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griff38
03-04-2003, 10:16 AM
The link below is to an article on Salon.com that says that some of the biggest news east of the Atlantic is the U.S. caught spying on our friends and allies at the UN.

salon (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/03/04/spy/index.html)

I have heard absolutely nothing about it here in the U.S.
(except for Salon)

Europeans: is this big news where you live?

United States: have you heard about this? Do you care our media avoids truths that don't make us feel good about ourselves?


How hard is it to imigrate to Norway or Denmark?

Luc Solar
03-04-2003, 11:20 AM
Well...dunno if it was HUGE news, but news it was, yes.

Damn you Yankee spies!! :swear: ;)

It's not hard to immigrate to Sweden. Norway and Denmark are probably a bit tougher..I guess. But nevermind that - What the hell is wrong with Finland?! :mad: Why doesn't anyone want to immigrate here? Why would anyone move into Scandinavia anyways?! ...they're dumb and... talk all funny too! Bah. :mad:


I'm sorry. I just feel left out. If you say Norway, Denmark or Sweden, you mustn't forget about little ol' Finland. We rock! :D

EDIT: o.O ... what was this thread about? :p

ShadowTemplar
03-04-2003, 12:09 PM
I haven't heard... Then again, I don't pay as much attention to the news as I probably should. But I'm pretty sure that it didn't make it to the big headlines for several days in a row... Maybe someone will dig it up at an inconvenient time for the US... Maybe when they start bombing Bagdad?

It's pretty hard to immigrate to Denmark, but Sweden should be fairly easy (at least our politicians are bitching about how relatively easy it is to immigrate to Sweden, and then using a hole in EU law to get into Denmark, so I guess that that is the easier place of the two.

But, generally speaking, I think (note that I don't have data to back it at this time) that you will find that those countries that have the highest degree of social services (free health care, free schools, social security, ect) will be the ones that are least open to immigration.

ET Warrior
03-04-2003, 10:14 PM
Meh, we're always spying on everyone, doesn't surprise me that we spy on countries in the UN....

SkinWalker
03-05-2003, 01:33 AM
I found that same story earlier today on one of my favorite sites (Cryptome (http://cryptome.org)), which linked to this online newspaper in the UK (http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,905936,00.html).

I had the same impression that you had, Griff. Why isn't it being covered in the US media? Actually, I knew the answer to that.... it's the same reason that I get my best news from the BBC on my local Public Broadcasting Service station.

The US media is very careful about what it reports.... this happens frequently. There was a case (here in Texas, I think) where a kid took a gun to school and was neutralized by one or two students who went out to their cars and got a gun of their own. The media quickly picked up on the fact that students saved the day, but neglected to mention that it was done with firearms... ironic, since that was the most "newsworthy" fact.

Not to accuse the media of being overly liberal (generally they are, and I think that's as it should be regarding the media), since there have been obvious props given to Bush throughout his tirade about Iraq. I think the media censurs itself far too much, probably due to being owned by huge corporations that have vested intrests in the opinions of the public.

As far as Europe vs. the US..... it does seem that way. That troubles me. I cannot blame many Europeans for their sentiments... Bush comes off to the rest of the world as elitist and dictator-like (at least to non-American intrests). He has also been described as a protestant-fundamentalist, contrasting the islamic-fundamentalists that he has declared "evil." Europe, being largely secular, sees this as illogical behavior for a world leader. I would hope that most Europeans do not hate "Americans," but rather the American leadership. Unfortunately, I suspect many don't make the distinction.

To all of my European friends... most Americans are equally frustrated with our Leadership. That last statement, of course, is my opinion, but I predict it will bear out as true in 2004.

SkinWalker

FunClown
03-16-2003, 08:12 AM
That sounds pretty sad. However, in matters of Intellligence a lot is going on that you don't know nor is going to be televised for various reasons.

BigTeddyPaul
03-16-2003, 10:45 AM
I actually heard that here on the west coast only once. It was at 4 in the morning when World Wide NEws comes on for all those people in the east. US is begging to be hated.

