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Pierre the Frog
03-09-2003, 12:51 PM
K, For the 14 days I've been in this forum, there has been about 6 different threads about religion. Let's make one about the lack of the same.

What do you thing is the main difference between Atheists and religious people?

What do we have in common?

What is the worst general trait the atheist have?

This is a dangerous thread to make, please lets remain civil, we all have feelings, using words to describe a group does offend the individuals in the group so I'll like to encourage everyone not to do so without backing up the statement with facts (mostly directed at some of the atheist - who shall remain nameless - that haven't been very good at this)

ET Warrior
03-09-2003, 02:14 PM
*crys because there is ANOTHER religious thread*

*runs away*

obi
03-09-2003, 02:54 PM
Atheists are people too. I know many nice atheists, and many mean christians. (ironic, no?)

When I assosiate with people, i do not look at who they worship, or what they don't worship. They can worship peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for all I care, because I believe in equal rights for all people.

El Sitherino
03-09-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by obi-wan13

When I assosiate with people, i do not look at who they worship, or what they don't worship. They can worship peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for all I care, because I believe in equal rights for all people. and thats why we all like you :D *gives obi a martini* thanks for saying good things about me ;)
i am an atheist. dont know what all to say except that.:confused:

Pierre the Frog
03-09-2003, 03:11 PM
I better say something to get this thread going:

I don't think religious people and atheists are that different, we all attempt to attract "followers" to our cause for their own good. The difference being that Christians (to give an example) wants us to convert to christianity so that we will have a nice after-life. Where we (atheists) want to convert people to make sure people actually live their life. Thus saving them from "bowing and scraping" for nothing (see this comment from the atheists point of view).

A big difference I feel, is that atheists aren't centered around anything, in contrast to Catholics for example where some focusses a lot on what the pope says and thus doesn't think for them self. That has produced some terrible tragedies, like the crusades.

El Sitherino
03-09-2003, 03:13 PM
uh i doubt that any atheists try to convert people. most atheists i know hate christians because they convert people

Kain
03-09-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by InsaneSith
uh i doubt that any atheists try to convert people. most atheists i know hate christians because they convert people

thats exactly what atheist hate. Converting and spending ones time worshipping something people have yet to prove exists.
Atheists*atleast, the ones I know including myself* will tell a Christian that his beliefs are bogus, give him several reasons why one all poweful being cant exist, and if the Christian renoinces his faith, his problem now, not ours.

Orignally posted by Pierre the Frog
What is the worst general trait the atheist have?


Is that your way of saying that all atheists are bad for one reason or another? Explain this

Pierre the Frog
03-09-2003, 03:28 PM
The general point of this thread, was for the christians and atheists to understand each other better. To maybe make the discussions less angry.

The "worst trait" part was an invitation for Christians to give a stereotypical description of an atheist (I've found stereotypes is a good place to start in situations like this)

If atheists really hate converting, why do several of them join in when a Christian creates a thread about God?

Reborn Outcast
03-09-2003, 03:57 PM
When I look at a person, my first reaction is NOT "Are the Christian or religious or and atheist?" I look at everyone equally BUT once atheists start trying to impose that my religion is wrong and that their science disproves my God, thats when I start getting angry. (Before anyone says, anything about that last sentence, it can go either way. If I was an atheist I would hate it if I was bothered by people giving me brochures to go to an event. That is not how Christians should be doing things) I TRY TO look at everyone equally because, otherwise I would either be a racist or one who believes that I am better than everyone else., which is wrong.


I don't have any stereotypes for atheists. I do however have stereotypes for groups of people like Gothics, punks and preppys (sp?). I am however, trying to get out of that stereotypical mindset.

Breton
03-09-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Pierre the Frog

If atheists really hate converting, why do several of them join in when a Christian creates a thread about God?

Imagine that you for instance love Lord of the Rings. And then there comes a guy and says Lord of the Rings is stupid, and gives "reasons" for this. Of course you would argue against this, even though he won't change his opinions.

