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Mandalorian54
03-04-2003, 05:01 PM
I want to know what the christians think a christian is, and what the other people think of christians.

The truth is however that the average christian, demonination not considered, is a black native african woman.

there are more christians over in Africa then in North America or Europe or Asia or Australia.

But what I mean by what do you think a christian is, is what you think it means to be a christian, not what type of race.

But if your going to say, most christians this, or most christians that, take into mind that your talking about Africans.

None of this is directed at anyone of course, just curiouse as a christian what exactly the world thinks.


Myself, I think a christian has to believe the Bible. And must have accepted Jesus into his heart and confessed his sins to GOD, not to a priest. Because it is said in my Bible.

If something is not in the Bible, like aliens, then I do not think it is significant or required for daily life.

so what say you?

Kain
03-04-2003, 05:23 PM
i say your beliefs are gonna get you alot of hardships. especially since your saying we all hafta be like you and you other christians

personally, I think a christian is anyone who is willing to throw away 3-5 hours sitting in a building listening to some guy talk about they're going to Hell. then, they gotta give up MORE of their time handing out flyers for their churches and going downtown during Rally by the River to give us 'HEATHENS' a talkdown and then to get the mayor on us when we tell em all to piss off*BUBBLES!!*!

obi
03-04-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54

But if your going to say, most christians this, or most christians that, take into mind that your talking about Africans.



What?

:eyeraise:

Reborn Outcast
03-04-2003, 07:42 PM
:wstupid:

I did not understnad your example with the African people. When you ask "What is a Christian" do you mean race? Or.. What do you mena. I don't quite understnad.

Reborn Outcast
03-04-2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by MydnightPsion
personally, I think a christian is anyone who is willing to throw away 3-5 hours sitting in a building listening to some guy talk about they're going to Hell. then, they gotta give up MORE of their time handing out flyers for their churches and going downtown during Rally by the River to give us 'HEATHENS' a talkdown and then to get the mayor on us when we tell em all to piss off*BUBBLES!!*!

You are quite misinformed. What about those people that risk their lives trying to spread a message that they believe in? What about those who are always there for someone when they need it and those who have a steadfast love for God. Don't group ALL Christians into a lump like that for that is only about 5% true. Those Christians who hand out flyers should NOT be doing that, no matter what they say.

Mandalorian54
03-04-2003, 08:17 PM
Okay, the deal with the africans: There are more christians in africa then in north america. or any other country.

I don't know how to explain that more clearly, could you explain more clearly what you don't understand?

And I don't know about you but I've never handed out a flyer for christianity in my life. I have delivered flyers for a water bottling company.

It doesn't matter weather your a christian or not, you have to give up your time. You give your time to video games, or tv, you give your time to your girl freind(s), you give time to school, work, evrything.

I sit in a building listning to some guy talk about hell, way less than you sit in a building and listn to a guy talk about math and science. (assuming your a student)

And I really don't like rallies. Many christians do, but I can't stand gospel worship. Worship is your lifestyle, singing is a form of worship, but just one form.

As for christian activites I go to christian concerts, only Punk and Rock though, and youth groop, and 'fun activites'. For example, this friday I and my youth groop and some other christian youth groops are going to Laser Quest for an all night game thing.

Well christians are sooooo boring...... bla bla bla.

I mean this in a nice way of course, please don't take it wrong, I'm not flaming.

but I am glad you shared that MydnightPsion.

take MydnightPsion his reply for example Obi wan, that's exactly what kind of an answer I was looking for.

keepim comin

Kain
03-04-2003, 08:31 PM
quote:Mandalorinan54
I sit in a building listning to some guy talk about hell, way less than you sit in a building and listn to a guy talk about math and science.

i sit in school because its either that or jail. you sit in church based on your free will to listen to the pastor talk about blind faith. there is a world of difference

Mandalorian54
03-04-2003, 08:41 PM
so if you could you would live on the street without an education unable to get a job and afford a home or a car?

people give thier time to lots of things cause they want to, they find it benaficial or entertaining.

And hearing a preacher explain GOD's word on a regular basis helps christians live a better life. Like going to school helps people get Jobs.

munik
03-04-2003, 08:46 PM
Just because you went to highschool that doesn't make you educated. If you did not attend highschool, that does not make you uneducated.

I think you made up the african thing. Maybe you could give us a source, or something to back that up.

Kain
03-04-2003, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
so if you could you would live on the street without an education unable to get a job and afford a home or a car?

people give thier time to lots of things cause they want to, they find it benaficial or entertaining.

And hearing a preacher explain GOD's word on a regular basis helps christians live a better life. Like going to school helps people get Jobs.

for one, my parents tought me how to read before i started school, so no help there. after that, the only thing i learned from school is that humans as a whole are self destructive, and from then until my freshman year of highschool, i devulged whatever i could from books, thus making teaching me pointless, because i often know more than the teacher on a subject*and my senior english teacher admitted to me knowing more than him on a subject*. so yes, if it was up to me, i wouldn't goto school. i'd sit in a library and teach myself.

ShockV1.89
03-04-2003, 09:49 PM
If something is not in the Bible, like aliens, then I do not think it is significant or required for daily life.

*sighs, walks out of the thread shaking his head in utter and complete disgust*

shukrallah
03-04-2003, 09:58 PM
1st i want to start by saying the only reason we go to school in America, dont know about other countries, is so we get jobs and pay taxes.... it the truth....lol...really


ok...now, a christian is a follower of Christ, but there is a lot more to it than that. first u have to accept Jesus into your life as your savior, then u recieve the Holy Spirit, then you have to get baptized, ok yeah anyone can do that, but, thats the point....the bible says anyone who asks Jesus into their lives and truly means it, will receive, that was in my own words.....

about what you said mydnightpsion, i only go to church about 2 1/2 hours on sunday. then we have a bible study during the week, God requires 10% percent of everything he gives us(or something like that....money and time anyways) so im supposed to spend about 2 hours and 40 minutes with God a day, i think, its been a while since i did the math. *i got to admit i dont:( *

The only reason any of us are here is to worship God, but satan screwed that up, so he made humans, and adam and eve screwed that up..... so anyways, thats why we are here, the job of a christian is to spred God's word, to tell people there is a new hope, Jesus Christ.

So i sort of explained what i think a christian is above....im christian, and i will do my job.

Mandalorian54
03-04-2003, 10:19 PM
oh come on the only thing you leaned in school is that humans as a whole are self destructive. Please spare me the nonsense.

be realistic, theres no need to be retarted.

evryone learns the parts of speach, functions of words, defenitions, spelling, math, science, forein launguages like french and spanish, the list goes on.

And if not learning anything in school doesn't mean uneducated, than we don't have the same deffinition of uneducated.

your not born able to do algebra and geometry, you have to be tought it, and withought a colloge or university degree you can't get a decent job.

most full time jobs require at least a highschool diploma.

I suppose you'll just make a liveing selling drugs then?:rolleyes:

I hope this is not offensive and considered flameing.

shukrallah
03-04-2003, 10:34 PM
i was joking dude.....:D

Mandalorian54
03-04-2003, 10:41 PM
no I wasn't talking about you. MydnightPsion .

ET Warrior
03-04-2003, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
oh come on the only thing you leaned in school is that humans as a whole are self destructive. Please spare me the nonsense.

be realistic, theres no need to be retarted.

He was saying that he can teach himself more than school can teach him. And for some people it's quite true that they can easily teach themselves things. I actually taught myself to read because i wanted to play video games that had scrolling text.

But there is a BIG difference between spending time in school and spending time in church. Because if you're a student christian you spend time doing BOTH. And since you seem so hellbent on pushing your beliefs upon everyone here i'm guessing you were a student christian. Thusly, your argument holds no water.

