashing through attacks, but sucks on D. I'd either leave the speeds of the stances the same, or speed all of 'em up a little bit, but have the heavier stances open themselves up more to being blocked and countered, as well as leaving defenses open. IE: if you try to do a red swing or combo, and it hits, it'll bash through most defenses, but while doing the swing, you're swinging wide and leaving yourself open to attack. But I'd still have the player swing faster with Red stance than they do currently. (Otherwise, red would be worthless, since you could just dodge the swing or stab the guy mid-swing.)

Blocking would be determined on more of a rock-paper-scissors method, whereby blue can block all blue and yellow attacks and maybe one or two red swings, yellow can block all blue attacks and SOME yellow attacks (maybe one or two swings), and red can block up to three blue swings, but yellow and red swings break through easily. Your ability to block attacks would also be tied to your sabre defense force power. The higher the power, the more likely you are to intercept an attack. You'd have access to all stances from the start of the game, but your sabre offense attack would allow you to chain more attacks together. So, as your offense power increases, you can do, say, up to five blue swings in a row, four yellow swings, and three red swings as combos. Something like that anyway. Your defense could also be tied to the arc in which you defend. The lower the defense, the tighter the arc is in front of you (no back defense). You could also maybe allow people to get higher levels of offense or defense (IE: level four or five) if they sacrifice the opposing force power. So, if you pick only level one offense, you'd have access to up to level four or five defense. The higher levels could let you perform defensive maneuvers that most folks can't (IE: defend an attack from behind, intercept an attack on another person). Same for offense. At higher levels, you could give people access to dual-bladed sabre styles, or dual wielding of sabres. The offsetting factor would be that you wouldn't be able to defend as well, even in terms of basic defense.

Would that I could code and do animations, or I'd be able to make a kickass mod. :)

As far as Tribes 2 goes, I never played that one. I played a bit of the original and it was pretty cool. I tried the T2 demo, and it seemed ok, but then again, I was only playing against bots really. It looked like a game with real potential, though. I especially liked the ability to laze targets for other people to shoot. (or have them laze targets for me)

Spider AL
03-11-2003, 10:47 AM
I have to say Solo, that most of your ideas are just overly contrived nonsenses. More variables does not make a game more complex, merely more fiddly, and your constant ranting about sacrificing some abilities to feed others is just going to annoy people who want to use everything the game offers. In other respects you're just juggling existing JO concepts around a bit, and calling it new. It's this sort of limited thinking that led to five-million unremarkable sabre-combat tweaking mods that merely helped to separate the community into umpteen paranoid camps.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Would that I could code and do animations, or I'd be able to make a kickass mod. :)And if wishes were fishes we'd all cast our nets. Everyone and their uncle had some sort of opinion on what would make the game "BETTAR!!11" and so few people were willing to spend the time to participate in the community in any sort of constructive way at all, instead they spent their time mashing their gums pointlessly. Fiddling while JO burned. Sad...

Prime
03-11-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Yuh think? :confused:

Seems to me that the JO community could never agree on the colour of faeces...

The more variables you add to a game, the more fragmented the community will become, and the easier it'll be to knock it down. I don't think making the game into something for everyone is a good idea, or even a sane idea. You can't please all the people all the time, or even most of them. The type of manic increase in possible variables you're talking about would be just about the worst thing for the longevity of a game I can think of. No two servers would be alike, if there was a variable to cater to everyone. There'd be no standard for serious play, which gives a game a core community to build around, and since servers close regularly people would become used to one set of variables and leave the community straight away when their skills didn't translate to another server.

I'll say it again, it's up to individual people to find fun for themselves, it's not the duty of the game to provide it. The game provides an arena to have contests in, it doesn't necessarily provide fun. If you look for fun on public servers, you're probably not going to find it. It's that simple.

I think in retrospect you are right Al. I was merely throwing out an idea off the top of my head. But I agree on the server fragmentation problem 100%. I tend to want to play on vanilla 1.04 servers, because I do not like playing when everyone is running around with double sabers kissing everyone else. 1.04 servers are now fewer and fewer in number.

Originally posted by Solo4114
I don't even mean that the stances should have differences in lethality. Heavy stance, medium stance, light stance, doesn't matter. I would, however, base it on locational damage. A head shot gets an instant kill. Anywhere else, and it takes two hits. If you hit with a special move (IE: blue lung, yellow/red DFA, backstab in any stance) it's an instant kill, but at least these moves are not much more lethal than the other normal moves you have. The main difference that I'd have between the stances is the tradeoff of defense vs. offense. Blue lets you fend off attacks easier, but it can't break through defenses. Yellow is less powerful on D, but more powerful on O, and Red is great for bashing through attacks, but sucks on D. I'd either leave the speeds of the stances the same, or speed all of 'em up a little bit, but have the heavier stances open themselves up more to being blocked and countered, as well as leaving defenses open. IE: if you try to do a red swing or combo, and it hits, it'll bash through most defenses, but while doing the swing, you're swinging wide and leaving yourself open to attack. But I'd still have the player swing faster with Red stance than they do currently. (Otherwise, red would be worthless, since you could just dodge the swing or stab the guy mid-swing.)

Apart from wanting the swings to be faster and location damage (which is a good idea, I think), from what I can tell your are wanting the saber combat to be as it is currently. I think the way damage is done now is proportionally correct. Heavy stance should and does do more damage than light stance. Heavy should be more powerful because it takes so many more force points to aquire it. This trade-off must give you an advantage, and it does.

As for special moves, I think it would be better to leave it the way it is now. The special moves do do more damage than their respective stances already. blue uppercut is quite damaging, much more so than a normal blue hit (at least double, isn't it?). Same for yellow special. And red DFA is the most deadly move in the game! Again this is how it should be, because I spent so many points to get Red stance, and thus the DFA attack. Why wouldn't I save my 14 or whatever number of points if I could instantly kill with blue uppercut? Then everyone would spam blue uppercut because no one would need to invest in red or yellow.

As for offence vs defence, some of what you are asking for is essentially describing how it is now. "IE: if you try to do a red swing or combo, and it hits, it'll bash through most defenses, but while doing the swing, you're swinging wide and leaving yourself open to attack." I believe this is currently the case. I think you are kind of contradicting yourself. You want blue to "let you fend off attacks easier", but you also want red to bash through most defences. It can't really be both.

I think that is the case of dueling (this is what we are talking about, right?), where we differ is that I believe that red should be the most powerful, because it takes more points to aquire it than blue. I need to be rewarded for this investment. But the beauty is now is that each stance is useful. Red should be able to pound through blue defence, and it does. It should also be better at blocking heavy attacks, and it is. Tapping me with light stance shouldn't break through my strong stance. But when I attack in red, I am leaving myself open to attack more than in blue. But blue can strike much more quickly than red, which can be an advantage as well in certain situations (not to mention better at blocking blaster fire). And yellow is a nice combination of the two.

IMO, the tradeoffs between saber stances is good the way it is now. A good dueler uses each to the utmost effectiveness.

Spider AL
03-11-2003, 02:20 PM
I tend to want to play on vanilla 1.04 servers, because I do not like playing when everyone is running around with double sabers kissing everyone else. 1.04 servers are now fewer and fewer in number.

This is the sad truth of the matter. As I mentioned earlier, I'd still be playing 1.04 happily, if there was a healthy community associated with it. Back in the waning days of JK1, there were still prize-tournaments on offer, with actual prizes mind you. Such things are a bit thinner on the ground for JO. It's doubly saddening because as a competitive game JO was so much more well-rounded than its predecessor.

Solo4114
03-11-2003, 07:54 PM
Prime,

Actually, I was advocating that you change the sabre stance access system. You'd get access to all sabre stances from the start, but your ability to use them to break an enemy's defenses or to defend against an enemy would depend on how many points you assigned to the respective force powers.

So, for example, a level one offense would give you access to all three stances, and when applied against a level one defense it WOULD function similarly to what you can do now. The main difference would be the lethality of the sabres (IE: every swing, regardless of stance, would be a one or two hit kill). Aside from that, the general block/attack/parry structure would remain intact. However, if a level one attacker goes up against a level two defender, the level two defender will have a much easier time blocking or parrying the level one attacker's blows. Now, if the level two defender only had level one attack, when he went on offense, the two would be evenly matched again, but as far as defense goes, the higher level would generally reign, assuming he chose the right stance for the job.

Where things would really become different would be if you wanted access to level four or five abilities on either offense or defense. In order to do that, you'd only be able to take, say, up to level 2 in the counterpart force power. But at those higher levels, you could do stuff that wasn't accessible at the lower levels. You'd be given access to new moves, new abilities, new stances, or the ability to wield different types of weapons. HOWEVER, the sabres themselves would not change; they'd still be just as lethal and just as able to kill in one or two hits. What would change is your ability to effectively employ them to perform different tasks. I do agree, though, that if you spend points on something, you should get a benefit for it. With the system I'm proposing, though, you'd get that. :)

Now, as for whether this change alone would save the game, of course it wouldn't. It'd be a nice mod for dueling, but in the end, dueling and DM style play, I think, are just boring. I'd want to have objective focused gameplay included. You could leave the DM style of play in the game, but also include the class-based/objective focused gameplay as a different game mode. Actually BF1942 does this to a degree. It offers the ability to play simple TDM, CTF, or its Conquest mode (where the objective is to take and hold territory). I don't usually see any TDM servers out there, though, and I only occasionally see CTF servers. Now, granted, I'm not looking for the TDM servers, so there may be more of 'em than I see. But from what I can tell, the objective-focused style of play is the most popular one.

Al,

You seem to have missed my point in my most recent post, prior to this one. I'm not saying keep the game exactly the same. Far from it, in fact. The changes I'm advocating for are subtle, but meaningful. They wouldn't save the game on its own, because the game already lacks in immersive quality to it, but they would make it considerably more fun in my opinion. If you disagree with it, that's cool. I honestly don't care that much. But I do feel compelled to say the following.

You're really the kind of belligerent jackass that the internet seems to breed. I've simply been making suggestions here, basically ignoring you, and being generally polite when I took the time to answer you. In response, you've seen fit to basically make personal attacks for no apparent reason. If you disagree with what I say, fine. I have no problem with someone intelligently disagreeing. I enjoy a good debate. But when you start throwing insults around, well, even if it is the internet, that's just uncalled for. You're pissed that the game died. Fine. You blame folks who complained about the gameplay for it, and likely include me in that group. Fine. You want the game to be left alone, fine. Go play against the bots. You're pissed at the world about the fact that the game changed in a way you didn't like. I can sympathize with that. I'd be pissed too, if a game changed in a way that I thought killed it's community.

But enough already. Let it go, man. You seem entirely incapable of offering any kind of constructive opinion on the debate. You simply naysay and punctuate it with insults. Next time you have something to say in response, as I said before, try it with a little less vitriol and a little more rational thought. Like I said, I've got no problems disagreeing with folks, but there's no reason (other than your own impotent frustration at the fact that the game changed, I suppose) to be a jerk in the process.

Now then, in the immortal words of Joe Pesci, "I'm done with this guy." Anyone ELSE want to maybe ADD something to the debate? :)

Spider AL
03-11-2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114:

Now, as for whether this change alone would save the game, of course it wouldn't. It'd be a nice mod for dueling, but in the end, dueling and DM style play, I think, are just boring.You're in the minority. 1on1 and DM styles of play are extremely popular in most other games, yadda yadda yadda etcetera. You get the idea. And if you don't, skip it. ;)

Originally posted by Solo4114:

You seem to have missed my point in my most recent post, prior to this one. I'm not saying keep the game exactly the same. Far from it, in fact. The changes I'm advocating for are subtle, but meaningful.I missed nothing, your "changes" aren't subtle, they're just shallow. They're not meaningful, they're basically the same conservative juggling of the existing dynamics that spawned five-gajillion minor mods that merely fragmented the JO community. I'm sure you think your ideas are just dandy, but hey, so did the makers of all those farcically insipid excuses for mods. And of course, as I mentioned earlier, everyone and their uncle has their little ideas about how to "MAEK TEH GAEM BETTARRR!!!!11"

Originally posted by Solo4114:

You're really the kind of belligerent jackass that the internet seems to breed. I've simply been making suggestions here, basically ignoring you, and being generally polite when I took the time to answer you. In response, you've seen fit to basically make personal attacks for no apparent reason. If you disagree with what I say, fine. I have no problem with someone intelligently disagreeing. I enjoy a good debate.Ah, so you want me to stop disagreeing with you, but since you can't actually SAY that without sounding even more pompous and unpleasant, you've added this little caveat about "intelligently disagreeing", so that you can accuse me of unintelligently disagreeing with you? Pfft. That's thin. :rolleyes:

You've been making suggestions, yes. I've been pointing out the many, many gaping flaws in your grand design. If you don't like that, you "go play against the bots" to use your words. Furthermore, by calling me a "belligerent jackass" you not only stoop to petty personal slurs, but imply that I want an argument too. There is no argument. There's just you making dubious statements about how great the mod you're never going to make would be, and how the developer of the next JK game should listen to YOOO, and me? Well, I'm sitting here poking holes in an already flimsy construct that hath been arrayed before mine eyes. I wouldn't call that an argument.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

But enough already. Let it go, man. You seem entirely incapable of offering any kind of constructive opinion on the debate.Well, other than pointing out that your ideas really aren't very good, there's not a lot to say. As I told you before Solo, there have been many threads about the next game, how to improve on it, yadda yadda yadda, and I've contributed to many of them, weeks and months ago. I don't need to repeat myself here, nor would I glorify this blatant rehash of an old discussion with additional fodder.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Next time you have something to say in response, as I said before, try it with a little less vitriol and a little more rational thought. Like I said, I've got no problems disagreeing with folks, but there's no reason (other than your own impotent frustration at the fact that the game changed, I suppose) to be a jerk in the process.You'd have made a good physician in the 1950s. They all thought that anyone who pointed out their errors was irrational too. LOBOTOMY!!!!11 And furthermore, your use of the word "folks" disturbs me. :eek:

As I said before, and I'm in danger of growing a string-pull out of my back I've repeated these simple ideas for you so much, I've seen all this before. This is old, old news. I saw it in the days of DF2. I've seen it over the past year with JO. I'll probably see it again in six years' time with JKIII. Instead of sitting here mashing your gums in a big wodge of futile and orgiastic self-aggrandisement, familiarise yourself with the techniques that are really necessary for supporting a game-community: Dedication, practice and understanding. Wandering around yapping about how to "improve" something you don't understand anyway is just about the most pointless occupation in the known universe.

No, actually, wandering around yapping about how to "improve" something that never had a chance to prove whether it was successful or not, that you don't understand anyway, tops it.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Now then, in the immortal words of Joe Pesci, "I'm done with this guy."You've said this sort of thing several times now, and nothing's happened... Are you sure you're waving your magic wand the right way? :confused:

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Anyone ELSE want to maybe ADD something to the debate?Oooh ooh! I've got an idea, why don't you go and read all those old threads I told you about, and PRETEND that they're replies to your thread. That should keep you busy for the next decade. :)

***

Originally posted by Solo4114:

I do agree, though, that if you spend points on something, you should get a benefit for it. With the system I'm proposing, though, you'd get that.

On a side-note, I love the way they always get up on the podium about these things too:

The scene: Daylight outside a building that looks as if it's been made entirely of glass. A press-conference is occuring on the attractively marbled fascia of the steps leading to the main entrance.

ModCo(tm) CEO: "The synergized network of thought-fact modifications that we at ModCo(tm) are proposing here today will endemically unleashify the full and ultimate potentia of all the facets of the Jedi Knight(tm) experiencialism."

Journalist: "Question; What are you going to do in layman's terms?"

ModCo(tm) CEO: "Take away gunners' sabres and force powers and then make the sabre a one-hit kill weapon."

Journalist: "Umm... won't that make a lot of gunners unhappy?"

ModCo(tm) CEO: "REEL JEDI DONT USE GUNZ U LAMOR!11!!!"

:ewok:

ILR
03-12-2003, 02:27 AM
*gets really broad and philosophical*

I'm seeing alot of people saying that gaming with a purpose is becoming more entertaining than pointless DM's. I think that's a sign that the gaming community as a whole is starting to become more mature. If this keeps up... fiften... twenty years down the road video games may be held in similar regards as movies, books, and maybe (juuuuuuuuust maybe) the fine arts.

(cept console games... DOA Xtreme Volleyball anyone? They will be children forever).

Naphtali
03-12-2003, 04:43 AM
Spider your right this has been happening for a while now, I mean these threads,

I stand true one thing though, JO feel's like other Raven games, and that the sabaer system in SP needs better collision especially for saber locks, you can swing at one angle but the saber lock is identical, to much difference between stances, not enough difference in terms of strikes, the AI for all lightsabeer opponent's are really predictable and with no innovation

ILR
03-12-2003, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by Naphtali
Spider your right this has been happening for a while now, I mean these threads,

I stand true one thing though, JO feel's like other Raven games, and that the sabaer system in SP needs better collision especially for saber locks, you can swing at one angle but the saber lock is identical, to much difference between stances, not enough difference in terms of strikes, the AI for all lightsabeer opponent's are really predictable and with no innovation

Heh.. on the contrary.. I found the AI for the saber opponents so random that it was frusterating. Also, when the AI executes a move, he'll execute the move no matter what. My favorite example is the blue uppercut attack... so far the only way to dodge that is to be running away. Best part is that the AI will just slap that puppy in whenever the hell he feels like it. You could be slashing, he could be defending... he could be slashing and you defending.. you both could be slashing... and suddenly the video will go slow mow as I watch Kyle keel over from the ending frames of the uppercut animation.

Oh and Dassan at the end is just rich. If I we're a reviewer, I would honestly publish that I inteaded to give the game a great score, but when I fought Dassan at the end I changed the score to 1.3 out of ten. You cannot fight him directly nor fight him indirectly. He has "magic instant slash" compounded infanitly. When facing him it all looks the same- straight combat until I die suddenly from the ending frames of god knows what slash. And I love how like when you get a little too far away from him he goes force crazy... lightning and chocking up the ass. And that level 3 push doesn't do jack against it, hope you pacted Bacta containers. The only easy way to beat this MF'er is to be cheap as hell. I've had more engaging duels with Reborn fodder than with him. And to put him at the end of the game, talk about a sour note to end on...

DeTRiTiC-iQ
03-12-2003, 05:34 AM
I thought i'd just say something about class-based objective multiplayer. I've seen it said (not sure if its this thread) that pure deathmatch games are so common that objective multiplayer is the way forwards.

This of course is a load of complete crap, the only deathmatch game to be released recently was ut2k3 (which sucks). Almost EVERY recent multiplayer game has been based on team objectives, the majority being based on world war 2 or something equally done-to-death.

I got JK2 wanting the kind of vanilla deathmatch with a difference, I wanted Quake 3 but with a little more in the way of vertical gameplay, I wanted UT but faster and more elegant. Now in all honesty, I think a class-based team-objective Star Wars game would be great fun, but i also want some "senseless" deathmatch too, JK2 was meant to keep me entertained until Quake 4 (assuming Raven doesn't screw this up too), instead it turned me into a bitter-twisted old fool.

So here's my thought: Someone go ahead and make JK3, give it a singleplayer experience worthy of the series, and give it vanilla JK-style multiplayer. Do it REALLY well, just cater for these two factors. Then ADDITIONALLY (notice the world ADDITIONALLY, as in NOT REPLACING) make a class-based objective based Star Wars game using whatever engine is appropriate with both a singleplayer and multieplayer element. Let people be Jedi if they want to too, but make sure its done properly.

Voila, in just 2 games, you have catered to the Star Wars paradigms.

If this is done in 2 games instead of one, you immediately get rid of any major arguments about "what the game was supposed to be", and people can get on with actually playing and having fun.

shock ~ unnamed
03-12-2003, 05:58 AM
As long as there are no more WW2 Nazi guys or dudes in ski-masks w/ sniper rifles I'm all for another class based game.

Solo4114
03-12-2003, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by ILR
*gets really broad and philosophical*

I'm seeing alot of people saying that gaming with a purpose is becoming more entertaining than pointless DM's. I think that's a sign that the gaming community as a whole is starting to become more mature. If this keeps up... fiften... twenty years down the road video games may be held in similar regards as movies, books, and maybe (juuuuuuuuust maybe) the fine arts.

(cept console games... DOA Xtreme Volleyball anyone? They will be children forever).

ILR,

You're right that a portion of the gaming community is becoming more mature (or at least getting older). Will the younger players ever be weeded out? Unlikely. There will always be a market for scantily clad, buxom chicks jumping around to, shall we say, emphasize the fact that they ARE buxom (you know what I'm talking about).

But, I think what you'll see is that, as with movies, you'll have games that cater to one audience, and games that cater to another. And the best games will be able to draw in both groups. Towards that end...

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQSo here's my thought: Someone go ahead and make JK3, give it a singleplayer experience worthy of the series, and give it vanilla JK-style multiplayer. Do it REALLY well, just cater for these two factors. Then ADDITIONALLY (notice the world ADDITIONALLY, as in NOT REPLACING) make a class-based objective based Star Wars game using whatever engine is appropriate with both a singleplayer and multieplayer element. Let people be Jedi if they want to too, but make sure its done properly.

See, I don't think you even need to make two games. Just two game modes. And I don't think that having two general options for game modes would split the community terribly. Rather, it'd be a smart marketing move because you appeal to two different camps of players. On the one hand, you appeal to folks who want he vanilla, pick-up-any-gun, kill-'em-all DM style gaming experience. And on the other hand, you can simply have another game mode where you have access to limited weapons and abilities, but you play as a team and attempt to complete objectives. There were DM mods that came out for RTCW, because people wanted to play DM style. There were class-based mods for all of the Quake games (TF, WF, etc.), usually revolving around CTF modes, because people wanted to have classes and objectives to complete as a team. To my recollection, UT introduced the first real objective style game (the Assault mode), and RTCW was the first to create a game with classes focused on objectives.