RpTheHotrod
03-09-2003, 04:34 PM
I have a few athiest friends. In fact, one calls me all the time from another state.

They are normal people, many times.

I've met very nice athiest, and down right evil athiests. I've also met nice "religious people", and I've met some really mean ones as well.


Just like Republican vs Democratic. You meet someone, you became friends, who cares if you think two different ways when it comes to politics. In fact, you'd may not even know until a few months into your friendship.

C'jais
03-09-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
I look at everyone equally BUT once atheists start trying to impose that my religion is wrong and that their science disproves my God, thats when I start getting angry.

I generally only do this "if fired upon first". If I knew someone who was Christian, I'd never just charge up to him and start hitting him with my views. That doesn't work. Of course, if said person started using the Bible as an argument in discussions, I'd put it out to him. He can believe whatever he wants, as long as he understands the logical limit of an immeasurable being, and its impact on our world.

The other day two women from Jehova's Witnesses knocked on my door. The sneaky bastards saw me through the kitchen window, and I could see them judging me as some young, confused person, ripe for conversion, while clutching their little red bibles. Damn - discovered. I tried to hide, but figured they had me cornered, and I wondered how I was going to respond to them.
When opening the door, I thought about b*itchslapping them around a bit, when they tried to imply there was a God watching over me, but I ended up dodging the topic altogether by saying I had homework to do (true).

Now, I really wouldn't even begin to pick apart their preaching if they just accepted a "No" for an answer - and thankfully, they did. I was half expecting some zealous missionaries, but these two ladies took my answer with tact (I've a feeling it was because they couldn't deal with a person who said he didn't have time for it). However, if they should return, as they have done with one of my friends, I'll start getting the big guns out, but for now, I'm happy that I averted the situation completely.

In short: I have issues with religion, but not with religious people.

RpTheHotrod
03-09-2003, 04:48 PM
I also hide when they come to my door, lol.

Kain
03-09-2003, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Pierre the Frog
The "worst trait" part was an invitation for Christians to give a stereotypical description of an atheist (I've found stereotypes is a good place to start in situations like this)

soooooooo, why not give atheists a cheap shot at Christians and ask about a Christians worst trait?

El Sitherino
03-09-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Pierre the Frog
If atheists really hate converting, why do several of them join in when a Christian creates a thread about God? just like all people we want our say. plus we arent gonna go by without giving some stuff to our side.

ET Warrior
03-09-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by InsaneSith
uh i doubt that any atheists try to convert people. most atheists i know hate christians because they convert people

Ahhh, but atheists DO try to convert people, they just do it by pointing out the flaws in religion and explaining why they dont' believe in it. ;)

I also have atheist friends, and my friend i'm rooming with next year at college is agnostic. So....uh......yeah....I have nothing against atheists.

(I also hide when the Jehova's witnesses come.....or the mormons!)

It's funny, i have a friend who is mormon, but he's always making mormon jokes......kinda silly.......yeah.......

El Sitherino
03-09-2003, 06:14 PM
i think of conversion as blatantly getting people to believe what you believe. all i do is state facts and my belief and leave it at that letting the other person decide to continue their belief or to atleast think twice about it. i dont say i want you to believe this. im just trying to explain myself. i too am tired of those people going around asking you things about having accepted jesus christ as your personal saviour. ah once i got so mad i just yelled i can accept christ as my personal enemy.

SkinWalker
03-10-2003, 01:00 AM
Bah. Atheism's just another cult.


;)


Seriously, I don't consider myself an atheist.... that would mean that I would have to "believe" there's no god. I don't discount the possibility of a deity. I just don't see any physical evidence to support one.

The thing about religion for me is that I can appreciate the world's religions and even understand the purposes they serve. I can see how, in the early days of man, it provided explainations, reasons, structure, and hope (for eternal life... yada, yada....). I have respect for the beliefs of others and rarely dispute them unless I'm challenged to in the defense of something such as evolution. Or if the religious types attempt to "witness" me... (I'll send them home with bad dreams).