Another thing to ponder on is, do you have FUN at church? I goto church every other week about, and i for sure do not have fun. I dont hate it, sometime i enjoy the sermon and think that it's a really good message. But fun? no. And most things that people do in their spare times, if they're not related to making themselves a functioning member of society are intended to entertain them.

But if your going to say, most christians this, or most christians that, take into mind that your talking about Africans.
Yes.....that makes.....no sense atall..........

ShockV1.89
03-04-2003, 10:52 PM
oh come on the only thing you leaned in school is that humans as a whole are self destructive. Please spare me the nonsense.

be realistic, theres no need to be retarted.

Dude, how the hell is that NOT flaming? :mad: You're really starting to annoy me here, man... :disaprove

Kain
03-04-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
oh come on the only thing you leaned in school is that humans as a whole are self destructive. Please spare me the nonsense.

be realistic, theres no need to be retarted.

evryone learns the parts of speach, functions of words, defenitions, spelling, math, science, forein launguages like french and spanish, the list goes on.

And if not learning anything in school doesn't mean uneducated, than we don't have the same deffinition of uneducated.

your not born able to do algebra and geometry, you have to be tought it, and withought a colloge or university degree you can't get a decent job.

most full time jobs require at least a highschool diploma.

I suppose you'll just make a liveing selling drugs then?:rolleyes:

I hope this is not offensive and considered flameing.

nonsense? retarted? you *insert worst insult that won't get me ban*. you little self righteous preppy holy crusader thought you were God's gift to the world flamer.
Anyone can learn the concepts of speech from listening to people talk. How do you think babies learn. Durrrrr...
Please, enlighten us. What does uneducated mean? Because for me uneducated is simply a word used by teachers used to insult students who don't try in that class and by callus *******s who have nothing better to do but talk about how they're better than everyone else.
Cant get a decent job without a diploma? how about the military? Durrrr...
Selling drugs? Oh you mean those things that I dont do anymore because one bad buzz lasted a bit too long? If need be, sure I'll sell drugs. What the hell if I'm gettin paid.
And yes, it is flaming.

edit: sorry, forgot I probably should pm'd this, eh?

munik
03-05-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
oh come on the only thing you leaned in school is that humans as a whole are self destructive. Please spare me the nonsense.

be realistic, theres no need to be retarted.

evryone learns the parts of speach, functions of words, defenitions, spelling, math, science, forein launguages like french and spanish, the list goes on.

And if not learning anything in school doesn't mean uneducated, than we don't have the same deffinition of uneducated.

your not born able to do algebra and geometry, you have to be tought it, and withought a colloge or university degree you can't get a decent job.

most full time jobs require at least a highschool diploma.

I suppose you'll just make a liveing selling drugs then?:rolleyes:

I hope this is not offensive and considered flameing.
You're a fruit. I reckon one day you'll step out from under the shelter of your parents and into the real world, then maybe all your self righteous ideologies will shatter. Hopefully then you will be able to reformulate a realistic view of the world, one that isn't so self centered and ignorant.

But for now, go ahead and spout your nonsense. Get it out while you still can, when you're young enough to believe it and young enough not to get beat for it.

wassup
03-05-2003, 12:25 AM
Boy do I love Senate Chambers now...If this stuff was still in the Swamp there would be nobody left...cause everyone would be sick of all this pointless bickering.

Mandalorian, I acknowledge your opinions, and I really don't think it was your fault. You came here wanted to start a discussion and it turned into a holy war. I think you might overstated and offended some people a little in your other thread and people (like MydnightPrison) just assumed you always carried around this ignorant, self-centered attitude.

I think everyone needs to broaden their perceptions and think about everyone's opinions before replying what comes to your mind first. Sure, Mandalorian may seem a little uninformed about some things, so why not try to inform him, in a nice, mature way? Why not state your opinions in a reasonable, logical, and polite way? Must I provide an example?!? Unless nobody can read, this forum is for discussion, not bickering and endless arguements that degrade this thread.

If you people are not mature enough to act your age, then I pity you...:rolleyes:

BigTeddyPaul
03-05-2003, 05:04 AM
Where to begin where to begin

1. People can teach themselves stuff. You do not have to go to a HS or a university and get a degree to make something of yourself. My grandfather never graduated HS until he was 35 becuase he wanted to. He is now a retired multi multi multi millionare. My father does not have a single degree in computers (English and History) and he now makes about 85,000 as a web desiner for companies.

I myself learned practically nothing through HS. I took 2 years of French. 4 years latter all I know how to say is Ou a la fromage? which means where is the cheese? I don't even know if fromage is a M or F noun so that la might be a le. I went from a public to a private Christian school because the people in HS were STUPID. They knew nothing and I mean nothing. They at least kept going in hopes of getting that degree. When I went to the Christian school it was soooo easy. The only thing I learned was in Bible class because I didn't know everything from the Bible as opposed to the math book or chemistry or history.

The school I went to was a church and a school in one. School had less than 700 people k-12 and it just so happens that the pastor's daughter was in my graduating class. When we went on our Senior trip we all got in front of eachoerh (about 85 of us) and talked about whatever. She said, "I am just thankful that my great grandfather, grandfather, and father devoted their lives to Christ so I could be blessed unlike you all." This enraged most of us "poorer" people especially me because when my families income was 20,000 dollars (mother, sister, myself) and we were on government help we still tithed to bleach her damn blond hair. It was us who blessed her not her grand pappy (more to the story but I will continue).

2. Defenition of a Christian in most circles is one who accepts Jesus Christ into your heart as your personal savior. That is basically it. You don't even have to follow the Bible as long as you belive in this basic fact.

3. In regards to your African American comments about them being all Chrisitans the answer is quite simple. They have very little and the only thing they can hope for is something better in the next life. That is why blacks in America centuries ago turned to the white man's religion because they were all slaves, worked 18 hours a day, and could die at any time with no rights what so ever. The reason why the white man came to the America's was to be freed of religious persecution. He worked hard at "conquering" the land that their Lord had given them. Now with all our sciences and luxeries we don't rely on God as much as we used to because we feel we don't need him anymore to survive in this world.

4 Genesis 6:1-4

"When men began to increase on earth and daughters were born to them, the divine beings saw how beautiful the daughters of men were and they took wives from among those that pleased them. The Lord said, "My breath shall not abide in man forever, since he too is flesh; let the days allowed him be one hundred and twenty years." It was then, and later too, that the Nephilim appeared on earth - when the divine beings cohabited with the daughters of men, who bore them offspring. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown."

This comes from the beginning of Chapter 6 which as you can see talks about gods having sex with people. Some people belive these gods could be aliens.

5. Finally I noticed that you said you only believe in the Bible and what is in there. My question is, which I have pointed out many times before, is what exactly is the Bible? The Bible today is not what the Bible was years ago. A while ago a group of the most respected Bible scholars got together and went through all possile godly texts and determined whether they were in fact inspired by God or not. That is how we have the current Bible. Many famous spiritual leaders didn't have the same texts we have. Ever heard of Maccabees 1st or 2nd? What about The Prayer of Manasseh? The Widom of Solomon? Well I will tell you for a fact that many people for a long time believed in them and some still do. Apocrypha is only apocrypha now because of what some men said.

Whew that took a lot to say.

BigTeddyPaul

C'jais
03-05-2003, 06:35 AM
To close?

Or not to close?

The crowd decides.

ShockV1.89
03-05-2003, 06:40 AM
Close it. This thread is Mandalorians excuse to insult anyone who he cant convince to be a christian.

He's got me pissed now. Damn...