BigTeddyPaul

Cosmos Jack
03-17-2003, 05:45 PM
The US is always being hated by someone..... I really don't are anymore or for what resion.... I still like Japan though :naughty:

ShadowTemplar
03-20-2003, 01:57 PM
Yeah, but when you're being hated by your allies, who also happen to be enlightened democracies, you should begin to realise that you have a problem... Just food for thought.

Cosmos Jack
03-20-2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
Yeah, but when you're being hated by your allies, who also happen to be enlightened democracies, you should begin to realise that you have a problem... Just food for thought.

Sorry there guy, but I don't eat a lot of JUNK FOOD......

All that high calorie crap you read is making your head get fatter. Maybe you should cut down.....

"enlightened democracies" lol please most of the countries in Europe are so screwed up its pathetic.....

Luc Solar
03-21-2003, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
"enlightened democracies" lol please most of the countries in Europe are so screwed up its pathetic.....

:rolleyes:

Another quality post by Cosmos Jack... :disaprove

Lundquist
03-21-2003, 04:43 AM
yes... It's remarks like that, that makes us europeans love americans...

seriously though, I have absolutely nothing against americans, it's the current government that seems suspect to me.
Everybody I know can make the distinction between the government and the population, though I must admit I was a bit surprised by the huge peace demonstrations in the US.

Yes it was also news here that the US was spying - also news that the CIA "helped" an ex-Iraqi general out of Denmark and back to Iraq. The exact purpose is unknown.

About imigrating to Denmark: Yes it has become harder, because the socalled 'Dansk Folkeparti' ~ 'Danish Peopleparty' is part of the government. They don't like foreigners much... But then, the combined intelligence in that party is -10! Morons all of them, how they became the 3rd largest party at the last election is beyond me. The best thing about Denmark imo is that education is free (you actually get payed to go to school) and health care is free too. It's also easier to get alcohol in Denmark than Sweden, we have a tonne of jokes about drunk swedes in Denmark, but it's always fun when they come over.

whoops I'm getting off topic. Anyway, I don't think americans have to concern themselves about being disliked over here.
Unless you're one of those that just don't give a crap.

ShadowTemplar
03-21-2003, 06:17 AM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
"enlightened democracies" lol please most of the countries in Europe are so screwed up its pathetic.....

Enlightened: Educated in the ways of science and supporting the ideals of The Age of Enlightenment. Europe is far more enlightened than the US will ever be, and that's documentable fact.

Democracy: People-rule. Most (if not all) European countries are far more democratic than the US... Feth, even the EU is much more democratic than the US, and that's saying something.

Sooo, what's so screwed up? A lot of things are, but I don't see how that relates to my post.

*Checks flame retardant body armour*

But then, the combined intelligence in that party is -10!

Irrespective of my personal opinion of the party in question, I have little doubt that they are at the very least of average intelligence, based on their display of logical skills and memory.

Cosmos Jack
03-21-2003, 11:44 AM
I love how people in this forum are such hypocrites. As long as you agree with everyone else you can say what you want how you want. If you don't agree watch out we will all gang up on you... BLA WHATEVER............. lol

As for Europe..... WHATEVER what you said there guy is just OPINION your OPINION. Maybe other peoples OPINION as well, but nothing more than OPINION. A negative OPINION on America and a negative OPINION on Americans......

"US was spying" Hmm ok and when has not every country spyed on everybody else. It wasn't that long ago we caught a Russian spying in America woop woop that happens all the time. I'm sure other countries do it to, but the US isn't allowed to. WHATEVER

Why on Earth would we put a Iraqi general that was out of Iraq back in..... Especially when were about to go to war and are now. Maybe he is a defector. Naa we just wanted to help Saddam out lol

It's sad that the hole of Lucas forums are nothing more than a place to bash America.... When I registered I didn't See "A Place for Star Wars Geeks to Talk Crap About America" on the info.