The differences between atheists and relious people? I think that most atheist types are typically intellectual types as well. Either they're well educated, interested in the sciences, or come from those environments. Many also have met with a failing of religion at some point in their lives, either personally or, more likely, conclusions they've reached on their own while observing society. Religious types seem to come from religious homes more often then not. They seem willing to sacrifice personal resources when in the public eye, but in private, they'd rather be selfish (just my observation... not necessarily an actual trend). Religious types also have a tendancy to share with everyone and expect that everyone feels the same way they do. I can't tell you how many times I've moved to a new town and had someone say, "have ya'll found a church yet?'

The things that atheists & religious types have in common? I think they both agree on what constitutes "good" and "evil." Religious types think that this is by devine province, atheists think it is merely social construct. Either way, certain things are taboo such as child porn, murder, etc. Other things are in a gray area, such as prostitiution, etc. Sure, religious types will say that its black and white, but the reality is that Catholics go to confessional and Baptists get saved on national television (i.e. Jerry Falwell).

I think the worst "generalism" about atheists is that they want to see the end of religion. On the contrary, many atheists I know have stated on different occasions that they could not imagine a world without religion. I'm not sure I disagree. I can't imagine 6 billion people having to make the transition from belief in an afterlife (i.e. heaven, etc.) that motivates their behavior to living for the moment.

Cheers
SkinWalker

C'jais
03-10-2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by SkinWalker
Bah. Atheism's just another cult.

While not a cult, they certainly are capable of presenting their views with as much zeal and conviction as religious people, which I am not innocent of doing.


Seriously, I don't consider myself an atheist.... that would mean that I would have to "believe" there's no god. I don't discount the possibility of a deity. I just don't see any physical evidence to support one.

When there is no positive evidence of gods, it's only logical to work from the assumption that there are none. In effect they don't exist, and there is no reason to beleive they do.

Working under this premise, you also imply that while there is no positive proof of boogeymen, monsters below beds at night, spirits, werewolves and dragons, they might exist, and we should respect those beliefs that regard them as real. It doesn't work for me, but it might for others.

I'll only view reality as something I can sense and measure. If we can't, there is no reason to even consider the possibility of it.

The thing about religion for me is that I can appreciate the world's religions and even understand the purposes they serve. I can see how, in the early days of man, it provided explainations, reasons, structure, and hope (for eternal life... yada, yada....).

Yes, but we don't have need of those social constructs and guidelines anymore. Well, "need" is a bit forced, but I hope you get my point.

The differences between atheists and relious people? I think that most atheist types are typically intellectual types as well. Either they're well educated, interested in the sciences, or come from those environments.

There's also another option:

They just don't give a damn.

Seriously, I reckon most agnostics and atheists don't believe in gods because their mind is on matters far more important to them. It's not because they've logically worked their way to the conclusion that deities are irrational, but I'll wager it's simply because they're lazy.

That's how it works in my country, anyway.

I can't tell you how many times I've moved to a new town and had someone say, "have ya'll found a church yet?'

LOL.

Sorry :(

I think the worst "generalism" about atheists is that they want to see the end of religion.

I don't actively want this, but I can envision it.

On the contrary, many atheists I know have stated on different occasions that they could not imagine a world without religion.I'm not sure I disagree. I can't imagine 6 billion people having to make the transition from belief in an afterlife (i.e. heaven, etc.) that motivates their behavior to living for the moment.

I used to say the same thing - I thought that people would always invent gods to fill some purpose.

However, I'm beginning to change my mind. I mean, with the advancement of mankind and technology, I can see a future in which religion is regarded as a thing of the past - something those poor brutes of primitive humans found solace in. Just take a look at Europe - it's western and northern parts are almost completely agnostic. And it's a trend that's spreading rapidly, if you care to take a look at the last century - whole countries have been left faithless in a matter of decades (generally speaking).

Although there will probably always be some last pockets of religious people, in the span of a mere millenia, I'll bet they'll either be rooted out, or reduced to something inconsiderate.

griff38
03-10-2003, 08:39 PM
Well, not really sure you asked the question you meant to ask. Huh?