Pnut_Man
03-05-2003, 04:38 PM
I've said this before "and i'll say it again", the admins or whoever has the power should go and post a sticky thread at the top of the Senate Chambers. The sticky thread would speak of all the subjects which have been banned from the senate chambers because they provoke immature arguements and confrontation. Sure people have the right to freedom of speech, it just gets me sick when they overuse it to bash another person's philosphies..

obi
03-05-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by C'jais
To close?

Or not to close?

The crowd decides.

I was sort of thinking that myself......

I read some insults by a few people earlier. Don't do it again, or i will ban you.


Have a nice day :)

Kain
03-05-2003, 11:31 PM
Tempers were flaring. I'll take responsibility. But its true. Mandalorian does seem to use this to post his ideals on non-Christians and how heathinistic they are.

That and the forum got pretty much off topic reeeeeally quick...

quote:wassap
people (like MydnightPrison) just assumed you always carried around this ignorant, self-centered attitude.

A: Its Psion...
B: He is carrying that attitude. He believes that he's the ultimo-human and anyone disagreeing with him is ignorant or 'uneducated' as he posted before.

wassup
03-06-2003, 02:45 AM
OK, he was a little pushy-wushy in his other thread, but he got bashed down there. So maybe he thought it through, and came back trying to start a legimate, mature topic, but found that he had already gained a reputation of being a "all-knowing ignorant superhuman."

All I'm saying is give everyone a chance to express themselves before bashing them. (this goes for everyone)

I mean, all he wanted to do was start a discussion on what everyone thinks a Christian is, and you start with this quote:

i say your beliefs are gonna get you alot of hardships. especially since your saying we all hafta be like you and you other christians

I mean, he didn't really push anyone in his first post, he just wanted to start a discussion, and here you are flaming him. IMO, you should treat every thread as seperate from others, with the attitude and reputation of the person being determined by what THEY say in that particular thread. Dont carry hate around, it gets too heavy with time...

*edit* Oh ya and MP sorry for the misspelling of your name, it was late at night and I just glanced at your name, thought it said MidNightPrison...my bad :o

Mandalorian54
03-06-2003, 08:55 PM
all right I won't use the word retarted in a name calling way, sory I didn't know people could get offended so easily, it was acctually inteded in more of as playfull tease than a flam.

I'm not even offended by what I got back in return, if that's a holy war then I have hell on earth evry day with my brothers.

nuff of this flaming though I don't want this thread to get locked.

educated(meaning having been tought stuff, in the simplest words I can think of)

I would compare someone who has gone to school and hence educated to some one who is self taught like:

an Indian over in North America(uneducated) to an English settler.

in the 1600s-1700s time span.

is this a simple enough example. I'm kinda starting to forget where we started cuz it's just gone nowhere verry fast.

And I don't think I'm an all knowing anything.:rolleyes:

And I can't remember how the whole Psion being ignorant thing started.

But it's not cuz you disagree with me. I find it hard to believe how you came up with that, but I don't want twenty people expalaing in there own words how Psion came up with it. I wouldn't mind Psion explaining it himself, but I don't really care it's not that important.

Let's solve this and cool down shall we, are there any more problems which need to be resolved?

BigTeddyPaul
03-06-2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
an Indian over in North America(uneducated) to an English settler.

in the 1600s-1700s time span.

Umm what? I didn't get that.

It depends on what you mean by educated and uneducated. The Indians were educated in what they needed to be. They knew their land, they knew how to make medecine, they had their own religion, they were farmers and hunters. I don't get what more they needed to be educated about? Also why were settlers so educated? They made boats and maps and stuff but that was only because they wanted wealth and land. The Indians had no need for this and therefore didn't spend time into inventing HUGE boats.

It all depends on what education you would prefer.

BigTeddyPaul

ET Warrior
03-07-2003, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
so if you could you would live on the street without an education unable to get a job and afford a home or a car?

Being uneducated does not mean you will be without work and without money, and vice versa.

We have a friend of the family who barely has a high school education and he is really really rich. He doesn't even need a high shcool education for his job...he grows grass. He has a turf farm and he's supplied turf to places like Mile High Stadium (where the Colorado Rockies play) and Mile High Field.

There are also people who go to college, get their degree, but they end up in a very competitive field and can't get a job.

And you can always get a job without a high school education. It probably won't be a GREAT job, but somebody always needs people for crappy jobs.

BigTeddyPaul
03-07-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by ET Warrior
Being uneducated does not mean you will be without work and without money, and vice versa.

We have a friend of the family who barely has a high school education and he is really really rich. He doesn't even need a high shcool education for his job...he grows grass. He has a turf farm and he's supplied turf to places like Mile High Stadium (where the Colorado Rockies play) and Mile High Field.

There are also people who go to college, get their degree, but they end up in a very competitive field and can't get a job.

And you can always get a job without a high school education. It probably won't be a GREAT job, but somebody always needs people for crappy jobs.

Preach it borther. Goes back to my grandfather never completed HS until much later, went into the pest control business, ran a successful business for years, and is now a retired multi multi millionare. My father has degrees in history and english but is a web designer who has NEVER taken a class in web designing. He is self taught and is good at it.


I wonder what type of degree it takes to run the zamboni at the Pepsi Arena (it is Pepsi that the Avs play at right?).

BigTeddyPaul

ET Warrior
03-07-2003, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by BigTeddyPaul
I wonder what type of degree it takes to run the zamboni at the Pepsi Arena (it is Pepsi that the Avs play at right?).

BigTeddyPaul

It's the Pepsi Center, but close enough....;)

I also wonder how much a zamboni driver gets paid.....i would like that job, just so i could drive the zamboni...that would be freakin neat.

Mandalorian54
03-09-2003, 08:33 PM
I see we all have very different oppionons on what educated means, so can we drop that subject?

Let's get back to the topic, what does it mean to be a Christian?

ET Warrior
03-10-2003, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
what does it mean to be a Christian?

Ummmm......to believe in Christ?

BigTeddyPaul
03-10-2003, 12:24 AM
That is the first step. Buddhists believe that Jesus existed but not that he is God's child. He is more of a prophet to most other religions if they recognize him at all.

If I am wrong about the Buddhist part please say so. I am not learned enough in the subject to always be 100% right about it.

BigTeddyPaul

ET Warrior
03-10-2003, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by BigTeddyPaul
That is the first step. Buddhists believe that Jesus existed but not that he is God's child. He is more of a prophet to most other religions if they recognize him at all.

If I am wrong about the Buddhist part please say so. I am not learned enough in the subject to always be 100% right about it.

BigTeddyPaul

well you better GET learned enought to be 100% right ALL the time......i EXPECT it of you!!!!!:p

C'jais
03-10-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by BigTeddyPaul
That is the first step. Buddhists believe that Jesus existed but not that he is God's child. He is more of a prophet to most other religions if they recognize him at all.

How I understood Buddhism, was that they do acknowledge gods, but they regard an eternity in heaven as something pointless.

The goal is to reach Nirvana, not indulge yourself by the side of your god. You must break the cycle of reincarnation, not make it stand still.

BTW, I think it was (Paul) who adressed something about Buddhists trying not to have desires. The way I understood it, while they view desires as harm in itself, they're also aware of how impossible it is to live without desires, so they strive to avoid harmful desires. The moment a desire becomes harmful to another person (don't ask me how they judge that), is the moment they'll try to quench it.

I could be wrong, though.

-C'

ShadowTemplar
03-12-2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
What about those people that risk their lives trying to spread a message that they believe in?

Yeees, what about them? Well in any other profession they'd be called 'frauds' at the toss of a hand, for not being able to procure any kind of documentation for their beliefs. One of the things that really pisses me off about religion is that it seems to grant immunity to such accusations, no matter how valid they are.