Now, DeTRiTiC, you're right. The WWII theme is getting kind of tired. It's fun, of course, but I for one wouldn't mind seeing something new. A Star Wars class-based game would be a blast, but you could also do it with other settings. When you think about it, though, the gaming industry is a LOT like the movie industry. They put out repeats of the last thing that did well. If a WWII game sells well, you can bet you'll see a bunch of crappy knock-offs come out. It'd be nice to see that particular style of gameplay shaken up a bit. Regardless, I still think you can offer different game modes in one box and cater to the community. Oh, and yes, UT2k3 sucked. :) I played the demo and almost fell off my chair yawning too hard.

Spider AL
03-12-2003, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by ILR:

Oh and Dassan at the end is just rich. If I we're a reviewer, I would honestly publish that I inteaded to give the game a great score, but when I fought Dassan at the end I changed the score to 1.3 out of ten. You cannot fight him directly nor fight him indirectly.Well, this might depend on what computer specs you have, but I didn't have a problem with Desann, and I played initially on the highest level of skill. It takes a few minutes observation, but he uses the same lunges quite a lot, and if one catches the windup one can whack him in the head while he's doing them. In the midrange, his lightning is a problem, but only if you haven't jumped into the special beam that protects you from Dark Side damage. Desann likes to try to jump into that too. :) Besides, there's always the pillars+sabre throw method of dispatching him, which I never could bring myself to use. Nor the speed + heavy stance method. Well, maybe once. :D

Shock and Det: Well sure. Let them play their class-based game somewhere over there. JK is sacred as a genre though.

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed:

As long as there are no more WW2 Nazi guys or dudes in ski-masks w/ sniper rifles I'm all for another class based game.

Ever noticed that if you slap a Germanic helmet on someone it makes them a villain and hence okay to kill them? Stormtrooper helmets have Germanic overtones. Obviously the nazis in Indy had plenty of such headgear. Interesting... Maybe ski-masks are the new Germanic helmets? :eek:

Originally posted by Solo4114:

See, I don't think you even need to make two games. Just two game modes. And I don't think that having two general options for game modes would split the community terribly.It should be obvious even to you that another game mode would create at least one more division in the community. Then, what about force configuration? You'd have NF class-based players and FF class-based players, sabres only class-based players, guns class-based players etcetera etcetera ad infinitum. It's a terrible idea, live with that, and go back to the drawing board. ;)

ILR
03-12-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Well, this might depend on what computer specs you have, but I didn't have a problem with Desann, and I played initially on the highest level of skill. It takes a few minutes observation, but he uses the same lunges quite a lot, and if one catches the windup one can whack him in the head while he's doing them. In the midrange, his lightning is a problem, but only if you haven't jumped into the special beam that protects you from Dark Side damage. Desann likes to try to jump into that too. :) Besides, there's always the pillars+sabre throw method of dispatching him, which I never could bring myself to use. Nor the speed + heavy stance method. Well, maybe once. :D


Its not a technical issue, at least I don't think. I've played Single Player on Jedi Master mode countless times from start to finish, and I've never caught on to any pattern with the dark Jedi. It never even occured to me that there WAS a pattern in the first place... I didn't focus on that. The only kind of lightsaber duels I know are the ones in the movie... where they always blocked and parried their way through their opponent's defense. Considering that the saber isn't exactly the heaviest mofo to whip around, it made sense to try and knock their saber down before going for the kill. I was so confused when playing JKII because sabers are treated like swords with mass (It will only have power when it is in motion... and the sword slashes cannot be stopped midswing to correct course due to its momentum). So the key to winning is duppin your enemy to slash where he thought you were going to be, and then slash while his blade is turned away. The Star Wars freak has a morol code about lightsaber duels... be true to the duels, no matter what!

ILR
03-12-2003, 05:56 PM
About the several game modes in one thing..

I only played Duels, never touched the CTF or DM stuff *shrugs*. And I know quite a few who are the opposite. This is the biggest split in a gaming community I have ever experienced. 1.04 came out I was still in the duel servers, so it was like a godsend to me. However I hear people bitch and bitch about **** I've never concerned myself with! I felt very alienated when I tried to defense 1.04... With this game ya can't avoid one or two splits in the community, but ya should avoid the obvious extra ones..

Why worry about NF lovers verses Force lovers? Why not make Force not so ****ing retarded so that everyone can enjoy it and people will see the "disable force" button and simply wonder why it was even there....

Why is lightning a Jedi Ability? We saw the Emp do it once. Dooku did it to noobish Anikin, but Ben dispatched it easily. If you have to have your god damn lightning ability in a JEDI KNIGHT game, make it so Jedi's with level 3 defense can do what Ben did in ep2.

And where the **** did Absorb come from? And drain? WTF is that ****? Why is it in a Star Wars game? Shouldn't that be in a Bulder's Gate sequal or something? Force Healing is really stretching it too...

And saber throw! GOD!!!!!!!! Vader ****in tosses his saber up at the catwalk to get Luke down ONCE... ****ING ONCE. He may not have even guided it with the force.. he may have just tossed it a good one to get Luke down. The result: JKII Saber throw. Put that mouse 2 button to better use and GIVE US A DEFENSE COMMAND!!!

And what is the deal with Force choke?! Again.. we see vader choke NORMAL PEOPLE with the force... yet you catch a Jedi off gaurd and you choke him, lift him up, swirl him around in circles so he can't push you away, and all this while doing tons of lovely damage. IF Goerge Lucas was dead he would be spinning in his grave. Since he's not he's prolly just trying to remember why Lucas Arts was started in the first place.

THATS why there's a descrepency between NF and FF

Spider AL
03-12-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by ILR:

I've played Single Player on Jedi Master mode countless times from start to finish, and I've never caught on to any pattern with the dark Jedi. It never even occured to me that there WAS a pattern in the first place... I didn't focus on that.

Well, dere you go. There's always a pattern with opponents. Human, AI, vegetable, mineral, there's always a pattern. The key to winning is to understand that pattern.

Originally posted by ILR:

Why worry about NF lovers verses Force lovers? Why not make Force not so ****ing retarded so that everyone can enjoy it and people will see the "disable force" button and simply wonder why it was even there....

Well besides the massive amount of swearing and exclamation marks in your post, you have an interesting point. Personally though, I don't think the force is "****ing retarded"; I think people who play NF FFA or CTF might be a little silly though. And frankly comparing the films to the game is a waste of time. Making a game exactly like the films would probably only be interesting to the fanboys or die-hard RPGers.

Originally posted by ILR:

IF Goerge Lucas was dead he would be spinning in his grave.Lucas doesn't care about keeping the Star Wars movies sane, let alone cool, judging by the prequels. Don't think he'd care too much whether a game was exactly the way the OT was. :)

Solo4114
03-12-2003, 08:38 PM
For duels, 1.04 helped somewhat. Though the blocking could've been more logically based and not so random. As far as why bother including the various force powers you mentioned, they've been in the game for a while so that alone would piss people off if they were removed. Plus, people see them in the movies, hear about a game coming out where you can play as a jedi or a dark jedi, and they want to emulate whatever they see on the screen. I don't have a problem including the various force powers, but I think that, after a while, they did end up becoming kind of useless. I know that when I dueled, I ALWAYS set Absorb to level three, if only because it was the only way to counter darkside force powers. People who set lightning to 3 or grip to 3 were able to beat the hell out of you if you didn't assign force powers to absorb.

All in all, I thought that the force powers were reasonably implemented, though when everyone had things set to level 3, it got so that the powers were basically useless. You really DID have to settle things with a sabre if you had absorb at 3 and the other guy had lightning at 3. Again, though, that only highlighted the flaws in sabre combat. You're right that the sabres were treated as having mass when they should be able to move at roughly the same speed all the time. That goes to my point about making all swings equally lethal, but making the type of swing and speed or force of your blow (light, medium, or heavy) deal more with battering through defenses, or keeping your defenses up.

Krayt Tion
03-12-2003, 09:28 PM
Wow, there have just about been some FLPs in this thread. :)

Everyone has their own subjective standards by which they've judged the game and decided whether to continue playing or participating in its community. Whether I agree with them or not, that's fine by me.

I find it is both fair and appropriate to compare the quality of my JO experience to that of other game experiences when determining my level of satisfaction. For a game in a series, the preceding games of that series serve as an additional benchmark is this regard.

1) Did I enjoy JO more than most games I've played?

Yes. This means the game got its fair share of play time, plus community time, the duration of which was primarily determined by the following:

2) Did I enjoy JO as much as or more than Dark Forces I and II?

Definitely Not.

Single player was plagued by stunted level progression, poorly implemented and executed puzzles, and an anti-climactic ending, all of which registered noticably with me.

For multiplayer, Raven heavily tweaked kinds of experiences similar to those I've already had via Jedi Knight. I was ready for something fresh from the core, not old with new trimmings. They failed to innovate enough to satisfy this tired JKer beyond a relatively short period.

What would have made me buy the farm?

Class-based objective multiplayer (good acronym needed) is my cup of tea, my soup du jour, the apple of my eye as far as what can still be considered the FPS genre is concerned. This mode of play is superior to others only because that is it what I enjoy the most when playing with guns in the first person.

I can't see why this would be a problem to someone else, save that numerous invested parties (used to be part of one) with different preferences were all hoping the game catered to them. A Star Wars FPS is, after all, a huge pooling of official resources likely to produce something only once every few years. It's a valuable commodity if you're into that sort of thing.

So that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

shock ~ unnamed
03-13-2003, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Solo4114
For duels, 1.04 helped somewhat. Though the blocking could've been more logically based and not so random. As far as why bother including the various force powers you mentioned, they've been in the game for a while so that alone would piss people off if they were removed. Plus, people see them in the movies, hear about a game coming out where you can play as a jedi or a dark jedi, and they want to emulate whatever they see on the screen. I don't have a problem including the various force powers, but I think that, after a while, they did end up becoming kind of useless. I know that when I dueled, I ALWAYS set Absorb to level three, if only because it was the only way to counter darkside force powers. People who set lightning to 3 or grip to 3 were able to beat the hell out of you if you didn't assign force powers to absorb.

All in all, I thought that the force powers were reasonably implemented, though when everyone had things set to level 3, it got so that the powers were basically useless. You really DID have to settle things with a sabre if you had absorb at 3 and the other guy had lightning at 3. Again, though, that only highlighted the flaws in sabre combat. You're right that the sabres were treated as having mass when they should be able to move at roughly the same speed all the time. That goes to my point about making all swings equally lethal, but making the type of swing and speed or force of your blow (light, medium, or heavy) deal more with battering through defenses, or keeping your defenses up.


I'm not sure where you did most of your 1.04 Force dueling but statement could not be more off if you tried man.

1.04 Force dueling is ALL about Force based combat and maybe 1% saber swings.

99% of the top ranked FF duelers throughout all of 1.04 didn't even use sabers in FF dueling other than as a follow up swing after a kick knockdown.

And there has never been an "elite" light side FF dueler throughout all of 1.04 on any ladder or league.

Light side at any level is completely and utterly worthless in 1.04 dueling.

I zap you with a short blast of lightning.
You reflexively flip on absorb.
I simply pull+throw the hell out of you (absorb makes doing that very easy).

You try a heal you waste 1/2 of your pool for a measly 25 hp.

All I have to do is drain whore you and kick you to death and the match is over.


In 1.04 FF dueling this is how it goes in terms of what is best:

Drain (it is simply too damn easy to reverse 80 hp of damage by whoring it on a person with poor evasive skills)

Kick (level 2 jump)

Pull

Saber throw/Grip

I put the last two on about the same level because they are more of a "part" of devastating combos rather than the actual attack itself.

A properly done grip+kick can take a 100hp person down to 0 in one shot.

Two back to back throw+pull+kick combos will finish off a 100 hp person as well if done properly.

Spider AL
03-13-2003, 10:40 AM
shock ~ unnamed: Exactly, the sides of the Force aren't balanced in any of the game modes as far as I'm aware. The closest they come to being balanced is in FF guns CTF, but even then... Now, MotS was good, as "sides" had no meaning in its Force selection. All powers were available to all... Nifty.

I really don't know where Solo's getting his ideas though. Certainly not from Jedi Outcast... Maybe he's confused and is playing Bubble Bobble instead. ;)

Originally posted by Krayt Tion:

I can't see why this would be a problem to someone else,Because, Krayt old bean, the Dark Forces series has always been made up of pure FPShooters. Would one go to the Quake community and say "I think the next game should be a flight sim"? Class-based-objective games are completely different to a vanilla FPS. There's both a tradition to uphold and a dedicated and long-standing community to honour.

The only reason so many people want this game to be something different next time is because it's a Star Wars game and all Star Wars fans feel that they have a right to demand whatever they want from it. (Note: I'm not lumping you in with them, merely pointing out that there's a lot of them.) But I don't think Star Wars fans should count, frankly. The game's the important thing, not the genre/franchise on which it's based. Now, sure, you like class-based games at the moment, and DM probably seems old to you. But how will you feel about objective-based games in four years time? Who knows. Meanwhile, the tradition of the Dark Forces series should be observed, because it's always been truly classic.

Most games are punched out of sheets of plastic these days. Fast food games. Who wants another McCounterstrike or another McUnreal Tournament? The unique flavour of Dark Forces must be preserved.

Solo4114
03-13-2003, 10:48 AM
Shock,

It's not so much WHERE I did my dueling as much as it is WHEN I did my dueling. For the most part, I didn't play competitively, so I probably wasn't going up against people who were all that good. I also didn't play for very long after 1.04 came out. I'd stopped playing when 1.03 came out, due to the inability to avoid people spamming the backstab, and only came back briefly when 1.04 was first out. I played some duels and some FFA, and maybe one or two CTF games. I think I lasted MAYBE a month with 1.04 before I quit the game altogether and uninstalled it. I'd imagine that a lot of the techniques you're talking about came into play on competitive or ladder servers and were being used a while after I'd quit.

If what you're saying is true, though, then that REALLY sucks. I mean, I'm all for using force powers in a duel, but what you're describing is ridiculous. Call me crazy, but I think duels should be mostly about the sabre, and only have force come in occasionally. Even so, while duels are cool, they still boil down to DM style play, which for me, even with a well balanced force system, and even with well executed sabre combat, would grow tiresome. That was actually the reason I quit 1.04. It wasn't so much flaws in the patch (though it DID take forever to kill people with sabres), as much as it was that the style of play just really bored me.

I'm with Krayt here. I'd much rather play CBOM (how's that for an acronym? :) ) than screw around with DM. I know folks want to play DM, though, so more power to 'em. That's why I'd say include your basic DM mode in any sequel. There's a contingent that really wants to play it, so fine, let 'em play it. Me, I'd rather play CBOM. And yea, Krayt, I too was hoping for something new and fresh from JO. The single player was fun overall, though the end DID leave something to be desired (You shake your head at Desann and that's it???). I did like the fact that you could have AI buddies tagging along, like Luke in that one level. I get tired of the "You against the universe" style of play, and like to play as a team. That's probably why I'm drawn towards CBOM style games. Anyway, I'd hope for the next game that, while they keep some aspects of the underlying series intact, they try to freshen things up a bit. The same old formula is getting boring.

As for the same old stogy style of play being some sort of sacred cow, I say innovate a little. There's no reason why you can't have a nice change of pace in the series AND still keep the old style of play, though some seem to believe that any change will instantly spell the death of the game. I think sticking to the same old worn-out style of play, without ever bothering to innovate will lead to the stagnation of the game, and while a small, fervently loyal, intensely conservative (in terms of changes to gameplay, mind you, not politically) group may support it, the majority of people out there will grow tired of it quickly, and will drop it as soon as the next shiny game comes out.

If the next game has nothing but DM styles and CTF, I know I won't buy it, even though I'm a Star Wars fan. It's not because the game is Star Wars that I'd want CBOM. It's because DM style of play bores the crap out of me and the DF series has NEVER had good CTF gameplay. I never bought Q3 or Counterstrike because they basically boiled down to DM, which bores me. I got into UT, but only ever played CTF because the other modes (aside from Assault, I suppose) bored me. I love the Aliens and Predator movies, but I never bought AVP2 because the first game just boiled down to variations on DM style play, and I figured the second one would too. The underlying license isn't the issue, it's the gameplay found within that will convince me to spend my money.

Spider AL
03-13-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Solo4114:

I know folks want to play DM, though, so more power to 'em. That's why I'd say include your basic DM mode in any sequel. There's a contingent that really wants to play it, so fine, let 'em play it.Once again your magnanimousness is choking. Your "generous suggestion" would merely fragment the community further than it already is, damaging it. I presume you want to do that, otherwise you'd be lobbying for a separate game by now.

/me shudders

Ugh-h-h-h. Folks.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

The same old formula is getting boring.Gosh, and there was little old me thinking that it was interesting enough to keep Dark Forces 2 alive for at least five years without dev support. :D

Originally posted by Solo4114:

I think sticking to the same old worn-out style of play, without ever bothering to innovate will lead to the stagnation of the game, and while a small, fervently loyal, intensely conservative (in terms of changes to gameplay, mind you, not politically) group may support it, the majority of people out there will grow tired of it quickly, and will drop it as soon as the next shiny game comes out.The "majority of people" or at least a vocal majority managed to ruin JO. So who cares what they think, feel or do. A small "fervently loyal" following kept JK alive for years and preserved the competitive game with tournaments and prizes. It preserved the game for those that truly enjoyed it. That's what's important, not the "fun" of the fickle fanboy masses.

Prime
03-13-2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Solo4114
All in all, I thought that the force powers were reasonably implemented, though when everyone had things set to level 3, it got so that the powers were basically useless. You really DID have to settle things with a sabre if you had absorb at 3 and the other guy had lightning at 3.
"Obviously, this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the force. Only with the our skills with a lightsaber." -Dooku :)

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
I zap you with a short blast of lightning. You reflexively flip on absorb. I simply pull+throw the hell out of you (absorb makes doing that very easy).
I understand that many people play purely for competative reasons, and their only goal is to win. But do people have any fun doing the above? I mean, it just seems so boring to me. If that is what you feel the game comes down to, is it really worth playing? Sure, you get some wins, but you just spent a few hours of your life pressing two keys on a keyboard repeatedly. Ahh, good times! :) Does anyone besides me play this game just for fun? :p Since I fulfill my competative cravings with basketball, I just play this game for the Star Wars related aspects. To each his own, I guess.

Originally posted by Spider Al
The only reason so many people want this game to be something different next time is because it's a Star Wars game and all Star Wars fans feel that they have a right to demand whatever they want from it. But I don't think Star Wars fans should count, frankly. The game's the important thing, not the genre/franchise on which it's based.
I don't think that is entirely fair. I agree completely that SW fans, or anyone for that matter, don't have the right to demand whatever they want. But I don't think that the fans don't count at all. I mean, like it or not, this is a Star Wars game, so at least it should be reasonably faithful to that genre. Financially speaking, SW fans (which I am one), are a good portion of the customers for this game, and for Raven/Lucasarts to completely disregard them would be foolish. That being said, I agree with you that the gameplay should take priority, since really that is where the fun and longevity will be derived. Also, I agree that since this game is a Dark Forces game, it needs to follow the standards set by that series (refering to the whole jedi with guns debate). The funny thing is, I feel that this game and the Dark Forces series in general is very close to the standards set in the movies. I have no problems with Jedi and guns, and so on. I feel Raven has made a game that is very respectful to the Star Wars universe. I also feel that have made a game that is fun to play. Just my take. Al, hopefully you will not group me in with all the other Star Wars "fanboys". :)

Spider AL
03-13-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Prime:

I understand that many people play purely for competative reasons, and their only goal is to win. But do people have any fun doing the above? I mean, it just seems so boring to me. If that is what you feel the game comes down to, is it really worth playing? Sure, you get some wins, but you just spent a few hours of your life pressing two keys on a keyboard repeatedly. Ahh, good times! Does anyone besides me play this game just for fun?This is an important question, and one worthy of a seriously thought out answer:

If one first decides to pursue victory, it is because one enjoys winning. Over the course of one's training, winning becomes a different type of fun, a fun that's worth the time and effort one puts into the game. It's a buzz when you win a tournament, or overcome a difficult opponent. It's not about what powers or guns you use, as every game at some stage turns into a one-gun match. (railgun in Quake, Flechette in JO, specific force powers etc) It's about who uses them the best. And after a while, you start to use the other guns and powers to surprise your skilled opponent. You jump out of the shadows and whack him with your sabre. You shoot him from a mile away with your tenloss. You knock him from a ledge with your DEMP. And those are the kills you come to cherish the most.

So you could say, if you practice enough, you go THROUGH the stages of using one weapon or few weapons, and come out on the other side. You go through the period where winning is your only fun, and finally come out on the other side to appreciate the whole game in a way you never could have done before.

It's rewarding. It's also the same with every game, computerised or not, in my experience.

Originally posted by Prime:

I don't think that is entirely fair. I agree completely that SW fans, or anyone for that matter, don't have the right to demand whatever they want. But I don't think that the fans don't count at all. I mean, like it or not, this is a Star Wars game, so at least it should be reasonably faithful to that genre. I understand where you're coming from, and I used to say the same thing. But after 1.03, no longer. I used to look on obsessed Star Wars fanboys as cute and helpless, until I saw what destruction their ignorance wrought. :D Now I have no time for them.

Btw, I AM a Star Wars fan. But I can see the game for its own merits, separate from the franchise and its foibles. If something in the game works well but is different from the films, I love it. I have no problem with it. It's only those fanboys that cannot make that distinction and have no desire to learn to, that I despise.