I think (correct me if iam wrong) that you want to know the difference between those who are religious and those who are not. I have no religion but I am not an athiest either. I am agnostic, I do not deny the existance of god, i just have no evidence god exist. The absence of information is not proof of absence. In other words just because I cannot find any real evidence doesn't mean it isn't there somewhere.

Having got that out of the way I will answer your question, the biggest difference between the religious and the non religious (in my humble opinion) is the way in which they make descisions. Do you listen to your heart or your head 1rst? I listen to both but I always let the head make the important descisions.

I REALLY WANT to believe in a loving god watching over me, punishing the wicked and rewarding the good, providing for me and all my loved ones an eternal reward of peace and contentment.

But.............. I just don't believe it anymore. Sorry.

BigTeddyPaul
03-11-2003, 04:40 AM
Incredibly funny story about them Jehovah Propheys there C'Jais.

InsaneSith I thought you were a Buddhist?

I also like ET Warriors suggestion that aethiests do try to convert people in a possible not so upfront way by challenging the ideas of religions. I am not saying aethiests try to do this unlike most religions but rather it is a side effect.

The main thing that aethiests or people who are not of a religious background do which is bad IN MY OPINION is pressure me a little. I am 19 but a select group of my non religious friends do kind of try to help me out in drinking, smoking, and doing things with women. I am not saying all do BUT I have found it more prevelant in non religious people to do things that are more non-moral in the eyes of conservative people because they are not bound to a high powers ideals. (I am not trying to be diplomatic at all).

AGAIN I am not saying all religious people do one thing and all non religious people do another. Please do not be offended at this stereotype but you did ask the thing you perceive as the worst trait in aethiests.

BigTeddyPaul

El Sitherino
03-11-2003, 01:27 PM
i am. so what. why you ask?

dvader28
03-11-2003, 08:29 PM
I am an atheist. The main reason is that i believe that many religious young people (usually Christians, but i only say this because i have more experience with Christians than other religions) are only religious because their parents have said they have to be. They grew up going to church every sunday, and kind of got in the habit. Go into any Christian Teen chat room and say "I don't believe in God.", and you'll always get the same answers - ppl saying they'll pray for you and quoting bible passages. It always sounds to me like simple regurgitation.

Another thing that i find strange is the ritualisation of the Christian religion. If there is a God, what possible reason could there be for him wanting an altar boy to ring some little bells when the Communion Cup is held up? Would he care if it wasn't done? I don't think so, so why do it? It's just pretentious nonsense. Every week the same thing's are said, with the same autonomous responses from the congregation.

I used to believe in God, before i went to high school. I was christened a Methodist, but went to a Catholic school. Every week at Mass, you could go up for the Eucharist only if you were Catholic. If you weren't, you could go for a blessing. I never went for either because I couldn't understand why, if the Christian faith professes that everyone is equal, i wasn't allowed to go for the Eucharist. It's this type of contradiction that led me to believe that I'm better off believing in myself, and letting religious people look after themselves.

Religion would be fine if it wasn't for people corrupting it and using it as a means to their own ends. It's a last minute death-bed repentance for me...just in case ;)

ShadowTemplar
03-12-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by SkinWalker
Bah. Atheism's just another cult.

;)

Seriously, I don't consider myself an atheist.... that would mean that I would have to "believe" there's no god. I don't discount the possibility of a deity. I just don't see any physical evidence to support one.

Aah. My point exactly. Most atheists are just as religious as religious people (they believe that there is no god, whereas I don't believe that there is a god). Which is why preachers are so dangerous. The transition from one belief system is far easier than transition from skepticism to religion.

I do, however, call myself atheist, for lack of a better term ('skeptic' makes you sound like a conspiracy enthusiast), and because in my entire experience no religious person has ever been able to tell the difference between a skeptic and an atheist.

ET Warrior
Ahhh, but atheists DO try to convert people, they just do it by pointing out the flaws in religion and explaining why they dont' believe in it.