If someone posts an article in a Physics journal that's full of mumbo-jumbo that's utterly undocumentable, he gets loads of flak from his colleagues.

If someone does the same in a Theology journal, he gets the fullest appreciation from his peers (if he said the 'right' things, if he said something that goes against the doctrine, he'd get flakked, regardless of the documentation he could supply).

The rules of rationalism and logic prohibit belief. If people would just stick to those, there would be rather fewer wars, famines, ect.

obi
03-12-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar

there would be rather fewer wars, famines, ect.

Fewer famines? Isn't a famine caused by lack of rainfall or some other needed natural event? I don't see how no religion would help get rid of famines......

But you do have a point about less wars. The people over there in the middle-east have been at eachother's throats because they think their beliefs are better.

Osama Ben Laden's crew believes they will get into Heaven by killing christians.


No need to say more, religion does play an important part in many conflicts.

Mandalorian54
03-16-2003, 02:40 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
What about those people that risk their lives trying to spread a message that they believe in?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yeees, what about them? Well in any other profession they'd be called 'frauds' at the toss of a hand, for not being able to procure any kind of documentation for their beliefs. One of the things that really pisses me off about religion is that it seems to grant immunity to such accusations, no matter how valid they are.

If someone posts an article in a Physics journal that's full of mumbo-jumbo that's utterly undocumentable, he gets loads of flak from his colleagues.

If someone does the same in a Theology journal, he gets the fullest appreciation from his peers (if he said the 'right' things, if he said something that goes against the doctrine, he'd get flakked, regardless of the documentation he could supply).

The rules of rationalism and logic prohibit belief. If people would just stick to those, there would be rather fewer wars, famines, ect.


"Yeees, what about them? Well in any other profession they'd be called 'frauds' at the toss of a hand, for not being able to procure any kind of documentation for their beliefs. One of the things that really pisses me off about religion is that it seems to grant immunity to such accusations, no matter how valid they are."

not neccisarily, it depends on the individual case.
And Bible scolars have much historical and scientific proof.

there is more proof that the world is so complex it could not exist by any means other than the creation by a GOD.

then that the world was created by the collision of meteors one of which had a cell on it, and the creation of civilization.

nevermind the unexplainable problem of where the first cell, meteor's, or starts came form.

No evolutionist has any grounds to claim that anything about evolution has any proof.

this they will admit. At least the ones that get paid to be evolutionists.

mabee some of the children who are convinced it is true because thier teacher at school said so in a convincing way and they are unable to see through those week statements.



The above is a very strong challenge. Go ahead and claim you have proof because of carbond dating(which was proven false more times then has been counted) or whatever "scientific" theorys you use. But I know it is not FACT. There is not FACT when it comes to evolution.

Only the infinitely imposible posibuility. which is ridiculouse. The only reason given me by evolutionists for thier beliefs is that they don't want to believe That they have to live thier lives by rules.

And if that's the case, just believe nothing. What's the point of believing evolution?

it's science all right, Schience Fiction!!!

ShockV1.89
03-16-2003, 02:54 AM
Do you type with your nose?

BigTeddyPaul
03-16-2003, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
[Bnot neccisarily, it depends on the individual case.
And Bible scolars have much historical and scientific proof.

there is more proof that the world is so complex it could not exist by any means other than the creation by a GOD.

then that the world was created by the collision of meteors one of which had a cell on it, and the creation of civilization.

nevermind the unexplainable problem of where the first cell, meteor's, or starts came form.

No evolutionist has any grounds to claim that anything about evolution has any proof.

this they will admit. At least the ones that get paid to be evolutionists.

mabee some of the children who are convinced it is true because thier teacher at school said so in a convincing way and they are unable to see through those week statements.



The above is a very strong challenge. Go ahead and claim you have proof because of carbond dating(which was proven false more times then has been counted) or whatever "scientific" theorys you use. But I know it is not FACT. There is not FACT when it comes to evolution.

Only the infinitely imposible posibuility. which is ridiculouse. The only reason given me by evolutionists for thier beliefs is that they don't want to believe That they have to live thier lives by rules.

And if that's the case, just believe nothing. What's the point of believing evolution?

it's science all right, Schience Fiction!!! [/B]

I am posting words you do not know who to spell:

1. Science
2. Impossible
3. Possibility
4. Ridiculous
5. Theories
6. Carbon
7. Their
8. Scholars
9. Necessarily
10. Maybe
11. Stars

Your nose. Funny man.

Where is your studies that show that science has proven that it is more likely some "thing" created life and the earth etc as opposed to meteors and starts.

If no one has any evolutionary cause to believe in evolution then why do we have tailbones? So far they have been proven to do nothing but sideline my high school quarterback for his junior year. Why are there so many variations of insects and plants? Could it be they adapted and evolved?

Maybe your teacher claimed at your school or church that there is no way that evolution can take place and you believed him based on weak evidence.

Carbon dating is not 100% accurate but it is the best way to determine how old something is around as far as I know.

"Only the infinitely imposible posibuility. which is ridiculouse."
You mean like believing in a God who created everything because he told mortals and they wrote it down?

"The only reason given me by evolutionists for thier beliefs is that they don't want to believe That they have to live thier lives by rules."
What the hell are you talking about? What rules? Humans are natuarlly curious and try to prove something and if there was something that proved evolution takes place I would want to know about it.

Again good points.

BigTeddyPaul

ShadowTemplar
03-24-2003, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13
Fewer famines? Isn't a famine caused by lack of rainfall or some other needed natural event? I don't see how no religion would help get rid of famines......

Aah. Famine. An ever interesting topic that almost deserves a thread of its own. But the short answer is no. Famine is often a symptom, rather than the actual problem (well, it is a problem, mind, just not the problem). The actual problem could be underdevelopment, poor infrastructure, and just about any other problem of governing. But most often it is due to overpopulation.

Many developing countries have problems with famines and overpopulation. The two are linked, and so in most places, even where disaster has not already struck, regional government tries to amend the overpopulation problem. Part of this is reducing the birth rate. And what do you think stands in the way of that? Right in one: Religion.

China, which sensibly has abolished religion (though that's possibly the only sensible thing they've done), is infact the only developing country that doesn't have issues with local religious leaders over the issue of birth control (there might be a few other countries aswell, but you get the picture).

So I think that it is fair to say that religion causes famine.

Madnelorian: In case you need to be reminded of the facts, we have an entire thread dedicated to gunning down such pathetic boasts... (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89510&perpage=40&pagenumber=1)

Now it's been a while since I've read the entire thread, but there are 8 pages, and your arguements are typical of people who don't even have a clue as to what evolution is, so there's a fairly great probability that you'll find your answers there... Unless you decide to keep ranting on regardless of the facts.

obi
03-24-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar


So I think that it is fair to say that religion causes famine.



Ah, good explanation. ;)

Izzy
04-22-2003, 09:56 PM
But if a religious person, (probably a Christian) prays to God for rain, rain will come, because God is a loving and powerful God!

ShockV1.89
04-22-2003, 10:05 PM
:confused:

BigTeddyPaul
04-22-2003, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Izzy
But if a religious person, (probably a Christian) prays to God for rain, rain will come, because God is a loving and powerful God!

Rain will come because of conensation, atmospheric thing-a-ma-bobs, and other stuff which I don't know because I know next to nothing about this. (Sun-->heat-->wind + geographical elements--> vapor --> cloud absorbtion-->something else--> rain.

Don't tempt God. God has the power to say yes and no just like us. One of the temptations that the Devil used against Jesus was to jump off a high place and the angels would save Him.