As for all the people who like to post smart remarks about me. Don't worry you can do it all you want. I wont loss any sleep over it....
If makes you feel better about yourself when you wake up in the morning. All the power to you.

ShadowTemplar
03-21-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
I love how people in this forum are such hypocrites. As long as you agree with everyone else you can say what you want how you want. If you don't agree watch out we will all gang up on you... BLA WHATEVER............. lol

There is some truth to this... Buuut, 'the other guy does it too' never did make for a good excuse.

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
"US was spying" Hmm ok and when has not every country spyed on everybody else. It wasn't that long ago we caught a Russian spying in America woop woop that happens all the time. I'm sure other countries do it to, but the US isn't allowed to. WHATEVER

Point taken

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
Why on Earth would we put a Iraqi general that was out of Iraq back in..... Especially when were about to go to war and are now. Maybe he is a defector. Naa we just wanted to help Saddam out lol

Oh yeah, he was a defector... Unfortunately he was also a criminal. He's now most likely gonna go free.

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
It's sad that the hole of Lucas forums are nothing more than a place to bash America.... When I registered I didn't See "A Place for Star Wars Geeks to Talk Crap About America" on the info.

If you don't like our comments then there's a handy little trick for shutting us up: Refute our points. If you do so, we'll bow to your superior knowledge and logic... Fail to do so, and we'll be disinclined to take you seriously.

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
As for all the people who like to post smart remarks about me. Don't worry you can do it all you want. I wont loss any sleep over it....
If makes you feel better about yourself when you wake up in the morning. All the power to you.

Hmmm... I'll leave that hanging in the air for a while... Remind me to take it down before it becomes too smelly.

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
As for Europe..... WHATEVER what you said there guy is just OPINION your OPINION. Maybe other peoples OPINION as well, but nothing more than OPINION. A negative OPINION on America and a negative OPINION on Americans......

Ok, this just earned you a place on my Ignore List next to Mandelorian54, Lukeskywalker1, and RpTheHotrod. When you want to get out of that kind of company, learn to distinguish between opinion and fact or reasoning.

Cosmos Jack
03-21-2003, 01:26 PM
Hmm ok..... Ignore away.

If you can't take the truth that your OPINION isn't fact
................oh well

Here is my OPINION of EUROPE.....

All of you are afraid of the US. The US is the most powerful country in the world. It can just about do whatever it wants, where it wants, and when it wants to do it. If we force are will on Iraq what's to keep us from doing it to everybody that doesn't agree with us.
If the US was bent on world domination at the hands of a true dictator. I doubt any of you would do anything about it except complain on this forum. Europeans hate the US more than the Iraqis do.

I watched the News this morning. They showed a Iraqi village were they were practically calibrating the US rolling threw there town, but I guess that was all a hoax and we had guns pointing at them telling them to dance for the camera.

Cosmos Jack
03-21-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
If you don't like our comments then there's a handy little trick for shutting us up: Refute our points. If you do so, we'll bow to your superior knowledge and logic... Fail to do so, and we'll be disinclined to take you seriously.

Hmm......... I'm not taken seriously, because I don't agree with you. I have seen no facts just opinions and speculation.

Cosmos Jack
03-21-2003, 01:34 PM
Funny there is a US Army add at the top, and a US navy add at the bottom lol:rolleyes:

Luc Solar
03-21-2003, 02:07 PM
ALL Europeans HATE amricans because we are AFRAID of them?

:rolleyes:
That must be the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time.

"All europeans"...what the hell do you think we are, one country with 1.000 people who all think the same? Russia and China are 'europeans' too, yes?

Please give me one reason why I should not consider you a troll? :mad:

griff38
03-21-2003, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
Hmm ok..... Ignore away.

If you can't take the truth that your OPINION isn't fact
................oh well

Here is my OPINION of EUROPE.....