Depends on your definition of convertion. In my book conversion is the transition from one belief system to another (like the Atheist trying to convert the Catholic, or vice versa), whereas enlightenment is the abolishment of religion by spread of rational thought and mindset (and the dictionary agrees with the last term, though I don't know about the first).

Reborn Outcast
I look at everyone equally BUT once atheists start trying to impose that my religion is wrong and that their science disproves my God, thats when I start getting angry.

Like C'Jais, I don't initiate such debates (well, most of the time), though I am very outspoken against religion. However, if someone says something like 'everyone should be allowed to believe what they want', I leap to my defences, for reasons that are better kept out of this thread, but which you can easily find.

Although there will probably always be some last pockets of religious people, in the span of a mere millenia, I'll bet they'll either be rooted out, or reduced to something inconsiderate.

Unless the current structure of the world comes crashing down, and is replaced with a some degenerated, theocratic madness.

Religion would be fine if it wasn't for people corrupting it and using it as a means to their own ends.

Boy, have I heard that one a few times... Thing is that religions concentrate supreme power on too few hands with no division of power. That's the definition of dictatorship, and so it is obvious that it will, in the long run, lead to tyranny.

It's a last minute death-bed repentance for me...just in case

Lol. [blatant blasphemy]I reckon that there'll be time between the soul departing my body and having to be judged by God (based on studies of near-death experiences (no-one ever did see God, so I reckon that it'll take some time after the 'departure' to arrive at your destination (or rather I reckon that it's because ther is no God, but we're assuming that there is right now))). So there'll be plenty of time to start believing. Bingo, I'm saved. God will have to let me into Heaven.[/blatant blasphemy]

I am not saying all do BUT I have found it more prevelant in non religious people to do things that are more non-moral in the eyes of conservative people because they are not bound to a high powers ideals.

While I don't question that statistic, I believe that you have the cause-effect chain wrong. Atheists (and Skeptics) are generally drawn from the higher layer of society, because Skepticism requires relatively high levels of education (not here implying that religious people can't have high education, just saying that the proportion of Skeptics with a high education is higher than the proportion of religious people with a high education (relative to the number of members of the respective groups, not the number of people with high education)). Since Atheism is an off-shot of Skepticism, this proportionality would also apply to Atheism.

Surveys have shown that people with higher education and income hold different values (creativity, individuality, ect) than people with lower education and income (who typically hold such values as obedience, dicipline, law-abidingness, ect). While I could bitch for an entire thread about the prospect of degeneration of society because of this (highly educated people seem to forget where their education is coming from when they don't instill such virtues as diciplin into their kids), I believe that I have found your statistical correlation with a differen contingency. And one that I find far more plausible.

BigTeddyPaul
03-12-2003, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
While I don't question that statistic, I believe that you have the cause-effect chain wrong. Atheists (and Skeptics) are generally drawn from the higher layer of society, because Skepticism requires relatively high levels of education (not here implying that religious people can't have high education, just saying that the proportion of Skeptics with a high education is higher than the proportion of religious people with a high education (relative to the number of members of the respective groups, not the number of people with high education)). Since Atheism is an off-shot of Skepticism, this proportionality would also apply to Atheism.

Surveys have shown that people with higher education and income hold different values (creativity, individuality, ect) than people with lower education and income (who typically hold such values as obedience, dicipline, law-abidingness, ect). While I could bitch for an entire thread about the prospect of degeneration of society because of this (highly educated people seem to forget where their education is coming from when they don't instill such virtues as diciplin into their kids), I believe that I have found your statistical correlation with a differen contingency. And one that I find far more plausible.

Yeaaaaah. I meant to and was going to say that.

???

I am not going to lie and pretend I got all that the first time through. If I read that whole thing through and took my time I am sure I would get it but since I saw that you agree with me I am just going to leave it at that.

BigTeddyPaul

leXX
03-13-2003, 08:11 AM
When I fill out forms, I put Protestant as my religion because that is what I was bought up as, but that is not what I am in reality.