If I pray for the Blues to win the Stanley Cup and ET Warrior prays for the Avs to win does that mean that God does not love me or chooses to ignore me or we have different gods or what. Your statement is flawed.

BigTeddyPaul

ShockV1.89
04-23-2003, 06:08 AM
I have a feeling he was joking.... :confused:

Izzy
04-23-2003, 12:09 PM
I see your point BigTeddyPaul.

But I am talking about a black african woman in a drought stricken area. She would not be tempting God in any way, she would be asking for water to survive, and it is no wrong to ask God for things, is it? If this women lives for God and believes in him, he will most probably send rain. He will set your long complex cycle going so rain will reach the black women who asked from her heart some water so she (and possibly family) can survive.

C'jais
04-23-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Izzy
I see your point BigTeddyPaul.

But I am talking about a black african woman in a drought stricken area. She would not be tempting God in any way, she would be asking for water to survive, and it is no wrong to ask God for things, is it? If this women lives for God and believes in him, he will most probably send rain. He will set your long complex cycle going so rain will reach the black women who asked from her heart some water so she (and possibly family) can survive.

But at the same time, that complex rain cycle which God apparenly sets in motion all by himself, will ensure that a draught will occur in India. Over there, it'll kill around a 100 kids a month.

Now, are Indians lesser humans to God? Or is it because they're not Christians?

Either way, this is a horrible solution, and only proves why prayer can't work.

BigTeddyPaul
04-23-2003, 08:42 PM
I am not stating anything about prayer besides the fact that it can be answered with a no. Lots of people have died when their lives were threatened. That is the price we pay for sin.

Sin is the reason we die. We were not officially dying until the apple was eaten. The reason was because sin is negative and anything that is negative to our body causes it to die a little. This is all in a nutshell mind you.

Death is no reason for God to do something. If so we would not have martyrs.

BigTeddyPaul

Izzy
04-24-2003, 12:32 AM
C'jais, have you heard of miracles? There are such things...some happenings can be unaccounted for! God can assure there is no draught in India, or whatever, he is the Almightly God, and can summon and control all on Earth...
BigTeddyPaul, I totally agree with you, sin is what kills people, gradually over time. I am just saying God can extend peoples lives, he will not let them live for ever...thats whats Heaven is for (can't wait to get there...!)

ShockV1.89
04-24-2003, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Izzy
C'jais, have you heard of miracles? There are such things...some happenings can be unaccounted for! God can assure there is no draught in India, or whatever, he is the Almightly God, and can summon and control all on Earth...


God gapping. If we cant readily explain it or understand it, lets attribute it to God.

I have to wonder to myself how much further we'd be as a society if people never God gapped...

Izzy
04-24-2003, 06:19 AM
Its not God gapping. Technically, God is in control of everything...but by unexplainable miracles...Okay, my friends Dad, was at a prayer group. One of the members had lost one of her legs, it had been amputated because a tree fell on it. Well, this group of full on Christians living for God, prayed for this lady, for a new leg, and it grew back right before their eyes! It sounds pretty impossible, but it DID happen, trust me.
Now is that, or is that not a miracle from God?
I rest my case.

BigTeddyPaul
04-24-2003, 06:31 AM
I will tell you what that is it is BS. Legs do not grow back. Even Jesus used severed parts of the body to place back.

I do believe in the mind overcoming obscene obstacles like telling a person you are going to poke them with a lite cigarette thus causing a burn mark. The mind then has the potential to create a burn where the spot was that was poked by the pencil (pencil took the place of the cigarette). Mind has the potential to do great things to the body but in no way can it regenerate lost body parts.

Reminds me of the Monty Python sketch of the Brittish army in Africa against the Zulus where a "tiger" came in the middle of the night and ate an officer's leg. Funny as hell because he kept asking when it would grow back.

If what you said was true then all the pope's peeps would be fine and Mother Teressas people would not be poor and starving and all the other ailments. Does that mean the the millions/billions of people who pray for no one to die in the Iraq invasion are not entitled to a miracle even though I am sure those same people who prayed for the leg prayed about the War.

BigTeddyPaul

Homuncul
04-24-2003, 07:19 AM
Well, this group of full on Christians living for God, prayed for this lady, for a new leg, and it grew back right before their eyes! It sounds pretty impossible, but it DID happen, trust me.

Why again it is God who did it? Because it looks like miracle. Seeing is not believing any more. Face it. Maybe it's a highly improbable situation but it can be explained without some stucked up omnimpotent oldman from the Bible.
Miracle is just a word that stubborn christians use for defining the unexplainable. Is there actually a proof for miracle?
A so-called religious trance might be the cause of such cellular activity which resulted in extreme cell regeneration and nothing more. Remember yoga, they can lower their body tempetrature, stop heart bitting. But trance actually has nothing to do with even word "religious" but more to human's extreme awareness
It may be even mutation. Highly unprobable but still possible.

Why still a miracle by Christian God? If there are so many reasons for not concerning him in these matters

BigTeddyPaul
04-24-2003, 02:51 PM
People who have faith in God believe everything is attributed to him whether it is a death, grades on papers, happiness in love, etc. God has a plan and all that. So when freaky deaky things happen believers attribute it to God. Better to have it from God than some abnormal manipulation of the mind.

The leg thing is still BS because if it was true we would have the physician on all the news and everyone would know about it. It would be famous.

I think that answers your question.

BigTeddyPaul

ShockV1.89
04-24-2003, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Izzy
It sounds pretty impossible, but it DID happen, trust me.


No.

Izzy
04-24-2003, 11:13 PM
Yes.



(sorry if this is considered spamming)

munik
04-24-2003, 11:18 PM
You are trolling, that's it. Doubt anyone would call it spam, more like crap.

Kain
04-24-2003, 11:35 PM
well, there was this one time when we hypnotized our dog who got nutered and when we told the dog that it grew back, it did:rolleyes:

and then we mass hypnotized people in New York into thinking George W. was actually Bill Clinton and then George W. got a blow job from an intern and started playing the saxaphone:rolleyes:

Homuncul
04-25-2003, 03:55 AM
People who have faith in God believe everything is attributed to him whether it is a death, grades on papers, happiness in love, etc. God has a plan and all that. So when freaky deaky things happen believers attribute it to God. Better to have it from God than some abnormal manipulation of the mind.

Reality doesn't care about you being better, it puts you to the test with its natural selection. The Same would have done God if he was in place (which is not). Do you think he would have been that limited to put us in his divine plan which is really a labyrinth with many blind leads leading to no exit. It's a test for your faith. Do you want to be a human without so-called free will with high level ability (as you put it)? Or you have treat God as not only attracter of unexplainable

The leg thing is still BS because if it was true we would have the physician on all the news and everyone would know about it. It would be famous.

Why don't people run with superstring theory and there's none in the streets talking about it?. Because it's not proven and can not even make predictions. And scientists are already fed with such dirt that it's hard for them to except such things without implicit proof. They don't recognize it to be a studying material. And if you want to see those famous physicians read yellow paper, there's a lot of it there.

Why do you still want to put completeness in your life? Stop trying

BigTeddyPaul
04-25-2003, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by Homuncul
Why don't people run with superstring theory and there's none in the streets talking about it?. Because it's not proven and can not even make predictions. And scientists are already fed with such dirt that it's hard for them to except such things without implicit proof. They don't recognize it to be a studying material. And if you want to see those famous physicians read yellow paper, there's a lot of it there.

Why do you still want to put completeness in your life? Stop trying

If the leg thing was true it seems rather easy to prove. Amputated was used which means a surgery. You would have records and probably pictures. Fair enough. Didn't happen.

And who wants their life to be complete? Seems rather boring to me if you have everything. My life is far from complete and I like it that way. This stuff is becoming stupid and unless there is some more valid arguments I will stop posting here.