Originally posted by Prime:

Just my take. Al, hopefully you will not group me in with all the other Star Wars "fanboys".Of course not. Though many people have different takes on what defines a fanboy, my criteria are crystal clear, as espoused in the "JO bashing" thread. You don't quite fit them so far. ;)

Zodiac
03-13-2003, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by ILR

And saber throw! GOD!!!!!!!! Vader ****in tosses his saber up at the catwalk to get Luke down ONCE... ****ING ONCE. He may not have even guided it with the force.. he may have just tossed it a good one to get Luke down. The result: JKII Saber throw. Put that mouse 2 button to better use and GIVE US A DEFENSE COMMAND!!!


In Kathy Tyers' "The Truce at Bakura", Luke uses saber throw to get rid of several opponents in a room. Very handy if you ask me. If I'd have The Force, I'd be throwing my saber all the time.

But I agree with you on one thing: I didn't really like saber throw in JKO either. :p

Mr. Mofo
03-13-2003, 12:07 PM
I don't what the problem is with saber throw. I mean, it can't hurt you if you keep your saber in a non-attacking stance, or you're not using a force power. So what, you want to be able to attack and not take any damage in the process? I find it a usefull tool, I like to throw the ol saber at people who foolishly wave their saber around while chasing me. Anymore, my biggest/only problem with the game is the absorb/flechette gun combo. If you could still take their gun it would be fine, methinks. Might make it unbalance something else though. Thoughts?

DeTRiTiC-iQ
03-13-2003, 12:41 PM
I generally take the view that a sequel (in gaming) should be an evolved and improved version of the original. To make a sequel for JK2 into a CBOM game wouldn't be evolution, it would be starting from scratch. I'm all for a Star Wars Team/Squad Objective game, it would make for some fun singleplayer too, but the Dark Forces series should keep to its roots.

shock ~ unnamed
03-13-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Prime
I understand that many people play purely for competative reasons, and their only goal is to win. But do people have any fun doing the above? I mean, it just seems so boring to me. If that is what you feel the game comes down to, is it really worth playing? Sure, you get some wins, but you just spent a few hours of your life pressing two keys on a keyboard repeatedly. Ahh, good times! :) Does anyone besides me play this game just for fun? :p Since I fulfill my competative cravings with basketball, I just play this game for the Star Wars related aspects. To each his own, I guess.

Of course.
I have a total blast playing JK2 Instagib CTF.
Am I good at it?
No not really but I still have fun.


I stuck with FF dueling over FFA/mass player mods because of the thought and strategy that had to go into taking out a single aware and alert opponent.

There would be no mass crowd kills or sloppy random DFA kills.

As I started learning the finer points of dueling I really did have a great time watching my skill level develop and progress.

The challenge is what was fun for me.

Why do people play puzzle games like Tetris?
There is no story so how could they be any fun?

The reason is because it is fun to face a challenge and overcome it.

It’s not about “owning people” it’s simply about overcoming an obstacle or challenge.
At first the challenge was learning the game and combos, now it is beating other skilled players.

I’m not saying it’s not fun to just screw around in maps, I do it.
But competition has always been and will always be present in online gaming so it’s kind of hard to avoid.

Prime
03-13-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
As I started learning the finer points of dueling I really did have a great time watching my skill level develop and progress.

The challenge is what was fun for me.

Why do people play puzzle games like Tetris?
There is no story so how could they be any fun?

The reason is because it is fun to face a challenge and overcome it.

It?s not about ?owning people? it?s simply about overcoming an obstacle or challenge.
At first the challenge was learning the game and combos, now it is beating other skilled players.

I?m not saying it?s not fun to just screw around in maps, I do it.
But competition has always been and will always be present in online gaming so it?s kind of hard to avoid.

I completely understand. It is one of the things that made JO so fun for me. This is the first game that I played online with people I didn't know. I got this game 100% for the SP game, and never gave much thought to the MP aspects. I just gave it a try for the hell of it. I figured that I would get destroyed. But I guess since the game was brand new to everyone at that point, I did okay. That sort of got me thinking that I could improve. Like you describe, this was very fun and challenging. I normally play FFA and Duels, and I can usually end up at the top end of the scores list. Like you say, getting better and seeing improvement was a source of great enjoyment.

I understand the competative enjoyment that people get from this game. Hell, I enjoy beating someone, and I do try and win when I play. But when I play I usually do so in a manner I feel the game was intended, i.e. using different moves and countermoves. The point I was trying to make was if the game to someone comes down to just pull/throwing all the time, is winning that way really fun to them? I guess for me it would take away some of the enjoyment of the win. I enjoy a win much more when I defended one attack in a good way and had a well placed counter attack, and so on. If I just pull/threw for the umpteenth time and won because once again there was nothing the opponent could do, that just doesn't seem appealing. But everyone is different.

Originally posted by Spider Al
So you could say, if you practice enough, you go THROUGH the stages of using one weapon or few weapons, and come out on the other side. You go through the period where winning is your only fun, and finally come out on the other side to appreciate the whole game in a way you never could have done before.

Very interesting. I hadn't thought about that before. Meditate on this, I will.

Originally posted by Spider Al
Btw, I AM a Star Wars fan. But I can see the game for its own merits, separate from the franchise and its foibles. If something in the game works well but is different from the films, I love it. I have no problem with it. It's only those fanboys that cannot make that distinction and have no desire to learn to, that I despise.

I agree. I bought this game because it was Star Wars. I am still playing this game a year later because it is a great game. I would enjoy this game if it wasn't Star Wars. I also have no problems with were it seperates from the genre, firstly because I think it still captures the feel and important elements of Star Wars, and secondly because I feel the changes lead to a better game.

shock ~ unnamed
03-13-2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Prime I understand the competative enjoyment that people get from this game. Hell, I enjoy beating someone, and I do try and win when I play. But when I play I usually do so in a manner I feel the game was intended, i.e. using different moves and countermoves. The point I was trying to make was if the game to someone comes down to just pull/throwing all the time, is winning that way really fun to them? I guess for me it would take away some of the enjoyment of the win. I enjoy a win much more when I defended one attack in a good way and had a well placed counter attack, and so on. If I just pull/threw for the umpteenth time and won because once again there was nothing the opponent could do, that just doesn't seem appealing. But everyone is different.

I see what you are saying but I'm not sure if you accurately got that pull-throw example the way I intended it (my bad).

The pull-throw is by no means a "super" move you can spam over and over on it's own for quick wins.
Let alone is it something I would ever really rely on as my primary offense.
The only reason I threw it in there was because of the absorb comment he made.
It was simply a way of me showing “he does X, I counter with Y”.

Absorb users when pulled will not slide but they will go into the "hand out" animation.
Hence an absorb user is a much easier target for pull throwing than a dark sider.

That has really been my gripe since day one with a lot of people who posted and complained here.
There never really has been a "super move" that could not be countered in any version.
The DFA of 1.02 was not a big deal.
The back stab of 1.03 was not either.
Kicks and pull-throws are not a big deal.

All people had to do was learn the counters and those moves being "spammed" was not a concern anymore.

But the problem is they didn't want to learn, they just wanted a quick fix (patch) to make up for their shortcomings.

ILR
03-13-2003, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
I'm not sure where you did most of your 1.04 Force dueling but statement could not be more off if you tried man.

1.04 Force dueling is ALL about Force based combat and maybe 1% saber swings.

99% of the top ranked FF duelers throughout all of 1.04 didn't even use sabers in FF dueling other than as a follow up swing after a kick knockdown.

And there has never been an "elite" light side FF dueler throughout all of 1.04 on any ladder or league.

Light side at any level is completely and utterly worthless in 1.04 dueling.

I zap you with a short blast of lightning.
You reflexively flip on absorb.
I simply pull+throw the hell out of you (absorb makes doing that very easy).

You try a heal you waste 1/2 of your pool for a measly 25 hp.

All I have to do is drain whore you and kick you to death and the match is over.


In 1.04 FF dueling this is how it goes in terms of what is best:

Drain (it is simply too damn easy to reverse 80 hp of damage by whoring it on a person with poor evasive skills)

Kick (level 2 jump)

Pull

Saber throw/Grip

I put the last two on about the same level because they are more of a "part" of devastating combos rather than the actual attack itself.

A properly done grip+kick can take a 100hp person down to 0 in one shot.

Two back to back throw+pull+kick combos will finish off a 100 hp person as well if done properly.

Sorry man, you have the wrong forum... and I didn't know that Lord of the Rings game had wizard duels *srhrugs*


... OH WAIT!! YOUR TALKING ABOUT JK!!!!!!!!!!

MY BAD! When I read that nice description of strategy the last thing I thought you were talking about was Star Wars. But no really.. its my mistake, I mean Star Wars: Jedi Knight II shouldn't really be like Star Wars. If I wanted Star Wars in my Star Wars game, I'd go play a different Star Wars game! But honestly speaking, who here really wants Star Wars in their Star Wars games? Ha! Whatta joke :P

shock ~ unnamed
03-13-2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by ILR
Sorry man, you have the wrong forum... and I didn't know that Lord of the Rings game had wizard duels *srhrugs*


... OH WAIT!! YOUR TALKING ABOUT JK!!!!!!!!!!

MY BAD! When I read that nice description of strategy the last thing I thought you were talking about was Star Wars. But no really.. its my mistake, I mean Star Wars: Jedi Knight II shouldn't really be like Star Wars. If I wanted Star Wars in my Star Wars game, I'd go play a different Star Wars game! But honestly speaking, who here really wants Star Wars in their Star Wars games? Ha! Whatta joke :P

Well since every fan boy likes to reference the movies let's do so now.


ESB-Vader gets tired of screwing around w/ Luke and uses the Force to chunk his ass out a window.

RotJ-Emperor does not even carry around a fruity little saber.
He just zaps the hell out of Luke and totally "pwns" his saber RPG ass.


I don't see sabers lifting ships out of swamps.
I don't see sabers bringing down roofs and pillars on top of people.

Force > sabers in movies.
Force > than sabers in game.

In FF dueling it is a test of Force based combos and knowledge of the defenses.
Hence the name Full Force Duel.
You are dueling with Force.

Duel does not automatically mean saber, I know that is hard for a lot of fan boys to grasp but a duel can be w/ sabers, powers or even guns.


Duel means two people fighting against one another.

Duel does not mean we have to use sabers because everything else is gay.

Luc Solar
03-14-2003, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
RotJ-Emperor does not even carry around a fruity little saber.
He just zaps the hell out of Luke and totally "pwns" his saber RPG ass.

LMAO!! ... Luke...saber RPG ass.. True, so true.

Mr. Mofo
03-14-2003, 11:32 AM
I still don't see what this pull/throw combo is, splain more plz.

Anyway, who's to say Palpatine never carried around a lightsaber? Could have kept it under his robes, and he never really had a need to whip it out.

Luc Solar
03-14-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Mofo
I still don't see what this pull/throw combo is, splain more plz.


If you throw your saber at someone and pull just before the saber hits, the pulled opponent goes into the "pull-counter-animation" even though absorb is on.
The automatic animation blocking the pull lowers your defences and the thrown saber hits you every time.

There is really not much you can do about that(?)...other than evade the thrown saber.

Some people say it's cheap, but...whatever.

Spider AL
03-14-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Mofo:

Anyway, who's to say Palpatine never carried around a lightsaber? Could have kept it under his robes, and he never really had a need to whip it out.That's enough of that kind of suggestive smut! This is a family forum! :p

And I support everything shock ~ unnamed says that is or could be construed as being anti-fanboy.

Luc Solar
03-14-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
And I support everything shock ~ unnamed says that is or could be construed as being anti-fanboy.

... doesn't that make you and anti-fanboy-fanboy? :confused: ;)

Spider AL
03-14-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Luc Solar:

... doesn't that make you and anti-fanboy-fanboy? :confused: ;)Logically, technically, factually and morally yes,..

But no. :D

ILR
03-14-2003, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
Well since every fan boy likes to reference the movies let's do so now.


ESB-Vader gets tired of screwing around w/ Luke and uses the Force to chunk his ass out a window.

RotJ-Emperor does not even carry around a fruity little saber.
He just zaps the hell out of Luke and totally "pwns" his saber RPG ass.


I don't see sabers lifting ships out of swamps.
I don't see sabers bringing down roofs and pillars on top of people.

Force > sabers in movies.
Force > than sabers in game.

In FF dueling it is a test of Force based combos and knowledge of the defenses.
Hence the name Full Force Duel.
You are dueling with Force.

Duel does not automatically mean saber, I know that is hard for a lot of fan boys to grasp but a duel can be w/ sabers, powers or even guns.


Duel means two people fighting against one another.

Duel does not mean we have to use sabers because everything else is gay.

-_-; for god's sake I know what the dictionary definition of a duel is...

And I don't think force should be should be eliminated from duels by all means, but you've got to be smacked up on something to think what your described a few posts ago solid SW action. I'm not saying its a bad game, nor am I saying it doesn't take talent or that there isn't strategy involved. I'm saying that it's not Star Wars. I'm fine with things not being Star Wars. I'm not really that much of a fan boy. I scarcly play SW games. I don't have a single piece of SW merchandise in my house. But when I do get around to playing a SW game, its cool when it actually resembles the movies more than just by graphics.

Yes Vader pwned Luke's ass with force, but Vader was a master and Luke a total n00b. In JKII SP when you faced n00b reborn all it takes is one push and a slash most of the time. When you faced the shadow troops later on force tricks didn't work as well (But they still did work..)

Yado can lift an X-wing out of a swamp, but for some reason he doesn't pull Dooku's arms off. And why not? Well.. the answer isn't really givin (maybe George thought the action scene was more dramatic like that). Dooku and Yado even agreed that their duel cannot be won with the force, but rather their l337 lightsaber skillz (sorry, I couldn't resist :P).

We need the force in a duel, of course. Because its the force that turns the lightsaber into a deadly weapon and not just a uber exacto knife.

shock ~ unnamed
03-14-2003, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by ILR
And I don't think force should be should be eliminated from duels by all means, but you've got to be smacked up on something to think what your described a few posts ago solid SW action.

JK2 is a video games loosely based in SW universe.
Much like the novels that have been put out for several years now.

The authors/developers are given the creative freedom to do things you never saw in the movies.

Hence another reminder this is not in any way related to the previous or current films.

JK2 is a game.
It will not play like a movie because it never was one to begin with.

Hence yet another validation of what people like myself have been saying.

You people are not mad because it is a bad game, you’re mad because it is not like the movies.
Until people can learn to separate the movies from the games they will never be able to enjoy the games for what they are.

Break_dF
03-14-2003, 11:50 PM
I don't think ppl understand the obstacle that "true" saber combat is... Think of it in a dev's perspective. It is impossible to match any type of actual "saber dueling" via a mouse and keyboard. Come up with an ingenious way of scripting some random neo-gen and mail it to Raven. With the implementation of auto-blocking, the game completely stepped away from any "true" movie-style combat. Blocking IS saber combat. Trust me, I fence, I know. In-game sword play is much more complex than most "fanbois" think... I'm guessing it'll take atleast 5 years before any type of "true" saber combat is found in an online game. It's just too damned difficult to get around...

Prime
03-15-2003, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by ILR

Yado can lift an X-wing out of a swamp, but for some reason he doesn't pull Dooku's arms off. And why not? Well.. the answer isn't really givin (maybe George thought the action scene was more dramatic like that).

Actually, George did tell us why Yoda didn't pull Dooku's arms off. From Empire, "Use the force for knowledge and defence, never for attack." Probably safe to assume that pulling someone's arm out constitutes an attack :)

Originally posted by Break_dF

With the implementation of auto-blocking, the game completely stepped away from any "true" movie-style combat. Blocking IS saber combat.

I don't think auto-blocking is a drastic deviation from "true" movie-style combat, or more generally, that JO deviates greatly from the movies. There is strong evidence that the force guides a jedi's actions, instead of the jedi making consious moves. From A New Hope:

BEN: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
LUKE: You mean it controls your actions?
BEN: Partially. But it also obeys your commands.

and

BEN: This time, let go your conscious self and act on instinct.

I think the auto-blocking, besides being a gameplay decision, represents the jedi's instintive reflexes when using his saber, both for defending against a saber strike and blaster bolts. The Jedi not so much says, "here comes a blaster bolt, so I need to place my saber blade right...here." He allows the force to control his actions to place the saber blade where it needs to be. Real movie auto-blocking :)

Every argument I've seen about how JO is such an abomination against the movies has already been disproven by various people with evidence from the movies. Spider Al and I have been a part of several of these debates elsewhere, usually involving Jedi with guns...

Break_dF
03-15-2003, 01:28 AM
Yeah ok... continue being a tool.

Naphtali
03-15-2003, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by ILR
Heh.. on the contrary.. I found the AI for the saber opponents so random that it was frusterating. Also, when the AI executes a move, he'll execute the move no matter what. My favorite example is the blue uppercut attack... so far the only way to dodge that is to be running away. Best part is that the AI will just slap that puppy in whenever the hell he feels like it. You could be slashing, he could be defending... he could be slashing and you defending.. you both could be slashing... and suddenly the video will go slow mow as I watch Kyle keel over from the ending frames of the uppercut animation.

Oh and Dassan at the end is just rich. If I we're a reviewer, I would honestly publish that I inteaded to give the game a great score, but when I fought Dassan at the end I changed the score to 1.3 out of ten. You cannot fight him directly nor fight him indirectly. He has "magic instant slash" compounded infanitly. When facing him it all looks the same- straight combat until I die suddenly from the ending frames of god knows what slash. And I love how like when you get a little too far away from him he goes force crazy... lightning and chocking up the ass. And that level 3 push doesn't do jack against it, hope you pacted Bacta containers. The only easy way to beat this MF'er is to be cheap as hell. I've had more engaging duels with Reborn fodder than with him. And to put him at the end of the game, talk about a sour note to end on...

Maybe for me it's differen't because All i do is a horizontal slash moving away from the lunge then their head is gone bcause of that.
I didn't like the flips, the slashes they used leaving them wide open, and like i said when i played in slowmotion i notice the failings of the collision system even more. Plus the points weren't even if you wan't to parry someone use red stance overhead swing knocked their own saber and yours into them .

I agree, Desann was ridiculous, you can't duel him or out forcehim and most of the time you can't push hhim out of his grip. IF the saber system were more challanging, and not ridiculous acrobatic swings where are not needed for certain characters removed, then it would be btter to me

Prime
03-15-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Break_dF
Yeah ok... continue being a tool.

I was just saying I don't think it is as much of a deviation from the movies as people think, and to put those fanboys at ease. But hey, if you want to just flame me instead of saying why you disagree, by all means :rolleyes:

And the auto-blocking was developed because of the desire to make saber combat as simple as possible. From the developer chat November 20, 2001:

CreedoG: How complex will saber dueling be? Will there actually be skill, or only mouse/keyboard smashing?

Jedi Outcast: Our goal is to make the controls simple, but make the animations complex and exciting.

Jedi Outcast: The player is able to control the saber based on the player movement.

And being in the software business, there is nothing inherently more difficult about saber defense. If they wanted, they could have just as easily created a defensive system that uses input from the player. But that would require more of a learning curve to learn, and that was not the goal of the developers. Hell, I haven't tried it, but Promod already relies more on player input to some extent I think.

Break_dF
03-15-2003, 11:42 AM
Fencing is as true as it gets...

And yes, you deserved to be called a tool.

Prime
03-15-2003, 12:01 PM
Sorry Saber Superstar, edited my post above while you were flaming...

I see. I thought saber combat was more of a slashing/cutting style of swordplay, where as fencing relied on thrusts.

And do you make saber noises when you fence? :D

Spider AL
03-15-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF:

Yeah ok... continue being a tool.Heh heh, grow up Break. I actually agree with you in that I think autoblocking is feeble, but if you can't articulate better than this, you're no better than a fanboy.

Originally posted by Break_dF:

Fencing is as true as it gets... Of couuuurse... because you use the FORCE in fencing, don't youuu... :rolleyes: I'm sorry, but trying to equate your stabbing art with the sabre combat in a Star Wars computer game is just as futile as trying to reproduce the movies in game format.

Originally posted by Naphtali:

I agree, Desann was ridiculous, you can't duel him or out forcehimWell, I did it. And on Jedi Master skill. If I can do it, you can do it. Anyone can do it.

Or am I too elite? :D

Prime
03-15-2003, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
I actually agree with you in that I think autoblocking is feeble

I also agree that auto-blocking might not have been the best way to go as far as gameplay is concerned. I understand why the decision was made, though.

I beat Desann with dueling as well. I was only on the Jedi skill level though :p

Break_dF
03-15-2003, 01:06 PM
Sorry... I'm sick of arguing w/ ppl that think they know everything about game engines/mechanics. If you know so much, apply for a job at Raven. Until then, stfu. I'm the one that needs to grow up? You're the one equating true sword play to a starwars movie...

Prime
03-15-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF
Sorry... I'm sick of arguing w/ ppl that think they know everything about game engines/mechanics. If you know so much, apply for a job at Raven. Until then, stfu. I'm the one that needs to grow up? You're the one equating true sword play to a starwars movie...

He was not equating true sword play to a Star Wars movie. In fact, he was stating the opposite. He was stating that fencing has very little relation to game lightsaber fighting, and gave good reasons why. If there is to be a connection made between movie saber fighting and real world swordplay, I think it is supposed to be closer to Kendo.

Do I know everything about engines/mechanics? Certainly not. Some things? Yes. Have I written video games? Yes. Do I write software for a living? Yes. So I at least have an incling of what might be involved. I also posted something from Raven on why they used auto-blocking, and it wasn't totally because it is difficult. However, I won't tell you to STFU, since I recognize that you are entitled to speak your mind, and frankly I just try not to be that childish. And I don't need to apply to Raven, I already have a great paying software job :)

And really, I would have prefered that you had replied with the above originally. If you had asked what I might know on the subject instead of just calling me a tool, then at least you would have asked a legitimate question.

But I digress. I really have no interest in getting into name-calling with you Break_dF. So I will cease to do so. Truce? :)

Break_dF
03-15-2003, 02:36 PM
Christ, you guys just don't get it...