All of you are afraid of the US. The US is the most powerful country in the world. It can just about do whatever it wants, where it wants, and when it wants to do it. If we force our will on Iraq what's to keep us from doing it to everybody that doesn't agree with us?
They showed a Iraqi village were they were practically celabrating the US rolling thru their town, but I guess that was all a hoax and we had guns pointing at them telling them to dance for the camera.


You said, "It can just about do whatever it wants, where it wants, and when it wants to do it. If we force our will on Iraq what's to keep us from doing it to everybody that doesn't agree with us?"

Yes and that makes the US un-democratic boot stomping Tyrants. Might makes right huh? Sounds like Nazi Germany to me , and I am sure this makes tons of certain U.S. citizens very happy.
However the majority of US citizens do NOT feel this way and like me are sick and horrified that our illegal goverment can sweep away democratic principles to further their power consolidation.

Sure Sadam is a despot, but so are many world leaders who our goverment will happily work with as long as they cooperate. We sacrifice the fairness and equality that our founding fathers meant for us to live by for our own personal ends.
Iam very ashamed to be a US citizen right now.

Cosmos Jack
03-21-2003, 05:21 PM
Well the Russians are Eurasians and Chinese are just Asians...

I'm not a trol I'm a mean nasty oger errr :bossk:
Originally posted by griff38
Yes and that makes the US un-democratic boot stomping Tyrants. Might makes right huh? Sounds like Nazi Germany to me , and I am sure this makes tons of certain U.S. citizens very happy.
Your in tilted to your opinion. Its odd that you live in a country where you can have that opinion and you talk such crap about it. Most Iraqis don't have that right, but who cares.

If this was like Nazi Germany the government would monitor these forums assuming they would exist lol They would be knocking at your door right now to take you away.....

knock....knock..... knock......

One of the reasons I got out of the military was the fact I was there to defend your right to say that crap... Your right to burn the flag.... Your right to set at your computer all day long lol The fact the if I walked down town I got bood and hissed at for being in the military by dope heads and loosers, becouse I wasn't dealing drugs and steeling crap.

In Saudi Arabia if a cop pulls you over for drinking and driving they just shoot you. No trial no nothing they just shoot you. That's a law we need over here..... Or the Soviet Union had a policy where if they suspected people of drug dealing they would storm there house and kill them........Some cool things America needs to look into on our way to being a Fascist Dictatorship.

If anything people in this country have too many rights and they take them all for granted......

You don't like it here go to Finland.......... I'm not being rude or smart. I'm being serious if you hate this country so much and are so ashamed really go someplace else.

griff38
03-21-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
Your in tilted to your opinion. Its odd that you live in a country where you can have that opinion and you talk such crap about it. Most Iraqis don't have that right, but who cares.

If this was like Nazi Germany the government would monitor these forums assuming they would exist lol They would be knocking at your door right now to take you away.....

knock....knock..... knock......

One of the reasons I got out of the military was the fact I was there to defend your right to say that crap... Your right to burn the flag.... Your right to set at your computer all day long lol The fact the if I walked down town I got bood and hissed at for being in the military by dope heads and loosers, becouse I wasn't dealing drugs and steeling crap.

In Saudi Arabia if a cop pulls you over for drinking and driving they just shoot you. No trial no nothing they just shoot you. That's a law we need over here..... Or the Soviet Union had a policy where if they suspected people of drug dealing they would storm there house and kill them........Some cool things America needs to look into on our way to being a Fascist Dictatorship.

If anything people in this country have too many rights and they take them all for granted......

You don't like it here go to Finland.......... I'm not being rude or smart. I'm being serious if you hate this country so much and are so ashamed really go someplace else.

The fact the if I walked down town I got bood and hissed at for being in the military by dope heads and loosers, becouse I wasn't dealing drugs and steeling crap.

Dude, where do you live?

Sure the U.S. is a great place to live( not 4 u apparently) , but for some not all. And U.S. citizens get their doors kicked in all the time for dealing drugs(and shot). I mean come on you know it happens, haven't you ever seen the TV show Cops?
I never said I hate this country, in fact just the opposite. Like my kid I love her but I don't spend all day telling her she is perfect and above everyone else, I ride her little ass like a drill instructor. That way she will grow up to respect EVERYBODY not just U.S. citizens.