BigTeddyPaul

Izzy
04-25-2003, 10:06 AM
Who on this thread has read the bible? All those miracles happened, so why can't some in this era?

C'jais
04-25-2003, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by Izzy
Who on this thread has read the bible? All those miracles happened

How do you know?

Trust me, a leg cannot "grow back". It just can't. If there was a single case where it did, it'd be all over the science mags, tabloids and general newspapers. It hasn't happened.

Homuncul
04-28-2003, 05:24 AM
Posted by BigTeddyPaul
And who wants their life to be complete? Seems rather boring to me if you have everything. My life is far from complete and I like it that way. This stuff is becoming stupid and unless there is some more valid arguments I will stop posting here.

It's not the complete that I want. Everyone knows that what's perfect and complete doesn't matter it is all static thing. All that matter is dynamic, our movement towards perfection and completeness which would never stop. People move that line unequally some faster some slower. You're contradicting with yourself.
First of all you came here for some reason. To see what people talk. This way or another You took the knowledge of it. And more you found here something that moved you to react which is a dynamic. You chose to answer a post. You improve yourself so it's actually useless to talk about it.
So in sub-conscious you don't like it that way. And if you now answer me you only prove yourself wrong on your consious rational level. So keep moving


Posted by C'jais
Trust me, a leg cannot "grow back". It just can't. If there was a single case where it did, it'd be all over the science mags, tabloids and general newspapers. It hasn't happened.

"It can't grow back because it just can't" is somehow circular. And there're thousands of such examples in pulp fiction (mutants, aliens etc.). Of course it's highly unprobable but I actually explained before how it could happen. I thought we were demytholising miracles and not the inadequate work of mass media. Of course there are strange things in our world (of course not miracles) which can be explained (I believe) by paying close attention to them and not only by yellow press.
I believe if there was really something that could be very closly defined as miracle would only be due to our limited perception only of space-time (with time only in one direction)

BigTeddyPaul
04-28-2003, 06:23 AM
I improve myself by answering posts? Ummm okay. And it is nice to tell me to keep moving when I said unless there was some better material in here I would not post.

BigTeddyPaul

Izzy
04-28-2003, 07:51 AM
Now I don't have problem if you people do not believe in God, but what will happen when you die? Will everything go on just like it was before you were concieved? Maybe, but your souls will go to hell (don't mean to be harsh, though it is true). God is a kind and loving God, and one way he shows his love is through miracles.

Quote from Matthew Chapter 7 vs7:
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find it; knock, and the door will open for you."

If you ask God for something with all your heart, he will give it to you when the time is right:D
Take JK3 for example, I know I will get it!

Homuncul
04-28-2003, 09:00 AM
I improve myself by answering posts? Ummm okay. And it is nice to tell me to keep moving when I said unless there was some better material in here I would not post.

And there was. That's why you answered.

Now I don't have problem if you people do not believe in God, but what will happen when you die? Will everything go on just like it was before you were concieved? Maybe, but your souls will go to hell (don't mean to be harsh, though it is true). God is a kind and loving God, and one way he shows his love is through miracles.

I thought miracles were for convincing of his divine existence because people just love to forget about him
Death is said to be uncurable inhereted desease and vital part of life. And if you consider death holiday and vacation enough as I do you would only think of it as a right thing. And life's too short to think about and prepare yourself for what's gonna be after it. Although I believe in God and consider myself righteous enough.
Heard some people talking about their close people death. That it was like the soul were going off the body and person was loosing his life. I don't know how our life ends. I'm sure it's something like falling asleep and nothing else.
Every day you woke up in your future. You are not the one you were a day before. So it somehow feels like rebirth or simply birth. The same with death it's like you can't stop falling asleep and that's it. Just when you fall asleep and not die you start to see dreams (guard mechanism of your mind). When you die you don't have time to see them. And hell is like for kids to structure their moral views which are required to live in a civilized society

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find it; knock, and the door will open for you."

That's what I love in biblical quotes. They are just so free for interpreting that I could say that it looks like an instruction of your behavior on the airplane in the section of toilet search (chapter 7 vs. 7).

Izzy
04-28-2003, 09:51 AM
Are you a christian Homuncul? Cool if you are. In reply to wot said, though this life may be short, the next one is going to be for eternity. Now, would you prefer to be joyful in the Kingdom of God, enjoying everything and do lots of awesome stuff? Or do you choose the torture and hardship and pain and suffering of hell? Its for eternity, so you'd better decide!
I personally choose the riches of Heaven.

C'jais
04-28-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Homuncul
And life's too short to think about and prepare yourself for what's gonna be after it. Although I believe in God and consider myself righteous enough.
Heard some people talking about their close people death. That it was like the soul were going off the body and person was loosing his life. I don't know how our life ends. I'm sure it's something like falling asleep and nothing else.
Every day you woke up in your future. You are not the one you were a day before. So it somehow feels like rebirth or simply birth. The same with death it's like you can't stop falling asleep and that's it. Just when you fall asleep and not die you start to see dreams (guard mechanism of your mind). When you die you don't have time to see them. And hell is like for kids to structure their moral views which are required to live in a civilized society

So much explanation for simply going to bed! ;)

Yeh, I agree.

What's with dreams again? How are they guard mechanisms?

That's what I love in biblical quotes. They are just so free for interpreting that I could say that it looks like an instruction of your behavior on the airplane in the section of toilet search (chapter 7 vs. 7).

ROFL! Right on, man.

munik
04-29-2003, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by Izzy
Now, would you prefer to be joyful in the Kingdom of God, enjoying everything and do lots of awesome stuff? Or do you choose the torture and hardship and pain and suffering of hell? Better to reign in hell then serve in heaven.

I would rather spend eternity sucking satans greasy dick then buddying up to god just because he threatens me to do it.

Darth Zanatos
04-29-2003, 02:05 AM
Munik, that's sad.

But anyway, I think this is a great discussion and it is a great way to talk to people about Christianity.

I'm a Christian, and it means you have accepted Jesus into your heart and asked God to forgive your sins. Then you do God's Will(that's not a bad thing you people who think we're wasting time) and do that by praying and reading the Bible for guidance.

munik
04-29-2003, 02:23 AM
I think it's sad that you would desire to spend eternity as the lapdog of a being who created you just to do what he told you to do, because if you don't you will get punished. god tells you this, yet you still choose him.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really buy into this crap. When I die, I'm not going to hell, or heaven for that matter. Just gonna be gone.

Homuncul
04-29-2003, 03:11 AM
izzy:
Are you a christian Homuncul? Cool if you are. In reply to wot said, though this life may be short, the next one is going to be for eternity. Now, would you prefer to be joyful in the Kingdom of God, enjoying everything and do lots of awesome stuff? Or do you choose the torture and hardship and pain and suffering of hell? Its for eternity, so you'd better decide!
I personally choose the riches of Heaven.

How greedy you are? (about riches of Heaven)
I don't know if I'm christian it depends on how you see a christian. If you see the person who was christened and had a good religious upbringing then I'm a christian. If you call that one for his beliefs in Holy Bible then I'm far from it.
About eternity: I can hardly imagine eternity. For me it's like instance and whole time of our universe at the same time.
I decide to take knowledge of this world first than I'll take of Heaven or Hell (wherever I'm going). I am joyful because I live in a beautiful world with lots of awesome stuff in it and I'm not going to become dull and serious and forget about everything only to think about my salvation and my future joy. I see wonders of this realm and I want to understand them first before moving to another level. I'll take my punishment for it. You could say then that I don't know what punishment and flames of Hell are but neither do you. Greed is a sin and our nature. If not in absurd amounts I agree living with it and with any other sin.