I tried to make a point, not drag myself into some random sw rpg discussion. JK3 will NOT be like the movies and it will NOT be anywhere close to "true saber combat." Get over it or, again, apply for a job at Raven.

Prime
03-15-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF
Christ, you guys just don't get it...

I tried to make a point, not drag myself into some random sw rpg discussion. JK3 will NOT be like the movies and it will NOT be anywhere close to "true saber combat." Get over it or, again, apply for a job at Raven.

For crying out loud. Who here is saying JO is just like the movies or real world swordplay? I and others seem to be agreeing with you. And where is there SW rpg discussion? :confused:

My point was that a defensive system in JO that was more complex than auto-blocking is certainly possible from an implementation standpoint. I was not trying to say that you could create a game that would very accurately represent lightsaber and real-life combat. I agree with you on that.

Spider AL
03-15-2003, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF:

Christ, you guys just don't get it...No Break, you don't get it. What are you doing here, trying to make a point? A point? How is calling people "tools" making a point? How is it mature? How is it intelligent? Are you just a troll, looking for a fight? Try to read people's posts properly in future before mouthing off with such intellectual masterpieces as "U R A TOOL" or "STFU". You have NO idea. None.

Kengo
03-15-2003, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by ImmolatedYoda
yes, TFC is dead yet there are constantly what, 400+ servers running it? and im one of those 1000s of players populating those servers :D .

People in the TFC community were saying it was dying shortly after I started playing it...over 2 years ago now. It just...won't...die! As some other people have said, it is rare for an FPS game to have a large community base after say 2 years, but it does happen occasionally.

What with my rubbish connection I don't play much MP anyway, Promod has been the only mp mod that really appealed to me. It brought saber vs gunner balance back a lot, and as some others have said, CTF became guns only in the 1.04 patch. And if your game is gonna be guns only...the guns need to be a bit more varied and generally fun than most in JK2. There aren't that many to start with, and easy to think of a few no one ever uses....

As an SP mapper I'm mostly interested in the SP side of things, and although it definately started slow, I really think it is picking up, along with some of the obvious stand-out levels on the way like Party Crasher, there are more and more good levels getting started, more and more people moving to SP mapping (including LivingDeadJedi :)). These are projects that actually look like they have a good chance of getting finished...and within a decent time scale too!

The SP community is a bit harder to guage, you can't look at servers or whatever, I guess the best way is downloads for SP maps. I think an SP playing community may prove to be more long lasting than an MP one as you don't need to repeatedly play SP to keep in practise, you can just go back to it whenever. SP doesn't have to compete with other online games either, its in a section on its own.

Although the code for SP wasn't released, I really don't think anyone can complain - it doesn't seem to make sense from a business point of view, and as someone already pointed out, Raven have given people in the editing community a lot of help and released the MP code, which is a lot more than some software houses do. Wheras the MP game has in some way suffered from a mass of mods, which have split the online playing community into smaller fragments, SP doesn't have the same problem with no SP mods altering the nature of the code itself. Although being able to alter the code would be nice, it is a luxury, you can edit a huge amount without it.

I have a feeling (I kinda hope they do too) that the next JK game will be an expansion focussing on the SP element, much like MOTS was for JK2. It will give SP editors more creative tools, hopefully rejuvinate the SP community a fair bit, and won't stop the MP mods for JK2 that already exist from working, and split the online community further.

I hate the word community, and I've used it...what...20 times? And yes, I was bored...interesting thread though :)

Break_dF
03-15-2003, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
No Break, you don't get it. What are you doing here, trying to make a point? A point? How is calling people "tools" making a point? How is it mature? How is it intelligent? Are you just a troll, looking for a fight? Try to read people's posts properly in future before mouthing off with such intellectual masterpieces as "U R A TOOL" or "STFU". You have NO idea. None.

What's that?...

/cry

ILR
03-15-2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
JK2 is a video games loosely based in SW universe.
Much like the novels that have been put out for several years now.

The authors/developers are given the creative freedom to do things you never saw in the movies.

Hence another reminder this is not in any way related to the previous or current films.

JK2 is a game.
It will not play like a movie because it never was one to begin with.

Hence yet another validation of what people like myself have been saying.

You people are not mad because it is a bad game, you’re mad because it is not like the movies.
Until people can learn to separate the movies from the games they will never be able to enjoy the games for what they are.

"you poeple"? Don't generelize. You've slapped down some assumptions about me that I have never stated in any previous post at this entire forum. In this post you've said that the movies and games are different. Yes.. its been said. The problem is you don't say why this is a good thing.

... And no, "It will not play like a movie because it never was one to begin with" doesn't cut it. That's like saying "You can't grow up to be a scientist, because your not a scientist"... and the poor kid who dreams of being a scientist now goes and drinks bleach.

Okay okay.. JKII is released and patched up the ass. He's grown up, went through high school, smoked a bit too much pot and didn't cut it as a scientist. JKII MP can NEVER be like the movies at this point. But.. *points to title of thread* somebody wanted to know why the game died. IMHO it was because of the extreme force powers.. and because of their extreme nature they were too difficult to balance for the raven team.

If force powers are kept the same the game would thrive. But somehow I believe that when the powers become balanced, we would end up with something that's much less "kinda sorta SW" and more "SW". While I don't know who "those people" are who irritate you so much, they probably want the same thing we all want: balanced MP. They just think their road is better, as we think the same of our own.

shock ~ unnamed
03-15-2003, 11:23 PM
Sorry, my "you people" comment was not necessarily directed at you but just a broad generalization.
I apologize if it seemed to be directed at you; it was not (nor are any of the comments below).

I have stuck with this game for almost a year now (damn has it been out that long?) and I have never seen a bigger group of whiny crybabies in an online gaming community than what I have witnessed in JK2.

JK2 players demanded these patches, they got them, and then they complained the patches that they cried for destroyed the game...

Raven didn't make the saber useless to sell more copies.
It was not a marketing decision.

It was in direct response to all the bitching, pissing and moaning people were doing on these forums and via e-mail.

Every one of those patches was put out to shut people up and give them what they were crying for.

People bitched about the DFA/Drain/Grip/Back stab/one hit heavy kills it all got neutered like everyone thought it should be.

Go back and dig though some threads from 6 months ago.

Damn near every single new topic was:

"THIS <whatever> HAS COMPLETLEY DESTROYED THE GAME AND MUST BE STOPPED!!!!!"

Why are people still bitching, you got what you wanted, your infinite wisdom and the things you cried for should have made the game better right?

People who didn't know a damn thing about first person shooters, but were so damn vocal and adamant in expressing their infinite wisdom about what was wrong with everything (in their opinion) brought these stupid patches.

And now they sit here and wonder why people got sick of the game.
It was because of what the "community" was doing to it.

These "RPG saber off = peace BUT BUT IT'S NOT LIKE THAT IN TEH MOVIE IT'S NOT RIGHT FIX IT FIX IT MAKE LUKE HAVE TEH POWERS LIKE TEH MOVIE!!!!!" type of people make playing this *game very unpleasant for people who are just out to blow stuff up and kill people in a FPS.

But wait, my bad this could never be an action game or a FPS.

It just *has to be a role playing experience and we have to set rules and honor codes and be real Jedi and bow and show honor to Darth Chewbacca and kill the lamers who swing sabers in a 32 man FFA instead of /amsitting and blah blah...




One of the very first posts I ever made on these forums was:

“Hi I’m new grippers are killing me a lot any tips on countering it?”


Yeah, I actually had a problem with a move/attack/power and I ASKED FOR ADVICE ON HOW TO COUNTER IT.

Wow, don’t see that a lot in the JK2 community do you?

Of course not, just post something like:

“OMFG GRIP IS SO GAY IT IS DESTROYING THE GAME IT MUST BE PATCHED!”

Then get a few hundred similar minded fools to chime in and agree and bingo, you’ve got a patch!

Break_dF
03-16-2003, 12:52 AM
lmao... IRL's 27th post of infinite wisdom...

Jolts
03-16-2003, 01:29 AM
like I said in another post....

a few things that turned me off of JO MP.

the rpging crack heads. I hate them, I hate them all. Thank the dear lord god above for swg, I hope in consumes all sw rpgers forever, I hope its sucks them in so fast and hard they never look at another sw game again. Being realistic it won't, they will always spread out and get their stinky rpging hands in every sw game that comes out. It is the curse of sw.

The community forums being down 70% of the time right after the games release I'm sure also didn't help much for average person. I know its hard to run a site like this and its not free, but it still hurt the game.

But the general thing that killed the game for me was it just wasn't all that fun for more than a week or 2.

razorace
03-16-2003, 09:12 AM
Well, you can spend you time whining about JK2 or you spend it working on improving it.

The following is a simple demo of the .01 version of my ghoul2 based blade collision system for MP. Unfortunately, the demo recording doesn't seem to record True View data (without the .pk3 at least) so you're stuck with thirdperson for now. Hopefully, this will work on vanilla JK2 setups. Please tell me if it doesn't.

ProtoGhoul2 Blades Demo (http://personal.palouse.net/razorace/protoghoul2saber.dm_16)

Cool, eh?

Prime
03-16-2003, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by Kengo

As an SP mapper I'm mostly interested in the SP side of things, and although it definately started slow, I really think it is picking up, along with some of the obvious stand-out levels on the way like Party Crasher, there are more and more good levels getting started, more and more people moving to SP mapping (including LivingDeadJedi :)). These are projects that actually look like they have a good chance of getting finished...and within a decent time scale too!

The SP community is a bit harder to guage, you can't look at servers or whatever, I guess the best way is downloads for SP maps. I think an SP playing community may prove to be more long lasting than an MP one as you don't need to repeatedly play SP to keep in practise, you can just go back to it whenever. SP doesn't have to compete with other online games either, its in a section on its own.

Although the code for SP wasn't released, I really don't think anyone can complain - it doesn't seem to make sense from a business point of view, and as someone already pointed out, Raven have given people in the editing community a lot of help and released the MP code, which is a lot more than some software houses do. Wheras the MP game has in some way suffered from a mass of mods, which have split the online playing community into smaller fragments, SP doesn't have the same problem with no SP mods altering the nature of the code itself. Although being able to alter the code would be nice, it is a luxury, you can edit a huge amount without it.


I agree that the SP side of things seems to be picking up a bit. There have been and will be some fun SP maps. This has always been my favorite part of the game, and I've never been a big MP person. I just played Nar Shaddaa Once Again and it was great. There is a new Bespin one coming out that looks like it should be cool as well.

You are right that the SP community is harder to know, but I get the impression that it is pretty big, perhaps even bigger than the MP one now. Although not really a way to guage the size, but I got more emails asking how to convert my MP skins to SP than anything else. There are lots of those kinds of questions around the boards here as well. A lot of people are still operating with a 56K modem.

I never understood why people complained so much about the SP source code not being released. The modeling and mapping tools were released, which is plenty to make great addons for SP. Really, the majority of mods for MP are skins, models, and maps.

The funny thing is, it seems to me that if you really want your editing work played/used, you should do it for SP. I just play on public servers, and I know I and others are "frustrated" that many of these are pure, so you couldn't use any custom skins/models and only the default maps are played. So unless a moder is making a Vader skin or something, it is probably not going to get widespread use. With SP on the other hand, perhaps mods can get a wider audience.

Solo4114
03-16-2003, 10:31 AM
Jolts,

Why wasn't the game that much fun for you after 2 weeks or so?

ILR,

I think you're right that there are ways in which the force powers and sabre combat (and the guns, for that matter) could have been implemented to make the game more "SW" than it is now.

Is the game fun, in and of itself, as an FPS? Sure, for a little while, but then it loses its lustre and seems not all that much different from other FPS games out there.

What distinguishes this game is not the gaming modes, but rather the SW content. Without that, this would just be another Q3/UT type game with the same sort of ho-hum weaponry you usually see. So, when the SW content doesn't live up to what folks hoped for, whatever that may be, you've got a problem, as you pointed out.

Now, assuming we don't add in any new game modes (that would be heresy, naturally :rolleyes: -- see other posts in the thread for more on this), what could've been done to the game as it is, to make it more SW, in your opinion? I'm not challenging you, just curious as to what would have made the game more SW? How would you have tweaked/changed the force powers, guns, sabre combat, etc?

ILR
03-16-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by razorace
Well, you can spend you time whining about JK2 or you spend it working on improving it.

The following is a simple demo of the .01 version of my ghoul2 based blade collision system for MP. Unfortunately, the demo recording doesn't seem to record True View data (without the .pk3 at least) so you're stuck with thirdperson for now. Hopefully, this will work on vanilla JK2 setups. Please tell me if it doesn't.

ProtoGhoul2 Blades Demo (http://personal.palouse.net/razorace/protoghoul2saber.dm_16)

Cool, eh?



I uh.. -_- couldn't get the demo to play. I just slap it in the base file and look it up in the demo option in MP right?

Spider AL
03-16-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114:

Is the game fun, in and of itself, as an FPS? Sure, for a little while, but then it loses its lustre and seems not all that much different from other FPS games out there. Once again you missed out the all-important "in my opinion". It's high time that games were left alone to mature and develop without constant interference from sub-community-pandering patches. If a game grows boring for certain people, those people should find another game. If a game bores me, I don't run around trying to turn it into another game in order that it might interest me more, I leave it. I find another game that DOES interest me.

Trying to change a game into a completely different animal because you don't enjoy it, will only ruin it for those that DO enjoy it. Once that simple fact is grasped by all fanboys in every game community, the world will be safe from fanboyitis once more.

Originally posted by razorace:

Well, you can spend you time whining about JK2 or you spend it working on improving it.Well put, razorace. All those whingeing about so-called "improvements" to the game should put their money where their mouth is, learn to edit, and make a mod.

Originally posted by Break_dF:

lmao... IRL's 27th post of infinite wisdom...rotflmaoloool!!111 Another of Break's oh-so constructive snide remarks. Joy to the world. I don't agree with ILR, but at least if I wish to express it I'll have the maturity to make some logical arguments against his ideas instead of just sneering like a fanboy. :p

ILR
03-16-2003, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF
lmao... IRL's 27th post of infinite wisdom...

And this will be my 30th. I fail to see how my newness to this board corrilates with my prior knowledge of the game. Seeing as how prior knowledge (by f'n definition) would not corrilate with what's going on now.

razorace
03-16-2003, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by ILR
I uh.. -_- couldn't get the demo to play. I just slap it in the base file and look it up in the demo option in MP right?

You gotta put it in the base/demos directory, fire up JK2, open the console and type in demo demonamehere.

Break_dF
03-16-2003, 07:06 PM
Basically, Spider, IRL, you have to understand 2 things:

1: I know more about this (game) than you two idiots combined.

2: If you're offended by no. 1 then you completely missed out on my other posts.

ILR
03-16-2003, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by razorace
You gotta put it in the base/demos directory, fire up JK2, open the console and type in demo demonamehere.

that is pretty sweet man. Hope you can take it to it's full extent.

Jolts
03-16-2003, 09:03 PM
solo: There wasn't anything there I havn't already played. It was an updated version of jk1 with some improved lightsaber moves, but besides that it was pretty stale for me. I didn't like any of the guns, they were generic and unstar wars themed to me. The levels were bland and not very interesting to fight in for me to play in. I just didn't like it.

As for editing, everything i would want to add to the game would take a complete rebuild of it. I would rather do that with a newer different game engine like ut2k3 or for single player u2 or wait for some other engine.

I use maya so for modeling/animation I'm out of luck with JO.

Spider AL
03-16-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF:

1: I know more about this (game) than you two idiots combined.Ohh is that right son? Well good for you! If the community has a player who's won more major tournaments than I have, played more games than I have, made more kills than I have, set more records than I have, discovered more techniques than I have, beaten more notable opponents in more game modes than I have...

someone who played Dark Forces 2 and MotS for years, winning money in prize tournaments, someone who was closely involved in the editing community of those games, producing maps, skins and entries for the Massassi level competitions, writing reviews for other fan-made levels for that site...

Someone who's dilligently researched the limits of the capabilities of the engines of all the Dark Forces series since his entry into that community, someone who trained for up to ten hours daily, unceasingly and relentlessly to become as good as he possibly could at both games, amassing a formidable record of results in the process...

Well, if the community has another player who's done all that and more, it's a really really good thing for the community, and I am thankful for it! If that player is you though, it's a shame that he's so arrogant, insulting and feeble-minded on the side.

Besides, the only great knowledge you've demonstrated here is your great knowledge of how to sling sad and petty little monosyllabic insults around, insults worthy of a true fanboy. :rolleyes: Oh, I forgot, you fence too. Good for you, stabb0r! Because fencing is a truly well-rounded fighting art, with many modern applications, and close relations to lightsabre fighting styles as depicted in the canon, as we all know. :p

Now that we've gotten all that out of the way, Breaky, you listen real close: Your logical arguments are non-existent, you fail to back up any of your wild slurs with fact, and even when you're contradicting people like ILR, people that I disagree with strongly, you do it in such a childish and insulting manner that you sicken even me, I who have been famous in the DF community since 1998 for my uncompromising debating style. Now my advice to you is to grow up forthwith. It's good advice. An intelligent person would take it. :D

razorace
03-16-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by ILR
that is pretty sweet man. Hope you can take it to it's full extent.
To the EXTREME, BABY! TO THE EXTREME!

Tosh_UK
03-17-2003, 06:57 AM
Go back and dig though some threads from 6 months ago.

Damn near every single new topic was:

"THIS <whatever> HAS COMPLETLEY DESTROYED THE GAME AND MUST BE STOPPED!!!!!"

This is so true.

What i tend to see in the game is when you killed some one, you have done one of the following..... pull push hore, kick monkey, (in united coursent (sp?) this server has Back slash as in 1.03 nice pull backslash newb) or rocket freak yaddda yaaddaa unless they kill you and they never Die, they are not happy. or they like the sabber fight to last 2 hours lol. or the one that makes me Roll on the floor, is when you get the rage runners in a CtF game and get upset when you grip them, then say your a grip monkey hahahahaha

if i join a game i.e a full force with guns map, if i get killed by some one pull/push or blown up or kicked of a ledge, its ok with me, as if i did not want that to happen to me, i should of not joined a full force with guns map.

its not long ago that i posted about Kick is destoying the game. well i was wrong. first i thought it was a lot of bind key users, but i have only just upgraded to a better system, and found that it was a laggy PC that was cause of being owned. second is instead of getting angry try learn to be good at what move they are using on you, and try find a way of counter attack/avoid the move to. and now what do i do if some one is running at me to kick... well if i am next to a ledge, I find that a simple duck can help, or try time a roll to go under them.


btw mindtrick is gay and should be nerfed as i cant be botherd to use seeing...... j/k :p

Solo4114
03-17-2003, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Jolts
[B]solo: There wasn't anything there I havn't already played. It was an updated version of jk1 with some improved lightsaber moves, but besides that it was pretty stale for me. I didn't like any of the guns, they were generic and unstar wars themed to me. The levels were bland and not very interesting to fight in for me to play in. I just didn't like it.[B]

Yeah, see, those were some of my problems with the game. That's why it didn't have any real longevity for me. You've got shiny graphics and an improved sabre system (from Jedi Knight I, that is), but it just got stale for me after a while. There was nothing really all that innovative about the game, and the CTF maps that shipped with the game were never all that good. The guns definitely seemed more UT/Q3 than SW to me. I don't know why the secondary fire on the repeater turned into the big plasma ball thing, when it used to be the three shot spread. I guess they wanted to include some grenade launcher type weapon, a la Q3. The flechette cannon basically was the UT flak gun, but everyone's pointed that out already.

I'm still curious about what kind of edits you'd make, though. It sounds like they'd be pretty sweeping, so I'm rather curious to find out what they might be. If you don't feel like typing it out here in the thread, PM me or something.

Spider AL
03-17-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Solo4114:

Yeah, see, those were some of my problems with the game. That's why it didn't have any real longevity for me. You've got shiny graphics and an improved sabre system (from Jedi Knight I, that is), but it just got stale for me after a while. Shame for you. I however, enjoyed it right up until I stopped playing because I couldn't find a decent game. I also played Jedi Knight right up until JO came out. Gawd, I love Dark Forces games. They're leet, and require no changes to the format. :D

Originally posted by Solo4114:

The guns definitely seemed more UT/Q3 than SW to me. I don't know why the secondary fire on the repeater turned into the big plasma ball thing, when it used to be the three shot spread. I guess they wanted to include some grenade launcher type weapon, a la Q3.Well Solo, anyone who's played JK1 will remember the Concussion Rifle aka "conky" which was used by Trandoshan bounty hunters from errm.. I think it was level 9 onwards. The secondary fire on the "Heavy Repeater" from JO was a "concussion explosive," according to the official site. Can't have a JK game without a conky. :)

Prime
03-17-2003, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Once again you missed out the all-important "in my opinion". It's high time that games were left alone to mature and develop without constant interference from sub-community-pandering patches. If a game grows boring for certain people, those people should find another game. If a game bores me, I don't run around trying to turn it into another game in order that it might interest me more, I leave it. I find another game that DOES interest me.

Trying to change a game into a completely different animal because you don't enjoy it, will only ruin it for those that DO enjoy it. Once that simple fact is grasped by all fanboys in every game community, the world will be safe from fanboyitis once more.
This really sums it up for me. I have loved this game from the very beginning, both MP and SP. Frankly there was little that I wanted changed, apart from the obvious bugs (DFA collision box and so on). I didn't really like the fact that each patch changed the game so drastically, firstly because I had to learn a new way to play, and secondly because I thought the game was good to begin with and didn't need sweeping changes. Personally, I think Raven knew that they made a good game, both from the reviews and boards, and should have let it find it's audience on its own. If it was a bad game, no amount of patches is going to make it a good game. Ignore people who whine when you know it makes no sense for the game. I never understood why people took the time to come here and demand sweeping changes about a game they didn't like and didn't play.