And on the love it or leave it logic, this isn't a movie theater it's the most powerful human force that has ever existed in the history of the universe. And when it acts irresponsibly Iam going to say something. If our goverment is doing the right thing, they can handle complaining from little old me.

Cosmos Jack
03-21-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by griff38
Dude, where do you live?
I was liveing in hawaii at the time.

Originally posted by griff38
And U.S. citizens get their doors kicked in all the time for dealing drugs(and shot). I mean come on you know it happens, haven't you ever seen the TV show Cops?[/B]

Yes they do not for being suspected, but for shooting at the cops. The Soviets didn't care if they were asleep or shooting at them they were executed on site. Guess I didn't explain that good enough..
Not that I disagree with that. Our country turns loose more Drugies every year than I care to know and lets loss more Drunk Drivers than I want to think of. They all should be drug out in the street and shot....

Cosmos Jack
03-21-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by griff38
However the majority of US citizens do NOT feel this way and like me are sick and horrified that our illegal goverment can sweep away democratic principles to further their power consolidation.
For 1. Most people in the US are behind the war. Maybe you haven't seen the polls lately. They just don't go and protest the protesters. Whitch nobody listens to by the way, because they're no better than a MOB:mad:

2. "Illegal Government" more wining over dimpled chads:rolleyes:

3. "Sweep away democratic principles"..... Witch ones the rights of Crazy Dictators to do Crazy things ......:confused:
Originally posted by griff38
I am very ashamed to be a US citizen right now. [/B]

4. Sounds like your pretty hate filled to me.:rolleyes:

Cosmos Jack
03-21-2003, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by griff38
And on the love it or leave it logic, this isn't a movie theater it's the most powerful human force that has ever existed in the history of the universe.
Oh this is cute....the universe huh.......Were are the Little Green Men when you need them :rolleyes:

To bad I wont be here when we start fighting over wether or not to fight the Little Green Men wipping our space colonies out some day.:mad:

SkinWalker
03-24-2003, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack

Here is my OPINION of EUROPE.....

All of you are afraid of the US. The US is the most powerful country in the world. It can just about do whatever it wants, where it wants, and when it wants to do it. If we force are will on Iraq what's to keep us from doing it to everybody that doesn't agree with us.

Wow. I actually share the same opinion as Jack. I wouldn't have worded it the same, but I would agree on the essence of his statement. I think much of the world does, indeed, fear the U.S.A.

Russia fought Afganistan for many years... and it took it's toll on them. They failed. We conquered this nation in a short time from ONLY THE AIR.

Iran fought Iraq for many years. It took it's toll on both sides. Neither was successful. This morning, the 3rd Infantry Division was reported to be approximately 100 miles (or was it km?) from Bagdad and closing. Saddam is probably wounded if not dead in the first day of battle.

This is a power that cannot be weilded carelessly. Otherwise it will invite disaster. Other countries will seek to undermine us or exclude us. Trust will not be forthcoming in this new age of global consumerism. You all know I was against the idea of going to war with Iraq... this was one of my reasons. Now that it has happened, I hope that we make EVERY effort to put the Iraqi people in charge of their country as soon as possible. I hope we make EVERY effort to regain / obtain confidence and trust from our world neighbors.

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
I watched the News this morning. They showed a Iraqi village were they were practically celebrating the US rolling through their town, but I guess that was all a hoax and we had guns pointing at them telling them to dance for the camera.

I don't think anyone here suggested that the Iraqis didn't want to be free of Saddam. Only that it really wasn't up to the United States to do it. That point is debatable in itself, but certainly every post I read indicated agreement that Iraq would be better off without Saddam.

griff38
03-24-2003, 08:28 AM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
I watched the News this morning. They showed a Iraqi village were they were practically celebrating the US rolling through their town, but I guess that was all a hoax and we had guns pointing at them telling them to dance for the camera
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes i am sure this has happened, but BBC & US embedded reporters are both reporting how large groups that cheerfully greet coalition troops sneer and do other things when they pass. It's clear the Iraqis have learned alot about us since last time we were there.