C'jais
04-29-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Darth Zanatos
I'm a Christian, and it means you have accepted Jesus into your heart and asked God to forgive your sins. Then you do God's Will(that's not a bad thing you people who think we're wasting time) and do that by praying and reading the Bible for guidance.

So going to heaven is just about knowing the right people, rather than doing the right thing?

I can't believe that's what's referred to as "just and fair".

Darth Zanatos
04-29-2003, 09:45 PM
No. I also said that "do God's will" which is doing the right thing.

Kain
04-29-2003, 09:53 PM
okay, I'll make everyone a promise. When God shows himself to me, I see an angel, or I shake hands with Christ, I'll convert. Until then, the whole omnipotent being is, well, bull.

Izzy
04-30-2003, 06:42 AM
Hey Darth Zanatos,
Why don't we pray for MydnightPsion and munik...

ShockV1.89
04-30-2003, 08:22 AM
Hmph. I'm not heathen enough to warrent prayers for me? ;) I'll have to work harder.

Actually, my girlfriend prays for me every night. She's a born-again christian. These discussions are nothing new to me. Her and I have talked for hours upon hours about this. One of the major justifications she cites for her faith is the feeling she gets from it.

I might be able to explain this away through psychology, but I dont bother. I mean, it's making her happy. It makes people happy. I cant oppose this, even if they might be made to feel happy by something other than what they think it is.

People use what they want to feel happy. As long as you're not hurting yourself or forcing it on others, I have no problem with it. Just dont tell me I'm wrong for using mine.

C'jais
04-30-2003, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
I might be able to explain this away through psychology, but I dont bother. I mean, it's making her happy. It makes people happy. I cant oppose this, even if they might be made to feel happy by something other than what they think it is.

I'm with you.

It's indeniable that faith can truly work wonders on a personal scale. Some people need faith to survive, much in the same way that some old people need a dog to keep them company. I can't see anything wrong with this.

Regarding psychology, if we assume that religious experiences are caused by brain chemistry and electrical impulses, could it perhaps be that certain people might have the genetic disposition for believing more than others do? Could it be that our friends Izzy and Zanatos needs less of a "push" in order to believe than I do? And could it be that we could artificially create religious experiences and beliefs?

ShockV1.89
04-30-2003, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by C'jais
Regarding psychology, if we assume that religious experiences are caused by brain chemistry and electrical impulses, could it perhaps be that certain people might have the genetic disposition for believing more than others do? Could it be that our friends Izzy and Zanatos needs less of a "push" in order to believe than I do? And could it be that we could artificially create religious experiences and beliefs?

I bet some really, really deep sci-fi stories could be written on this subject. :D

But honestly, I dont know. I guess it depends on what people think a "religious experience" is. If you consider praying and suddenly feeling better a religious experience, well, that wouldnt be terribly hard to replicate. A simple increase in endorphins to the brain would make anyone feel better.

But if you consider a religious experience as one in which something miraculous happens (burning bushes, limbs growing back)... that might be harder to duplicate. That would require external manipulation of the environment, which increases the chances of people finding out they're being led on.

Kain
04-30-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Izzy
Hey Darth Zanatos,
Why don't we pray for MydnightPsion and munik...

Don't pray for me, don't feel sorry for me, and DON'T CONDEMN ME to your Hell. Your tools for keeping small children in line failed on me before, and that was from my own mother. YOU can't turn my beliefs into you or your God's favor. My mind is clean of faith and religious hub-bub. I don't condemn people because their different from me and don't share my beliefes, and I won't feel sorry for them, nor will I try to convert them by scaring them with eternal damnation.

Tell me, how can Christians be righteous if they stole half their book from a group of people they think are Hell-bound?

C'jais
05-01-2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
But honestly, I dont know. I guess it depends on what people think a "religious experience" is. If you consider praying and suddenly feeling better a religious experience, well, that wouldnt be terribly hard to replicate. A simple increase in endorphins to the brain would make anyone feel better.

Nope.

What I was thinking about would be the feeling of "being connected to your god". In this way, you could make many people religious by simply giving them a quick fix of this sensation. It could also help boost morale, and all that jazz.

However, there might be another use for his discovery...

Suppose we'd be able to develop a "cure" to these religious experiences?

C'jais
05-01-2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by MydnightPsion
Tell me, how can Christians be righteous if they stole half their book from a group of people they think are Hell-bound?

I think I heard someone in this forum say that all Jews go to Heaven per default.

Or something like that.

Kain
05-02-2003, 03:01 AM
well, if thats the case, then what about Muslims? Who read the same 2 books as the Christians and one of there own?

Wacky_Baccy
05-02-2003, 05:31 AM
Posted by C'jais
Regarding psychology, if we assume that religious experiences are caused by brain chemistry and electrical impulses, could it perhaps be that certain people might have the genetic disposition for believing more than others do? Could it be that our friends Izzy and Zanatos needs less of a "push" in order to believe than I do? And could it be that we could artificially create religious experiences and beliefs? O.o

Did you happen to watch a documentary recently about that sort of thing?

I only ask because what you describe is virtually what was said in the documentary I saw - and very interesting it was indeed :D

I usually avoid discussions on religion, but this one's a bit [a lot]more orderly than they tend to be, so I think I might read it through and then join in...

SkinWalker
05-02-2003, 02:08 PM
I've avoided this thread for too long now :p

The original question, posted by Man..54 prior to his announcement that evolution is science fiction, was "what is christianity?"

I see christianity as an affliction to most of the world. That statement isn't meant as a flame by any means, but in many countries of the "developing world" also known as the periphery by core nations, christian missionaries made their "mission" to educate the masses in what was the "correct" religion.

The premise for this may have been noble: "spread god's word to all the poor people of the world that haven't heard it so that they, too, have the chance to get into heaven."

Unfortunately, it assumes that their own cultures were broken. As Man...54 pointed out, there is a significant amount of christianity in Africa. This is primarily due to the missionary work that is still going on.

While these cultures were certainly different, they still had many of the same general concepts in their religions that christianity has: sets of morals and codes to live by, explanations for otherwise unexplainable events, provision of comfort to those who wonder questions like "what's the purpose? what happens after death?" etc.

From an objective, outside, non-religious viewpoint, the only thing that made the indigenous cultures wrong and christianity right was the fact that christian cultures had advanced more technologically.

Along with the missionary movements came colonialism by countries such as England, France, Spain, etc., each bringing with them their own brands of christianity. Many cultures were having a hard time accepting that all these "christian" missionaries actually disagreed with each other. The colonizers, of course, were only interested in making profit by taking advantage of the people and their resources, so therefore the missionaries made it possible to offere some control.

The empires that colonized countries in, say, Africa, were interested in cash crops and got the people to grow them. Unfortunately, cash crop agriculture has several problems: 1) soil depletion of nutriants; 2) replacement of subsistance farming; 3) making people reliant on the colonial system for food, goods, etc. 4) loss of pastoral tradition

The missionaries were able to offer two things that the indigenous people wanted. Neither was religion. Christianity was a trade for food and the ability to read. The influences of colonial powers over native people caused things such as famine since their traditional methods of subsistance were no longer followed.

So that's why I call christianity an affliction to most of the world.

Not because I dislike christians, I actually find many christian concepts fascinating and think it's interesting to hear christians describe other religions, since you can see how obviously they judge them through the lens of their own religions, even without realizing it.

munik
05-11-2003, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by Izzy
Hey Darth Zanatos,
Why don't we pray for MydnightPsion and munik... I'm curious, as I've heard such requests for prayer before, but what would you pray for? Unlike MydnightPsion, I do not deny christianity for lack of proof, but because I think it's retarded. If the rapture happened today, I would not convert. If jesus knocked on my door to deliver my pepperoni with extra cheese, I would not tip him. So, what would you pray for? For god to change my mind? That doesn't seem to make it any better, for the supreme being to alter those who dislike him.