Originally posted by Spider AL
rotflmaoloool!!111 Another of Break's oh-so constructive snide remarks. Joy to the world. I don't agree with ILR, but at least if I wish to express it I'll have the maturity to make some logical arguments against his ideas instead of just sneering like a fanboy. :p
I was going to comment on this also, but after all the back and forth we had, I felt it just wasn't worth the effort.

Originally posted by ILR
And this will be my 30th. I fail to see how my newness to this board corrilates with my prior knowledge of the game. Seeing as how prior knowledge (by f'n definition) would not corrilate with what's going on now.
It doesn't. You have shown more class and knowledge than Break has shown after 500+. Even if people don't agree with you, at least you are willing to debate with counterpoints, and that deserves respect.

Originally posted by Break_dF
Basically, Spider, IRL, you have to understand 2 things:

1: I know more about this (game) than you two idiots combined.

2: If you're offended by no. 1 then you completely missed out on my other posts.
Whether (1) is true or not, we'll never know. When you do decide to post arguments, they don't always seem to make much sense, and the rest of the time you are just calling people names. You haven't posted anything that seems to show any sort of deep knowledge about the game.

As for (2), what the hell does that mean? If they were in fact "offended" by you knowing more, that would mean they wouldn't have missed out on your other posts, because they would have had to read them to see your "superior intelect". You seem to have no idea what you are talking about. The point is mute though, since these guys probably just disregard your posts now anyway...

And the number of posts indicates nothing about a person's knowledge about this game. Just because ILR has about 30 or so posts at his point says nothing about his knowledge compared to yours. This much is obvious when you post things like:

Yeah ok... continue being a tool.
andlmao... IRL's 27th post of infinite wisdom...
When you post crap like this, you come across as a teenager that either is a geeky nerd with an inferiority complex and has to verbally attack people on the internet to compensate or a troll. Since I don't know you, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and consider you the later.

In either case, it sure is easy to call people names when sitting safely behind your keyboard in your parents basement, isn't it?

ILR
03-17-2003, 03:00 PM
one more thing.. its ILR... If I had a dollar every time someone said IRL.. I'd have thirteen dollars.

razorace
03-17-2003, 04:02 PM
^^^

:D

Break_dF
03-17-2003, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by ILR
one more thing.. its ILR... If I had a dollar every time someone said IRL.. I'd have thirteen dollars.

That's what you get for creating a stupid name.

Spuder AL: Wow u r smart. DF community cash money wowow. I wish I were as gud as u. No, wait.. you're a joke. Read some of my past posts then comment on how much I've innovated. While you mindless drones where screaming "FF is CHEAP," and wailing your limp sabers around, I was actually helping the community. If you play 1.04 FF and *if you're any good what-so-ever (which I highly doubt), then you can thank me for helping you w/ your *leet moves. I make snide remarks because you're a "tool." Oh, and yeah, I fence. There's a life outside of hentai and sw forums. Now go buy an idiot's guide to on-line gaming and stfu before you say something you can't back up.

Break_dF
03-17-2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Prime
This really sums it up for me. I have loved this game from the very beginning, both MP and SP. Frankly there was little that I wanted changed, apart from the obvious bugs (DFA collision box and so on). I didn't really like the fact that each patch changed the game so drastically, firstly because I had to learn a new way to play, and secondly because I thought the game was good to begin with and didn't need sweeping changes. Personally, I think Raven knew that they made a good game, both from the reviews and boards, and should have let it find it's audience on its own. If it was a bad game, no amount of patches is going to make it a good game. Ignore people who whine when you know it makes no sense for the game. I never understood why people took the time to come here and demand sweeping changes about a game they didn't like and didn't play.



I was going to comment on this also, but after all the back and forth we had, I felt it just wasn't worth the effort.


It doesn't. You have shown more class and knowledge than Break has shown after 500+. Even if people don't agree with you, at least you are willing to debate with counterpoints, and that deserves respect.


Whether (1) is true or not, we'll never know. When you do decide to post arguments, they don't always seem to make much sense, and the rest of the time you are just calling people names. You haven't posted anything that seems to show any sort of deep knowledge about the game.

As for (2), what the hell does that mean? If they were in fact "offended" by you knowing more, that would mean they wouldn't have missed out on your other posts, because they would have had to read them to see your "superior intelect". You seem to have no idea what you are talking about. The point is mute though, since these guys probably just disregard your posts now anyway...

And the number of posts indicates nothing about a person's knowledge about this game. Just because ILR has about 30 or so posts at his point says nothing about his knowledge compared to yours. This much is obvious when you post things like:


and
When you post crap like this, you come across as a teenager that either is a geeky nerd with an inferiority complex and has to verbally attack people on the internet to compensate or a troll. Since I don't know you, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and consider you the later.

In either case, it sure is easy to call people names when sitting safely behind your keyboard in your parents basement, isn't it?

Ask yourself: "Does this guy really give a damn about myself and the rest of the rpg dregs that post on lucasforums?"

Answer: I take 3 showers a day just to conceal the constant, embittered rain of tear drops after reading these forums.

Spider AL
03-17-2003, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF:

That's what you get for creating a stupid name.I wouldn't accuse other people of having stupid names if I'd picked something as tedious as "Break" as my moniker. :D

Originally posted by Break_dF:

Spuder AL: Wow u r smart. DF community cash money wowow. I wish I were as gud as u. Well son, you're not. Get used to it.

Originally posted by Break_dF:

No, wait.. you're a joke. Read some of my past posts then comment on how much I've innovated. While you mindless drones where screaming "FF is CHEAP," and wailing your limp sabers around, I was actually helping the community. If you play 1.04 FF and *if you're any good what-so-ever (which I highly doubt), then you can thank me for helping you w/ your *leet moves.Wow, Spider AL's really in trouble now! He's facing an opponent whose incredible IQ is only matched... by the number of teeth in his head! :rolleyes:

FYI, my little fanboy-lite, I was winning Full Force matches when you were in DF diapers. I won both JO FF sabres tournaments run by major European providers, namely Jolt and Wireplay. By august 2002 I amassed a 97% victory percentage in Full Force games both guns and sabres including those games I joined half-way through and those games I played in my first week of JO. I played over a thousand Full Force matches in the space of four months. I killed over thirty-five thousand people in public Full Force FFA alone, in the same space of time. On april 7th 2002, just over one week after I first played JO, I fought a total of forty-eight Full Force guns matches, won 48, lost none and made 960 kills in total. My personal best long-term-FFA score in public was 142 kills in 20 minutes against eight opponents, using Absorb combos, at just over seven kills a minute. Note: I pioneered all one-hit-kill moves in my circles, and even discovered a few during 1.02 that were never adopted by the rest of the gaming community. I retired in the last quarter of 2002 due to my inability to find a populated European server, only rivalled in Full Force FFA by the members of my own clan whom I trained.

In addition to my many Full-Force achievements, I was also pretty good at my least favourite style: NF sabres. I won matches against almost all the major European players, with the notable exception of 4J.Inferno, whom I lost to on a tie-breaker in the semis of the Blueyonder NF sabs tournament, he went on to win the title easily. With the exception of Inferno, whom I only ever found to fight that once, I defeated all the major players in the best Euro duelling clans, such as 4J and eF. I had a 95% win percentage in duel matches, including those I joined halfway through and those I played in my first week online.

CTF? Sure, I enjoyed success at CTF. Hard to tell how much, as I never took part in that mode competitively, but I suppose I had a certain talent at flag capping, which some players may confirm if one can persuade them. ;)

So chew on it for a while sonny boy. As noted previously, I was successful at Jedi Knight too. And Quake before it. You're nothing to me. Sorry to break it to you. Heh te-heh... :)

Originally posted by Break_dF:

I make snide remarks because you're a "tool."Ohh, calling someone a "tool" isn't snide mate. It's unsubtle, crude and childish as insults go. Suits you perfectly, as you can see.

Heck, you can't even spell the names of the people you fumblingly attempt to attack. You're a pitifully malformed excuse for a humanoid, with troll written all over your forehead. Added to all this, you possess all the textual grace and intellect of a disembowelled, lobotomised duck that attempts to type a transcript of the Sudanese playboy channel's current affairs segment.

Originally posted by Break_dF:

Oh, and yeah, I fence. There's a life outside of hentai and sw forums.Sure, if you call going to classes where you learn to wave and wobble an impractical stabbing weapon at people dressed as exceptionally hygienic masochist slaves "a life." Now, since you have so much of a fencing-clas... er... I mean "a life" to experience, why don't you go and experience it and decrease the collective ignorance of this board by your departure. :p

Originally posted by Break_dF:

Ask yourself: "Does this guy really give a damn about myself and the rest of the rpg dregs that post on lucasforums?"If I may pre-empt Prime by responding to this particular sliver of solid stupidity, I'd say that the regular posters of Lucasforums don't care whether you care or not. You provide a certain amount of amusement for them, and yes, shock, shock that such a meritless troll could exist in an ordered universe without spontaneously combusting or mutating into a mucus-beast. Or even more of a mucus beast, I should say. But that's the limit of most people's interest in you here, I fear. ;)

Not to mention the fact that you've spent so much time dispersing your particular brand of adolescent garbage around a place full of things you "don't care about". What does that say about you? Think about it during one of your long showers, as opposed to thinking about... other things. STRANGE things.

You can toddle along now btw gummy. :cool:

Break_dF
03-17-2003, 09:04 PM
omg omg, ur neologism is teh own.

Seriously, why spend an hour of your time at dictionary.com to post random bull****? Oh yeah... b/c you're a "tool."

No, I'm not intellegent, and I don't pretend to be. I suck at life too. Sound familiar?

DeTRiTiC-iQ
03-17-2003, 09:18 PM
yes, we see it all the time in your posts.

Break_dF
03-17-2003, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
yes, we see it all the time in your posts.

Been rejected by the tw forum posters again, Detriq? Just another day...

Spider AL
03-17-2003, 09:29 PM
Heh-heh. Good retort Break! Nice to see you've got plenty of evidence to back up your response, and plenty of facts to contradict me with. Oh wait, it's five lines (and notably three paragraphs) of pernicious nonsense, as per-usual! My mistake!

Originally posted by Break_dF:

omg omg, ur neologism is teh own.Sigh. Just a word to the wise: neologism is a word that pertains to new words or phrases.

Originally posted by Break_dF:

Seriously, why spend an hour of your time at dictionary.com to post random bull****?

It took you an hour to look "neologism" up? I'm not really surprised, mind you. And yes, I don't know why you bothered, either.

:D

Originally posted by Break_dF:

No, I'm not intellegent, and I don't pretend to be.

I'm aware of the former, you have PROVEN the former, and considering your self-confessed lack of "intellegence" as you might put it, any pretence to the contrary would likely be so inept as to fail even under the most cursory examination.

Originally posted by Break_dF:

I suck at life too. Sound familiar?Of course it sounds familiar, the world is full of such lackwits. Sadly, I have to deal with them on a daily basis. Which means you're nothing new to me on that front either.

Break_dF
03-17-2003, 09:39 PM
You are just too cool....

Spider AL
03-17-2003, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF:

You are just too cool....Cold as ice, baby. Cold as ice. But enough about me. Why don't you try some self-improvement courses, attitude adjustment seminars... You never know, they might help. Stranger things have happened.

On the Twilight Zone.

Break_dF
03-17-2003, 09:42 PM
Oh btw, tool, I apologize that you didn't understand the indirect "joke" surrounding "neologism." Yeah, I'm the idiot... Look up malapropism. Look at your posts. Stop posting.

Spider AL
03-17-2003, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF:

Oh btw, tool, I apologize that you didn't understand the indirect "joke" surrounding "neologism." Yeah, I'm the idiot... Look up malapropism. Look at your posts. Stop posting.That's alright son, "malapropism" or the unintentional confusion of words, applies to your inane drivel to a tee. So thanks. Once again you fumble around and prove your own ineptitude. There's very little work for me to do. Relaxing. Misspelling "intelligent" was pretty helpful too btw. I have to thank you again for that.

And no, I don't think I will stop posting, thank you very much for the advice. I tend to avoid taking tips from mental tiddlers, ta. :rolleyes:

Break_dF
03-17-2003, 10:02 PM
*sigh*.... tool, you place random vocabulary in your posts to make yourself *look* intelllligggeewnnnt. Words must comply w/ thought.. well, that's the general opinion among most non-idiots; however, your words do not. Yes, all hail to spuderal. He is amazind...

Spider AL
03-17-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF:

*sigh*.... tool, you place random vocabulary in your posts to make yourself *look* intelllligggeewnnnt. Words must comply w/ thought.. well, that's the general opinion among most non-idiots; however, your words do not. Yes, all hail to spuderal. He is amazind...All hail indeed. I'm glad you're getting the idea.

But I "place random vocabulary" in my posts, you say? If such a thing is possible, I'm not guilty of it, your honour sir. I'm just from the old 'U' of 'K', with a dash of a basic state education, and my vocabulary online has been the same since JK1. Check out some board archives why don't-cha, young whippersnapper.

You see, YOUR posts are perfect examples of the sort of tragedy that results whenever people try to throw random and/or obscure words into the mix to make themselves look clever. Take my advice and work on it. It's good, solid advice you know. Entirely for your benefit to boot. :)

Break_dF
03-17-2003, 10:15 PM
You should've been a blow-job...

Prime
03-17-2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF
Ask yourself: "Does this guy really give a damn about myself and the rest of the rpg dregs that post on lucasforums?"
Spider Al has already replied to this and has captured my feelings quite well. The funniest part is I have been grouped as an RPG guy. Dregs, indeed.

Originally posted by Break_dF
Read some of my past posts then comment on how much I've innovated. While you mindless drones where screaming "FF is CHEAP," and wailing your limp sabers around, I was actually helping the community. Can you direct me to some of these posts that show how much you've help the community? Innovated? You sound like a failed 80's rapper. The Biz Markie is not amuzed... :cool:

Originally posted by Break_dF
If you play 1.04 FF and *if you're any good what-so-ever (which I highly doubt), then you can thank me for helping you w/ your *leet moves. What the hell does that mean? :confused:

Originally posted by Break_dF
Now go buy an idiot's guide to on-line gaming and stfu before you say something you can't back up. bbbrrrriiinnngg Hello Kettle? This is Pot. Your black.

Originally posted by Break_dF
No, I'm not intellegent, and I don't pretend to be. I suck at life too. Nah, too easy...

Originally posted by Break_dF
*sigh*.... tool, you place random vocabulary in your posts to make yourself *look* intelllligggeewnnnt. Words must comply w/ thought.. well, that's the general opinion among most non-idiots; however, your words do not. Yes, all hail to spuderal. He is amazind...
Poor troll. Your just fresh out of combacks, aren't you.

Break_dF
03-17-2003, 10:30 PM
My comebacks = your 1st-rate job history.

love.

Spider AL
03-17-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF:

You should've been a blow-job...Well, I am a source of pleasure to those who receive me at such engagements as I attend... Besides, you're hitting rock bottom now, Achey Breaky. That's even more clumsy and rude than your usual fare. Sigh, it's so difficult to find a decent discussion these days. :rolleyes:

Prime
03-17-2003, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF
My comebacks = your 1st-rate job history.

love.

One job history more than you have, I suspect. You 18 year olds are so cute :D

All the best.

Break_dF
03-17-2003, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Well, I am a source of pleasure to those who receive me at such engagements as I attend... Besides, you're hitting rock bottom now, Achey Breaky. That's even more clumsy and rude than your usual fare. Sigh, it's so difficult to find a decent discussion these days. :rolleyes:

especially when you're a tool

Break_dF
03-17-2003, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by Prime
One job history more than you have, I suspect. You 18 year olds are so cute :D

All the best.

not having a job > bukake janitor

Spider AL
03-17-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF:

especially when you're a toolYes, well, you'd know.

Come on now, I'm parrying with one finger here. Can't you throw anything tougher at me? Come on, make a darned effort kiddo! :D

Prime
03-17-2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF
not having a job > bukake janitor

Probably true. But that is irrelevent since you already know I'm a software designer...

Break_dF
03-17-2003, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Yes, well, you'd know.

Come on now, I'm parrying with one finger here. Can't you throw anything tougher at me? Come on, make a darned effort kiddo! :D

:rolleyes:

parrying?... ha

definitely a tool...

Break_dF
03-17-2003, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Prime
Probably true. But that is irrelevent since you already know I'm a software designer...

bukake janitor > software designer

Spider AL
03-17-2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF:
parrying?... ha

definitely a tool...
And I thought you liked fencing. I think though, that you should hang your little stabbing weapon up and study the intricate innards of logic for a while. While you may enjoy whipping your flimsy foil around, your wit is most definitely not rapier-like. Once again, solid advice for you. Take it.

Originally posted by Break_dF:
bukake janitor > software designerHmm, so since you say that having no job is greater than being a janitor, and being a janitor is greater than being a software designer, you're trying to say that having no job is greater than being a software designer?

Gotta tell you, this attitude could hold you back when you go into the workplace in a few years' time... :(

Prime
03-17-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF
bukake janitor > software designer

You almost got it. Just a small typo, though. You ment to write:

bukake janitor < software designer

There you go.

Solo4114
03-18-2003, 12:17 AM
Once upon a time, this thread had a point... I wonder if there are any moderators on this board anymore...

Spider AL
03-18-2003, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by Solo4114:

Once upon a time, this thread had a point... Umm... no it didn't.

Break_dF
03-18-2003, 09:19 AM
Yeah...

:rolleyes:

It's funny; I'm actually embarrassed for you when I read your posts, Spider... How do you take yourself seriously? Read some more Cyrano, realize how much of an idiot you are and wake up in the 21st century, please.

Prime
03-18-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Solo4114
Once upon a time, this thread had a point... I wonder if there are any moderators on this board anymore...

I expected this thread to be locked down long before now. The whole thing is getting pretty silly.

Tosh_UK
03-18-2003, 10:36 AM
as it seems to be a Break_df flaming post now


silly < Break_df

BTW Break yes you do know more about this game than myself, but you need to be more constructive on your replies.

not saying not to be rude i.e calling people a Tool, but it might be better if you give a better account to why and reasoning behind it... plus some facts go down a treat to :)

at the moment Spider AL get my respect as he is being constructive and not posting angry posts.

Spider AL I think your Great :) hehehe

btw Break I have read a few of your posts where they was constructive so I know its in you :) and no I am not your father, and I don't want you to join me also :p
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok i think the subject was: Why did the game die/is the game dying?
I will try to get back on subject

No i dont think the game is dying, for my main reason i play on servers with to many newbs for there not to be new blood comming in to the game. plus there are plenty of servers still up.

got to say do any of you play catch the yasmari (sp?)... ummm i think that counts as off topic... duh

Tosh_UK
03-18-2003, 11:39 AM
Sad (http://clan-shockwave.fragwhore.com/gl-bin/forum/viewtopic.php?p=844#844)

Prime
03-18-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Tosh_UK
Sad (http://clan-shockwave.fragwhore.com/gl-bin/forum/viewtopic.php?p=844#844)

Just a troll, which we already new. Hope he had as much fun as I did...

Spider AL
03-18-2003, 02:21 PM
500 posts eh, that's interesting. :deathii:

Originally posted by Break_dF:

It's funny; I'm actually embarrassed for you when I read your posts, Spider... Coming from you, the undisputed master of the language, that IS funny. :p Heh-heh-heh.

Originally posted by Tosh_UK:

Spider AL I think your Great :) heheheHey Tosh, you've got taste! :lol: Good job posting that link btw, that puts the icing on the systematic dismantling of his pathetic trolling quite well.

It's a shame, I've counter-flamed some really creative trolls in my time, and I was looking forward to a much more challenging experience. Even his rapid-fire flames of last night were slow though.

Now, as to your on-topic points: hopefully, though I won't be playing it myself, the game will survive long enough for all the fanboys to trickle away, until all that's left will be dedicated players who love the game for what it is. Hopefully it will then stay that way until a sequel comes out.

There's no reason why it shouldn't, JK did.

But I fear the competitive aspect of the game is no more. That's not necessarily such a bad thing, players like myself will simply find another, more successful game to compete at. One always has the haunting question in the back of one's mind however: "what might have been?"

sniff.

:cry8:

Sith Maximus
03-18-2003, 05:08 PM
To me the resons for the games demise are simple.

1) Reduced saber damage.

This is a problem with the 1.04 patch but could have been fixed by admins who understood how to change the cvar's to make the sabers more deadly. I changed mine and it resulted in a crowd that played from the week after the 1.04 patch until just a few months ago when I closed my nightly JK2 games. This is partly due to Raven and uneducated admins.

2) Bugs and kick damage

This game is full of quirks and this has resulted in a style of gameplay that has evolved away from the core of the game and to who has the most knowledge of bugs and the best kick script. Turn off kick damage and see how fast the server clears.

3) Mods (Adminmod below)

Mods are not the bain of JK2 but the lifeblood of it. The problem was that too many bad mods (jediplus!!!!!!) were released untested to the public. This along with the fact that, once again, admins were not able to make them run right and in the manner as which they were intended.

4) Adminmod (or abusemod)

Adminmod was adopted in the original sense to make rude players adopt a more civil disposition or leave. It has turned into the clan abuse mod. Now when you enter a clan server you can bet your last dollar some admin will be running around empowered being a general idiot.

5) Clan Abuse

My dad can beat up your dad..............

Clans in JK2 are for the most part childish and selfish. I know you will spam me for that but I do not care for this is my last post to this forum. They are made up of glory based people whos only wish was to "be the best", by laming their way through their servers, if they even had one, and complaining that someone was a noob or a whore if they got beat.

6) The noob, lamer, whore....etc

This game takes the cake for immature players who cannot handle loss or the fact that someone may be better than they are. Admins who get beat kick the players who beat them, ditto for clans. If your good, your a scripter or a cheat. And God knows that any new player with half a brain would be out the door and to Spearhead before the first map change. JK2 people, for the most part, are unhelpfull and selfish. God forbide the new guy learns the lunge, he might beat you.