Cosmos Jack
03-24-2003, 09:06 AM
Well POO !!!:mad:

ShadowTemplar
03-24-2003, 10:00 AM
Certainly Europe is concerned with the behavior of the US. Especially since the current el Presidente seems to rule more based on heart and faith, than on brains and reason.

Europe is, naturally, interested in making sure that the US behaves itself. There is an obvious conflict of interest, similiar to the conflict of interest that a country will be faced with when the executive power tries to dominate the ruling and judging powers.

In effect the US has, on a global scale, taken on the roles of both executive, ruling, and judging power. This is dealt with here (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1076519#post1076519).

And, by the way, this little skirmish in Iraq was planned and put in place long before any of the evidence that will be planted in Iraq was even fabricated!

Some of you will remember this (http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm), while some of you will never have seen it before (and I have my own ideas about the demographic correlations). Notice the date and the signatures.

This (http://www.newamericancentury.org/Bushletter.htm) is a letter in which the very same think tank makes it clear that they think that el Prez should declare war, regardless of the evidence for or against. As an endnote (or rather an epitaph) concerning the integrity of this think tank, notice the entry about Israel & the PA.

Both of these have been found through www.dr.dk.

SkinWalker
03-24-2003, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
Both of these have been found through www.dr.dk.

Interesting links. I'll have to print these and read them more closely. I agree, the signatures are interesting. Particularly Rumsfeld, Armitage, Kristol, and Jeane Kirkpatrick (former UN Ambassador).

The regime change idea has certainly been in the works for a long time, much like the "Patriot" Act. Interestingly enough, this think tank doesn't seem to account for the fact that the United States has only had ONE successful regime change in its history of manipulating the governments of others: Panama. The rest are all failures.... Haiti, Cuba, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Afganistan.... well that one's still open.

ShadowTemplar
03-24-2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by SkinWalker
Interestingly enough, this think tank doesn't seem to account for the fact that the United States has only had ONE successful regime change in its history of manipulating the governments of others: Panama. The rest are all failures.... Haiti, Cuba, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Afganistan.... well that one's still open.

Na... Chile was a success, by all accounts, as it fulfilled the objectives... Only they forgot to think when they set the objectives.

griff38
03-24-2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
].

And, by the way, this little skirmish in Iraq was planned and put in place long before any of the evidence that will be planted in Iraq was even fabricated!

Some of you will remember this (http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm), while some of you will never have seen it before (and I have my own ideas about the demographic correlations). Notice the date and the signatures.

This (http://www.newamericancentury.org/Bushletter.htm) is a letter in which the very same think tank makes it clear that they think that el Prez should declare war, regardless of the evidence for or against. As an endnote (or rather an epitaph) concerning the integrity of this think tank, notice the entry about Israel & the PA.
Both of these have been found through www.dr.dk.


Nice work ST, you of course are correct. In fact this whole idea was suggested to Bush#41 during the end of the last Iraq conflict. Paul Wolfowitz drafted the 1992 Defense Planning Guidance on America's military posture toward the world that suggested the US ignore our own laws and rules regarding preemptive action without legal evidence.
Bush#41 shot it down instantly as an unAmerican unjust,way of conducting ourselves. Yes they tried to run it past Clinton who also said no way. The current Bush along with Chenney had this Paul Wolfowitz plan brought back out before he was even elected. And after 911 they stopped trying to justify it and put it into action.

You can get this from the PBS Frontline website.

frontline (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/iraq/themes/)

ShadowTemplar
03-24-2003, 10:56 AM
lol. I knew that Skin and you had been complaining about this very subject for a couple of months... So part of the credit goes to yourself. BTW: DRTV is a not a good place to start learning Danish, as, evidently, the reporters haven't.