This does not make me a bad person. I do not hate puppies, and I really enjoy things in life. I just choose to be my own master, because that is a choice I can make. Because I do not want to serve, especially someone as twisted as your god.

BrodieCadden
05-11-2003, 12:56 AM
"So that's why I call christianity an affliction to most of the world.

Not because I dislike christians, I actually find many christian concepts fascinating and think it's interesting to hear christians describe other religions, since you can see how obviously they judge them through the lens of their own religions, even without realizing it"

That is the most condescending sentence I have ever read. You treat Christians like you are a scientist studieing chimpanzees, nodding your head and taking notes and thinking "how wonderful and fascinating, but wholly wrong. I am glad I am so advanced in my thinking..."

I am getting quite sick and tired of the non religious (not all of you, just a few) pretending to have "clear lenses" through which they see the world. It is contrived rubbish. None of us see the world through clear lenses, that would imply that we have not been affected by any outside cultures and practises.

Being religious doesn't mean one sees the world through a jaded lense, and being atheistic does not imply that one is open minded and "rational". Nor is the opposite true. Generalising the "religious" and the "non religious" to certain behaviours and social perspectives is simply stupid.

"but because I think it's retarded...Because I do not want to serve, especially someone as twisted as your god."

Many if not all of the Christians in this topic have given you the courtesy of not calling your beliefs or lack thereof retarted and twisted: how about you return the favour? This is a place for intelligent discussion, not childish name calling and conjecture.

"If the rapture happened today, I would not convert."

Oh I think you would. You are giving yourself too much credit and not thinking seriously: If God came down to Earth today and called all to repentence, with rejection meaning eternal hellfire, you my friend would repent, I am sure of it.

munik
05-11-2003, 01:38 AM
Remedial Reading 101. I said "I think it is", which denotes the expression of my opinion. I did no childish name calling, just an expression of my opinion. If you took it as such, you need to invest in a thicker skin.

I did not make a half-hearted statement concerning the conversion to christianity. I don't really believe it in it anyhow, but if it were true I would not choose it. You can say that I will all you want, but if god were to come down herself and make the statement about repentence and such, I find that no different then reading it in the bible. A more correct statement would be that I would convert after I was burning in the eternal hellfire, and that would be true, because I would then believe the threat. But, it would then be too late, so it's really a moot point.

Just because god shows up in person to threaten me because the book isn't working, do you really think I would bend to his will then? He's holding eternal hellfire over my head, not an asswhooping, showing up at my door isn't going to change anything.

SkinWalker
05-11-2003, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by BrodieCadden
You treat Christians like you are a scientist studieing chimpanzees, nodding your head and taking notes and thinking "how wonderful and fascinating, but wholly wrong. I am glad I am so advanced in my thinking..."

You're only half-right. I don't think christianity is wholly wrong. I only think it's partially wrong. But that is my perspective, which, I admit, might threaten those christians who may have a sliver of doubt existing in their minds.

Originally posted by BrodieCadden
I am getting quite sick and tired of the non religious (not all of you, just a few) pretending to have "clear lenses" through which they see the world. It is contrived rubbish. None of us see the world through clear lenses, that would imply that we have not been affected by any outside cultures and practises.

All mostly very true words, however, some of our lenses are clearer than others. I don't subscribe to the notion of sending missionaries out to "developing" countries to impose my own religious beliefs on others. I simply accept that whatever convictions I might have, other cultures may have their own, both of which have equal chances of being correct. That isn't "contrived rubish", but rather logical and critical reasoning.

Certainly, I have my own culture and norms and I have undboubtedly judged other cultures through the lens of my own. On my first trip to the Middle East, I quickly noticed the differences in toiletry when using public restrooms. I found squatting over a hole in the floor and wiping with my hand and a hose somewhat repulsive... at first. I opened my mind and accepted that there are reasons for why they took care of business this way: Desert conditions mean less trees, less trees mean less pulp, less pulp means less paper, less paper means you don't waste what you have on your arse.

Originally posted by BrodieCadden
Being religious doesn't mean one sees the world through a jaded lense,

I disagree. Certainly there are many shades of jade here... I know a very many religious people who are very open minded, but only to an extent. I also know a very many religious (not just christianity) people who are very jaded in how they view the world. But religion definately affects how you see other cultures. If, for instance, you believe your own religion is the correct one (and some people do accept multiple "truths"), then you must therefore understand that the other culture and its religion is wrong.

Originally posted by BrodieCadden who Quoted Munik
"but because I think it's retarded...

I definately don't share Munik's view here. I respect it, but I'm starting to understand why people believe (in many things, not just religion) and the process by which people "learn" as they mature. Religion is far too re-occurring to be considered retarded, even though I understand that he did not mean the literal translation of the word, but rather the colloquial.

Originally posted by BrodieCadden
"If the rapture happened today, I would not convert."

Oh I think you would.

I doubt there's any danger of a "rapture" occurring... but that's my perspective. I could be wrong. If I am, I would gladly admit my mistake and seek favor of the higher power, but at this point in time, I see no evidence that would indicate a need to waste so much time involved in rituals and meetings. I have more productive methods of spending time with family and friends and providing to my community.

munik
05-11-2003, 02:13 AM
And the conundrum here is how do we continue to read well articulated material after the author describes the situation in which he wipes his ass with his hands. As funny as I think that is, sadly I too have had to do the crap in a hole thing. 'Cept I brought my own paper.

Retarded is just one of my negative descriptive words. Used liberally in my vernacular. Also, I'm curious as to what you meant by religion being too re-ocurring to be wrong/bad/whatever.

BrodieCadden
05-11-2003, 02:42 AM
SkinWalker, you are a very smart individual and we both argue our case to the point where neither of us can ever agree because we disagree on one very important point: I am a Christian man and you are not.

Our world views, social and cultural commentary and logical reasoning are much the same, except we disagree on one crucial point in the conversation and continuing the discussion would just run us around in circles, one being unable to convince the other of their perspective.

Unless there is some new point you would like to make I don't see a reason to discuss this much further. Good discussion.


Stalemate, mate :)

SkinWalker
05-11-2003, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by munik
And the conundrum here is how do we continue to read well articulated material after the author describes the situation in which he wipes his ass with his hands. As funny as I think that is, sadly I too have had to do the crap in a hole thing. 'Cept I brought my own paper.

:D :D :D LMAO!

Actually you begin to also understand the taboo about using your left hand for things like greeting others, eating, etc.!

The key is to make sure that the water works in the little metal hose first, but I often brought my own paper as well. The locals hated that, as it stopped up their pipes. Since they don't flush paper through the septic, the pipes of a much less diameter and with sharper angles then western pipes, which account for MOTS (Matter Other Than Sh*t).

SkinWalker
05-11-2003, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by BrodieCadden
Unless there is some new point you would like to make I don't see a reason to discuss this much further. Good discussion.


Stalemate, mate :)

Actually I was thinking some of the same sentiments (not just the ones I quoted) about your arguments. They are well thought out and make me consider my own perspective very carefully. I hope that I provided the same service to you.

BTW, welcome to the Senate mate! I look forward to seeing more of your posts on other topics as well (perhaps we'll agree on one or two ;) )

BrodieCadden
05-11-2003, 05:17 AM
"They are well thought out and make me consider my own perspective very carefully. I hope that I provided the same service to you."

You certainly did, and I think we have both walked out of this discussion more enlightened then when we entered it.

And thankyou for the welcome :D