In closing, this game has failed due to a community of whiners and sore losers. And I leave it to you. Now go rub dirt on each others faces in the playground or growup and learn to play as an adult where it is not if you win or lose, but how you play the game. Oh ya...its a game your NOT a jedi people, and if you were 90% of the community would make Vader look like a Sunday school teacher!

I am out of here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

Spider AL
03-18-2003, 05:50 PM
In closing, this game has failed due to a community of whiners and sore losers.Bravo! I agree wholeheartedly. Smite the fanboys!

Break_dF
03-18-2003, 06:17 PM
Get back in the shed, spider.

Break_dF
03-18-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Tosh_UK
Sad (http://clan-shockwave.fragwhore.com/gl-bin/forum/viewtopic.php?p=844#844)

Good job...

dumbass.

Spider AL
03-18-2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF:

Get back in the shed, spider.Yawn, etcetera. You're not even trying now, are you.

You are, by your own admission, a troll. A troll, I think everyone who posts on forums or usenet would agree, is the lowest form of online life. Not even star-trek-furry smutty fanfic writers are lower than trolls. Not even Half-Life ragers are lower than trolls. Not even fanboys are lower than trolls, because all these things have a reason to exist. They have a purpose. Trolls on the other hand, do not. Trolls are simply tedious, sad individuals with nothing better to do than provide a sort of slapstick humour to those people who populate the forums they grace, through their inept fumblings. Trolls are scum.

;)

Break_dF
03-18-2003, 06:51 PM
Who's more pathetic: the person that starts the "flame" or the person that constantly replies with rambling, ego-boosting paragraphs?...

Spider AL
03-18-2003, 06:53 PM
Who's more pathetic: the person that starts the "flame" or the person that constantly replies with rambling, ego-boosting paragraphs?...Whichever one you are, of course. :) Besides, accusing others of "rambling" when there isn't a shred of meaning in any of your childlike single-line trollings, is rich.

Break_dF
03-18-2003, 07:11 PM
You should've used dictionary.com to look up rambling...

Spider AL
03-18-2003, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF:

You should've used dictionary.com to look up rambling...

Should I? Rambling is a word that describes aimless wandering. That's what YOU'RE guilty of in your meaningless posts, hence your accusations that others are rambling textually are rich. QED, I hope that was simple enough for you. ;)

I doubt it was, though... Too many lines...

razorace
03-18-2003, 07:32 PM
I put up more demos of the ghoul2 blade collision in the MotF forum and the Showcase forums.

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94993

Break_dF
03-18-2003, 08:02 PM
*yawn*

Go back to playing sims, please.

Spider AL
03-18-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF:

Go back to playing sims, please.The originality is becoming overwhelming. :rolleyes:

Do they do courses in trolling? If so, you need to take one. You're the most tedious troll I've ever seen. Ever. And I've posted on some boards full of trolls, I can tell you.

Go-TiME
03-18-2003, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Ohh is that right son? Well good for you! If the community has a player who's won more major tournaments than I have, played more games than I have, made more kills than I have, set more records than I have, discovered more techniques than I have, beaten more notable opponents in more game modes than I have...

someone who played Dark Forces 2 and MotS for years, winning money in prize tournaments, someone who was closely involved in the editing community of those games, producing maps, skins and entries for the Massassi level competitions, writing reviews for other fan-made levels for that site...

Someone who's dilligently researched the limits of the capabilities of the engines of all the Dark Forces series since his entry into that community, someone who trained for up to ten hours daily, unceasingly and relentlessly to become as good as he possibly could at both games, amassing a formidable record of results in the process...

Well, if the community has another player who's done all that and more, it's a really really good thing for the community, and I am thankful for it! If that player is you though, it's a shame that he's so arrogant, insulting and feeble-minded on the side.

Besides, the only great knowledge you've demonstrated here is your great knowledge of how to sling sad and petty little monosyllabic insults around, insults worthy of a true fanboy. :rolleyes: Oh, I forgot, you fence too. Good for you, stabb0r! Because fencing is a truly well-rounded fighting art, with many modern applications, and close relations to lightsabre fighting styles as depicted in the canon, as we all know. :p

Now that we've gotten all that out of the way, Breaky, you listen real close: Your logical arguments are non-existent, you fail to back up any of your wild slurs with fact, and even when you're contradicting people like ILR, people that I disagree with strongly, you do it in such a childish and insulting manner that you sicken even me, I who have been famous in the DF community since 1998 for my uncompromising debating style. Now my advice to you is to grow up forthwith. It's good advice. An intelligent person would take it. :D
Thats nothing to be proud of you ****ing queer :biggs: :deathstar :deathii: :bdroid1: :band: :atat: :amidala: get a life

razorace
03-18-2003, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by Break_dF
*yawn*

Go back to playing sims, please.

Uhh..improved blade collision benefits every type of player. To say otherwise is like beleiving that Iraq don't have WOMDs.

Go-TiME
03-18-2003, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by razorace
Uhh..improved blade collision benefits every type of player. To say otherwise is like beleiving that Iraq don't have WOMDs.
ummm stfu?


yes. gtfo

Break_dF
03-18-2003, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
The originality is becoming overwhelming. :rolleyes:

Do they do courses in trolling? If so, you need to take one. You're the most tedious troll I've ever seen. Ever. And I've posted on some boards full of trolls, I can tell you.

Then stop replying, tool.

Prime
03-18-2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by razorace
Uhh..improved blade collision benefits every type of player.

I had a look at your demos, Razorace. Looks pretty cool. I have a few questions though. First, are you guys set to walk by default? The whole fight you are just walking around. Is that just to make it easier to follow? Secondly, it seemed to me that there were several times when the saber seemed to go right through the other player without there being any damage. Am I missing something there? Maybe I'm just used to seeing crummy collision detection. I love the fact that the saber damage was higher, and after a few hits, the other player was dead.

Can you explain a little more what you are changing?



Hey look! More trolls in here! :D

Go-TiME
03-18-2003, 09:06 PM
hey look gtfo boater.

razorace
03-18-2003, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Prime
I had a look at your demos, Razorace. Looks pretty cool. I have a few questions though. First, are you guys set to walk by default? The whole fight you are just walking around. Is that just to make it easier to follow? Secondly, it seemed to me that there were several times when the saber seemed to go right through the other player without there being any damage. Am I missing something there? Maybe I'm just used to seeing crummy collision detection. I love the fact that the saber damage was higher, and after a few hits, the other player was dead.
Thanks. No, we were walking to try to make it easier to see the blade collisions. The demo recording also makes the controls a bit harder to use, especially on the lag-o-mania JK2 is on my dial up. :|Can you explain a little more what you are changing?You mean specifically with the saber system? It's pretty complicated. I suggest you repost the question in the MotF Forum.Hey look! More trolls in here! :DI'm pretty sure it's just Break_DF with new account. They're acting the same, posting in pairs, and it's a brand new account. I've reported the bunch of them.

Jolts
03-18-2003, 09:19 PM
solo: first thing I would do is redo all the animations and the animations system. Second would be making sure I had an engine that supported ragdoll physics, karma or something else. Movement speed, weapons, models, sounds, music....I would want to redo it all.

Theres nothing in the original JO I would really want to keep, from the way the weapons fire to the way your strafe animation plays. It's a shame I'm under NDA can't talk about swg since I've been beta testing it for a long time now, and it would be easier to be able to compare to something else. Only other thing I have to compare with is obi-wan and most people just shut down after they read the name.

Sorry I can't give more detailed examples right now, just had my wisdoms yanked and I'm all high on drugs.

ILR
03-18-2003, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Jolts
solo: first thing I would do is redo all the animations and the animations system. Second would be making sure I had an engine that supported ragdoll physics, karma or something else. Movement speed, weapons, models, sounds, music....I would want to redo it all.

Theres nothing in the original JO I would really want to keep, from the way the weapons fire to the way your strafe animation plays. It's a shame I'm under NDA can't talk about swg since I've been beta testing it for a long time now, and it would be easier to be able to compare to something else. Only other thing I have to compare with is obi-wan and most people just shut down after they read the name.

Sorry I can't give more detailed examples right now, just had my wisdoms yanked and I'm all high on drugs.

*resists urge to ask questions about SWG*

I'll try to ask something as innocent as possible.... judging that you were wanting to compare JO's dueling system to SWG's.... is it or is not safe to assume that SWG will have a kind of saber dueling for would be Jedi? DON"T ASNWER IF YOU CAN"T!!!!!11111

btw.. aren't there mods at this forum? Last forum I was at Break would have been IP banned so long ago it's not even funny.

Break_dF
03-18-2003, 09:52 PM
Too bad I'm not a Richard Simmons Junkie, huh RIL?

Jolts
03-18-2003, 11:29 PM
I was thinking more of other weapon comparisons, not lightsabers or anything like that. More design and keeping the feel of the movies.

Solo4114
03-19-2003, 12:03 AM
Well, from the sound of it, you seem to be suggesting that SWG is going to be pretty true to the feel of the movies, something that I felt JO lacked in a big way.

I'm actually curious about Obi-Wan. Did that game ever come out on ANY platform, or did they cancel it altogether? And what was the combat system in that one like?

As for mods on this forum, if this thread is any indication, I'd say this forum is pretty much Thunderdome. :)

Jolts
03-19-2003, 12:35 AM
obi-wan came out on xbox. It was nothing that the original pc version was supposed to be, not even close. Only thing the same was you played as obiwan during tpm.

The controls were cool, could have used some work. Right thumb stick moved forward, left thumb stick controled the saber. That felt pretty good to me. Double tap up on the thumb stick to do a special saber spin in the hand trick. Hold back on the thumb stick to deflect a shot back at the person who shot at you and lose some force mana. You had a few saber force moves that were nothing special. Left trigger was the force modifier button and you used that with you normal buttons to use force powers.

Saber system in obi wan let you become much more accurate than JO. You could swing you saber left/right/whatever standing still or while running.

The limited force powers in the game jump/push/throw/pull/saberthrow and speed(slowmo bullet time) all worked out to be fun to use, and for me felt better than JO's. I like being able to just pull a gun out of someones hand, instead of pulling them down and the gun. In obiwan I can pull a gun out of someones hand, push them down, then throw something at them and kill them. Just felt better. Having ragdoll physics for powers like force throw also helped make the player seem more powerful.

Basic gameplay was the same as JO. You start out in a level with your mission objective and go from point a to point b killing everything. Obi wan actually had a little more ingame npc interaction, but thats not saying much. I have been digging around the obiwan cd tearing out audio files and other stuff and can see in some of the old scripts what was once ingame, and it would have blown JO away.

Obi wan actually had bigger more detailed levels than JO. What it didn't have was curved surfaces 1024by1024 textures and 3000 poly models. But it did have bump maps and pixel shading on water.

AI obi wan had better ai than JO, and again thats not saying much. AI would spread around you, avoiding getting to close, unless they were melee characters like tuskens or jin ha. They could do acrobatics you could, and moved in a more normal pace.

obi wan felt like star wars to me, while jo kind of felt like star wars. I could go on and on, but for me as a single player and ls dueling 1on1 game I had more fun with obiwan than JO.

StormHammer
03-19-2003, 04:59 AM
Okay, how about people try to get on, eh?

Break_DF has been temporarily banned for flaming and trolling.

Go-TiME...the other members of these boards deserve respect. If you have a point to make, then don't flame. Any more posts in this vein will get you banned. I look forward to your cooperation. :cool:

As for everyone else, you all know the rules, so try to keep this discussion on track, or this thread is heading for closure...

Go-TiME
03-19-2003, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by StormHammer
Okay, how about people try to get on, eh?

Break_DF has been temporarily banned for flaming and trolling.

Go-TiME...the other members of these boards deserve respect. If you have a point to make, then don't flame. Any more posts in this vein will get you banned. I look forward to your cooperation. :cool:

As for everyone else, you all know the rules, so try to keep this discussion on track, or this thread is heading for closure...
suck my **** douche bag

razorace
03-19-2003, 07:00 AM
Woah, you don't need the Force to know someone's going to get permabanned real soon.

Prime
03-19-2003, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Go-TiME
suck my **** douche bag

You are the worst troll ever...

Toodles... :D

Spider AL
03-19-2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Solo4114:

As for mods on this forum, if this thread is any indication, I'd say this forum is pretty much Thunderdome. The only difference is: here, the one who leaves has lost. ;)

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Well, from the sound of it, you seem to be suggesting that SWG is going to be pretty true to the feel of the movies, something that I felt JO lacked in a big way.I gotta few questions:

Was it just the flechette and certain Force Powers that made it feel non-starwars in your opinion?

It was comparable to the original JK which was also excellent, did you play JK1?

Is there anything that changed in JO that made JO less Star Warsy than JK?

razorace
03-19-2003, 10:40 AM
Heck, JK1 was worse in my opinion. I did like Force Blind thou. Don't get me wrong, I loved JK1. It had a better story but it's force powers were a bit....off the path. :)

Jolts
03-19-2003, 12:51 PM
For me it wasn't just the weapons and force powers, it was a bunch of little things all combined. Weapon design was bad, the conc in jki had more star wars design to it.Raild det...eh, not really very starwarsy.

AI in JO was pretty bad. It didn't have to be smart to capture the sw feel. In obi wan they would offset shooting in characters, and while a few shot at you the rest would reposition They would also take about 3 shots rest and take 3 more. They didn't just see you, all start firing at the same time at 100mps with no let up. Everything in JO was very uniformed it all happend at once. In the movies you see things like 3 shots, wait, 3 more shots. Obi wan got that, JO didn't.

Everything doesn't have to move at 100mps in order to have fast paced combat, its awsome to have hardcore action but at the same time be able to see the whats going on and plan out some cool moves. You could do that in obi wan, in Jo I would be end usually having a trooper run into my saber blade while I was blocking the constant fire. SO many kills were robbed from me by that system.

Level design in JO really didn't feel like star wars to me at all. It had some star wars looking textures, but basically I could have been in the same imperial base the whole time and never really noticed a difference. For the imperial base levels that is.

The level textures were pretty bad, me and my friends did a run through of the game looking at textures and just calling out the obvious photoshop plugins and filters used for each one it gave them all hope of getting a job in the game industry. Doom giver didn't feel like a ship, it felt like an extention of the first 2 levels or something. Textures looked like concrete with lights stuck in them. Maybe if they updated the shader and lighting system they could have pulled off some nice metalic shaders.

But raven got jacked by that 1 year timelimit, so I can see how limiting that would be. That leaves no time for a second pass, or gameplay cleanup. Those are just a few things that didn't make JO feel that starwarsy to me.

Spider AL
03-19-2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Jolts:

For me it wasn't just the weapons and force powers, it was a bunch of little things all combined. Weapon design was bad, the conc in jki had more star wars design to it.Raild det...eh, not really very starwarsy.Okay, you think weapon design was bad... Why? What about the weapons was bad? The energy weapons were all well-executed, thermals were still in, all pretty good. Which weapons specifically didn't you like?

Originally posted by Jolts:

Everything in JO was very uniformed it all happend at once. In the movies you see things like 3 shots, wait, 3 more shots. Obi wan got that, JO didn't.In Obi Wan, as far as I'm aware, not having played it, one mainly used a lightsabre. In JO one had many gun battles too, so of course the combat has to be more challenging and all-out. As for "like the movies", once again I'm sorry, but being "like the movies" isn't as important as being challenging and dynamic. Playable, in other words. And "cool moves"? you want "time to plan"? where's the excitement in that? Where's the rush, the flow or the sense of danger? One might as well play on padawan skill and be done with it...

As I said before, JO was a natural sequel to JK, and it had a similar dynamic and scope, and was a touch slower even. So if you want big sweeping changes, the place for those is a completely different game. The Dark Forces series is made in a certain style, there are a lot of people who really enjoy that style, so frankly, quit trying to change it. Nothing good can come of such an effort.

Tosh_UK
03-19-2003, 01:06 PM
I all ways wondered why JK2 on the CTF maps only had a few!!! was it because of trying to rush a game to the shelf? or did they look at it as something to upgrade after release, or just maybe let the gaming community mod more for them self's? as to me CtF is one of the best things about JK2 (as you don't have to be good at every thing to play well) but I think it was one with the least maps.

myself I need to maybe down load a CtF map mod and get to a server running them, as them same ol maps are making me go stir crazy LOL

Rumor
03-19-2003, 01:30 PM
*sigh* its quite amusing (well not really) that everyone is accusing break of the extreme ego, when *gasp* they start in with "i am quite famous since blah blah blah" or "i was staff here and won this and that"

omg guys get a life!!! you are acting no better than he (only with more flair), yet you try to elevate yourself above the rest of us. i for one don't give a rats ass who you are and what you've done. i don't "respect" or "honor" people for their reputations, i respect them for the level of maturity they show, and many of you have shown little outside of polished writing skills. i mean, hell look at break (if you can bear to :P). he may insult people, that is true. he grates against your very natures, but he doesn't try to disguise and sugar coat it to show off to his fanboys when he does, unlike a few i see here. (yeah you prime, spider al, and prolly a few others)

now, get back on the topic for christ's sake, and stay on it instead of taking offense at every comment that doesn't seem to conform with your ideas.

Jolts
03-19-2003, 01:36 PM
I didn't like the way the weapons, looked, fired, and played. I didn't like the effects on the firing and I didn't like the smell of them.

when I'm talking about time to plan that doesn't mean action is slowed down, that means while I'm hacking the first layer around me, I can watch the animations on the others and see where they are heading and what type of action they are going to do. Are they lowering down getting ready to fire? or are they getting ready to bring in something bigger?

As for being like the movies I was talking more as creating the atmosphere of the movies. Its hard to explain unless you've played it. And whats dynamic about running around blocking blaster shots that sound like your deflecting ping pong balls, while at the same time having storm troopers running into your lightsaber? Whats dynamic about a power that always knocks everything in your fov down at the same time while they all get up at the same time? Whats dynamic about troopers that just shoot and never stop? What is dynamic star wars game play? 100 weapons 100 force powers and a box full of troopers and at-at's standing still all firing at the same time?

Time to plan doesn't need to be more than a second, its lets push these 3 down, choke this one, then ninja flip around hacking the rest. Sense of danger doesn't always have to be 100 people running at you with autofire on. Undying had a constant sence of danger with not many cratures attacking at once. When it came, it came hard and fast.

The action in obiwan was just as fast and hardcore as jo, just more clean. But the whole thing me and solo were talking about was capturing the feel of star wars and what we liked. He had never played obi wan and asked what it was like. so I made some examples for him, thats it. Out of the 2 games obi wan had a closer to star wars feel from sounds to animation to weapon design to level design. And thats the only other game I can use to compare to JO.

Rumor
03-19-2003, 02:08 PM
obi wan is an exellent game that is for sure

Solo4114
03-19-2003, 02:38 PM
Al,

First off, I'd like to apologize for going off the handle with you earlier. I think that one of the reasons why I get heated up about this issue (and possibly why many of us get heated up, though I can't speak for everyone else) is that I saw such potential for this game, and I really WANTED it to be cooler than it turned out. Although many folks who've posted in this thread may want different end results, in that sense, I think a lot of us were let down. You seem to feel that, as far as MP goes, the changes implemented by Raven at the urging of one particular vocal part of the community ruined a game that could have been. Though I may disagree with exactly what I wanted the end result to be, I can definitely sympathize with the feeling of what could have been.

I think Jolt has hit on at least one of the major aspects of the game that led to it lacking the Star Wars feel I was looking for, though I did enjoy SP.

For MP, I suppose the level design came into play in failing to create that Star Wars feel. Some of the textures and environments seemed similar to the movie, but the levels just seemed kind of small and pointless. Run around, grab this gun, go kill a guy. That, however, is my main problem with DM play. It just doesn't really excite me that much. MAybe the problem with JO, for me at least, was that the CTF mode of play always felt under-supported. There really were only, what, 6 maps that were released by Raven? These maps were often just mirror image maps, which can be fun sometimes, but can also get boring after a while. Even if the maps hadn't been mirror image style maps, they still would've gotten old with only 6 of 'em to play, especially since some maps were less fun to play than others (Nar Shadda was always an irritating one for me -- nothing but throwing people off the runways on that one). I'd probably be singing the praises of this game if the CTF mode had had more support for it, more maps that were more interesting, and really just more people playing on 'em. Also, when you think about it, in terms of map design, approaches to the flag points were fairly limited, so coming up with creative strategies ended up being kind of pointless.

In terms of the guns, yeah, the type of projectiles that they fired was a big part of why they felt less "Star Wars" to me. Even if the EU says that the flechette gun shoots explosive charges, I just didn't think they'd look like bouncing balls. As for the heavy repeater, if it does fire a secondary plasma ball o' death (the one back in DF and JK1 fired a three shot round, more like a limited shotgun), I wouldn't expect it to be quite as big, or look the way it did in the game. As far as the other weapons go, the thermal detonaters were fine, as was the E-11 and the Bryar. The trip mines were ok, but I hardly ever used 'em. Same goes for the detpacks. The bowcaster is straight out of the films and previous games, and I had no real problem with it, it just never seemed very useful. The disruptor may be from the Star Wars EU books, but it felt like Raven just ripped it from Elite Force and stuck it into JO. The missile launcher was ok, there's nothing inherently UN-Star Wars about it, but when combined with how the other guns operated, it just felt like you were being given the same old smorgasbord (sp?) of guns that you usually find in an FPS. When I play a Star Wars game, I'm looking for something different.