I am somewhat atheist but not quite. I believe there is an all powerful being that ultimately controls us and our destiny but I certainly don't believe that 'powerful being' is in the image of man, or an elephant etc etc. Ultimately I suppose I believe in something a kin to that of the force, it sounds corny I know but that is the closest example I think of. I believe that there is something binding us all together and keeping balance in the universe. My God is the universe itself in it's wonderous entirity.

Luc Solar
03-13-2003, 08:31 AM
Yeah...that's what happens when one grows up.

You're knowledge an understanding of things is vastly improved making everything that used to be simple and clear nothing but a big misty blur. :)

God ain't the kind old bearded gentleman dressed in white anymore. A pity, in a way...I guess. ;)

munik
03-13-2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by leXX
When I fill out forms, I put Protestant as my religion because that is what I was bought up as, but that is not what I am in reality.
That reminds me of something. I don't believe in god, but was also raised up to do so. I just faked it, to appease everyone. When I left the house for the Corps, one of the forms had a spot for my religion, to go on my dog tags. Knowing that when I would go home, the family would probaly want to see the tags, I decided on choosing a religion instead of none. I didn't want the fight with the family. So, just assuming that the church I went to was a Christian church, it wasn't called Protestant or anything, I couldn't figure out what to put. Then I saw the choice, "Christian, No Denomination". It sounded fitting. So when I recieved my dog tags, I was amused at the irony of the bottom line. It said: "Christian No". That fit the best.

SkinWalker
03-14-2003, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by munik
Then I saw the choice, "Christian, No Denomination". It sounded fitting. So when I recieved my dog tags, I was amused at the irony of the bottom line. It said: "Christian No". That fit the best.

Ha! Ditto! Mine say the same exact thing for the same exact reasons! Semper Fi, dude!

CagedCrado
03-14-2003, 08:52 PM
Atheists are like FRANCE!!!

El Sitherino
03-14-2003, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by CagedCrado
Atheists are like FRANCE!!! what?!?! you are an idiot.

BigTeddyPaul
03-14-2003, 11:13 PM
Joke time! Gotta love the French.

All people who like the French raise your right hand. Everyone who is French raise both hands.

I love that one.

BigTeddyPaul

ShadowTemplar
03-24-2003, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by BigTeddyPaul
I am not going to lie and pretend I got all that the first time through. If I read that whole thing through and took my time I am sure I would get it but since I saw that you agree with me I am just going to leave it at that.

Sorry if I don't make much sense, but this is a touchy subject, and so I want to slam all the possible disclaimers on my stuff... Just to leave nothing to chance, as some people here have an unhealthy habit of taking everything painfully literally.

When I fill out forms, I put Protestant as my religion because that is what I was bought up as, but that is not what I am in reality.

Lol. Fortuneatly I'm never asked to fill out that kind of forms... But if I was, I'd write 'Skeptic', 'Atheist', or 'Chaos Undivided' (the last one is mainly to say 'shove your formula, that's none of your business').:D

Atheists are like FRANCE!!!

What's the code for that 'troll' smily?

BigTeddy: We have such jokes in Denmark too, though we use mostly Swedes in the punch line...

ShockV1.89
03-24-2003, 12:47 PM
I always thought this one :rhett: looked like a troll, but I think it's just a Yoda smoking...

Lynk Former
03-24-2003, 12:50 PM
In all seriousness there is nothing wrong with who or what people worship or what they believe in. The only thing I do hate is when the thing that someone believes in hurts others in some way...

I am athiest. I don't believe in any god nor go to any type or church or gathering or anything. I have friends who are athiest, christian, catholic, hindu, etc. I choose to ignore peoples religions when judging them. I respect their religion, some people don't celebrate christmas etc...

u know this whole talking about religion thing is really big with you guys isn't it :D

ShadowTemplar
03-24-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Lynk Former
u know this whole talking about religion thing is really big with you guys isn't it :D

Well, you don't have to look hard here to find people who have been adversely affected.

BTW: Atheist or Skeptic?