Also, in terms of the guns, the LOOK of the guns lacked a real Star Wars feel to me. As I mentioned, guns from the films all look like real world small arms because they actually ARE real world small arms, just with various doo-dads stuck to 'em. :) Solo's DL-44 is just an old Mauser C96 with a scope and some other stuff attached to it. The E-11 is a Sterling SMG. The larger Stormtrooper heavy blasters or repeating blasters are old German WWII machineguns or British machineguns. The guns in this game felt more blocky, less sleek, and with less resonance to real world weapons (which the film guns had). Take the flak gun, for example. It looks essentially like a cinderblock with a pistol butt attached to it. Even the repeater changed from JK1 and DF, where it looked reasonably slim by comparison, to a huge bulky gun that looks like it'd be pretty awkward to wield. The missile launcher was ok in this respect (in terms of looks, I mean), though it too seemed a little bulky. Really, the only guns that were true to the look and feel of the films were the ones that were taken directly from the films or operated the same way.

As far as JK1 (and DF for that matter) goes, I did play both in their time. JK1 was somewhat better than JO. The concussion rifle had the right look to it, and I suppose shot the right sort of projectiles to give it the feel I was looking for in a Star Wars game. The bowcaster, thermals, E-11, bryar, etc. were all fine, just as they were in this game, and the other explosives operated much the same way as one would expect. The railgun was a bit weird, though, and felt somewhat out of place.

What I've always wanted, though, was something more true to the films. Weapons in Star Wars are less about shooting big explosive projectiles and more about shooting essentially laser bullets. As in the real world, you can have blasters that perform different jobs. Sniper rifle blasters, shotgun style blasters, pistols of different calibers (well, maybe not calibers, but different power), etc. With the exception of the bowcaster and the E-11, none of the other guns have ever really used this style. Take the fusion cutter from DF. That had NOTHING to do with anything anyone had ever seen in Star Wars. I still think you could put in nothing but blaster style weapons, with one or two explosive weapons (IE: the concussion rifle -- as the name suggests, it should shoot something explosive that produces a concussive effect; or some sort of light rocket or missile launcher). You could just have different guns that perform different tasks. A sniper blaster would be great at long range, but worthless in close combat, so you'd switch to your DL-44 (why did this gun only ever appear officially in MoTS??) or your E-11 or some other close quarters weapon.

As far as the force powers go, I can accept that some stuff has to be sacrificed from the films to make them fun in the game, although a lot of them seemed overused or ill implemented. Absorb in 1.2 is a classic example. It operated almost identically to how it did in later iterations, but it had the old blue glow, which made its use pretty much worthless, except as a means to buy time. When it changed, though, drain became kind of useless too. Honestly, I wouldn't have minded tossing BOTH these powers out the window (bring back throw, dammit! I miss tossing boxes at people) and instead having some sort of innate defensive power that will cancel force powers being used against you. Grip, lightning, push and pull seemed basically ok in theory, but were also implemented strangely. Push and pull were easy to spam, and could've used some sort of cool down period so you don't simply keep hitting push-push-push until someone is knocked down completely. Like, it'd take one or two seconds before you could push or pull again. Pull should NEVER have been able to pull a guy down, just take his weapon. Heal was poorly implemented in that it gave an instant boost (albeit a weak one, depending, or a costly one), where a gradual regeneration would probably have been more appropriate. I don't care if you're Yoda, it ought to take you time to close a gaping wound. Mind trick and seeing were only marginally useful (or at least, marginally used) in MP combat, and seem to be more useful for SP play. Jump and speed were basically fine. Rage had no business being in the game, and neither did protect.

Force powers in JK1 were kind of goofy too (IE: the old protect bubble, deadly sight, destruction, etc.), but it's been so long since I played that game that I don't really remember what all of them were.

Hell, I dunno. Maybe having fewer force powers, but implementing them better (or having other more innate force powers -- IE: ability to sense danger/enemy presence, ability to resist the use of the force against you, ability to block shots that don't always reflect back at the attacker, etc.) would've worked better.

Anyway, those are some of the reasons why I didn't like guns and force powers. The sabre is a whole other story which would take a long post in and of itself to explain, so I'll save that for some other time (or just not post it at all -- my posts do tend to run a bit long ;) ).

Spider AL
03-19-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Rumor:

now, get back on the topic for christ's sake, and stay on it instead of taking offense at every comment that doesn't seem to conform with your ideas.We were already back on topic when you posted this, and if anyone's taking offence wrongly here, it's someone not a million miles away from you who's taken offence at posts not directed at him.

Nobody's trying to belittle you when they point out a troll's inadequacies, and people listing their own Jedi Outcast achievements in defence of accusations that they "know nothing about JO" really shouldn't have such a negative effect on you.

I'm not sure what you meant to accomplish by your post, but it just seems like another beginning to a flame war. Sigh.

In fact, are you BREAK? Very suspicious.

Originally posted by Jolts:

I didn't like the way the weapons, looked, fired, and played. I didn't like the effects on the firing and I didn't like the smell of them.Yeah, I understand you didn't like them mate. What I'm asking for is your reasons for disliking them, things like "Flechette firing rate too high, made it too powerful etc." which other people have expressed. I can't see your point of view clearly unless you articulate it for me.

Originally posted by Jolts:

when I'm talking about time to plan that doesn't mean action is slowed down, that means while I'm hacking the first layer around me, I can watch the animations on the others and see where they are heading and what type of action they are going to do. Are they lowering down getting ready to fire? or are they getting ready to bring in something bigger?I understand this. However, you're still talking about having a warning of what's coming next. Personally I find leaping into a hail of gunfire and having only my skill and reflexes to rely on, exciting.

And don't sell JO's AI short, it was fairly dynamic in that Stormtroopers attempted to surround you, and if an officer was present in their group they did so much more efficiently, and their morale was higher. I had a whale of a time taking out officers first and running after the demoralised stragglers. It was great. :)

Originally posted by Jolts:

Undying had a constant sence of danger with not many cratures attacking at once. When it came, it came hard and fast.
Undying was a suspense/horror game, and very good at its job too. Added to this, the creatures in undying were somewhat more deadly, to compensate for their relative numbers. And of course, there WERE moments when you were swamped with creatures in Undying, notably the levels full of howlers and undead leading up to Lizbeth's crypt. The DF series however, has always been about liquidating large numbers of foes using your leet skillz0rz.

I don't know about you, but I don't find stormtroopers suspenseful enough to occupy my restless mind when I'm not busy fighting them, which howlers from Undying, cyborgs from SS2 and face-huggers from AvP DID.

Lots of large-scale action is one of the defining characteristics that has made DF one of the most long-lasting, popular game series in recent years. Changing that would be atrocious.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

I'd probably be singing the praises of this game if the CTF mode had had more support for it, more maps that were more interesting, and really just more people playing on 'em.

An interesting idea about the CTF maps... But it's an important thing to remember that from a competitive point of view mirror image maps are the only ones that are fair to both teams. If the maps hadn't been mirror image, a lot of players would have been complaining that they were imbalanced, as if they didn't whine enough in CTF already. Ugh. "TEEEMZ TEEEMZ TEEEMZ r UNEVEN!!!11"

Re: what you disliked about the guns- personally, as I say, I'm less interested in making the game like the movies than I am in making the game good. If there were only energy weapons with a few minor thermals/tripmines, the sabre would be all-powerful. I know you'd probably say that was no bad thing, but I definitely would: Weak guns = worthless guns = sabre all the time = no point having guns at all. Re: the look of the guns, okay... the Flechette looked big and square. I can't say it bothered me that much, or that it seemed instantly "un-starwarsy". SW by its very nature was eclectic, and the set designs and props were all very diverse. I don't think SW had any underlying ideal surrounding its choice of scenery, tools or weapons. In reality, it was merely buck rogers on a better budget with a better cast.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge SW fan. I just don't have any illusions that it was divine in its message or continuity.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Even the repeater changed from JK1 and DF, where it looked reasonably slim by comparison, to a huge bulky gun that looks like it'd be pretty awkward to wield.Well it was a different gun. Heavy repeater, etc.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

As far as JK1 (and DF for that matter) goes, I did play both in their time. JK1 was somewhat better than JO. The concussion rifle had the right look to it, and I suppose shot the right sort of projectiles to give it the feel I was looking for in a Star Wars game.I'm surprised that you say that. The concussion rifle was more devastating in JK than the heavy repeater, which you dislike, was in JO. From a practical standpoint the conky was massively "imbalanced" to use the parlance I dislike.

I'm getting the impression that the way the guns look is very important to you. I can't pretend to understand that, it seems trivial to me. As long as they don't look like big purple beach-balls, I'm fine with it. :D

Re: Force powers, I agree with some of your points, and if you cast your eye back over earlier threads, you'll see the same things being posted by myself, and many others. But the possibility that the DF4 dev will ever look on this forum is remote, so I'm not convinced of the usefulness of such sentiments. That's why I don't repeat myself anymore.

In the final analysis, I play games for a long time. I'm a long term player of a single game. Minor graphical concerns fade away quite quickly when you play a game a lot, and what's important is that the game has good solid gameplay. That's the most important thing that a game should possess. Everything else is window-dressing.

Rumor
03-19-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
In fact, are you BREAK? Very suspicious.

can i make complete sentences that are longer than three words?

Solo4114
03-19-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
An interesting idea about the CTF maps... But it's an important thing to remember that from a competitive point of view mirror image maps are the only ones that are fair to both teams. If the maps hadn't been mirror image, a lot of players would have been complaining that they were imbalanced, as if they didn't whine enough in CTF already. Ugh. "TEEEMZ TEEEMZ TEEEMZ r UNEVEN!!!11"

I see your point re: competitive maps needing mirror images. I do think you can play a competitive map, however, and have it be asymetrical, you'd just have to make sure that both sides of the map were (brace yourself) BALANCED! :D Just kidding. Well, sort of. By balanced, I mean fair to both teams. Neither side of the map would be easier to defend or attack, they'd just be different. Otherwise, you'd end up probably having one team be more on defense, and one on offense more, and if that's the case, why bother having two flags at all? Take, for example the Lavafort map in UT CTF. Granted, the approaches to the bases are identical, but the bases themselves are different, and may require different approach tactics to actually snag the flag and begin your run back home. To me, that's a balanced, but (minorly) asymetrical map. That'd be the kind of design I'm looking for in a good asymetrical CTF map.

Re: what you disliked about the guns- personally, as I say, I'm less interested in making the game like the movies than I am in making the game good. If there were only energy weapons with a few minor thermals/tripmines, the sabre would be all-powerful. I know you'd probably say that was no bad thing, but I definitely would: Weak guns = worthless guns = sabre all the time = no point having guns at all.

A good point. Don't get me wrong. I'm not looking to sacrifice gameplay fun for SW authenticity. Given the choice between fun and authenticity, I'd definitely pick fun (otherwise, why play the game in the first place?). I do think that you could still have more blaster weapons and have them vary in power. To help avoid having weak guns and unstoppable sabres, you could make one's ability to block a blaster shot dependent upon the relative strength of the shot. Your blocking ability could be tied to a.) how powerful the shot is and b.) how many shots you have to block. You could even tie it to whether you're standing still or moving (the game may have done that, I don't remember -- it seemed that at lvl 3 defense, it didn't matter much). The longer you've been blocking, the more likely it is that you'll lose your concentration and shots will slip through. In terms of the strength of the shot, the more poweful the blast, the fewer times you can block one. You could even bring back the concussion rifle and have it's shot be unblockable (but affected by force push so, if you were fast enough, you could direct it back at the enemy). I definitely don't want all powerful sabre wielders. If you're playing as a jedi type character, you should still be vulnerable to a great big explosion. Take the Geonosis arena battle, when the Geonosians bring out that gigantic cannon and kill, like, 5 jedi in one shot. Jedi should still be vulnerable to guns, but those guns should still have a Star Wars feel to them.

Re: the look of the guns, okay... the Flechette looked big and square. I can't say it bothered me that much, or that it seemed instantly "un-starwarsy". SW by its very nature was eclectic, and the set designs and props were all very diverse. I don't think SW had any underlying ideal surrounding its choice of scenery, tools or weapons. In reality, it was merely buck rogers on a better budget with a better cast.

See, to me, the look of the guns is important. Not necessarily as important as making the game fun, but if the guns look and feel more Star Wars, then the game will be more fun to me. Plus, when I'm playing a Star Wars game, dammit, I want it to feel like Star Wars. :) The whole point of playing a Star Wars game, as opposed to, say, Elite Force, or Quake 3, or UT2k3 or what have you, is because I want to play in that particular universe. Towards that end, the look, sound, feel, and function of the weapons in-game need to at least approximate, if not stay 100% true to their film counterparts. When things get tricky is when you include things not seen in the films to flesh things out and make the game more interesting. I've no problem with doing that, I just want them to function along the same lines and have the same kind of look as the films. Above all, though, the game should still be fun to play. As far as the design of the sets, props, etc. goes, it WAS Buck Rogers with a better budget, but if you look at the guns in the films, they look different enough to appear futuristic, but not so different as to appear totally alien to the audience. They look believable as guns, and when they fire, you're willing to believe that that's probably how they'd operate, given the environment in which the films occur. That's what I'm looking for: something that jives with the rest of the design theme (even if that theme was based purely on budget concerns) so as to maintain the believability of the weapons. I'm not sure if I'm explaining what I mean to say, though, so I'm just gonna move on. :D

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge SW fan. I just don't have any illusions that it was divine in its message or continuity.

Well sure. Just look at that whole midichlorian thing. Where the hell did THAT come from? One movie we get zen buddhism in space, another movie we get, "No, no, it's little bacteria." :confused:

Well it was a different gun. Heavy repeater, etc.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

I'm surprised that you say that. The concussion rifle was more devastating in JK than the heavy repeater, which you dislike, was in JO. From a practical standpoint the conky was massively "imbalanced" to use the parlance I dislike.

See, I thought that it was balanced in terms of things like ammo consumption, rate of fire, etc. Sure it was powerful. Nothing wrong with having powerful weapons in a game. In fact, it makes things interesting. But it also had some downsides to it. The rate of fire was lower than other weapons, the weapon had no spread to it's shots, aside from the concussive blast when it made contact, and (if memory serves) it ate up more ammo than any other gun. To me, that's balanced. You have benefits, but they are offset by disadvantages. Balancing does NOT equal across-the-board nerfing. It simply means (to me, at least) that the weapon or action performed in the game has pros and cons to its use and that, while something may be powerful, there are counters that can be used against it, and it has disadvantages upon which an opponent may capitalize (assuming they have the skill, creativity, etc.).

I'm getting the impression that the way the guns look is very important to you. I can't pretend to understand that, it seems trivial to me. As long as they don't look like big purple beach-balls, I'm fine with it. :D

See above. Though, yes, big purple beach balls would be a problem. :D

Re: Force powers, I agree with some of your points, and if you cast your eye back over earlier threads, you'll see the same things being posted by myself, and many others. But the possibility that the DF4 dev will ever look on this forum is remote, so I'm not convinced of the usefulness of such sentiments. That's why I don't repeat myself anymore.

I dunno. If I was a dev, I'd at least want to guage fan reaction to prior games before developing a new one in the series. At the same time, I'd glance over forums like this, if only to see if someone there had come up with a good idea I wanted to use. Then again, if I were under a deadline to get a game out by X-mas and it's August, I might not look quite as thoroughly. :)

In the final analysis, I play games for a long time. I'm a long term player of a single game. Minor graphical concerns fade away quite quickly when you play a game a lot, and what's important is that the game has good solid gameplay. That's the most important thing that a game should possess. Everything else is window-dressing.

I agree that gameplay is paramount. And I too am a LONG time game player. I still play Star Control 2 and that's an old DOS game. The graphics are 2d and, while good for its time, are now HEAVILY dated, but because it's a great game with a great story, I still play it. But, if it's a game that's based on a license, and that game doesn't accurately caputre the feel of the licensed material, I may not be sucked in as easily and may not end up sticking around long. Also, at least in terms of JO, I found that the gameplay in its base form was not all that compelling so, even if the game had had fancy graphics, I probably would've gotten bored with it after a while. From the looks of things, though, there may yet be hope, if the mod community can start developing mods that do more than let you pick lightsabre colors and hilts, do pirouettes (sp?), and pretend you are a nerf herder from Dantooine.

razorace
03-19-2003, 06:53 PM
Starcontrol 2 is a E ticket ride all the way. :)

Solo4114
03-19-2003, 07:43 PM
Not to get too far off topic, but razorace, you should check out the Pages of Now and Forever. (www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol) Fred Ford and Paul Reich III have released the source code to SC2 and it's been rereleased as a windows native program called the Ur-Quan Masters. Check it out! :)

razorace
03-19-2003, 08:00 PM
Really?! Last I heard the source code had been lost. I guess they found it. :)

Spider AL
03-19-2003, 08:32 PM
Retro-fest. Heh.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Take, for example the Lavafort map in UT CTF. Granted, the approaches to the bases are identical, but the bases themselves are different, and may require different approach tactics to actually snag the flag and begin your run back home. To me, that's a balanced, but (minorly) asymetrical map. That'd be the kind of design I'm looking for in a good asymetrical CTF map. Well, I've never played UT to any great standard, but at a cursory glance the blue base in Lava Giant(?) seems to have much superior sniping/defensive spots. That's really my point, differences almost always = advantages for one team. Sure, there HAVE been asymmetrical maps which were fairly "balanced" but they're few. Happened upon by accident, probably.

Even the slightest changes convey advantages. Take Yavin CTF: Red base has two lines of innocuous pillars in it. Made my life much easier when I came to get the red flag and ran out of Force. Dodging in and out all the time... mmm...

Intentional balance of the type you're talking about... well, as I've said elsewhere, even chess isn't balanced.

But I agree variety in maps is great, as long as there are some good mirror-image maps that can be used competitively in the game.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

I do think that you could still have more blaster weapons and have them vary in power. To help avoid having weak guns and unstoppable sabres, you could make one's ability to block a blaster shot dependent upon the relative strength of the shotYes, one could make more interesting blaster weapons. But unless some weapons are inherently capable of penetrating the lightsabre, whoosh, all-powerful lightsabre.

Also, the more complex you make the blocking system, the more prone to lag failiure it'll be, which will annoy the huge number of people who have some sort of latency problem. Single-key Manual with penalties would be nice, but I'm not here to expound my own theories on blocking methods.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

The whole point of playing a Star Wars game, as opposed to, say, Elite Force, or Quake 3, or UT2k3 or what have you, is because I want to play in that particular universe.Well, I have to disagree here. The point of playing a DF game is because they're well polished, first-person shooters with hyper-real physics, arcane special powers and decent melee combat. DF has always skirted the canon when it comes to Star Wars. Dark Jedi? Thats an oxymoron, that is. Force-crystals? Force Destruction?

DF has never been and I hope never will be so ultra-faithful to the films that it loses the unique feel and flavour that the original carved out.

DF is a NEW experience. It's not pure SW. It's a hybrid, a blend. It's unacceptable to try and squish that. Too many people love it.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

See, I thought that it was balanced in terms of things like ammo consumption, rate of fire, etc. Sure it was powerful. Nothing wrong with having powerful weapons in a game. In fact, it makes things interesting. But it also had some downsides to it. The rate of fire was lower than other weapons, the weapon had no spread to it's shots, aside from the concussive blast when it made contact, and (if memory serves) it ate up more ammo than any other gun.Oh no, totally imbalanced. Two-three shot stop, like the flechette. Difference is: The conky bolt travelled in a completely straight, nigh-infinite line, very very fast, and had about the same firing rate as the flechette secondary too. Easy to hit, much easier to make than flechette kills. Ammo was always plentiful in JK too, especially with the backpack dropping.

It was quite a lot of work to hog the power cells, armour and conky in JK, and that was the best way to win.

JO was much better in that there were two... maybe even three other guns that could rival the flechette. Rocket L, Heavy Rep and Tenloss at range. That meant the levels played in a much more fluid fashion.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

To me, that's balanced. You have benefits, but they are offset by disadvantages. Balancing does NOT equal across-the-board nerfing. It simply means (to me, at least) that the weapon or action performed in the game has pros and cons to its use and that, while something may be powerful, there are counters that can be used against it, and it has disadvantages upon which an opponent may capitalize (assuming they have the skill, creativity, etc.).Oh, there are always disadvantages to any weapon that good players try to capitalise on. Let's take the flechette as an example again. Range was key with the flechette. It wasn't much use to most players at long range, and was hazardous to the user at short range, very vulnerable to a well-timed push. Thus the intelligent player cultivated an ability to maintain a mid-range with the flechette. Opponents tried to increase that, or cut it down. Repeater on the other hand was a good rival because of its high rate of primary fire which could be utilised in close, and secondary fire that was far less high-risk in close. It could be used at long range very effectively. Paradoxically, the rocket launcher was best in close, or when the opponent wasn't aware of one. It was nearly useless at long range, very good for mid-air primary shots on the fly, however.

But as I've said elsewhere, name me a gun and I can think of genuine disadvantages inherent in it. There will always be a gun that's MOST powerful however, and decent players will always compensate very quickly through their style of play, for any disadvantages there are. People learned to aim well with the flechette. To sweep areas with it. They became very VERY good at maintaining that middle-distance.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

I dunno. If I was a dev, I'd at least want to guage fan reaction to prior games before developing a new one in the series.Maybe, if the dev's unusually dedicated and doesn't mind wading through the gazillion opinion threads... and if anything we say now applies in the future when gaming's evolved another few years' worth.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

That's what I'm looking for: something that jives with the rest of the design theme (even if that theme was based purely on budget concerns) so as to maintain the believability of the weapons. I'm not sure if I'm explaining what I mean to say, though, so I'm just gonna move on.No, I get you. But what IS the Star Wars "theme"? I'm not sure even SW scholars could tell you. George Lucas certainly doesn't seem to know. He's dressed all the Jedi as "desert hermits" for some reason. He's made shiny what was dirty and made cutesy what was gritty, and that's just in RotJ. The prequels? Don't get me started. :(

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Also, at least in terms of JO, I found that the gameplay in its base form was not all that compelling so, even if the game had had fancy graphics, I probably would've gotten bored with it after a while.Well, of course, since it's a Star Wars game you feel the urge to change it to be more to your liking. When I don't think much of a game, I leave it alone. I don't bother about it.

If this game didn't have the words "Star Wars" in the title, nobody would care, I don't think...

Originally posted by Solo4114:

if the mod community can start developing mods that do more than let you pick lightsabre colors and hilts, do pirouettes (sp?), and pretend you are a nerf herder from Dantooine.Quite. Hope springs eternal...

Yergh.

"I run this clothes shop on Drazen isle!"

"And I'm here to rob you and steal all your takings. Die."

*Tzzztt!*

"LAMOR NO KILLINGZ!!!111"

Gotta love them RPGers. :)

razorace
03-19-2003, 09:14 PM
I agree with symmetrical map comment. ANY differences on a team map results in an advantage for one team or the other. The red team on Lava giant has the advantage (it's easier to get to teh blue flag by jumping the wall.)

Solo4114
03-20-2003, 12:10 AM
See, right there, you prove my point Al & razorace, at least on the asymetrical stuff. Al said that lavagiant seemed to favor the blue team, in terms of defense and sniper positions. The blue team had limited protection with its small turrets, so that snipers could provide better cover for the main approaches. But, by the same token, they also had an easier flag to get to. Jump the wall, run across a bridge, and you're there. The red team, on the other hand, had a base that had more open sniper positions (therefore more prone to being killed by offense) but had a less direct approach to their flag. You'd have to go to the back of the base in order to get to it, if memory serves. So right there, you can see how one side has advantages and disadvantages, as does the other side. The balancing comes into play by making sure that neither side has an advantage or disadvantage that outweighs the other side.

I don't mind symettrical maps mostly, I just find that they can get old. If they're done right, though, they're fantastic fun. Even the old 2fort variations for CTF in Quake and such were a blast to play, and they were usually symmetrical.

As far as the design theme, I think that with the weapons in the original trilogy, you can see a pretty standard theme. Guns were based mostly off of WWII era weapons (likely because it was easy and cheap to obtain these as surplus, then chop 'em up and stick geegaws on 'em). In the new films, Ep. I seemed to be going for a more sleek, shiny, artsy look (which was actually a conscious decision, apparently) in order to differentiate with the more gritty look of the original trilogy. In terms of Ep. II, the usual footsoldier equipment of the Clone troopers was much more in keeping with the style of the original trilogy. The clonetrooper rifle is a great example of how you can have interesting looking new blaster weapons. And that was entirely CG and only VERY loosely based on the E-11 design, it seemed. (or rather, it'll evolve into the E-11)

Al, I think where you and I differ fundamentally is in what we want out of the game. I defintely want an experience that is as close to the films as possible, without sacrificing fun in the process. You seem content with a suggestion of the films, but nothing close to a real adherence to their content. I don't mind EU stuff. Don't get me wrong. I find it to be a nice change of pace. Like I've said, I wouldn't have minded keeping weapons that function similarly to the ones we have in this game, it's just the look and feel of them that I felt didn't jive with what I'd seen in the films and imagined from the books I'd read. Honestly, from playing Elite Force, a lot of the weapons in JO seemed pretty close to what you saw in EF. Makes me wonder just how much innovation Raven really did.

You're right, though, that if the game didn't have the Star Wars trademark on it, people wouldn't care, but that's what a trademark is all about: it's to indicate to the consumer what they can expect from the product. You seem to distinguish the DF trademark from the Star Wars trademark, and are happy with what you found JO to be. In terms of keeping with the DF theme, I'd say JO was pretty damn faithful. But to me, the DF games themselves never really captured the feel of Star Wars that I was looking for. I suppose the first DF game (from what I can remember) did this, but even that game had its flaws.

As far as the concussion rifle discussion goes (hey, that almost rhymes...), I think that kind of illustrates what I'm talking about. I'm fine with conkys being the most effective weapon all around. I'm fine with them being unblockable, or at least difficult to block (similar to the flechette at midrange). But I think the reason that I liked the conky more than the flechette was that it just felt more Star Wars. The look, the firing effect, etc., all seemed to suggest the films to me more than the flechette did. In that sense the conky was better designed, albeit probably a bit unbalanced, from what you described (like I said, it's been a good couple of years since I played JK1). If I were to create a disadvantage for that weapon, it would be the same one that the secondary fire of the flechette has: it can be pushed back towards you, if the opponent is fast enough and has force powers. It can't be blocked, it has an area effect for damage, and it's EXTREMELY powerful, but it still has that one small achilles heel that you can try to take advantage of. If the guy with the conky is smart, he'll find ways to compensate for that disadvantage, but it's still there. To me, that's balance. It doesn't screw up the game, either. That'd be what I'd look for in a more starwarsy kind of game: something that hews closer to the films in terms of the overall feel, something that's reasonably balanced (but not nerfed to the point of being useless), and something that's still fun.

Spider AL
03-20-2003, 11:03 AM
So right there, you can see how one side has advantages and disadvantages, as does the other side. The balancing comes into play by making sure that neither side has an advantage or disadvantage that outweighs the other side. I see where you're coming from, but the ability to stop the opposing team GETTING to one's base with impunity is more valuable. Take two teams of equal skill, put them on an asymmetrical map, and one team will win due to terrain differences. No set of advantages or disadvantages on an asymmetric arena are equal.

As far as the design theme, I think that with the weapons in the original trilogy, you can see a pretty standard theme. Guns were based mostly off of WWII era weapons (likely because it was easy and cheap to obtain these as surplus, then chop 'em up and stick geegaws on 'em). In the new films, Ep. I seemed to be going for a more sleek, shiny, artsy look (which was actually a conscious decision, apparently) in order to differentiate with the more gritty look of the original trilogy. Well there you go. For Lucas at least, the design theme is apparently more related to budgetary concerns than any artistic continuity. ;)

Al, I think where you and I differ fundamentally is in what we want out of the game. I defintely want an experience that is as close to the films as possible, without sacrificing fun in the process. You seem content with a suggestion of the films, but nothing close to a real adherence to their content.Exactly. As I've said before, Dark Forces is an experience in its own right, a hybrid of SW and EU and FPS. It's wonderful. If you made the game purely like the movies, you'd be ruining that dynamic. Another game is the place to do things like that.

Like I've said, I wouldn't have minded keeping weapons that function similarly to the ones we have in this game, it's just the look and feel of them that I felt didn't jive with what I'd seen in the films and imagined from the books I'd read.I do understand what you mean, and I would imagine I'd be equally miffed if say... the LotR movies hadn't lived up to my expectations.(In fact, I'm sure Peter Jackson had a spy in my brain, they were so close to my imagination :D ) But I'm not sure you can blame Raven for not making the EU guns the same as you imagined them...

In terms of keeping with the DF theme, I'd say JO was pretty damn faithful. But to me, the DF games themselves never really captured the feel of Star Wars that I was looking for. I suppose the first DF game (from what I can remember) did this, but even that game had its flaws. Well there we have it, in a nutshell. Now, if a game was made to your specifications that was as close to the movies as you'd like, I'd play it, for one. But not if it replaced the classic flavour of Dark Forces, by being the next in the series. Dark Forces is a specific type of game. It has a tradition to maintain. Perhaps a PC-based sequel to Obi-Wan would be a better target to change into the game you want, as it seems to have the same ideas, and a shorter pedigree.

As far as the concussion rifle discussion goes (hey, that almost rhymes...), I think that kind of illustrates what I'm talking about. I'm fine with conkys being the most effective weapon all around. I'm fine with them being unblockable, or at least difficult to block (similar to the flechette at midrange). But I think the reason that I liked the conky more than the flechette was that it just felt more Star Wars.Ah. Okay. I don't understand the reasoning behind this at all. hehehe :eek:

Once again, it seems to be a fundamental difference: The first thing I look for is gameplay. I know gameplay's important to you too, but it seems to be in the queue behind your idea of what feels Star Warsy, which I don't agree with really...

That's fine though, each to his own. But as I say, DF is its own game, and like Quake, it has its own style. To change it to what you've described would be the same as never having a DF sequel. It wouldn't really be DF, you see.

Solo4114
03-20-2003, 11:34 AM
Well, maybe you're right about the DF games, then. The should keep releases in relative continuity to the previous games, definitely. Maybe an Obi-Wan sequel or an entirely new series of FPS shooters IN ADDITION to DF games are what is needed. Personally, I feel that the exploration of Kyle as a character is getting somewhat stale (at least for SP). Maybe that's because they had him going gray at the temples in this game. :) Then again, hell, so am I, and I'm only 25. :D

For MP purposes, I guess what I've been trying to suggest, is that by adding game modes (IE: the CBOM stuff I advocated earlier in the thread) should not necessarily replace the standard DM/CTF/etc. game modes, but rather should add on to it. I definitely see where you're coming from in terms of how you see DF. It seems that you really view it as a separate thing from Star Wars. It's its own license for you, and so, if the games all approximate EACH OTHER, then you're satisfied (assuming they're fun to play, of course). I get that. For me, I'm looking first at the Star Wars logo, and second at the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight logo, in terms of my expectations. That's not to say that I'm willing to sacrifice gameplay, it's just that what I expect out of a game set in the Star Wars realm is that it be first and foremost, true to the original materials, and secondarily be true to the previous games. But that's just how I prioritize things.

It seems that Raven is (assuming they get the gameplay/fun factor right and minimize the bugs on first release or first patch) pretty good at making DM style games. I don't enjoy DM, but it seems that a lot of the people who do find JO to be quite fun as simply a DM game with some Star Wars content.

Maybe what would be a smarter move for LucasArts (from a marketing standpoint) would be to release TWO games next time around, and thereby cater to different factions in the community. They could release DF4, have it focus on Kyle (or Kyle's kid or whatever), and have the MP gameplay be basically similar to what you have in this game (just PLEASE give us more CTF maps, and preferably slightly better ones -- don't give us LESS DM maps to compensate somehow, just give MORE CTF maps). At the same time, maybe they should produce an entirely separate title like "Star Wars: Team Battles" that focuses gameplay in a similar fashion to games like TFC, RTCW, and BF1942. No real single player content, aside from playing against (hopefully well-programmed) bots, much like what the original UT shipped with. You could play Clones & Jedi vs. Confederation & Sith, or Rebels vs. Imperials, or offer both sets of conflicts on different maps (IE: a Geonosis map, a Hoth map, a Death Star map, etc., etc.). Since the DF games (aside from the first one) all take place after ROTJ, you'd have plenty of source material to work with, and could keep weapons more akin to the blasters seen in the films. If some anal fanboy wanted to critique this based on the timeline, you could say, "Well, Kyle was always performing commando operations against highly technologically advanced and well equipped Imperials and neutrals. That's why the repeater, etc. were in the games. The later games simply represent the progression of technology after the close of the Civil War." :)

Thus, you don't have to replace DF with new content, you can stay true to the DF trademark, AND you can give the fans who want a more film-like, less EU-like experience what they're looking for. AND you'd probably sell twice as many games, because idiot fans like myself will probably just end up buying both. :) In that sense, I think you'd be giving everyone what they want and expect. And it's exactly Lucas' style: why put out one authoritative collection that's full of content to please EVERYONE when you can keep releasing individual new versions of things over and over, add maybe a smidgen of new material, and get the fans to keep shelling out the cash for it? (>sigh< I sure hope that the DVD collection of the original trilogy, or all six movies, will include the original versions of the films as well as the SEs. I plan on making my own SE version of ANH and replacing the GODAWFUL Greedo scene with its original.)

Oh, and as far as Jackson's ability to capture the look and feel of the LOTR books, it really IS uncanny (although he did have plenty of artwork to base things on). Overall, I thought his films have been fantastic (especially the extended uber-geeky-tolkien-fan version :D -- can't wait for the next films to come out in extended directors cut versions on DVD). My only gripe so far has been that one thing with Faramir. I get why he did it, I just always thought of Faramir as above that sort of thing (based on the books/BBC radio drama -- which, if you haven't heard is FANTASTIC). But that's a little OT, admittedly. :)

Spider AL
03-20-2003, 12:09 PM
Yeah, I think two games would be the best way to go. Also, the more SW games the better, naturally.

sure hope that the DVD collection of the original trilogy, or all six movies, will include the original versions of the films as well as the SEs.So do I, but I wouldn't count on it. I heard somewhere a while ago that Lucas was quoted as saying:

"The SEs are the movies now. What is this Or-ig-in-al you speak of? I know not this word. Now go, lest I set my ninja on you."

Well, in so many words.

Bah. Han was much more interesting when he was ambiguous.

My only gripe so far has been that one thing with Faramir. I get why he did it, I just always thought of Faramir as above that sort of thing (based on the books/BBC radio drama -- which, if you haven't heard is FANTASTIC). But that's a little OT, admittedly.

Oh yes, the BBC drama was good. And apparently there's quite a bit of Faramir dialogue floating around Jackson's cutting room, I hope it'll all end up in the extended DVD to fill out the character a bit more. More mention of why he knew Boromir was deceased, etc. Fingers crossed.

Jolts
03-20-2003, 01:15 PM
well, solo basically said everything I was going to say about the guns and everything else. Later I'll make a better post but right now my jaw is killing me.

As for seperate games, I still say lucasarts should develop a online only game, and then have any other sp games be seperate. They get twice the money, and we get 2 choices and 2 teams dedicated to working on one apsect each.

AS for kyle, I never cared about him, or his dark forces title. He reminds me of a cheap lorenzo lameass character. Some kind of cheeseball lethal weapon mel gibson cheap ripoff, some kind of nbc 80's detective sissy check out my 5 oclock baby because its time to rumble on the wb. I only was interested in dark forces and jedi knight because they had "star wars" in the title.

Drugs kicking in...sleep...oh yeah....

Prime
03-20-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Jolts
I sure hope that the DVD collection of the original trilogy, or all six movies, will include the original versions of the films as well as the SEs. I plan on making my own SE version of ANH and replacing the GODAWFUL Greedo scene with its original.Alas, I believe Lucas has commented that there are only going to be the SE editions on the DVDs. There is the story on it at TheForce.net somewhere. I think there is a petition about it somewhere too.


Originally posted by Jolts

AS for kyle, I never cared about him, or his dark forces title. He reminds me of a cheap lorenzo lameass character. Some kind of cheeseball lethal weapon mel gibson cheap ripoff, some kind of nbc 80's detective sissy check out my 5 oclock baby because its time to rumble on the wb. I only was interested in dark forces and jedi knight because they had "star wars" in the title.Blastphemy! Thou shalt rot in Hell for these faithless words against our Kyle! :D

razorace
03-20-2003, 01:53 PM
I suspect the DVD versions will be different from even the SE editions. Star Wars v3.0. :)

Jolts
03-20-2003, 02:24 PM
whoa

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jolts
I sure hope that the DVD collection of the original trilogy, or all six movies, will include the original versions of the films as well as the SEs. I plan on making my own SE version of ANH and replacing the GODAWFUL Greedo scene with its original.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I never said that, where is it pulling that quote from?

Spider AL
03-20-2003, 04:13 PM
Yeah Jolts, Kyle owns you. Kyle's beard owns you. Kyle's shoulder pad owns you.

So there.

Blah Lucas.

Jolts
03-20-2003, 05:29 PM
only thing kyles owns is a George Michaels lookalike contest. Brothers perhaps?

http://www.jeffdolen.com/Look%20Alikes/Cameron%201.jpg

yeah hard looks and 5 o'clock shadows are real cool.

Spider AL
03-20-2003, 08:55 PM
I wonder if the original cuts of SW still exist, even. It'd be just like Lucas to burn them in the eternal flame he keeps lit on his altar to cash money in his basement or something.

So much was superior about the original cuts. Was it me, or was the Rancor a better special effect in the original cut? Darker, less backdropping?

Jolts: Kyle's is a full, MANLY beard, like mountain men from... the mountains... grow. Deliverance notwithstanding. Kyle's beard could win a fight against your father.

If Kyle's beard can win a fight against your father, it can win a fight against you and therefore is >= you. If Kyle's BEARD >= you, Kyle's whole being is > you. Ergo, Kyle pwns you, or any member of your immediate family.

Okay,.. oh my lord, I've gone insane. Hlep me. Hlep me plaees.

:(

DeTRiTiC-iQ
03-20-2003, 09:29 PM
here, let me remove that staple.

Spider AL
03-20-2003, 10:00 PM
here, let me remove that staple.Drop the staple remover and back away slowly, cully. Nobody points any object at me that's sharper than an earthworm.

Hmm, Devastation demo should be out now, bbl... :)

Solo4114
03-20-2003, 10:45 PM
He can go right ahead and destroy 'em. You KNOW there are people out there with copies in good condition, and I've got a DVD version of the original trilogy non-SE'd from Hong Kong. Visual quality isn't quite as good as something official, but if I can splice the greedo scene out of existence, I'll do it. Honestly, I liked the SE's new stuff, though Jabba in ANH just looked WRONG, as do many organic creatures when you CG 'em. I'm sorry, but I actually prefer Ray Harryhousen (sp?) stop-motion photography and maquettes to CGI a lot of the time. For some reason, they actually look more real to me. Probably because they're real physical objects.

Anyway, I'd keep a fair amount of the SE's new stuff, and would simply edit the Greedo scene out. Most of the rest of it was ok, from what I can remember. I wouldn't put it past him to release a v3.0, though. At the very least, Jabba needs some fixin' BIGTIME. I don't get why he'd destroy the originals, though. To me, at the very least, they'd be worth having for history's sake. To see how far the technology had come.

Kurgan
03-24-2003, 01:32 AM
The game hasn't died, just some people decided to quit playing and start whining.

Honest. Despite my great love for our site and forums, we represent a tiny fraction of the total JK2 community, and we should never assume that what we do is the norm.

Really.

Just think of all the people who play the game on different timezones than you, or that play on "The Zone" or who play on other unlisted servers, or who play different versions of the game (1.04 won't show you 1.03 or 1.02 servers for example).

People were already announcing the "death" of this game a month after its release. I say LET THEM GO.

If they want to leave, fine... don't let the door hit you on the way out!

JK2 is the most advanced Star Wars game out, period. Galaxies may be more complex with its RPG manner (when it comes out), but you won't find me playing it, since you have to pay every month, and you can't just sit down for some fast action straight up with lightsabers and force. So in that sense, JK2 will always have a place... and the mod community is just getting warmed up.


I'm not mad, I'm just sick of hearing how because so and so quit the game, we all have to quit and stop having fun, just because he's bored and endless whining about how the patch ruined everything etc etc.

So enjoy yourself and don't let these guys spoil your fun. Go make a mod or something useful...

/end rant


Exactly. As I've said before, Dark Forces is an experience in its own right, a hybrid of SW and EU and FPS. It's wonderful. If you made the game purely like the movies, you'd be ruining that dynamic. Another game is the place to do things like that.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Prime
03-24-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
JK2 is the most advanced Star Wars game out, period. Galaxies may be more complex with its RPG manner (when it comes out), but you won't find me playing it, since you have to pay every month, and you can't just sit down for some fast action straight up with lightsabers and force. So in that sense, JK2 will always have a place... and the mod community is just getting warmed up.If I had a penny for every time a read someone saying, "when Galaxies comes out JO will be dead"...

I've seen some expectations that are really way off when it comes to Galaxies and KOTOR. For some reason, many people seem to believe that those games are going to be FPS-style saber combat and replace JO. KOTOR is going to be a point and click deal, and in Galaxies it will be a very difficult to become a Jedi in the first place. As far as Galaxies goes, people are expecting the world. I've said it before, but any game that relies on teenage l33t d00ds for SW immersion is a disaster waiting to happen. That's why JO is so great. I have SP for SW immersion and MP for hack and slashing fun. I hope Galaxies and KOTOR (can't wait for this one) are big successes though, because maybe then all those RPGers around here will go play those instead mucking around on JO servers...

Personally, I think JO fills its role in the SW gaming universe well.

Kurgan
03-24-2003, 03:35 PM
When Doom3 comes out, SimsOnline will be dead.


You know, now that I think about it, the community is a mixed bag, and that's a mixed blessing.

At first I thought that the RPGers were the ones unhappy with the game and that they were the ones that were all leaving (and I said good riddance) and I hoped that Galaxies and KOTOR would draw them away.

Now I'm seeing that some people play the game ONLY because they use it to role play.

Then I thought maybe it was the hardcore "competative" gamers that were leaving, because the game was biased towards RPG players. Then I realized that some people play the game despite the complaints and frustration of RPG players.

So now my view is that many people like the game for many different reasons, and some people have stopped playing the game and moved on for many different reasons, and there's no real accounting for taste.

The good news is, if you still play the game, there's people to play with and people making mods to enjoy, so you can still have fun!

razorace
03-24-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Prime
I've seen some expectations that are really way off when it comes to Galaxies and KOTOR. For some reason, many people seem to believe that those games are going to be FPS-style saber combat and replace JO. KOTOR is going to be a point and click deal, and in Galaxies it will be a very difficult to become a Jedi in the first place. As far as Galaxies goes, people are expecting the world. I've said it before, but any game that relies on teenage l33t d00ds for SW immersion is a disaster waiting to happen. That's why JO is so great. I have SP for SW immersion and MP for hack and slashing fun. I hope Galaxies and KOTOR (can't wait for this one) are big successes though, because maybe then all those RPGers around here will go play those instead mucking around on JO servers...
Exactly, a LOT of people are going to come back to JO once they realize how specialize KOTOR and SWG are.

Break_dF
03-24-2003, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by Rumor
can i make complete sentences that are longer than three words?

Can you find your shift key? Obviously... :rolleyes:


Hello again, friends. :)

shock ~ unnamed
03-25-2003, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by Break_dF
Hello again, friends. :)

BAD SCARY MAN RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:rifle1: :snipe1: :toilet1: :tank1: :afro1: wok1 :lazerhead

Prime
03-25-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Break_dF

Hello again, friends. :) Well look who it is! Shall we assume that the trolling shall commense immediately? :p